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You are here: Home / Math for Assholes

Math for Assholes

by John Cole|  May 31, 20107:35 pm| 108 Comments

This post is in: Assholes, I Read These Morons So You Don't Have To

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Leave it to the NRO to go the extra mile:

“One final note on proportionality: Fifteen “peace” activists dead is a tragedy, but they represent only one one-thousandth of the death toll of a French heatwave.”

And the number killed on 9/11 was only .00012% of the death toll of Bubonic plague. I guess that makes it ok.

Anyone know how this compares to the violence in Detroit?

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Reader Interactions

108Comments

  1. 1.

    meepmeep09

    May 31, 2010 at 7:39 pm

    Ruh-roh. The possibilities with these fun-with-numbers posts are endless.

  2. 2.

    Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle

    May 31, 2010 at 7:41 pm

    NRO sure knows how to bring the stupidity. Did they take math lessons from Turdblossom?

  3. 3.

    Ed Marshall

    May 31, 2010 at 7:41 pm

    Isn’t that number bigger than the entire amount of dead from the rocket attacks that are supposed to be the reason for sieging the Gaza Strip in the first place?

  4. 4.

    Vince CA

    May 31, 2010 at 7:42 pm

    I know I read the blogs so I don’t have to read “real” media outlets, but I should care what NRO thinks because why? When fishing for a-holes, don’t be surprised when you catch one.

    The prior comments were awesome. I never learned so much about Israeli policy, US civil war history, and feminine-hygiene-product look alikes. I love this blog.

  5. 5.

    DougJ

    May 31, 2010 at 7:42 pm

    A hundred fifty thousand deaths is herewith a “Rubin unit”.

  6. 6.

    Napoleon

    May 31, 2010 at 7:44 pm

    The better comparison for 9/11 would be to things like people who die from lack of health care/gun deaths/deaths from over use of salt/car accidents, etc. The most damning thing about our over response to 9/11 was that in a country our size we could take a death loss of that size a couple times a month (though admittedly not an economic loss) of that size and no one would notice, and in any event we regularly overlook things that could save a lot of lifes and no one seems to care.

  7. 7.

    MikeJ

    May 31, 2010 at 7:44 pm

    Of course there’s a longer standing rule: if somebody on your side has kill 5.999 million people, it’s unconscionable the make any comparisons with Nazis. They *must* cross the magic 6m threshold before any such comparisons may be drawn.

    If it’s people you don’t like doing the killing, saying “nazi” is ok with 0 deaths but proof of veganism or feminism.

  8. 8.

    dmsilev

    May 31, 2010 at 7:44 pm

    Well, they get asshole points for sheer assholishness, but I’m going to have to deduct three points for failure to include a mandatory Nazi reference. For maximum offensiveness, it should have been “2.5 parts per million of the Jewish death toll in the Holocaust”.

    dms

  9. 9.

    JGabriel

    May 31, 2010 at 7:50 pm

    Fifteen “peace” activists dead is a tragedy, but they represent only one one-thousandth of the death toll of a French heatwave.

    A French heatwave causes 15,000 deaths?

    Sounds unlikely.

    .

  10. 10.

    Cat Lady

    May 31, 2010 at 7:53 pm

    @JGabriel:

    French heat wave of 2003.

    Basically, it was bring out your dead week.

  11. 11.

    El Cruzado

    May 31, 2010 at 8:01 pm

    @Cat Lady: It was more like bring out your dead MONTH. Goddamn heat wave never ended.

    Of course the qualification with this (and I know it sounds harsh but bear with me) as with flu deaths is that it’s mostly an excuse for people who were barely hanging there to finally let it go. Probably the death rate went down after that for a few months to compensate.

    But yeah, 9/11 was less than 10% of the US yearly deaths in traffic accidents (IIRC), so clearly we shouldn’t worry that much about fanatic islamists crashing planes and all that.

  12. 12.

    Bruce (formerly Steve S.)

    May 31, 2010 at 8:17 pm

    “One final note on proportionality: Fifteen “peace” activists dead is a tragedy, but they represent only one one-thousandth of the death toll of a French heatwave.”

    Well, hell, the victims of the Holocaust were only 0.0006% of the people killed by God. Not sure what the point is but we could play this game all night.

  13. 13.

    grandpajohn

    May 31, 2010 at 8:23 pm

    How about this proportionality when Somalians do the same thing as these assholes did, its called piracy.

  14. 14.

    grandpajohn

    May 31, 2010 at 8:29 pm

    How about they apply this proportionality in terms of international law, when Somalians attack and seize ships in international waters, it is considered an act of piracy.

  15. 15.

    grandpajohn

    May 31, 2010 at 8:30 pm

    oops, first post got delayed in posting.

  16. 16.

    Kyle

    May 31, 2010 at 8:36 pm

    It’s all a misunderstanding. The Israelis were honoring US Memorial Day by re-enacting their 1967 murderous assault on the USS Liberty —

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident

  17. 17.

    liberal

    May 31, 2010 at 8:40 pm

    @Ed Marshall:
    Heh.

