Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

New McCarthy, same old McCarthyism.

There are consequences to being an arrogant, sullen prick.

Rupert, come get your orange boy, you petrified old dinosaur turd.

They punch you in the face and then start crying because their fist hurts.

I like political parties that aren’t owned by foreign adversaries.

I am pretty sure these ‘journalists’ were not always such a bootlicking sycophants.

Red lights blinking on democracy’s dashboard

Giving in to doom is how authoritarians win.

It is not hopeless, and we are not helpless.

We’re watching the self-immolation of the leading world power on a level unprecedented in human history.

Mediocre white men think RFK Jr’s pathetic midlife crisis is inspirational. The bar is set so low for them, it’s subterranean.

If you tweet it in all caps, that makes it true!

Fight for a just cause, love your fellow man, live a good life.

Technically true, but collectively nonsense

The real work of an opposition party is to oppose.

This has so much WTF written all over it that it is hard to comprehend.

Trump’s cabinet: like a magic 8 ball that only gives wrong answers.

Washington Post Catch and Kill, not noticeably better than the Enquirer’s.

You can’t attract Republican voters. You can only out organize them.

Something needs to be done about our bogus SCOTUS.

Stamping your little feets and demanding that they see how important you are? Not working anymore.

When I decide to be condescending, you won’t have to dream up a fantasy about it.

The low info voters probably won’t even notice or remember by their next lap around the goldfish bowl.

Our messy unity will be our strength.

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480Comments

  2. 2.

    eric

    We do. Two deserving sides that (mostly — one exception) play the game the right way. A first time winner. Great head line players.

    As someone that thinks that ESPN far under-performs as a sports network (see James, LeBron), let me give them kudos for generally very good coverage that did not dumb down the game for the American audience.

    eric

  3. 3.

    cmorenc

    Two wonderfully well-matched, high-quality teams for this final, both of whom play a very attractive style of ball. Despite some commentators given an edge to Spain, IMHO the outcome of this one is impossible to predict. I predict a very close, dramatic game.

    If I have to pick one, it will be the Dutch jumping into the canals of Amsterdam in joy from a dramatic goal in the last 20 minutes that holds up, despite a furious Spanish attack toward the end with a couple of near-misses just before the final whistle.

    Pay no attention to the prognosticators, pro or amateur, or me. It will be a great, worthy game that will be forever mentioned as an immortal classic of WC finals.

  4. 4.

    mattt

    I only watch a few game of soccer every four years but…. Spain doesn’t look overpowering, and the Dutch have a lot of weapons. But if they press to break Spanish possession they will leave themselves open.

    1-1, going to penalty kicks.

  5. 5.

    cmorenc

    @Eric

    As someone that thinks that ESPN far under-performs as a sports network (see James, LeBron), let me give them kudos for generally very good coverage that did not dumb down the game for the American audience.

    THAT.

    Kudos to ABC when they took their turn with the higher-profile weekend games too (same commentators and producers as ESPN, so praise for one is praise for both).

  6. 6.

    mattt

    I’ll be pulling for Spain, btw. The Dutch attacking style is more entertaining but all their diving makes them villains. Spain is one of the cleanest teams I’ve seen in a dozen or so games, definitely white hats here.

  7. 7.

    Andy K

    I’ve had Spain winning for two years, and I’ll stick with the pick…But I’m rooting for the Dutch.

  11. 11.

    sherifffruitfly

    I’m not especially a fan of soccer (soccer/hockey share the same fundamental flaw), but I’ve enjoyed this world cup – even despite those gawdawful horns.

    I think the reason I’ve enjoyed this WC is that I online game, and interact with people from all of these countries on a regular basis. It’s almost impossible not to get a little caught up in the hoopla in that situation. I work with a large number of internationals as well, but they’re mostly from the same place, so that effect isn’t as strong.

    I wonder how many other young(-ish) gamers have a similar experience – hearing serbs smacktalking french (and vice-versa, of course), and such things on a daily basis, and feel a bit more “in” as a result?

    More broadly, I wonder if the popularity of online gaming can do any work towards lessening “stupid American” provincialism?

  14. 14.

    stuckinred

    I have some Colombian friends who are supposed to be coming over to watch. If they do I’ll not be able to hang out here so I want to thank Randinho for doing this. . .it made the World Cup even more interesting than it otherwise would have been.

