This is going to end badly:
The Israeli navy made its first contact with a flotilla carrying hundreds of pro-Palestinian activists and thousands of tons of supplies for Gaza shortly before midnight on Sunday, surprising the boats in international waters, according to activists on one vessel.
Israel has vowed not to let the flotilla reach the shores of Gaza, where the Islamic militant group Hamas holds sway, putting the activists and the Israelis on a high-profile public relations collision course. Named the Freedom Flotilla and led by the pro-Palestinian Free Gaza Movement and a Turkish organization, Insani Yardim Vakfi, the convoy of six cargo and passenger boats represents the most ambitious attempt yet to break Israel’s three-year blockade of the Palestinian coastal enclave.
My guess is that they’ll sink it, kill hundreds, and of course anyone who says anything about it is without question an anti-Semite. Because when you just don’t give a shit and own hundreds of American congressmen, you just don’t give a shit about a little bad PR.
EdTheRed
Does Sully have a Nostradamus Award yet? ‘Cuz if he does, you’re bucking for one here.
EdTheRed +5 (that you all know about)
BR
In other news, oh wait:
Breaking: Israel attacks Gaza Freedom Flotilla–2 dead
DougJ
@BR:
Shit.
Hunter Gathers
@BR: What fucking assholes. That statement officially makes me an anti-semite.
Corner Stone
Speaking of Blowing it…Nikita on CW.
Man I love her.
ellaesther
My twitter feed is just exploding with this story, and I do think it will end/is ending badly, but I don’t think the ships will be sunk, or that there will be hundreds dead — though there are apparently casualties, and possibly two dead. There’s a livefeed from one of the ships here, but it’s almost worse than useless to me because it’s in Turkish, and all that does is make me imagine the worst while I understand nothing.
Violet
Does this prove that Obama is the Antichrist?
suzanne
Oh, yeah, I can see nothing untoward about this scenario.
Christ on a cracker.
Does saying “Christ on a cracker” make me an anti-Semite, a blasphemer, or just an asshole?
soonergrunt
You know, John, I’m not a fan of Israel myself, but when you are surrounded by people who’ve sworn for a couple of generations to push your nation into the sea (and that’s the polite version) then you tend to take on a bunker mentality and the attitude that you are in a fight for your very survival as a nation. Especially after WWII.
That kind of thing tends to breed the attitude that whatever is necessary at the moment is part of the bigger picture of national survival.
When you see yourself as fighting for national survival, pretty much anything can be rationalized.
ellaesther
Though, hey, at least I get to say that I tweeted back on Wednesday that “oh man this is going to be so bad….” So, you know, there’s that. I’m prescient.
Brian J
Oh, my. Why hasn’t Obama done anything about this? First he lets the oil just spill into the Gulf Coast. Now he’s letting the Israeli military do whatever it wants.
Why won’t he cut the bullshit, show some leadership on the issues, and get everything in order? Does anyone have any idea?
handy
@suzanne:
According to Roman Catholics or Eastern Orthodox, Christ is the cracker, my friend.
soonergrunt
@suzanne: Well, speaking as a very lapsed Catholic, if you’d said “Christ is a cracker,” then you’d be a priest. Or an alter boy.
Either way, you’d stand a good chance of being in an uncomfortable situation.
Sorry. I had to go there. I’d have kicked myself later if I just let the easy ones slide.
scav
speaking of theophagy, I’ve got a very nice year of his blood as we speak.
ellaesther
@soonergrunt: I would say that your key word here is “rationalized.”
As an American-Israeli, I would also say that there is a very powerful strain of “how dare they” going on, and as an American-Israeli, I no longer care very much about my fellow Israelis’ perceptions — because they are so badly at odds with the reality. Israel is the military power in the region, Israel is the reason that millions of Palestinians feel nothing like the security that Israelis feel (and think they lack), Israel is the side with the power. As Uri Savir, one of the lead negotiators in Oslo and former head of the Prime Minister’s office once said, Israelis “may have been the first conquerors in history who felt themselves to be conquered.”
Here’s a really, really good piece by Israeli journalist Amira Hass: Lexicon of most misleading terms in Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and just for good measure, here is my own short history of the conflict.
Corner Stone
@soonergrunt:
I would’ve went with “uncomfortable position”….uncomfortable position for $100.
The Dangerman
@Corner Stone:
Speaking of uncomfortable outcomes, consider this poor Dude.
Violet
@ellaesther:
When you say this, do you mean the “how dare they” is being asked by other American-Israelis, as in how dare Israel do [fill in blank]? Or is this something that Israel is saying about the flotilla heading their way, that they just attacked?
suzanne
@handy, soonergrunt:
LMAO.
My Mormon friends have this hilarious picture of Jesus hanging up in their houses. He was apparently so white He’d get a sunburn from the radiance of His halo. To them, Christ *was* a cracker. Or what do they call it, “white and delightsome”?
Violet
@The Dangerman:
I have zero sympathy for idiots like that.
Jess Sane
Well, it’s okay if you’re
the Master RaceGod’s Chosen People.ellaesther
@Violet: Sorry, I can see that wasn’t very clear — I mean that among Israelis, there is often a very powerful sense of outrage that the Palestinians and/or their supporters would refuse to acquiesce to Israel’s demands and/or reading of history. It’s very Subject-Other/Victor-Vanquished.
scav
@suzanne: OK, it’s a bit early, but you’ve got the Internet for June! Christ is a cracker/
Mark S.
@ellaesther:
Yeah, I’m a little tired of hearing how spunky little Israel is just struggling to survive. They have nuclear weapons, they’ve got peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan, and they could have had a peace treaty with Syria back in 99 but decided to be assholes. Iraq’s not much of a threat right now, and even if Iran got nuclear weapons, I’m not so sure they’d use them to commit suicide. Oh, and they’ve got the sole superpower of the world practically falling over itself to support them.
Corner Stone
@The Dangerman: Now that’s what I call a sticky situation.
ellaesther
@Jess Sane: …and Godwin’s Law proves itself again.
Lord knows that I have been more than critical of both my Israeli and American governments in their dealings with the Palestinian people — but snarky “Israel = the Nazis!” asides are ahistorical and unhelpful.
Violet
@ellaesther:
Ah, okay. Thanks for the clarification.
It seems to me that Israel is a classic example of an abuser growing up to abuse others. I don’t follow it all that closely, and I don’t have a dog in the hunt (no ties to the region) but when I do try to understand it, it seems like Israel is full of “woe is me, we are so put upon” claims, but in reality having tons of US money and support, and then goes out and beats up on its neighbors.
I’m sure I don’t understand it very well. I’ll be the first to admit that. But as a casual observer, that’s how it comes across to me.
Gravenstone
@The Dangerman: I believe that qualifies as Darwinism in action, non-lethal (but just as effective) division.
Corner Stone
Are you talking about the State of Israel, or the State of BP?
scav
I’d diagnose the whole region as “does not play well with others.” My preferred option was always to lower the force field and let the calico cat and the gingham dog have at each other. (No, I’m not a nice person.)
asiangrrlMN
@Violet: Oh thank goodness I’m not the only one! I actually think if accidents like this happened to more people, maybe they would rethink their need to take a gun to Lowe’s.
@ellaesther: I have a classmate in Taiji who is very active in peace activist activities, especially concerning Palestine and Israel. I mentioned you, and it heartened her to know that there were American-Israelis who did not follow whatever Israel said hook, line, and sinker. And, while I can understand the mentality of self-protection, I think there is a point where a country has to look at itself and say, “What have we become?”
Jess Sane
ahistorical and unhelpful.
You’re right; the South African government before 1990 is a much more accurate comparison.
Quiddity
If it turns out to be true that the Israelis shot at and killed some on the flotilla, – which they currently deny – it will be another step towards more confrontation with others (e.g. Iran). I can’t read the situation from this distance, but the stance of the Netanyahu government has been semi-bellicose for months, so I’m not surprised by these reports.
It will be interesting to see what the neocons have to say about this.
Kyle
@soonergrunt:
Pretty much every nation that has committed horrible atrocities rationalizes it as “fighting for national survival”. Anyone can make up a justification – the question is, is it accurate or not?
Citizen_X
@The Dangerman: They never learn: You jam a pistol down your pants, you’d best be whipping it out* about fifteen seconds later along with the words, “Nobody moves, nobody gets hurt.” Elsewise, one inevitably winds up getting Plaxico’d.
*Yes. I went there.
ellaesther
Israeli radio is now reporting 10-14 dead. Just, you know: FYI, and all. We will all be much wiser in 24 hours – it will be worse, or better, than we’re currently being told – but, yeah. Good, it’s not.
