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You are here: Home / Sports / Portugal v Spain Open Thread

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156Comments

  8. 8.

    EdTheRed

    Portugam will score higher on degree of difficulty, but Spain will execute their dives with greater technical precision.

    Also, Spain will score more goals than Portugam.

  10. 10.

    MattR

    The fact that soccer does not have a hockey style replay system already is unfathomable. If the play is ruled a goal, there is a natural break where you can have a replay official review it (and limit the time allowed to 3 minutes, or whatever). If the play is ruled not a goal, play continues while the replay official has the same 3 minutes to decide it was a goal. If he reverses it, play is immediately stopped (a change from hockey) and the clock reverts back to the time of the goal (or is it now goam?)

  15. 15.

    Violet

    Obligatory girly comment: Ronaldo is hot.

    Back to football. I hope Portugam wins, I think. But I’m okay if Spaio wins, also, too.

  18. 18.

    Violet

    Portugal will lose because they are wearing white. The ones wearing white have not done very well during this World Cup.

  21. 21.

    Mark S.

    @MattR:

    I agree. I wouldn’t want replay for every damn offsides call, but goals are a rare enough occurrence to use replay on.

    @wengler:

    Especially since he plays for Ream Madrid.

  23. 23.

    Martin

    I wonder how many european players instinctively dive to the floor and cover their face when their wife walks over to give them a hug?

  24. 24.

    Bootlegger

    @EdTheRed: Where are the judges from?

    I think Portugal will give the better individual acting performances, but Spain will win the award for best overall acting.

    Who will win in the coveted “I’ve been slashed across my face with a machete” award?

  27. 27.

    Violet

    Question: Why do people not like Ronaldo? Is it because of how he plays, or his personality, or what? I don’t know anything about him, except as a non-fan he’s one of the few players I’ve actually heard of. Oh, and he’s good looking.

  29. 29.

    Leeds man

    @Violet:

    He’s Portuguese. No matter how good he is, the underhanded aspects of the game are in his blood. Diving, whining to the ref, etc. And while in England, he shared the Diva of the Premiership title with Drogba.

  32. 32.

    Martin

    @Violet: He’s a diver. A very egregious diver at that. There are some YouTube clips of him diving where he wasn’t even touched at all.

  33. 33.

    That's Master of Accountancy to You, Pal (JMN)

    @Violet: Of course he’s good looking. All acting stars are good looking.

  34. 34.

    Bootlegger

    @MattR: No doubt, and Sepp Blatter’s blather about replay stopping the game “every three minutes” is inane.
    @Mark S.: Instant replay for goals and they need to get endline judges ASAP. Offsides, as much as it sucks, is a judgment call and should not be a replay offense. Besides, the camera is rarely right down the line.

    I’ve found the critique of soccer’s officiating interesting, particularly comparing it to supposedly more “objective” American sports. Does anyone really think an offside call in world football is any less objective than balls and strikes in baseball? That holding on a set piece is any less objective than pass interference or holding in throwball? Or how there is a foul on damn near every NBA play? And don’t get me started on traveling and carrying. If American sports were any more “objective” they’d be judged by figure skating officials.

  37. 37.

    Violet

    @Leeds man:
    Ah, okay. Thanks. As a casual viewer, the diva-like behaviour and the diving are kind of amusing to me. But I can imagine that that sort of thing gets really annoying for fans.

    This is a good match. Both teams really seem to want to win and are playing aggressively.

  38. 38.

    valdivia

    @Mark S.:

    Actually it was paraguay that started the war and kept fighting beyond its own capabilities. Their Dear Leader Lopez kept sending people to fight even when he had lost 70% of the male population. Obviously it won’t really be a repeat since it is simply that you have the same group of countries which is kinda cool. Still, I hope if this is the group that Paraguay fares better than they did back then ;)

  39. 39.

    Bill E Pilgrim

    @Mark S.: Well, what do you want me to do about it? ;)

    (Real/Ream, add one letter…. meh, never mind. A little outside even for me perhaps. Your Real/Ream made me laugh, was the point.)

  42. 42.

    Bootlegger

    @valdivia: That’s damned fascinating, I’d never heard of it before. But that would certainly be a cool Final Four (though I have money on the Dutch).

