When Helen Thomas suggested that Israel’s Jews “go back to Germany and Poland” – I suppose we should be grateful she didn’t quite say “go back to the gas ovens” – that wasn’t an “anti-Zionist” comment, that was a racist comment directed at Jews.
Here’s the actual quote from Thomas:
Q: Any comments about Israel? We’re asking everyone today.
Thomas: Tell them to get the hell out of Palestine
mumbling
Thomas: Remember, these people are occupied, and it’s their land. It’s not German, it’s not Poland.
Q: So where should they go?
Thomas: They can go home.
Q: Where is there home?
Thomas: Poland. Germany.
Q: They should just go back to Poland?
Thomas: And America and everywhere else.
Personally, I thought that was obnoxious enough on its own- sounded to me exactly like the nativists here in the states who loudly proclaim anyone of Hispanic descent can “go back to Mexico.”
But the question is why Mark Kleiman and so many others feel the need to embellish? She clearly was talking about actions of the state of Israel, and clearly was not suggesting they “go back to the gas ovens.” Unless, of course, Kleiman remembers some gas ovens in America during WWII that I am unaware of. And there are, to my knowledge, no such ovens operating in America, Germany, or Poland, today. To read Mark, you’d think she was screaming “JEWS BACK TO AUSCHWITZ.” She wasn’t- she was spouting some pretty boilerplate rhetoric about Israel occupying Palestinian land.
In the reality based community, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts. That seems fair.
Hunter Gathers
Evidently, if you don’t go the full Godwin every time somebody says something stupid about Israel, you are an anti-Semite.
Sapient
Please. Her first inclination was “Poland, Germany,” sites of the most horrific crimes of the Holocaust. The following remarks were an attempt to moderate what she’d just said.
Okay, she’s 90 years old, and her comment maybe should have been ignored. But it was an anti-Semitic comment, not an anti-Zionist one. I’m becoming less and less supportive of Israel’s “right” to exist every day – the Israeli government acts like a bunch of thugs and support for the country is becoming way more expensive to the U.S. than whatever it’s “worth,” but I love Jewish people and would never favor forcing any Jew to go back to the site of the Holocaust.
John Cole
Bullshit. You don’t just get to assume the worst and then make up what was inside her head.
aimai
Like everything else reported, and half listened to, and half understood, Helen’s statement has been misquoted. But despite those misreadings and mishearings her actual statement is nonsensical on its face. Citizens of Israel *don’t have the option* except if they have dual citizenship of “returning” anywhere. One of the sore points in the eternal botched negotiations between Israel and the Palestinian people is the “right of return.” The Israelis don’t want to give it to the Palestinians, and the Germans, Poles, Russians, Ethiopians, Syrians, Iraqis, Egyptians and everyone else doesn’t propose to give it to the Israelis. Israelis don’t have any right of return to Germany, Poland, or anywhere else by virtue of the birth of their ancestors in a given region. Except Israel. That’s the whole point of Israel. Its the one place where when you go, they have to take you in, for Jews.
It was an amazingly stupid statement. And it remains an amazingly stupid statement even if Mark Kleimann misheard it, or misunderstood it, or against the background of his personal experiences with being treated as an alien/enemy inside his own country (the US) he took badly.
–aimai
Personal note: My family left Russia in the late 1890’s to escape pogroms and political oppression. My husband’s family came in the late thirties–except for the portion of their family that remained behind are were entirely slaughtered with the whole fucking village by the Poles. Two guys who escaped ended up in Israel, one by way of Ulan Bator. Which country are my children supposed to go back to? If Helen’s diktat makes sense applied to Israel doesn’t it also make sense applied to American Jews? If not, why not?
John Cole
I don’t think anyone disagrees.
stuckinred
So, you get to assume the best and make up what was inside her head instead?
fucen tarmal
it doesn’t fucking matter, the diversion has been created. the discussion about helen thomas will supercede any discussion of the u.s role in israel, israel’s actions, all of it….
John Cole
@stuckinred: WTF- I’m dealing with the direct quotes.
donnah
Helen Thomas was a symbol to Republicans and having her gone was something the Right had wanted for a long time. They resented her tough questions and her longevity through the Bush years. But she was just as tough with Obama.
This was another trophy for the Right. They would have hounded her out of the press corps one way or another. Ari Fleischer has his handprints all over Helen’s back on this.
I’m sorry to see her go. She is a tough woman, smart and stubborn. I hope she takes some time to write her life’s story (if she hasn’t already) and tells all she knows.
And while we’re reading people’s minds and throwing careers out the window, how about Pat Buchanan? Shouldn’t his racist fanny have been ousted a long time ago?
stuckinred
@John Cole: gotcha
demo woman
Ever wonder what would have happened if the Jewish people were given Texas as a settlement instead of a section of the middle east?
p.a.
file under ‘it would be foolish not to speculate’, but I know ‘Thomas’ and ‘Joseph’ are often Anglicizations of Lebanese surnames. May explain some part of her anger. Just wondering…
Michael
I’d still like to hear some Likudnik tell me what the USA gets for supporting Israel. I know they’re our BFFs and bestest allies ever, but I’m scratching my head trying to figure out what consideration we’re getting out of the deal that isn’t directly related to the mission of supporting Israel.
And no, you don’t get to say anything about “gaining the blessings” of your psychopathic, needing-to-be-straightjacketed passive-aggressive racist made up deity. You have to give me secular reasons.
PeakVT
Wouldn’t it be nice if we could discuss the Levant without it turning into an internet-wide Rorschach test?
El Cid
@demo woman:
We’d have better textbooks, and great BBQ of different beef cuts.
Michael
By the way, Likudniks – you’re cheapening the Holocaust in public discourse, much the same way as the constant bleating invocation of “that’s socialist” and “that’s leftist” by the wingnuts has trivialized those terms. Invoking “the ovens” on this is just plain fucking stupid.
Michael
By the way, Likudniks – you’re cheapening the Holocaust in public discourse, much the same way as the constant bleating invocation of “that’s soc!alist” and “that’s leftist” by the wingnuts has trivialized those terms. Invoking “the ovens” on this is just plain fucking stupid.
stuckinred
@El Cid: Ask the Kinkster.
“I even went so far as to become a Southern Baptist for a while, until I realized that they didn’t hold ’em under long enough.”
Kinky Friedman
Violet
Jews come to Israel from all over the world. Has she suggested they go back to Ethiopia and Brazil, it might not have had the same emotional impact as suggesting they go back to Germany and Poland.
Germany and Poland were the sites of some of the most notorious and horrific concentration camps, and the people in charge were German. I’m no expert on Judaism, the Holocaust and WWII, but even I did a double take that, out of all the countries in the world, she picked those two as her top two suggestions. While factually she did not say anything about gas chambers, the choice of those two countries packs an emotional wallop that made even someone like me shudder.