  15. 15.

    valdivia

    going against Paul the Octopus. I hope the Orange team wins. Sorry i wont be able to hang out here either going off to watch with some friends.

  16. 16.

    mattt

    @eric: As I was typing my penalty kick prediction I thought: boy, that’s a cop out!

    Either way it will be great to see one of two good soccer countries win for the 1st time.

  18. 18.

    Leeds man

    I wanted the Dutch to win since England got dumped, but the Spanish have converted me. They will win in regular time.

  19. 19.

    Andy K

    Oh, for fuck’s sake…Two idiots brought vuvuzelas to the bar at which I’m watching the game.

  20. 20.

    superfly

    @eric:

    We do. Two deserving sides that (mostly—one exception) play the game the right way. A first time winner. Great head line players.
    As someone that thinks that ESPN far under-performs as a sports network (see James, LeBron), let me give them kudos for generally very good coverage that did not dumb down the game for the American audience.

    Yep. I actually emailed them to tell them so, don’t know if it will get read by anyone that matters, but wanted them to know.

  22. 22.

    licensed to kill time

    I’m rooting for de Nederlands for reasons that have nothing to do with futbol, but Hup, Holland, Hup!

  26. 26.

    Bootlegger

    @mattt:

    Spain is one of the cleanest teams I’ve seen in a dozen or so games, definitely white hats here.

    Which games have you been watching? Those guys drop if they’re sneezed on. I’ll grant you that they aren’t hackers though, only three yellow cards in the whole tournament.

  27. 27.

    Bootlegger

    No test of our “white kit” theory here.

    Spain with the first chance, and that was way too easy.

  28. 28.

    Amir_Khalid

    Over at Time mag, movie critic Richard Corliss — who has an international readership, and so really ought to know better — is giving a late-in-the-season example of the American pundit looking down his nose at soccer. This kind of thing pops up in the US media every four years without fail, always (and only ever) during World Cup season. I’m intrigued by this phenomenon. It suggests an insecurity about football in some American circles that the rest of Earth just doesn’t have about sports largely identified with the US like baseball and the gridiron sport. Any thoughts from the Balloon Juice commentariat?

    I’m enjoying this final the way Led Zeppelin ventured into Kashmir –with no predictions, but an open faith.

  30. 30.

    mattt

    @Bootlegger: I only saw half the Switzerland game and all of Germany. I was thinking of the fouls but they can’t dive half as much as the Dutch, either…..of course “Clean” is relative.

  36. 36.

    Comrade Mary

    My favourite colour is orange, I go for the underdog, and I like to think I’m smarter than a piece of calamari. Hup Holland Hup!

  37. 37.

    Bootlegger

    @Amir_Khalid: We know how pale our “American” sports are compared to World Football, and I mean in terms of popularity. We simply can’t stand not being the center of the world’s attention. Of course we can’t even win the world championship in two of our “own” sports anymore and that only adds to the anxiety. These quadrennial sneers are the equivalent of tweenie girl jealousy: “I sooo hate her, cuz she’s like, such a bitch, ya know.”

  38. 38.

    TR

    Puyol is just an unfrozen caveman who landed a spot on the Spanish team. Your yellow card frightens and confuses him!

  40. 40.

    Bootlegger

    @mattt: The will dive as much as the Dutch, and really its only Robben that cries.

    Oh, there ya go, a hard tackle and the Spanish player acting like he stepped on an IED.

  42. 42.

    Andy K

    @eric:

    True, that, but I don’t think the Dutch woke up until just after we started this conversation.

  43. 43.

    mattt

    @Andy K: The Dutch were a much better team after the half vs Uruguay, too.

    @You don’t say: I wonder too. I think if you kick the ball before the opposing player, just about any leg contact is ok. Anyone care to correct my ignorance?

    It seems like a lot of upper body contact is allowed and I have no idea what the “line” is there.

  44. 44.

    Bootlegger

    @You Don’t Say: If you get the ball before the man is generally the rule. An exception is a tackle from behind.

    Ah, and there’s Robben pounding the grass after Captain Caveman, Spain’s bass player, took his feet out.

  45. 45.

    Andy K

    @TR:

    Puyol Kathy Griffin is just an unfrozen caveman who landed a spot on the Spanish team. Your yellow card frightens and confuses him!

    FIFY

  46. 46.

    eric

    and my earlier noted exception performs as expected. Waste of a yellow card this early in the game

  47. 47.

