Let’s face it: the vast majority of Americans are wanna-be elitists, and they see no problem with the cops sticking it to some minority as long as they perceive that they won’t be hassled. From a new McClatchy-Ipsos poll:
In addition, about 69 percent of Americans said they wouldn’t mind if police officers stopped them to ask for proof of their citizenship or legal rights to be in the country; about 29 percent would mind, considering it a violation of their rights; and about 3 percent were unsure.
That poll is not an outlier. A Pew poll released yesterday found that 67% of people think it’s fine if police detain people who can’t prove they’re in the country legally (that includes 55% of Democrats).
We like to laugh at the mentality of Medicare-receiving teabaggers carrying signs decrying “socialism”, but they’re just the tip of the iceberg. These polls show that two-thirds of Americans have the same “I’m so fucking special” attitude: “Nobody could possibly put me in jail for forgetting my driver’s license when I’m out on an evening stroll. That’s for the dirty brown people who live on the other side of town.”
4tehlulz
Am I the only one that saw 67% and that “That’s kinda low”?
I though it’d be in the mid-70s.
RSR
yup; it’s a similar sort of attitude that lets people think that some day they’ll be rich enough to utilize the ‘death-tax’ repeal
mellowjohn
shouldn’t the police have more important things to do?
El Cid
I’m always thankful that the Bill of Rights didn’t have to face a popular referendum, because it would never have won.
Needing warrants for arrests and searches? Nonsense, that’s liberal pansies tying cops’ hands. Separation of church & state? Why, how will we know what to do without God’s guidance.
This is not surprising at all.
stuckinred
This also in not unique to this country. People suck, get a dog.
c u n d gulag
The amount of stupid, unempathetic people has matacised.
Well, when you start saying you’re ok with torture, it’s kinda hard to draw any other lines, isn’t it?
Look, they figure, teh brown people should be happy that they don’t have waterboard kits at every DUI stop. Ah, but then maybe some white people might have their 3 martinini’s with a water chaser, courtesy of the police, And that would be bad. So, we’ll just stop at color converstion charts for the police.
That’s MIGHTY WHITE OF US…
kommrade reproductive vigor
Riiiiight. I have to wonder what percentage of the people polled believed the police would never stop them because they’re obviously a ReaLAMErican.
One hint might be in the report on the poll, which notes the interviews were conducted in English.
Tokyokie
But then as I keep pointing out to acquaintances who support this kind of thing, a driver’s license isn’t proof of citizenship. You’d need to have your passport or birth certificate, and I don’t know anybody who routinely carries either.
Lisa K.
@kommrade reproductive vigor:
This. And they have an excellent point. A cop is not going to stop a 55-year-old white woman driving a late model Rav4 down the street because, well, she doesn’t fit the profile.
LGRooney
I wouldn’t mind being stopped and asked for papers as long as I still have the right to tell the cop to “Fuck off!” and sue the PD for harassment if it goes any further than that.
MikeJ
Some of those people really might not mind showing ID even if stopped for no reason.
The first time. Of course you know that the same citizens are going to get stopped again and again and again.
My guess is that even the most hardcore of the “papers please” brigade would get tired of being stopped and delayed, getting everywhere late because they were stopped again.
And the first time that person is already running late and is being stopped for the fifth time this week, that person might get a little snippy with the cop.
And based on what I know about how cops refer to people acting snippy, that right winger is going to be in tremendous pain very soon after that.
MAJeff
I think we should be breaking down those numbers even further. It’s majorities of white Americans that are supporting this kind of stuff.
BR
Part of the problem is that most folks don’t know that they would have to show a combination of a passport and birth certificate to prove citizenship. (The former for picture ID that’s nationally issued and the latter for citizenship.)
“Would you mind if police officers stopped you to ask for proof of your citizenship, which including showing a valid passport and birth certificate? Under the new law, if you could not immediately provide such documentation, you could be detained until you could provide such evidence.”
Had the poll asked that – that is, actually explained the situation correctly – I think the numbers would have been a little lower.
satby
@LGRooney:
The point is you wouldn’t. Stopping you wouldn’t be harrassment, it would be their job according to the AZ law.