@John Cole
How does the State of Israel go back to Germany or Poland? Now I’m confused?
stuckinred
Well, I just said that Jesus and I were both Jewish and that neither of us ever had a job, we never had a home, we never married and we traveled around the countryside irritating people.
Kinky Friedman
I suggest ya’ll lighten the fuck up because this conversation is going nowhere.
brantl
@Sapient: Wrong, just wrong. You’re mindreading, and I’m more sure that you can’t, then you have any reason to believe that you can.
El Cid
Helen Thomas, who knows what journalism is, realized that above and beyond any offense from her statement, it would end her ability to be considered a credible journalist with a professional objectivity. (Not an objectivity of the soul, just the ability to act like something professional, unlike the New York Times or Washington Post any time it’s time to go to war.)
There aren’t really negative consequences for saying horrible things about Palestinian Arabs, Arabs in general, or Muslims.
Yglesias is not a reporter with the White House press corps, and, also, hey, they’re just fucking Arabs, so, you know, fuck ’em. And he just said we have to consider whether or not these bags of DNA should be violently expelled to Jordan, Syria, Egypt, whatever — it’s not like he suggested they leave and go to Dearborn.
He writes different things now, though, so, it’s all good. As long as you only say awful things about worthless people, it can be worked out.
Via Sadly, No!’s HTML Mencken.
Anya
I wonder if her comment would have been seen in a different light if she said that the illegal settlers should go back where they came from. Personally, I do not get why someone from New York, Morocco, London or Toronto has a right to occupy Palestinian land.
brantl
Anybody else notice, sapient is mis-named?
El Cid
@PeakVT:
Upon reading your comment, I saw a horse descending from a cloud. Or maybe a clown.
t jasper parnell
@demo woman: Or Alaska.
EconWatcher
Demo Woman:
Check out Michael Chabon’s fairly recent novel “The Yiddish Policemen’s Union” (or something like that). Premise is that the State of Israel failed and Jewish people were instead given a temporary leasehold in a district of Alaska.
EconWatcher
D’Oh! t jasper parnell beat me to it
aimai
Anya,
I would have had no problem with her saying, as lots of people have, recent immigrants to Israel should not be encouraged and subsidized in occupying Palestinian land. And maybe that’s what she meant. Who knows. It was badly phrased. Of course it seems to have escaped your notice that there are plenty of recent immigrants to Canada, say, from Pakistan. Why are those immigrants “legal” and and immigrants to Israel from outside “illegal?” Do you have some notion that some countries can’t choose who to have immigrate and others can? The *immigrants* aren’t illegal, but the settlements may be.
aimai
GVG
I think she’s also become sort of senile. How can she over look the fact that the Jews who immigrated to Israel, did so decades ago? There is no “return” to where they came from. The came from Israel. So it may have been a mistake to create the state of Israel out of a part of the middle east, its happened decades/generations ago and most if not all the people who did it are dead. This woman is supposed to be a top national reporter? Eh, its just so stupid even without the predjudice that is shown.
You can’t undo the past and the people NOW have rights too. Both Israeli’s and Palastinian’s. Ignoring one set because you feel sorry for the others is how we got here.
Mark
@donnah – Helen Thomas has already written her autobiography – I was unfortunate enough to get it as a christmas gift. To quote Bart Simpson: “It was self-serving and filled with many glaring omissions.”
I didn’t know much about Helen Thomas before I read her autobiography, but it was 416 pages of the kind of self-congratulation that would land her on this blog’s shit list. If she’s to be believed, she told a Japanese ambassador that she “still remembers Pearl Harbor” and testily asked Helmut Kohl if he knew “who won the war?” She wastes many pages discussing the gridiron dinner, presidential musical talents, Sam Donaldson’s ability to make a grand entrance, Jimmy Carter playing softball with male reporters and LBJ’s penchant for root beer.
MMonides
John,
As a Jew I must *STRONGLY* disagree with your interpretation. Thomas specifically points to Germany and Poland, homes to the Jewish Holocaust, not once but twice in that conversation. She had to be *prompted* to point to other countries Jews could go to.
I’m a convert, so this type of thought is not ingrained in me, but the Jews in my family all came to the same conclusion immediately, AFTER learning she said Germany and Poland specifically. They had been defending her, somewhat, when the reports still vaguely alluded to her saying Jews should “go back to Europe.”
It’s not embellishment; it’s a clear reading of what she was implying. It was ugly, it was awful. And worst of all, from reports coming in (see Howard Kurtz this morning) it was already a known problem with her.
Yours,
Media Maimonides
PS — What Aimai said.
El Cid
@aimai: FWIW, basic reference facts regarding the Jewish population of Israel.
SomeCallMeTim
It just occurred to me that Thomas’s statement would seem to fit pretty comfortably next to all manner of similar statements by anti-colonialists after WWII. Maybe I’m wrong–and I think I’m basing this on the movie, so you know–but didn’t that fascist Gandhi say something similar?
EconWatcher
Anya:
I’m on the side more appalled by Thomas’s comment–I think she more than deserved to get canned–but I completely agree with you. The most fanatic of the settlers on the West Bank are Americans.
If they wanted to make aliyah to Israel proper, I’d say godspeed to them. But instead they come from a land of freedom and plenty and take what belongs to someone else in an impoverished desert, as part of their own excellent adventure.
There’s just something–I don’t know–juvenile about the whole thing. It seems like grown-ups trying to play dress-up in some kind of biblical drama.
Mark
@El Cid –
Matt Yglesias was 20-year-old college student when he wrote that. So youthful intemperance doesn’t get a pass? Want to quote us back anything that John Cole wrote in 2002 and use that as evidence that we shouldn’t listen to him today?
magurakurin
What she should have said when asked where they should go:
Back to Israel on the other side of the 1967 border and out of their illegal settlements on Palestinian land in the West Bank. But she would have gotten fired for that, too.
Michael
I’ve been wondering if the whole thing is just a massive circle-jerk – white wingnuts fund string pullers in Israel, Israel acts as a cutout for money to America to fund the politicians who support white wingnuts.
Rinse, repeat…..
Comrade Dread
Well, there must be something wrong with me. I disagree with her comments, but I don’t see them as disgusting or evil or genocidal at all.
Maybe I’m just tired of the Perpetual Outrage Machine that has taken over America.
Anya
@aimai: They are illegal if the sole purpose of these immigrants is to occupy other people’s land. Why are they in Palestinian lands still building. I have no problem if they are settling in Israeli land. Also, recent immigrants from Asia, Europe and Africa are not claiming they own the land because god gave it to them.
People throughout the history settled in different lands, and as the daughter of an immigrant father, from Africa, I have no problem with immigration. What I have problem with is displacing and marginalizing other people and taking over their land illegally. Clearly, HT, was talking about the action of state of Israel deliberately encouraging illegal settlements. How she said it however was offensive.