    Bootlegger

    @mattt: Upper body contact is “officially” ok if it is shoulder to shoulder. That said you will see a lot of holding and use of the arms that is technically illegal but so ubiquitous it is only called in the most egregious and obvious instances, kind of like the hand-check in the NBA.

  49. 49.

    You Don't Say

    @Bootlegger: Thanks. But aren’t they already in motion before it’s determined who gets to the ball first? Like a late hit in A. football? Sometimes it’s unavoidable.

  50. 50.

    That's Master of Accountancy to You, Pal

    One more, and the Spanish will have doubled their yellow card total for the tournament. Van Bommel deserves one on general principles.

  51. 51.

    mattt

    @ bootlegger: And Kuyt and van Bommel and the midfielder with the Russian-sounding name….

    PS. van Bommel is a thug.

  52. 52.

    TR

    Nice hug between two players with yellows already — like siblings making a show of their love for each other just so mom doesn’t get mad at them

  53. 53.

    Comrade Mary

    @Randinho: True, but the key to insulting an opponent is not just to cast aspersions on them, but to get some nagging fact about them wrong.

    (I am now imagining an indignant cephalopod rapping on the glass in Morse code, insisting that it is NOT a damn foreigner of a squid. Delicious.)

  54. 54.

    That's Master of Accountancy to You, Pal

    Have Dutch had ball possession more in the first 25 minutes than the Germans did in the entire semi-final?

  55. 55.

    Bootlegger

    @You Don’t Say: Yeah, so if I beat you to the ball and then you slide into me its a foul and if you come in too hard or with your studs up you will be carded. Those balls where both players are charging in full speed are called “50-50” balls, or more colorfully, “hospital balls”.

  57. 57.

    mattt

    Thanks for replies to my confusion.

    I figured out why many Americans don’t like soccer….no commercial breaks to get up and get another beer.

  58. 58.

    eric

    @You Don’t Say: think of it like a blocked shot in basketball…if you hit the arm it is a foul: if you hit the leg first it is a foul; if you get all ball on the block but the body slams into the shooter it is a foul: if you get the ball first but you get the body in a violent way after, you can still get the foul (especially if from behind).

    eric

  59. 59.

    Alex S.

    This is going to be ugly… and if it’s going to be that way, I want to see a few red cards.

  60. 60.

    Amir_Khalid

    @You Don’t Say: Generally, going for the ball = clean tackle; going for the player = dirty tackle. Sliding tackles and tackles from behind are considered dangerous play; depending on the referee’s assessment of the potential/actual damage, these tackles can merit either a yellow card or a red card.

  65. 65.

    Bootlegger

    @Randinho: Which makes for interesting drama sometimes because they may be old pals and pat each on the butt, or like Rooney and Ronaldo, fundamentally dislike each other to begin with and when they meet in the World Cup one gets the other ejected.

  68. 68.

    Donald

    de Jong is a bastard. Not as bad as evil Luis Suarez of course, but that kick on X Alonso was absurdly dangerous.

  69. 69.

    mattt

    After van Bommel kicking Iniesta in the achilles and now de Jong’s kung fu move….anybody still rooting for the Dutch?

  73. 73.

    Bootlegger

    @mattt: And Puyol’s tackle was a love tap? Gimme a break. Both of the these teams are playing very physically right now and the ref has decided to give the warnings early. I agree with some others, there will be a red or two in this one.

  75. 75.

    That's Master of Accountancy to You, Pal

    Does Puyol get carded for fouling his own goalie?

  77. 77.

    Donald

    These yellow cards, Puyol and a faceful of his own keeper’s crotch…who says soccer’s not a contact sport?

  78. 78.

    You Don't Say

    Thanks for responses. Slow mo helps. Don’t know how refs see it all in real time. I know, I know: they don’t. ;-)

  79. 79.

    shirk

    Spain started winning me over with their clean commanding play in the win over Germany, and with De Jong’s cleats embedded in Alonso’s chest, my conversion’s complete. La Roja over the thuggish Oranje!

  81. 81.

    Bootlegger

    @eric: You can bet if De Jong even sneezes on someone now he will be gone. A good time for a Spanish dive.

  83. 83.

    TR

    I just realized this matchup is like the NBA Finals in the late ’80s between Magic Johnson’s Lakers and Bill Laimbeer’s Pistons. Too soon to say if it’s 1988 or 1989 yet.

