The NRA is no longer turning that frown upside down at Red State:
There are few organizations purportedly on the side of freedom that aggravate me more than the National Rifle Association.
In fact, these days I cringe when I see good conservatives with their lifetime member sticker from the NRA on the back of their cars. I support Gun Owners of America, which is a consistent and uncompromising defender of the second amendment, not a weak little girl of an organization protecting itself while throwing everyone else under the bus.
But that’s what the National Rifle Association is doing. You and I are willing to stand together because we know we either stand together or hang separately. The NRA legislative strategy in the past few years has been to hang everybody else so they can be the last man standing — more interested in maintaining the veneer of bipartisanship than actually standing up for the second amendment.
Insert your no true Scotsman jokes here.
And not surprisingly, they have it completely bass-ackwards. The NRA hasn’t sold out to Democrats, Democrats have sold out to the NRA. Democrats so rarely stand up to the NRA anymore that it is astonishing news when they do, and even then by the slightest of margins.
General Egali Tarian Stuck
The NRA is a big bus on the winger side, Erik better watch it, they could fit a dumptruck full of his fat ass under that sucker.
mr. whipple
Speaking of the NRA,
cleek
i’m not going to go look, but is there any chance that GOA is a new RS advertiser ?
assuming venal motives makes more sense than assuming Erickson has deeply-held principles.
Stroszek
OBAMER TURK MA’ GUNZ!
wengler
I remember when Dean was running he had an A rating from the NRA…and they did nothing to help his campaign.
Screw these rightwing gun humpers.
Dr. Squid
Awwww, did WedStater’s feefees get huwt because the NRA went and endorsed Ted Strickland in Ohio?
Napoleon
I am not going to click on the Redstate link so sorry if this is what set them off and I am repeating it but yesterday the NRA endorsed Dem. Ted Strickland for Governor of Ohio over Rep Kasich.
jibeaux
Splitters.
Ash Can
I have no idea in hell WTF Boy Erick is talking about, and I’m not going to click on the link to (try to) find out what it is.
And General Stuck raises an interesting point right off the bat. I can’t imagine the NRA would cotton to comments like these from a RW blogger, especially one who has made himself as prominent as this oaf has. Karma and payback are twin bitches.
beltane
@wengler: Vermont has some of the highest gun ownership rates in the country. A lot of hippie fake Americans own guns here, a fact the NRA would like to ignore at all costs.
TomG
This doesn’t surprise me – I don’t read Redstate, but I’ve gotten the distinct impression from a few libertarian sites that the NRA is regarded as a lot less dedicated than the GOA or a couple of other similar organizations for gun owners.
Zifnab
If the NRA isn’t campaigning aggressively against the Democrats’ non-existent anti-gun policy, they’re worthless to the Republican Party. What’s the point of a single-issue special interest group if it refuses to engage in issueless double-talk and partisan shit fitting for the sole purpose of getting Republicans elected. What the hell does the NRA think it’s job is anyway?
beltane
Totally OT, but New Zealand just scored a goal in the last few seconds of its game with Slovakia to end it with a 1-1 tie. It was their first goal ever in any World Cup match.
mistermix
My big-time hunter, Republican brother-in-law dropped his NRA membership because they were spending all their time and money on bullshit like cop killer bullets and assault weapons.
Apparently the NRA isn’t pleasing anyone lately.
ChrisS
@cleek:
I think you might be on to something.
Then again while the NRA squashes email chain rumors, GOA seems to be like the group that starts them. They’d fit right in with the paranoid freaks at RedState.
Punchy
WOW. Red State trashing a staunch defender. Truly WTF territory.
Will Erick now advocate they send bullets to Charelton Heston’s grave?
BR
I love that he screws up “hang together or hang separately” as “stand together”.
Norman Rogers
I’m afraid that only Erick Erickson is paranoid enough to think that the Democrats and the NRA are working together. What’s next? Jane Hamsher and Grover Norquist? Like that’ll ever happen…
Whoops!
SpotWeld
Yeah, count down until Erik puts up a “walk back” post.
( Not an apology or retract, just a little “give NRA money to stop Obama from taking our guns away” sort of thing. )
Is the NRA backing the Red Dawn remake in any way?
Zifnab
@Norman Rogers: In all fairness, FDL was getting cozy with Grover Norquist.
Norman Rogers
@Zifnab: Sarcasm flies above your head, does it?
Mary
I don’t know why I am surprised that Red Staters are such big fans of Citizens’ United, but for some reason I am.
Norman Rogers
A one year membership in the NRA is running about $35 these days, and even if the majority of members are only signing up for that, it amounts to a massive investment. Has anyone ever driven past their headquarters in Northern Virginia?
The only reason why Erickson is tangling with them is because he’s convinced–convinced!–they’re afraid of him. Why, he can put out the word and create a massive army of…of…technologists!
That, my friends, is the sound of someone who means business. NRA, y’all better cry for mercy. Erickson is going to get his army of technologists together and run the table. I can see it now–the NRA shuts down their headquarters and disbands because Erickson came up with a widget that destroyed them, utterly.
Redshift
@TomG: Well, sure, from what I understand the NRA has long since become a gun manufacturers lobby that gets
suckersmembers to pay for the privilege of supporting industry interests by convincing them that it’s actually working for them. But since that’s the same way most right-wing advocacy groups work, it’s still a bit surprising to find them catching on to the scam.Morbo
@mistermix: Indeed, IMO the NRA is a good example of a group that has a leadership that’s actually more extreme than its membership. There are plenty of its members here in deer hunter country who are all for sensible gun control, and these are not even the Democrats. And yet the NRA opposes any sort of restriction on one’s ability to buy depleted uranium bullets (I exaggerate, I think?). So yeah, I also think they are out of touch, but in the opposite of the way Erick seems to think they are.