Mark
aimai@29 –
good point. Canada has its own set of problems – French-Canadians are no longer discriminated against in quite the same way as 40 years ago, but Canada has no problem maintaining an aboriginal population in conditions that I can tell you from personal experience differ little from Gaza.
And we do not consider Pakistani immigrants to Canada illegitimate simply because Canada occupied a previously-inhabited country and fought two domestic wars to crush legitimate resistance by aboriginal and metis people to the english-controlled central government.
Edit: @anya
“What I have problem with is displacing and marginalizing other people and taking over their land illegally.”
Well, part of my family is metis and our land was taken illegally in 1869 by the Canadian government and given to immigrants for the purpose of marginalizing a french-speaking population. My ancestors fought in a civil war after which their leader was summarily executed. This is a deep hole you’re digging.
ChrisNBama
Obnoxious? You have Jewish settlers, many of them brought in from surrounding European nations, occupying land designated for the Palestinians. Suggesting that these carpet baggers be repatriated to their home countries seems reasonable to me.
Now perhaps she didn’t say “jewish settlers” but who else could she have been referring to? Oh yeah, we’ll never get the opportunity for an explanation because she’s already been dragged through the mud, flogged, and lynched by our failed media experiment of a press.
The lesson here is that you simply can not have an anti-zionist point of view and be considered a person in good standing in polite company.
someguy
I don’t get it at all. It’s anti-zionism, not anti-semitism. I don’t see the problem here.
liberal
@aimai:
My personal note: my father was Jewish, and he didn’t know anyone back in Europe, but presumably there were relatives there (Poland, Ukraine) who were murdered by the nazis or their collaborators. He seems to work the Holocaust into every other conversation. People of his generation were, many of them, scarred by events.
Her outburst doesn’t make any sense as anything remotely just, fair, or humane. It does make sense—in terms of “can understand, but cannot condone”—as an outburst of visceral hatred by someone who believes, somewhat reasonably, that her ethnic group has been victimized by colonialists. How it all stacks up in terms of a divine scale of justice, grievances, etc, is another matter.
Please remember—the Arabs had nothing to do with the Holocaust; it was a distinctly European crime. (Not to mention that the British opened Palestine to Jewish immigration long before the Holocaust.) And while those divine scales of justice might say that the ills suffered by natives in the Levant are far outweighed by the gains of the Jews who escaped from Europe, people tend give the insults suffered by their own ethnic group the highest priority and weight. I don’t understand why this is so hard for people get. It might be a sad comment on our species, and it might be regrettable, and it might lead to despicable comments, but it’s unfortunately all too understandable.
El Cid
@Mark: I give a degree of a ‘pass’ for all sorts of people making extreme remarks. If it didn’t have to do with Helen Thomas’ ability to do her job in a professional capacity, of course she should have kept working.
I didn’t choose to replicate the Yglesias quote because it’s the only or most prominent expression of the ease with which people can urge the slaughter and ethnocide and genocide of Arabs and Muslims. Hell, you got ‘6 months’ Tommy Friedman saying how every now and then you just got to blow the shit out of one of these darkies’ countries.
It was for its explicitness in how it wasn’t suggestive or how you didn’t have to spend any time wondering what he really meant. And how, despite that, he’s still fine as a person to pay to run a prominent blog. Had he so pointedly recommended such a thing, even as a 20 year old, which isn’t a 13 year old, about Jews and Israel, I really doubt he’d have the prominence he does today.
It’s not so much about him as the standards of discourse. Mention that you want the Jews of Israel to go back (voluntarily, it sounded like) to the nations in which some of them originated, and it’s considered a truly horrible, unforgiveable offense. You need to quit, get out of the business, an apology is no where near enough.
Explicitly call for the consideration of what the UN calls genocide — violently forced ethnic cleansing via expulsion — for Palestinian Arabs, and it’s considered a bit of intemperance and, quite accurately, seen as not deserving to be a barrier to be a good liberal blogger in the future.
liberal
@ChrisNBama:
While I disagree with those who take the hardest stand against HT in these threads, I do agree that she’s probably referring to all of Mandate Palestine, and to all Israelis, not just the settlers.
Objectively Biased
Let’s see – Jews DID use to live in Poland and Germany, and all the concentration camps in those countries are closed for business. Her comment was beyond the pale how, again?
liberal
@El Cid:
This.
Addendum: ISTR that MY was, at least on balance, in favor of the invasion of Iraq. Might be wrong about that. I also STR that Kleiman was, too.
Gary
Have you all noticed how there’s suddenly no further discussion of the raid on the relief ship? In normal circumstances, HT’s offhand remark would not have been played up like it has been.
Bloggers and their commenters (and the MSM) will never be taken seriously as long as they allow themselves to manipulated so easily by the propagandists that guide our public discourse.
liberal
@aimai:
The settlements “may be” illegal? Are you kidding? They’re clearly illegal and grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions.
thefncrow
The thing that really gets me about this whole uproar over these comments is… have I just missed it somehow, and Germany and Poland are still forcing Jews into concentration camps?
Last I checked, neither country was operating in such a fashion, and Helen Thomas didn’t mention anything about Israeli residents needing to hop in a time machine and go back to WW2-era Poland and Germany. How, exactly, can anyone take her comment about going back to Poland or Germany be a “GET BACK IN THE OVENS” thing without making ridiculous assumptions about the current state of both those countries?
t jasper parnell
@El Cid: This is an important point.
Mark
@El Cid – I think Matt Yglesias was a nobody when he was 20 and so it didn’t register. I’m not saying there isn’t a double-standard, though I’m not convinced he could get away with it today. But he’s almost 30 now and seems to have learned a thing or two. Same with John (a little over 30 though.)
Helen Thomas isn’t going to learn anything new though. And she didn’t have a blog when she was 20, or ever, so we don’t know what the hell she thought about all kinds of things. Writing opinion on the internet every day makes it so much more likely that you’ll write something colossally stupid that people can then look up and use against you. If John had started blogging in 2007, we’d never know what he used to think.
Edit: John did call for some pretty egregious things, did he not? Things that resulted in the deaths of lots or Iraqis? And yet we accept that he saw the light. Whether you think something is intemperate or egregious depends on a lot of things.
Keith G
Ah, the holy land, I wish so much of or nation’s time, conversation money and even blood was wasted on such a worthless piece of shit desert and its various (and sometimes crazy) inhabitants.
liberal
@aimai:
You’re right, Israel is entirely free to decide that someone from Eastern Europe whose last connection to the Levant is more than a thousand years old, yet someone who was expelled by the Zionists within the last century is barred from returning. That’s within its sovereign rights. As an American, I’m also free to decide that the Israeli government is inherently racist and that I don’t want my tax dollars sent there.
