Via memeorandum, this WSJ piece puts together the most compelling argument for the sacking of the General.
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Come for the politics, stay for the snark.
When you’re in more danger from the IDF than from Russian shelling, that’s really bad.
We’re watching the self-immolation of the leading world power on a level unprecedented in human history.
Not rolling over. fuck you, make me.
Fight them, without becoming them!
GOP baffled that ‘we don’t care if you die’ is not a winning slogan.
The “burn-it-down” people are good with that until they become part of the kindling.
Republicans: “Abortion is murder but you can take a bus to get one.” Easy peasy.
We will not go back.
Following reporting rules is only for the little people, apparently.
Imperialist aggressors must be defeated, or the whole world loses.
If you’re gonna whine, it’s time to resign!
In my day, never was longer.
Come for the politics, stay for the snark.
Thanks to your bullshit, we are now under siege.
The low info voters probably won’t even notice or remember by their next lap around the goldfish bowl.
When they say they are pro-life, they do not mean yours.
Republicans want to make it harder to vote and easier for them to cheat.
Jack Smith: “Why did you start campaigning in the middle of my investigation?!”
Republicans are the party of chaos and catastrophe.
She burned that motherfucker down, and I am so here for it. Thank you, Caroline Kennedy.
If a good thing happens for a bad reason, it’s still a good thing.
You come for women, you’re gonna get your ass kicked.
There are a lot more evil idiots than evil geniuses.
the 10% who apparently lack object permanence
stuckinred
It’s worth taking a peek at Pat Lang’s thoughts on this cluster fuck.
El Cid
Fired or not, I would like — but have no hope on this whatsoever — that this would be an opportunity to abandon this “new counterinsurgency” / SURGE II! bullshit in Afghanistan ASAP, given that McChrystal & his crew seemed to be among the prime hallucinogen pushers on this matter.
Excuse me — what I mean to say is that the situation is fragile, and we don’t want to abandon the process of consolidation we’ve been achieving and that this government we’ve installed over there is really on the edge of taking over but they just need a little more help, etc., etc.
El Cid
From that WSJ piece:
Right. What happens in 3rd world insurgencies is that the big superpower makes the enemy strong by ’emboldening’ them, whereas if Obama had yelled that we would be in Afghanistan for-fucking-ever until every last wedding party had been blown to shit, somehow this would have sapped the nerve of those delicate Talibanistas. They would have begun to fade away like the Viet Cong did after the South Vietnamese client state got all strong since we kept promising to be there as long as it took.
“Demoralized” the ‘side’ which already laughs at the absolutely absurd joke of the Karzai government? The one in which we’re trading with and paying insurgents indirectly not to attack us and our transports, just like happened in Iraq, after the victorious campaign of ethnic slaughter that we then retroactively declared the success of the SUUUUUURGE?
We have such serious foreign policy analysis in our establishmentarian media. It’s really admirable.
John PM
John, I have to disagree about the value of the article. It essentially places the blame on Obama for creating an unworkable solution (i.e., pointing out three mistakes that Obama.has made). Reading between the lines, the author seems to be saying that McChrystal and his staff have legitimate complaints and their only mistake was airing them in public.
debbie
Unbelievable. McChrystal has to go, but it’s all Obama’s fault.
Mary G
The general and his staff seem more like a junior high school clique (“That’s so gay”) than a group of professu9inal military men. That they said all this stuff in front of a reporter for Rolling Stone with a tape recorder or notebook in his hand is mind-bogglingly stupid.
He should be fired and retired, to write books and make millions for speeches to adoring wingnuts,.
Then we should declare victory and get the hell out of there.
debbie
@John PM
Agree. Apparently insubordination doesn’t count for much in the military anymore.
Taylor
Here’s my theory:
McCrystal wants out.
He doesn’t want to own the clusterfuck that is now Afghanistan. He has political ambition. Better to get out and let the Obama administration carry the can for his failures.
He allowed his officers to make the statements they made. He vetted the Rolling Stone piece before it was published. He’s telling people now that he’s “compromised the mission.”
Obama is in a no-win situation. I’d say firing McCrystal, then declaring victory and pulling out of Afghanistan, is about the only political option he has left. Otherwise, he’d better practice saying, If nominated, I will not run….
