Sully posted a video of Israelis celebrating the commando assault on the flotilla outside the Turkish embassy, and you can go there and watch it if you want. While I have no way of knowing if it is in fact real, because I view pretty much everything coming out of that region from Israel and their foes as nothing but propaganda, all I could think about was how we, as Americans, viewed the videos of Palestinians celebrating after 9/11 and the impact it had on us.
Meanwhile, Jeffrey Goldberg passes along this story from the son of an IDF member:
“These soldiers are the best we have. We are Israel’s deterrent. People in the Middle East need to think we are the best, and we are the best, except that when we’re sent into situations without any intelligence, without any direction, with paintball guns instead of sufficient weapons, with no understanding of who we’re fighting. Then we’re going to have a disaster. These commandos were beaten with pipes! They came onto the deck (of the ship) one by one down a rope and they were beaten by a mob! Commandos! It’s amazing that they didn’t kill everyone on the ship, once they regrouped. Just amazing. The whole story is amazing.”
Such restraint! So admirable! Lucky us! It is amazing! We are so proud your commandos didn’t kill everyone on the boat! And Goldberg had no problem printing it, which shows you where his head is. Or how truly toxic the mindset within Israel is, that he would think nothing of this story and how it looks to people who have not lost their minds. (see update) Considering that Sullivan has also passed along the view that the blockade and the action the other day are quite popular in Israel, you have to wonder if the entire country of Israel with the exception of the Haaretz editorial board really has lost their collective damned minds.
At the very least, they have completely lost the ability to think how the rest of the world is beginning to view the nation’s belligerent and inexcusable behavior. Worth considering for the average Israeli is that the pretext for the bloody invasion of Gaza that is referred to in the Muslim world as the Gaza Massacre, in which 1200 to 1400 Gaza residents, mostly civilian, were killed, was a series of inexcusable rocket attacks that killed (and the numbers are hard to determine because of differing reports) approximately a dozen people.
There’s no excusing what Hamas has done to Israel, and I can’t imagine what America would do under similar circumstances were Mexico firing rockets into the United States, but if a dozen Israeli deaths can lead to the leveling of Gaza, 1400 deaths, and the collective punishment of the entire population, how does Israel expect Turkey to react when the flagged military of Israel boarded a Turkish ship, killed four of her citizens, and then celebrated in the streets in front of their embassy? And held captive dozens more of her citizens, and only after much pressure, released them without any of their possessions. All because they were trying to bring supplies to a region the Israelis have starved since 2006, with exceptions when Israeli farmers have a little surplus they need to unload.
Instead of a serious response from the Israeli government, we are being treated to a barrage of PR nonsense from the IDF, including doctored videos of Gaza restaurants and pictures of the mass of “arms” the “lynch mob” had on the ship, which look surprisingly like the kind of tackle you would find on a ship and would use only in last-minute self defense. Maybe it was my military training, but if I am planning an attack on a nation’s military, I want to be armed with something more than an axe handle and an oversized set of vice grips. Call me crazy.
Are they completely blind to how the rest of the world is viewing this? Or do they just not care? Or do they think they can just spin their way out of this?
I say this as someone who fervently believes the nation of Israel has a right to exist and to self defense, who thinks Hamas really is a group of murderous thugs, who spent the better part of my adult life reflexively defending Israel, and who until recently supported financial assistance to Israel. But right now- we are just enabling lunacy and propping up an out of control and incompetent Israeli government.
/end ramble
*** Update ***
A commenter suggests I am misreading the story Goldberg relayed:
I did not take that Goldberg story quite the same way.
The quote actually begins with: ” he explained the shame this way”.
That IDF member’s son is actually embarrassed about what happened, that the IDF is supposed to be competent—that they shouldn’t have even been put into such a difficult position—bad intelligence, bad planning, bad execution. He says it’s no wonder it was a disaster. I think he’s just even more amazed that it wasn’t a bigger disaster.
He’s not proud, he’s disgusted.
That makes a helluva lot more sense than my interpretation, so apologies.
Also, I keep forgetting to link to commenter ellaesther’s website, who has been writing about this situation for several decades, and unlike me, actually knows something.
Violet
Yes, yes and yes. Plus they’re pretty confident the US will back them no matter what. And so far we have. So why should they care what anyone else thinks?
Speaking of those Israeli commandos with the mad skillz, this made me laugh.
Martin
Have you ever gotten a purple nurple with an oversized pair of vice grips? You’ll wish they had just brought an M-16.
MattR
I think they subscribe to the Cheney belief that since they are the “good guys” anything they do in support of their goals is therefore “good”.
srv
A Veritable Army of Davids – had they just had slingshots.
thefncrow
Fucking Biden. From Politico:
Jay B.
Great post John. I think a lot of Israel supporters are thinking along those same lines today.
ruemara
Is it wrong that all this video makes me wanna do is cry? Can there be so many people in one place that have lost any heart and any mind that they ever had? Of course, the despicable behaviour of tea party people should have cured me of hope, but, I am the weed positivity sometimes.
Violet
@thefncrow:
Has Biden been appointed by the Administration to be the good cop? If so, is there going to be a bad cop? Or are they just going to roll over and continue to let Israel do whatever they want? And by “let” I mean, “continue sending money and other support to Israel, no matter what they do.”
sunsin
The trouble is that cutting off assistance to Israel now, even if it could be done, would only throw them into worse tantrums.
I hope Western navies are keeping close tabs on those four Israeli nuclear-armed missile submarines, and are prepared to sink them without warning if things get hectic.
Midnight Marauder
This is a very salient point that I hadn’t considered yet, Cole. Even though I’ve seen the video of Israeli citizens cheering the death and destruction caused by the IDF in front of the Turkish embassy! You asked these questions towards the close of your ramble, but any one who is an honest and rational observer of the world knows the answer to:
No.
Yes.
Israel is rapidly running out of chances for international redemption.
Redshirt
Hey, they attacked a US ship – what did we do in response?
I’ve been learning these past ten years that for some people, anything is possible. Lies, deceit, new lies that contradict the previous lies, whatever and whenever – you’ll get away with it. So why not trying to get away with whatever you want, since the past has been so successful?
BombIranForChrist
I had the (perhaps idiotic) brainstorm today that Israel is a bit like a country with too much oil.
When a country has a shit ton of oil, it doesn’t really need to develop its economy beyond that which is required to extract the oil. This country will do fine, until the oil runs out. Then it is fucked.