Michael
Maybe the glibertarians at Reason will do an article on this and tell us that while it marks a disturbing trend, you should still vote for conservatives because some strapping young buck on a testosterone high fueled by food stamp bought T-Bone steaks will steal your shit and rape your women.
c u n d gulag
Has it ever occurred to these moron’s, that if someone in a hold-up steals your drivers license, that one thing, and that’s bad enough. But, if the have YOUR F’IN BIRTH CIRTIFICATE, well, that brings a whole ‘nother element to the ballgame!!!Shit, If I’m an illegal, I WANT YOU TO CARRY YOUR BIRTH CERTIFICATE! When I have it, I can use it to document myself.
So, if this law goes through, those nice people working on your lawn, won’t just be working on clipping your hedges, they’ll be trying to clip your official documents, too. Comprende?
To my rightie friends, you don’t need to run both the hot and cold running stupid all the time. Just tap one at a time.
Hesus!
Nick
@BR:
and if the law asked “Would you support the law if you knew there’s a chance you could be shot” the numbers would be different too…but that’s not what the law said…the law said a driver’s license is acceptable ID because you need to be a legal resident to get one.
Nick
@MikeJ:
These numbers are because of almost unanimous approval from white people…none of whom would ever be stopped because they’re not “reasonable suspicious”
de stijl
@MikeJ:
I’d like to believe that a conservative is a liberal who’s never been been asked “Papers, please” but, face it, the 69%’ers aren’t going to get stopped. So they won’t ever have their empathy muscles exercised.
I “know” that many, many people are kind of sketchy when it comes to accepting people who are unlike themselves, but this poll just breaks my heart. Because now I know-know.
Wow. 69%. That’s really fucked up.
When fascism comes to America, it will come wrapped in a snuggie and carrying a universal remote control. These folks are our neighbors and coworkers and so on.
I’m pretty much a self-hating white guy and a self-hating American right now.
Hunter Gathers
@Nick:
If I’m an illegal from Canada, Ireland, or Eastern Europe, I’m breathing a sigh of relief right now. The illegals from the Ukraine that clean the floors at my workplace have nothing to worry about.
JMG
Selfish, cruel, clueless — that’s a society headed for great things. America to world “get off my lawn!” It would serve us right if some Chinese banker gets hassled by this law and goes home and dumps a couple hundred billion in T-bills on the open market.
kommrade reproductive vigor
@MAJeff: Yeah, there’s no break-down by race for this poll. However, if memory serves, a recent poll of people who know all about Driving While Brown think AZ’s law is crap.
WereBear
Of course they don’t know the ramifications; the poll doesn’t tell them, our media doesn’t tell them, and their friends and neighbors don’t tell them.
They hear from right wing sources all the time that “illegals!1” are ruining everything, and any law that doesn’t explicitly say it involves shooting toddlers would be okay with them.
On the subject of stupid, Slacktivist has been doing a great job of late, here’s a quote:
stuckinred
@de stijl:
f zappa
verberne
If they had polls in Germany, from 1933 to 1944, Hitler and what he was doing, was going to be very popular with the masses. Now when they started to get their asses kicked, they changed their tune. Gee, we didn’t know that Hitler was rounding up Jews and sending them to concentration camps, and killing them. We just didn’t know!
The American population is venial at best. If they had really voted their economic self interest, there would have been Democratic Presidents from 1932 to 2010; since that didn’t happen we know they don’t put much thought into their actions. They are basically stupid. Why anyone puts much stock in polls is beyond me. Most people will respond with what they think most people would like, not what they really thing assuming they really do have thought processes that work.
Xenos
First, they should outlaw land-line telephone polls. People under 30 don’t have them, and people between 30 and 50, with kids and high-stress jobs and such do not answer the phone when the pollsters call. This survey is an accurate picture of what people over the age of 50 think – no more and no less.
Secondly, if the Euro implodes or the Eurozone fractures then we can expect a new diaspora of Irish, Italian, Czech, and Greek tourists overstaying their their visas by a decade or three. White middle-aged folks will fit the profile of illegal immigrants quite nicely.
Hal
It reminds me of the Duke rape case, and how shocked so many white people seemed because good looking, well educated white kids had been falsely accused, and prosecuted. I remember one of the kids lawyers calling it the greatest injustice he had ever seen. Huh?!
Never mind the stories we hear on a daily basis of people being in jail for years, sometimes decades for crimes they didn’t commit. It takes a few months of hell for some well to do kids at Duke to really shock people.
Most people being polled are probably sure they will never be asked for their papers, and most of them are probably right.