Svensker
@El Cid:
Thanks, El Cid. I was trying to formulate what most pissed me off about that piece but it’s hot and humid here and the brain is sulking. Also, my teeth got set on edge when the first line was about what a “hero” McC is. I’m sick of hearing about military “heroes” and “warriors” all the time: we really have become a 60s South American tinpot country with this childish military worship.
El Cid
@Mary G: You realize that by suggesting we someday leave, you have just emboldened and empowered The Enemy. You should be ashamed of yourself, Fifth Columnist.
matoko_chan
No Cole, he should be retained. i think O will refuse to accept his resignation.
If there is going to be a pharmekos, it should be McC.
Look at the timing. Gates et al pushed McC on Obama as the guy that could do the job. McC leveraged his troop request to do the job with a leak.
One year until the drawdown, starts July 2011.
Now the news is bad out of the Graveyard of Empires…and consider McC gets the raw unfiltered data feed, which is much worse….the head brit just walked….…the job is not going well. McC likely honestly believes that he could do the job if it wasn’t for those backstabbing pragmatists and realists like Eikenberry and Biden.
So he shoots his mouth off to Rolling Stone. He’s holding up Obama again, like he did over troop strength. He wants an extension or mitigating circumstances.
The problem is…..there is no “winning” in the Graveyard of Empires.
Do the math.
For every legit baddie or al-Q #3 that gets whacked in a drone strike, his trusted network sows a score of dragonsteeth. For every innocent that gets whacked ten score or more. The biological basis of kinship revenge ensures this. So there is a countably infinte supply of dragonsteeth (its exponential), and a very limited supply of american troops…because the cut-off is July 2011.McC can build all the schools he wants, it counts for nothing against the neuro-hormonal cascade for revenge.
Its human nature.
Cat Lady
@debbie:
Everything is always Obama’s fault, no matter what happens anywhere in the world, but he’s weak. Also.
Paris
From Pat Lang’s post: They are not and should not be free to use the press against the civilian government.
This is why McChrystal should have been relieved last fall. I read the RS piece last night and wasn’t overly offended by the statements it contained. It seems like normal tensions that arise from type A personalities which all the people involved have to have in order to get to where they are. The story claims that McChrystal is uncomfortable in the lime light but then he welcomes a reporter to follow him around for a month. He is intentionally trying to pressure his superiors in order to get what he wants.
That said, Afghanistan is a lost cause as long as Pakistan supports and harbors the Taliban and they show no sign of changing.
stuckinred
@Svensker: really
John Cole
@debbie: I didn’t say it was the most compelling argument Obama is to blame, I said it was the most compelling argument McChrystal has to go. As to the points, I think two of them are bullshit, but I do tend to agree with the open feuding between staffs. Obama needs to nip that shit in the bud.
El Cid
@Svensker:
Not really. You don’t have to change geography, just time frame. The establishment has been working hard for generations erasing the sense of realism that grew out of so many Americans’ sensible rejection of authority- and military-worship as the Vietnam ‘quagmire’ (i.e., ‘we’ got drawn helplessly into slaughtering several million Indochinese civilians) drew on. Thankfully our discourse is more back to that preferred 1950s mode.
That’s the exact reason for Bush Sr’s triumphant declaration that we had beaten the ‘Vietnam Syndrome’ via Gulf War 1, ’cause he and other bloodthirstocons had been real angry at being limited to mainly hiring genocidalists and death squadders throughout the late 1970s and 1980s. (Well, it was kind of fun to have the U.S. Navy shell civilian Lebanon during Israel’s invasion and shoot an Iranian civilian airliner down — Ha ha, let’s give out medals for that!).
By the time Bush Jr. & Cheney began the propaganda flood for Iraq War II: The Erectioning, plenty of people could imagine that with our new techno-awesomeness, this should go fairly quickly and not be so bad, etc., etc., and doubters could be dismissed at best as Debbie Downers lacking sufficient faith in Our New Warfighting Abilities.
Punchy
McChrystal promises ponies in another Friedman Unit, Obama bites, and all respect for Obama in the military is gone. I sense this will end very very badly.
Linda Featheringill
@matoko_chan:
“For every legit baddie or al-Q #3 that gets whacked in a drone strike, his trusted network sows a score of dragonsteeth.”