@asiangrrlMN: Thanks for telling me – there are so many more of us than people realize…! Here are a couple of good links, if you want to pass them on to your friend as well: Peter Beinart, The Failure of the American Jewish Establishment , and J Street — of particular interest to me at J Street are the poll results that show that about 3/4 of the American Jewish public support a two-state solution, and about 2/3 think that America should engage in getting the sides back to the table, even if it involves putting pressure on them to do so.
ellaesther
PS Mark my words, there will also be violence today within Israel, and casualties among Israeli-Arabs and likely Israeli-Jewish protesters, as well.
soonergrunt
@The Dangerman:
He shot himself in the nuts. I hope the stupid son of a bitch managed to sterilize himself and hasn’t fathered any children yet. Morons like that just beg to be taken out of the gene pool.
soonergrunt
@Kyle: I didn’t say it was justified. Just that that is what’s going on. It’s damn hard to negotiate or reason with somebody who perceives their back up against a wall with no way out.
asiangrrlMN
@ellaesther: I also hypothesized (pulling it out of my ass, really), that it’s similar to the generational divide in America. It seems to me that the younger generation are more critical of Israel as our younger generation, for the most part, rejects the cultural wars of America. Am I reading the situation at all correctly?
Here is the website of my friend’s organization: http://www.mepn.org (Middle East Peace Now). She also recommended ifamericansknew.org
ETA: I should have read the links before I asked you my question!
Calouste
According to the BBC, the action took place 90 miles of the coast, in international waters. Obviously, Israel doesn’t give a fuck about how far this escalates. At least they could have waited until the 12 mile zone.
Martin
Can’t blame the Israelis. They probably mistook the flotilla for a US communications ship.
asiangrrlMN
@ellaesther: I just read the Beinart article. It was engrossing. educational, and enlightening. Thanks for linking to it. I just have to ask, though, Frank Luntz? Really? Is he the root of all evil?
cliff
Ooohh lookie lookie, jews acting like NAZIs aint that special.
anna missed
First Lebanon, then Gaza, now this. What a scumbag loser nation Israel has turned into.
ellaesther
@asiangrrlMN: Looking at the site for MEPN, I’m going to say that she probably knows all about my two links! But it always worth sharing more information, and as you say, the Beinart piece is really just so good. I would say that Frank Luntz is not so much the root of all evil, as the messenger. If you see what I mean!
@Calouste: One thing that has consistently driven me crazy as this story has developed over the past few days is the number of news outlets referring to “Israeli territorial waters” — the waters into which the people in the flotilla wanted to sail are Gazan or Palestinian territorial waters, currently blockaded (aka: occupied) by Israel. (Another thing that’s bugged me is that people — even the folks who, like me, advocate for an end to the blockade and the establishment of a mutually agreeable two-state solution — keep saying that the blockade has been in place in 2007. It’s been in place since the election of Hamas in Jan 2006 — it was only made even worse in 2007. But I digress).
asiangrrlMN
@ellaesther: I see what you mean about Frank Luntz, but I assign him more evil intent than just being the messenger.
The Gimp
@asiangrrlMN: The gleeful Messenger of Evil?
ellaesther
@cliff: Oh, for the love of God. Really?
@asiangrrlMN: No, you’re right. I’m exhausted and a mite punchy, and shouldn’t be obsessing about this right now, and I can’t stop. Every time I think that Israel has broken my heart for the last time, it breaks it again. I mean: 10-15 killed. The sheer idiocy of it is just overwhelming.
the farmer
#41 They probably mistook the flotilla for a US communications ship.
And almost to the very same date 43 years later.
*
FlipYrWhig
@soonergrunt:
There’s no reason for Israel to feel like they have their “back up against a wall with no way out.” They _build_ the wall, put _other people_’s backs against it, and _make sure_ there’s no way out.
Ailuridae
@Martin:
That’s just wrong. Funny but wrong.
@ellaesther:
I don’t agree with the NAZI comparison either and I was wondering where do you see comparisons to Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians? Apartheid era South Africa? The current treatment of Kurds in Turkey.
As for the generational thing its even more pronounced than you imagine. There is a noticeably more strident position from my Jewish friends my age (35) than my Jewish friends who are ten or more years younger. And its not the age as the older group was mostly radicalized by the time we were 22.
CaseyL
I feel bad for sane Israelis, watching these events unfold and powerless to do anything about it. But this was inevitable once Netanyahu was back in power: he’s the same kind of soulless bastard as Dick Cheney, and will do unto Israel as Cheney did unto the US.
Was it last week I wrote about how giving up on Israel was like ripping out my own heart?
It’s gotten a lot easier since then.
Martin
Of course, this is just Israel’s application of the Bush Doctrine, so we don’t exactly occupy the moral high ground.
the farmer
#53 Of course, this is just Israel’s application of the Bush Doctrine
Wasn’t the Bush Doctrine when Israel attacked the Liberty.
*
Martin
@the farmer: True, but the Liberty incident was a big misunderstanding. The Israelis thought the Liberty was a
MayanAmishThetanEgyptian ship.Ailuridae
@Martin:
I’ve actually heard the Bush Doctrine justified in reverse from neoconservative friends of me.. That after 9/11 we were under the same existential threat that the Israelis were under so we could use the same draconian methods they use.
TenguPhule
Uh, it was only 10 years ago that Palestinians went full out Suicide Bomber/Murder Spree in Israeli towns. I still remember the daily headlines with their pictures of the blown up clubs and ice cream parlors. I remember thinking we would have carpet bombed Palestinan towns to dust had they tried that on us. I doubt there are many families in Israel that didn’t lose friends or loved ones during that time and the emotional blow was deep and has never healed.
Hell, Sharon got into power again because of it.
TenguPhule
Well yes, when you have to bury thousands of loved ones in sandwich bags and have to listen to half the world bitch at you when you strike back against those who attacked you while at the same time seeing those same people send aid to those who attacked you, one could feel just a wee bit persecuted.
Martin
@Ailuridae: Wait, does this mean we need to one-up their pre-emptive philosophy? Maybe Obama should start torpedoing BP ships off the east coast. Kill two birds with one stone. Give the American public their pound of flesh over the gulf thing and ensure that BP can no longer present an existential threat to the nation.
sherifffruitfly
Sounds like about what would be expected, Cole.
Viva BrisVegas
You can always pick a point in the last 60 years when one side or the other is entitled to feel the more aggrieved.
Absolutely appalling, but what other options do the Palestinians have? However illegitimate terrorism may be, what alternative outlets of expression exist?
Israel hasn’t left any options for the Palestinians except to leave or die. Not all will leave.
Ailuridae
@Martin:
And there you go topping yourself with a Shylock reference in this of all threads.
TenguPhule
Blowing up the neighbor’s kid is not going to get the neighbor to the negotiating table, it just makes them want to kill you too. I remember there was actually a fairly strong pro-peace/Palestinian side in Israel right before the bombing wave started.
It dried up *hella* fast when the bombings kept on coming.
I remember revolving jail policy that Arafat and company ran, where they were dropped off one day and left out the next.
So yeah, Israel’s been letting more and more violent idiots into top office to blow stuff up and the only ones ultimately to blame are the Palestinians themselves.
Mnemosyne
@TenguPhule:
Which completely justified Israel bombing schools where they knew people had taken refuge.
Sorry, but no one looks good at this point. No one. Every massacre and murder has had another one in response by the other side. Palestinians kill Israelis; Israelis kill Palestinians, and I’m not talking about the IDF. I’m talking about “ordinary,” non-government Israelis going on killing sprees against Palestinians.
The only possible thing to do would be to send UN peacekeepers in and take over both sides, because neither one is willing to be rational.
JasonF
@Viva BrisVegas:
You have got to be kidding me. Whatever was done to the Palestinians, it does not justify sending some kid into a pizza parlor with a C4 vest to kill as many Israeli civilians as he can. (By the same token, the wrongs done to the Israelis do not justify their atrocious acts). We’ll have peace in that part of the world only when the players stop thinking “What other options do we have besides killing as many people on the other side as we can?”
FlipYrWhig
@TenguPhule:
Which side are you talking about?
Andrew
I can’t believe this,
I’m sorry but Israel have absolutely no fucking shame
Mnemosyne
@TenguPhule:
Those damn Palestinians, letting Baruch Goldstein into their mosque so he could murder 29 of them.
Note that this happened in 1994, six years before the Second Intifada, and it was only the worst incident. There were plenty of other freelance Israelis going around killing Palestinians.
What was that you were saying about the Palestinians being irrationally angry?
Andrew
news.com.au/breaking-news/killed-in-israeli-convoy-attack/story-e6frfku0-1225873618491
Link Added
FlipYrWhig
@JasonF:
One side has a wee bit of an edge in firepower.