Linda Featheringill
@c u n d gulag:
“matacised”
Metastasized
But it is a good word for what seems to be happening in the US today, and perhaps the rest of the world. I agree. The stupid is growing and is way out of control.
“First they came for the Jews . . . . “
Zandar
Gotta love Somebody Else’s Problem Fields in action.
As long as the folks getting pulled over, getting their economies wrecked by oil spills, and getting racially profiled at airports aren’t white folks from Peoria, it’s all good.
Because it’s Somebody Else’s Problem.
El Cid
@MAJeff:
What’s your point? What we need to do is work with these polls to make sure they keep out the ‘wrong’ kind of people.
koolfiltered
Does anybody else ever daydream of getting a law enforcement job and subjecting the people who vote for this crap to, well, this crap?
I know I can’t be the only one who occasionally thinks that maybe “average Joe” needs to get hauled in for driving while looking Canadian.
BH
I am thoroughly convinced that polls in this country should have no bearing whatsoever on public policy. The vast majority of people, regardless of economic status, are either uninformed or misinformed and lack a fundamental sense of empathy and consequence.
The notion that two thirds of people would be OK if a police officer were to approach them at any time and essentially say “I don’t think that you are a real American, so you need to prove to me that you are” is complete and utter nonsense. It would be intimidating, maddening, and humiliating. Period.
toujoursdan
But remember, a birth certificate or driver’s license doesn’t prove you’re in the country legally. There are many people who were born outside of the U.S. who are legal residents and/or citizens (and there are a small number of native-born Americans who have renounced their citizenship are are no longer legal.) And states like New Mexico, right next door, issue driver’s licenses to illegal immigrants. (From New York Times – para. 2)
So I would really like to see the response when they are told that unless they are native-born residents, and/or are carrying a passport at all times, they are at risk of arrest. I believe only 10% of Americans possess a valid passport.
Linda Featheringill
@Xenos:
Interesting thought! Maybe I should think about getting my papers in order!
mr. whipple
I don’t find this shocking in the least, despite hoping for better.
Just like post-911, if you scare people enough they won’t care if officials root their trash, emails, phone calls, cars and person.
After all, they have nothing to hide.
Jamie
Did any of these critters know that a state driver’s license is not proof of citizenship?
de stijl
@stuckinred:
Thanks, man. I appreciate it.
I’m not a big Frank Zappa fan, so I’m listening to my Jam / Style Council / Paul Weller mix. Actually, I put Going Underground on repeat for the last 6 plays or so. For some reason Weller always makes me feel better when I’m really bumming out.
I don’t know why, but that 69% really hit me hard.
Sorry to get all emopants on y’all.
El Cid
I’m actually pretty much convinced right now that as long as it’s not the 2nd Amendment, you could pass any sort of repressive law you wanted, and whether or not the Supreme Court tossed it out, there would be no substantive reaction or resistance.
Mar
Umm, maybe I’m reading this wrong, but doesn’t this mean that you don’t mind cops stopping to ask proof of your citizenship even if you get hassled?
I hate to say it, but as much as I’m against the Arizona immigration law, if it was tailored to allow cops to stop _anyone_ and ask for ID I’d be OK with it, and I’d expect to get hassled since I’m a minority. I don’t like being singled out, but I’m A-O-K if everyone gets the same treatment.
Linda Featheringill
Okay. So I had to look up la migra to find out that in this context it means ICE.
What? You think I should be smart or something?
John
@BR:
I don’t think this is right. A U.S. passport alone should be sufficient, as would, I think, a green card. With a birth certificate you would probably need picture ID, but a driver’s license would probably be sufficient. I’m not sure what naturalized citizens who don’t have US passports are supposed to do.
Breezeblock
Americans, on the whole, are about the stupidest bunch of fuckers on the planet.
jharp
I honestly hope that some Hispanic police officers detain a few teabagggers for not having their papers.
And as far as the poll. Good God we live in country of stupid asses.
stuckinred
@de stijl: Yea, I think you had to be there. Trouble Everyday was written right after Watts and I was a 16 year old kid in LA at the time so it, what do we say now, resonates with me! It also may be the first rap song pre-dating Blondie’s Rhapsody by about 10 years!
stuckinred
@jharp: And do the pachuco hop on their pale asses!
Hunter Gathers
You know what, fuck it.
Round up all the illegals and deport them.