Exactly.
[Do hawks and neo-cons know about the dragon’s teeth? They don’t act like it.]
Whether McC was trying to engineer a Way Out or not, he has gotta go.
And yes, we should declare victory and go home.
matoko_chan
@El Cid: i think COIN doesn’t work.
not in Iraq, not in Afghanistan.
The Sons of Iraq weren’t converted…..they were pulling paychecks from the US. Now the paychecks are gone, and COIN is FAIL.
Iraq is now a representative islamic state with shariah in the constitution and religious political parties, that btw declared a national holiday when american troops left Iraqi cities….
This is a judgement on CNAS and COIN and the military knows it. we have to “win” in the Graveyard of Empires BEFORE the Iraq situ gets any more obvious…while they can still pretend the Surge Worked and the Anbar “Awakening” worked.
El Cid
@matoko_chan: There’s never a ‘judgment’ rendered on COIN or low-intensity-conflict or any of it. There’s only a temporary unpopularity. If the current COIN fantasy ends up dribbling out, no problem, wait a few more years while the hawk-pushers in the punditariat and the foreign policy establishment gear up, and soon there will be a new round of jacking off to Our New and Improved COIN / whatever Techniques.
shortstop
It just wears me out even to think about the right-wing martyr worship we’ll have to listen to now. What an asshole this guy is.
baldheadeddork
I’m not military, so forgive me if I’m totally on the wrong track, but isn’t firing McChrystal the easy way out for everyone? What he did was a violation of the UCMJ, and he should be charged with criminal insubordination.
If the military values its role as subordinate to the civilian leadership, they should advise Obama to relieve him of his command and Mullen should announce that McChrystal is going to be court martialed.
Part of my thinking in this is that McChrystal is just a symptom of a much larger problem in the military. From the oath keepers to the idiots who do not recognize Obama as a legitimate president, the military has mostly turned a blind eye to the conservative movement to present every Democratic president as an illegitimate Commander in Chief. McChrystal is just the highest ranking dumbass to say it so publicly.
If the military really values its role as subordinate to the civilian leadership, then they need to step up and show it. Enforcing their laws of insubordination as swiftly as they purge gays isn’t a bad idea, either. Making an example of McChrystal would be an excellent place to start.
matoko_chan
@Linda Featheringill:
he wont go, is my prediction.
That means downtime while they bring someone else in, and they simply can’t afford that.
CNAS and COIN have to work/appear to work in Afghanistan before Iraq brutally demonstrates how fail the McC light-footprint strat is.
Hunter Gathers
McChrystal stays. Afghanistan now becomes ‘Good Soldier Stanley’s War’. The loud mouthed asshole doesn’t get to quit before his COIN strategy fails. He owns this thing now. Maybe he’ll think twice before getting shit-faced and running off at the mouth. What a douche-nozzle.
Napoleon
From what I have read it appears the unnamed people quoted in the RS article are in fact his close aides, and from the PBS newshour last night those aides have been with him forever. I am beginning to wonder if the thing to do is fire every single one of his long time aides and send him back to Af. with a new bunch that are not his groupies. If Af fails it is on his record. Then fire him.
That said Obama was a moron to pick him in the first place. Why anyone would trust anybody regarding anything after being involved with something like the Tillman coverup is mindboggling.
matoko_chan
@El Cid: this is true…..i wonder if we can use social network theory (one of the underpinnings of COIN) to prove COIN doesn’t work?
I think i will write an email to Dr. Kilcullen.
He can call it Dragonsteeth Theory.
;)
Randy P
@Punchy:
That’s a bit of an exaggeration. First of all, I think by and large the enlisted personnel love him. Second, even the officers aren’t monolithic. However, I’ve heard hints for years of a deeply embedded Christianist and ultra-right-wing officer core. The Military Religious Freedom Foundation exists because military personnel, including members of mainstream Christian churches, do not feel they have religious freedom. They find themselves coerced into evangelical services pushed by their commanding officers, and fear the effects on their career if they choose to attend the Methodist service (for example) instead.
We’ve heard how Rush gets played multiple times a day on Armed Services Radio but Daily Kos is blocked from web access.