Mnemosyne
@JasonF:
And yet you are justifying them when you only talk about attacks by Palestinians on Israelis and ignore attacks by Israelis on Palestinians. Here’s another one from just a couple of weeks ago.
Uloborus
To Ellaesther in general:
I was raised Jewish. My family is very orthodox. My brother just moved to Israel, for pity’s sake. I don’t consider myself Jewish, but it’s not because I don’t like the religion, I just don’t believe.
And lady, I’m pretty much on your side. From what I remember it was Sharon who moved Israel from ‘starting to relax’ to ‘fuck peace’, but since then the Israeli government has been so brutally warlike and oppressive to the Palestinians that even our neighbors (some of whom are Lebavich) are uncomfortable with it. And these are the ‘Well, I have to live next to the synagogue. I can’t DRIVE on Shabbas’ orthodox.
I understand that IN Israel there’s an enormous amount of division over the issue, but I’ve never been there myself – and whether they’re divided or not, the Israeli government’s policies have been absolutely disgusting for years.
I look forward to reading those articles you pointed out when it’s not 3am! Goodnight.
JasonF
@FlipYrWhig:
So what? As long as it’s viewed in terms of firepower, the violence will continue. If we had two sides that were actually both interested in peace at the same time, it wouldn’t matter how much disparity in firepower there was.
kdaug
Remind me again why I give a fuck about Israel or Palestine. (And please, mention oil).
Strikes me that we’ve got suicide bombers attacking our troops daily, a shitload of problems right here on this side of the world, and the Korea’s going toe-to-toe on the BIG WAR line (and our ante is in, folks).
So, gently, please explain the existential importance of the ongoing drama/bullshit dance in the Middle Eastern sands once again. ‘Cause I just ain’t feeling it.
TenguPhule
Err, no.
The Israelis are acting irrationally. Have been ever since the Second Infidada started. Can’t blame them for that.
It doesn’t justify the stupid shit they’ve done. But seeing as every time they try the peace process it seems to bite them in the ass, well, why do you expect rationality from them now?
Douglas
@TenguPhule:
“So yeah, Israel’s been letting more and more violent idiots into top office to blow stuff up and the only ones ultimately to blame are the Palestinians themselves. ”
Thank you. The “Israel = Nazi Germany” remark was feeling kinda lonely, so it’s great that you decided provide us with the equially retarded but opposite PoV.
Ailuridae
@FlipYrWhig:
And a history of using force in ways that are disproportionate to the threat posed by the other side. I would certainly prefer that those fighting the Israeli authorities would limit their targets to government institutions but I find it amazing that any leftist/progressive is blaming the oppressed while ignoring the very real oppression from the Israelis.
Josh
ellaesther, have you seen this Avnery piece? It reminded me of a friend who worked for Amnesty in the nineties and said that back then, the only countries you could count on to be impervious to public opinion of them were Israel, China, and the U.S.
Thinking about just one aspect of Tengu’s argument, I recall that the U.S. electorate didn’t respond to the terrorism of John Brown’s people in the same way; although I suppose you might make a case that the South African electorate did respond that way to the terrorism of the ANC. Not defending suicide attacks or anything like that, but suggesting that the Israeli voters might actually have some agency and not be the puppets of “the Palestinians,” whoever he is.
TenguPhule
Oddly enough, Israeli attacks on Palestians tend to get all the outrage and prosections.
When its the other way around, excuses along the lines of “its not their fault, it’s their only way to express themselves” seem to come up.
All the third parties seem eager to “protect” Palestinans by acting as human shields/sending UN forces in among the civilians. I have yet to see anyone calling for the same for Israeli towns in order to deter Palestinian attacks.
Jon H
BBC is reporting 10 dead.
Martin
@kdaug:
Because the U.S. has taken sides.
TenguPhule
Well for starters, lynching two unarmed Israelis soldiers who happened to wander into the wrong street and being delivered to the mob by Palestian Police who refused to enforce their own bloody law and order and then letting the mob get off scott free after videotaping the whole thing kinda does *not* strike me as the acts of the oppressed, more like a fucking den of scum and villainy.
Palestians sneaking into Israeli homes and schools with the primary agenda of murdering sleeping women and children in their beds does not come across as the actions of an oppressed minority, its comes off as a bunch of fucks who get off on killing people who can’t fight back.
So yeah, I can understand why the Israelis are as fucked up as they are. They did practice restraint for as long as they could while the bloodshed kept going, then simply said fuck it and started hitting back three times as hard.
Joel
This sounds bad.
I do wonder what the supplies are on this boat.
Haven’t read too much about this incident yet, so I honestly don’t know.
TenguPhule
I’m sorry, when did I ever mention I was taking your point of view?
JasonF
@Mnemosyne:
The sentence before the one you quoted talked about attacks on Israelis by Palestinians. Indeed, the whole point of my post was to call out someone who tried to justify the Palestinians’ actions.
And while I generally favor the Israelis in this conflict, I don’t think Israel’s hands are entirely clean. More generally, every Israeli and every Palestinian is an independent moral actor, and an immoral action cannot be justified by saying someone else acted immorally first. But as long as Israelis and Palestinians continue to use the others’ savage acts as an excuse for their own, the savagery will continue.
Edit: Sorry, it’s late and my reading comprehension is not at its peak. I can’t tell if you’re mad at me for ignoring things the Israelis did to Palestinians or vice versa, but either way, I can assure you: I am well aware that there is blood on the hands of people from both sides of the conflict.
Mnemosyne
@TenguPhule:
Since you have Israel prosecuting 12-year-olds as adults for throwing rocks at IDF troops, uh, not even close.
But I guess that since a mere 7,000 Palestinians are in Israeli jails, that justifies everything that Israel does.
Jon H
@TenguPhule: “Palestians sneaking into Israeli homes and schools with the primary agenda of murdering sleeping women and children in their beds does not come across as the actions of an oppressed minority, its comes off as a bunch of fucks who get off on killing people who can’t fight back.”
And how about when Palestinians kill Israeli children to use their blood in religious rites?
Oh, wait…
TenguPhule
Yeah, that damn Israeli goverment how dare it declare him a freedom fighter working for his people! How dare the Israelis celebrate his murder spree and pass out candy to strangers!
Oh wait….
Would you like to give the public Palestinian response to their bombing/murder wave? I can wait.
Ailuridae
@TenguPhule:
Its good to see someone who was such a pure, sanctimonious ass hole in the health care debate is a raving fucking lunatic who reads like Marty Peretz when it comes to Israel-Palestine.
That Israel is oppressing Palestinians is a clear, unmistakable fact. And regardless of what actions individual Palestinians take it doesn’t change the fact of the oppression that Israel continues to commit on a daily basis.. That’s, simply, immutable.
Look at the events of last night today. The Israeli government attacked a relief ship in individual waters that was trying to get around an illegal and immoral blockade it set up in Gaza. There’s no justifying that. It is simply monstrous.
Mnemosyne
And, hey, Israel is prosecuting their own reporters for treason, so clearly they’re the good guys here.
PeakVT
What on earth was the Netanyahu government thinking when they put this plan together? Live bullets in international waters? Why was that considered a better option than, say, fouling the propellers once the boats crossed the territorial limits?
It leads me to seriously wonder if the current government would use nukes against Iran in a first strike.
Martin
@TenguPhule: Progressives have a basic philosophy: responsibility falls on the party with power. That’s why we blame Wall Street for the fucked up economy, whereas conservatives blame poor black people.
Israel is the party with power. They’re responsible for leading the way here. They need to be the bigger agent. A great philosopher once said: With great power comes great responsibility.
So, yeah, most of the criticism will fall on Israel. After all, nobody is blockading their cities and ports.
Jon H
@TenguPhule: “Well for starters, lynching two unarmed Israelis soldiers who happened to wander into the wrong street and being delivered to the mob by Palestian Police who refused to enforce their own bloody law and order and then letting the mob get off scott free after videotaping the whole thing kinda does not strike me as the acts of the oppressed, more like a fucking den of scum and villainy”
I expect if two unarmed German soldiers had wandered into the Warsaw Ghetto they might have faced a similar fate.
maus
@TenguPhule: The entitlement is thick in this one.
Ailuridae
@TenguPhule:
No he was pointing out your point of view was equally stupid, just opposite, of those who suggested that Israel=NAZI. And, well, he’s right.
TenguPhule
Having read up on the area’s deaths by stoning, I don’t get your outrage. Trying to injure or kill a soldier waives your civilian right to not be shot. Legally they could have shot him and been within full compliance with the Geneva Conventions.
LanceThruster
Mah.Thu.Fah.Curse.
TenguPhule
In the middle of peace negotiations?
Yeah, how’s that Godwin working for you?
