In another good piece on the state of journamalism, Marc Ambinder proposes something that won’t work:
Rather than end my disquisition on a complaint or a tale of misery, I want to provide a constructive bit of advice as to how we can begin to revivify the honor to which we used to hold truth-tellers. Consider the narrow point that conservative criticism of President Obama is unusually and often bafflingly, even embarrassingly facile. There are plenty of conservatives who recognize this. I can name six: Ross Douthat. Matt Lewis. David Frum. David Brooks. Conor Friedersdorf. Liz Mair. There are many more. But they have no incentive to police their own side. The moment they speak out, they’re branded as apostates, and the conservative movement narrows even further. An impoverished opposition is bad for democracy. I subscribe to the Brendan Nyhan/Robert Frank notion that social shaming may well be a valid way for fact-checkers to convince more than a handful of people that the other side is simply wrong. Frum has done a serviceable job in calling out his fellow conservatives, but he does not possess the power or the infrastructure to shame people who cross a line. As Nyhan proposes, when someone like Frank Gaffney, who still gets invited to major events by reputable people, implies that President Obama a Muslim, he should be shamed into hiding by his fellow conservatives. (Shaming by liberals, or mere corrections, won’t work, and will often promote the myth).
It’s a silly suggestion, people like have Frank Gaffney have no sense of shame and neither do their fellow travelers at the Weekly Standard and National Review. I’m not even sure that Douthat et al. do.
The current system seems like a pretty comfy set-up for conservatives. The crazies can make money off their radio shows and Regenery books and wingnut welfare. The “respectable conservatives” can be hailed as VSPs for their occasional mild, mealy-mouthed criticism of the crazies.
Why change it over a small thing like shame?
Chuck Butcher
People do a lot of things for money…
Bill Rutherford, Princeton Admissions
Fuck, Douthat doesn’t possess the shame to apologize for the Chunky Reese Witherspoon incident or anything he wrote during his Harvard days.
Ed Drone
There was a book a while back about the loss of “shame” as a social-control mechanism, as I recall. The odd thing is, the book was from a conservative viewpoint, and no modern conservative would be caught dead trying to use shame as a tool. Right-whingers don’t have a sense of shame, it seems, and lefties don’t have that much to be ashamed of, unless it’s failing to shut the righties up when we had the chance (or did we ever really have that chance?).
Ed
DJShay
For a professional political observer, Ambinder seems awfully naive. Has he not been paying attention since 2008? This may have worked in the 80s, but since Clinton was president, the right has been on this path.
Cat Lady
I wouldn’t care if all of the wingnut welfare queens were all just talking to each other, but they’re on Hardball, and MTP, and This (Hacktastic) Week, etc. I would think the shame would come from the hosts and the producers of those shows, but it’s all just bread and circuses now 24/7 and payroll has to be made. I’m convinced most wingnuts don’t believe half of what they say anyway, and the rest of the Villagers play along, since fact findin’ is hard, and truth has a well-known liberal bias. Journalism is dead.
Comrade Javamanphil
Nobody could have predicted that a movement dedicated to the pursuit of self interest and nothing else would care more about making money than being proved liars.
The current system is a feature (the only one), not a bug.
Xenos
Shame as a social and psychological force is pretty much destroyed in the modern corporate society. Most of our economic interactions are with and through non-human entities that demand shamelessness from their human agents (executives, advertisers, public relations people). That shamelessness has especially become present in those corporate agents in the political field and in the punditocracy that explicitly work on behalf of corporations – Republicans and Conservadems.
sukabi
sociopaths don’t have shame. period.
And of the list of “journalists” that he cites, there isn’t an actual journalist in the bunch.
Ambinder fails on all counts.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
One of the foundational principles of democracy is the idea that there are self-imposed limits to the pursuit of political power, that there are things we simply do not do, for the sake of the system itself.
Otherwise, why bother with campaigns and elections and all that fuss and bother, when we can just slug it out in the streets with RPGs and tanks, and after the smoking ruins have been conquered God will turn out to have been on the side of the big battalions and the winners will get to write the history books?
We have democracy because we decided we don’t want to go there. Been there done that, actually, and it sucked.
The problem is, the longer we go with this small-d democratic mindset internalized, the more we think that simply because there are some things you shouldn’t do, it does not in fact translate to that there are things that you can’t do or that there will never arise a person or a movement who won’t do them.
Any mature democracy is vulnerable to people who are willing to cheat and are good at it. Hence Joe McCarthy and his ilk.
The only way to prevent a sort of creeping gangrene in a system of democracy is that every once in a while one of the cheaters, who tried to game the system, has to be taken down.
Big time.
Pour encourager les autres.
And that hasn’t happened in our era, not yet anyway, not on a big enough scale.