We’ve heard commanders in Iraq talk about how they’re on a Crusade, and “our God is stronger than their God”.
This is not the whole military, but it is a significant part of the top levels and it is poisoning the whole structure. It needs to be purged.
Mary G
@El Cid: Curses! You found me out. My real name is Fatima and I’m an Al-Queda plant.
Shalimar
The United States will be a military dictatorship in 40 years. Who knows how fast we will get there, but not firing McChrystal speeds up the decline.
toujoursdan
Didn’t we go through this six months ago with the same General? Didn’t this same general go to the press and criticize the President for troop levels? Wasn’t it called insubordination then?
Ivan Ivanovich Renko
@Shalimar: Only if the crazies win the civil war that would have to precede it. Officers and enlisted swear fealty to the Constitution of the United States. Any dictatorship would have to overcome that oath and that loyalty… and I believe (hope, pray) that it couldn’t.
Inshallah.
salacious crumb
Eliot Cohen was one of the biggest cheerleaders for was with Iraq and now, Iran. Plus a big flaming supporter of Israel and someone who is ok with genocide of Palestinians to protect Israel. he has been on the record saying that. so right now he comes across as a concern troll to me, at best.
That said, I find much of his assessment BS. oh yeah, Karl Eikenberry is going to throw his professionalism out of the door because he feels inferior to McChrystal? thats the best analysis that retard Cohen could come up with? I mean, seriously? when you out great minds together, there will be inevitable clash of personalities. I like John said, Obama has to put a stop to this infighting. But thats it.
It all comes down to what McChrystal wants. Methinks he doesnt want this job anymore and so he didnt disavow anything he said. Plus he thinks we are losing. So thats tells me he is openly signalling to Obama he wants out. I bet Obama will give McChrystal a second chance, assuming McChrystal still wants this job. McChrystal wants out, and someone else will take his place.
cleek
@Shalimar:
but i thought we were going to be under sharia law… or in a commie paradise… or ruled by WalMart and Exxon… or speaking Mandarin… or fleeing from the rising oil-soaked oceans… or creeping around in a nuclear winter, running from cannibals and scrounging for canned food…
which nightmare should i prepare for??!!
shortstop
Hell, they actively participate in it.
Emma
Hunter Gathers: This.
I think the dialogue will go like this: General, you told me you could do this in a year. I trusted you. Now you’re trying to get out of your own clusterfuck and leave me holding the pup. Resignation not accepted. You’re it. This is your war and you’ll carry on until I see fit to relieve you. The alternative is being busted down to private for insubordination. And, by the way, if you give even a “no comment” without permission, it will be a dishonorable discharge.
Elie
@stuckinred:
I agree with this completely and do believe that this was intentional and possibly supported by a widespread contingency in the senior military leadership. I think that the whole hive is suspect and I am not feeling good about the “leadership” of either Petraeus or Mullen. You mean neither had any idea of this guy’s attitudes — that he and his aides were running around spouting off this stuff with impunity to a periodical, and that this wasnt part of their everyday, normal viewpoint? Nah, don’t believe this. I see it as kind of a fledgeling coup and not only should this asshole be removed but a quiet assessment/investigation done on the senior leadership of this great country. This stinks to high heaven and is not just a little thing about “bad judgement”. “This is WE are going to tell YOU what to do, you stupid civilians”. This must be crushed and crushed hard — political consequences be damned.
Elie
@Shalimar:
.
I am not willing to cede that at all. It may take a bench clearing brawl, but I think that there needs to be a major cleansing of the senior military leadership. Daunting? Yes, of course but not impossible. The Rolling Stone article is a start in bringing out this whole discussion to air before the American people. To me, it is more important than this President’s administration’s success or much else. This cannot be placated or fudged but openly discussed and attacked in all open venues for discussion. I do think that your fear should be the starting question: “Is the US becoming a military dictatorship?”
someguy
The customary punishment for mutiny is a firing squad.
The fact that the WSJ is calling for McChrystal’s firing, however, makes me wonder if a promotion isn’t in order.
divF
My solution: demote him as punishment (take one of his stars away), then send him back to finish the job he started, or (more likely) to own its failure.
eemom
am I the only one in the world who doesn’t give a flying fucklet about this McCwhatsit mess?