  47. 47.

    Violet

    I’m only just getting caught up on this morning’s match. Did they go into extra time and then a shootout? I’m sorry I missed that. Those are nailbiters. I get nervous even when I don’t care who wins.

  48. 48.

    Paul in KY

    @Bootlegger: I think the difference is that in soccer goals are so much less frequent than TDs, baskets, runs, etc. thus, terrible mistakes (like in England/Germany) are much more damaging to the potential outcome of the match. Also.

  49. 49.

    Randinho

    @MattR: That would make me a pedant.

    Seriously, I would imagine it would require me to repost the thread, thus disposing of everyone’s comments..

    I scheduled this post at just about midnight last night. Blame it on my fatigue and thoughts of a fine Spanish jamon (ham) sandwich when they win, as opposed to Portuguese presunto.

  50. 50.

    valdivia

    @Bootlegger:
    @Bootlegger:

    it is actually one of my ‘favorite’ historical facts that very few people but my students actually know about. Lopez is/was the true example of a Latin Caudillo, but no one really knows him. I do hope they don’t end up with 90% of their population gone after the semis ;) Personally I am still hoping Uruguay goes far…

  51. 51.

    Bootlegger

    Nice goalkeeping by Casillas after a brilliant strike by Ronald (I’m dropping the “o” until he earns it).

    One of the ironies about Ronald’s diving and acting habits is that he’s actually a very large and powerful player. If he doesn’t want to go down he’s very hard to knock off the ball. Most world-class divers are the exact opposite.

  53. 53.

    Violet

    @Randinho:
    Thanks again for these threads. They’re fun and for me, since this is the first time I’ve really watched a lot of World Cup matches, they’re educational too.

  54. 54.

    Bootlegger

    @Violet: Yes, they played the abomination known as the “penalty shootout”. There is absolutely no reason they can’t allow unlimited substitutions after full time and play until there is a winner.

  55. 55.

    Origuy

    A sportscaster on the radio this morning suggested video review of fouls, after the game, to look for diving. Offenders would be suspended and fined.

    ¡Vaya España! & ¡Viva Barça!

  59. 59.

    Bootlegger

    @Violet: Yes. They have one set up at the main Berea College store. It is pretty cool but takes awhile to set up each round. My kids got bored with it real fast and they’re not even spoiled by video games.

  62. 62.

    Bootlegger

    @Violet: +1.

    The boards at places like Big Soccer are just brutal. No one has any manners and *everybody* thinks they know more than you. Definitely not for a casual fan and as a lifelong fan who’s been to two World Cups and watched every one since Spain 1982 I find it extremely boorish.

    Much nicer here with Juicers.

  64. 64.

    Violet

    @Bootlegger:
    My friend’s idea is for each side to have to lose a player ever three or four minutes after the extra time, instead of the penalty shootout. There would be drama as fewer and fewer players were on the pitch, and strategy as each side had to decide which player would come off each time. I think that would be fairer and more fun to watch. Wouldn’t have the nailbiting ending though.

  65. 65.

    Bootlegger

    @Mark S.: Nah, someone would find a goal. My brother adds taking a man off after every 15 minute period. So you make all the subs you want every 15 minutes and both teams drop a man.

  66. 66.

    Paul in KY

    @Bootlegger: I’m in Central KY, near Lexington, Frankfort, Versailles. That area. Have never visited Berea. Need to get over there sometime.

  69. 69.

    Violet

    @Bootlegger:
    Can’t believe your kids get bored with it. All the kids in my family love it. Games get pretty crazy as the tops have a tendency to fly off the game and onto the floor, freaking out the dog and so forth. Very entertaining.

  71. 71.

    Violet

    @Bootlegger:
    Yeah! Are there more like us thinking this way? I love the tension of the penalty shootout, but from a game standpoint it just seems stupid. It all comes down to something relatively random and unrelated to a lot of what the game is about (passing skills, strategy, etc.). I guess it’s better than when teams have to draw lots to decide who gets out of the group stage. That beats everything for stupidity.

  72. 72.

