Just to keep the discussion going as the World Cup comes down to the last two games, I agree with every word of this article.
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Come for the politics, stay for the snark.
There are no moderate republicans – only extremists and cowards.
Let the trolls come, and then ignore them. that’s the worst thing you can do to a troll.
Fuck that bum, let’s go Joe!
The current Supreme Court is a rogue court. Very dangerous.
When your entire life is steeped in white supremacy, equality feels like discrimination.
DeSantis transforming Florida into 1930s Germany with gators and theme parks.
Nikki Haley, who can’t acknowledge ‘slavery’, is a pathetic shill.
The new republican ‘Pastor’ of the House is an odious authoritarian little creep.
if you can’t see it, then you are useless in the fight to stop it.
Quote tweet friends, screenshot enemies.
These days, even the boring Republicans are nuts.
… pundit janitors mopping up after the gop
Stop using mental illness to avoid talking about armed white supremacy.
Fuck these fucking interesting times.
It’s a doggy dog world.
There are a lot more evil idiots than evil geniuses.
…and a burning sense of injustice to juice the soul.
Good lord, these people are nuts.
White supremacy is terrorism.
Joe Biden can go out like FDR, not by dying in office, but by crushing the fascists.
Chutkan laughs. Lauro sits back down.
Republicans firmly believe having an abortion is a very personal, very private decision between a woman and J.D. Vance.
Days Since JD Vance Insulted Women Across America: Zero
The willow is too close to the house.
MattR
I quoted some of this earlier in another thread, but here are a couple if good paragraphs from an otherwise worthless piece.
TR
Great article, thanks.
Mark
Randinho –
Here’s how the teams finished in terms of controlling possession/territory where the score was tied:
1. Argentina
2. Spain
3. Brazil
4. Chile
5. Italy
6. Holland
…
17. Germany
…
26. Uruguay
The gap between Argentina and Spain is fairly large (78% to 72%), though they faced one less tough opponent. Sometimes teams get good bounces or shooters make their shots…And the best teams in the world go down. Confirmation bias made people think Germany was as good as Spain; don’t let it steer you wrong this time!
Mark
Or, to put it another way, history is written by the winners. Suarez is not a better shooter than any number of guys…But he hit a shot he misses 19 times out of 20 and so the narrative is that he’s just that good.
QDC
Randhino,
Supposing that one were interested in attempting to follow this infernal sport, how would one go about it?
I’ve got a local MLS team, so that’s easy. But there are a few questions I have. What if I want to see some Premier league games? Are there channels I should make sure I have on my cable system? When will be my next chance to see the US national team play (or the other national teams for that matter)?
I know there’s a learning curve involved in becoming a fan of a new sport, but I was thinking you might consider writing a “How to Follow
SoccerFootball” in the US post for those of us who might have been inspired by the World Cup to give it a go. It’d be a nice way to close out the tournament.Turgid Jacobian
@QDC: I got fox soccer channel they carry a lot of EPL and Serie A and some Bundesliga. Espn and espn 2 also.
Ussoccer.com–august 7th I think, USA vs brazil
CJ
@QDC:
All I can suggest is to not follow the English Premier League.
Randinho
@QDC: That’s a good idea and I might just do that. In the mean time, there is Fox Soccer Channel, Fox Soccer Plus, Gol TV and games can also be found on ESPN Deportes as well as Univision.
ESPN will, on occasion carry a la Liga or EPL game as well. FSC carries the EPL, Serie A and the Champions League as well as some Argentinean games. Gol TV carries La Liga, Brazilian league games, the Copa Italia and the Bundesliga. I believe that they also carry the Europa League.
MattR
@Randinho: If I may add a suggestion, I think it would be great if you talked about the differences (style of play, talent level, etc) between the different leagues.
Therese
What QDC said.
I’m going to start by taking my kids to an MLS game next weekend. But I’d love to know when the “big games” are coming up (is it certain times of year?), international or otherwise. And how to watch them. I’m probably not going to be able to devote a whole lot of time for viewing, but I’ll make a point to catch the big ones.
trueblood
Wait wait wait, there are two games left?
MattR
@trueblood: Third place game between Germany and Uruguay on Saturday.
Mark S.
@Therese:
Well, internationally, there’s the World Cup every four years and the Euro Cup (which is like the World Cup without Brazil and Argentina) in the even years in between (2008, 2012, etc.).