As always I am inclined to look on the bright side. All sensory input today will be about a topic that does not cause me to bang my head on the keyboard.
Maude
@eemom:
Day’s young. Tell me this at around 5 p.m.
El Cid
@Mary G:
Despite your public unveiling, I heard through my sources that the organization still appreciates you and is considering promoting you to Al Qa’ida #3.
El Cid
@matoko_chan: I was listening to an interview with Kilcullen yesterday. One of the points he made which seemed to just vanish into the air was that all of this counter-insurgency ‘strategy’ depended on the legitimacy and capability of the local government.
Hee hee. Have fun applying that one to any of these situations.
Elie
@eemom:
I guess for right now I am landing on the opposite side of the opinion on this… I see a direct assault on civilian led government and this administration in particular. I think that it has political consequences and links that cannot be ignored. The unprecedented verbal disrespect, while not always substantive, lends permission to others to continue to disrespect not only this administration but civilian selected and directed government policy. To the public, we should NEVER see any general’s true opinion on policy until after retirement and even then maybe not. Not have his staff demean civilian leadership with banal, lowly comments just makes it worse — almost like the substance of the disagreement isnt as important as just disrespecting the civilian leadership — extremely disquieting. This to me feels like the military is supporting a tea part movement. We cannot passively allow this to persist IMHO.
Tsulagi
Would be fairly surprised if Obama doesn’t accept McChrystal’s resignation. Likely Gates was talking to the general while he was in the air. Can just see McChrystal after one ass-kicking call turning to staff flying with him to ask “Any of you geniuses have any more edgy interviews scheduled for us? Because this RS one has worked out so fucking well.”
Corner Stone
@El Cid:
And to add the obvious to your point – this is the main and really only reason body bags aren’t shown and no one but family knows about the funerals.
28 NATO died in one week this month. This month!
Yeah, tell me how well this is all going in The Good War ™.
Corner Stone
@El Cid:
Keep her talking EC. The drones are closing in on her wedding party now.
Elie
@Tsulagi:
The general knew exactly what he was doing. This was planned and executed with a larger purpose in mind and was specifically intended to be absolutely disruptive and de-stabilizing of this administration’s military policy and perhaps more broadly. Its the deliberate nature of this that has me the most upset — not just some pop off in an unplanned spontaneous on the fly question and answer situation. This was a planned strategy. The general is not stupid and not to my knowledge, a mentally ill megalomaniac. This is the military equivalent to a tea party demonstration and cannot be tolerated.
Elie
@Corner Stone:
I think that the Rolling Stone may have also made a calculation that this article combined with the poor military and political outcomes in Afghanistan will get us out of there a lot faster. The goal for McChrystal was probably to make sure he dishes on the way out and also to give a shot to the civilian leadership and this administration in particular.
Randy P
@Elie: So I guess if this is 10-dimensional chess on McChrystal’s part we hope that Obama really does play 11-dimensionally and knows how to outmaneuver this kind of crap.
debbie
@John:
I heard someone on NPR this morning put the blame on Obama even for the sniping and feuding. He’s going to be the loser regardless.
debbie
@John:
Just realized that you mistook my original comment. I didn’t think that was what you were saying; obviously, early morning sarcasm is beyond me. Sorry.
K.
@John PM: How dare an article suggest that Obama made any mistakes!
Tsulagi
@Elie:
Not as much fun to think about, but sometimes a fuckup is just a fuckup and not part of some grand 11D chess game.
Elie
@Randy P:
The problem is he has a lot of sub games going. For sure he and our current system is being tested to the max. All I can do is hope he has the stones for the fight — and the real behind the scenes power within the military, to quell this or root out the cancer — which to my mind is evident on its face. I just cannot accept in that tight world of 4 star generals that Mullen, Petreus and others and their staff did not know the nature of this guy’s desires and plans… esp since Mullen got his ass handed to him by Obama the LAST time this guy erupted. Seems to me he (or his staff) would be on him tight.
McChrystal was Petraeus’ hand picked choice for this role. If Mullen and Petraeus did not know, both should be fired (or changed out). This does not happen in an organization with as tight a leadership and hierarchical internal power structure as does the military.
