If you are a sociopath:
SCHUMER: The Palestinian people still don’t believe in the Jewish state, in a two-state solution. More do than before, but a majority still do not. Their fundamental view is, the Europeans treated the Jews badly and gave them our land — this is Palestinian thinking […] They don’t believe in the Torah, in David […] You have to force them to say Israel is here to stay. The boycott of Gaza to me has another purpose — obviously the first purpose is to prevent Hamas from getting weapons by which they will use to hurt Israel — but the second is actually to show the Palestinians that when there’s some moderation and cooperation, they can have an economic advancement. When there’s total war against Israel, which Hamas wages, they’re going to get nowhere. And to me, since the Palestinians in Gaza elected Hamas, while certainly there should be humanitarian aid and people not starving to death, to strangle them economically until they see that’s not the way to go, makes sense.
At least we are done pretending that this is about weapons. This is collective punishment for having the audacity to vote for Hamas. And I wonder where Hamas got its start?
salacious crumb
I mean isnt this pretty much the justification Al Qaeda and other terrorist groups has been giving to the world for 9/11. That the Americans elect people who wage war and overthrow governments around the world, and support Israel and that their taxes support Israel, so its ok it kill Americans. Does Schumer even see the irony in any of comments?
babieca
Embargos and blockades have worked so well at effecting political change in Cuba, North Korea, Iraq, etc. How could it possibly not work?
Hamas are douchebags, putting Palestinians under siege will only work to make those douchebags more popular.
PeakVT
Fuck Chuck Schumer.
El Cid
As Juan Cole reminded us, Muslims actually do believe ‘in’ the Torah and David.
The problem, for Chuck Schumer addressing this crowd, is that they don’t believe that this ancient book makes it ‘our land’ (people of Jewish descent and/or religion).
tommybones
“And I wonder where Hamas got its start?”
Johann Hari:
“The Israeli government did indeed withdraw from the Gaza Strip in 2005 – in order to be able to intensify control of the West Bank. Ariel Sharon’s senior advisor Dov Weisglass was unequivocal about this, explaining: “The disengagement [from Gaza] is actually formaldehyde. It supplies the amount of formaldehyde that’s necessary so that there will not be a political process with the Palestinians… Effectively, this whole package that is called the Palestinian state has been removed from our agenda indefinitely.”
Ordinary Palestinians were horrified by this, and by the fetid corruption of their own Fatah leaders – so they voted for Hamas. … It was a free and democratic election, and it was not a rejection of a two-state solution. The most detailed polling of Palestinians, by the University of Maryland, found that 72 percent want a two-state solution on the 1967 borders, while fewer than 20 percent want to reclaim the whole of historic Palestine. So, partly in response to this pressure, Hamas offered Israel a long ceasefire and a de facto acceptance of two states, if only Israel would return to its legal borders.
Rather than seize this opportunity and test their sincerity, the Israeli government reacted by punishing the entire civilian population. They announced they were blockading the Gaza Strip in order to “pressure” its people to reverse the democratic process. They surrounded the Strip and refused to let anyone or anything out. They let in a small trickle of food, fuel and medicine – but not enough for survival.”
El Cid
Greenwald highlights President John McCain pointing out the utter evilness of the Iranian regime.
Good thing we here spend our precious resources on roads and schools and hospitals and jobs which benefit all Americans, instead of murdering the innocent abroad.
Dave
This is collective punishment for having the audacity to vote for Hamas.
They didn’t. Hamas launched a coup which resulted in Hamas thugs throwing members of Fatah off the tops of buildings.
Besides, hasn’t John Cole spent the last few years warning of the consequences to the American people of a John McCain victory in the last elections, or from the policies of George Bush?
Surely what is good for the goose is good for the gander?
Oh wait. Gazans are brown people and thus nothing but helpless robots who were forced into supporting a fascist genocidal milita by the evil Israels and the West and thus denied moral autonomy by John Cole’s raging white-man’s-burden racism.
joe from Lowell
Most of the residents of the Gaza strip are children. Schumer is taking about “strangling” children.
Riggsveda
And I wonder where they got the idea to have the elections that ended in Hamas winning? Oh, yeah…Bush-Cheney. Guess democracy only counts when the outcome is politically correct.
Amir_Khalid
Yes, I know I’m stating the obvious: it’s precisely because of sentiments like Schumer’s that we in the Muslim world don’t take the US seriously as an honest broker in the Middle East. And no matter how likable we find Obama, or how much we recognize him as a semi-insider (with his family ties to Islam and all that), we know he can’t shift such attitudes within one presidential term or two, let alone a year and a half.
Dave
So, partly in response to this pressure, Hamas offered Israel a long ceasefire and a de facto acceptance of two states, if only Israel would return to its legal borders.
John Hari is a liar (not a surprise to anyone this side of the Atlantic – he makes Robert Fisk look honest).
Hamas never offered anything (a one-year “hudna” is NOT a ceasefire by any stretch of the imagination), and in fact refused to honor all past agreements between the Palestinian Government and Israel.
joe from Lowell
So weak. Like, “Ted Kennedy and Pat Leahy hate Catholics” weak.
When conservatives play a race card, it’s like a monkey who’s gotten hold of a field researcher’s cell phone, and is trying to imitate how she used it.
Michael
@Dave:
So which Washington DC area restaurant did you hit last night? I know there’s lots of great ones, and for lobbying staffers, there are lots of free drinks and glad handing going on…..
cleek
It’s okay to punish Palestinians
‘Cause they don’t have any feelings
Something in the way, mmm
Something in the way, yeah, mmm
AhabTRuler
@Dave:
And you do love a proper gander, don’t you?
joe from Lowell
You’ll be stunned to discover Dave doesn’t know what he’s talking about.
Hudna in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict
In English, the term is most frequently used in reference to a cease-fire agreement in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, particularly one that would involve organizations such as Hamas. The concept of hudna was introduced to the conflict by the Israeli businessman Eyal Erlich in 2001, after seeing a hudna being declared in order to calm a feud in Jordan (cf. Haaretz, January 2, 2002); he and some others proposed, unsuccessfully, that Israel should suggest a mutual hudna as a prelude to a more lasting peace.
middlewest
Neither do I. I wonder if Schumer thinks I deserve to be punished. Maybe I’ll call his office and ask on Monday.