  18. 18.

    liberal

    May 31, 2010 at 8:41 pm

    @Kyle:
    LOL!

  19. 19.

    New Yorker

    May 31, 2010 at 8:52 pm

    This is yet another unhinged quote that deserves a bit of tinkering:

    “One final note on proportionality: Forty-six South Korean sailors dead is a tragedy, but they represent .06% of the death toll of the 1970 Ancash earthquake in Peru.”

  20. 20.

    MattF

    May 31, 2010 at 8:52 pm

    and and and… when the UN agents in the black helicopters come to take away our air conditioners and replace them with heat pumps, we can blame the French. Or something.

  21. 21.

    Jrod, Slayer of Phoenix

    May 31, 2010 at 8:56 pm

    Really, though, 15 dead activists represent only 0.000000000000001% of all the people who have ever died, so let’s not blow this out of proportion.

    Oh, shit, one rancher in Arizona was killed! CALL OUT THE NATIONAL GUARD!!!!!

  22. 22.

    TenguPhule

    May 31, 2010 at 9:01 pm

    NRO, uniting everyone else against them since inception.

  23. 23.

    TenguPhule

    May 31, 2010 at 9:02 pm

    when Somalians attack and seize ships in international waters, it is considered an act of piracy.

    When Somalians seize a ship, its for personal gain.
    That’s piracy.

    When Israeli government forces board for search and seizure, that’s a potential Article 110 Maritime violation.

    When “peace activists” attack said force, that’s just plain Stupid.

  24. 24.

    PaulW

    May 31, 2010 at 9:09 pm

    Do you know how many stubbed toes there are EVERY DAY around the world?! It’s far more than the number of people killed on a supply boat in the Mediterranean.

  25. 25.

    Gozer

    May 31, 2010 at 9:17 pm

    Weren’t the same assholes saying that the 2003 heatwave was just deserts for those damned Europeans defying the Dear Leader’s Excellent Iraq Adventure?

  26. 26.

    nick

    May 31, 2010 at 9:21 pm

    People are overlooking the other good quote –

    ” When attacked, why should not a stronger nation or its representatives try to both protects its own personnel at all costs and, in the wider scheme of things, defeat its adversaries?”

    I don’t even disagree with the quote. I just think it’s no at all applicable to what happened in this case.

  27. 27.

    New Yorker

    May 31, 2010 at 9:24 pm

    @nick:

    Exactly. When was Israel “attacked” here?

  28. 28.

    someguy

    May 31, 2010 at 9:39 pm

    Well, you have to give NRO some credit.

    At least they’re counting the dead activists as human beings. So that’s an improvement for the right. Probably inadvertent thought.

  29. 29.

    Kyle

    May 31, 2010 at 9:55 pm

    @New Yorker:

    Israel was attacked by an unarmed ship delivering food and construction materials.
    Based on this justification I’m going down to the freeway to shoot up some Safeway semis and concrete-mixer trucks. They’re just asking for it with their rank provocation driving through my town.

  30. 30.

    Mark

    May 31, 2010 at 9:59 pm

    And NRO didn’t even mention that these were 15 dead brown people. That’s, like, 1.5 real people.

  31. 31.

    KXB

    May 31, 2010 at 10:16 pm

    “And NRO didn’t even mention that these were 15 dead brown people. ”

    We don’t know the nationalities of the victims yet. There representatives of numerous countries on those ships, a number of them European. It’s one thing for Israel to forge European passports and send a hit team into a neutral nation (UAE). But if they did kill white Europeans, that would complicate matters. I have no idea what will happen if it turns out Israel killed a number of Turks.

  32. 32.

    Jrod, Slayer of Phoenix

    May 31, 2010 at 10:17 pm

    @Kyle: I hear ya, brother. Why, the last time I had my commando squad rappel down from helicopters to the local Home Depot, the people inside failed to bring out comfy chairs and refreshments!

    Shame about all the people who were killed, but hey, I had to defend myself. Against the bags of cement. With a commando raid. So really.

  33. 33.

    tofubo

    May 31, 2010 at 10:19 pm

    there is no violence in detroit

    i can’t even remember the 2nd time a gun was pulled on myself and the people i was with

    the same person who was there the first time told me about it regarding the second time

    yes, there were many intoxicants involved, both times

    but that was it, in five years, there’s no one left to shoot

  34. 34.

    Hob

    May 31, 2010 at 10:21 pm

    zut alors, je suis en moderation parce que j’ai dit soc*alisme…

  35. 35.

    Hob

    May 31, 2010 at 10:22 pm

    @Gozer: Yeah, they used it as an excuse to make fun of the French some more, because if there’s a freakish heat wave and a lot of old people die, that just proves that soeshulism makes you weak… or something. Whatever it was supposed to prove, there were right-wing bloggers and trolls all over the place who thought it was definitely good news for conservatives, or at least a good way to piss off liberals and old dead French people. Not really a shining moment for Internet humanity.