Redshift
@Norman Rogers: Wow, it really must have left a mark, that time when he had to publicly beg for technical help because all the techies are lefties and market-worshiping RedState couldn’t get anyone to do the work for free.
I have to say, if this statement were actually true, it would make him quite unique in the wingnutosphere…
stuckinred
Renaldo with a punk-ass flop.
The Moar You Know
@Norman Rogers: What the fuck? Has Erickson gone all commie on us?
kay
@Napoleon:
I did click the link and that is what set them off. A lot of cover blather about Citizens, but really it’s the Strickland endorsement.
Purportedly, supposedly, the new GOP strategy in Ohio in 2010 is the test for the new GOP strategy nation-wide in 2012. Ohio 2010 is the dry run for US 2012.
I think we can assume from this that strategy included “NRA endorses any Republican”.
Betrayed by their buddies. That has to hurt.
kay
@Napoleon:
Gene108
I’ve read other conservatives, who hate the NRA and only support GOA and other gun groups.
I really think we’re going to run into a situation where we wish we had a “moderate” gun group like the NRA.
Gun regulations are a losing political issue. The gun owners are far more passionate and more easily riled up by perceived encroachment on their gun ownership rights than the people, who push for tighter gun laws. Most people are generally apathetic on gun issues, so the one group that really cares gets to make that much more noise.
Napoleon
@kay:
Really? Anw what would that stratagy be? With John Kasich they picked someone who was on the payroll of Lehman Bros. which Strickland has been mercilessly hammering on, and with Portman they picked Bush’s trade representative to run against Fisher.
cat48
Checked out the website for GOA & they even think “Obamacare is Anti-gun” whatever the hell that means. They really hate the prez at that site so I can see why Redstate is fond of the org.
Alex S.
That endorsement has got to hurt though…. the Strickland/Fisher ticket will beat Kasich/Portman. And Ohio will continue to be moving ever so slightly to the left.
By the way, I’ve thought that Howard Dean basically re-energized the Democratic party post-2004 by stripping gun control from the party platform and by doing so, making them viable again in rural areas and the midwest.
QuaintIrene
Hmmm, maybe Red State can help with any legal troubles Kathy Myers might have. You know, the woman mentioned a few posts down, who shot herself in the shoulder hoping doctors might fix another injury they had previously refused cause she’s uninsured.
Norman Rogers
@The Moar You Know: No, the real reason why he is so agitated is because the revolution is passing him by. He has no power, really. Having forty or fifty thousand readers at Red State no longer means anything because actual advocacy organizations with people who actually pay money on a regular basis to belong is killing whatever business model he has.
Better to just start and run your own crazy blog with whatever you want to put on there then hope and pray that the chuckleheads who are broke and want to write diaries about their favorite memory of Dan Quayle’s debate win against Lloyd Bentsen aren’t going to inadvertently leave a stray piece of html in their post.
Real Republicans actually hate Erickson. He’s too unstable to rely upon, too obscure to be taken seriously, and being a city councilman in Macon, Georgia isn’t exactly the ticket to the big time.
Napoleon
@Alex S.:
Ordinarily I would say it doesn’t matter much, but at least in the Cleveland area the endorsement has gotten a ton of air time, and I think it will signal to a certain segment that it is OK to vote Strickland, and as close as I think it is going to be it literally could make the difference.
Nick
@Alex S.:
You mean the NRA-endorsed former Governor of the state of Vermont, home of the only Socialist Senator who also voted for a bill to let guns into national parks? That Howard Dean?
Bill H
I became a lifetime member of the NRA back in 1960, when it was still an advocacy group for the sport of shooting. I resigned that membership about twenty years later because it no longer had anything whatever to do with sport or sportsmanship, and I did not want to be part of the leverage it was using to blackmail and extort members of Congress.
Zifnab
@Norman Rogers: The internet puts sarcasm on hard mode.
Dan B
@beltane: First point in the WC, not their first goal. They scored two against Scotland in a 5-2 loss in 1982.
Zifnab
@cat48: If you shoot someone, Obamacare is just going to fix that person right up again. Why would I even bother shooting you?!
kay
@Napoleon:
Not strategy in that sense. They were really effective in 2004 in identifying their voters and getting them out. I don’t really agree that Kerry did a poor job, which has become sort of the conventional wisdom. Republicans just did a great job. They plan to run 2004 again, in terms of “micro-targeting”, precinct-level organizers, etc. Democrats in Ohio say Obama ran against the GOP “B” team, in terms of the McCain campaign. They know they won’t get that lucky again. In 2012, they’ll get the GOP “A” team, as they did in 2004.
If all NRA members are also straight GOP voters, they’re easy to reach and easy to identify. Now, with the Strickland endorsement, NRA members might split a ticket, vote for Strickland for governor and the Republican for Senate.
kay
@Napoleon:
Generally, though, I agree with you. Strickland is the better candidate.
I don’t know about Fisher. He’ll have Strickland and Sherrod Brown so maybe that will help. I don’t know that Brunner would have been any better.
Nick
@Napoleon:
Never underestimate the right wing’s ability to get someone to vote against their own economic interests on some idiotic minutia like abortion, gays, or guns.
inkadu
@beltane: People in VT probably buy guns as collectors instead of using them for their intended American purpose: shooting beer cans off of fence posts.
Norman Rogers
@Zifnab: No worries, my friend! My head swims when I try to follow these things.
Sentient Puddle
So wait, lemme get this straight and see if I understand this properly. Red State is in a tizzy because they think the NRA isn’t going far enough?
Because if that’s truly the case, it’s probably about as close to Peak Wingnut as we’ve ever seen.
The Other Chuck
Chief among this inclusive “we” will be the very gun nuts the GOA is recruiting. These guys are so nakedly partisan and so rabidly fringe that there isn’t a single Democrat who will bother trying to please them.