    Calouste

    @Bootlegger:

    You can pretty easily have offside decisions checked by a video ref. Univision has a nice graph up on TV within 5 or 10 seconds. I don’t think you should be talking about three minutes to review stuff. If it is that close that it takes that long to do a proper review, just go with the ref’s decision. But with both the Argentina-Mexico and the England-Germany cases, it was clear from one glance at the replay that the on field officials were wrong.

  73. 73.

    Ash Can

    One of the many reasons I love this joint is that typos get brutalized in ways even the Marquis de Sade couldn’t envision.

    @valdivia: OK, I had to Google the War of the Triple Alliance, because my South American history skillz ain’t exactly mad. All I can say is, if the same thing happens to Paraguay this time around, the UN’s going to send a SWAT team to FIFA headquarters. Or to the headquarters of the Paraguayan Football Association. Or both.

  74. 74.

    cmorenc

    @Violet:

    People are both fascinated by Ronaldo’s unquestionable high skill, creativity, and athleticism as a player, and repelled because he’s so often such a drama queen, DIVA, and WATB.

  75. 75.

    Martin

    @Bootlegger: I want to see the match that lasts so long that only the goalies are on the pitch, lobbing goal kicks at each other out of fear they’ll be caught out of position.

    And don’t say it can’t happen. Nobody thought a single tennis set could last 138 games and 8 hours in length, spanning 2 days.

  77. 77.

    Leeds man

    @Violet:

    I’ve become resigned to the penalty shootout. Playing longer just wears down players who were near exhaustion at the start of the competition, and makes the next game torture. Besides, a knock-out tournament like this is pretty much a crap shoot anyway. Most teams don’t even play each other. I think of it more as a Football Festival than a “who’s the best in the world?” decider.

  78. 78.

    Violet

    @Martin:
    Well, you could always have a rule that once you get down to three players on a side, if the score is still tied, then they can do a shootout. But it would be very much a last resort after removing most of the players one by one. That would require the player removal to be even more strategic because you’d want someone who could get the ball in the net left on the pitch in the event of the shootout.

  79. 79.

    MattR

    @Violet: I have made the same “remove a guy ever 10 minutes” suggestion to my friends. It is not as dramatic, but I think it is a fairer way to determine a winner.

    @Calouste: My problem with reviewing offsides is the lack of consistency there would be on which calls get reviewed. Are we only going to review offsides if play continues and a goal is scored? What about the offisdes trap near midfield that leads to a potential breakaway that is whistled dead?

  81. 81.

    Scott de B.

    If Paraguay loses they won’t kill 90% of their male population? Now THAT would really get passions up.

    Paraguay has a much better incentive:

    Swimsuit model Dallys Ferreira has offered to “make love to each member of the Paraguay World Cup team” if they lift the trophy, adding, “The players know my pledge still stands. Women from my country are ardent, and to be honest, I’m more ardent than most. I take no notice of societal norms.”

  82. 82.

    Violet

    @Gozer:
    That’s hilarious. Dive after dive.

    @Leeds man:
    Yeah, it does seem to be a “football festival” of sorts. The players must be so tired by the end of the whole World Cup.

  83. 83.

    Paul in KY

    @Leeds man: I know in American professional football, one of the main reasons for a 1st-score-wins is that bad injuries can happen when the players are dog tired.

  85. 85.

    Violet

    @MattR:
    I’d rather see the players removed every three minutes or so. The manager would have to have a plan in place to deal with that because three minutes go by so fast. It would only take 30 minutes to get pretty much every player off the pitch, so that extra time would be exciting and very tactical.

  88. 88.

    Leeds man

    @valdivia:

    there is also the theory that it was all plotted by the English

    Well of course. England should officially change its name to Perfidious Albion. That would make football chants a bit awkward though.

  89. 89.

    Calouste

    @MattR:

    Once it’s whistled dead, there’s nothing you can do about it, so it doesn’t help to review those. Although referees are suppossed to give the attacker the benefit of the doubt, so it would be taken into a referee’s review.

    I think there could be a continous review of offside by a video ref. Image processing software should be good enough these days that it can project the line where the last defender is on screen all the time and probably even automatically warn the official when a potential offside happens.

  90. 90.

    Scott de B.

    If Paraguay loses they won’t kill 90% of their male population? Now THAT would really get passions up.