  36. 36.

    Bruce (formerly Steve S.)

    May 31, 2010 at 10:24 pm

    @TenguPhule:

    When Somalians seize a ship, its for personal gain.

    Which shows you what a two-bit operation they are. If they had a sophisticated PR department they’d simply declare a blockade and then everything that followed would be perfectly justified. As the folks who invented “enhanced interrogation” showed us, branding is everything.

  37. 37.

    KXB

    May 31, 2010 at 10:26 pm

    @Bruce (formerly Steve S.):

    Well, the Somalis did complain that other countries were illegally fishing in their waters, depleting their stocks. The difference is the Somalis were referring to “their” waters, unlike the Israelis.

  38. 38.

    Jrod, Slayer of Phoenix

    May 31, 2010 at 10:27 pm

    @KXB: Brown people, brown people sympathizers, six of one and half a dozen of the other. Best to kill em all, and let the devil have his due.

  39. 39.

    TenguPhule

    May 31, 2010 at 11:26 pm

    Shame about all the people who were killed, but hey, I had to defend myself. Against the bags of cement.

    Yes, they were only armed with bats and axes and knives and boards…it’s not like they could have killed anyone with them!

  40. 40.

    Mnemosyne

    May 31, 2010 at 11:36 pm

    So I haven’t had time to read through the 300+ comments on the previous thread — has there been any explanation at all as to why the IDF decided to do an airborne raid in international waters rather than, say, wait for this extremely well-publicized fleet to enter their territorial waters, surround them with a few of their many naval ships, and escort them to the port where they wanted to do the inspection?

    I mean, any reason other than trying to demonstrate to the world that they have a big swinging dick and they can violate international law any time they feel like it?

  41. 41.

    MattR

    May 31, 2010 at 11:39 pm

    @Mnemosyne: Nope.

    SATSQ

  42. 42.

    Jrod, Slayer of Phoenix

    May 31, 2010 at 11:41 pm

    @TenguPhule: Yes, exactly! I’m glad somebody finally understands why I had to kill 15 people at my local Home Depot. The place was chock full of board, pipes, shovels, blades, and all sorts of other deadly implements! How could I possibly do anything other than murder the people there en masse?

    I’m still not safe, though. Rumor has it that my neighbors have entire kitchens full of knives! Time to get the commandos back together, I think.

  43. 43.

    MattR

    May 31, 2010 at 11:43 pm

    @Jrod, Slayer of Phoenix:

    I’m still not safe, though. Rumor has it that my neighbors have entire kitchens full of knives!

    Not only that, but they actually brandish them when I break through a window in the middle of the night.

  44. 44.

    Xanthippas

    May 31, 2010 at 11:49 pm

    Okay, but it’s like infinite percent more than the number of Israeli commandos who died in the attack, which seems a more relevant comparison.

  45. 45.

    dadanarchist

    June 1, 2010 at 12:13 am

    It just doesn’t end:

    31 May 2010: An American solidarity activist was shot in the face with a tear gas canister during a demonstration in Qalandiya, today. Emily Henochowicz is currently in Hadassah Hospital in Jerusalem undergoing surgery to remove her left eye, following the demonstration that was held in protest to Israel’s murder of at least 10 civilians aboard the Gaza Freedom Flotilla in international waters this morning.

    She was raised Jewish and is a student at The Cooper Union. Deliberately aiming tear gas canisters at demonstrators is a dangerous and widely-practiced tactic of police forces worldwide.

  46. 46.

    Cacti

    June 1, 2010 at 12:47 am

    @El Cruzado:

    But yeah, 9/11 was less than 10% of the US yearly deaths in traffic accidents (IIRC), so clearly we shouldn’t worry that much about fanatic islamists crashing planes and all that.

    The death toll of 9/11 was less than 20% of the deaths caused by U.S. drunk drivers in 2001.

    Osama bin Laden = less dangerous than the demon drink

  47. 47.

    TenguPhule

    June 1, 2010 at 12:52 am

    has there been any explanation at all as to why the IDF decided to do an airborne raid in international waters rather than, say, wait for this extremely well-publicized fleet to enter their territorial waters, surround them with a few of their many naval ships, and escort them to the port where they wanted to do the inspection?

    My understanding is rather then risk an escalated confrontation with overwhelming military force (and all the bad publicity that ensues), the Israelis tried a quieter, more dubious method of search and seizure. Fun and Games with Article 110, which backfired on them when the commandos got zerg swarmed by people with melee weapons and them with paintball rifles.

    After that, well six Israelis injured, two critical. Ten dead, and multiple wounded on the other side.

  48. 48.

    TenguPhule

    June 1, 2010 at 12:53 am

    I’m glad somebody finally understands why I had to kill 15 people at my local Home Depot. The place was chock full of board, pipes, shovels, blades, and all sorts of other deadly implements! How could I possibly do anything other than murder the people there en masse?

    Yeah, because it’s not like they were trying to kill anyone with it…Oh wait.