I think Israel is a bit like a country with too much oil, except replace “too much oil” with “unconditional United States support”. It seems to me, as an outsider with only a base level understanding of Israel and its history, that a lot of Israel’s recent decisions are fundamentally based on the idea that the United States will help them if the shit hits the fan. This has led to a kind of shit-brained and twisted system not unlike the shit-brained and twisted economy that relies too much on a single resource to sustain its growth.
Is my point.
I don’t want anything bad to happen to Israel or its people. And its beyond hilarious for any anti-Israeli group to pretend innocence in the middle of all of this. But I am starting to believe that the best thing for Israel would be for the US to yank the tit out of Israel’s mouth and force it to think a little harder before doing braindead things.
Ruckus
Are they completely blind to how the rest of the world is viewing this? Or do they just not care? Or do they think they can just spin their way out of this?
1. They are.
2. They do not.
3. They absolutely do.
They aren’t listening they are reciting the neocon prayer chant. Same over there as here. “We are the world. We are righteous. We can do anything. No one can stop us. We want, we take. You don’t like it, piss off.”
thefncrow
@Violet: If there was actually going to be a Bad Cop, I’d be thrilled. I don’t see that happening though, considering every Administration official seems to be racing to come out and publicly support Israel’s actions.
I’ve been upset at the administration many a time, but this absolutely takes the cake. I could even understand tiny bit of strategic support, which would make me a upset but I could at least somewhat understand, but for them to come out enthusiastically like they have in support of Israel is completely out of line.
LikeableInMyOwnWay
They believe that God is on their side. Nothing else matters.
Mnemosyne
IMO, they’ve gotten so far down the self-righteous road that they actually think that this was okay. They actually think that attacking Turkish ships in international waters and killing Turkish citizens was no big deal and they don’t understand why the Turks are really pissed off.
And, yes, this sure as hell reminds me of the behavior of some of the political figures in our country who just couldn’t understand why people would be disgusted by the torture at Abu Ghraib. Hey, it was just like a fraternity prank! High five!
Jerry 101
Wow…is the IDF serious? We’re supposed to think that the Mighty Israeli military was frightened by…kitchen knives?
I see one legitimate weapon in there – the big fat knife.
A few pocket knives that anyone could be carrying, most of which appear to be small enough to take onto a plane (under 3 inches)
A bunch of kitchen knives – did they clear out the galley?
And a bunch of tools? Wrenches and hammers and pliers and other tools one often finds…on a boat?
Yeah, the IDF was definitely dealing with a highly trained and dangerous covert operation.
Yeah, the israeli government’s smoking some crazy stuff if they think people are gonna buy this story.
A pox on both houses. The Israeli Government and Hamas both like the status quo – keeps them in power. Until people see that and delegitimize Hamas and the Israeli Right, the issue will never resolve. And ordinary people on both sides (but mostly on Palestine’s side) will suffer.
Immanentize
I am not asking this just to be provacative. I have done the military thing (only JAG, Kirk!) I have been to Israel and run a student program there. I have many friends there, including friends in the military (who doesn’t?) I really like Israel and support all of its liberal zionist intentions — including the jewishness of the state and its socialist ideals….
What I want to know is, why do the “superior forces” of IDF suck so bad? They got their asses handed to them in Lebanon, they acted like Russians in Chechnya when in Gaza — I mean, they are actually becoming the subjects I knew from the jokes about the Polish Army or the Italians from WWII. They just suck. The video of their “assault” looks like a bunch of boneheads stumbling (repelling) into a mosh pit. I mean really!
Where does this scary IDF are TEH GREATEST come from. Entebbe in 1976 — when Gerald Fucking Ford was President? Most of teh residents in Israel were born after that, I think. Their comando guys seem to suck and I hope ours are better.
MattR
@Midnight Marauder: Another quote from the Goldberg piece:
The story that John quoted was interesting as well. I agreed with the first 80% of it up but I had a completely different conclusion. I still don’t understand how anyone thought it would be a good idea to drop a bunch of soldiers onto a ship where they would have no ability to retreat.
(EDIT: And I don’t disagree with stevie314159’s interpretation either)
stevie314159
I did not take that Goldberg story quite the same way.
The quote actually begins with: ” he explained the shame this way”.
That IDF member’s son is actually embarrassed about what happened, that the IDF is supposed to be competent– that they shouldn’t have even been put into such a difficult position–bad intelligence, bad planning, bad execution. He says it’s no wonder it was a disaster. I think he’s just even more amazed that it wasn’t a bigger disaster.
He’s not proud, he’s disgusted.
LikeableInMyOwnWay
@Midnight Marauder:
Stealthy terrorists who recklessly drove their boats under the Israeli helicopters and into the path of their ropes, drawing the commandoes down and into a deadly fight with deck chairs which they had snuck onboard for this purpose.
Israel is right, they should have sunk those boats.
FlipYrWhig
@stevie314159:
Still, his lament is that they ought to be remorseless killing machines, and they fucked it up. And, you know, they _shouldn’t_ be remorseless killing machines.
Mnemosyne
I’ve heard two different timelines on the order in which the ships were attacked, and I will be very curious to find out which one is correct. I’ve seen at least one story that said that the IDF changed tactics after the terminal fuckup of this attack, which is why the other ships were taken much more smoothly.
JR
I said it regarding David Bernstein in an earlier post, but I’ll say it again regarding anyone else trying to excuse this massacre:
If members of the IDF were videotaped raping a kitten, we’d be inundated with columns about how the cat deserved it and that it isn’t so bad because Hamas wouldn’t have even bothered to lube up first.
Linkmeister
As I said at my place:
FormerSwingVoter
Have you read anything the Jerusalem Post has to say about this? It’s some of the most insane, hysterical stuff I’ve ever seen anyone put into print. The stuff that is passed off as mainstream and objective news in Israel makes Glenn Beck look like a calm, rational, and peaceful voice of reason.
Redshift
The Goldberg article is indeed appalling, but I interpret the quote a little differently (especially in the context of his other quote from a general about the danger of being seen as crazy and incompetent.) Maybe I’m being too optimistic, but I see the “amazing” bit as saying that Israel is lucky it didn’t turn into a bigger bloodbath considering the complete stupidity of the operation, not that the victims should consider themselves lucky.
If that interpretation is correct, I tend to agree with that person and the general who was cited that in addition to all the other damage, one of Israel’s chief strengths for decades has been the perceived invincibility of its armed forces, and from the Lebanon war forward, the right wing seems determined to repeatedly use them in ways that undermine that narrative.