You keep on pushing the NRA toward being an exclusive Republican Men’s club, Erik son of Erik. We’ll drown the lot of you in a bathtub yet.
joe from Lowell
The only action the Obama administration has taken on guns has been to allow people to carry them in national parks, one of the NRA’s long-standing goals. That’s it. No gun control legislation, no executive orders, nothing except meetings one of the NRA’s long-standing policy goals.
In response, the NRA gave Barack Obama an F on their candidate rankings. An F. This is pure, blind partisanship, completely unmoored from the drive to promote the NRA’s agenda on guns. They’re behaving like Eric Cantor, simply rejecting and denouncing the president and the Democrats, no matter what they do.
And yet, to Red State, the NRA has sold out to the Democrats in the name of bipartisanship.
What a bunch of kooks. There is simply no relationship between reality and what comes out of movement conservatives’ keyboards anymore.
Tsulagi
Think pure teaggers like EE tend to focus more on the attached rounds.
Yeah, no surprise factor there from a group that tends to put on their assless chaps backwards.
Not the first time since going teabagger Commander EE has called the NRA pussies. That from the teatwarrior who in a post was dribbling starbursts at the thought of meeting Bible Spice and asking her advice on buying his first gun. That just fits on a couple of levels.
Napoleon
@Nick:
That is depressingly true, but with Kasich they have been running non-stop ads about how he took big bucks from Lehman when he was in Congress, went to work for them and now refuses to release his tax records to show what he earned from them, which is sure to be some eye popping number and my bet is something he never releases so Strickland can keep it up from now until November. As a bonus I heard a segment on the radio today where the Strickland people dug up where Kasich assailed an opponent of his when running for Congress for not releasing his tax returns and the reported asked Kasich PR flunkie about it who of course angrily replied that it was somehow irrelivent because Strickland is trying to not talk about his record (Kasich is on the air with ads with a similar message). I have a hard time believing that if they keep it up Kasich will end up with terminal poll numbers.
Seeral Wett
Remember when the Tea Party Express rolled through Fleshlight and in response Harry Reid went to the shooting range and touted his NRA street cred? That was so hot.
celticdragonchick
@Napoleon:
I’m guessing this story from yesterday is also twisting their panties over at Redstate.
I actually do happen to be an NRA member, which is a rarity here. All the same, I also happen to like the fact that the NRA does support Dems who are strong on firearms freedoms.
I realize that YMMV concerning this sentiment.
Sheila
Since I’ve been paying attention, it seems the NRA is mainly about pushing a rightwing agenda, with gun rights being secondary. What amazes me the most about the diehard gun nuts (this does not refer to hunters) is their “patriotism”. What could possibly be so great about a country in which one feels one has to perpetually “protect” oneself from one’s fellow citizens by carrying a lethal weapon? A country is only as good as its people. If you see your country as a nation of psychopaths who are out to get you, how can you be proud of it?
Chyron HR
Republicans really aren’t very bright, are they?
joe from Lowell
From celticdragonchick’s link:
Here is a Senator that has consistently voted in favor of every single piece of legislation that the Leftwing promotes, including being a shill for the Obama extremist agenda on healthcare, cap and trade, the Wall Street Bailout, and the stimulus bill.
Yet the NRA gives Reid a ringing endorsement simply because he has supported gun legislation on which the NRA looks favorably.
See what I mean? What the hell do HCR, cap and trade, TARP, and the ARRA have to do with gun rights?
Absolutely nothing. These wingnut extremists are doing nothing less than demanding that any and every inssues group with which they are aligned cease promoting the actual issue their members signed up to support, and instead become a foot soldier for the conservative movement.
What a nasty, oppressive, fascist mentality.
casey
@Norman Rogers:
So the solution is socialism, once again.
Maybe the fact that RedState can’t find any geeks to volunteer their time is that Erickson is exactly the sort of wanker who used to pick on us geeky kids back in school. Or maybe because, unlike political blogging, anyone with enough skills to do the crap Erick wants could just as easily be doing it for a paying customer.
If Republicans are vastly smarter than Democrats, couldn’t they just, you know, go buy a book on computer programming and teach themselves?
I know software development is easy, because I am one, and I’m about as left-wing as they come, and therefore stupid. If a gay narwhal hugger like me can learn to program, surely Erickson or one of the rest of the RedState braintrust could do the same?
celticdragonchick
@Sheila:
I happen to be a transgendered woman who has been stalked and threatened, as has my spouse. I have twice been forced to flee for my life(from bus stops!) from belligerent men who thought I would be a prime time example for GLBT bashing entertainment.
60% of trans women reportedly have been assaulted and/or raped.
That is why I absolutely support carrying defensive weapons, including handguns. My SKS rifle is a tad gauche for everyday carry, so a Ruger P series handgun is a more appropriate and effective weapon for the instance when I and my family cannot escape from a group of freaks who want to beat me and my wife or my son to death.
kay
Oh, and screw them for using the “weak little girl” comparison.
They have real manhood issues, over there. I don’t know why girls are always unwillingly drawn into their embarrassingly transparent screeds.
celticdragonchick
@kay:
Good observation.
chopper
@celticdragonchick:
you’re kinda proving sheila’s point there.
Ash Can
@chopper: Keep in mind that celticdragonchick is being a realist about the whole issue, not an uber-“patriot” like Sheila’s talking about.
Nick
@Napoleon: Well that’s important, keep the focus on the economy and the banks, mitigate the God, Guns and Gays argument.
PTirebiter
@cat48:
That thought, left unattended, was sure to give me a day long I gotsta know headache, so…
Obamacare is anti-gun because: Health care workers are required to keep records, and records create databases and data bases are central to Obama’s real plan.