  88. 88.

    Donald

    Pedro making that little charge looked faster than Torres looked all tournament. I don’t think anyone should blame del Bosque for keeping Torres off the starting side. (And maybe no one really is blaming him, but Torres is a big name.)

  89. 89.

    Andy K

    @TR:

    If there’s a cheap foul call near the end that costs the Netherlands, it will be ’88. I’m still pissed about the call at the end of game 6 that year.

  90. 90.

    Bootlegger

    @Randinho: Except that he was actually playing a live ball, his foot wasn’t just up in the air. “Dangerous play”? Of course, but he was clearly after the ball and I’ve seen the person kicked called for the dangerous play before if they put their body in front of a boot playing a ball.

  91. 91.

    That's Master of Accountancy to You, Pal

    He may be a whiner, but Arjen Robben certainly backchecks play defense conscientiously.

  93. 93.

    mattt

    Not referring to the last 3-5 minutes but van Persie looks more active and involved today, as though he played previous games w/o enough sleep. Ignorant prediction: he’ll score or be involved in a goal today.

  101. 101.

    Randinho

    @Bootlegger: I don’t see that he was after the ball at all. I’m following this on three live coverage sites in addition to watching it and they don’t see that either.

  106. 106.

    mattt

    This is not pretty, Sneijder was looking at the man not the ball when he raised his spikes going into the collision.

  107. 107.

    Bootlegger

    @Randinho: The ball was bouncing high, that’s why his foot was there. He missed, by a lot, but there was a ball there.

  109. 109.

    That's Master of Accountancy to You, Pal

    Spain has looked the better side, but the Dutch have had the better scoring chances, it seems to me.

  110. 110.

    jomo

    It feels as though the dutch are interfering with the Spanish flow more than any other team so far. This really could go either way.

  111. 111.

    Andy K

    Those were a few nice chances. Hopefully a sign of things to come in the second half.

  112. 112.

    Bootlegger

    @shirk: Yeah, I’ll give you that. The two Dutch destroyers are clearly trying to slow down the Spanish midfield with physical play. All of these yellow cards will make them back off, or face playing a man or two down.

  114. 114.

    That's Master of Accountancy to You, Pal

    @Bootlegger: I’m rooting for the Dutch, but even I think you’re overstating your case. I didn’t think he was really going for the ball, more using its presence as an excuse.

    However, I think one of the Spaniards just kicked de Jong in the face, so it’s evening up.

  115. 115.

    Alex S.

    @jomo:

    It seems that the Dutch are actually aiming to make the most fouls possible without getting a red card. When Sneijder made that foul, it must have been his “turn” to get his yellow card. There are still 8 dutch players left without a warning…

  116. 116.

    Bill E Pilgrim

    Well, if they allow weapons in the second half, I’ll say the Dutch win. But Otherwise I’ll go with Spain.

  117. 117.

    shirk

    Ugliness aside, props to the Dutch for knocking Spain off the rhythm of their possession game. If the Spanish can’t adjust and get more control in the second half, I could easily see a Dutch 1-0 win when one of their counterattacks finds the net.

  119. 119.

    Mark S.

    If Spain doesn’t score earlier in the second half, I would put in Torres. I know he hasn’t had a great Cup so far, but Villa is being surrounded by three guys. Torres also isn’t 5’2 like the rest of the Spanish team; they could maybe get some headers from him.

  120. 120.

    Donald

    Klinsmann was a better commentator during this WC than Lalas or McManaman. If we can’t have him in charge of USMNT can we at least get him on the TV more?

  121. 121.

    Amir_Khalid

    When Xabi Alonso was playing for Liverpool, he managed on two occasions to score from behind the center line. Those were truly magnificent goals to see. It would be lovely to see him do that today.

  122. 122.

    Bootlegger

    @That’s Master of Accountancy to You, Pal:

    I didn’t think he was really going for the ball, more using its presence as an excuse.

    Oh, I quite agree with you, I was just pointing out that he wasn’t simply doing a flying karate kick in the middle of the field. It was clearly a foul and I’ve seen red given for that before. I suspect the referee was convinced “enough” that it was a (dangerous) play on the ball as opposed to the man so went for his yellow card instead.

  123. 123.

    Bootlegger

    @Randinho: But it was there. Look, I’m not saying it wasn’t a foul, just arguing for why it wasn’t red (but could have been).