Jon H
From FOX News, who also claim 10 dead:
What a vile, nasty bunch. I bet Epstein was wearing a suicide belt.
Yutsano
@TenguPhule: Israel could end this tomorrow if they wanted to. All it would take is a mobilization into both Gaza and the West Bank and remove all the Palestinians to over the Jordan river/into the Sinai. The only thing really keeping them from doing so is the US would have to shut off the money spigot right then and every Arab country would try to take them out again. Britain fucked this whole mishegas up 60 years ago, and the US’s unwavering support isn’t helping. Both Israel and Palestine need to just STOP. Stop the killing, stop the violence, stop the denigration of both cultures, rebuild the Palestinian institutions, and take another path. But the ultra-orthodox in control of Israeli politics refuse to let this happen. And extremists are gaining power and influence in both Gaza and the West Bank. The situation will get worse if there isn’t an intervening event. Obama is too tied up in Congressional politics to really make any meaningful moves, which is why Netanyahu (didn’t he fuck up a government in Israel already?) basically told him to fuck off. Stop the AIPAC money train, get some common-sense policies in our American-Israeli relations, and stop the status quo. Or else Israel will get annihilated. But so will much of the Middle East along with it.
(apologies for potential tl;dr)
BTW Gaza blockade is illegal, and I’m on the side of the boat runners here. Egypt should be the most ashamed of themselves with that.
Jon H
@TenguPhule: “Yeah, how’s that Godwin working for you?”
Works fine for me. If Israel wants to avoid such comparisons, they should try not controlling everything that gets into Gaza, including banning the very dangerous substance coriander.
Mnemosyne
@TenguPhule:
I guess you missed the part where Goldstein’s grave has become a shrine for right-wing Israelis. But that wouldn’t let you claim that the poor, persecuted Israelis who go into mosques and shoot unarmed people are only protecting themselves, would it?
For every story you have of Palestinians behaving murderously, I can match it with one of Israelis doing the same. Every single one. And yet somehow you think the Israelis are justified in responding to violence with violence but the Palestinians are not.
One of us here is making excuses for the violence of their favored side, and it ain’t me. I think they’re both fucked up and they both need to be occupied by a neutral party. Do you actually think that if the settlements full of fundamentalist Zionists are cleared and UN forces take up occupation in the West Bank and Gaza that all Israeli violence towards Palestinians will stop? Before you answer, try to remember who murdered Rabin. Hint: it wasn’t a Palestinian.
TenguPhule
Or in shorter form “terrrorism has no effect on policy, because shut up, that’s why!”
Yes, the Palestinians are getting shafted. But a lot of that current shafting is reaping the seeds sown in the last big round of suicide bomber attacks from 10 years ago. Those new cruel crackdowns they bitch about now? Those got put up because everything else didn’t work. The attacks tapered off, but its still fresh in the Israeli memory. Guess what, all those kids and teens who watched friends and family die 10 years ago GREW UP and are part of the voting public there today.
Look at the events of last night today. The Israeli government attacked a relief ship in individual waters that was trying to get around an illegal and immoral blockade it set up in Gaza. There’s no justifying that. It is simply monstrous.
That would depend actually. If this relief shipment turns up weapons….well, it wouldn’t be the first time.
Ailuridae
I have always admired the Israeli government’s desire to tell outrageous whoppers but this might be my favorite yet:
The Israelis are claiming they were attacked
with knives, and they were forced to open fire. Which seems unlikely, to say the least. The activists were committed to non-violence, and were very careful not to carry weapons, so that their intentions would be unimpeachable.
Awesome. It is almost like everything they release after one of these disasters is some version of:
“We’re the obnoxious sociopathic little brother of the baddest man on the block. We’ll do whatever the fuck you want and you’ll take it with a smile.
Jon H
@TenguPhule: “That would depend actually. If this relief shipment turns up weapons….well, it wouldn’t be the first time.”
The Israelis would probably plant some.
Mnemosyne
@TenguPhule:
Well, at least now I understand why you have no problem with the IDF bombing schools full of refugees. I guess that 12-year-old is lucky that he’s only going to spend 20 years in jail since they had a perfect right to shoot him dead.
And I notice that you’ve forgotten about your claim that Palestinians are never prosecuted for crimes against Israelis so of course Israel has no choice but to kill them all. Are you going to revisit that or just pretend you never said it?
Martin
@PeakVT:
Bibi thinks he’s got Obama beat, that he can show up at the White House and Obama will slobber all over him.
We’ll see.
Ailuridae
@TenguPhule: ”
That would depend actually. If this relief shipment turns up weapons….well, it wouldn’t be the first time.
That’s an interesting bit of moral clarity you have there. I used to suspect you have a David Horowitz esque political transformation in your future. Now I am nearly certain.
Mnemosyne
@TenguPhule:
And the Palestinian survivors of the 2008 crackdown will also GROW UP and be part of the next resistance to the Israeli occupation. And the cycle will continue over and over again because each side will blame the other over and over again.
So what’s your plan, short of genocide? Because at this point, that’s really Israel’s only option if they pursue their current policy.
TenguPhule
And a pony!
Yeash, talk about simple minded.
It’s not just “stop”. It’s that there are a quarter million armed rightwing jewish settlers who don’t want to move.
It’s that the Palestinians pissed away any goodwill they had with Israel ten years ago.
It’s that Hamas is a fucking power player and they refuse to negotiate.
It’s that the Palestinians have been caught multiple times violating international prohibitions on using medical and relief services to smuggle weapons and fighters.
It’s that Israel’s populace has been scared hard right. It’s easy to disregard just how insecure they feel when its not your neighborhood the bombs are blowing up in.
It’s that nobody wants to peacekeep there, especially since the only way to do so would involve stationing in both states and none of the players are kidding themselves that the shooting would stop just because they are now in the path of the bullets.
Too much blood has been shed, too much hate is built up. At this point, it’ll only end when one side is dead.
micah616
@TenguPhule:
“Policy never causes terrorism, because shut up, that’s why!”
Or, “They hate us for our freedoms, now go shopping.”
LanceThruster
Btw, when I saw the headline, I first thought BP was going to finally deal with the Top Kill failure.
On the plus side, I think I know what happened to the Palestinian “Ghandis” now.
TenguPhule
So if it turns out they were smuggling weapons under the cover of international aid, you’ll applaud them anyway?
Can we wait for a more accurate report from the region first or is this just going to be folded into the storyline because it sounds good?
TenguPhule
They were all shot by their fellow Palestinians years ago.
Jon H
So why does Israel ban Gaza from importing coriander, but allow cinnamon?
Canned meat and tuna, but not canned fruit
Mineral water, but not fruit juice
Sesame paste (tahini) but not jam
Tea and coffee but not chocolate
And no plastic toys.
micah616
@TenguPhule:
Yeah, because every Palestinian needs to be punished over and over and over again because of the actions of people they can’t control. Fucking brilliant.
kdaug
@Martin: Who, exactly, has “taken sides”?
I mean, is this some cricket game (substitute other-nation-playing game that I don’t give a shit about as you will)?
I mean, really, what is our vested interest here? Why should we care?
This paradigm’s gone on too long. It’s not in our interests, it’s not benefiting anyone so far as I can tell, so why keep playing?
Fuck em, we got our own shit to worry about.
Ailuridae
@TenguPhule:
I have no doubt that the Israeli army will insist they had weapons on board. Again, they’ve already claimed they were attacked at sea with knives.
But for most of the reasonable people in the world the Israeli military has absolutely no credibility. America is an exception in that regard but sympathy for Israel’s policies have basically fallen off a cliff here in America as the cocoon of American media coverage of their oppression was burst by reliable international reporting that exposes their monstrous actions to the light of day.
TenguPhule
Ahem, leaving aside your lack of response on Palestinian public response to the suicidebomb wave, Read my posts instead of the ones you see in your head.
JFCNTZYM, you can’t be that stupid. The open jail door policy of the Palestinians to prisoners turned over to them by Israel was not a state secret.
Yes they did. Because the stupid fuck is violating the Geneva Conventions. There’s a reason they’re there you know.
TenguPhule
Yeah, because the Palestinians would never ever use false colors to hide illegal weapon shipments….Oh wait.
Peter J
I bet it was throwing knifes. And they threw them really far. If they hadn’t boarded the ship, one of the throwing knifes might have ended up in Israel proper.
mapaghimagisk
What a mess. I can’t stand Zionists who conveniently ignore the settlements and the ratfucking that they gave Lebanon.
I sure would have the same irritation with those who didn’t think Israel had a right to exist, but I haven’t met any yet. I guess I don’t run in those circles.
I’d be happy if the US cut its funding to Israel by three quarters over the next five years. Maybe fund our own schools for a change.