FlipYrWhig
So, how many people do you think approve of this action by Israel but were terribly upset by Waco and Ruby Ridge?
FormerSwingVoter
Also, while I automatically doubt everything that comes out of FDL, is there any truth to this stuff?
http://firedoglake.com/2010/05/31/israeli-commandos-kill-unarmed-civilians-in-international-waters/
They’re claiming that the flotilla was being fired upon after raising a white flag. With video evidence that I can’t see here from work.
MattR
@FlipYrWhig: Eh, I don’t have much problem with the group of elite commandos being “remorseless killing machines”. The problem is the government choosing to use those killing machines in a situation where killing was not the goal .
Immanentize
FlipYrWhig:
Sarah Palin?
ellaesther
I know I keep chiming in, but I’ll just keep doing it:
1) You are correct – many or most Israelis either don’t see how the world sees Israel and/or they do, but they don’t care, because the world has always been against us, so why should we be surprised?
2) By “most,” however, I do not mean all, by any stretch. I had a lengthy conversation with my oldest friend in Tel Aviv on Monday, and she is beside herself — and among the things shes says about the government is “don’t they see how the world sees us?” I was at a J Street lunch yesterday at which former Shin Bet head (and former commando) Ami Ayalon spoke, and he was very clear on the stupidity of trying to spin the flotilla raid as anything other than what it was (and he added, re: the gov’t – “as sailors say: If the captain doesn’t know where he’s going, no wind in the world will bring him there.”) You have the Israelis who protest on the weekly in East Jerusalem, the Israelis in the organizations I’ve mentioned here twice already (Combatants for Peace and the Bereaved Families Forum), you have the Israelis in B’tselem, which did most of the research that you find in the Goldstone Report, etc, etc, etc — as well as the plain folks Israelis like me, my husband, my husband’s (still in Israel) family, my friends, the people who have been going to protests since the raid, and the folks in my Twitter feed who are beside themselves (as one of my followers/followees wrote today: “I’m ashamed, angry, and stunned. But mostly I’m sad.”)
C) The read I get from soldier Goldberg quoted is not “What restraint we showed!” But “My God this was such a fuck up and it could have been so much worse! We’re so lucky that it wasn’t worse than it was!”
Midnight Marauder
@stevie314159:
I think there’s a major line in the son’s response that indicates he is not actually disgusted by the fact that the event itself happened; but rather, he is disgusted at how the event played out, in terms of how it changes the international perception of the IDF’s competency.
That does not sound like someone who is mourning the loss of life on the flotilla. That sounds like someone who is regretful the loss of life was not carried out in a more clean, efficient, and savvy manner by the IDF.
ellaesther
@stevie314159: That’s what I got, too.
PeakVT
I think that the Israeli government has used the victim card so many times that a lot of Israelis believe that they are always the victims.
JR
@Jerry 101:
Knives except for plastic ones or round-bladed butter knives are strictly forbidden.
I’ve lost more than one under-3″ pocket knife to TSA (though they always offer to let me mail it home).
geg6
I am completely over the entire Middle East, no exceptions even for Israel, a country I used to admire almost as much as I did my own. I say fuck them all. Let them slaughter each other and good riddance.
OT, but a tornado may be heading your way, John. Batten down the hatches.
ellaesther
And I’m going to chime in one more time with the fact that while the flotilla raid was fucked up, the occupation is actually far, far worse, and I’m a little infuriated that it took the death of nine foreign nationals for the world to go “Oh hey, that really sucks!”
More than 6,200 Palestinians have been killed by the Israeli military in the past decade alone, and about 2,000 Israelis whose deaths can also be laid squarely at the door of the occupation.
Mnemosyne
@FormerSwingVoter:
That’s another timeline issue that I haven’t seen anyone clear up. There were some apologists claiming that the white flag was a ruse to get the commandos to land on the deck of the ship, but at least some of the passengers said it was put up while they were being bombarded with tear gas but it was ignored.
ellaesther
(While at the same time I have someone [who I have just blocked] on my Twitter feed trying to engage me in an argument that “the Zionists” collaborated with the Nazis to kill Jews in the Holocaust).
dadanarchist
One thing I wish Beinart had talked about in his otherwise quite excellent article is the exodus of young, liberal Israelis out of the country.
Fed up with their government’s recalcitrance and with the increasing hold that the far-right has on Israeli politics, many young, liberal, cosmopolitan Israelis have given up and turned their back on the country. Go to London, Paris, Amsterdam, Copenhagen, San Francisco, New York, and you will meet them. Well educated, of liberal sensibility, and wanting nothing to do with the state of Israel.
I knew several Israelis here in NYC who fit this description. One even has settler parents who she loves deeply but with whom she disagrees strongly on policy. She despairs for Israel, but has given up all hope.
Add to this that the main immigrants to Israel at this point are conservative from the former Soviet bloc (that’s where Avigdor Lieberman came from) and hardline, ideological crazies from the United States, and you can see the depth of the problem.
And is it is becoming a vicious self-enforcing loop. As Israel’s government drifts further and further to the right, as the ‘Greater Israel’ Zionists and Settler Crazies establish further power over the Israeli cabinet and Israel’s politics and priorities, more and more Israeli liberals and leftists will give up on the whole enterprise and decamp for greener, less crazy pastures. And the crazies will become even more powerful.
MTiffany
As God’s Chosen People™, why should they have to?
Ed Marshall
@Jerry 101:
The big fat knife is a Jambiya. It’s a weapon, but it’s something people wear in certain Arab cultures, especially Yemenis. You get one for your fourteenth birthday as a coming of age thing.
Bruce (formerly Steve S.)
This is not a good analogy. A better one would be if the Cherokee c. 1840 were lobbing rockets into white territory.
They don’t care. They don’t think they need to, since the most powerful military-industrial entity in history gives them unconditional support. What I’ve been thinking for a while now, nervously, is that there simply is no answer within mainstream Israeli politics. Even if more moderate elements were to win the next election they’d just go back to the status quo that reined until a few years ago, which you might have noticed did not involve a solution to the Palestinian issue. No, the outright lunatic, fascist fringe will have to seize control of Israel before U.S. policymakers even think about reconsidering the reflexive support for everything they do. I hope I’m wrong.