A diagnosis like bat-shit crazy would become a part of your permanent record and that could be used to delay delivery of the metric shit-load of armor piercing bullets you’ve ordered.
The mandate could gut the firearm budget of the average citizen.
It creates incentives for business owners to encourage/coerce their employees to adopt healthier lifestyles.
Their is nothing in Obamacare that would specifically prohibit the HHS Secretary from declaring guns unhealthy.
They’re all so insidious, I can’t pick a favorite.
El Cid
Again, a real test of their 2nd Amendment faith (hallowed be its name, all blessings be upon it) will be, again, the New Black Panther / La Raza / ACORN II / CAIR / Nation of Islam sponsored “People of Color Million Gun Owner March on Washington”.
asr
They’re not standing up to the NRA. They’re standing up to the American people. As usual. The NRA has millions and millions of members who choose to pay dues every year, and in polls, the American people consistently support the NRA’s positions (their real positions, not the strawmen the lefties howl about).
What you have to realize is this: It doesn’t matter. Our loving masters have us on a path to be in worse financial shape than Greece in ten years. Gun rights are microscopic compared to that. The Democrats would have to be mentally retarded to waste political capital on purely symbolic cultural issues like gun control. Don’t be emotional. This issue is not important. I know, it feels vitally important to you, because gun control annoys people you hate passionately, and nothing feels more important to you than hurting them and taking their stuff, any way you can.
But there are other ways to hurt them and take their stuff, ways that do more damage to them AND to the country as a whole, and are much more politically feasible right now. You have to just let this one go. The point is to HURT them, right? It’s not about HOW you hurt them. Just that they get hurt.
I understand your feelings: You have to hurt them because they’re not like you, and you hate them so very, very much. You hate the way you imagine they talk! You hate the way you imagine they look! You hate the hats that you imagine they all wear! You hate the brand of beer you imagine they drink! Everything about them, in your imagination, is ugly and wrong and it smells bad! And that imagination of yours is a very admirable thing. Hating the Other is what virtue is all about. The more obsessively you hate and fear the Other, the more virtuous you are. So naturally you’re emotional about it, but sometimes you have to take a deep breath, and accept that virtuous people can have legitimate differences about HOW to punish the Other for being different, without anybody asking any Forbidden Questions about whether the Other does actually need to be punished. Everybody here agrees that punishing the Other will make everything nice and happy for everybody! It’s the one perfect solution to all our problems!
Look, you want centralization of power, right? You fear businesses and “the rich” because they’re centers of power in the hands of private citizens. You want an end to accountability. You want all business decisions made to benefit the ruling party, not the shareholders, and certainly not the customers. You want the ruling party controlling the media so nobody asks embarrassing questions. You want “justice” determined on the basis of race and class, not guilt or innocence. You’re getting all that, some sooner, some later. Guns? Who gives a shit? Grow up.
Relax. Your loving masters know what they’re doing, and they’re a lot smarter than you are. So chill out and play along. You’re not going to be one of the rulers, kid. Accept that. Nobody’s asking you to contribute any ideas here. You’re like every timid little creep who ever wanted a Strong Leader Who’ll Get Things Done and Punish the Scapegoats: In your fantasy, you identify with the Leader, and you feel like his power is yours. It isn’t, of course. You’re a serf, and that’s all you’ll ever be.
Christ…
celticdragonchick
@chopper:
Possibly. It is what it is. As a culture, we do tend to be permissive of violence towards minorities who do not fit in well with the primary cultural mores or ethnic group. We (American culture) are also notoriously violent towards groups that challenge cultural tradition wrt sexual identity and expression, such as gays, lesbians, transgendered people and inter-sexed people.
Much of this is wrapped up in Judeo-Christian religious views of male and female roles as well as “Just World” theory (victims have it coming, poor people deserve it because they screwed up and God punished them, etc) and the presumption that God just cannot make mistakes. Pointing out that there are horrible and deforming birth defects does not seem to register, because that would challenge the “God make perfect babies because God had made you just fine to begin with and you most have chosen to be a pervert” argument that they come up with.
Ash Can
@El Cid: Yep — when there’s a Republican Congress and a Republican in the White House too.
Morbo
Also:
“Amen, brother. I don’t go anywhere without my mutated anthrax … for duck hunting.”
GregB
People of faith brace yourselves.
First Touchdown Jesus burns.
Now Thomas Kinkade, the painter of light is in trouble.
There is only so much we can take.
jibeaux
Oh, chances are pretty good they’re packing too…
But I’m not diminishing your argument. It’s the NRA’s willingness to endorse cop-killer bullets, assault rifles, handguns evading airport screenings, and other policies with no legitimate self-defense or sporting purpose that I object to. And the fact that they are completely batshit paranoid, of course.
celticdragonchick
@Ash Can:
Thanks.
Keeping a gun isn’t about chest thumping “Fer Real American” bullshit.
Where I am concerned, I have to weigh my odds of actual harm with the likelihood of police intervention…and in my previous experience, the police would have found my body (in whatever state) after the fact had I not escaped. I cannot be sure of being able to always escape since I have a degenerative joint disease, and I often have my young son and spouse with me (who has cerebral palsey).
If I am confronted again, which seems likely, I will have to be able to defend myself and my family immediately. Thankfully, I do have military experience with firearms to draw on.
kindness
Who likes This Modern World by Tom Tomorrow?
today’s Invisible-hand-of the-free-market-man!
is great.
stuckinred
@celticdragonchick: Best to have a shotgun in the house, don’t want those rounds going through the walls and hitting the wrong person.
slippy
@Redshift:
You mean, they were too cheap to pay someone to do it?
PTirebiter
@celticdragonchick:
Would you be opposed to stricter policies for sales and licensing?