Crusty Dem
Enthusiastically supporting a policy that starves a million+ people to “teach them a lesson” = totally acceptable
Saying that Israel is not a legitimate state and it’s people should leave the region = immediate defenestration
To me, both statements/sentiments are completely unacceptable, but it’s notable that only one has negative consequences.
John Cole
Does someone want to go through the threads last week and find where Dave was emphatically stating that this was all about weapons? Because that would be fun.
Linda Featheringill
@Dave:
Wow. I’m not sure how one would stage a defense against such a tirade.
sukabi
For a US Senator, who took an oath to uphold our Constitution, that states in it that we have freedom of and from religion to basically advocate the death of a people (either literally or economically) because they don’t believe in HIS god and His book is beyond the pale. At the very least he should be censured… personally, I’d like to see him expelled from the Senate for that crap… but yes, I know even a tiny, private rebuke isn’t on the table for one of our “betters”.
This whole thing illustrates how little respect he has for our Constitution and by extension the people of THIS country, and could explain some of his votes in favor of his other people, the Wall Street Banker crowd and his willingness to strangle the lower and middle classes of this country until we submit.
Svensker
@Crusty Dem:
This is what has me so pissed off (altho it’s become a permanent state these days, very exhausting).
So I’ll wait for Gater90 and eemom and Brachiator, et al, to come along and call for Schumer to resign. I imagine I’ll have a fairly long wait.
Emma
Dave, you’re not convincing anyone. And every time you post someone rebuts you and you shift your ground and try again. Tell me, do you get paid for it or are you into sadomasochism?
New Yorker
@cleek:
Nicely done.
Also, Chuckie, why on earth should we take seriously the idea that Israel supports a two-state solution when Netanyahu is prone to babbling about eternal rights to “Samaria” and “Judea”, two words that have about as much relevance to 21st century geopolitics as “Tiwanaku” and “Caledonia”? Who the fuck cares about believing in David and the Torah when it comes to international diplomacy?
This is why this conflict will never be solved: two groups of people both claiming universal rights to a piece of land because…..well, because some ancient books told them it belongs to them. Unreal.
wengler
People make very rational decisions while being “economically strangled”. Like that guy that ran his plane into the IRS building.
The Israeli government would love to put the Palestinians somewhere else, but no one else wants them. So Israel is walling them off instead and trying to make them as miserable as possible so they somehow leave. This strategy isn’t going to work, but the Israeli government isn’t really inclined to think outside the box for one that will. As long as they insist on having Israel-Palestine be a Jewish majority state under Jewish rule they are going to have to keep the occupation, the harassment, the punitive raids, the “targeted” assassinations, and the massacre of men, women and children.
I wonder if Schumer thinks that Jewish Americans like himself, born in Brooklyn, should have more right to live on farmland in the West Bank than a displaced Palestinian family that had been farming there for countless generations? Because current Israel state policy says he does.
Linda Featheringill
@Amir_Khalid:
As a non-Jew and non-Muslim, I sometimes get confused with all the posturing that takes place in print in this country.
If your non-Muslim neighbors sometimes seem to be unresponsive to you, it may be that they are not unfeeling. Perhaps they are totally befuddled by the ever-shifting scene in front of them.
It did help clear my mind to realize that in the eastern end of the Mediterranean is full of jerks of all description.
Off with their heads.
[walks off shaking her head]
Cacti
They don’t believe in the Torah? *gasp*
I hate to break your heart Senator, but the Torah is a dusty old collection of Hebrew cultural myths with a sprinkling of historicity.
Abraham and Moses – probably never existed
The Exodus – never happened
King David – minor tribal leader
eemom
so much hate. That’s why this mess is so hopeless.
I don’t know how much Schumer or Anthony Weiner believe what they’re saying. I do know that it’s political suicide for a NY Dem to not be aggressively pro-Israel. And that’s not because of big bad AIPAC, it’s because their constituents are aggressively pro-Israel.
Weiner got bitten by a goat last week, also too.
New Yorker
I suppose I should be glad that other people don’t use ancient religious myths to back up their competing claims to land. Imagine if Bolivians claimed that Pachamama promised them the northern coast of Chile in some ancient book, and thus they launched rockets into Arica whenever they get the chance (along with the occasional suicide bombing in Santiago).
In response, Chile’s government cited Jesus telling them that the land was theirs, and they used that as a justification to blockade Bolivia completely after leveling La Paz with a helicopter attacks and artillery.
Svensker
@New Yorker:
Actually, only one group is claiming that. The rest of the folks just want their houses back.
Cacti
I also rather doubt that Schumer would be equally accepting of the religious view that…
Jewish suffering is a result of their rejection of Jesus, their true king and Messiah.
mcd410x
Just for the record, if you have a sentence with a comparison, it goes like this: Though, not as smart as she.
It’s nominative case because the “is” after “she” is understood: Though, not as smart as she (is).
Here endeth the reading.
ciotog
Actually, I think most of the Palestinian claim to the land comes from the fact that they were 93% of the people living on it in 1948.
Reggie Syriac
per this article from the majlis, it seems like schumer is just ‘making shit up.’ multiple polls found that the majority of palestinians in west bank and gaza support 2-state solution, tho the numbers are declining. wonder why.
El Cid
Any of you who disagree with Chuck Schumer love Hamas and want to have its babies, you don’t appreciate the urgent need to shoot aid activists repeatedly in the head and back in international waters, and also you will soon push tiny, itty-bitty, defenseless Israel into the ocean.
middlewest
I love when people pretend that Israel was happy best friends with the Palestinian natives until Hamas came along, and then they were suddenly forced to adopt a belligerent attitude. What a marvelous little fairy tale.
Joel
Dave, just curious. Do you defend Schumer’s remarks?
matoko_chan
@El Cid: That is correct ……Moses is revered as an important prophet in al-Islam. The Fuṣūṣ al-Ḥikam (Ring-Settings of Wisdom) by my shayyk Ibn Arabi is a work divided into 27 chapters, each one on the particular wisdom associated with one of the prophets mentioned in the Qurʾan, Adam to Jesus (Issa).
New Yorker
@Svensker:
That might be true for Fatah, and any other secular Palestinian group, but I’m rather certain that Hamas would, if they could, exterminate every Jew in Israel.
PeakVT
The other Cole weighs in on Schumer. ETA: So does Greenwald.
kay
I don’t know that strangling people until they “believe” is going to work.
What an odd and revealing choice of word. Not recognize, not acknowledge, not even accept, but “believe”.