Redshift
@Immanentize:
This is just speculation, but my suspicion is that their reputation was maintained for years by commanders who only put them into carefully planned operations, and that the wingnuts who’ve been in power in recent years instead believed their propaganda was reality.
Much like the Bush cabal who believed the propaganda that because we have the most powerful military in the world, of course we could knock off a crummy dictatorship with a small portion of our forces, completely lacking any understanding that a deterrent force can be much more effective if you never actually use it.
Citizen Alan
@PeakVT:
So they’re all teabaggers?
ellaesther
Dude!! You front paged me! I may or may not be doing a Snoopy Dance at this very minute….
Thank you John, and thank you for talking so much, and so honestly, about this whole story. It matters to America far more than most realize, and it’s good to be part of a community that does understand the extent to which it matters.
And now we have to take my 5th grader out to dinner to celebrate the end of elementary school (…) so I can’t even hang around to talk! But I’ll be back later. (Better a happy 5th grader than the flotilla raid anyway…).
Redshift
@dadanarchist: Damn, that’s depressing. I hadn’t heard about that.
ruemara
@MTiffany:
God should be more picky.
@dadanarchist:
Or, America, if we can’t quit shooting ourselves as progressives and accept incremental change vs purity with a side of failure. Plus sitting out local seat elections, off season elections and generally not giving a fuck until a presidency is at stake.
ellaesther
@Citizen Alan: I’ll just re-quote Uri Savir, lead Israeli negotiator in Oslo and former director-general of the Israeli Foreign Ministry one more time:
“[Israelis] may be the first conquerers in history who felt themselves conquered.”
robert green
i’ve had personal dealing with goldberg. there is just no way to EVER make a charitable interpretation of his views. he’s a credulous asshole. if he believes something, he will ALWAYS fit the facts around his pre-existing beliefs. always. his reporting on iraq was astoundingly wrong, poorly researched, and INTENTIONALLY so. he didn’t want any info that didn’t fit his notions, so he ignored or squelched it. he’s one of the reasons so many liberals supported the war. his views on israel are those of a raving lunatic, and in any sande society he would be on the street ranting at the moon.
here, he has the editor of the atlantic buying his daughter a fucking pony (no really, ‘s true) so that he could take his horseshit over to the atlantic from teh new yorker, because fail has no effect on our elites.
fuck him and his alleged sources.
Ailuridae
@ellaesther:
In all honesty, Cole should have added you to the front page a while ago.
ellaesther
(PS Not to be picky, but only I’ve only been writing about it for two decades. No need to make me longer in the tooth than life already has…). (Ahem). (Thanks again! Snoopy dance!)
nogo postal
“We have all been here before”
tap yer toes http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HiDOMuhpqUo
…then connect below
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3319663041501647311#
El Cid
I don’t see any actual likelihood of negative consequences to be imposed upon the Israeli government by the government of any Western power, nor do I see Turkey doing so, so why on Earth should Israeli policymakers care how many Palestinians or Palestinian aid activists it mows down?
ellaesther
@Ailuridae: Aw, thanks! Cole’s ok. He’s a grand guy, actually!
Right! Fifth grader! Out to dinner! Will check back later!
Immanentize
Redshift
Thank you — that was incredibly insightful
Imm
MattR
@ellaesther: This one’s for you.
JC
dadanarchist,
That is a good description, and it seems to ring true, though what do I know?
After reading a lot the last couple of days, I haven’t moved on from the fact that the collective punishment imposed upon Gaza, includes farmers not being able to import seeds, export products, and fathers not being able to fucking fish to feed their families.
When I see Biden, Clinton, Obama, or any big name anchor, start addressing the embargo – these sections of it – as ‘collective punishment’, then maybe I’ll believe there is a chance for a change. Until then, Israel and Egypt are guilty of a deep moral wrong, and the entire United States government is complicit by a sin of omission. And funding these two countries to boot!
Not that we aren’t complicit in a lot of other ways – could probably say the same about how the Turks are treating the Kurds, right?
Israel is, slowly, bit by bit, descending down to the level of their neighbors.
Can’t we just pour 1 trillion dollars into blanketing the United States AND the offshores (wind baby wind!), into one giant massive windfarm, and just leave the whole Middle East to their own devices?
Redshift
@MattR:
Especially since maritime law requires using reasonable force in enforcing a naval blockade, like disabling the ships and towing them to port. It’s not like these ships were capable of outrunning the navy. This is the thing I can’t figure out — what the hell did they think they were going to accomplish dropping commandos onto them in the middle of the night without warning? What did they think was going to happen? They would all surrender and they’d take control?
Actually, thinking about it, they probably did see it as one of two outcomes: either they’d back down when faced with armed soldiers, or they’d resist and Israel could claim they were “violent.” Makes you wonder if anyone in the chain of command considered the third possibility — that if you board in international waters in the middle of the night that there would be no coherent response, and the situation would go to hell.
Sigh.
bobbo
@Immanentize:
I think Entebbe was the last of a series of heroic episodes that began with the 6-day war in 1967. I remember in Hebrew school as a kid being moved by the story of the tiny little David state surrounded by 100 million Goliaths. I think this is the story those celebrating this disaster must still be telling themselves. It hasn’t been true for decades, but then look at the way so many Americans view the U.S. as the Greatest Country on Earth that can do no wrong. I don’t see it ever changing.
Ed Marshall
@ellaesther:
That’s a loaded way of putting it, but I recommend Brenner’s Zionism in the Age of the Dictators. I don’t think you would find anything in there wrong or knowing your politics even distasteful. The only people who come off as truly evil collaborators are the Stern Gang and ummm, that’s what they were.
on edit: It would be a stretch to just link them straightforwardly zionist—->holocaust and that’s probably extremely ill-advised and maybe a dog whistle to the folks with bad German history.
CaseyL
Disclaimer in advance: I am NOT defending Israel. Au contraire, I am *done* with Israel. However, if you really want to know how something like this happens, here is my attempt to analyze and explain:
Remember how crazy this country went after 9/11?
One attack by foreign terrorists on US soil. One. Admittedly, a pretty damn spectacular attack – but still, please bear in mind, it all took place on one day.
How crazy did the US go? How many liberals suddenly turned into pro-war Arab-haters, and how many conservatives suddenly went completely fucking insane? How long did the madness last?
Think about that. One attack. One day. An attack that was caused by US foreign policy carried out by US elected officials and, therefore, by inference, with the full support and approval of US citizens. So you could make an argument that we deserved it; and that would not for one instant change how much shock and grief and rage we felt.