Who in politics has been punished in a spectacular way for being a lying liar, who in journalism has been sacked in the most humiliating fashion for being a tool?
Until that happens, the shameless liars will continue to lie without hesitation and the press corpse will continue to give off a bad smell.
Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle
@sukabi: So what do you do when they can’t be shamed? Mocking, in the Stewart/Colbert mode isn’t enough.
PaminBB
Shame also requires self-awareness, an attribute in short supply in the wingnut welfare crowd.
Violet
It’s an interesting suggestion, but it won’t work. Instead Ambinder should be suggesting that conservatives rediscover courage. Someone like Frum who points out when conservatives have completely lost it is courageous. There should be more like him. I’m not in support of the conservative viewpoint (at this point I don’t eve know what it is, except white entitlement and screaming about brown people), but I do think that not having a halfway reasonable opposition party is damaging to the country.
Conservatives should not be encouraged to shame other conservatives. They should be encouraged to be courageous and stand up and speak the truth.
Although truth has a well known liberal bias, so I’m not sure that’s going to work for them in the long run.
PeakVT
Is it that conservative pundits have no sense of shame, or that they don’t see themselves as having done anything wrong when they lie? If conservatives are mainly governed by tribe and hierarchy, shame for them would come from dissenting with the tribe or challenging the hierarchy. Telling whoppers and getting called on it wouldn’t cause shame, if it was done in service of tribe and hierarchy.
Either way, shame won’t change anything.
ellaesther
You know, back when I was a practicing journalist, I was responsible, over the course of about fifteen years, for three pretty egregious errors that made it into print (that I know of, of course).
One was never caught (even by me, until years later); one was not strictly my fault, but it was a “buck stops with me” kind of deal, and a correction was issued; the last was my fault, was caught by a reader, and a correction was issued.
I still squirm when I think of these things. They still shame me.
Now, I think more highly of the profession and the people in it that a lot of the folks here do (*cough*dougj*cough*), but I can certainly see many, many failures of omission and commission, and honest to God, how do some of these people get up in the morning? I still want to commit hari kari because 15 years ago, I wrote that Cheb Khaled was Egyptian, not Algerian!
That is all.
DougJ
@PeakVT:
That’s about right, I think.
maus
I don’t think the dude understands which conservatives are shamed (by all aspects of the media and public) into silence.
@ellaesther:
I think very highly of the profession, when practiced by professionals. These people are no longer in demand and employed, it seems.
El Cid
Is there any evidence that conservative ideologues even sense that there’s a substantive difference between the truth and the falsehood, the verifiable and the mythical, the accurate and the baseless?
I just don’t see it. It’s not just that they don’t know that one is not the other, they do. It’s not that they just don’t care about the difference. It’s that they don’t regard the distinction as worthy, as important, as something they should care about.
Truth is what gets them more power and their allies and funders more wealth and power.
Falsehood is anything that stands in their way.
This is true of the U.S. foreign policy establishment of either political party (Israel was the victim of a brutal attack by Turkish aid terrorists!), but always Republicans to a greater extreme.
Svensker
So long as there is an entire television network devoted to spreading propaganda and lies, it’s hard for anyone else to get a word in edgewise. He’s talking Frank Gaffney? What about Glenn Beck and Sean Hannity — they both lie day in and day out, make up the most absurd shit possible, and get paid big bucks and lotsa adoration for their trouble. Nor should we forget the radio bigmouths, especially Rush. The day when a major “conservative” politician stands up and says these guys are shameless and lying their fat asses off, then perhaps something will change. Until then, the GOP is a rancid bag of crap.
I just got served up a huge sack of shit by a cousin about the Hamas Terrorist Jihadists who rightly were killed on the “humanitarian” (ha ha) ship and Israel has a right to do whateveritwantstowhomeveritwants because they’re all going to die and besides, good guys, vomit, blarg, crap crap crap. Plus it’s 90 degrees and humid and I HATE this weather. And I hate this rancid putrid disgusting lying sack of douchebag crap propaganda that we’re served up all the time and grrrrrrrrrrrr.
Jenn
@Violet: @Violet:
Actually, he sort of does in his next paragraph:
sukabi
@Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle: at this particular point in time, I don’t think there’s much that can be done, except for folks to stop paying attention to them…. and concentrate on reforming the way media functions….
and what I mean by that is, develop media outlets that don’t rely on major corporations for funding… sever the hold corporations have on information dissemination… there’s a reason that these hacks are allowed to continue spewing lie after lie… and it’s because they are serving a purpose. They are “shaping” political discussions & public policy in a way that suits big money. And they function as a distraction from reality for the folks that get their info from O’Reilly, Hannity, Beck, Limbaugh and the like.