There is no way they can meet this standard and remain who they are. It’s an impossible-to-meet condition. I don’t even know how they’d prove they “believe”. I can’t imagine.
matoko_chan
@Amir_Khalid: No one can be a serious broker of peace in MENA until the injustice to muslims of Israel’s creation is acknowledged, and until Israel begins to act as a just nation.
Obama, in trying to freeze settlements, is trying to get Israel to act justly.
Svensker
@New Yorker:
That’s quite an assumption you’re making.
matoko_chan
@kay: the gazans are being punished for acting democratically.
Hamas was elected in a fair democratic election, monitored by the UN.
Bush and the Israelis didn’t like the result.
matoko_chan
@Cole
Or a retard.
David (Dawud) is a prophet in the Qu’ran.
kay
@matoko_chan:
Well, yes, I read Senator Schumer’s statement so I get that.
I recognize he’s probably pandering to religious fundamentalists in this particular speech, but how in the world does he think people outside that room are going to interpret his statement that people in Gaza have to “believe” and that “you have to force them to say Israel is here to stay”?
He sounds exactly like conservative fundamentalist Christians within the Bush Administration.
Colonel Danite
So I’m sure that Sen Schumer approved of the Spanish Inquisition. After all, they were only torturing and killing Jews until they believed what was true and proper.
Larkspur
So the beatings will continue until morale improves.
Yep, I’m gonna need a bigger spaceship. Something in the refurbished Firefly class.
Reggie Syriac
@New Yorker: whoa bro, u must have spent a lot of time in gaza 2 make such a statement. def have respect for yr skillz and wide breadth of ‘knowledge.’ when did u start learning arabic? is yr master’s degree/ph.d./post-doc work in middle east studeez, international relaish, anthro, what?
arguingwithsignposts
Schumer is bought and paid for by Israel and the financial industry. His comments were stupid and offensive, and he should resign. Being a politician with no moral code other than remaining in office, he won’t.
wrb
And Chuck sounds shocked that there are people who don’t believe that their personal god gave them land for all perpetuity.
What next, Santa Claus doubters?
K.
Yes, John, Hamas is a righteous organization. You are right.
K.
@Dave:
Thanks for your efforts but John Cole sees the world in black and white and good and evil. His definitions of such change drastically with time but his limitations remain and his cheerleaders give him no reason to question himself.
Corner Stone
@Reggie Syriac: Damn. Lolspeak is spreading faster than anticipated.
We may have a problem here.
Crusty Dem
The Middle East problem can be basically summed up as two groups who hate each other and whose actions are essentially unregulated by any rational forces. One group has nothing, no resources, and no powerful allies (and therefore, nothing to lose); the other has the land, powerful weapons, and powerful allies (with no risk of losing them in response to poor behavior). Additionally, the most extreme acts from either side only result in increased support from their own faction, effectively rewarding the worst behavior (and powers extremists on both sides, as seen from suicide bombings, the rocket attacks, the blockade and the flotilla debacle).
Without motivation to improve behavior, the downward spiral will continue indefinitely. But we lack the ability to motivate the Palestinians and the political will to counter the Neocon Israelis. Clearly, the obvious solution is
Corner Stone
@Colonel Danite:
Well, nobody expected that.
Amir_Khalid
@matoko_chan: I agree. It seems to me that the creation of the modern Israel was one of the bigger mistakes of the post-WWII order. They were given the land from under another people’s feet, given it by a colonial power who had no right to give it away. Just look at all the grief that has resulted.
I don’t argue for the dissolution of Israel, as I know some still do. There are already two or three generations of Israelis who don’t have another country to go “back” to. But as it is, I don’t foresee Israel surviving beyond the next generation. It will either sink (further) into apartheid, and we know where that led the old South Africa; or it will succumb to its inherent demographic unsustainability, and disappear from the map like the old Crusader kingdoms.
matoko_chan
@kay: minority whip.
Athenae
@wengler:
First of all, don’t lets slander Gaza’s residents by comparing them to anti-tax creeps.
Well, and the larger problem is that it shouldn’t be up to the Israeli government where to “put” the Palestinians at all. They’re not Fischer Price people, they’re human beings who want to live where they want to live. If they could be shifted around like chess pieces this wouldn’t be a thousand-year argument.
A.
Corner Stone
@Amir_Khalid:
Israel will host the FIFA World Cup?
matoko_chan
@Amir_Khalid: Brother, at TalkIslam we discussed this extensively….and the consensus was that the creation of Israel was unjust to muslims, but just to jews. Some of the wali do have sympathy for all humans.
;)
The second conclusion we arrived at, was that Israel CAN exist NOW, if it can begin to act as a just nation.
But I agree…Israel cannot survive by continuing its current policies.
Like the Prophet said…..
liberal
OT: Where does TUNCH fit in?
Cats are a big part of my life, so I read Grandin’s chapter on felines with unusual concentration. I was a little dismayed, therefore, to discover that “animal behaviorists and ethologists don’t know as much about cats and their emotions as we do about other domestic animals.” I thought I knew my cats pretty well, but Grandin surprised me by having much of great interest to say about these superbly sensual, mysterious creatures. One bare fact that had hitherto escaped me is that there are two basic cat personalities—bold and shy—which are associated with coat color. Black cats, it turns out, are usually laid-back, while tortoiseshells are the typical “scaredy cats.” I live with a black and a tortoiseshell cat (known respectively as the Captain and Bernadette), who could be models for this: the Captain is as solid as a rock, his aura of calm spreading far and wide, while Bernadette has been known to take fright at her own tail. Both, incidentally, had identical upbringings from kittenhood.
It turns out that coat color in cats may be associated with genetic changes that confer a defense against feline AIDS, and that in turn are linked to behavioral traits. In cities, where cat populations are high, the spread of feline AIDS (which is contracted through scratches and bites) is greatly facilitated. Black cats tend to predominate in such environments. Orange toms, found in certain studies to be more aggressive than black cats, die early because they spend too much time fighting (thereby exposing themselves to feline AIDS), while the laid-back black toms just lounge about, waiting for their turn to mate. There is so much in Animals Make Us Human that is thoughtful and deeply insightful that anyone who eats meat, or has a pet, would be well advised to read it.
Shalimar
@Crusty Dem:
Nuke the whole world so everyone will finally stop fighting?
cmorenc
@John Cole:
The culture and environment of the middle east warps people into becoming ruthless sociopaths. It’s the remarkable ones who manage to rise above and beyond it, and they are too few. There’s no powerful Nelson Mandela-type character who’s inarguably earned his standing for toughness and justice for his people, who manages show his people how to magnanimously rise above their justified resentments.