TenguPhule
Obviously being caught on camera throwing parties celebrating the Israelis killed was not one of their brighter ideas.
Ailuridae
@micah616:
Yeah, because every Palestinian needs to be punished over and over and over again because of the actions of people they can’t control. Fucking brilliant.
Again thinking its morally justified to oppress people n perpetuity because they responded violently to your oppressing them in the past is, simply, not a progressive world view. It runs against the very moral fiber of the progressive tradition.
TenguPhule
I’m sorry, what’s your peaceful solution to getting a quarter million armed rightwing jewish settlers out of their dug in fortifications without getting anyone killed?
micah616
@TenguPhule:
Are you really invoking the Geneva Conventions to defend Israel? Ever hear of Collective Punishment? You know, that thing you’ve been trying to justify up and down this thread.
Jon H
@TenguPhule: “Yeah, because the Palestinians would never ever use false colors to hide illegal weapon shipments….Oh wait.”
And Israel would never copy passports of innocent people from other countries in order to obtain false identities for Mossad agents involved in an assassination in another country.
Jon H
@TenguPhule: “I’m sorry, what’s your peaceful solution to getting a quarter million armed rightwing jewish settlers out of their dug in fortifications without getting anyone killed?”
A good start would be to stop additional building and the development of new settlements. And end the subsidies that support people who move there.
And, hell, remove government protection from them.
TenguPhule
Welcome to human nature. And the Palestinians weren’t just “violently responding” they were using the suicide bombings as a PRESSURE TACTIC on Israel’s goverment for better terms.
To put it lightly, it backfired on them.
PeakVT
@Martin: This tragedy is different than the humiliation Netanyahu delivered previously. This time the reaction by the Israeli government is so ham-handed and so disproportionate that it can’t be explained by reality-based power politics.
Ailuridae
@micah616:
Are you really invoking the Geneva Conventions to defend Israel? Ever hear of Collective Punishment?
The poster in question isn’t even attempting to be coherent or consistent in his or her outrage. I almost choked on my Rioja when the Geneva Conventions were invoked by a hard line Israeli supporter.
burnspbesq
@The Dangerman:
Works out perfectly. Anyone who would carry a loaded gun in the waistband of his pants with the safety off shouldn’t be allowed to pollute the gene pool with his kind of stoopid.
kdaug
@Ailuridae:
My point exactly. Why? I get the fee-fee BS (I went to Jewish private schools as a goyim), but isn’t time to get serious? There’s a lot on our plate as it is, and we just keep wasting time and attention on this one issue.
It’s time to pull off the training wheels. Once they’ve cracked their head on the sidewalk, they’ll figure out how to ride better.
TenguPhule
So we can have lots of dead Israelis to add to the body count?
Yeah, except you have at least a quarter million votes staring back at you not counting friends/family/supporters.
Welcome to democracy.
TenguPhule
Are you blind or just willfully ignorant?
In that particular case where a civilian is throwing stones a.k.a. attacking with intent to harm/kill at armed soldiers, the fucking civilian is in violation of the Geneva Conventions and can be shot without penalty by the soldiers.
micah616
@Ailuridae: Personally, I’m always gobsmacked to see people who claim to be progressives get caught up defending colonialism and apartheid. Very few would defend what happened in the America so stridently, if at all, but when it comes to I/P, some real ugly shit comes out.
TenguPhule
And this defends Palestinians violations of the Geneva Conventions and Articles of War…how?
“Look look over there!” is not a valid excuse.
Ailuridae
@TenguPhule:
Welcome to human nature. And the Palestinians weren’t just “violently responding” they were using the suicide bombings as a PRESSURE TACTIC on Israel’s goverment for better terms.
Again, that you think it somehow justifies the continuing oppression of Palestinians because the used suicide bombings as a PRESSURE TACTIC during negotiations is, simply, entirely inconsistent with the progressive world view. And its absolutely monstrous.
To use some similar language of your and other posters from the health care debate. Its a sellout of humanity that the US continues to prop up financially and militarily an oppressor nation at every turn while exerting no pressure whatsoever to force them to act humanely. Additionally we block any and all attempts of the international community to do the same.
Mnemosyne
@TenguPhule:
Considering that you’ve completely ignored the Israeli public response I’ve cited to Goldstein’s actions and to the actions of the settlers, I think we’re about even there, don’t you?
So therefore Israelis can shoot Palestinians in the street. Gotcha.
Funny how you keep talking about the Geneva Conventions but leaving out the whole part about “war crimes” and “collective punishment” and the responsibilities that an occupying force has towards the people they’re occupying. I guess only the Palestinians have to follow the Geneva Conventions, but the Israelis are exempt.
TenguPhule
You mean aside from the oil in the region where Israel isn’t at?
Because this whole mess is the result of Europe and American clusterfucks hand in hand with Middle East revenge feuds with an intermingling of Cold War hoohas.
Mnemosyne
@TenguPhule:
That’s what we keep telling you about Israeli violations of the Geneva Conventions, and yet you keep trying to get us to look only at the Palestinian violations anyway.
Ailuridae
@kdaug:
I can’t speak for Cole or anyone else but those of us who argue these points want the US to take a much, much more disinterested view of the Middle East at minimum. That’s the point of this kind of advocacy or activism. To make the US take a more responsible line in I/P.
Ailuridae
@kdaug:
I can’t speak for Cole or anyone else but those of us who argue these points want the US to take a much, much more disinterested view of the Middle East at minimum. That’s the point of this kind of advocacy or activism. To make the US take a more responsible line in I/P.
Tensor
Consider this: The Israeli Navy repeatedly warned the flotilla to turn back, or to dock in an Israeli port at which the cargo would be inspected and, if no guns or missile parts were included with the food and medicine, such goods would be delivered to Gaza. The flotilla refused, and continued to sail toward Israeli-controlled waters. The Israeli military could have sunk the flotilla. They did not so do. They boarded the ships, placing the lives of their soldiers at risk. Why? Because Israel is a responsible country. It applies the rule of law, is a democracy, and has equal rights for women. Gaza and the West Bank have no mechanism for, or concept of, any of these.
kdaug
Cut ’em loose. Re-route Israeli foreign aide to Gulf-coast cleanup, and let them start behaving as adults.
They want to make themselves an apartheid state and international pariah? Swell. Let’s see how 50-75 years in the “no friends” box works out for them.
Seriously, I’m not buying this “center of all the world’s problems” line anymore. There’s more important shit happening elsewhere.
micah616
@TenguPhule: I am neither, but apparently you seem to have forgotten a little “war” in Lebanon. You remember, the one where one of the participants dropped white phosphorus and cluster bombs on a civilian population in retaliation for a string of terrorist attacks. The war that killed roughly 1500 civilians and displaced at least a million more to avenge the deaths of 10-15. In any other situation, you would call that Collective Punishment.
asiangrrlMN
@The Gimp: I think you nailed it in one. Nicely done.
@ellaesther: I know. It must be so frustrating and heartbreaking for you. I hope you are sleeping now.
Hey, any front pager who is up right now (Anne Laurie), can we get an open thread, please? This one is wearing me out.
PeakVT
@kdaug: Our government has taken sides, like it or not. I certainly don’t.
kdaug
@TenguPhule: So we care about it for oil that’s not there.
Really.
I can come up with a dozen different scenarios where we can make it so we don’t give a fuck in 10 years. Ever again.
And I think a good portion of those are kind of inevitable.
TenguPhule
The rightwing makes a shrine of the grave somehow magically becomes the whole Israeli public? And this is after I quoted from your own wiki cite? If you’re going to play Calvinball here, you could have just said so from the beginning.
The Israelis had four options.
1. Arrest and Send to Palestinian authorities. (They let them out again.)
2. Arrest and send to Israeli jails (You object)
3. Just shoot him (You object)
4. Let them run around blowing up Israelis
Hmmm, what seems to be your preferred option….
Right, because when I point out the facts in a single case, this somehow morphs into the whole Israeli-Palestinian situation instead. And FYI, the Palestinians have NEVER followed the Geneva Conventions and Israel could wipe out most of their population and still be in compliance simply because their civilians have broken the prohibitions that seperate civilians from soldiers. But contrary to the popular narrative, the Israelis are not complete monsters. The Palestinians are still there. Had it been American run forces, there wouldn’t be an Palestinians left by now.
LanceThruster
At times it seems that our actions towards Israel are working so strongly against our best interests, that it would be akin to sending weapons and funds to the Confederacy during the Civil War in order to show support for states’ rights.
If the IKF (Israeli Killing Force) wants to murder people with regularity, can’t they at least do it on their own dime?
TenguPhule
No, I agree that was a complete Fuckup by Israel strategically, tactically and morally.