ChrisNBama
The problem here is that we simply don’t have enough information about what she meant to say. We have people reading all sorts of things into it. As John pointed out, some people think her references to Poland and Germany means she wants to see Jews exterminated. We have folks saying she means ALL of Israel should get out of Palestine, etc., etc. However, it seems to me the most reasonable interpretation of her remarks is that she’s carping about the illegal Jewish settlements, which she has been carping about for quite some time.
But the fact is, we do not have enough information. Helen Thomas has been handed her walking papers and we will never know what she meant. What a fucking shame! All because we have a frigid national mindset that ANY criticism of Israel is masked bigotry and anti-semiticism.
liberal
@Mark:
That’s just a bullshit excuse for a double standard.
El Cid
@liberal: Yglesias was, indeed, one of the punky liberal hawks, and like so many of those brave enough to stand on the internet barricades and denounce those in disagreement as America-hating leftist peaceniks who loved Saddam. He has since noted his own error, has blogged a tremendous amount of sane things as did many people once they realized they wrongly bought a bag full of shit they were told was full of gold, and in my view now has quite a lot of worthy things to say, as long as you do your work and read only his arguments and care little for his political intuition.
But I really doubt he would have been able to get to this point in the U.S. media environment had he suggested that due to all the Middle Eastern problems it was now ‘time to consider’ the violent ethnic cleansing and genocide of Israeli Jews from current day Israel, because there were plenty of European countries they could be thrown out to, if only those European-types would let them in.
Anya
@Mark: So what are you saying? Since Europeans displaced natives in the Americas it’s o.k. for Israel to continue the grand tradition of human genocides and taking over the lands of the weak?
liberal
@Mark:
Yes, of course, treatment of aboriginal populations in both the US and Canada is horrid. But do the Canadians prevent you from moving around within Canada? If someone decided not to sell a house to you based on your ethnic background, would that be OK or even indirectly encouraged by the Canadian government?
Mark
@liberal
Really? David Broder isn’t going to learn shit either. Look, either you’re a doddering old fool who needs to retire, or you’re not.
liberal
@Mark:
Terrible example. Broder was an idiot a long time ago.
Mark
@liberal
Aboriginal people in Canada have been forcefully re-settled in my lifetime. The movement of aboriginal people is restricted because the government benefits they receive (as guaranteed by treaties they entered into) require them to live on the squalid unwanted lands that the English forced them to take. Aboriginal children were until recently taken from their families, placed in residential schools and forced to assimilate into a culture that was not their own. Aboriginal people weren’t even allowed to vote until 1960.
There may be no legal restrictions against aboriginal people owning homes in Canada, but the unemployment rate among aboriginal people is about 85%, so aboriginal people tend to not be able to purchase homes. And that is something the government cares not one whit about.
You can’t graft the Civil Rights Act onto Canada. It simply does not work that way as a country – it is decades behind the United States in its treatment of its largest minority.
liberal
@El Cid:
Totally agreed.
sherifffruitfly
It differed in no significant way from white southerners screaming “nigger go home”.
And we all know it. No need to sugarcoat it.
jon
I don’t really know about Poland, but there are still German Jews.
demimondian
John, what you’re ignoring is that many of those Jews *did* try to go home after World War II. They were slaughtered by people who didn’t want to be evicted from the homes and farms they’d stolen.
liberal
@Mark:
If you’re saying that by moving you’ll lose the benefits, but otherwise have complete freedom of movement, then my judgement is that current Canadian policy is far less draconian than current Israeli policy.
Of course, I agree that historical treatment of natives in the US and Canada is clear-cut genocide, and much of the nastiness isn’t all that far in the past.
Mark
@Anya
Where the hell did I say that? I’m saying that you need to extend your sense of outrage to 1.2 million people in Canada who have lived a miserable existence at the hands of the government since the day Canada became a country. And you need to consider the notion that the people who took my family’s land have no more inherent right to that land than the Israelis do to theirs. Canadian settlement happened a few decades earlier than Israeli settlement, so it got a pass.
Keith G
@ChrisNBama:
You said that very well.
Even in the face of some rough times Israel has been a very successful (by many counts) and powerful modern state . It existence has not been in doubt since the most powerful economic and militaristic country around has its back.
So when Israel immorally and illegally snatches land from subsistence farmers and laborers people get fucking mad. Helen, among others, is royally pissed about this theft from those who are already very poor. So am I.
And though I respect her writing here, Aimai isn’t. Too bad.
liberal
@sherifffruitfly:
Of course it differed. White southerners bigotry stems from a history in which they (or their co-ethnics) were slaveholders, and the blacks were the slaves. HT’s bigotry stems from a history in which her co-ethnics were victims of acts of colonialization.
Pete
Sadly in the Israel/Palestine sphere of “debate” there is often a huge disconnect between what is said and what is heard.
Not sure what the hell Canada has to do with any of this.
liberal
@Keith G:
Blogger Daniel Davies, aka Dsquared, well-known for his argument that Bush couldn’t be trusted with invading Iraq even if you tended to think Saddam should be overthrown, put it this way: we’re all at heart Westphalians.
SomeCallMeTim
It differed in no significant way from white southerners screaming “nigger go home”.
Maybe in some alternate universe in which African-Americans held all mechanisms of power such that they could, for example, lynch with impunity. I would be pretty surprised to find out that African-Americans wouldn’t accept cruel comments as the cost of controlling power. So actually pretty different.
Mark
@El Cid
Remember that there are about 20 million anglo-Canadians and about 1.2 million aboriginal people who were transferred away from the major population centers. In Canada’s two-largest provinces, aboriginal people make up less than 2% of the population, and even there, they are isolated in the north without road connections to the rest of the country.
In principle, their movement is not restricted. In practice, they are kept in communities with no access to the outside world, no schools, no doctors and no jobs, which makes it pretty damned difficult to buy a plane ticket to the big city.
In the best case, Canada is 40 years ahead of Israel in the way it treats the people whose land it seeks to occupy. At the same time, there is no call for Canada to allow aboriginal people to return to their lands or to compensate aboriginal people for the true value of what was stolen from them. (Compare that, btw, to Canada compensating Japanese people who were put in camps and whose property was seized during WWII.)
grandpajohn
@Gary: Of course there isn’t , which was the intent of this whole dog and pony show created by zionist and their compliant media. But the fact that you and I point this out makes us anti semitic.
Speaking of the flotilla, I suggest some of you ultra moralist here look up and read about the USS Liberty and then come back and tell us about Israel rights to commit piracy
Sarcastro
If Helen’s diktat makes sense applied to Israel doesn’t it also make sense applied to American Jews? If not, why not??