In terms of club competitions, the big one is the Champions League. This runs pretty much all year but it heats up in the spring when the knockout rounds start. The final is some time in May.
Cat Lady
Forget Xavi. Paul the Octopus is the
mancephalopod of these games.trueblood
@MattR:
Ah, yes, good old consolation. Thanks MattR.
That's Master of Accountancy to You, Pal (JMN)
That article reads a lot like what people would have written about Nick Lidstrom a decade ago. I’ve called him the most boring superstar in all of sports. Never anything flashy. No big hits. Just, at the end of the day, he has an assist and is +2, again.
burnspbesq
@Therese:
You’re in luck. In late July, big European clubs fan out across the US to suck dollars out of the wallets of American fans by playing pre-season games that nobody would show up to watch at home. If you live in a major city with a big NFL stadium, there will probably be one in your area. Example: MLS All-Stars vs. Manchester United on 7/28 at Reliant Stadium in Houston.
Therese
@Mark S.:
Thanks. Glad I won’t have to wait 4 more years. Euro Cup will be fun to watch. I think I like the country v. country aspect. As a newbie, its easier to get into those than trying to learn the backgrounds of the clubs. For example, I’ve been googling all night for recipes for a World Cup final menu. (Weeks ago I learned how to make a caipirinha…tasty, but of no use to me this weekend!) I’m making Dutch Baby pancakes for the kids in the a.m. and we’ll have sangria and mussels with chorizo for dinner. It’s a stretch and not how serious football fans celebrate, but I’ll have fun doing it!
Therese
@burnspbesq:
Good to know. Hmm…I’m in Ohio. Where can I find out more?
Bill Murray
I think I read that Howard Webb was picked to center the final. That seems to match the bizarre FIFA choices for this World Cup. As may be apparent, I am not a fan of Webb as a referee
Andy K
@That’s Master of Accountancy to You, Pal (JMN):
Funny thing about Lidstrom, though, is that he probably wouldn’t have all of those Norris Trophies had Vladdy Konstantinov not been so horribly injured after that first Stanley Cup win. Not saying that Konstantinov would have won any, but I can imagine he’d have pulled some votes away from Lidstrom.
*sigh* I miss Vlad.
tomvox1
@CJ:
???
The English Premier League is one of the top 3 soccer leagues in the world. Period. They have arguably the most exciting play, greatest parity and just look at how many World Cup stars play there. Not sure where you’re coming from with your “advice” for the novice…
@QDC:
Fox Soccer Channel is a great resource for EPL, Italian Serie A, MLS and some decent Argentinian coverage. Additionally, they cover the second tier UEFA club cup, the nationwide English FA Cup and have just wrested the rights for the Champions League broadcasts from ESPN, the ne plus ultra of club soccer competitions.
If you can get Gol TV you can also see the excellent German Bundesliga. Not sure HD is available for these channels on most providers at present unfortunately. Soon, I hope.
Bill Murray
@Therese: FSC carries many of the friendlies.
Here (http://www.epltalk.com/european-soccer-clubs-plan-summer-invasion-of-north-america/18536) is a partial list
Bootlegger
De Jong will break Xavi’s leg on Sunday.
There is good international competition within South America (Copa America) and within North America (Gold Cup) which is usually in the US and both are usually televised in the US.
An underrated tournament IMO is the World Club World Cup which is held every year in December. It features the champion’s league winner from every association plus the host nation. So far it has consistently been the South American (CONMEBOL) team versus the European team (UEFA) in the final. The south Americans won the first three, the Euros the next three. Every year, though, one of the “minnows” makes a run at the giants and eventually a team like Pachuca, or Pohang Steelers will break through. Its on the Fox Soccer Channel.
Bootlegger
@tomvox1: I’ve been surprised at how unexciting the Serie A and Argentina games are, and also by all the empty seats.