They shouldn’t have done it. But there was nothing the US could do about it, we didn’t have the moral high ground at the time. Still don’t really.
Ailuridae
@micah616:
One of the reasons the AIPAC crowd attacked Carter so forcefully in regards to his apartheid usage re: Israel is because, well, he was right. And for obvious reasons there wasn’t a whole lot of push back from the American left against Umkhonto we Sizwe even as they resorted to more conventional terrorist tactics at the end.
Jon H
@TenguPhule: “So we can have lots of dead Israelis to add to the body count?”
That’s up to them. If they leave, they’ll live. If they stay, they can fend for themselves.
Anyway, they’re the least sympathetic Israelis, tending to be arrogant, bigoted fundamentalists.
TenguPhule
The new harsh reality of current Palestinian life is the direct result of Palestinian actions and Israel’s response to them.
Any other major nation on Earth, upon being presented with such overwhelming evidence of public support by an enemy populace for terror attacks on their civilian populations over several years would have wiped out said populace to the last man, woman and child long ago.
Progessive does not mean stupid or unrealistic.
TenguPhule
Oddly enough, many people accuse Israel of using this strategy against the Palestinians….
Lysana
OK, so it’s after 1 AM. I’m overdue for sleep. But I read this thread and can’t get a song from 1776 out of my head.
And that’s about all I got.
micah616
@TenguPhule: It seems to me that if we shouldn’t judge all Israelis by the actions of a few, and I’ll quote you:
“The rightwing makes a shrine of the grave somehow magically becomes the whole Israeli public? And this is after I quoted from your own wiki cite? If you’re going to play Calvinball here, you could have just said so from the beginning.”
:then why don’t the Palestinian people get the same benefit of the doubt? I’ll quote you, again:
“The new harsh reality of current Palestinian life is the direct result of Palestinian actions and Israel’s response to them.”
Jon H
@TenguPhule: “Oddly enough, many people accuse Israel of using this strategy against the Palestinians….”
They’d leave but the Israelis are on their land.
micah616
@Ailuridae: Carter was spot on, as he has been since the ’70s in relation to energy independence. Had we listened then, many of our current crises would be non-existent.
TenguPhule
No, you keep ducking around the fact that Israel’s public was denouncing their fanatics while Palestinians were cheering and supporting their own.
Yes, its true the Israelis have violated the Geneva Conventions. Efforts have been made to hold them accountable. Granted that’s not easy since there are pretty much no trustworthy third parties without an agenda there.
But it is also true that the Palestinians have pissed on the Geneva Conventions, used it to wipe their ass and then set fire to it.
Ailuridae
@TenguPhule:
Any other major nation on Earth, upon being presented with such overwhelming evidence of public support by an enemy populace for terror attacks on their civilian populations over several years would have wiped out said populace to the last man, woman and child long ago.
Err bullshit. Britain was confronted with a similar wave of far less justifiable terrorism from the IRA and did no such thing.
Turkey similarly did no such thing in dealing with the PKK.
Look I have no idea where you tend to get in argument but I deal in a universe of facts. You can try to just make shit up out of whole cloth but, yeah, I am going to point out you’re lying.
TenguPhule
Because unlike the Israeli public who polled overwhelmingly AGAINST the violence, the Palestinian Public polled overwhelming FOR the violence to continue.
Those Palestinians who tried peacemaking ended up murdered BY THEIR OWN PEOPLE as traitors.
gocart mozart
This will likely come back to haunt me when I am appointed Snark Tsar in the next Obama administration but here goes: The Israeli Likud government is behaving like a bunch of Nazis.
Mnemosyne
@TenguPhule:
A videotape of a mob lynching two Israeli soldiers has become the whole Palestinian public to you.
Notice how I keep drawing your attention back to your double standard where all Palestinians are responsible for the actions of every other Palestinian but every Israeli is completely independent from each other and can’t be held responsible for a guy from a Zionist group with an automatic weapon killing unarmed people?
Actually, I object to trying a 12-year-old child as an adult. But, hey, you think all Palestinians are responsible for the actions of all other Palestinians, so I guess that 12-year-old is responsible for Arafat’s actions and therefore he deserves to be tried as an adult for throwing a rock.
No, our own genocide wasn’t 100 percent successful, either. It didn’t make it less of a genocide because we let a few Native Americans move to reservations and live in poverty.
TenguPhule
JFCNTZYM, why don’t you just compare a South Korean Oil Tanker to the BP blowout while you’re at it.
The situations are in no degree comparable. Britain and Turkey consider the Irish and Kurds their people, not an enemy populace.
gocart mozart
Are you saying that the Israeli public is currently denouncing their own government? How did they get elected anyways?
Martin
@kdaug:
The US has taken sides.
Why should we care? I don’t know any longer, to be honest.
Martin
@kdaug:
The US has taken sides.
Why should we care? I don’t know any longer, to be honest.
TenguPhule
A videotape CELEBRATED by a solid majority of the Palestinian public and a mob ignored by Palestinian authorities is a pretty good description of a public, yes?
I object to the Palestinians using child soldiers, so what?
TenguPhule
Yep, a portion still is. Granted, they’re not in the majority because fear does funny things to people.
TenguPhule
No, I think the dumb fuck was eligible to be shot for violating the Geneva Conventions and attempting to become a Darwin Award. That he got off with a trial means that the Israelis have more mercy then others.
TenguPhule
I notice you keep ducking the point where I showed the Israeli public and goverment overwhelmingly denounced said terrorist using quotes from your own wiki cite and then asked you for the Palestinian Public’s response to suicide bombers. I’m still waiting….
Ailuridae
@TenguPhule:
Britain assuredly does not consider the Irish “their people”. Did you honestly just type that?
For 75 of the last 90 years the IRA was trying to take back by force Northern Ireland using terrorist means.
More to the point both the PKK and IRA had less legitimate cause in their campaign and none was subjected to anything resembling ethnic cleansing contra your assertion.
wengler
This is an act of piracy on the high seas.
The massacre of civilians and seizure of their vessel in international waters is a crime pure and simple.
On a realpolitik level it is the result of a series of very poor decisions by the Israeli leadership: first with the total blockade of Gaza, second the raiding and seizures of ships in international waters delivering humanitarian aid to a starving population, and third the massacre of civilians aboard a vessel full of people from an important regional power.
The Israeli government is attempting to fence off all its problems with walls and naval blockades. Unsurprisingly it ends up with lots of people dead and no real issues, security or otherwise, solved.
micah616
@TenguPhule: Oh, like Yitzhak Rabin? Or those 250,000 armed right wing settlers who can’t be moved because no one can think of a peaceful solution that will move them. Or maybe it just never occurred to you that the (non-linked) poll you referenced (but didn’t provide) comes from a mindset of people who’ve only seen oppression and violence.
By the way:
What you call a fuckup, most of us call collective punishment. The more strident (and honest) among us will call it war crimes. Nobody has clean hands, so you can drop that “We didn’t have the moral high ground at the time” bullshit. We don’t have it now. We’ve never had it, and we never will.
Stop. Excusing. Oppression.
Jon H
@TenguPhule: “Those Palestinians who tried peacemaking ended up murdered BY THEIR OWN PEOPLE as traitors.”
Like Rabin.
Mnemosyne
@TenguPhule:
Except for the part where the Israeli settlers can leave at any time and return to Israel proper but the Palestinians are not even permitted to travel between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank without permission, much less leave the country entirely, they’re exactly alike!
If I remind you a third time that Rabin was murdered by an Israeli right-wing extremist and not a Palestinian, will it finally register with you?
Israeli peacemakers have been murdered by right-wing Israelis. Israeli peace activists are being jailed by the Israeli government. But only the Palestinians are repressing their peacemakers, amirite?
TenguPhule
And that’s what the Israeli settlers say about the Palestinians. They stole it from the orginal jewish owners and they’re just taking it back.
So how far back do we get to trace who stole the land from who? Do we get to do this to everyone else too or is this just a special case?
TenguPhule
Yes, he was killed by an Israeli and it shocked Israel to its core.
Meanwhile, Palestinian peacemakers are murdered by their own and its not news because it happens so often.
Ailuridae
@micah616:
Stop. Excusing. Oppression.
(S)he can’t. Their position is plainly untenable. Post after post reads like someone who is deliberately ignoring the forest for the trees.
Jon H
@TenguPhule: “Britain and Turkey consider the Irish and Kurds their people, not an enemy populace.”
In Turkey it’s long been illegal for Kurds to speak Kurdish, along with many other things.
Mnemosyne
@TenguPhule:
Like fear of being jailed by your own government for speaking out against them?