Violet
@Jenn:
Yeah, but framing it as shaming doesn’t necessarily encourage good behavior. Framing it as being courageous is a lot more inspiring. People want to be courageous. Most people don’t want to shame their colleagues.
60th Street
If Ambinder and his ilk weren’t so deathly afraid to be labeled as part of der librul media then maybe the Gaffneys and Douthat’s of the world would actually start fearing for their jobs as more people caught on and joined forces to debunk their lies and counter their misinformation.
The problem isn’t that we have conservative propaganda masquerading as news and journalism, it’s that people like Ambinder and especially organizations like Politico who consider themselves objective are routinely guilty of legitimizing conservatives for fear of being labeled liberal and because they profit from instigating partisan warfare between the right and the left. Not to mention that WaPo and the NYT hire those clowns to maintain the utter charade America perceives as “balance”.
Redshirt
What I find amazing, in a sad way, are that these modern Repugs are the pre-eminent practitioners of post-modernism this world has ever seen. There is no truth, only spin; the narrative dictates the meaning; black can be white, or grey, or blue, depending on the time/date/circumstance. Nothing matters but power. Etc.
And yet of course, they speak of “traditional values” and “original intent” yadda yadda.
Jenn
@60th Street:
Did you actually read the article?
Jenn
@Violet:
Nice point.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
@Redshirt:
Agreed. Today’s right are shocking in their cynicism and their capacity for doublethink. Not just doublespeak, but doublethink as well.
My theory is that something broke in the US when the Soviet Union collapsed. A tectonic shift in the psychology of our politics occurred circa 1989-1991 when in a very short period of time we were suddenly deprived of our greatest enemy, and today’s PoMo Right is a symptom of that.
Tom Q
The central flaw in Ambinder’s piece — or, better, the reason why he’ll never see what he advocates on any grand scale — is that the entire modern conservative movement is built on a sort of blustery belligerence, in the service of which admitting error is the ONLY thing that would truly bring one of them shame.
handy
@Jenn:
The problem I think 60th Street brings up though and is worth pointing out is that Ambinder takes this kind of tepid stance about “reasonable conservatives” Doughat and Friedersdork and the meanie wingnuts who call them names (so that we all feel good about ourselves because Ambinder affirms how the “other side” can’t take pushback from their own). But he doesn’t address the larger problem in journalism where our liberal Times and WaPo consistently run wingnut-driven memes and scandals up the flagpole. I think this is a weak point in an otherwise good article.
PeakVT
@ThatLeftTurnInABQ: My theory is that something broke in the US when the Soviet Union collapsed.
I think what happened is that the country ossified. As the “victors” of the Cold War, a lot of Americans felt (and still feel) their entire way of life circa 1987 was validated. The fact that the entire world continues to change despite what they feel is simply driving them crazy. The Cold War forced people to stay in touch with at least some of reality. It’s end released those that don’t like change from acknowledging facts.
ellaesther
@maus: As a highly professional journalist who is neither in demand nor employed, I think I may have to agree with you there.
ellaesther
@PeakVT: I think there’s also something to the idea that we had had a clearly identified enemy for so long that when we found ourselves without one, we almost didn’t know what to do with ourselves.
BruinKid
Then they should get a pie in the face the next time they appear on live cable TV. Show them to be the clown they are.
Bill Murray
@PeakVT: Not that this isn’t true, but these problems with conservatives/Republicans go back far longer than that. They were hoary cliches back when I was a youngster in the early 1970s. Of course there is a certain amount of conservatism that is petrified ab initio
Bill Murray
@Ed Drone: I would say modern conservatives don’t use shame on other conservatives, but they have no problem shaming Democrats. For instance, I think much of the defense debate is centered on shaming the Democrats into supporting astronomically high defense budgets to “support the troops”. Also true in the tax debates “it’s your money” is classic shame framing
asiangrrlMN
I would just have to say, looking at his list, I don’t know Liz Mair or Matt Lewis. Of the rest, I will half-give him Frum, but I disagree on the rest, especially Douthat.
@El Cid: I think you’re onto something. It’s the reason they are rewriting textbooks and believing that the earth is six thousand years old (or whatever)–they want to believe it’s true, so therefore, it must be true. That’s for the believers, at any rate. I think some do it just for the monies and because there is no fall-out for flat-out lying.
maus
@ellaesther: Orrrrr we can do just fine without “the enemy” but the people in charge decided that it’s safe and convenient to continue to operate our media as a propaganda outlet that pats itself on the back about how “free” they are without ever exercising the right.
@Bill Murray:
Yeah, but that’s only for military contractors and equipment, not for forces and aftercare.