El Cid
@New Yorker:
True or not, there are a lot of people around the world who would eliminate whole peoples and races if they were given magic powers to do so.
Since there is currently no power within or next to Israel that has any real world power to threaten its existence as a nation-state, why would this matter?
I’m sure quite a few Chechen separatists would wish Russians dead, but they aren’t able to get their wishes, either.
liberal
@matoko_chan:
Trying?
liberal
@K.:
LOL!
As they say in Japan, “It’s mirror time!”
Larkspur
As I often do, I’ve been reading science fiction, or speculative fiction, or alternate histories, or apocalypse-y stuff. I just finished World War Z: An Oral History of the Zombie War .
In this near-future story, it’s been ten years since the first zombie outbreaks, and the historian is doing interviews world-wide to document the events and the individual experiences.
In this fantasy, Israel was one of the first countries to recognize the threat and quarantine the country. It allowed entry to all resident Israeli citizens, all resident non-Israeli Palestinians, and most other former residents of the region, regardless of religion or ethnicity.
The author didn’t spend too much time outlining the scene, but it took place after some kind of two-state solution had been imposed, including a corridor from the Mediterranean through to Jerusalem, which had been designated an international city. It was not a dancing-in-the-streets sort of scenario, but an imperfect, messy, and marginally more stable region for everyone.
Assuming I have a point, it wouldn’t be that a zombie war would bring us together, but more that very possibly we could get to some kind of minimally satisfactory accommodation there, something that might even get better over time. But not with the current Israeli leadership. And not, IMO, with Saudi Arabia so satisfied with their fortunes in a region locked in mortal struggle.
liberal
@cmorenc:
But a lot of the people JC is presumably referring to live in the US, not the middle east.
matoko_chan
@Larkspur:
nah–too small…..better make it a settlement colony barge.
The problem is, just like on Harlan’s World, we will always carry all our human baggage with us, encoded in our (altered carbon) genes and D.H. (digitized human) personality imprints.
liberal
@Crusty Dem:
It’s worse than that. AFAICT there’s a definite strategy on the part of Israel to crush Palestinian moderates, more so than Palestinian extremists. Not to mention that the Palestinians are thoroughly infiltrated, individuals blackmailed, etc etc by the Israelis. Makes COINTELPRO look like a nursery school game.
Reggie Syriac
@Corner Stone: just trying 2 write n a style that most americans r accustomed 2 reading. kinda hope it will help me 2 reach the widest demographic. think it is an ‘alinsky tactic.’
MBSS
the abrahamic faiths, christianity, islam, and judaism, now do not have enough in common according to our beloved chuckie schumer. they have more in common then they like to admit sometimes, and contra schumer’s idiotic statement, one of those common bonds is david.
but maybe that’s not good enough for chuckie. once the palestinians convert, endorse zionism, lend a hand building new settlements, and go out and buy menorahs and kippahs, then israel may ease the blockade, and maybe give them a lil cardamom or chocolate.
matoko_chan
@liberal: but Tunch is a flame-point.
not an orange tom.
@liberal: trying.
no freezing that i can see so far.
liberal
@New Yorker:
Likewise, I’m rather certain that many at top levels of the Israeli government would do the same to the Palestinians.
As El Cid says, such speculation isn’t very useful.
liberal
@matoko_chan:
That’s my question—he’s neither black, nor tortoiseshell, nor an orange tom. And most of whatever sociopathy he has is directed at our dear host, not at other cats.
…adding, what’s flame-point?
Gus diZerega
Schumer managed to become a sociopath, or an incredibly good image of one, without living in the Middle East. Perhaps Washington, DC, has a similar impact on the morally weak?
Comrade Kevin
So, under how many different names is “Dave” posting now?
wengler
@ Athenae
I would say electing Hamas would be one of those less than rational responses. Israel destroyed the airport and seaport facilities in Gaza long before this blockade was enacted and Hamas took over. Not to mention Gaza was the dumping ground for every opponent to the Palestinian Authority and Israel. So it electing a fundamentalist Islamic party isn’t exactly surprising.
Barbarian regimes are the ones that starve their opponents. Israel doesn’t care for world opinion about what they do, but the US has to. We have way too many things going on all over this world to have some Senator shoot off his mouth about how starving Gazans is awesome. I certainly hope that the Obama administration repudiates this, but I’m not holding my breath and with Helen Thomas gone nobody is likely to even ask the question.
Steeplejack
@Reggie Syriac:
Epic fail, as I believe the yoots would say.
MBSS
@Reggie Syriac:
ur convo w/ eemom waz lol. :o)
salacious crumb
@Amir_Khalid: Its funny, but most Israelis do not even consider themselves to be Middle Eastern/Semitic (whatever that means) , or at least definitely the Israelis of European extraction, however much they may still rage against Germany and Poland. A good chunk of Israelis are looking to immigrate to Europe, especially Germany, much to the chagrin of the Israeli govt.
slag
Ahhhh…The grand unified Suck on This theory…What could go wrong?
matoko_chan
@liberal: a flame point is white with orange tips. siamese are seal points usually, they have seal colored or dark brown “points”.
i dunno if there is a behavioral correlation, this is just random coatcolor inheritance detritis from some past genetics class.
licensed to kill time
__
Schumer their pain with his fingers
strangle their lives with his words
strangle them with economics
strangling them softly ’til they see
that’s not the way to go
says Chuckie
that’s not the way to be
killing them softly
Reggie Syriac
@MBSS: thnx bro. just want 2 help eemom b the best eemom she can b. luv her radical ‘don’t give a shit’ tude, but sorta h8 her application of it.
Onyx
@middlewest:
That’s because the history of this conflict only goes back so far as it benefits Israel. Thus everything was going well until the election, Hamas broke the cease fire and Israel wasn’t founded on terrorism and ethnic cleansing.
El Cid
@Onyx: Hamas didn’t break the ceasefire. Israel did. In December of 2008 after a 26 week ceasefire. They invaded Gaza with tanks, according to the IDF, to attack a tunnel, and shot Hamas members at that point. At that point, Hamas retaliated.
Brachiator
@Svensker:
See here’s your problem. I rarely call for the resignation of congresspeople about anything (if their constituents want to pull them out, that’s another thing). On the other hand, I didn’t join in any of the Helen Thomas bandwagon posts on either side (nor do I see reporters and politicians as having the same status or meriting the same attention).