You’re still not drawing the bright line between the actions of the Israelis and the actions of the Palestinians that you seem to think you are. In fact, they seem more and more similar the more examples that you bring up. So what’s your rationale for claiming that Palestinians are horrible, evil people (as shown by public opinion polls, of course) but Israelis who do the exact same things are just trying to defend themselves?
TenguPhule
They were considered part of the British Empire, British subjects.
roshan
Why didn’t they let the flotilla pass with just the rations?
wengler
@ TenguPhule
I don’t want to pile on, but do you think it is appropriate for the Israeli Navy to interdict humanitarian aid ships in international waters and kill people on board them?
gocart mozart
@gocart mozart:
O.K., I was going for shock value in comment #162. Perhaps a more apt analogy is that they are behaving like their former ally: Aparthied era South Africa.
TenguPhule
Yes, and they’re still “their” subjects/people. Why the hell do you think Britain and Turkey both fought so bloody hard to hold control over those territories?
TenguPhule
It Depends.
If it was a pure humanitarian aid, then no.
If it was a false colors operation for weapon smuggling, then yes.
Jon H
@TenguPhule: “Yes, he was killed by an Israeli and it shocked Israel to its core.”
If I’m not mistaken there’s a movement in Israel to have the killer released from prison.
Mnemosyne
@TenguPhule:
So shocked that the Israeli public gave the right wing even more power than before and have completely rejected the peace process.
Again, not getting the difference here between Israelis killing their peacemakers so they can continue fighting the Palestinians and Palestinians killing their peacemakers so they can continue fighting the Israelis.
Oh, and since this is so very common, do you mind finding a few names of the murder victims for us? I’ve given you multiple links to different stories to back up my claims and you’ve given me a quote back from a Wikipedia story that I linked you to. Not a whole lot going for you here other than your bare assertions that these things with no names or dates are totally true.
TenguPhule
Did they try to board and search?
We’ll see when more information becomes available.
Ailuridae
@TenguPhule:
So weren’t Americans at one point. And Indians. Nobody, but nobody, in Britain was making arguments in the late 70s and early 80s that the IRA were “their people” and should be treated a certain way. That’s just easily refuted bull-shit you made up. You have to try harder to at least approximate making sense. Its getting embarrassing.
Jon H
@TenguPhule: “So how far back do we get to trace who stole the land from who?”
If you want to go back far enough, and if you give credence to the sources, the evidence suggests that the Jews were kicked off their land, repeatedly, by God.
So blame him.
gocart mozart
@TenguPhule:
Can we agree on < 1000 years.
TenguPhule
Yes, let’s completely ignore the facts and come to the false conclusion! Never mind the peace process that started after the assassination as a result of Israeli support for the peace process increasing as a result of the assassination. Never mind that a majority of Israelis were supporting negotiations right up until the suicide bombing waves started and kept killing and killing and Sharon and the Likud promised a bloody and scared Israeli public security and vengence. The right took over because the left was fatally crippled by Palestinian bad faith and internal rightwing sabotage. But keep on pumping the faith of the noble oppressed Palestinians!
TenguPhule
You are confusing Irish with IRA. Again, the Irish and Ireland were part of the British Empire.
wengler
@ TenguPhule
This was a very well publicized humanitarian flotilla with several notable peace activists on board.
Disregarding the legality of the blockade, do you think it was an appropriate action to interdict and board a humanitarian aid ship with deadly force outside of territorial waters?
gocart mozart
Is anyone suggesting that this flotilla was armed? If it did not pose a threat, than Israel is guilty of state terrorism.
TenguPhule
And the FSM states that the holy writ of Meatsauce declares it’s all stupid.
Jon H
@TenguPhule: “Again, the Irish and Ireland were part of the British Empire.”
Not since 1949, with a large degree of independence since the 1920s. (Ireland, apart from the North, was neutral in WW2.)
Ailuridae
@TenguPhule:
So how long do the Israelis get to oppress and deny basic rights to the Palestinians based on that spate of suicide attacks ten years ago. We’ve already established it is at least ten years? Is it twenty? Forty?
Jon H
@TenguPhule: “And the FSM states that the holy writ of Meatsauce declares it’s all stupid.”
Tell that to the settlers.
TenguPhule
And this means absolutely nothing. The equivalent of the Red Cross was subverted by Palestinians for gun and bomb running. Having peace activists may look good, but its the cargo that counts.
Naval vessels are allowed search and seizure on the high seas in suspected piracy/smuggling. Also, outside of territorial waters, he who has the biggest guns at the encounter makes the rules.
Ailuridae
@TenguPhule:
I’m not confusing anything with well anything. You made a statement that anyone confronted with similar situations as Israel would resort to ethnic cleansing. And I’d be amazed if you could even cite an example in the modern western world.
And maybe you don’t know any Brits but no, none of them consider the Irish (or the Indians) their people. You just made that up as a back out of your absurd point again defending Israel’s unjustified oppression of the Palestinians.
TenguPhule
Well there’s this little thing called democracy.
When a majority of the Israelis are not scared/angry right leaning voters, then things will change.
Until then, this is the fruit reaped from what was sown 10 years ago. It could take another 10 to try for a different harvest.
wengler
It may have been awhile since I read my Old Testament, but I seem to remember a good portion of it devoted to the military campaign of the Hebrews against the Canaanites. So it appears that if everyone is playing the “I was here first so I own this place” card the descendants of the Canaanites should be first in line.
I’m guessing they are composed of both Muslims and Jews. Back to square one.
Ailuridae
@Jon H:
Not since 1949, with a large degree of independence since the 1920s. (Ireland, apart from the North, was neutral in WW2.)
Ah, the other poster is incapable of marshaling such facts. The claim that the British responded to the IRA attacks the way they did because they viewed them as “their people” is one of the most outrageously intellectually dishonest posts I have ever read here. And that says a lot given this place.
Jon H
@TenguPhule: “When a majority of the Israelis are not scared/angry right leaning voters, then things will change.”
They can’t even do anything about 250,000 coddled and spoiled settlers.
If they do stop being scared, they’ll be driven by arrogance, fundamentalism, and bigotry.
Of course, it’s only a matter of time before the Israeli Jewish Taliban types drive out the moderates who want to dress normally and mix men with women in public and listen to music.
Citizen Alan
@kdaug:
My understanding is that it’s because Israel has to reclaim all of the territory it held prior to 300 B.C.E. or so in order for Kung Fu Jesus to return and kill everyone in the world who is non-Baptist and/or to the left of Sarah Palin.
Jon H
@TenguPhule: “Until then, this is the fruit reaped from what was sown 10 years ago. It could take another 10 to try for a different harvest.”
Remarkable that you don’t see that the Israelis are doing a lot of sowing also.
TenguPhule
Yes, and none of the examples you cited matched up.
Not even the Northern Irish? Then why oh why did Britian spend so much blood and treasure holding onto a place it didn’t consider “their people”?
TenguPhule
No, I see it. I just don’t kid myself seeing where the fuckups are going to end up.
wengler
@ TenguPhule
You didn’t answer my question. I was asking your opinion. They obviously are ABLE to do so, as the body count has confirmed.
Also a ship’s presence in international waters doesn’t place it in a legal black hole. A crime aboard any vessel is usually subject to a number of jurisdictions. It will first be likely referred to the country in which the ship is flagged and then depending of the nationalities of the victims separate investigations and charges may occur. Any number of murder charges could come out of this.
micah616
To any interested, Haaretz is reporting 10 activists dead, 60 wounded. Two commandos wounded. The IDF was apparently attacked with iron bars as they tried to board the vessel. So, like the true class acts who only act defensively that they are, the IDF opened fire on civilians.
TenguPhule
No, that would be you pretending that the British were not viewing northern Ireland as a British territory and its people as subjects of the British Empire & ignoring that factions in Britain wanted Ireland the sovereign state back into the Empire. Also ignoring the whole inter-Irish fighting going on at the time too has to count for bonus dishonesty here.
Ailuridae
@TenguPhule:
If you are going to suggest a counterfactual that applies to a set of exactly one country Israel suggesting they are acting differently than other countries is, well, stupid.
Not even the Northern Irish? Then why oh why did Britian spend so much blood and treasure holding onto a place it didn’t consider “their people”?
But IRA actions didn’t have broad support in NI. They did in ireland proper and, no, Britain never resorted to anything resembling ethnic cleansing.
Again, you asserted that any other nation in the world when presented with its oppressed striking back via terrorism would resort to ethnic cleansing. So, yeah, we’re all waiting for that example to demonstrate your point isn’t hollow and unfalsifiable.