OK, now: Israel. Has been subjected, over the course of its entire national existence to near-constant attacks from all its neighboring countries.
You could say “Too damn bad,” and I know many people do. But my point isn’t to justify Israeli brutality or make anyone feel sorry for the poor put upon Israelis.
My point is to ask, very simply, what kind of country you think ours would be – us, the US of A – if we were attacked as often, for as long, by as many different nations and groups, as Israel has been.
I’m asking us to remember how completely nuts and enraged and vengeful we were after a single (multi-pronged) attack on a single day. I’m asking us to remember how long we nursed our rage and grief, and how much damage our government did, using that rage and grief as an excuse.
…. and, remembering all that, try to put yourself in the head of the average Israeli, who has had to deal with attacks on a regular basis for as long as there has been an Israel.
You think they really care what anyone else says or thinks about Gaza, or Hamas, or the Palestinians?
I don’t. I think they probably care less about that than the US did about Arabs, in general, on 9/12/2001.
Mention has been made of Israel’s changing demographics: the more secular, more liberal Israelis leaving to seek saner, safer lives; their numbers replaced by Russian emigres, and increasingly-fanatic religious (Jewish) fundamentalist. These are important demographic changes, and they have horrific implications.
To return to the US comparison: imagine that, during the Bush/Cheney years, nearly everyone who was horrified by them and by US foreign policy left the US. Maybe we moved to Canada, or Europe, or Australasia… anyway, we left. And imagine that, with more and more sane, liberal Americans moved out of America, fundamentalists and teabaggers and war-porn neocons became the nation’s majority.
Now imagine the 2008 elections. Who do you think would have won, and what kind of policies do you think the US would be governed by right now? What kind of country would the US be right now? I think, personally, we’d be a lot like Israel in its current state of insanity and hatred and hair-trigger rage and habitual brutality.
This is not to excuse Israel. Dear god, no! The changes in Israel have been a long time in the making. Yitzhak Rabin was Israel’s last best hope, and he was murdered in 1995 by precisely the kind of person who now represents the Israeli mainstream.
This is not going to end well. No one in Israel has the strength or charisma or power or intellect to find a way out and have the country behind them. No one in the US has the stones to say “no” to Israel.
I have no idea what the end-point will be.
But I do know that the founders of the State of Israel, and the first generation of its leadership, would condemn what it has become. Not because they loved Arabs; but because they loved Israel, and this is not the Israel they had in mind.
Tecumseh
@Immanentize: The IDF used to be known for being both good AND smart. Lately they’ve been botching up everything, something due more to the leadership than the army (I think the army didn’t want to go into Lebanon a few years ago or at least hated the plan but I could be wrong about that). I also believe that’s what the soldier quoted above was saying, that they went into a mission for whatever reasons without any sort of information or game plan or intelligence and were thrown into a huge clusterfuck that had no need to be. The soldier’s embarrassed because he and the IDF wound up looking bad because of the incompetence of the people in charge.
On theory I read years ago was that the first generation of Israelis, the one’s who fought in ’48 for liberation and then all the subsequent wars were all dead or out of government and what’s left are a bunch of leaders who don’t know or appreciate what Israel’s been through and all the blood it shed. Yitzhak Rabin and Menachem Begin wanted peace because they’d had enough of fighting. They also had the weight to their names to get it. Avigdor Lieberman knows none of it.
El Cid
Using the model of restraint and self-defense shown by the IDF boarders of an aid vessel on the high seas with not the slightest authority and every sign of deadly intent, I guess this cop would have been justified shooting everyone around him had hospital staff started hitting him with chairs and wrenches, particularly since he was just following orders to terrorize an intensive care unit:
H/T Digby.
And had that cop been attacked by one of the nurses with, say, a lamp, he would have been very judicious and restrained if he merely responded by shooting 3 or 4 hospital employees instead of all of them.
Mnemosyne
@Redshift:
They thought they would have a great PR opportunity and look like tough guys in front of the whole world.
Instead, they look like schmucks who can’t protect themselves from a bunch of guys with axe handles without killing people.
Steeplejack
@Martin:
Not to mention the dreaded “rear admiral” (atomic wedgie). The leverage you can exert with those pliers . . .
I actually thought they were banned by the Treaty of Münster after the Thirty Years’ War.
FlipYrWhig
@bobbo:
It’s true that that image is the basis for a huge proportion of the pro-Israel sentiment among secular and liberal Americans. But IMHO that’s kind of like continuing to imagine the USA as thirteen plucky little colonies, or England as the last line of defense for liberty against those bloody Papists.
maus
@Midnight Marauder:
The
comment seems willfully ignorant to the actual firearms present, and goes along with your view of his “concern”.
El Cruzado
@Redshift: That and a couple more things:
1) They’ve become an occupation army more than a defense army. The skill sets are different and the morale generally much lower since both the cause and the daily grind suck.
2) Lots more True Believers in its ranks. Pretty much everyone (other than Arab Israelis) does several years of national service but as of late the settlers and rightwing are overrepresented within the career people.
Mark S.
I’m with Sully on this:
It seemed like ten years ago the consensus was that of course eventually there will be a two state solution, since anything else would require ethnic cleansing or apartheid. I guess Israel has decided apartheid ain’t so bad after all.
srv
There was a USS Liberty survivor on one of the ships, he is still being held. Excerpt fromthe book that came out last year:
FlipYrWhig
@CaseyL:
I’d like to know the scale of that. My admittedly cranky and skeptical sense of the situation is that there have not been “near-constant attacks.” There have been a number of flare-ups of terrorist violence _against_ Israel — AND a number of hot wars _by_ Israel causing massive casualties.
Israel definitely has a siege mentality, but my impression is that they willingly _adopt_ a siege mentality because that way they’re authorized (to themselves and the US at least) to be harsh. And there are few political rewards for being restrained, but many political rewards for being “tough.”
Rick Taylor
Apologists for Israel like to paint their country as besieged, attacked from all sides. The truth is, in the Western world at least, there’s a tremendous amount of good will if they’d show a little restraint. If Netanyahu would admit maybe they made an error, if he conducted a fair investigation, if they didn’t go out of their way to paint the unarmed citizens they’d killed as thugs and terrorists, people would be bending backwards to give them the benefit of the doubt, or laud them for taking for responsibility.