These fucking crackers will go absolutely apeshit when a can of corn goes from 78 cents to 5 bucks in a month. Because all of us know that Real Amuricans are just waiting for those posh minimum-wage jobs picking your produce out of the fields to open up.
LGRooney
@satbyy: That’s exactly my point. The law in AZ is complete horseshit from an American POV.
@ Breezeblock, #41, I wouldn’t say stupidest but I would say laziest in their thought processes.
ericblair
@John:
You can drag around your Certificate of Naturalization in your back pocket. You know, the valuable document you probably should be keeping in a safe deposit box. Also, I’m sure every dipshit Deputy Dawg knows what a valid CoN looks like from their extensive immigration law training.
Ash Can
There were a couple of times in 1980 when I was walking down the street, minding my own business, and uniformed law-enforcement officers stopped me and asked to see my papers. It was in East Berlin and in Nicolae Ceausescu’s Romania. And it happened because I looked “Western.”
Just sayin’.
Morbo
Bring your grandma, your aunt, the idiot.
El Cid
I don’t think this is just an American attitude. If it were just a general question and not in response to some particularly hated repressive policy that people had thoroughly experienced, most people around the world would probably oppose basic freedoms.
Litlebritdifrnt
I said this the last time we discussed this. I am a legal immigrant, my husband is a US Citizen if we got stopped in Arizona I would be fine. I have my green card. My US Citizen husband would be SOL. This law makes me, an immigrant, more legal than a US Citizen. I called in to my local radio station last night and said that to the two RWNJ hosts and the light bulb went on over their heads (they had been cheerleading the law), they did not know that an out of state DL would not be sufficient. So the bottom line is this law gives a legal immigrant greater “rights” if you will than a US Citizen. I would have thought that all US Citizens would have a problem with that.
ksmiami
It has always been this way – we went to Romania once and were in this ghastly poor town meeting some people who lived there. They were dirt poor and living in the 14th century, but when we asked who lived across town their response was ‘Oh don’t go over there – you don’t want to hang out with those people, they are really poor and backwards! Same lesson applies here, as long as there are immygrants worse off, the fact that you have untreated emphasema, bad teeth and a default mortgage is okay cause yur still better than someone else. See Matt Taibbi, “peasant mentality.”
Persia
@El Cid:
This. Andrei Codrescu nailed it pretty nicely.
sherifffruitfly
Unless the poll breaks it down by race, it’s meaningless.
I can understand why the majority of Americans wouldn’t want to see that breakdown, of course.
jharp
I was stopped once for jaywalking in Hong Kong by a female police officer.
And I didn’t have my papers with me.
And I told her so. And I will never forget her asking me “are you refusing to cooperate with me?”.
She ended up letting me go on. But it scared the hell out of me. And she was only about 3′ 6″ tall.
Violet
I know that Latinos have been polled and they overwhelmingly do not support the law. Have Asians and African Americans and so forth also been polled? I’d be interested to know how strong the support is among various groups.
gmknobl
I lay this firmly at the feet of those who have cut education year after year. These are the same people who have fought to cut taxes to the rich and big corporations (and the rest of us as a side note to get votes) and have defunded government as a result. Therefore education gets cut along with all other social programs that benefit everyone. The claim is made after they are sub-funded that they don’t work well (no duh, since they don’t get the funding they need) and they get cut more since they “don’t work.” The result is poor education. Poor education means more people who don’t think. More people who don’t think means more uneducated, elitist attitudes.
There is nothing good about conservatism, even fiscal conservatism. Never has been, never will be. This is the fruits of their labor.
Violet
@Litlebritdifrnt:
US Citizens don’t get this. Just like the radio hosts you phoned. You have to spell it out for people for them to get it.
If Dems were smart, they’d be spelling this out every chance they got. But we all know how good the Dem messaging is….
Punchy
Can somebody please clear this up? Some of you saying the DL is not sufficient proof, while others are saying it is, according to the AZ law. Which is it?
TIA
daveNYC
Depends on the state it was issued in. If the state only gives out DLs to citizens, then it would be proof of citizenship. If the state only cares about driving ability, and not citizenship, then it wouldn’t count.