hitchhiker
my favorite things about high level soccer, in no particular order:
1. sheer athleticism displayed in every single human body on the field; you know it took a long, long grind of training to get there
2. dance quality of certain players; they use their feet like hands, and if you watch their arms in slow mo as they get into a set play, it looks like choreography
3. no commercial breaks, no breaks in the action at all unless someone is injured or a pk is awarded; it’s hypnotic
ditto about kid soccer:
1. girls love it, girls can do it, girls are assumed to be able to do it, boys respect girls for doing it (yes, i was a kid before title IX)
2. the ritual of the saturday games . . . find the shin guards, make sure the cleats have laces, locate the field, bring the lawn chairs
3. it’s outdoors in all weather, and you deal with whatever it is — 100 degrees in the shade or cold rain blowing sideways
hitchhiker
my favorite things about high level soccer, in no particular order:
1. sheer athleticism displayed in every single human body on the field; you know it took a long, long grind of training to get there
2. dance quality of certain players; they use their feet like hands, and if you watch their arms in slow mo as they get into a set play, it looks like choreography
3. no commercial breaks, no breaks in the action at all unless someone is injured or a pk is awarded; it’s hypnotic
ditto about kid soccer:
1. girls love it, girls can do it, girls are assumed to be able to do it, boys respect girls for doing it (yes, i was a kid before title IX)
2. the ritual of the saturday games . . . find the shin guards, make sure the cleats have laces, locate the field, bring the lawn chairs
3. it’s outdoors in all weather, and you deal with whatever it is — 100 degrees in the shade or cold rain blowing sideways
handy
@Cat Lady:
Mmm….
So how do you say “grilled octopus” in German any way?
handsmile
@Bill Murray:
Yes, England will be represented at the World Cup final with the appointment of Howard Webb as referee. (Reports that the Dutch national team broke into riotous cheers when advised of the selection have yet to be confirmed.)
Having failed to make a colossal blunder as referee during the Champions League final between Inter Milan and Bayern Munich last May, Webb must be eager to restore his reputation in Sunday’s match. Devotees of Mr. Webb’s work in the English Premier League are confident that he will distill all the vision, consistency, and exacting standards that distinguished the matches of his fellow countrymen in South Africa.
MikeJ
@Therese:
Football is a winter game. That’s why kids play “jumpers(in American: sweaters) for goalposts.” American MLS plays in the summer so they can tempt over the hill european players to play here and let good Americans play in Europe during the real football season.
Jim in Chicago
@Bootlegger:
I wouldn’t go that far, but Holland HAS to tackle harder than Germany if they don’t want Spain to spend 90 minutes passing around them.
Also want to 2nd tomvox’s endorsement of the EPL. Watching teams that pass and attack like Arsenal or Spurs is a joy. If watching teams defend for 90 minutes floats your boat or watching a league where the same 2 teams will always finish miles ahead of all the others floats your boat, by all means watch Serie A or La Liga. ;)
PanAmerican
@Therese:
The Crew don’t having any of those sorts of games upcoming. Aside from the MLS schedule they will have a bunch of CONCACAF Champions League games later this year and and a potential US Open Cup semi and or final.
The USA men have the Gold Cup and the U20 World Cup next summer. The U20 Women’s World Cup starts next week.
Paula
OT, but I fucking hate pointy-headed academic liberal elitists. No snark:
http://www.fpif.org/blog/us_mens_world_cup_team_rides_a_wave_of_jingoism
Embarrassing.
burnspbesq
@MikeJ:
Wrong on multiple levels.
MLS plays in the summer for the same reason they play in the summer in Russia and Scandinavia, and for the same reason the Bundesliga takes a two-month break in the middle of the season. You can’t play in the winter in at least a third of MLS cities. You find me 20,000 people who are willing to sit outside in Bridgeview, Foxborough, Toronto, Harrison, Denver, or Kansas City when it’s 18 degrees Fahrenheit and the wind is blowing 25 miles an hour, and we can talk about MLS playing a August-to-May schedule. I’d love that: MLS playoffs and the NCAA lax tournament going on at the same time would make May the best sports month of the year. But it ain’t happening.
Nobody plays a full season in both MLS and a European league. It can’t be done. There is too much overlap. Even Donovan’s 10-week loan spell at Everton was virtually unprecedented.
Calouste
@Paula:
Meh. Football is about tribalism. 22 guys kicking a ball around is just a ritual to divinate who the gods will bless. Sometimes the gods can be pleased by gracious movements, other times the high priests seem to decide on signals from the gods that are not obvious to anyone else.
Funny to see someone write about American soccer jingoism who obviously never has been in a serious football country during the month of the World Cup and the few weeks leading up to it. Would probably give the poor writer a heart attack.
burnspbesq
@Therese:
Closest to you: Man United against Philly Union at Lincoln Financial Field on 7/21 and Man City vs. Inter Milan at M&T Bank Stadium in Baltimore on Saturday 7/31. The Real Madrid matches – vs. Club America at Candlestick Park in SF on 8/4, and against the Galaxy at the Rose Bowl on 8/7 – are just going to be insane.