    Paraguay has a much better incentive:

    Swimsuit model Dallys Ferreira has offered to “make love to each member of the Paraguay World Cup team” if they lift the trophy, adding, “The players know my pledge still stands. Women from my country are ardent, and to be honest, I’m more ardent than most. I take no notice of societal norms.”

  91. 91.

    Randinho

    Blame it on television. In 1938 Brazil and Czechoslovakia played to a 1 to 1 tie in the quarterfinals and replayed the entire game two days later.

  92. 92.

    Martin

    @Violet: Honestly, if you can’t get the ball in the net in a shootout, you shouldn’t be playing the game professionally. The goalie is at a massive disadvantage.

  94. 94.

    Bootlegger

    @Violet: Its their patience with standing up the pieces and winding up the top. If I do it they love it, if they have to do it…

  97. 97.

    Bootlegger

    @Leeds man: That’s why you allow unlimited subs.

    And I disagree about the competitiveness. It’s a tournament of All-Star teams with players that play together infrequently, so from that standpoint you’re correct. But these guys want to win, the players’ emotions are the tell.

  99. 99.

    MattR

    @Violet: My objections to every 3 min are (a) that 3 min is not enough time to allow the players to try and finish the game and (b) it would really disrupt the flow if the game is stopped to remove a player every 3 minutes. Ideally, I would shorten extra time to two 10 minute periods (or even get rid of it completely). Then remove a player and begin 10 minute golden goal periods where they switch sides and remove a player after each period and where each team has to remove a player half way through the period (first stoppage past five minutes)

    @Calouste:

    Once it’s whistled dead, there’s nothing you can do about it, so it doesn’t help to review those.

    And this is my objection to it. It seems weird and wrong to only correct some egregious offsides mistakes depending on how where they are on the field or how quickly the ref blows his whistle. (although I do understand the argument that you correct the mistakes you can). The other problem is that offsides is a subjective call that is more likely to be disputed even with replay. Goals should be much clearer to determine. Which brings us to …

    Although referees are suppossed to give the attacker the benefit of the doubt,

    This would really be my solution. Actually enforce the rule in that manner. If an attacker is almost behind a defender facing him, but his back foot is still even with the back foot of the defender, then rule that onsides and allow play to continue.

    @Scott de B.: I am going to have to start using “ardent” like that.

  100. 100.

    Violet

    @Bootlegger:
    Yeah, I guess it’s usually the adults that wind up the spinners and we’ve always got several people hanging around, so many hands set up the pieces after they’ve been knocked down. So for younger kids, there isn’t much lag time. It makes such a racket that the kids are always drawn to it. LOL.

  103. 103.

    Punchy

    Not a single yellow here, and none in the entire WC for Spain. Just how much are those refs being paid under the table?

  105. 105.

    That's Master of Accountancy to You, Pal (JMN)

    Spain! Goooooooooooooaaaaaaaaaaaammmmmmmmmm!

  109. 109.

    MattR

    @Punchy: I am not really that surprised after watching the Spanish refs hand out cards like candy. Every tackle that would get them a card in the Spanish league is nothing more than a foul, if that, to most of the other refs.

  111. 111.

    Calouste

    @Bootlegger:

    It doesn’t have to be that accurate. If the review is in doubt, go with the ref. The main purpose is to have a second angle when the ref is unsighted. (Although how the linesman in the Argentina-Mexico incident could be unsighted is beyond me.)

  115. 115.

    Calouste

    @Scott de B.:

    “Swimsuit” seems to be a rather fanciful description of what Ms. Ferreira is wearing in most pictures that result from a quick search.

  116. 116.

    That's Master of Accountancy to You, Pal (JMN)

    @Calouste:

    The main purpose is to have a second angle when the ref is unsighted.

    I’ve come to the conclusion that all the refs are unsighted.

  118. 118.

    That's Master of Accountancy to You, Pal (JMN)

    @Calouste: Some of the ones I found involve ropes and chains, too.

    If that doesn’t create a rush for the Balloon Juice exits, I don’t know what will.

  119. 119.

    Calouste

    @Bootlegger:

    That’s what made that whole call so rubbish. There were no other players back, and the shot on goal was a rebound from the goalie, so even if the linesman was late to run back on the original shot, he should have arrived at the right position by the time of the second shot.

  120. 120.