However, I noted in a number of posts that the actions of the hardliners in the Israeli government were counter-productive. And I never wrote anywhere, in any post, that the Israeli response to the flotilla was simplistically “all about weapons.”
The statement “to strangle them economically until they see that’s not the way to go, makes sense” is despicable.
Yagil Henkin wrote an illuminating article in the Jerusalem Post in August 2009 about the futility of the Gaza economic embargo (which, by the way, was imposed with the de facto approval of Egypt):
But then again, we have our own version of this stupidity with the ongoing US embargo against Cuba.
El Cid
@Brachiator: Not to mention that with elected officials, their views whether fine or despicable may be quite popular with their electorate.
Crusty Dem
@Shalimar:
Well, clearly you’re a demented sociopath.
@liberal:
That’s what I was trying to get with “empowers extremists on both sides”, but I didn’t want to dig into it to deeply.
I was trying an old science trick I learned from some of the senior profs. When you have a problem that appears intractable, describe it as clearly as you can and pause to silently request solutions. Then decimate all suggested solutions that won’t clearly work (and alter/take credit for any that might), thus knocking others down and increasing your own (perceived) status. It’s a dick move, but fairly entertaining..
matoko_chan
@salacious crumb: Israel is largely divided into Ashkenazai and Mizrahi….MIzrahi are indigenous to MENA and the Ashkenazai came mostly from european jews that immigrated to MENA.
Amir_Khalid
@matoko_chan: Acting as a just nation, i.e. giving non-Jewish citizens the same rights as Jews, would likely lead Israel to my Door No. 2: a slow death by demographic unsustainability. Which, I think, is partly why Israel has resisted doing this.
From what I know, spiritual legitimacy is central to Zionism and thus to Israel’s raison d’etre. Acting justly would indeed strengthen that legitimacy, but it might well jeopardize Israel’s long-term survival. And nations have always prized their survival over their ideals.
Michael
@John Cole:
Remember – he’s “in the UK” as his spoofed IP will tell you. ;D
Once upon a time, I knew how to do that.
AhabTRuler
While the economic embargo against Cuba is absolutely moronic, comparisons between it and the situation in Gaza are, at best, facile.
We do not control the borders of Cuba, we do not intercept foreign aid to Cuba, and we do not control trade with Cuba. Furthermore, as someone has recently pointed out, when we did blockade Cuba, it was with the explicit recognition that non-military material would be allowed to pass through.
Corner Stone
@Reggie Syriac:
It’s understandable that you may not know much about this blog’s demographics. The overwhelming majority are in their late 30’s and above. Judging by music preferences, I’d say wayyyy above.
And your style is irritating as hell. Engage your inner i9 and write out full words as appropriate.
You obviously missed the recent “grammar” post absolute freaking out flamewar.
matoko_chan
@Amir_Khalid: brother, i am hopeful a two-state solution can be just.
matoko_chan
@Reggie Syriac: dude, these are Old People.
If you try to communicate in l33tspk, they get pissy and start yellin’ for you to get off their lawn.
‘specially Cornerstone.
;)
Mark S.
I was curious about Chuck’s previous statements on Israel:
There is so much wrong with this statement I’m not even going to bother, but I’m left with the impression that even trying to be an honest broker makes you a Nazi in Schumer’s book.
maus
@Dave:
oh hey it’s infantalizing dave
please, dave, tell us more about the plight of the poor browns and what is good for them
you had such a success telling us what the persians really want, i’m fascinated to know what is to come
@Comrade Kevin: I don’t know, if he ip matches the rest of the douchebag trolls he should just be banned along with the rest.
Amir_Khalid
@salacious crumb: That’s the path to Door No. 2 right there.
BTW, I’m glad you managed to escape from Jabba’s barge in time.
General Egali Tarian Stuck
@Crusty Dem:
Wise. I only take a soup spoon these days to dig into this topic around here. Not much room for nuanced debate. Though it is sad for all concerned, especially on the ground in Gaza, and also to watch Israel destroy it’s self with over reaction and brutality uncalled for. Schumer confirms the worst of Israel’s current intentions and tactics on this blockade, and with the support of even some dem politicians. Hamas is winning the ancient struggle of eliminationists from both sides, by goading Israel into slow motion elimination of it’s national soul.
matoko_chan
@Amir_Khalid: Door No. 2 is demographic suicide for Israel. An impossible choice.
Door No. 1 (two-state) is the only viable solution.
The status quo is non-viable.
Brachiator
@El Cid:
I guess the degree to which one plays to the electorate is what distinguishes a statesman from a mere politician.
matoko_chan
@General Egali Tarian Stuck:
/salutes General Stuck with respect, wowstyle
Reggie Syriac
@Corner Stone: damn. seems unchill bro. reminds me of old dudez who live in 99%-white zones but r still angry about somebody they heard speaking spanish the other day [via 5-yr-old memories of ‘the other day’].
u may b trying 2 target a shrinking niche demo. just want 2 keep the convo relevant 2 tweens & teens who might b interested n mixing poliblogs w/their jonas bros.
matoko_chan
@Brachiator: waaaay deeper than that.
The Grand Experiment of american self-governance is a tension between two sides of inherited human personality traits.
No where in the constitution does it say that stupid, fearful, reactionary racists are denied representation. But knowledge accrues. What we see now in America is the Epic Fail of ALL conservative memes.
1. the Free Market. The unregulated invisible hand of the market just punched America’s working class in the face. Like Dr. Pournelle says,
2. the Center Right Nation. America IS a center right nation. But 50 years of boutique libertarianism and the Southern Strategy has rendered the GOP toxic to dark-skinned conservatives.
3. a Decisive President and a Strong Defense unfortunately turned into an intellectually incurious and belligerently stupid chief executive that initiated wars of choice and is still unable to admit disastrous errors in the face of mountainous empirical evidence.
4. the White Patriarchy Model of social cohesion is dust and ashes since blacks and women got the vote. the new model of social cohesion evolving is Social Democracy. without a viable social compact to offer minorities and women, the GOP is simply DOA as the demographic timer on non-hispanic caucs runs down.
Empathy correlates with higher IQ. Religiosity correlates with lower IQ.
The rightwing personality type exhibits lower empathy and extremely high religiosity.