  49. 49.

    Mnemosyne

    June 1, 2010 at 1:04 am

    @TenguPhule:

    My understanding is rather then risk an escalated confrontation with overwhelming military force (and all the bad publicity that ensues), the Israelis tried a quieter, more dubious method of search and seizure. Fun and Games with Article 110, which backfired on them when the commandos got zerg swarmed by people with melee weapons and them with paintball rifles.

    So “trying to show they have big swinging dicks” is the answer. Gotcha.

    But, hey, it looks like they’ve finally managed to permanently piss off Turkey, their oldest ally, so it wasn’t a total loss, right? I mean, Israel has so many friends in the Middle East that they can easily afford to alienate the one Muslim country that has been on their side since Israel was founded.

    You can make all of the excuses you want for how the poor Israelis were forced to violate international law and attack on the open seas, but this was a pretty terminal fuckup. It’s still an open question whether or not NATO is going to feel compelled to retaliate since Turkey is a NATO signatory and Israel is not.

    Heckuva job, Bibi!

    ETA: Though I do love how you keep implying that the Israeli forces somehow managed to kill a dozen people even though they were armed only with paintball guns. What did they have in those things, nitroglycerin?

  50. 50.

    Jrod

    June 1, 2010 at 1:23 am

    @TenguPhule: But they were trying to kill someone at that Home Depot, namely, my crack squad of commandos. I thought you were a kindred spirit, one who understands that sometimes, when you attack some people, and the bastards dare to fight back, some indiscriminate murder is perfectly reasonable in self-defense.

    The fact that those people at Home Depot only became violent after I attempted to end their brutal campaign to distribute building supplies with my commandos is immaterial.

    Anyone who says otherwise is a damn anti-semite. Don’t you agree?

  51. 51.

    TenguPhule

    June 1, 2010 at 1:58 am

    when you attack some people, and the bastards dare to fight back,

    This is actually one of the essential questions that needs to be answered. Who attacked first?

    The commandos coming down or the activists on board?

    Now going by the stories provided thus far, if it was Israel who fired first, they were boarding fucking stupid (note that this isn’t improbable given recent Israeli fuckups) and deserve charges against the team.

    On the other hand, if the activists started the violence by trying to kill the commandos….time for charges to be brought up on them.

  52. 52.

    MattR

    June 1, 2010 at 2:04 am

    @TenguPhule:

    This is actually one of the essential questions that needs to be answered. Who attacked first?

    There is no dispute here. The Israelis attacked first when they attempted to board the ship in international waters.

  53. 53.

    TenguPhule

    June 1, 2010 at 2:05 am

    You can make all of the excuses you want for how the poor Israelis were forced to violate international law and attack on the open seas

    What excuses? This was a *probable* article 110 violation by Israel. The only way they could get out of that would be if there were indeed weapons on board, in which case the whole ship becomes essentially a false flag violating several articles of war and Turkey holding the bag.

    Now if they don’t find weapons, well then Israel is up shit creek and falls under international law to reimburse the crew…right up until the violence started and all the legalities got tossed out the window.

    Though I do love how you keep implying that the Israeli forces somehow managed to kill a dozen people even though they were armed only with paintball guns. What did they have in those things, nitroglycerin?

    According to preliminary reports the Israelis primary weapons were paintball guns, they also had sidearms that they were allegedly instructed *not* to use unless given permission to in the case of protecting themselves. At some point in time apparently some of the commandos got swarmed by the activists and allegedly the mob shot two commandos with their own weapons in addition to badly beating at least one other commando. At this point Israel says they gave authorization for their commandos to start shooting back. And then it gets unclear until we have 10 dead activists and 6 wounded Israelis.

  54. 54.

    Kyle

    June 1, 2010 at 2:08 am

    one who understands that sometimes, when you attack some people, and the bastards dare to fight back, some indiscriminate murder is perfectly reasonable in self-defense.

    You’ve obviously worked with some American police departments on no-knock raids.

  55. 55.

    TenguPhule

    June 1, 2010 at 2:10 am

    The Israelis attacked first when they attempted to board the ship in international waters.

    Oh you’re a riot, you should try telling our navy that horrible lack of knowledge of maritime law. They’ll laugh themselves sick.

    The boarding may constitute an Article 110 violation. It does *not* count as an attack of violence.

    If the activists attacked the commandos and the commandos fired in self-defense then so much for peace activists being peaceful.

    Now if its the other way around, prosecute the commandos.

    But do not push this bullshit of yours.

  56. 56.

    TenguPhule

    June 1, 2010 at 2:12 am

    So “trying to show they have big swinging dicks” is the answer. Gotcha.

    Yet another edition of Mnemosyne making shit up.

  57. 57.

    Mike G

    June 1, 2010 at 2:16 am

    and them with paintball rifles.

    the Israelis primary weapons were paintball guns, they also had sidearms that they were allegedly instructed not to use unless given permission to in the case of protecting themselves.