Fleas correct the era
“…it’s probably about as close to Peak Wingnut as we’ve ever seen.”
Has Irksome labeled the NRA goat-f***ing child molesters yet?
celticdragonchick
@jibeaux:
The first group I encountered in Indianapolis almost certainly was. The second group were some young and very drunk college frat boy types who wanted to continue their evening entertainment on me. I doubt that they were armed beyond having fists and belts/belt buckles or possibly a knife.
That being said, an armed person has more options then an unarmed person, and I do not intend to be found with my head cut off and 50 stab wounds (extreme mutilation seems to be the norm with many trans woman murders, including those where there was no sex or prostitution involved).
celticdragonchick
@stuckinred:
True. The SKS uses a 7.63X39mm round which is similar in performance to a .30-30. Round over-penetration is an issue.
celticdragonchick
@PTirebiter:
I couldn’t say one way or the other without specifics.
Walt
@ El Cid.
@El Cid:
Funny you bring that up. I think they have been tested and they can’t even see it. One of my coworkers was listening to Mike Savage’s show last night and the guest host brought up the fact that “Obama’s thugs”AKA Black Panthers were ARMED WITH GUNS and dressed in cammies outside of voting booths and this intimdated people into voting for Obama. Yet, few months before, the same guest host went on about how people packin’ heat at Obama’s health care town halls in Arizona was “perfectly normal” and the fact that “the liberal elitists” were concerned about this just shows how out of touch liberals are with real Americans.
Armed Black Panthers BAD. Armed Tea Party guys GOOD.
eemom
@Norman Rogers:
but didn’t Erickson get a gig on CNN? After Lady Jane endorsed him as “an honest broker” with whom she could engage in some Serious Debate.
stuckinred
@celticdragonchick: Yea, I remember. I’m so old I trained with an M-14 before they gave us those little plastic things. :)
b-psycho
As celticdragonchick’s experience demonstrates, the attitude of the right-wing towards anyone not a rich white straight male bible-thumper is, in and of itself, an argument for the Left to be pro-gun-rights. The bigoted, paranoid scum out there will never disarm no matter how many laws you throw up, so why should we?
celticdragonchick
@stuckinred:
Heh! :)
El Cid
If you ban guns, you’ll have to ban mayonnaise, thus when condiments are outlawed, only outlaws will use condiments.
And you wonder why so many cops are quick to use their Tasers — who knows when some suspect can pull out a Dijon and totally ruin a cop’s shirt until at least wash day.
tkogrumpy
@chopper: There is a difference between thinking they are out to get you, and knowing it.
Dr. Squid
@GregB:
Again? You mean taking a whiz on Winnie The Pooh wasn’t enough for him?
TruthOfAngels
@beltane:
ALso OT, but it wasn’t.
1982 World Cup: Scotland 5 – 2 New Zealand
Punchy
John, is it too much to request for a once or twice daily WC open thread? I’m fascinated (addicted?) to this tournament and need a place to ask questions.
quaythxbuy
PTirebiter
@celticdragonchick:
I haven’t followed the existing laws but I think some basics are in order. Background checks before all sales, including any secondary markets and licensing to demonstrate competency and a basic knowledge of the pertinent laws. I would think a permit to carry should have more stringent licensing and renewal requirements.
celticdragonchick
@PTirebiter:
Possibly so. I think there is some room for compromise. The NRA proceeds from a mistrust of any government power (with some justification, given that police overreach and prosecutorial abuse is far from rare in this country) and has some knee jerk reactions which are a left over from the Howard Metzenbaum days where the presumption was that all guns would be banned and that only a sociopath would ever consider owning a gun for any reason.
That is not the reality now, and the NRA does need to take that into account when dealing with good faith efforts to improve safety while preserving firearms freedoms.
Michael
I’m wondering if all these white gun rubbers would be upset at my plan to fundraise and provide free guns to MS-13 members in Phoenix?
Hey, here’s a video that might bug them – the Street Sweeper Social Club.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYfuNpGOOu0
QuaintIrene
Really. They obviously haven’t done any baby sitting lately.
AhabTRuler
@inkadu: Nope, people in VT buy guns to shoot fish (barrel not included).
chopper
@Ash Can:
yes, but the question “What could possibly be so great about a country in which one feels one has to perpetually “protect” oneself from one’s fellow citizens by carrying a lethal weapon?” still stands, dunnit?
what’s so great about a country where you have to carry a gun because people want to kill you for merely being the person you were born as?
as much as it’s silly when pointed at gun nuts who are convinced that everyone is out to get them, the same question, more aptly, begs to be asked in other circumstances.
maybe its just that CDC’s story got me depressed is all.
Bnut
Is it just more, or do people at RS have the longest damn signatures on the internet? Trying to make your posts look longer and more commented? Only so many Patrick Henry quotes and screeds on “Bambi” or “Barry’s” soshulism before I start to question your
intelligencesanity.licensed to kill time
__
Ewick hijo de Ewick oughter grab one ‘a them there technologists to fix his fugly website. Srsly.
Sentient Puddle
So uh…OT, but can I geek out over what Nintendo is doing at E3 right now? Because this shit is totally bananas.
liberal
@celticdragonchick:
Why do you think the NRA would ever deal in good faith?
Bubblegum Tate
@Punchy:
Ha! I LOLed.
some other guy
Personally, I don’t really have a problem with other people owning guns, but this is why I’ll never own one:
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/359/10/989
Between that and accidental discharge, I’d be quite a bit more likely to off myself with a gun than to defend myself with it.
JohnR
@Norman Rogers:
Where I grew up, any building that was completely glass exterior like that one would be losing a couple panes a week to ‘target practice’. I suppose they made theirs out of bullet-proof glass, though.