Calouste
@MattR:
“Uniting Madrid and Barcelona
is the equivalentmakes the task of asking Boston and New York to put aside their differences for a month every four years look like something you can hand off to a four year old.”Fix’t.
JenJen
Xavi! Xavi! Xavi!
Don’t know if any of you ever subject yourselves to “Morning Joe”, but I’m going to miss Roger Bennett’s excellent soccer segments; the guy is hilarious and provides excellent insight. As far as Saturday’s match, he says Germany’s heart isn’t in it and they just want to go home, so Uruguay all the way.
And Paul the Octopus has chosen Spain for the Final. Big surprise, eh?
JenJen
And the Golden Ball nominees are…
Diego Forlan (URU), Asamoah Gyan (GHA), Andres Iniesta (ESP), Lionel Messi (ARG – really??), Mesut Oezil (GER), Arjen Robben (NED), Bastian Schweinsteiger (GER), Wesley Sneijder (NED), David Villa (ESP) and Xavi (ESP).
What does everyone think? I’d have to say Sneijder at this point, followed by Forlan. Maybe Xavi. Maybe Villa. But Sneijder and Forlan were more crucial to their teams’ success, I think.
handsmile
@JenJen:
It’s only now that the toxic severity of your symptoms has become apparent. Subjecting yourself to “Morning Joe” just to watch a brief segment on the World Cup is an alarming indication of delirium or moral dehydration. There are vastly more effective medications for what ails you, and you won’t have to throw up every five minutes after listening to Joe/Mika/Willy and their noxious friends.
While full recovery may no longer be available to you from the global epidemic of football, you must learn to manage your symptoms.
:) Your very kind words to me on an earlier thread were deeply appreciated! :)
LGRooney
Sorry, but without an appropriate nod to the genius of Xabi Alonso, I can’t take the article too seriously. Xavi is clearly the axis around which Spain rotate but Alonso tilts the Spain planet thus shifting the seasons. Alonso is the one who states whether they are on attack or in a holding pattern. Xavi simply directs the attack when Alonso gives the go.
FSM, I miss his presence at the ‘Pool!!
Blue Neponset
@LGRooney: Amen! Xabi Alonso is Joe Montana and Xavi is someone other than Joe Montana. I have been a bit surprised at the lack of Alonso love. The guy is always in the middle of play. If he doesn’t make the all star team I may have to send FIFA a sternly worded letter.
Also, I have been trying to find an EPL team to root for the last couple of years and I have finally decided it will be Liverpool. I look forward to never having to walk alone. Hopefully they won’t sell all their good players in the next three weeks. I think Torres is gone but as long as Gerrard sticks around they should be okay. That Serbian dude they just signed looks like he may get some goals and Aquilani is going to have a break out year. Yes, I am serious.
Sarcastro
Supposing that one were interested in attempting to follow this infernal sport, how would one go about it?
Since you obviously have an internet connection, the place to start is ESPN3. They will be airing over 800 games in the coming season from Serie A (the Italian top league, defensive minded but tight), the Bundesliga (Germany, like English ball but with more goals), La Liga (Spain, two awesome teams and some others), the Eredivise (Holland, Philips must be a sponsor because all we got last year was PSV games) and the Super Liga (Portugal, decent ball played in front of crowds that make MLS look well attended). They start up in mid August and run until late May.
Now this, and the EPL and Champions League on broadcast TV (or torrent in my case), will get you a lot of games to watch, but you also need something that will help explain the nuances of the game. For this I can’t recommend highly enough the BBCs “Match of the Day” highlights show which airs every day there’s EPL games played and is usually available via bittorrent the next day.
The hosts on that show do a simply awesome job of breaking down, diagramming and critiquing all the big plays. If I’d had that show around when I was a kid I’d have been twice the player I was. They’ll show you what a solid defense looks like and what a collapsing defense looks like, they’ll show you how space is created and exploited… they’ll show you how the game is played by the very best that play it.
Bill Murray
@handsmile: I think the referee selectors see the ball head and mistake him for Collina. They’d not think that if they saw him ref
JenJen
@handsmile: Haha!!! Would it be inappropriate to call you my board crush?