    A slightly different story the second time you told it. Anything else you’re leaving out that you’d like to share in your next revision of the story?

  58. 58.

    Annamal

    June 1, 2010 at 2:17 am

    One Australian citizen wounded, 2 Australian fairfax journalists detained as well as one NZ citizen.

    Australia is already planning to expell an Israeli diplomat over the whole “counterfeiting Australian passports and using them during an assassination” thing, I doubt this will help relations.

  59. 59.

    MattR

    June 1, 2010 at 2:17 am

    @TenguPhule:

    The boarding may constitute an Article 110 violation. It does not count as an attack of violence.

    When a SWAT team forcibly enters a building to execute a warrant, they are attacking it. They have legal authority to do so, but it is an attack nonetheless. Same thing for the Israeli commandos. When they chose to board the ship without permission of its captain, they attacked it.

  60. 60.

    TenguPhule

    June 1, 2010 at 2:22 am

    Same thing for the Israeli commandos. When they chose to board the ship without permission of its captain, they attacked it.

    /facepalm

    I’m sure your novel approach to maritime law will do wonders for the naval community.

  61. 61.

    TenguPhule

    June 1, 2010 at 2:24 am

    A slightly different story the second time you told it.

    You’re right, I should have mentioned the sidearms yet again because apparently it doesn’t sink in the first couple of times.

  62. 62.

    scav

    June 1, 2010 at 2:27 am

    @TenguPhule: hmmm. Judging by which boat the events took place on and the location in international waters . . . I might be so bold as to venture a wild guess. but if we’re going to play dice and slice and legalesey chopping a hair in 8ths (which in France, I think they do along diameters to make it interesting) and existential mommy they frighten me games, well . . . clearly we can kick this can a little bit further. I’m really just not sure which charm school to avoid more: BP’s or Israel’s.

    and Mnemosyne’s not entirely alone in the swinging dick interpretation. Third para here (via TPM). I’d been interpreting it it my mind as an unforced error. But I like how George Friedman put it: “In doing so, Israel ran into its own fist.”

  63. 63.

    TenguPhule

    June 1, 2010 at 2:36 am

    Judging by which boat the events took place on and the location in international waters . . .

    And yes, Israel has a reputation for being tactically stupid with other people’s property and people.

    It doesn’t tell us who tried to kill who first on that boat.

    If the Israelis did fire first, then count me among those who’ll call for them to be held accountable.

    But if they didn’t fire first, well I expect a lot of excuses from parties interested only in pushing a narrative.

  64. 64.

    Yutsano

    June 1, 2010 at 2:43 am

    @TenguPhule: Here’s the big problem: you have two sides that are very antagonistic who also have ulterior motives for being dishonest about the whole situation. As is usually the case, the truth is most likely somewhere in the middle. Israel overplayed their hand here so they will look like the bad guys here for now, but the “peace activists” have some explaining to do as well. The sad part is the only people who know what happened are selling the story that shows their side in the best light instead of telling objective truth. In other words. we’ll never know for sure without some independent evidence.

  65. 65.

    scav

    June 1, 2010 at 2:43 am

    Well, they’re following BP’s lead on that too, clamping down on everyone and isolating them and managing a massive international PR op, so . . . there are clearly narratives on both sides.

  66. 66.

    MattR

    June 1, 2010 at 2:43 am

    @TenguPhule: So for the record, if the Iranian Navy intercepts an American merchant ship and demands that it divert to an Iranian port and the American ship refuses so the Iranians board them upon which time the American sailors try to repel the Iranians, you will condemn the American sailors and demand they be held accountable?

  67. 67.

    scav

    June 1, 2010 at 2:46 am

    @scav: Can’t edit my own comment with 3 minutes free. Anyway, just to point out the whole thing I cited above was largely about competing narratives and managing (or mis-managing) them — NOT that I want to bring that whole can of angst up again.

  68. 68.

    Sgt. Jrod and his Howling Commandos

    June 1, 2010 at 2:53 am

    @TenguPhule: And while you’re busy splitting hairs over whether commandos rappelling onto a ship in the dead of night with intention of taking it over is technically an attack, the rest of the world ain’t having it.

    I suppose you also think that when a SWAT team takes fire when they bust into the wrong house they deserve medals for their courage under fire.

    If the Israelis did fire first, then count me among those who’ll call for them to be held accountable.

    Sheeyeah, right. Israel will claim that they didn’t fire first, even though the only reason there were guns on the ship was because their commandos brought them on board to aid them in commandeering the ship. This will be all the evidence you need, and those criminals who dared to bring building supplies to Gaza who say otherwise will simply be lying propagandists.

    For fuck’s sake, the boat was full of concrete. Concrete! Israel killed around ten people so they could prevent Gaza from getting concrete. And all you care about is finding some way to blame Hamas. How the hell do you sleep at night? If I was such a massive scumbag I’d fucking drop myself from the highest bridge I could find.

  69. 69.

    Peter J

    June 1, 2010 at 3:02 am

    I’m sure your novel approach to maritime law will do wonders for the naval community.