Rick Taylor
@CaseyL:
I’ve been thinking along those lines myself.
frankdawg
I wonder if a nuclear Iran might not be a good thing. Really for 50 years the US & the USSR stared each other down without actively killing each other because they knew to drop the big one would be the end for everyone. Maybe in Israel & Iran were looking through the bomb sights at each other.
But, sadly, since God is on both their sides & neither can do any wrong because God is directing them & death would not be a tragedy but a grand new adventure in paradise . . . sigh oh well, it was only a six day job said God.
Rick Taylor
__
More and more, Israel reminds me of the United States. We’re not particularly good at considering things from other peoples’ perspective either. See this recent article by Larison for an example.
__
The difference seems to be, as the world’s only super power, if we screw up and say invade a country under false pretenses and create chaos and devastation, there’s not a whole heck of a lot the rest of the world can do beyond making the best of it.
J. A. Baker
Israelis weren’t the only ones celebrating this act of state-sponsored piracy. Inveterate anti-Muslim bigot Marty Peretz creamed his pants when he found out.
Mark S.
@El Cid:
What in God’s name was the point of that exercise? That is the most fucked up thing I’ve read in a while.
El Cid
@Mark S.: Scared straight on terrorism preparedness? Fear Week?
El Cid
If you look on the map, Canada’s much larger than the United States. This means we are an underdog under existential threat from the giant to the north. We are surrounded by a giant.
maus
@Mark S.: If you don’t use up your quarterly budget, it goes away and you can’t request more resources.
@Rick Taylor: I’m missing where the difference lies, where Israel is somehow going to have more actual fallout and not just the same sort of impotent hand-wringing and fatigue of ethics.
Darnell From LA
I believe we see this kind of tone deaf behavior from Israel because the Israelis know EXACTLY what to expect from America, their all powerful ally.
To wit; Israel, collectively, could be found strangling kittens who are then promptly gutted and have their little kitten heads mounted on spikes while the members of the Israeli government dance around carrying said spikes screaming “EAT THE PALESTINIANS!”
And….the American response would be; “We regret the loss of innocent life, kitten or otherwise, and urge restraint. America remains committed to peace in the region…bla-bla-bla….”
Mark S.
@El Cid:
Are our kindergartners prepared for a terrorist/hostage situation? I think this program needs to be expanded.
maus
@maus: Though, actually, on re-read it seems like the dude was just crazy as hell and wanted to justify his 24-based masturbatory fantasies. I do wonder if he tried to bill the force for his off-duty “overtime”, or how many other people may have been aware of this beforehand.
Tsulagi
@Redshift:
Guessing what some genius thought they would accomplish is commandeering the ships far enough out at sea and during the night to prevent international news video coverage of the seizure. Maybe even thought the Israeli operators would be welcomed as liberators pelted with candies and flowers. We’ve had geniuses like that.
True that, general. But to make you feel better, we’ve done incompetent and crazy too. See Iraq.
Strongly guessing given the brilliance this thing had to have been planned and ordered by a civilian. Anybody seen Feith or Wolfie lately? Do they have new gigs with the Israeli Ministry of Defense? All the Israeli gov needs now to complete the package is Jewish Condi saying “No one could ever have predicted.”
Kyle
I completely agree with everything that John says regarding Israel and its seeming intent to ruin every positive relation it has in the world. But frankly, as an American, I find it difficult to condemn them for their actions. They have lived with terror threats for the entire time their country has existed. We had 9-11 less than ten years ago, and considering the havoc, bed wetting and aimless destruction we wrought after that, we have little or no authority to condemn anyone’s attempts to deal with terrorism.
PeakVT
Apologists for Israel like to paint their country as besieged, attacked from all sides.
Which is simply untrue, of course. Israel has been at peace with Jordan and Egypt – the two countries with which it has the longest borders – for thirty years now. Guestimating from a map, I’d say upwards of 80% of Israel’s land frontiers are uncontested (though obviously not unpatrolled). Israel’s main threat since Camp David has been from inside the territory it controls.
Calouste
@Rick Taylor:
Israel would a a tremendous amount of goodwill if they weren’t fcuking their friends in the West over by stealing and falsifying their citizens’ passports to make it easier to carry out assassinations. It’s not like the governments of say the UK and Australia can on one hand campaign to make their citizens aware of identity theft and its problems and on the other hand ignore well published state-sponsored identity theft by a supposedly friendly nation. And it’s not like Israel apologized after a few of their diplomats got expelled, their attitude was more like “we can do whatever the fcuk we want and the UK and Australia are overreacting”.
Tonight the MV Rachel Corrie is going to get within the distance of Gaza where they are probably going to be boarded. The Irish Taoiseach (Prime Minister) Brian Cowen has said that “If any harm comes to any of our citizens, it will have the most serious consequences”. Probably, as Ireland is of course not going to declare war or anything like that, “most serious” would be expelling the Israeli ambassador. Ireland was also one of the victims in the passport affair.
Chuchundra
Not that this is going to change anyone’s mind
Q&A: Is Israel’s naval blockade of Gaza legal? (Reuters)
San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea, 12 June 1994
Amanda in the South Bay
@Tecumseh:
Actually, its the fact that the IDF was founded by terrorists back in 48 that is the problem-they don’t have the sense of professionalism and competency that other Western armies have. Its a very pragmatic, thuggish attitude. I remember reading somewhere that Jewish veterans coming from Allied countries after WW2 were mistreated by the thugs
terroristswho fought in the Israeli War of Independence.Really, the Israeli’s need to stop fucking acting as if every single incident is an existential threat to Israel. That is the way they justify horrific overkill and civilian casualties.
celticdragonchick
@Chuchundra:
Just as applicably, Turkey can send her warships to protect her other flagged vessels, although that would mean she would be at war should Israel press the issue.
At the moment, it appears that Turkish public opinion definitely favors this.
Anybody note how Turkey is now being derided as an Islamist radical nation? Matthews did it on hardball tonight. Armbinder at The Atlantic mentioned that right wingers are demanding we cut diplomatic ties with Turkey (!).
I guess that air force base and missile defense radar along with 50 years of good relations don’t count because of teh muslim…
Calouste
@Kyle:
Spain has lived with ETA for decades and the UK has lived with the IRA (in all its different flavors) for decades.
Neither of them has seen it necessary to bomb the shit out of Bilbao/Belfast or shut the Basque country/Northern Ireland off from the rest of the world. And that despite things as the IRA blowing up the centre of one of Britain biggest cities and twice trying to assassinate the PM.
celticdragonchick
@Calouste:
I read yesterday that the foreign minister in Ireland was already talking of expelling the Israeli ambassador.