Scientific knowledge accrues. Eventually, the conservative personality will be proven to correlate with statistically lower IQ than the liberal one. Conservatives suspect this now. Like Julian sanchez says, modern conservatism is an inferiority complex masquerading as a political philosophy. Science and empirical data are eroding all the core conservative meme complexes with reality. I expect that when the negative correlation of IQ with conservative affiliation becomes scientific fact a broad shift in self-described party affiliation will occur.
No one will want to be in the Stupid Party.
matoko_chan
@Reggie Syriac: jonas brothers? euwwwwwwwwww!
show some class, bro.
I’m just the last of the American Girls.
Corner Stone
@Reggie Syriac:
Wowz. preciate that shiz yo. U k33p kickin it reel.
lawlz
Damn, where is JSF when I need him to translate something into pidgin.
Onyx
@El Cid:
That’s exactly my point. History only goes back to Hamas firing rockets, Israel breaking the cease fire didn’t happen because history only goes back so far as it benefits Israel.
handy
@K.:
How so? All I hear from people like Dave is “Israel should protect itself by any means necessary in accordance with whatever it perceives a threat, and the Palestinians want to exterminate Jews.” That’s about as dualistic a framework as you can get.
It amazes me how quickly the people actually question that framework get labeled anti-Semites or terrorist sympathizers.
Steeplejack
@Reggie Syriac:
Okay, now you overdid the spoof-mo.
handy
@MBSS: And to really throw a wrench in the whole thing, a sizable percentage of Palestinians are Christians, and have been so for a very long time.
John S.
@Matoko_Chan:
There will never be a shortage of conservatives willing to belong to the ‘Stupid Party’. They wear ignorance like a badge of honor.
BC
The Palestinians really have a looooonnng time on that piece of land – they are likely descendants of the “Canaanites” that lived there before Abraham migrated from Ur, were there throughout the time of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, were there when the Israelites returned from their sojourn in Egypt, were there when the Israelites were exiled to Babylon, were there when they returned from Babylon, were there when the Greeks invaded and established a beachhead, were there during the Maccabees, were there during the Romans, were there during the Jewish revolt and diaspora, were there during the Crusades, and were there when the Zionists started building a nation again. Their presence in this land is elided when Christians or Jews talk about it, but the evidence is they were always there. And I think they are taking the long view, figuring that in 50-100 years there won’t be a Jewish state because of demographics.
Reggie Syriac
@mabroko_chan: jonas bros, miley ‘milez davves’ cypress & justin bieberbro r the new grand funk rr: ‘we’re an american band of tween idols’
but srsly, trying only 2 wade n2 balloojoo comments for mideast debates. 2 many rugged, authentic personal brands on display. just like 2 issue some ‘detached’ commentary 2 cut the hyperbole & histrionix [via fieldwork n mideast].
eemom
@Reggie Syriac:
tuf titez.
BC
As a thought experiment, think of what would have happened had Israel opened the Palestinian territories to economic expansion from the time they occupied them after the 1967 war. If there had been some enlightenment on the part of the Israeli government on how to occupy the territories, perhaps using the US occupation of Japan as an example, then maybe we would have had more peace throughout the region than there is now. Problem is, the water needed for some of the Israeli farms comes from the territories and has made it difficult for Israel to contemplate giving up control. Then the settlements began taking up more and more land from Palestinians and Israel is reluctant to contemplate how to extricate settlers from these areas.
Reggie Syriac
@eemom: maybe u r right. maybe i actually luv yr personal brand. can’t get enuff of how easily provoked u r despite how u ‘don’t give a shit.’ feel like u r a human substitute 4 the feeling i get when i watch the room.
matoko_chan
@Reggie Syriac:
not so, my bruthah!
Those are plastic corporate psuedo-bands designed by the crygenically frozen head of Walt Disney to milk the fundage of parents of tweens.
the bleeding edge of New Culture is synopsized in this Jack Sparrow cover of Ke$ha’s your love is my drug.
Amir_Khalid
@matoko_chan: Door No. 2, as I see it, would not be demographic suicide, but death arising from a congenital demographic defect.
I would be happy to see the political entity now known as Israel continue, as long as it lived up to the founding ideals Peter Beinart describes. That’s exactly the spiritual legitimacy I’m talking about.
But it looks inevitable that Jews will eventually be outnumbered within its borders, putting an end to the Jewish-majority Israel, so how can the Zionist ideal – and the Zionist nation – best survive when that day comes? I think that its best bet is its spiritual legitimacy, underpinned by the word of the prophets – the same prophets that its Muslim neighbors revere, as has been pointed out in this thread.
bago
My goodness. You have people ready to kill over the property assertions of some twit who got stuck in a desert for 40 years. Seriously.
matoko_chan
@Amir_Khalid: yet there is hope, for the wali at least.
El Cid
@bago: And what’s worse, it was just a fairy tale — the Jews weren’t enslaved in Egypt, they didn’t leave in the Exodus, and they didn’t wander in the desert for 40 years. Noah’s flood was fake too, or at least no more than a regional flood from river flooding, except for very loose speculations of a giant lake dam bursting, etc.
wobbly
This “sociopath” will be the senior senator from the great state of New York until the day he dies or decides to spend a little more time with his family.
In Manhattan?
In Tel Aviv?
Who knows? Who cares?
And yeah, I voted for this guy a time or two, and I will again.
fasteddie9318
@PeakVT:
That’s about all that needs to be said. Not only is “They don’t believe in the Torah, in David” bullshit, but even if they didn’t what fucking difference would it make? Most Jews living in Israel probably don’t believe in “Peter Pan,” but nobody would fucking starve them over it.
But, hey, Chuck is just a believer in the white man’s burden. It’s our job, as civilized, pigmentationally-challenged parents to teach our foolish brown children how to act properly, and if that means a spanking or a grounding or a few thousand deaths, so be it.
Amir_Khalid
And another thing: it really bothers me to see the Israel/Palestine dispute framed as a Jews-vs-Muslims thing. Palestinians are mostly, but not all, Muslims; a minority are Christians, and they suffer along with the Muslims.
And for the Palestinians (at least) belief and scripture are not what’s at issue here. I suspect the same might be true for secular Israeli Jews.
El Cid
More helpful political innovation from Arizona Republicans.
Observer
How many non-Palestinian watchers do we have in Gaza? By non-Palestinian I mean UN, EU, US, ad nauseum.
I see no real concern for any common Palestinian, Israeli or Arab.
Hypocrites only, satisfied to blink at the acts of Hamas while pout raging at those who actually have to deal with the situation.