Breaking this down by race isn’t going to improve the results any. It’s freaking 69% of the population who has no problem with the cops asking people for their papers all 1980s Iron Curtain style.
stuckinred
Anybody here ever see the Federale’s operate in the Sonora? We we were camped on a beach at Guymas and some guys got their car stuck in the sand. When the tow truck came the fed’s came with it and they just took the car. Drive through their roadblocks and stare down the barrel of a 30 cal and you’ll feel quite welcome. Ole! (the fishin was great btw)
toujoursdan
@Punchy:
The law says that an Arizona driver’s license is sufficient proof. It doesn’t say whether an out-of-state license is. Given that New Mexico issues driver’s licenses to illegal immigrants the answer is probably “no”. Many states only issue licenses to legal residents, but I doubt that a beat cop demanding papers is going to know which is which.
The best standard of proof would be what an I-9 form demands but few people carry these documents around.
jharp
“Some of you saying the DL is not sufficient proof, while others are saying it is”
I know that an Illinois drivers license is not sufficient proof.
Other states? I don’t know.
Litlebritdifrnt
@Punchy:
From what I understand an Arizona DL is fine, and out of State one is not (because there are some States that allow illegal immigrants to get a DL).
de stijl
@Punchy:
Depends on the state and what documentation requirements that state applies to their DL issuing process.
Take this with a big grain of salt, but I read somewhere (probably on a blog comment) that ~10 states issued licenses that would not satisfy the AZ law.
aimai
@MikeJ:
This. A hundred thousand times This.
aimai
Nutella
This is why I REALLY want some enterprising Arizona cop to demand John McCain’s papers. We have reason to doubt he is a citizen since he was not born in the US and the birthers showed us that running for president doesn’t prove anything about citizenship, so it’s perfectly reasonable within the new Arizona law to demand his proof of citizenship every time he walks down the street.
A few dramatic cases of rich white men being detained until they hand over their papers (however ‘papers’ is defined for each person) would be useful.
pk
These attitudes will only change if an American citizen, of say Italian descent gets killed or badly hurt by thuggish cops. Most Americans it seems, actually need to be tortured to figure out that torture is wrong.
Citizen_X
The AZ cops aren’t going to bother memorizing the requirements for DLs from all 49 other states, they’ll just assume “Not AZ DL, not proof of citizenship.”
I hope they just start pulling over anyone with out of state plates who has a tan.
DanF
@MikeJ: My thoughts on this are similar. Two-thirds of Americans are OK with the police asking them for their papers precisely because we live in a country where police DO NOT stop and ask you for your papers. Two-thirds of Americans typically only have positive interactions with the police and have never once felt threatened by them – so sure, what’s the big deal? Here’s my driver’s license, have a nice day.
But the third or fourth time it happens, they’ll start to feel targeted. Why me? Why do they think I’m illegal? Are tehy after me?
I lived in a country where arbitrary police road blocks were set-up and papers were asked for. Those jokers were looking for a bribe to augment their crappy pay, but being an obvious foreigner, I was targeted more than the locals as I was seen as a person with cash. It sucks. I never once paid a bribe, but I spent a lot of uncomfortable time wondering what was going to happen next rather than getting to my destination.
c u n d gulag
@Linda Featheringill:
Thanks, I always have touble with spelling that word. I tried spelling it in my ‘Google Search’ and that’s what popped up. It didn’t look right, but I went with it…
FlipYrWhig
@DanF:
I think this is exactly right. You’ve got a critical mass of people who think, hey, I don’t do anything illegal or look suspicious, so if the police stop me for some reason they’re probably just doing their jobs, and I want to help them do their important work.
I still say the best way to talk about this law is to frame it in terms of _harassment_. But even then I don’t expect many people to be swayed. It’s been a long time since the creation of that “You don’t look like you’re from around here, boy” cop stereotype. I’m not sure it’s still active in white minds.
twiffer
i’m certainly not okay with it. nor am i okay with the mentality that thinks it’s okay. it goes completely against the idea we are a free people. the “if you haven’t done anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about” mindset is idiotic, as cops can find something you’ve done wrong if they want to.
Surly Duff
This response is unsurprising because it is a hypothetical that doesn’t affect anyone now. It’s similar to polls that indicate that people were willing to accept increased efforts and inspections at airports after 9/11, but changed their minds and started bitching when they had to wait in a line. I guarantee that if cops started putting up checkpoints within the United States to check identification of anyone they chose, regardless of ethnicity, you would never hear the end of how awful, demeaning, and pointless the checks are and that we are targeting the wrong people.