Of course, the Israelis are busy telling themselves that this is just proof of how the world hates them and how justified they are.
The victimhood narrative thing is unfuckingbelievable.
celticdragonchick
@Calouste:
Not to mention the IRA successfully assassinating Lord Mountbatten.
Ed Marshall
@Chuchundra:
Read a little further in your body of law:
102. The declaration or establishment of a blockade is prohibited if:
(a) it has the sole purpose of starving the civilian population or denying it other objects essential for its survival; or
(b) the damage to the civilian population is, or may be expected to be, excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated from the blockade.
103. If the civilian population of the blockaded territory is inadequately provided with food and other objects essential for its survival, the blockading party must provide for free passage of such foodstuffs and other essential supplies, subject to:
(a) the right to prescribe the technical arrangements, including search, under which such passage is permitted; and
(b) the condition that the distribution of such supplies shall be made under the local supervision of a Protecting Power or a humanitarian organization which offers guarantees of impartiality, such as the International Committee of the Red Cross.
104. The blockading belligerent shall allow the passage of medical supplies for the civilian population or for the wounded and sick members of armed forces, subject to the right to prescribe technical arrangements, including search, under which such passage is permitted.
That’s not quite so cut and dry is it? It’s the position of nearly the entire world (outside Israel and the U.S) that the blockade is itself illegal for that reason.
maus
@Kyle:
Right, let’s totally not hold anyone, including ourselves to any standards, because we’re totally fine with the nonexistent standards held to ourselves.
I fucking HOPE it calls attention to us, I have no idea how you can be so calm about any of this.@celticdragonchick:
I hope people stop treading on eggshells and actually show some backbone.
Mark S.
@celticdragonchick:
If it ever came down to NATO or Israel, the right wingers would dump NATO in a heartbeat.
Steve R.
I have no use for Hamas and the rocket attacks were stupid but it is okay to fight back when you are under blockade in an occupied territory.
Mark S.
@Ed Marshall:
Israel has already determined that concrete is a weapon of mass destruction, so I think they’re ok on that.
micah616
@Chuchundra: In the US, slavery was legal for a century. That doesn’t count the 200 years of slavery before the Constitution, nor the century of Jim Crow that came after the failed Reconstruction.
Laws and justice aren’t always the same thing.
To go full Godwin, everything Hitler did was legal.
ksmiami
But Kyle – despite 911, as a nation we were/are able to step back and rethink things, the all fear of the mooslim thing has lost its punch and we actually treat Muslim-Americans pretty well – emphasis on the American. We did not kick them out of their homes in Dearborn, or mansions in LA (Persian people know how to party) and build walls. Yes, we need to stop and investigate the torturing scum bags from Abu G and Gitmo, but at the end of the day, Americans will do the right thing even after all the wrong options are taken. I am not so sure Israel’s diseased psyche can be fixed.
Rick Taylor
@Chuchundra:
__
Even if we agree for the sake of argument the blockade is legitimate, that still doesn’t make the way Israel enforced it right (through a night time raid that ended up killing 10 people). Fred Kaplan, who supported Israel’s right to blockade Gaza, wrote:
__
__
There are still questions that need to be answered about exactly what happened. Eye witnesses claim that the Israeli navy used live fire before they boarded. Whether this is true or not I don’t know; under the conditions they might have been mistaken. There needs to be an independent investigation to see exactly what happened.
Bruce (formerly Steve S.)
@Chuchundra:
They can declare a blockade of the fucking Moon if they want to. And the rest of the world can ignore it if they want to. Virtually nobody recognizes the legitimacy of the blockade but also virtually nobody has the guts to do anything about it except a few activists.
Fern
@dadanarchist: My experience is that even some of the Russian and eastern European Jews are leaving Israel. A lot of them went to Israel in the first place to escape persecution and Israel was the only place they could go. In the middle-sized Canadian city where I live, the local Jewish community is recruiting them to move here – in part to bolster the size of the Jewish community here.
Barry
@Immanentize: “What I want to know is, why do the “superior forces” of IDF suck so bad? They got their asses handed to them in Lebanon, they acted like Russians in Chechnya when in Gaza—I mean, they are actually becoming the subjects I knew from the jokes about the Polish Army or the Italians from WWII. They just suck. ”
(my apologies for skipping to the end, in case somebody has already answered this)
An old book from the mid-80’s, when discussing the Falklands War, had a passage to the effect that there are police armies and real armies. Real armies train to fight other real armies. Police armies train (and operate) solely to oppress civilians, and secondarily to deter another country’s police army.
Israel now has only a police army. Note that their glory days of ground combat were in 1973 – that’s 37 years ago. A young 2nd LT who fought in that war could have put in 35 years, made colonel, and retired in that time. In all of those years, the Israeli Army has spent some massive proportion of its time stomping Palestinians, and the odd Lebanese. A militia with actual AK-47’s, machine guns and RPG’s – IOW, light arms – is a more heavily-armed opponent than they are used to.
Barry
@Linkmeister: ‘being ludicrous’? For a couple of decades. ‘Being *perceived by the powers that be in the USA as ludicrous’? In a couple more decades, at best.
Barry
@ellaesther: “[Israelis] may be the first conquerers in history who felt themselves conquered.”
Nah – everybody’s been able to do that.
me
Olbermann is really gonna get it for that segment. I thought he would never touch the flotilla issue He even brought up the paralyzation of American dialogue.
Barry
@CaseyL: “OK, now: Israel. Has been subjected, over the course of its entire national existence to near-constant attacks from all its neighboring countries.”
I’m totally willing to lay out the bodies on both sides, year by year, and see who is suffering from near-constant attacks, and who is nearly-constantly attacking.
someguy
@Mark S.:
I’m reasonably certain that it’s their own ethnic cleansing that they just guaranteed, not the Palestinians. Not sure if they knew that’s what it meant when they shoved that big pile of chips to the middle of the table. Doesn’t matter a whit to me; I just find it ironic that they believe the same neocon bullshit that so many Americans believe.
Honus
@celticdragonchick: At the very instant Israel was bombing the Liberty and killing US servicemen (for the purpose of allowing Israel to consolidate its gains of territory in the 1967 war) Turks were fighting beside Americans in Vietnam.