    And your approach will do wonders for the pirates all over the world. As long as they don’t fire first, they haven’t really attacked. And when the crew of the ship being boarded defends themselves, then the pirates are in their full right to use deadly force.

  70. 70.

    Lupin

    June 1, 2010 at 3:28 am

    FWIW according to a March 2007 report from INSERM (French National Health Institute) (can’t link direct to the report), the 2003 heatwave caused 70,000 deaths throughout Europe. France’s number was nearly 15,000 and Italy’s 20,000.

  71. 71.

    TenguPhule

    June 1, 2010 at 3:32 am

    And your approach will do wonders for the pirates all over the world. As long as they don’t fire first, they haven’t really attacked

    I can tell you have not read the Maritime laws at all.

    Try again when you know what we’re actually talking about next time.

  72. 72.

    Peter J

    June 1, 2010 at 3:35 am

    TenguPhule, why don’t you tell me where I erred?

  73. 73.

    TenguPhule

    June 1, 2010 at 3:35 am

    So for the record, if the Iranian Navy intercepts an American merchant ship and demands that it divert to an Iranian port and the American ship refuses so the Iranians board them upon which time the American sailors try to repel the Iranians, you will condemn the American sailors and demand they be held accountable?

    If a bunch of American activists announce their intentions to breach Iranian waters, then resist a search and seizure by a Iranian military vessel by trying to kill said Iranians first as they came on board, yes. I’d also call them fucking idiots.

  74. 74.

    TenguPhule

    June 1, 2010 at 3:36 am

    TenguPhule, why don’t you tell me where I erred?

    For starters by confusing pirates with military naval vessels. Your complete ignorance pretty much snowballs from there.

  75. 75.

    Sgt. Jrod and his Howling Commandos

    June 1, 2010 at 3:37 am

    @TenguPhule: Be more like Tengu, who always knows whats up. Here, I’ll make it simple for you: are we talking about something Israel did? In that case, it was perfectly legal and justified and moral and totally aaawwwweeesome.

    If people would only read up on their maritime laws, they’d realize that slaughtering people to prevent them from delivering concrete to people who live in huts because somebody bombed the shit out of their land and won’t allow them the materials they need to rebuild is not only perfectly proper, but the only moral thing to do.

  76. 76.

    TenguPhule

    June 1, 2010 at 3:39 am

    I suppose you also think that when a SWAT team takes fire when they bust into the wrong house they deserve medals for their courage under fire.

    What wrong house? To correct your analogy, they busted into the correct house with an iffy warrant that probably wouldn’t fly if a good lawyer had been called in and while primarily armed with non-lethal weapons, then were apparently attacked by the inhabitants with deadly force and were authorized to respond in kind.

  77. 77.

    Peter J

    June 1, 2010 at 3:40 am

    TenguPhule, I guess the Somali Pirates should just convert their pirate ships into “military naval vessels”, problem solved from your point of view.

    If a bunch of American activists announce their intentions to breach Iranian waters, then resist a search and seizure by a Iranian military vessel by trying to kill said Iranians first as they came on board, yes. I’d also call them fucking idiots.

    So, you’re defending preemptive strikes?

  78. 78.

    TenguPhule

    June 1, 2010 at 3:42 am

    are we talking about something Israel did? In that case, it was perfectly legal and justified and moral and totally aaawwwweeesome.

    Are you intentionally this dishonest and stupid? Israel was interdicting under Article 110, only they probably don’t appear to have had the justification required for using that type of search and seizure. This legality question is seperate from the issue of who attacked who first on the vessel. If Israeli troops fired first, they’re at fault for the violence that took place. If the activists attacked first, they’re guilty of attempted murder and being fucking idiots.

  79. 79.

    TenguPhule

    June 1, 2010 at 3:43 am

    I guess the Somali Pirates should just convert their pirate ships into “military naval vessels”,

    An intelligent person would stop digging the hole of ignorance deeper.

  80. 80.

    Peter J

    June 1, 2010 at 3:44 am

    And with your deep knowledge of maritime law, TenguPhule, is there any limit on how far away from Israel that the Israeli navy can board a ship?

  81. 81.

    TenguPhule

    June 1, 2010 at 3:44 am

    So, you’re defending preemptive strikes?

    At least announce you want to Play Calvinball.

  82. 82.

    Sgt. Jrod and his Howling Commandos

    June 1, 2010 at 3:45 am

    @TenguPhule: By wrong house I was referring to something that actually happened. It’s not a perfect analogy, but in both cases the raiders had no fucking business raiding.

  83. 83.

    TenguPhule

    June 1, 2010 at 3:48 am

    And with your deep knowledge of maritime law, TenguPhule, is there any limit on how far away from Israel that the Israeli navy can board a ship?

    The same as our navy, the same as everyone else’s navy.

    High seas, ANYBODY’S navy can board under article 110 provided they have the justification given under that article. If they don’t they owe restitution to the boarded party.