A simple speech on Hamas part would put the full onus on Israel. Real onus, not the angst-ridden pathos of immature hypocrites who say stupid shit like “Israel has no right to exist! Genocide! Look at the bones!”
licensed to kill time
@El Cid:
Wow. I would think it’s pretty obvious this would require an amendment to the Constitution, or repeal of the 14th. And someone says there’s a question about that?
Just….wow.
General Egali Tarian Stuck
@El Cid: We need a thread on this one, cause you knew it was coming at some point. Next, or maybe even at the same time they will propose rescinding ex post facto those already granted, and so on down the line to all and any social services to folks they disapprove of. At some point, unless they are stopped, DNA testing for Americanism will be up for debate, and gawd only knows the criteria for that. These types of nativists will go as far as the federal government will let them, at some point, hopefully soon, Obama and Holder will need to wield the full legal weight of the federal government to crush this creeping fascism, before it takes root in the law and courts of public opinion.
Mr Furious
@Brachiator:
I’ve seen Cuba come up in these discussions a few times. It’s not a valid comparison at all. Our embargo with Cuba* is the opposite of what Israel is doing in Gaza.
We aren’t surrounding Cuba with a naval armada preventing any trade or shipping between Cuba and the rest of the world, we are enforcing a trade embargo between ourselves and Cuba. As a result, Cuba and everyone else on the planet can do whatever they want with each other.
Israel isn’t enforcing a trade embargo between itself and Gaza, it is enforcing a blockade, cutting Gaza off from the outside world and preventing trade with anyone.
See the difference?
*I think the Cuban embargo is ridiculous, and am I mistaken in recalling that Obama mentioned addressing it during the campaign?
handy
@El Cid:
I think that is the sound of the other shoe dropping.
sunsin
@liberal: Yes, at least the apartheid South African government had the sense to keep Nelson Mandela in a safe place so that they had someone they could turn to when the sh*t finally hit the fan. Israel’s motto seems to be “the worse, the better.”
gil mann
I don’t think I know any Jews who believe in the Torah.
sunsin
@General Egali Tarian Stuck:
I’m sure that simply as a political matter, Obama is delighted at the GOP becoming raving anti-Latino fanatics. That’s going to give the Latino vote to the Democrats for generations. In a few years, Republicans will be an endangered species. They have had a choice of becoming tolerant or going out in a blaze of inglory, and they’ve embraced the latter.
Svensker
@liberal:
Yes, this. That way you never have to deal with calm, rational people, only upset and/or radicalized ones. Makes your own optics so much better.
Svensker
@Steeplejack:
Yoots? Is that you, Jerry Callo?
El Cid
@General Egali Tarian Stuck: The follow up would obviously be to deport any children who don’t have birth certificates, especially those to whom they had just denied birth certificates.
General Egali Tarian Stuck
@sunsin: As a political matter, I agree completely, and recent polling is showing there in a downturn of public approval of tea bag like hateful ideology, and also improved dem unity and enthusiasm. But as a governance and legal and moral matter, and democratic health of the country, I don’t want to see it go on unchallenged legally from the Obama administration. For now it’s cool, at least till the upcoming election, but after that, it makes me mad and nervous at the same time.
matoko_chan
@Amir_Khalid: sorry, brother amir, it is already framed and written in blood as jews vs. muslims.
Bush’s war on al-Islam didn’t help.
And i don’t think that can be changed.
the christian minority gets no sympathy from the Palin/Hagee/DeMint pre-trib christofascist axis. the palestinian christians are just more staked goats to bring on the Rapture….like the rest of MENA.
Larkspur
@Amir_Khalid:
Yeah, secular Israeli Jews have long chafed under the enforced theocratic elements of their government, in which the super Orthodox Jews have a small but powerful voice. Israelis may want to go to synagogue on Saturday, but they also want to go to the beach, and wear comfy shorts in any part of Jerusalem. And some of the super-Orthodox Jews are actually anti-Zionist.
Religious zealots are so very tiresome for everyone.
I can see a two-state solution. I get that demographically things will shift and change. But they always do. That’s the great rock and the great roll of history. In my part of the U.S., Spanish has been spoken more consistently than English, but you wouldn’t know it from the misspelled protest signs like “Speak English – Your In America”.
Maybe in a hundred years, Haifa and Tel Aviv will be absolutely bilingual, Jews will tend to be fluent in Arabic, the people in the streets will look like they grew up in the Middle East, and blue eyes won’t be so common. But maybe it could also be a region where people are solving their water issues, where tourism is safe and lucrative, where the high tech industry gets stronger, women participate more in public life, and very few people visualize a bloodbath on any given day.
General Egali Tarian Stuck
@El Cid: I guess they would pile all the bundles of joy into a paddy wagon, then drop em off at the border with a good luck and can of enfamil.
Then Tom Tancreepo will go on cable news and tell us they shouldn’t have been born on the wrong side of the border in the first place, the felonious little brats.
Mark S.
There’s a reason the 14th Amendment doesn’t allow the individual states to decide who is and isn’t a citizen.
Svensker
@matoko_chan:
Nope. There was a very healthy Christian community in Iraq before our invasion. Most are all gone.
matoko_chan
@Observer: sillie observer.
Hamas doesn’t WANT the blockade to end.
Its PR gold for them.
Hamas is running the Israelis just like Hizb’ did in the summer war.
1500 dead lebanese later, Hizb’ got Sameer Kuntar, and the Israelis got 2 dead soljahs.
The blockade is the Friend of Hamas. The longer it goes on, the more concessions and freed prisoners they will get.
They don’t give a shit about the gazans, you fool.
And when its over they will be heroes, and get re-elected in the next democratic UN-observed election.
the sssssstupid it burnsssssss.
handy
How many of these idiots were the same people falling all over themselves to make sure Elian Gonzales wasn’t deported back to Cuba and into the ebil clutches of Fidel Castro?
matoko_chan
@Svensker: where did they go?killed in sectarian violence like the other 100000+ iraqi civilians under the US occupation?
matoko_chan
do you guys know what Amir Khalid means in arabic?
khalid means undying, immortal, and amir means lord.
i luff arabic….there are 77 separate words for different kinds of love.