The Turks are a very proud people. They ruled what is now Israel for a whole lot longer than Israel has existed. I don’t believe they will be intimidated by Israel or the US. They won’t take the fact that their citizens were killed and their ships attacked lightly, and they won’t be the US’s bitch.
ellaesther
@MattR: Finally back to say: Aw! So sweet of you!
And check this out: The opening chords of that song served as the intro music to a very popular movie review spot on a very popular Israeli radio show back when I lived in Israel — and for a time, I actually lived one floor below the reviewer, Gidi Orsher. I associate that song with him as much as with Snoopy at this point.
My life – she is now full circle.
ellaesther
@Barry: Well, ok. But it’s nice to hear an Israeli say it!
Kyle
A bunch of kitchen knives – did they clear out the galley? And a bunch of tools? Wrenches and hammers and pliers and other tools one often finds…on a boat?
There’s no indication that all of these ‘weapons’ were actually used in the incident, bloodstains or other wear and tear on them. This is just stuff they found on the ship, very little of which would be out of place on any ship or in a suburban garage.
This reeks of, “Search the ship, collect anything you can find that looks like a weapon and pile it up here. We have to cover our ass”.
matoko_chan
@Honus:
no, the US is Israel’s bitch.
JL
“Are they completely blind to how the rest of the world is viewing this? Or do they just not care?”.
They don’t care.
In that sense they’re no different from the Bush/Cheney regime specifically, the GOP across the board, and their allies and enablers in the hierarchy of the democratic party.
DPirate
The guy is “shamed”, yes, but not for the obvious and correct reasons. He is ashamed that Israel sent in an ill-formed and under-manned military unit which was unable to immediately control the situation that they caused. He is not ashamed that Israel basically pulled a home invasion burglary/murder. Nor is he ashamed that Israel wishes to punish an entire population of people for the acts of a small extremist group.
Why not? This just pc-newspeak, or are there reasons?
Annamal
@Calouste NZ broke off relations with Israel for a year back in 2004/5 over exactly the same passport stealing/faking issue (least competent Mossad operation ever, seriously).
Israel actually wound up issuing an apology (without an admission that their “elite” intelligence agency was in any way involved in a clumsy attempt to steal a tetraplegic’s identity).
This stuff does not paint Israel in a good light and no amount of being a small beseiged country makes up for behaving more like a criminal organisation.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/jul/16/israel
Lisa K.
Reminds me of the time not so long ago that the US was so eager to invade Iraq when the rest of the world was condemning us. Piling on only makes arrogant offenders more intransigent, usually, leading to tragic results.
bdg
One note on the restaurants in Gaza: here, the Israelis are correct. There are a few high-end restaurants in Gaza, which I think are actually better than any in Ramallah or Jerusalem.
The reason they exist is because there is an upper class in Gaza who, unable to leave Gaza or buy cars or much anything else, need a place to spend money. They also cater to the journos and UN workers with large expense accounts.
They do not serve as an economic indicator, as even in the poorest places in Africa, you will find similar places for the elite.
I have done food security surveys with families in Gaza and it is astonishing to find how many people have not eaten a piece of meat or fresh fruit in over 6 months. They laughed at the absurdity of the questions.
Much of Gaza in the mid-90s was on the verge of thriving with a quality of life comparable to anywhere else in the Middle East. It is now perhaps the only place on earth that has gone backwards by decades. As researcher Sarah Roy calls it, Israel has imposed de-development on Gaza.
liberal
@Barry:
Even that noted tactical thinker, Noam Chomsky, makes that point. Armies used for occupation tend to deteriorate.
liberal
@Bruce (formerly Steve S.):
I was reading up on some links regarding the legality of Israel’s actions (from people not sympathetic to those actions).
Apparently you can enforce a blockage in international waters, but then the guy pointed out that it raised the issue of the blockades legality. He went on to say that his impression was that international law countenanced blockades of states only, and Gaza isn’t a state.
Putting aside the fact that the nature of Israel’s blockade is clearly one of collective punishment, which I assume is forbidden under Geneva.
liberal
@Rick Taylor:
IIRC news reports say that Obama admin says Israel should conduct the investigation.
Colin Laney
. . . bad intelligence, bad planning, bad execution . . .
More Tallyranding. This wasn’t a blunder; it was a crime.
liberal
@maus:
Yeah. The “who are we to judge Israel?” rhetorical gambit is very, very tiresome at this point.
liberal
@ellaesther:
Yeah.
I feel the same way about the Gitmo issue. Sure, it’s bad, and there’s the whole slippery slope argument about civil liberties at home, but compared to the order 10^5 deaths (and order 10^6 refugees) that resulted from invading Iraq, it’s peanuts.
memory
John, let me explain this to you. Israel DOESN’T CARE. And furthermore, they are right to not care. Israel can do whatever it wants as long as it has the full backing of the U.S. Government. All of the statements about Israel losing the full backing of the U.S. Government are based on delusions. America is run by two political parties. One political party has Christian Fundamentallists who are devoutly Pro-Israel as a major member of their coalition. The other political party has Jews who are devoutly Pro-Israel as a major member of their coalition. It is simply a political reallity that the most powerful nation in the world will back Israel no matter what it does. If you can’t acknowledge this then you are not living in real world. Israel can do what it wants and you and the Palestinians and the Turks and, well the President can shove it. That’s the way things are. It’s terrible; but it’s been that way your whole adult life. Maybe you should think about why you were a knee jerk supporter of Israel up until very recently. Then you will see why the U.S. Government will support Israel no matter what it does for the rest of your life.
Bruce (formerly Steve S.)
@liberal:
Let me try to be more clear. I don’t see the point of these legalistic arguments about the blockade. Nobody I’m aware of outside the Egyptian dictatorship recognizes the legitimacy of the blockade. Therefore, fuck the blockade. Even the U.S., in all its mealymouthed glory, says that they are “working toward” getting aid to Gaza. It would be nice if somebody with an actual fleet of warships escorted the aid ships into Gaza but, sadly, nobody but a few activists care enough about the people there to try.
Amanda
Great post and thanks for the link to the Peter Beinart piece, which included the bit about Israeli surplus being loopholed through the embargo. His piece is an excellent read and it may be the first time I’ve ever agreed with him. I learned a lot from it that I didn’t know before.
The arbitrary nature of the embargo, in my opinion, reveals that it’s really about control and punishment/humiliation.
maus
@liberal: And the horrible thing is, it’s not stated in good faith, because if they were serious about that rationale, they’re stating that we were just in performing our historical (and any current) atrocities.