LGRooney
@Blue Neponset: For the longer term future of the club, I was hoping to see Torres, Mascherano and Gerrard go. I would imagine some of the transfer funds could be used to buy some new talent but it just may happen that the funds could be used to reduce the debt on the balance sheet so the two idiot “owners” could get the hell out and someone could come in who gives a damn. Alternatively, the sale of those names could devalue the Liverpool brand enough that the “owners” would have no choice but to cut their losses and run.
Of course, Gerrard was born for the Reds and his occasional fierceness fighting for victory has meant a great deal to the team and the city so it would be a pity to see him go. I want to see more local Scouse talent brought into the team, quite frankly, just because the host of journeymen on the roster don’t quite get the “Shankly spirit.” If you know what I mean. Which brings to mind the best possible use of any funds available after the sale of players, development of the academy and the future.
In any event, I don’t see Aquilani doing too much. He is clearly talented but he was also under the wing of Benitez. Without that protection, he may not be psychologically prepared for the trial ahead. Because his worth was so questioned due to his lack of fitness and lack of impact with what little playing time he had, any tiny mistake he makes will be presumed to be emblematic of his lack of value in people’s minds. Can he hold up under that strain?
Bill Murray
@Bill Murray: that of course should read bald head not ball head
handsmile
@JenJen:
I blush, and I suspect it’s not the New York heat wave. All best wishes!
Re Roger Bennett: I am unfamiliar with the man and his work, but if the pinheads at MSNBC’s front office (cf. their banning of Markos Moulitsas) had anything to do with his selection, do feel comfortable betting the mortgage money on a German victory. The sole outstanding question on Germany’s preparation for their Saturday match with Uruguay is whether Joachim Loew will be sporting his blue cashmere sweater.
Re Golden Ball: I have to imagine that the identity of the victorious nation [cough..spain..cough) on Sunday will determine the prizewinner. (Thus, Sr. Xavi will have to interrupt his vacation to install a new shelf in the trophy case.)
Perhaps not entirely fair, as you suggest: the consensus seems to be that without Sneijder the Oranje would have been pulped.
SB Jules
My favorite world cup related article in the L.A. Times this morning was this from the true king of flops:
http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-world-cup-divac-20100709,0,969194.story
Vlade knows flops :)
handsmile
@Sarcastro:
Many thanks for your tantalizing description of what will be offered next season by ESPN3! This may compel me to overcome my deep-rooted aversion to watching matches on the computer. (Luddite and proud of it!)
Re: BBC’s “Match of the Day”: the irrepressible wits at the Guardian’s football website heap scorn on what they refer to as the “BBC Museum.” As an arts professional, I adore and often reside in museums, but in this instance, I believe the pejorative implication is correct.
On an earlier thread (“Wednesday Semifinal”, July 7), I listed a number of other football websites and programs that may be of interest to you, though I suspect you would be acquainted with most.
handsmile
@Bill Murray:
How I weep in memory of Collina’s glowering stare, the sheen off his dome blinding players into submission!
You may be interested to learn that Reuters reports that he has accepted an offer from UEFA to oversee training, development and evaluation of referees for that organization’s tournaments.
Advocating more humans rather than technology to enhance match decision-making, the shaven savant declared:
“People have said that in last season’s Europa League there were no controversial calls, but I think it is exactly because of the extra officials in the area. I think some of the shock cases in the World Cup would have been avoided.”
His words to Blatter’s (deaf) ears….
Therese
Thanks to all for the links to future soccer matches, etc.
The real question is: when will Iker Casillas next land on American soil and how can I make him my boyfriend? I’m pretty sure, with some delicate negotiations, my husband will be okay with it.
Jim in Chicago
Another point in the EPL’s favor: I count at least 6 teams with a legitimate shot at the top spot (not necessarily in this order):
Chelski
ManU
Arsenal
Spurs
ManCity
Liverpool
I don’t know that any of the other big 4 leagues (Italy, Spain, Germany) can say that almost 1/3 of the teams have the talent to win the trophy.
scott
@Therese
Join the line for Saint Iker lust, but he’s currently taken by Spanish TV figure Sara Carbonera (say hi, Sara – http://www.thefinalthird.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/sara_carbonera_iker_casillas.jpg)
During the Spain-Germany game, they cut to her benind the goal and behind the camera, waving enthusiastically after her squeeze made a good save. The girls at Kickette.com jealously call her Sara Pastasauce, but I’m sure that doesn’t bother her very much. To get Iker, you’ll have to either cut her out of the picture or explore how flexible his views might be on monogamy. Best of luck!