Larkspur
@matoko_chan: Saudi Arabia likes things the way they are, too. The Islamic fundamentalists are busy elsewhere, few Middle Eastern countries are trending toward glasnost or democracy, and we Americans still need them so much we’ll hold their hands, smile for the cameras, and help them get out of Dodge before they can be interviewed about U.S. homeland security issues. The whole thing is a big cash cow for arms manufacturers, security firms, construction consortiums, blah blah blah, and Israelis and Palestinians worry about their children every single damn day. God, it would be sweet to see all the residents of Israel and the Occupied Lands say a big fuck you to foreign corporations and states, and start helping each other rebuild.
I know, I know. I’m going away now.
Larkspur
One last thing before I really shut up: I really really miss Marla Ruzicka.
Terrell
@Dave:
Yeah, I’m pretty sure foreigners could say the same damn thing about the “election” spectacle that took place in this country in 2000. Perhaps we should clean up our own act before we hypocritically make accusations about other countries.
Just a friendly thought…
Amir_Khalid
@matoko_chan: I’m sure that’s why my dad gave me the name. He was fluent in Arabic.
El Cid
Since this was reported earlier, a correction.
matoko_chan
@Amir_Khalid: it is a beautiful name.
my muslim name is shams, after the queen of the slavegirls in the Arabian Nights story. i chose it when i reverted.
;)
matoko_chan
@Larkspur: In an interview with former Argentine president Néstor Kirchner, Oliver Stone learned that [George W] Bush claimed that waging war was a formula for economic growth. Here’s the key exchange:
Amir_Khalid
@matoko_chan: That sounds about right for the subject of the song American Idiot.
Svensker
@matoko_chan:
Fled or killed. I met a big bunch of them on a plane one day — they were being sent by our government to the mid-west US somewhere. They were all terrified and had upset stomachs because of the food and all the changes they’d been through. My husband speaks a bit of Arabic so he was able to help a bit. They were so grateful for the kindness and all the while they had been forced to flee their homes and land and leave so much behind. What a kindness.
Bruce (formerly Steve S.)
Er, neither do I. Maybe they should blockade my house.
Mike G
@handy:
That was the only time you’ll ever see Repigs protesting a SWAT team raid on a house full of Latinos.
Kyle
@matoko_chan:
War has certainly been the foundation of the Bush family’s
wealthloot, dating back to the Walkers making a fortune profiteering off WW1. Then of course there was Prescott financing Hitler, and the Bush I and II routine political exploitation of wars of choice. So I can see how a solipsistic, incurious asshole with a comic-book intellect like W would think war is good for the economy; he thinks the country is his plaything, and war has been damn good to him.300baud
@Dave:
Get the timeline right, Dave.
In January 2006, Hamas edged out Fatah in an election. Israel more or less immediately started sanctions. That was all more than a year before the Battle of Gaza. And according to the article that you link to, the US was collaborating with Fatah to arrange a coup, and the battle of Gaza was in reaction to that. So although there are plenty of things to blame Hamas for, that doesn’t seem like one of them.
ciotog
@gil mann:
Schumer was talking to the ones who do. It was an Orthodox audience.
matoko_chan
@Svensker: i think a lot of muslims will necessarily be given asylum here in the US when the withdraw starts in earnest. There are going to be a lot of revanchists in Iraq, and Bush did whack over 100000 of their citizens. Iraqis perceived as helping American troops facilitate muslim genocide are going to be persona-nongrata.
Going to give steve sailor and the rest of the “nativists” apoplexy i betcha…given that all “muzzies” are proto-terrorists, that will be much worse than mexicans, lol.
matoko_chan
@Amir_Khalid: <3 Greenday.
Steeplejack
@Svensker:
Yes, it is I.
GregB
The coup was launched against the legally elected Hamas government and was reportedly armed and instigated by the American CIA.
Hamas squashed the putsch. Another major league CIA fail.
Steve R.
@matoko_chan:
It’s fine for Beinart to shake his head and deplore Deir Yassin at this point in history, but Deir Yassin served its purpose in helping to create the Jewish state Beinart supports, which territory was cleared by terrorizing the indigenous population and driving out those who wouldn’t leave. In other words, it scared hell out of the natives. Beinart is a warlike little fella and I have a feeling that had he been engaging in punditry in 1948 his view would be somewhat different.
matoko_chan
@Steve R.: yeah, agreed.
Like Andy Jackson was a sumbitch but the Union probably wouldn’t have survived without him.
Sheila
Is Schumer implying it is wrong that Palestinians do not believe in the Torah? By this way of thinking, then doesn’t it mean that Schumer is wrong to not believe in the Koran? Does he believe the Torah is more believable because it came first? By this way of thinking, the Hindu Rig Veda is older than either, so we should all believe in that (and, really, there is much wisdom in it, as there is in most religious literature, if one takes them metaphorically).
miwome
Well, Hamas got its start in the Muslim Brotherhood, an organization that is generally considered to be Egypt’s resident Scary Islamists but exists in several countries and is defined by its focus on social revolution (that is, promoting Islam through social work and leading by example) and its disinterest in violence. Hamas was created out of the MB as a separate organization in 1987, at the beginning of the First Intifada, because the MB was trying to avoid becoming politically irrelevant in a social context that was heading for conflict with or without the MB. It became totally independent pretty fast, but those roots are evident in all the social organizations and service work Hamas supported and provided throughout its existence, and especially in the late nineties.
Hamas was actually strengthened at first (basically until the Oslo Accords) by Israel, who thought that fostering it would weaken the PLO (i.e. Fatah and Yasser Arafat). And they were right about that, but it didn’t really work out how they thought it would.
miwome
@Dave: As for Hamas offering anything–in 2004, Hassan Yusuf, who was in charge of Hamas in the West Bank, began making noises about a “long-term truce” with Israel on the basis of a state along the ’67 borders, and Hamas generally dropped a lot of hints in 2004 and 2005, including recognizing the Oslo Accords as a political reality that it could no longer ignore or seek to overturn.
That may not seem like much to us, but for Hamas it was huge: the Oslo Accords were pretty much teh basis of all political competition in the Palestinian Territories since their inception. They were the major point of disagreement between Fatah and Hamas. That Hamas acknowledged that they were a fact of life that it was prepared to deal with represented a major shift in their thinking, and now we have no way of knowing what might have come of that since the US, Israel and Fatah immediately did everything they could to fuck over the Hamas government before it could get started. The address Ismail Haniyeh gave to the legislative assembly after Hamas won the 2006 elections came as close to endorsing the two-state solution as he politically could have done without completely abandoning the political identity that got Hamas into power in the first place, but again, we’ll never know where that might have led.
I’m pretty sure Dave doesn’t care, but those are the facts.