    Attacking naval representives who are boarding under 110 is an invitation to be shot.

    Replace Israeli with American and Turkish with North Korean. Same shit, same response.

  84. 84.

    Peter J

    June 1, 2010 at 3:49 am

    If the activists attacked first, they’re guilty of attempted murder and being fucking idiots.

    I think the Israeli really should prosecute them, don’t you agree?

  85. 85.

    TenguPhule

    June 1, 2010 at 3:49 am

    It’s not a perfect analogy, but in both cases the raiders had no fucking business raiding.

    Wrong. You are claming a wrong house analogy. Israel boarded the correct vessel. Learn your maritime law basics at least.

  86. 86.

    Sgt. Jrod and his Howling Commandos

    June 1, 2010 at 3:52 am

    @TenguPhule: Article 110 states that a warship is not justified in boarding a ship it encounters, unless:
    (a) the ship is engaged in piracy;
    (b) the ship is engaged in the slave trade;
    (c) the ship is engaged in unauthorized broadcasting and the flag State of the warship has jurisdiction under article 109;
    (d) the ship is without nationality; or
    (e) though flying a foreign flag or refusing to show its flag, the ship is, in reality, of the same nationality as the warship.

    The flotilla was not engaging in piracy, it wasn’t trading slaves, it wasn’t making unauthorized broadcasts, and it was flying the Turkish flag. How the hell does A. 110 justify what Israel did in the slightest?

    @85: You first. I’m looking right at article 110 and the flotilla did not meet any of the five listed justifications for boarding.

  87. 87.

    TenguPhule

    June 1, 2010 at 3:52 am

    In other words. we’ll never know for sure without some independent evidence

    And that’s what I’d like to see before jumping the fucking gun like half the suddenly zombified commenters here.
    There’s fucking holes in both sides stories. Can we at least get some fucking answers before the piling on begins?

  88. 88.

    Peter J

    June 1, 2010 at 3:57 am

    TenguPhule, I guess the card house you built on article 110 is no more, is the new one ‘let’s get some fucking answers first’?

  89. 89.

    Sgt. Jrod and his Howling Commandos

    June 1, 2010 at 3:57 am

    @TenguPhule: Yes, let’s get some answers! Let’s just talk to the people who were on the ships, and… wait, what’s that? Israel is holding them prisoner and they can’t talk to anyone? But they have an obviously edited 60 seconds of grainy video with the correct interpretations of the chaos on the deck pasted in big letters for our convenience?

    I guess we have no choice but to assume everything is on the level.

  90. 90.

    TenguPhule

    June 1, 2010 at 3:58 am

    How the hell does A. 110 justify what Israel did in the slightest?

    Like I said, iffy warrant. They were trying to search and secure apparently without the requirements needed for an article 110. My best guess would be they were trying to find evidence of weapon smuggling, which they would then throw out as evidence to justify the search and seizure.

    It doesn’t justify sending the commandos in, but that’s the whole point, had the activists done nothing, then Israel would have had to compensate them. The moment the fighting started though, a whole new can of worms opened up.

  91. 91.

    MattR

    June 1, 2010 at 3:59 am

    @TenguPhule:

    And that’s what I’d like to see before jumping the fucking gun like half the suddenly zombified commenters here.
    There’s fucking holes in both sides stories. Can we at least get some fucking answers before the piling on begins?

    The thing is that even if you accept all of Israeli’s claims, it was still a stupid and counter productive action to take.

    @Sgt. Jrod and his Howling Commandos: You forgot paragraph 2 which states how the boarding is to be carried out.

    In the cases provided for in paragraph 1, the warship may proceed to verify the ship’s right to fly its flag. To this end, it may send a boat under the command of an officer to the suspected ship. If suspicion remains after the documents have been checked, it may proceed to a further examination on board the ship, which must be carried out with all possible consideration.

  92. 92.

    TenguPhule

    June 1, 2010 at 4:00 am

    is the new one ‘let’s get some fucking answers first’?

    /facepalm

    Are you not paying any attention at all? There are two different arguments being addressed here.

  93. 93.

    Peter J

    June 1, 2010 at 4:02 am

    But they have an obviously edited 60 seconds of grainy video with the correct interpretations of the chaos on the deck pasted in big letters for our convenience?

    Considering we’re living in age of mobile phones with cameras. How many of the passengers and crews were filming the boarding? How many of their mobile phones are going to be “lost”?

  94. 94.

    TenguPhule

    June 1, 2010 at 4:02 am

    I guess we have no choice but to assume everything is on the level.

    Such noble dispassionate third party neutrality interested in getting the true story. /sarcasm

  95. 95.

    Peter J

    June 1, 2010 at 4:06 am

    In the cases provided for in paragraph 1, the warship may proceed to verify the ship’s right to fly its flag.

    Israel doubted that the vessel, being rather well known, was in its right to fly its flag?

    To this end, it may send a boat under the command of an officer to the suspected ship.

    They did?

  96. 96.