People are all for more stringent security measures so long as the security does not impact themselves.
sloan
Southern Strategy, meet the Southwestern Strategy.
I’d like to see a journalist go to an Arizona Republican meeting and ask the folks there how many agree with the law. And then ask them all to show their papers – because of course they would all comply with a law they strongly agree with, right? Right?
Or perhaps some ambush interviews would be in order for the good white folks who passed this law. How many of them are complying with it? My guess is zero. And what would their excuse be? Would they say they know they won’t be stopped because they’re white? Would they say they’re not worried because they’re powerful lawmakers who are above the laws they pass? They don’t dare tell the truth.
And I’d like to see the mugshots from the first thousand legal US citizens who are thrown in jail for committing the crime of not being able to prove they’re not breaking the law. Just a hunch, but I’m betting they’re all going to have brown skin.
And that’s the problem – everyone knows damn well that white folks aren’t going to get get stopped and don’t have to follow this law and that non-white US citizens will be thrown in jail because of this law. Everyone knows this. And everyone knows this because everyone knows this is about racial profiling.
I bet you couldn’t find one white person in Arizona who is carrying their papers right now.
MAJeff
@El Cid:
My point isn’t that we need to keep folks out, but that “Americans” is not synonymous with “white Americans.” The polling data show that Latinos and African Americans are overwhelmingly opposed to this legislation. The support comes overwhelmingly from whites.
Xenos
@toujoursdan: Yo can also add to that list people who were born in the US whose parents are here on diplomatic postings. Their birth certificates are not proof of citizenship… they have to be naturalized if they want to be citizens.
The only way to be sure is to have the State Department passport, or your INS ‘green card’, or your passport from another country with a valid visa in it.
chrome agnomen
@stuckinred:
trouble comin every day. yes! recognized that at the first line.
kindness
From what I’ve read, a drivers license alone isn’t enough paperwork in AZ to ‘prove’ you are there legally. I don’t know if they were expecting people have birth certificates with them at all times or what but that is part of the issue.
I tell ya, a good punk for the teabaggers would be to wade into the next Tea Party rally & start demanding papers from the white nuts there. If they don’t have what AZ requires, start making citizens arrests & watch them freak the hell out. It would make a great YouTube contrast moment.
sparky
i’m a native-born US citizen with no criminal record. when i travel inside the US i carry my passport. i have been subjected to enhanced airport screening and traffic stops more times than i care to remember.
jl
It’s all in Aristophanes, as funny. And in John Adams, as cranky.
Donald G
@sloan:
The flaw in that plan is that for the purposes of the law, possession of an Arizona issued drivers license is sufficient proof of citizenship. It’s those passing through Arizona from other states, especially the states that don’t require proof of citizenship before granting licenses, who are most likely to fall afoul of this law.
For this to make an impact, you’d have to target a group of non-Arizonan supporters of the law and rig the demonstration with people from the states that do not require proof of citizenship. As of 2005, ten states did not require proof of citizenship, those states were Hawaii, Maryland, Michigan, Montana, New Mexico, North Carolina, Oregon, Wisconsin and Utah. In the intervening five years, some of these may states may have tightened up citizenship requirements. At present, it is known that drivers from New Mexico, Hawaii, Utah, Washington and Maryland are still at risk of running afoul of Arizona’s “show us your papers” law.
ET
The problem with the fools who don’t mind think it would only happen once or twice. They would get fucking tired of it if it happened once a day, every day for the rest of their freaking life. And it would be that or almost that because they will look for the most obscure reasons to have legitimate contact because they fear being sued for not asking more people for proof of citizenship.
Saying that the police aren’t going to ask people of a certain hue because police don’t have the time to literally ask all, most, or even a fair sampling of the people they deal with every day with proof of citizenship.
daveNYC
For some people it is, and that’s the problem.
Lihtox
I think there’s too much attacking-the-messenger going on here: “They didn’t explain the circumstances. They shouldn’t poll over landlines. They should break their results down by race (as if white people don’t count). Polls don’t mean anything.” While some of this may be true, it also smacks of Republicanism– ignoring the facts you don’t like.
I don’t think that most Americans would want to carry a passport around with them at all times (and we’ve seen the outrage against national ID cards before), but if those being polled don’t realize that that’s what AZ law calls for, then it’s up to us (not pollsters) to explain it to them. We mustn’t assume that the problems with the AZ law are obvious; if all we do is announce boycotts without explaining the reason behind them (over and over and over again), then we’re just going to come across as angry hippies who support illegal immigration because we love Hispanic people (or whatever).
fordpowers
people are fucking retards.