TenguPhule
Somebody does not realize the irony in their own sentences.
gocart mozart
@wengler:
Its a shame that that the controlling diety is not the Flying Spaghetti Monster. FSM is a personal friend of mine and I know for a fact that he would have apportioned the land fairly a long time ago, thus preventing easily avoided conflict all these many years. Sadly, too many people worship the wrong god. The system is rigged against him. We need Diety Marketing Reform if we ever what an even playing field. STOP THE RELIGIOUS INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX NOW!
Citizen Alan
@TenguPhule:
How much of the United States territory should we turn back over to the Native Americans? Their claims are a whole lot more recent than Israel’s claim to its pre-Diaspora lands.
gocart mozart
@gocart mozart:
I noticed that you didn’t respond to my rebuttal? Can I assume that you concede that your point was retarded?
joeyess
Well, they blew it out of the water.
what the fuck is the matter with these people?
Why does our government support apartheid systems around the globe?
gocart mozart
Shorter TenguPhule: Crow bars = M16’s.
I supposed if they had punched their Iraeli attackers in the face you would accuse them of being armed with fists and therefore a vital threat to the national security of the State.
Mjaum
Actually, I do not believe it matters what the people on board the ships were armed with. At the point where the israelis boarded the ship while armed they were pirates under international law. If the boarders had then been met with machine-gun fire, they (the israelis) would still be in the wrong.
Also, as a point… There is no law against supplying the palestinians with weapons, or against the palestinians aquiring weapons by any means, as far as I am aware. So even the discovery of weaponry aboard the ships would not make the israeli actions legal. Slightly more defensible, in a “pissing in the sea” sort-of-way, but in no way legal.
I could be wrong. That’d be interesting. And no, “because israel says so” is not an acceptable rebuttal.
Napoleon
It makes me so happy that so many of my tax dollars go to thugs like the Israeli government.
GregB
I blame the corpse of Arafat.
Alex S.
Who can actually get in or out of the Gaza strip right now? Hasn’t it become the world’s biggest prison?
Michael
@TenguPhule:
Am trying to figure out how individual Palestinians (being stateless and all for going on two generations) are actually bound by Geneva.
Anyway, your advocacy is leading me into a search for how to donate money to Hamas….
Michael
@TenguPhule:
Sweet Baby Jesus and the Troops – you’re as thick as Horowitz, and about as obtuse. You’re using the racist, tribal ramblings of semiliterate goatherds in the Bible as a deed that somehow supercedes the notion that this land was gobbled from the Palestinian families within the last 40 years?
Honus
@soonergrunt: Except when the reality is that there is no way anybody is going to push you into the sea, and hasn’t been for 50 years or more, and you have been and continue to kill them and their children, and appropriate their land.
Between this and the revelation that the Israelis offered to supply nukes to aparthied South Africa, and after 2 invasions of Lebanon, I’m not buying any more tickets to the “survival/bunker mentality” show.
Honus
@TenguPhule: c. f. Kent State University 1970.
Dave
What a surprise.
Post after post of anti-semitic conspiracy theories, accusations, memes and outright Jew-hatred.
John Cole, you’ve become the mirror image of what you were 8 years ago.
You must be proud.
El Cid
More Israeli politicians being assholes, pretending like they are brave little upstarts standing against the bullies of the world:
What consequences?
They mowed down the entire Gaza strip, and no one gave a shit.
What? Ambassadors will be withdrawn for a bit? Military exercises postponed? Israeli officials will vow to appoint a commission, whose findings if undesired will be denounced as being produced by self-hating Jews, like Richard Goldstones?
There will be no consequences for anything that the crazy warhawks in the mainstream of Israel policymaking EVER DO.
Fuck, the Israeli government could nukeSyria, Jordan, and Iran, and no one would lift a god-damn finger.
Oooo, yeah, the Russians and Chinese and Brazil would demand prompt action, and the U.S. would express its ‘profound concern’, Israel’s warhawk establishment and its U.S. right wing and ‘liberal hawk’ allies would scream about how dare the U.S. sound like it’s against its ally now that times are tough, etc., etc., and the U.S. would pledge medical aid to eventually go through the sanctions / embargoes placed on the nuked nations, meanwhile assuring that the decaying irradiated victims can’t flee to any neighboring states.
brad
Y’know, TengoPhule, the existence of the Godwin rule does not excuse people, or nations, from responsibility for using fascist-like tactics. To use a somewhat hyperbolic analogy, many, maybe most, pedophiles were once young victims themselves, but that trauma does not excuse the trauma they inflict on others. And yes, that also applies to Palestinians, tho Israel is making it literally impossible for a peaceful civic culture to bloom in the ghettos it has created. You keep saying “it’s their fault”, to which I say who the fuck cares. Israel isn’t at war with Germany.
Also, you might want to look twice at who was holding the guns that killed the Palestinian Gandhi types.
Dino
capecodonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100531/NEWS11/100539978/-1/NEWS
You’re fucking wrong; it was only ten killed. You anti-Semite. Anyone who doesn’t give Bibi a blank check is an anti-Semite.
Seriously, should the U.S. do something like an intervention? Can we get these dumbfucks on a twelve step program? Isn’t that friends are supposed to do to prevent self-destructive behavior?
The Israelis have pissed off most of Europe. How about we freeze the $2 billion in aid? This is coming from someone who promoted the important relationship between Israel and U.S. before his congregation (Reformed so maybe it doesn’t count) some twenty years ago.
Michael
@Dave:
Fuck you, prick.
El Cid
@Michael: Israeli Jews who hate their government’s policies are, of course, anti-Semitic, just like Americans who opposed the Iraq invasion & occupation are anti-American. Of course.
Ed Marshall
A former roommate of mine was on that ship, and I will be calling the embassy in Tel Aviv and demanding some answers. How in the fuck does an American get kidnapped in international waters by the military of a foreign government?
El Cid
Oooh. The President is now voicing ‘concern’ and expressing ‘deep regret’ for the Israelis blowing the shit out of an international aid flotilla. I’m sure this will lead to serious consequences, such as a sternly worded letter and reports of a heated meeting.
Ed Marshall
And what the hell is up with the American media response? That’s a top story around the world and here I see WaPo and the New York Times with a tiny little blurb that just has the Israeli response.
El Cid
@Ed Marshall: @cspanwj The U.S. establishmentarian media will express deep concern about the violence ‘on both sides’ and urge calm while Israelis investigate their own actions.
Ed Marshall
Damn, Cid, I bet you are right. This thread has people stupid enough on it, right now, that don’t understand how absurd the talk of a “fight” between unarmed peace activists and trained killers in body armor and automatic weapons is.
tkogrumpy
@Peter J: Threadwinner!
tkogrumpy
@Dave: This is complete bullshit. I obviously don’t agree with every thing expressed here, but it seems like a pretty open dialogue.
Dave
Really?
You have commenters here professing open support for Hamas, you have commenters here regurgitating countless anti-semltic memes, you have commenters here wishing that those nasty Jews would just go away….
And *I’m* in the wrong?
Michael
@Dave:
Worse. You’re an asshole.
LD50
Easy. Cut off every cent of US aid. Let Israel try and convince Russia or China that Israel has *their* best interests at heart. Israel’s human rights record is certainly a better match for Russia or China.
Snarla
I would express admiration for TenguPhule’s sheer perseverance if he weren’t just pulling “facts” out of his ass. Even so, I guess I still admire his sticktoitiveness.
joeyess
@Michael:
And he’s wrong.
Dave
I’m not the one fabricating stuff and nonsense to justify blatant anti-semitism.
El Cid
Israeli Jews who hate their government’s continual slaughter of Palestinians and ongoing militarist fetishism are all anti-Semites, though of the self-hating variety, because, well, SHUT UP.
ellaesther
@asiangrrlMN: Was asleep, now I’m back. And thus the obsession continues.
For anyone who’s interested:
About a million comments ago, I posted a link to my short history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and here are my preliminary thoughts on the flotilla — which boil down to: It matters not at all if the activists were armed, what matters is the blockade that they were symbolically trying to break, and the fact of the occupation — and the ten or more people who were killed trying to protest both. All discussion of knives vs. commandos is a distraction from those facts.
(And for those who haven’t read my screeds in the past: I’m an American-Israeli Jew who has lived, studied, reported on, and written about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict for something in the vicinity of 25 years. If you go to my blog you’ll find the story there).
Royston Vasey
@Dave: My guess is that they’ll sink it, kill hundreds, and of course anyone who says anything about it is without question an anti-Semite.
Royston Vasey
@ellaesther:
Add your site to my blogroll.
brad
Dear Dave, you know who are really antisemitic? Israelis. They criticize their own state all the damn time.
Oh, you mean you’re devaluing the word by inappropriately applying it to everyone whose views upset you because you’re emotionally immature and incapable of honest debate ? Carry on then.
ellaesther
@Royston Vasey: Thank you!