PTirebiter
@celticdragonchick:
I tend to agree. Unfortunately, I don’t see how any politician would risk even the mildest proposal made in the best of faith.
Regardless of it’s merits, the NRA would see the fundraising potential and quickly realize if they didn’t exploit it, somebody else would. I’m afraid they’ve salted the fields on this issue and there’s no end in sight.
Hob
@celticdragonchick:
Odd how, in spite of Metzenbaum’s supposed anti-gun mania (the “ban them all” quote is repeated so often by far-right websites that it’s no longer possible to find any other citation for it), his major achievement in that area was the Brady Act– which bears no resemblance to the “presumption” you’re describing, except in the fever dreams of the NRA, and is still the law today.
steve
@mr. whipple:
Booman needs to make it clear how to comment on their site. I looked around for 5 mins and didn’t seen any instructions or entry boxes.
SiubhanDuinne
@Chyron HR:
Congratulations. You have won the “rhetorical question of the day” award.
JohnR
@stuckinred:
“Best to have a shotgun in the house, don’t want those rounds going through the walls and hitting the wrong person. ”
Not to mention that a shotgun fired indoors loosens sphincters like nobody’s business, and as a plus, you don’t have to be too accurate (for most of us the key point). Also the neighbors may not call 911 if they happen to hear a 9mm, but a shotgun going off next door draws attention. But of course, we’re talking reality here, not the Rambo-fantasies that many manly men use to justify their anti-home-invasion stockpiles.
eemom
@steve:
you have to register with a screen name and password before you can comment.
suzanne
Does anyone else remember the NRA’s ad campaign featuring Charlton Heston, Tom Selleck, Karl Malone, and a few other people no one gives a rat’s ass about posing with their guns, featuring the “I’m the NRA” tagline? I’m trying to find images of those ads. Those were hilarious. I desperately wanted one with someone like Biggie Smalls posing with his array of semiautomatics.
stuckinred
@JohnR: In most cases racking that bad mofo sends em to the exits.
maus
It does make sense. Just as the teabaggers refuse to “moderate” themselves like the GOP does, the NRA isn’t radical enough for them.
steve
@eemom:
you’d think they’d mention that somewhere on the page…
jl
The only small grain of truth in the excerpt that I can see is that, IMHO, the the true purpose of the NRA is to protect and promote the arms and ammo industry.
So, in that sense, it is no true Scotsman for the wingers who want to blow up everything.
Otherwise, the Red State post is crazy.
ed drone
Speaking of guns, this (http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/06/15/florida.air.base.arrests/index.html?hpt=T2)* is interesting. I wonder where the perps will “fall,” vis a vis left-to-right terrorists? My instincts make me suspect another Beck-O’Reilly-Hannity-inspired skinhead type, but then it could be he’s something else.
Ed
Footnote: * I tried to link, but it failed.
stuckinred
@some other guy: I’m with you. When I got out of the Army I realized I didn’t want to live that way anymore. ESPN had a special on athletes and guns and this one baseball player talked about how, when he started carrying in his ride, everything looked like a threat. I have guns in the house but they are in no way for protection. They are secured and the ammo is far away. If you are going to have them for protection they need to be ready to roll and I personally can’t live like that. No problem with those who do but it ain’t for me.
Check out this for the ultra-paranoid!
Martin
@JohnR: Manly men deal with their home invaders using a ka-bar and the improvised bomb-in-the-microwave trick. Blood on the carpet and a wrecked kitchen gets the wife new carpet and a new kitchen from insurance without you having to deal with patching drywall and repainting due to bullet holes.
Real men Rambo the invaders with consideration to the honey-do list.
Chuck Butcher
From personal experience I can say that the NRA will give an honest grade on a politician’s gun issues stances or votes. That doesn’t change the fact that they’re politically conservative and any support a liberal gets will be based soley on gun policy and in the case of D v R with the same or similar “grades” the D will get the grade and no more said while the R will get support.
As for D kowtowing to the NRA, heh – apply the same 1st A standards you hold to the 2nd and get back to me.
Martin
Holy fuck, there are North Korean fans in the stands?
BombIranForChrist
I have to come to some Dem’s defense here.
I am a proud liberal, but I don’t believe in gun control. I think this whole 2nd amendment deification is a load of horseshit of course, but this doesn’t take away from my belief that law abiding citizens should be able to buy whatever gun they want.
So maybe some Dems “cave” to the NRA because it’s not a particularly potent issue anymore. I really don’t think I am an outlier in this regard.
steve
only one group….
Ruckus
@JohnR:
And the sound of a pump shotgun being racked in the middle of the night should be a chilling sound to anyone trying to break into one’s house. It’s a sound unlike any thing else you might hear in a house in the middle of the night and I’d think anyone trying to get in probably knows what it is. Not that I know any of this first hand mind you.
ETA stuckinred beat me to it!
gwangung
@JohnR: Yeah, that’s why my rule of thumb is, “If, in the normal course of operations, you have a pretty decent chance of harming someone NOT your target, maybe you shouldn’t be using that kind of weapon.”
That, and alchohol and weapons don’t mix.
JohnR
@Martin:
good points, especially since I find that rewiring the claymores and setting the tiger traps every night before bed is such a pain, and there’s always the possibility that someone will forget their conditioning during the night and try to get a drink or hit the bathroom. As for pump-action excitement, I’ll admit I’ve never had to try that out; I’m not sure the guys in my present neighborhood would take the hint either, since most of the night-time gunfire is of the handgun variety now that auto-weapon use has tapered off again. You hardly ever hear a shotgun; I don’t think most of the folks around here think they’re that sexy, and I wonder if they’d recognize the pump-action chambering noise. Can’t miss the shot, though; it kind of forces you to sit up and take notice. Or drop to the ground and start whimpering (assuming you’re not 2 blocks away and moving fast).
gex
@celticdragonchick: I like to add that their mantra “God made man and woman” is contradicted by facts on the ground. Some people are born with both kinds of genitalia. This more than anything else would have to prove that God made a mistake, even given a Just World theory. So until these godless secular people started demanding that the individuals get to decide for themselves, good Christians just lopped it off.