An interesting aside, does anyone remember Petraeus fainting last week during a hearing before one of the congressional committees? They attributed it to being over tired. Yeah. I bet. Havent heard a peep from him but he HAD to know this shit was going to be coming out soon.
Elie
@Tsulagi:
I hope that you are right, and I am not usually a black helicopter conspiracy freak, but being overly unsuspicious about it may also be a mistake… This just does not fit under an impulsive, unplanned act – a mistake in judgement. The interview and access was planned and took place over too long a period. You have to assume that if he was just angry, he would have had enough time to cool off and have calmer second thoughts. The man is too smart and controlled to just say this is a minor, individual issue.
matoko_chan
@El Cid: i emailed this to Dr. Kilcullen.
The Dragon’s Teeth Axiom
I am postulating an axiom of social network theory…..the Dragon’s Teeth Axiom. My hypothesis is that Afghanistan is “unwinnable” under the current adminstration strategy. For every legitimate baddie or al-Qaeda #3 eliminated by drones or American troop action, his trusted network and kinship networks sow a score of dragon’s teeth. If the eliminated civilian is an innocent, then ten score of dragon’s teeth will be sown. If the innocent civilian is a woman or a child, then twenty score dragon’s teeth will be sown. Thus there is an exponentially increasing set of dragon’s teeth, opposed by a limited and attrited set of american soldiers, set to begin drawdown in July 2011. There is potential infinite replacement for the dragon’s teeth over time.
For american soljahs, not so much.
matoko_chan
@Tsulagi: umm….McC sees his strategy failing. So he is attempting a hold up on Obama to change the drawdown plan, set to start in July 2011.
He wants an extension or mitigating circumstances.
this is is no different than leaking his troop requirements to force Obamas hand.
Same old, same old.
matoko_chan
@Tsulagi: i think Obama will not accept his resignation.
Elie
@matoko_chan:
All Obama’s choices are bad.
Hew puts a man in charge who clearly does not respect the leadership to direct the lives of American soldiers and if demoted or punished, he is also then resentful and likely to further sabotage support for the administration.
If he is not demoted or punished, but retained without punishment, he is an in the flesh embodiement of non support for civilian directed policy and this administration’s policy in particular.
While it sounds cunning politically, in practicality, it is untenable. He must be removed from duty. The only delay would be to have his successor already ready to be announced as this guy walks out..
There is of course the political outfall of this as well. Horrible for Obama with those already shaky on his leadership about this war and other things. He just has to keep on keeping on and move on. He cannot abide having this. I have no idea whether he has the power to get behind the scenes of what is happening in the military that McC has gotten away with this… I think that there has been an ongoing culture of increasing resistance to Democrats and to civilian direction of the military building for a while. It is a dangerous period for Obama’s administration but I do not see how he can retain this guy.
gypsy howell
From the article:
Did I sleep through VI Day, when cheering throngs in Times Square celebrated our victory in Iraq, as all the returning soldiers paraded by?
Not to mention “dismantling the leadership of Al Qaeda there,” which I guess was actually pretty easy considering Al Qaeda wasn’t there to begin with.
What an asswipe.
Yes, Obama should fire his snotty insubordinate macho little ass, along with his whole cadre of minions. Courtmartial ’em and throw ’em all in the brig (Guantanamo would be perfect). But the clusterfuck of Afghanistan will continue on regardless, so really, who cares.
AngusTheGodOfMeat
Well, McChrystal is gone.
Next topic please.
Reported, and confirmed, and will be replaced by Petraeus.
Glad to hear it, good move to fire him. Obama really had no choice.
SIA
McChrystal is out, Petraeus is in. This will shut up critics on the right but hopefully all we’re doing is buying some time, we we can turn it around a bit, declare “We Win!” and get out of there by July 2011. Graveyard of Empires indeed.
matoko_chan
@Elie: i called it.
Rabi’a is my alt at Abu Muqawama’s.
So did Ricks.
Do you think Obama reads blogs?
Corner Stone
@matoko_chan: What are you talking about? All over BJ you’ve been saying how Obama should make McC go back to Afghanistan and “own” it. And even right here in this thread at 59, you said:
So now you post something from some other site where you’ve been saying something completely different and then point to it and say you “called it”?
Sheesh.