I’m going to go out on a limb here and hazard a guess that it’s because American Jews aren’t illegally occupying Florida, brutally ghettoizing the four million crackers who already lived there or being belligerent assholes who destabilize world politics.
danimal
If I were a mindreader, I’d guess that Thomas was expressing boilerplate Arab anger over the Jewish takeover of Palestine after WWII. I don’t agree with her, but I’d need more proof before believing she was referring to the ovens or mass murder.
Her comment was offensive in the same way a bigot says that all blacks should go back to Africa; they really can’t, they have roots here now no matter where their ancestors lived.
If it matters, my father was Jewish and a Zionist. When my girlfriend and I discussed tracing our genealogy, I told her Hitler took care of my dad’s side of the family. The horror of the Holocaust kind of clicked for her when I said that. It’s not to be taken lightly or thrown around as a cheap political attack.
valdivia
I have been keeping out of this discussion for the last couple of days but have to say that it has been incredible to see these threads devolving each and every fukcing time into a questioning of even the existence of Israel as a jewish state. I loathe Bibi, I am not a likudnik, I am not a neocon, but because I think what Helen Thomas said was fucking racist and anti-semitic a lot of people here are accusing those of us who think that of being with that lot? WTF?
Or what aimai said.
4jkb4ia
On the GOS in 2006 I saw people saying that the Jews should have been given part of Germany as reparations in 1948, and that’s the first thing I thought of when I saw the Helen Thomas links on memeorandum. Then the next easy inference was that it was a right-wing witch hunt.
Full-on rant on why this is wrong influenced by the stupidity yesterday:
First of all, you are building a state on a graveyard.
Second of all, the other side of Jews waiting for a state until the Messianic Era is that any other place for a state is a placeholder until that time. An example of why Israel isn’t a “Jewish republic” is the whole concept of the shmitta year, which was last year. You are supposed to let your land lie fallow and not work it at all for that year. The rabbis used to get around this by declaring the land “ownerless” or “selling” it to an Arab for that time period. Now with more and more of the world’s Jews living in Israel that is not enough for some people and they are getting farmers to observe shmitta voluntarily. The state has got nothing to do with this, so there is a direct Torah mitzvah they are not enforcing. (For example, lighting Hanukkah candles is a rabbinic mitzvah instead.) But outside the Land of Israel you cannot observe that or many other agricultural laws. It is a mitzvah to live in the Land of Israel no matter who is governing it. You have the messianic aspiration to live in Israel also. So a state in the Land of Israel doesn’t have religious barriers to people wanting to live there, even if they think the state is horse puckey. A state in the Land of Israel will have meaning for Sephardic Jews where a state in Germany won’t.
I credit FDL for getting me to pay any attention to the Prop 8 trial. (John should read Gary Segura’s testimony which was on days 7 and 8, but mostly 7. The case is Perry v. Schwarzenegger so he can google the transcript, which is up.) But on the first day, Perry and Stier, who are two of the plaintiffs, testify that they have a domestic partnership. They have it because their attorney told them they should, and they sent in a form, and that was that. But Perry and Stier obviously want to be married because they are plaintiffs in this trial. They want to be married because they are in love and they want it to be recognized that they are as good as anybody else. (And since they are not claiming any holiness for it, I’ve got no problem with it.) Marriage expresses the depth of their emotional commitment in the sense that a domestic partnership does not. In the same way, a reparations state has the practical function of what Israel does. It “protects” you and gives you rights. But it would exist because the international community said that the emotional commitment of what some commenter did the math as 1800 years of exile was not good enough. The emotional commitment of the Zionists who were already there, the work that they had put in, and the Jerusalem and Hebron communities of centuries was not good enough.
Third of all, if you count from the Constitution, 60 years was enough time for de Tocqueville to write “Democracy in America” and think that there was something distinctive about these Americans because of their government. (Analogy may fail because more Americans had been in America for longer than 60 years than Israelis had been in Israel.) 60 years is enough time for something to be distinctive about Israelis and for Israel to be their home and to absorb them. People staffing illegal outposts excepted.
Keith G
@valdivia:
You are another whom I enjoy reading.
So help me understand this:
Is this a gut feeling you have or is there a checklist with threshold values? I am sincere. What put Helen over the top for you?
As you have judged HT to have spoken in an anti-semitic way, do you think that she is in actuality an anti-semite?
PurpleGirl
@fucen tarmal: This is a good point. We still won’t have an intelligent discussion on our Middle East policies, especially those involving Israel. And we will continued to give them billions of dollars in aid every year.
Keith G
@4jkb4ia:
\
Well that’s rather nice. Now, who the hell are you?
grandpajohn
As I read this thread, I feel like I am on Psychic Hotline, as I see the number of people posting here who have the uncanny ability to know just from reading a few sentences by HT,what was in her mind and what she really feels about Jews. and this doesn’t include the numbers who evidently haven’t even read here actual response,since they are attributing to here words she never spoke
And I find the attitudes of some posters insincere and unchristian when I note the number of posters who still feel such deep sympathy and compassion for those who suffered from acts that occurred 60 years ago, while completely ignoring and expressing no compassion for those who are now being terrorized and mistreated and whose lands are being illegally seized. The Bible teaches that we are to love our neighbor as ourselves , stealing your neighbors land and denying him basic freedoms including taking his life, hardly passes the test as love.
valdivia
@Keith G:
look for me this may be too personal but here it goes–as a jew of latino origin whose family mostly died in Poland I have grown up with comments that i should go back where I came from, go back to Poland. Being a Polaca (which meant being a jew, not really a pole). Followed by comments of all the evils that jews have visited upon the world. If HT had said anything about Israeli policies, about the 67 lines, about the right of return I would have probably ignored the whole to do because I don’t give a hoot. But for me her comments were not boilerplate criticism of Israeli policies, they fall into a clear tradition (at least for those of us who have been at the receiving end of them) of anti jewish tropes. I don’t know and don’t care if she is an ‘anti-semite’ but what she said falls into a certain repertoire and that is the only thing that mattered to me.
I did not want to wade into this discussion because I get this is very raw and personal for people–everyone projecting their own history and thoughts on Israel onto her comments. What really really grates on me is that because I think she said hateful things I am now an AIPAC-tool, a neocon, a likudnik and probably never angry enough about what Israel did last week. You know what? I am probably angrier than most people on this blog about it but that does not mean I cannot ALSO be angry about the despicable comments HT made.
Sorry for the rant.
4jkb4ia
@Keith G:
I didn’t want it to be said because I left other comments implying personal religious belief that my comparing the State of Israel to gay marriage was a slur on the State of Israel.
And here is the link to all the transcripts from the trial.
And what valdivia said at 79.
Bob
@Gary: This.