This fact is never, ever, ever brought up in discussions of gay rights when one side blathers on about what is and isn’t natural. The very foundation of their argument is faulty and yet their argument is winning the day.
Mnemosyne
@gex:
Unfortunately, you can’t pin it solely on Christian conservatism. Nice atheists like John Money did a huge amount of damage to our understanding of intersexed and transgender people by deciding that gender was plastic and solely dependent on nurture, not nature.
gex
@licensed to kill time: Technologists can’t fix the fugly. Designers can. And even Erik son of Erick knows all those guys are gay.
gex
@Mnemosyne: I was commenting on celticdragonchick’s comment, which was in regard to Christian views towards non-heterosexual sex, thank you very much. Feel free to superimpose your Christian persecution complex on the situation when you lack context.
ETA: Obviously, I must therefore discuss how every religious tradition as well as those who reject religion have treated the topic. Otherwise, what the hell am I doing commenting on a blog? That will never pass peer review.
licensed to kill time
@gex:
You’re right, Ewicksonofewick would never hire a Queer Eye for his Straight Site. I figure the outer fugly of his site reflects the fugly within, anyway.
Redshift
@slippy: Yep, they sure were, and when that failed he complained about meanie liberal developers to beg for cash; it was reported on FDL at the time:
In that context, his new socialist missive looks rather like “everybody with actual skills should pledge in advance to work for ‘the cause’ for free so I won’t have to beg again when the time comes.”
Delicious.
Mnemosyne
@gex:
Whatevs, dude. Just pointing out that “pure science” doesn’t have a terribly good track record when it comes to transgender and intersexed issues.
Read As Nature Made Him and tell me again that the whole world would be perfect if only we didn’t have religion.
ETA: When you try to attribute the change in attitude towards intersexed people to “godless secularists,” you should probably be aware that a whole lot of godless secularists caused the problem in the first place. It was intersexed people themselves who protested at their treatment, and you’re removing them from the center of their own story.
maus
@General Egali Tarian Stuck: The “big guns” behind the NRA are simply the gun industry. The gun industry can back both, just as the GOP and Teabaggers can both be financed by big interests.
It’s not as if these interests would disappear without the middlemen.
gex
@Mnemosyne: The discussion was: Christians view God as infallable. Their argument against queers are that God made man and woman, period. Then when presented clear evidence that this is not the case, the *Christians* just lop it off.
I don’t honestly see why you felt the need to comment that non-Christians do the same thing. How is that relevant? Excuse me if I read your response as a reflexive defense of Christians. But the fact that other people do this too is not only not an argument that fails to mitigate what the Christians do, but also derails my entire point and just starts some goddamn belief vs. non-belief war.
ETA: Just remembered this line: “tell me again that the whole world would be perfect if only we didn’t have religion”. Now I know this is Christian persecution complex because you didn’t even read my comment. I nowhere said that. But I guess commenting on the illogic of Christian views on this subject hurt your feefees.
The people who allow children to chose for themselves are following a more secular tradition than the Christian tradition.
maus
@Mnemosyne: The comment was
which is true. “Secular” doctors may still be wrapped up in gender binaries based on “traditional” views, whether they ascribe God to their biases or not.
Norman Rogers
@eemom: Yes, and the lady has a unique way of bringing everyone together, does she not?
twiffer
@beltane: gotta keep the feds away from the kind bud.
Mnemosyne
@gex:
Silly me, I thought were discussing transgender and intersexed people, not religion. That’s why I brought up David Reimer and John Money. We can switch to religion if you like, but you should probably give some warning.
And I’m also willing to defend Islam, Judaism, Hinduism and even Jainism, so I’m not quite sure where the “Christian persecution complex” thing is coming from, except that you seem to be assuming that everyone who’s not willing to ascribe all of the world’s ills to religion must be a Christian because shut up, that’s why.
gex
@Mnemosyne: Silly you, you didn’t apparently read my comment that you are so offended by. I reiterate: I was commenting on celticdragonchick’s observation about Judeo-Christian views on human sexuality. I mentioned that their basic premise, God makes man and woman is obviously false, yet what they do is just lop it off and ignore it. And whereas I think that’s a problem, what with the God is infallible argument and arguing from a falsehood. Apparently you think that this is an accusation that all of humanity’s problems come from Christians. Let’s agree to disagree.
But let me say that I think you have reading comprehension problems, and that the fact that you seem so touchy about what I said about Christianity is what make me categorize your need to argue this with me as Christian persecution complex.
I have tried to explain the point I was trying to make. I keep telling you specifically that I was not trying to make the point you are trying to accuse me of, but apparently that is not good enough either.
Boxer
I consider myself a firearm enthusiast, and I cannot stand most gun rights organizations, because they all seem to assume that if I like guns, I must be very conservative. For that matter, a lot of gun enthusiasts are sick of leftwing groups assuming that we are a lost cause of single-issue voters, even though there is a growing and increasingly left-leaning group of firearm enthusiasts.
On a side note, there is a lot of awful, unscientific advice in this thread regarding shotgun penetration and the magical power of a shotgun racking to deescalate a violent situation.
maus
@Boxer:
The fictional situation-anecdote hybrid arguments remind me of conservatives who call for capital punishment as a crime reduction tool.
gex
@Mnemosyne: Do tell, via quote where I claimed, “ascribe all of the world’s ills to religion”.
If you cannot see how you superimposed this reading onto sarcastic, but relatively harmless words, oh well. Funny thing too, all my nasty words that you are so offended by, were the words Christians use to describe non-believers.