    Violet

    @Calouste:
    No kidding. I’d never heard of her and the google search is…enlightening. This topic fits nicely into the discussion that valdivia and I were having on another football thread the other day.

  121. 121.

    You Don't Say

    I just realized there’s no more soccer until Friday. Wha, wha, what do I do until then?!

  122. 122.

    Bootlegger

    @Calouste: Oh, he blew the call, no doubt, and that one was so obvious that a replay from any angle would have overturned it. The concern for me, and others apparently, is the disruption on close plays. Maybe you could have a “goal review” where something like that which produced a goal could be called back.

  126. 126.

    Bootlegger

    @Randinho: Sure. But if there is an immediate goal, a “goal review” would fix that. Anything in the general run of play though would have to be non-reviewable.

  129. 129.

    Bootlegger

    I guess a red card is the reward for good acting.

    Looked like a sniper took him out rather than a stray elbow.

  131. 131.

    That's Master of Accountancy to You, Pal (JMN)

    @Bootlegger: From the replays, think that there was a real elbow, but there’s no way to tell from the replay angle how hard it was.

  133. 133.

    Bootlegger

    @Randinho: Just like the NFL, whistle stops play, period, non-reviewable.

    Spain v Paraguay, that should be a barn burner.

  136. 136.

    Gozer

    Despite the dive, Spain were clearly the better team. Portugam seemed disorganized.

  138. 138.

    Violet

    @Gozer:
    Agreed. Spain seemed like the stronger team. Portugam just didn’t have it.

    I don’t know that much about football, but this seemed like an aggressive match.

  140. 140.

    Randinho

    My wife just called me. She’s thrilled. Brazilians love to criticize the Portuguese. Many jokes in Brazil start “Two Portuguese were . . .”

  141. 141.

    Poopyman

    Dagnabit, Randinho! You fixed the title! Now future intertubes archeologists will have no idea what all of the comments are about.

    Change it back.

  142. 142.

    Randinho

    @Joel: From The Guardian:

    TO be fasir, the referee got it right. Before the ball came in from the left, Costa turned his head to see where Capdevila was standing, then swung his elbow back in a bid to hit him as they went to contest the high ball. Whether he made anything more than fleeting contact or not remains unclear, but the intention was certainly there and if he had made proper contact with his opposite number, he could have done him a serious injury.

  144. 144.

    Bootlegger

    @Randinho: Sure, but better to solve part of it than none of it. Moreover with a “goal review” it would make sure that a rare event is called correctly.

  147. 147.

    Cacti

    @Bootlegger:

    One of the ironies about Ronald’s diving and acting habits is that he’s actually a very large and powerful player. If he doesn’t want to go down he’s very hard to knock off the ball.

    So he’s the Karl Malone of footballers?

  148. 148.

    fbihop

    I bet that Portugal would have had a better chance if Ronaldo had stepped on the field.

    Wait, he played the whole game? Really?

  151. 151.

    JenJen

    Oh, David Villa, I would like very much to make lots and lots of sexy time with you, and bear your beautiful Spanish babies.

    Did I say that out loud?

  152. 152.

    Bill Murray

    @Randinho: continue on with play and get over it. What is so hard about that? Perfecting anything done by humans is quite difficult and unless you want to get rid of continuous play (IMO the best aspect of soccer) and turn the game into the NBA or have the assistant referees never call offside because otherwise the review won’t work, reviewing offside makes no sense.

    Plus, it’s not like the review will be perfect either. Think about Castro’s red card — at a world cup game with a huge number of TV cameras and it still is not clear whether any contact occurred.

  153. 153.

    Bill Murray

    @JenJen: no you wrote it into an internet archive. Just wait until a jealous ex leaks these to the best man at your wedding and John has to get rid of Balloon Juice

  154. 154.

    Randinho

    @Bill Murray: With regard to the offside issue, that’s precisely my point. If you have offside calls made and it pulls back a goal or otherwise stops play when it should have continued is just as bad gifting a goal when someone is offside.

  155. 155.

    Paula

    Huh. Cristiano Ronaldo’s exit may be just the thing to perk me up after the Yanks’ loss …

    This is looking nice now … Ger/Arg, plus Spain … so many other teams to cheer for other’n Brazil.

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