SRW1
@Jim in Chicago:
There are some investigations and discussions about the competitiveness of European Football leagues and they don’t seem to agree with your opinion on the EPL being the one. Of course, these investigations are based on historical data, whereas you are making a prediction for next season.
For a business-focused investigation here and the EPL in particular a discussion here.
LGRooney
@Therese: You’ll have to line up behind my wife who claimed him about 4 years ago. ;-)
handsmile
@Therese:
Compliments on your inspired World Cup menu, especially the scrumptious dinner choice! But I must hesitantly inquire…Dutch Baby pancakes? “Dutch Baby” pancakes? Perhaps this is an ethnic joke known only to denizens of Ohio? Does it involve tiny wooden shoes? Crumbled dike bricks? Thimblefuls of gin in the syrup, perhaps? A teaspoon of ground cannabis in the batter? Yet another reason to visit my friends in Dayton.
On another matter: if you have the interest, inclination or, perhaps most precious, the time, to evolve from your self-described “newbie” status, I would encourage you to consider watching the professional football club matches broadcast throughout the year. Simply by virtue of the frequency of the games presented by the networks recommended by several posters here, you will quickly expand your knowledge and appreciation of the game.
Another pleasure of viewing these club matches (especially those of the English Premier League, Italy’s Serie A, Spain’s La Liga, the German Bundesliga) will be to reacquaint you with a number of players first encountered at the World Cup. As a personal example, the young German midfielder Mesut Oezil was known to me only through media reports. Now most impressed by his performance in South Africa, I am eager to see matches featuring his professional team Werder Bremen.
As you know, football can be pathologically infectious. One might wish to heed Dante’s warning from the Inferno: “Abandon hope, all ye who enter here.” Should you throw caution to the winds, however, there is every possibility that come the next World Cup in 2014 friends and family will be turning to you to explain just what the hell “offside” means and why everybody hates Portugal.
One final, albeit sad, point: far be it from me to squash romantic yearnings, but Iker Casillas has been claimed by a Spanish sportscaster. While I’m sure your husband would disagree, Sara Carbonero might be regarded by some as a worthy competitor for the object of your affections. Buena fortuna!
Randy Paul
Footiefox is a great add-on for Firefox. I would urge you to get it.
Therese
@handsmile: and @ scott:
I’m not worried about Sara. I plan to bake my way into Iker’s heart. He will be powerless to resist my banana bread, granola cookies and blueberry pancakes.
Handsmile, lol on the dutch babies. I believe they are the same as German pancakes…one big puffy pancake cooked in a skillet in the oven. You can put apples or pears in them, sprinkle with powdered sugar and lemon juice. I’ll experiment with the crumbled dike bricks.
I will heed your advice and further my soccer education by tuning into more professional matches. It’s bound to get ugly though. The only reason I watched the World Cup this year is because my 8 year old is a budding player, having just finished his first year of select soccer. During one game this spring three dads on the team commented independently of one another on how vocal I was. Ouch! I think they were just ribbing me. If that’s how I am when I’m clueless about the game, imagine how obnoxious I’ll be with a little education.
Thanks for injecting a little Dante in my day. Home all summer with 4 kids and am losing brain cells by the minute!
Therese
Kind of a dumb question, but when does the game actually start Sunday? Is 2:30 ET when coverage starts or play starts?
Gold Locket
At least one Englishman made it to the final – maybe 11 will make it next time.
Randy Paul
@Therese: Coverage at 1:30, game at 2:30
Therese
@Randy Paul:
Thanks. I was catching my husband up on the two final teams, doing my best to describe their respective styles. Had a harder time with the Netherlands. How would you describe their style? What is their best chance to beat Spain?
Leeds man
@LGRooney:
For the longer term future of the club, I was hoping to see Torres, Mascherano and Gerrard go.
See, that’s what distinguishes you from a Liverpool supporter. Gerrard leaving Liverpool would not be viewed as a long term gain, but as sacrilege. It’s not always about the beans.
Leeds man
@Therese:
What is their best chance to beat Spain?
Sneijder ricochet shot off Piqué’s shin and Puyol’s arse into the top right hand corner.
Jim in Chicago
@SRW1:
Spurs finishing in the top 4 this year and Liverpool finishing below Manchester City and Aston Villa suggests things might be budging a bit….