I also said you were acting out of Christian persecution complex, not that you were a Christian. Because, as I have explained, I did not say Christianity or religion were the cause of all our problems. The fact that you are so goddamn defensive in response to a minor critique of Christian theology might indicate you are a Christian, but I made no assumption. Can we PLEASE just stick to the words that have been typed and not the ones you are adding in your head?
I don’t know what you mean “we” were talking. I commented to someone else, then you just started railing on me. “We” weren’t talking about anything. Jesus Christ, what the fuck man? Why the fuck didn’t you jump on celticdragonchick when he ascribed his problems to Judeo-Christian belief, but go ballistic against me?
Uncle. As a gay person, I can think of no better world view for me than a Christian or a religious world view. Better? I renounce any criticism I have of Christianity for their treatment of gays, because apparently it is not at all their fault how they treat them because OTHER PEOPLE DO IT TOO.
All better?
Mnemosyne
@gex:
Actually, I tried to direct you to a fascinating story of science gone wrong and an absolutely devastating book that made a huge impression on me about the dangers of taking any “expert’s” opinion at face value since it resulted in both twins committing suicide as adults. That’s why I provided links.
As I said, your comments struck me as giving much too much credit to “secular thinking” and devalued the huge struggles that intersexed people have gone through (and are still going through) to fight against having unnecessary surgery performed on infants. Religion, frankly, was the least important part of what I was trying to talk about.
HyperIon
@Norman Rogers: Has anyone ever driven past their headquarters in Northern Virginia?
No, but I used to live 2 blocks from their headquarters at Scott Circle in DC. That was a nice address and a nice building.
Gex
Let’s just say attitudes towards these things started changing when the APA decided these weren’t illnesses. Christians had to form their own professional psychiatry organization as a result. I don’t believe atheists had that same reaction. But whatever. I’M obviously a bigot because I stated facts about Christian theology, the obvious contradiction between two of their core beliefs, and that they ignore the fact that “nature” clearly contradicts that fact. Atheists don’t have the God doesn’t make mistakes hurdle to get over. But obviously human beings all have the same human failings, and apparently I need to state that as a caveat before I make my point. As is typical, my minority view must first grovel and say “but of course not ALL Christians do” whatever hideous thing Christians tend to do. If you honestly do not think that secularism both politically in the west and in science aren’t part of the improvement in queer lives, that’s your opinion. I would have to disagree. Yes, both approaches can get it wrong. But one is more wrong than the other.
Frankly, I am a science nerd too. I know that extremism in anything is bad. I guess I have to discuss my entire world view in depth before I can comment on Christian theology.
You know how I know you are full of shit though? You keep accusing me of blaming religion on all the world’s problems. I never said that, you know I didn’t say that, and now you keep on arguing to make yourself look reasonable having started this based on a really wild accusation. You haven’t walked that back at all.
What YOU were talking about isn’t all that important to me because they were arguments in the “religion is the source of all our problems” argument, which only you are participating in. Apparently I am unclear.
Gex
Also please note how you started with me accusing religion for all the world’s problems, and now you are at me giving secularism too much credit. Excellent way to engage me and have me take an interest in the readings you volunteer to me uninvited.
Wildweasels
If APA needs religion to justify its existence then why does it exist. Please explain your point. Religion is for the insane godbots to justify their existence. Why should I justify mine?? The APA should not need religion to justify whatever.
Hob
@Gex: Unless you just really enjoy flamewars, could you maybe dial it down a notch? Mnemosyne’s original comment was not an attack on you at all. Right away you replied with a pretty snide assumption about Mnemosyne’s “Christian persecution complex.” The rest followed from there. It’s not really that entertaining to watch you two pissing at other for making two different non-contradictory points.
Steeplejack
@casey:
I have wondered the same. It doesn’t take rocket-science-level skills to put together a decent Web site, and many of the techno-weenies I know are libertarian dickheads, of not outright Repub assholes. So why does E.E. have to call for some sort of open-source
jihadcrusade to get things done?Steeplejack
@asr:
Have you ever heard of the concept of “projection”?
gex
@Hob: Whatever. I’m over the top. He accuses me of blaming religion for all the worlds problems because I commented on Christianity and their own stated beliefs and actions, in response to a comment on Judeo-Christian values related to human sexuality.
I know I keep saying that over and over. But I am honestly unable to understand how that comment led to the charge leveled at me. But of course, I can’t get him to admit that I never said what he accused me of. No comment on the point that I am actually trying to make. So yes, it seems to me like he feels I am persecuting Christianity when I feel that I said no such thing. To him, I’m not merely commenting on Christian theology, I am blaming it for all the bad things that have ever happened. That’s logical. That’s not over the top at all.
You should really try for an MSM job. I’m pretty sure you’ve got the chops for splitting the difference between the Blue Dogs and the John Birch Society. Why, you don’t even care that one side started with a wild and baseless accusation that is clearly untrue. And now we’ve moved on to my tone. I’m sure it gives polite company the vapors.
tkogrumpy
@stuckinred: Whoa I want me one of those. Seriously tho I’m a light sleeper, and keep a cut down breech load double barreled shotgun in my bedroom,shells separate but handy.When I get spooked by some noise downstairs, i will grab the gun and chamber two shells, walk to the head of the stairs and close the breech. There is no way you can mistake that sound for anything else on earth. My hope is that hearing that sound will be enough to make an intruder disappear.
Boxer
@tkogrumpy:
Sarcasm is difficult online, so I really hope this isn’t a serious post.
maus
@asr:
Are you on meds? Seriously, I have no clue who that post was to, but you seem to be having an argument with yourself that has nothing to do with the topic at hand, and anything we’ve said or believe.