Jenn
@handy:
On the other hand, it’s one blog post. I think it’s unrealistic to expect it to cover every criticism of journalism we might have. Moving on to one of his posts from today, I think he addresses your point:
I guess it’s just that I’ve been bitching and moaning about the state of journalism for quite some time. And I’m a bit psyched because here’s someone with a platform and a decent-sized megaphone, who’s made a decision about what’s important to him as a journalist, and is addressing some of the issues we’ve all been complaining about. Every additional voice out there advocating for real journalism gives me a little hope for change. Ambinder coming out swinging. Jake Tapper (for all of his faults) agreeing to have fact-checkers comb through his show. Etc. Yeah, it may be like Canute trying to hold back the tide of the David Gregorys of the world, but still!
dm
Lack of shame is an essential quality of modern conservatism. It’s why Peak Wingnut can only exist as an idea. If modern conservatism could be policed by shame it wouldn’t be modern conservatism anymore.
PeakVT
@Bill Murray: Certainly true; conservatives have always fought change, and always will. I just think it got worse after 1987. I can’t think of a single domestic policy area where the Republicans have evolved significantly since then. (To be fair ‘n’ balanced, the Democratic establishment has evolved only a little bit more.)
ice9
Not substantive, sorry, but ‘revivify?’ Why not just ‘revive’? Spirit of Buckley, I suppose.
ice
Sheila
I rather believe everyone has a sense of shame, but maybe it is those who are addicted to shame who act in such a way that they get a double dose: shame in regard to the original unscrupulous act coupled with shame at exhibiting no shame for it? Or maybe not.
Doctor Science
Shamelessly, I shall repeat what I said there:
And what do we call “elites” who have “a passion for the truth”? Theoretically, we call them “journalists”.
The problem is not with some vague “elites” in general, the core of the problem is with journalists specifically. Journalists should be shaming *each other*, that’s what makes something a *profession*. Doctors police doctors, lawyers police lawyers, scientists police scientists.
Journalism used to be a profession. Now it is a job, and journalists are employees, answerable to whoever signs their paychecks. And that’s why a lot of great journalism these days is done by unpaid bloggers: because they get no paychecks, they are answerable to their readers, the blogging community, and their idea of The Truth. With no money in the mix, social shaming actually has an effect. Paid journalists are employees in the entertainment industry, a field notoriously short on shame.
flounder
You know who does have the “power of infrastructure” to right the nonsense? Marc Ambinder and his buddies. I was talking to a Canadian geologist the other day (I’m at a workcamp in South America) about the sorry state of American journalism (re: the scandal chasing and he said/she said press), and I said there is no price to be paid for being a lying ridiculous freak. My Canadian geologist friend said that reporters needed to hold people’s feet to the fire via fact-check. I suggested we need to have the traditional style media have a pow wow and decide a simple formula where if you lie to much or make too many incendiary statements you get ignored and don’t get to be on TV or in the newspapers anymore.
I used the example of John Kyl and Lindsey Graham lying to the Supreme Court via phony amicus brief during the Hamdan case in 2005.
You know what price they have paid for trying to pull a fast one the USSC ? Zero. Now what if the broadcast networks and a couple major newspapers declared that they would no longer accept statements from Jon Kyl and Lindsey Graham because if you are the sort of person who lies to the Supreme Court you are probably the sort of person that will lie to Jake Tapper?
I guarantee that if the big news boys, who still pull a lot of weight, had something like the “fact-check, repeat offender, official time-out” system, where if your trustworthiness went into the red zone you got shunned for six months and you were left to pout to Fox and your Facebook page, I guarantee the scale of B.S. would dial back at least from the pompous types like Graham, Kyl, Peter King, Orin Hatch, etc.
My system is unworkable, but I bet it is less unworkable than Ambinder’s.
60th Street
@Jenn: Unfortunately, I did read it and I suppose that I’m not really as impressed as it seems I should be. And, while I’m thankful that Ambinder’s undergone somewhat of an awakening, I’m not gonna give him a medal for journalistic bravery for pointing to things like gay marriage, climate change and evolution and proclaiming them as “settled” and counting himself amongst the ranks of the reasoned. He’s gonna have to do better than that.
Apparently he’s decided that there are classes of stupid amongst the GOP ranks that can and should be weeded out in order to lend the Republican brand more credibility. That way he doesn’t have to feel ashamed, himself, for legitimizing Republican idiots or validating their actions like he’s done repeatedly in the past. It’s a shameless angle in itself.
He’s no Sully, yet, and that ain’t saying a lot.
Are you familiar with Ambinder’s. body. of. work?
tkogrumpy
@Ed Drone: Lefties don’t have much to be ashamed of. Really? I’m slightly to the left of Leon Trotsky and I have plenty to be ashamed of.
tkogrumpy
@PaminBB: You got that right.
Steeplejack
@ThatLeftTurnInABQ:
Right on, bro’. Seconded.