I was just out at dinner the other night – and there was an older gentleman out to dinner with his wife – both with wrinkles and grey hair – she ordered a nice glass of wine and the man ordered a beer. The waitress politely asked for their IDs – wife pulled hers out as she probably took it as a compliment – but the man didnt have his as I think they rode their bikes to dinner. She wouldn’t serve him.
Needless to say the man was LIVID – screaming for managers and I literally thought he was going to break a plate over the servers head. Thats all just for a fuckin beer.
But I’m sure he’d be happy to risk spending a week locked up because of some water department supervisiors request that he verify his birth certificate….
frustrating.
Cerberus
Remember as context the fact that back in the 80s, Reagan and a large number of white people supported Apartheid.
At it’s worst.
An unfortunate number of my fellow white people have noticed that the days of their unfettered dominance is coming to a close and far too many of them are willing to support Apartheid-style means of prolonging that dominance as long as they can. I mean, what do you think “keeping suburbs safe”, “tough on crime”, and “the war on drugs” have been?
Papiere Bitte is just the frightened bigots of Whitetopia upping their game.
LD50
If you phrase questions right, I’m sure there’s no limit to the horrors polling would come up with. I have no doubt you could get a solid majority behind “Do you believe that only Good Christians should be able to vote in this country?”
sneezy
“Part of the problem is that most folks don’t know that they would have to show a combination of a passport and birth certificate to prove citizenship.”
That’s not correct. Many states, including Arizona, require proof of legal residence in the US before issuing a driver’s license. Under the Arizona law, a license from any such state is acceptable.
Calouste
@sneezy:
That only proofs that the holder of the driver license was a legal resident at the time the license was issued, not that they are still a legal resident at the time the license was checked. Visa expire. About half the illegal immigrants in the US were legal at some point in time.
Ella in NM
I wish I had a pre-Hitler’s Election poll of German attitudes about demanding proof from citizens of their legitimacy. They thought it was cool too, because it was gonna be those rats the Jews who would be picked up.
Really, all the academic research and published literature on the nature of authoritarianism in societies has just been a complete waste of university research dollars.
I have seen the enemy, and it is US.
Derek
@koolfiltered:
No, you are the only one. I wouldn’t do that goddamn job for three times what I make now.
DFH no. 6
@Calouste:
Native-born American citizen, living in AZ (since ’81). I have an AZ driver’s license (I’m looking at it right now — expires on my b.d. in 2015. Damn my hair is shockingly white in photos anymore). Got my first one here back in ’81, and have renewed it when required ever since (only thing I needed to get the next one was the previous one, along with a vision test).
I wasn’t even required to “prove” my new address some years ago when I moved from Phoenix to Snobsdale (just wrote in my new address on the renewal form) . I don’t remember what proof of residency I provided when I got my first one here almost 30 years ago, but I know it had nothing to do with my citizenship (in fact, I’m not sure I had to offer “proof” at all — just surrender my old Ohio license, IIRC).
So my AZ license is no “proof” of my legal status at all, let alone citizenship. Lots of people around here like that. “Newcomers” may have had to prove legal status to get a license recently (so I understand), but not people like me who have been here a while. It’ll be interesting when that fact dawns on everybody.
My bet is this bad law will be overturned on Constitutional grounds eventually (4th and 14th Amendments, so I think), but it will take a couple years and quite a number of hassled/arrested “brown” citizens and legal residents before that happens (and a third Obama SCOTUS pick would certainly help). If the constabulary try to show “no racial-profiling here” and end up grabbing up a few token white folk (such as moi) who aren’t adequately documented on the spot , that may hasten the day (probably not, though).
No excuse for the authoritarian mean streak in so many. Lotta people can just be evil fuckers sometimes.
sneezy
@Calouste:
“That only proves that the holder of the driver license was a legal resident at the time the license was issued.”
I’ll grant that point, but the Arizona law as written doesn’t seem to take it into account. It says that “[i]f the entity requires proof of legal presence in the United States before issuance, any valid United States federal, state or local government issued identification” is acceptable ID.
Note: I’m not supporting the law, nor claiming that its provisions make sense. But that’s what it says.