While we continue to discuss the earth-shaking implications of whether or not the comments by Helen Thomas were anti-Semitic (put me in the no column-she was using clumsy rhetoric to make a point about the pale complexions of the large majority of Jewish Israelis whose ‘history’ in the Middle East post-dates my own ancestors arrival in North America in the early 20th century), the Rachel Corrie was illegally hijacked in international waters, people in Gaza are enduring the collective punishment of the blockade, and hammers are striking nails at the newest West Bank ‘settlement’ (such a quaint term for a city). Not to mention the Lebanese still rebuilding after the last Israeli tantrum in that country.
We are indeed the United States of Amnesia that Gore Vidal mockingly refers to us as. What will be the next shiny object?
Michael Bersin
Right wingnuttia is into embellishing, too:
(Missouri) Lt. Gov. Peter Kinder (r): it sounded better in the original Hebrew
Peter Kinder (r) via Twitter:
And the prize goes to:
me
@Michael Bersin:
So it can be blown up in celebration of the return of Jeezus™. The AIPAC crowd has to see these guys as hugely useful idiots.
grandpajohn
And at the same time, those of us who disagree because we have different backgrounds which give us different emotions, are is same way declared as “jew haters” and “anti-semitic”.
I think the real emotions driving our defense of HT is the fact that we constantly see people from the right who make much more offensive and vile statements and yet the still maintain their jobs and status. Pat Buchanon of course being a noted example. This obvious double standard in the media is the thing that inflames and irritates us. That and the fact that interpretations of words differ to different people, I can honestly state that to me the words were not in any way anti semitic . and did not suggest the the state of Israel should not exist
Keith G
@valdivia: Thank you for the thoughtful response. No apology is necessary.
We will look at this and draw somewhat different meanings from it as is the human way. For my part, I will hopefully always tend to go back and explore how others come to perceive the way they do.
liberal
@4jkb4ia:
Uh, the problem with this rant is that Zionism was originally mainly a secular movement, not a religious one.
valdivia
@grandpajohn:
but the fact that Buchanan is a vile racist and the media give him a pass, has nothing to do with what those of us feel–that what HT said was beyond the pale, or us being AIPAC-tools or more importantly the double standard DOES NOT excuse what she said in any way. Yell about the double standard but why defend her?
valdivia
@Keith G:
thanks. I really wish we could have this conversation instead of the one that has been going on in these threads which seems to be unproductive. But that is just me ;)
grandpajohn
@Bob: Whatever the media decides is needed to distract us from the constant behavior of Israel as a “rogue state”. As I mentioned above, some of our younger generation here should go back and read about some of the other acts of Israel and attacks on international waters, especially the story of the American warship, USS Liberty
liberal
@valdivia:
IMHO Arab resentment of Jewish colonization of then-Palestine is morally distinct from other attacks on Jews/Judaism.
valdivia
@liberal:
so Arabs get to say whatever they want and it doesn’t count? it can’t be racist because the resentment is real? by that count then anyone with a real sense of grievance can never be a racist! or offensive.
I have to go and get to work now but again I find it really amazing that there is an assumption that my being offended by HT means I have no sympathy for the Palestinians (you didn’t say that but it has been said above many times in this thread) and that because the Palestinians have a just beef with Israelis it is totally ok for anyone who supports them to say vile shit.
jrosen
I could not care less what a cranky old lady who is clearly on the edge says about anything.
But as an American Jew, I look on the course that Israel is on with the horrified fascination of one watching an incipient train wreck in slow motion (“Final Destination”, anyone?). I have supported Israel most of my life (I was 8 when the state was founded) and have a pretty good memory of the progression of events…in particular I grew up with the Holocaust and although I hate to say it, Richard Cohen in WaPo yesterday did a service by reminding (or informing) anyone with no historical memory why the Jews of Europe desperately needed a place to live in (relative) safety. Many preferred the discomfort of a DP camp over the danger in returning to their pre-war homes, since the latter was risking murder as happened quite a few times.
Over the years, since 1967, I have gradually come to realize that as always in human affairs, things are not so simple anymore. Starting with the seige of Beirut in 1982, I’ve seen the development of Israeli racism and brutality, fueled to no little extent by Jewish fundamentalists from the US. And the support of the Xianists, whose views on practically everything I abhor, gives me more anxiety than comfort.
Sometimes I think we should just wall off the whole region and let them fight it out, last man standing wins. (A country-wide cage match?). How, no IF, it will ever resolve is completely mysterious to me. IT may even be too late for that to ever happen, and I find myself every once in a while entertaining the notion of writing off the whole thing. (Not practical, I know, but….) After all, as difficult as the diaspora has been, it is there that the Jews have made their greatest contributions to civilization. And no place has been as good a home to us as has America.
My real fear is that the actions of self-righteous a$$holes like Netanyahu and the Shas fanatics may turn even that sour. Kahane may be dead but (alas) his spirit lives on.
Anyway, it all shows that Jews are quite human, like every other group on Earth capable of wisdom and stupidity, compassion and brutality, kindness and cruelty. But anyone who reads the OT with attention already knew that.
grandpajohn
@valdivia: Why defend her? Because in my opinion which is not clouded by events from 60 years ago , but events that are happening now, what she said was not anti semitic , was not vile and is not past the pale. It occurs to me that her opinions might be formed by her background and family history just as yours are.
I might ask you then why you are defending the illegal settlements in Gaza , people who are immigrating in and are not currently citizens of Israel, or other illegal acts of Israel, which are also causing death and destruction and pain and suffering to a large number of people,
Don
You can pencil me in on the list next to John; I think what she said was boneheaded, stupid and sloppy. It was either a poorly phrased opinion about the settlements or an irrelevant opinion about an issue settled in 1947. Personally I don’t see why that’s not enough and we have to parse whether it was motivated by anti-semitism.
I’m sure I’d feel less pissy about demanding people make their allegations of anti-semitism iron-clad if it wasn’t ALWAYS used synonymously with anti-zionism and I wasn’t seeing crap like this on friends’ facebook pages.
valdivia
@grandpajohn:
who the fuck is defending the settlements???? this is the shit that drives me crazy. I said not a whit about it and just because I am offended by her you now put views on me that are not my own. This is exactly why having this conversation on these threads is a waste of time. You could not care less what I really think, instead it is more important to see me as a defender of bad polices by a govt I do not support because I fail to defend vile shit said by someone who supports the cause you support? what bs.
and with that I really leave this thread.
Chris Andersen
@fucen tarmal:
This is the tragedy of her comments. Now all discussion of Israels actions can be deflected by saying anyone who criticizes them must agree with Thomas.
JohnR
motes and eyes, folks.
Anyway, the Israelis are humans first, Jews a distant second, and as such have an ingrained tendency towards fascism. It’s part of who we are..