    TenguPhule

    June 1, 2010 at 4:12 am

    They did?

    Who knows. So far the only timeline given is commandos/violence/dead bodies.

    Two sides with reason and reputations for lying, so what actually happened before the bodies?

  97. 97.

    Sgt. Jrod and his Howling Commandos

    June 1, 2010 at 4:14 am

    @TenguPhule: I never claimed to be dispassionate or neutral. One of the few perks that come with being a loudmouth nobody on the internet is that I can call it like I see it.

    What I see is a nation that killed ten people in the course of preventing building supplies from reaching the ghetto they’ve created. It’s not my fucking job to pretend otherwise until said nation can find a justification that doesn’t crumble away like that Article 110 notion did.

  98. 98.

    Peter J

    June 1, 2010 at 4:18 am

    Who knows. So far the only timeline given is commandos/violence/dead bodies.

    There were lots of people on board the vessels that where phoning, emailing and twittering up and until their communications were cut during the boarding.

    Don’t you think there would have been reports if there had been an officer boarding the vessel to check it’s status?

    But then, there would be no reason to doubt the vessels right to fly their flags, would there?

  99. 99.

    sunsin

    June 1, 2010 at 4:23 am

    @TenguPhule: I guess the only question remaining, after someone called your Article 110 bluff, is if you’re being paid by the word or by the post.

    The Israeli commandos were lucky they fell into the hands of a mob of peace activists. With just about anyone else, they would have been torn to pieces. I don’t think the commandos themselves would deserve such a fate — there’s just stupid tools — but there are some people further up the chain of command who certainly do. And if it ever happens, the world will laugh and cheer.

  100. 100.

    wengler

    June 1, 2010 at 5:30 am

    @ TenguPhile

    I truly feel sorry for you. This Israeli government is not worth the logic cartwheels. I don’t know your political outlook but really? Gunning down a diverse group of peace activists attempting to deliver food to starving people? This is a hard call??

    For everyone else it appears that a preliminary sequence of events is forming despite the fact that Israel has kidnapped the passengers and crew of these vessels. The boarding team apparently fired and killed 2 people and wounded several others before even stepping foot on the ship. This actually explains quite well the belligerant reaction of the people aboard the ship; it appears that they thought they were all going to be killed.

    We know about the initial attack because al Jazeera had a correspondent on board reporting about it as it happened, before the Israeli commandos stormed the ship. What that video that Israel released appears to show is what happened during the boarding and after the initial attack.

    If this sequence of events is accurate, then Israel will likely seek to hold on to the people they kidnapped for as long as is politically feasible in order to take control of the narrative of this incredibly horrible deed. The UN Security Council has already condemned it with the US NOT giving Israel political cover so the way things worked a couple days ago may not be the way they work now. This Netanyahu government should definitely fall because of this.

  101. 101.

    Lupin

    June 1, 2010 at 8:12 am

    I for one certainly hope that Turkey will send along a few warships with the next flotilla. It’s high time this Israeli bullying bullshit gets challenged.

    What we have here is a tinpot democracy ]seemingly run by a bunch of crooks, hostage to an unlawful occupation force (the “settlers”), calling the shots because everyone else is afraid of challenging them because of the US protection racket.

  102. 102.

    brantl

    June 1, 2010 at 8:13 am

    @Mnemosyne: None that practically apply, no.

  103. 103.

    brantl

    June 1, 2010 at 8:27 am

    @TenguPhule: If you were an intelligent person, you’d stop digging this hole, ‘phule.

  104. 104.

    KXB

    June 1, 2010 at 9:32 am

    If Tenguphule is so concerned about observing international law, how about that little bit of international law that prohibits the Israelis from building settlements on the West Bank and annexing East Jerusalem? Or, are some international laws more important than others?

  105. 105.

    John Cole

    June 1, 2010 at 9:50 am

    This is actually one of the essential questions that needs to be answered. Who attacked first?

    The commandos coming down or the activists on board?

    You can’t possibly be this stupid. Yes. The very act of landing on the deck of the Turkish boat in International waters was an attack. Period. Full Stop.

    No one here is pretending that all of the people on the boats were saints- pretty clearly a small group of them were waiting for them after the Israeli forces shadowed them for hours. But this notion that they were “armed” because they had makeshift weaponry that also has dual-use purposes on a ship at sea (find me a ship that doesn’t have knives or axes) is the height of idiocy.

  106. 106.

    Nylund

    June 1, 2010 at 11:23 am

    I imagine that he has some spreadsheet with the fatality totals of recent natural disasters, the earthquake in Haiti, the tsunami, etc., and a little comments column listing the amount of “enemies” this justifies killing.

  107. 107.

    Yishai Kohen

    June 1, 2010 at 12:44 pm

    The Surgeon General has determined that supporting terrorists is bad for your health.

    If you play with matches you WILL get burned.

    Have a nice day. :-)

  108. 108.

    colin r

    June 1, 2010 at 4:29 pm

    So, this means they’re finally taking climate change seriously?

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