I’ve always liked Helen Thomas, and this doesn’t really change it. My father is notoriously prone to spouting prejudiced and offensive comments – he’s a classic “prejudiced against the group, but not the individual” person, but that’s who he is. He’s not alone. Like all of us he’s a mix of good, bad and ugly bits. We live with it; he’s our Dad, afterall. Personally, I’m on Helen’s side; I don’t care a fig for the historic suffering of the Jews, any more than I care a fig for the historic suffering of any other group of us humans. That shouldn’t give you a free pass to behave any damned way you please, just as your belief that you’re “special” because of your race, culture, religion or politics shouldn’t. Doesn’t stop anyone from feeling that way, of course, but I don’t have to give a crap. What – it’s OK to brutalize other people because they’re ‘enemies’ if you’re Jewish or American or British or Christian but not if you’re German or Japanese or Serbian or Muslim? Screw that. Helen got railroaded because she spoke freely and showed up too many lazy, sanctimonious putzes. It had little to do with what she said; it was bound to happen eventually. “Freedom of Speech” of course is limited only to speech by approved members of the group.
As for:
That made me wonder – I’m pretty sure that most of us lived in a reality-based national (or at least regional)community when I was just a kid, but sometime in the past few decades, we seem to have moved into a set of small-group-reality bubbles, where each member’s reality is identical and limited. And generally bears only vague correspondance to what we might define as ‘objective’ reality. Within that sharply-focused community mind-set, a set of ‘facts’ is recognized which may not be accurate or ‘real’ at all, but which is real to them. So the distinction between ‘opinion’ and ‘fact’ is meaningless in conversation. What you call ‘opinion’, they call ‘fact’ and vice versa. How do you throw a bridge across that?
John Cole
It isn’t a tragedy at all. She made the remarks on the 27th of May. The guy who shot the video held on to it for a week and a half, ostensibly because his son was taking finals. In between, the flotilla happened several days after her remarks. Apparently there is a second part of the interview that has not been released.
In other words, she didn’t make these remarks after the flotilla and then tragically shift the debate.
Granfalloon
I think that this one goes a bit far. Frankly, I can’t see how either the original comment or the intepretation thereof is better or worse than the other. I think that John is falling victim to his own successes – he seems to be employing a formulaic:
look at how foolish ____ was in his/her interpretation of _______ remark!
[Insert interpretation]
Sorry, _______, but what she actually said was [Insert quotation].
SEE how idiotic it is?!
It seems to me that this was a fairly accurate characterization of what she said. Not a direct quote, but certainly an adequate characterization that, in my opinion, is no different from what she actually said. And, as a previous poster said, it certainly seems to be what she meant.
In fact, I would go a step farther. I think that to say that “she just said Germany and Poland” but signified no Holocaust allusion is absurd. Whether intentional or simply part of her ongoing thought process, it cannot be denied that Israel was created for and initially populated by Holocaust survivors and others leaving eastern europe after the horrors of WWII. To say “go back there” was an innocent remark ignores the background. Maybe she did but, if she did, that says a lot as well.
Morever, it COMPLETELY separates the State of Israel – a political entity that takes political action – from the background of its population. And that is insulting and irresponsible. There are generations of native-born Israelis, descendants of those eastern european immigrants. They’re supposed to go back? Where? How? Should my neighbors the Goldfarbs do the same when their dog craps on my lawn? Or maybe my African-American friends should go back to chaka-zulu land or wherever the hell they come from, when inner-city gang members kill innocent people?
Granfalloon
And also, why not say the same about the Palestinians – the vast majority of whom have a far shorter history of dwelling (individually or as a people) in Israel than jewish Israelis.
Jenn
@valdivia:
Wow. Who has called you an AIPAC tool, neocon, etc? That’s terrible. Plus, anyone who’s read your stuff here would know that’s not the case!
We’re spending an awful lot of time dissecting about 35 words Helen Thomas spoke, that can obviously be interpreted in multiple ways, and that we really don’t know what she was really trying to say or how much that reflects her real thoughts vs. frustration-of-the-moment.
I absolutely agree what she said was offensive. I think most people here agree. I’m sorry for the hateful language you’ve had hurled at you, and how this feels like yet another straw on an overburdened camel. And I’m sorry that folks have evidently jumped on you here.
I agree with others that it feels like this has taken the place of talking about Gaza & the relief ship. But this incident certainly highlights the double standard here in the States, between what is “acceptable” to say about Israel and what is “acceptable” to say about Muslims. And I think the discussion has also reinforced just how raw a deal the creation of Israel itself was for Muslims in Palestine, and just how much colonialism sucked, and how glad I am that colonialism is on the decline. The real question is, can we use this constructively to move forward? Can there be some push to say that, yes, Helen Thomas was out of line, but look at what is advocated all the time by “serious journalists” towards the Palestinians that results in nodding heads rather than condemnation, and how about working towards eliminating the double standard?
(And yes this is wishful thinking, and no, I am not holding my breath.)
El Cid
@Mark: Not that it addresses your point, but that wasn’t me.
Granfalloon
And also why, if you don’t think what she said was offensive, then “you must be an anti-semite.” I’m getting tired of seeing people playing the anti-semite card in reverse. Everytime these folks disagree with some pro-Israel policy, they finish off with “I guess I’m an anti-semite, right?” Thus requiring the other person to either call them an anti-semite to their face, or back down from any logical discussion about whatever point they were trying to make. Which is an irresponsible way to win an argument.
Fact is, you hear that more than anyone actually calling anyone an anti-semite for being anti-Israel (which of course are two very different things). Sort of reminds me of the big guy saying “hey, little man, I was next, or if you disagree, perhaps we can take it outside.”
And Another Thing...
@Granfalloon: What are you talking about when you say “…a far shorter history of dwelling…”?
Mnemosyne
@John Cole:
Am I the only one sensing an ACORN-James O’Keefe possibility here? But, as with ACORN, I have a feeling we’ll only get the whole story long after Thomas has retired.
me
@Granfalloon:
So, you believe she was saying Jews should return to the death camps? That’s quite an accusation. Do you have any other evidence of Thomas’ genocidal attitude?
Mnemosyne
@valdivia:
This is where the interpretation problem comes in. If you think that Thomas was referring to the settlers in her remarks — and given her history of making critical remarks about the settlers and settlements, it’s not a crazy interpretation — then people who say that her remarks were horrible and anti-Semitic are by definition defending the settlements against her criticism. Otherwise, why would you say it’s horrible for her to say that the settlers — many of whom are foreigners — should go back to where they came from?
If you think that her comments were a broader condemnation of the state of Israel, then you’re not going to understand why people don’t see them as horrible and anti-Semitic.
That’s the disconnect here that, unfortunately, we have no way of reconciling since we only have a partial comment: was she talking about the settlements or the state of Israel as a whole? Unless this guy releases the whole videotape, we have no way of knowing.
Like I said above, I’m starting to get an O’Keefe whiff from this whole thing, especially since he held the tapes until after Israel started getting international criticism from the raid.
me
Bullshit, the anti-semite card was thrown around a lot in previous threads.
MattR
@Granfalloon:
Or the other person could just agree that criticism of Israeli politics has nothing to do with anti-semitism.
Granfalloon
@And Another Thing.
Most of the population of current Palestinians do not trace roots back to that area, but rather to other arab countries. Arafat was born Egyptian, for example. While there were arabs living in Palestine at the time of the creation of the state of Israel in 1948, few of the current inhabitants trace roots back to those.
Most of the current residents were residents of other Arab countries until 1967 – Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Jordan, and also some non-Arabic Muslim countries. I’m old enough to remember being taught that Palestine was simply the old name for Israel, and not some special signifier for downtrodden Muslims. It’s from the Latin that the Romans named for Judea.
Bob
@Granfalloon: Your comparison is Israeli state behavior with inner city gangs and dogs shitting on lawns?@Granfalloon: Bullshit. Virtually all of the present day Palestinian population can trace their ancestry back hundreds of years. The majority of the Jewish population and their descendants arrived in Israel post WWII.@grandpajohn: It’s shameful that the USS Liberty incident is not more widely known and taught. It was a Pearl Harbor like attack (in it’s sustained intensity and surprise) that would have provoked a war if perpetrated by virtually any other country in the world.
Granfalloon
@MattR:
errrrrrrrr, true. There is a third. Although I doubt that’s the point. Meaning, I don’t think anyone who says “I guess I’m just an anti-semite” does so with the idea that someone will try to prove that statement incorrect.
valdivia
@Mnemosyne:
I agree that we have no clue what she meant. If I take what she said literally as it has been show it does not seem to be about the settlements at all. She could have said that, she did not. So as I read it, she was talking about Israel per se and the whole population and that is what i found offensive. I have stated that and yet people on this thread and others insist on yelling that because I was offended by *that* I am somehow in cahoots with Bibi.
If we could at least agree that for those of us who took the broader interpretation this was offensive for obvious reasons then the discussion would proceed better. Instead we get a lot of mind reading: of each other, of HT, etc.
Jenn–thanks! I have seen many comments on this thread and others that make it seem like I support the neocon Bibi expansionist view of israel and I take exception. Nothing could be further from the truth. I *loathe* them.
Granfalloon
@Bob – no, I’m comparing the idiocy of Thomas’s remarks with the idiocy of similar remarks in the examples I gave.
RP
@Granfalloon:
Spot on. For years AIPAC and its supporters have tried to stifle any criticism of Israel by labelling it anti-semitic. That’s completely unfair. But preemptively waving the anti-semite card to cut off all debate is almost as bad IMO. I am very critical of Israel, and I think most criticism of Israel is not based on anti-semitism. But that doesn’t mean that NO criticism of Israel stems from anti-semitism or that the topic should be off limits.
El Cid
@Granfalloon:
True, but like so many Palestinians who fled the violence of the formation of the Israeli state, Arafat was born to Palestinian parents who left to Egypt.
There’s rather a clear parallel to the origins of Israeli Jews about the same time. Even today, 30% of Israeli Jews migrated from elsewhere.
It’s kind of unfair to treat such a massively immigrant nation as Israel as though people who lived elsewhere for hundreds of years count as ‘locals’ and Palestinians fleeing violence which decimated entire villages and had children elsewhere as having few connections to currently defined Palestinian territories.
muddy
I read this at TPM today:
“From TPM Reader SG …
‘I am all for a Palestinian state and I have little regard for the Netanyahu government, but I am really tired of seeing folks on the left, people whom I agree with on most other political issues, take seriously the idea of unwinding the whole Zionist enterprise.’ ”
I wrote in to ask who all these people on the left are who just want to undo Israel? I read all over and I have not read any of this. The closest is saying that it was a troublesome spot to choose in the first place. And apparently even Ben-Gurion said that. But no one says let’s undo it now.
I asked if there were any links to these people taking this idea seriously, I mean if SG is so tired of it there must be a great deal of this around. Not that I expect a response, there has been a general slide towards gossip and sensationalism there recently.
Am I the only one not to be inundated with this ridiculous sentiment?
Bob
@El Cid: The evidence suggests a purposeful ethnic cleansing of the native population.
Right of return remains an issue the Israelis are steadfastly against.
Just Some Fuckhead
I’m sure rightwing scumbag Ari Fleischer appreciates all the help bringing HT down.
El Cid
@Bob: Of course historical evidence suggests a purposeful ethnic cleansing, because that’s what was done. There has always been efforts to cover this up with stuff about the Grand Mufti, etc., but there was a time when Israeli nationalists chose to emphasize the “land without a people” nonsense.
Original sin or not, there should have been a lawful and internationally supervised settlement for the end of the post-1967 illegal occupation and the construction of a viable Palestinian state. It’s imperfect, but an attempt at a just reconciliation in South Africa was the right thing to do, however malevolent or unwise many of the details were. Likewise in Zimbabwe and Kenya.
There’s never either the capacity nor starting point to which to roll back some this sort of settling down by large numbers of people, however wrong the impulse was. Nobody can or should roll back the U.S. or Latin America to its pre-Columbian state, but that never precludes making the most just agreement at any time period given.
Hell, for that matter, many of the locals hated the Aztecs as a bunch of imperialist assholes, and they were right, and they would have preferred to roll back Aztec expansionism and ethnic cleansing.
Just Some Fuckhead
No doubt Helen Thomas wants to destroy world Jewry, after all she looks sinister and may be tainted with Arab blood. And you don’t get to 90 years of age without drinking a lot of Jewish baby blood. Fact.
catclub
Anyone have a link to info that actually Israelis ARE emigrating to Europe?
I thought I saw a post saying: “Ironically enough…”
Thanks
And Another Thing...
@Granfalloon: How about a link to support those assertions. I’m always interested in being enlightened.
Joseph Nobles
Good to see that both sides have a straw man they can beat. She wasn’t talking about Israel getting out of Gaza and the West Bank, and she wasn’t talking about firing up the ovens.
And Buchanan STILL gets paid for his atrocious column.
fanopause
@Anya:
There is a similar thread throughout these blogs…most people think the land is occupied. As I recall, Israel was minding her own business when she was invaded and ACQUIRED the land when she won the war. Then Israel invited the Palestinians to become citizens and they refused. Jordan refused to take them.
Britain colonized India and there was genocide, hate, war, and blood.
A new nation was created. That is what is happening in the Middle East now. Nobody seemed to complain when the Jews were barred from Jerusalem. Nobody wanted Israel to become a state. Yes it was formulated by Europeans, Americans et.al. but there were always indigenous Jews living in the region and nobody complained when they were murdered.
The Palestinians need their own state without endangering Israel’s security. For those of you who do not want tax dollars going to Israel save your pennies because you will have to buy a pray rug.