  125. 125.

    mattt

    The Torres sub sounds good on paper but when they subbed him in the semi he looked like he was pouting.

  129. 129.

    Bootlegger

    @Randinho: They just showed it three times and the ball is right there, at the same height as his foot, but he was clearly beaten to the ball. The cynical part by De Jong is that he didn’t even try to pull it back when he realized he couldn’t get there.

  130. 130.

    Peter J

    This guy won’t, despite his efforts.

    He even got his own wikipedia page.
    And he’s not the worst today, that would be how the Dutch are playing, they should have a collection of red cards, not yellow.

  132. 132.

    Andy K

    Hey, where’s all the women at? Don’t tell me that my man-crush on Diego Forlan scared ’em all off.

  135. 135.

    Randinho

    @Bootlegger: No way. Alonso headed the ball away. It was coming in the air at least 18 inches above de Jong’s foot. Even Ruud Gullit said he should have been given a red card.

  137. 137.

    mattt

    One thing about American football is that it’s honest about its violence. Soccer is The Beautiful Game? Not today, not yet.

  139. 139.

    mattt

    After I said van Persie looked more alert….it looked like he could have gotten to that.

  140. 140.

    Bootlegger

    @You Don’t Say: Whatever, the ball is clearly there and both players ran hard to the ball. Yes, it could have been red. Yes, De Jong could have pulled it back and kneed him instead. But I’ve been kicked in the face before and I was called for the foul for bringing my head down into someone’s high foot. I’m not saying its a good call or De Jong is an angel. Just sayin’.

  141. 141.

    Violet

    @mattt:

    Rugby is most honest about its violence. If there’s a problem, they settle it on the pitch.

    @Andy K:

    Hey, where’s all the women at?

    I’m here!

  142. 142.

    Bootlegger

    @mattt: It’s a contact sport.

    Puyol just went for a decapitation, the defender ducked that flying elbow or it may have been.

  145. 145.

    Bootlegger

    @Randinho: He missed the header! It looked more like he was trying to body charge De Jong and draw the foul. Nothing wrong with that IMO.

  152. 152.

    mattt

    After my griping about Dutch thuggery that looked like a raw call on van Bronckhorst

  153. 153.

    That's Master of Accountancy to You, Pal

    What, exactly, did van Bronckhorst do there? To me, it looked more like the Spanish player just ran into him.

  154. 154.

    Bootlegger

    De Jong just had to pull up from a midfield challenge because he’s carrying a card. You won’t see anymore bone breakers from him unless he’s sure.

    Spain just demonstrated one of their favorite techniques, run into your defender, fall down, and get the foul.

  159. 159.

    Bootlegger

    @Randinho: Barely and he could have made a clean header if he wasn’t running right at De Jong. Look, Spain does this all the time, run into a defender and draw a foul. A particularly maddening version is when they are running shoulder to shoulder and the fall in front of the defender and draw a PK.

  162. 162.

    Randinho

    Van Bronckhorst threw his arm out into Ramos’ path. Ramos may have made a meal of it, but Van Bronckhorst is not completely blameless.

  165. 165.

    burnspbesq

    C’mon, ladies, it’s the world cup final. If there were ever a match in which no one is going to pull out of a challenge, this is it. The officiating should reflect that.

  166. 166.

    Bootlegger

    @You Don’t Say: Depends on if they want their opponent to understand it. In the ’06 final that Italian player that Zidane headbutted was talking about his sister in French.

  167. 167.

    shirk

    Hey, does anyone know if there’s a soccer match anywhere on TV right now? I seem to have tuned in to a street brawl by mistake.

  170. 170.

    Svensker

    @Andy K:

    Hey, where’s all the women at? Don’t tell me that my man-crush on Diego Forlan scared ‘em all off.

    Working and listening on the radio — running into the TV room when the (very) occasional exciting something happens.

    I’ll see your man crush on Diego and raise you…. hmm, that doesn’t sound right. The Dutch coach is cute, too. Mmm, mmm, mmm.

    This game stinks.

  173. 173.

    shirk

    OMG how did Robben not put that away? Casillas just used up his allotment of good luck getting his foot on that…

  176. 176.

    Bootlegger

    Casillas is absolutely amazing, amazingly lucky there, good job “getting big”.

  177. 177.

    John Cole

    De Jong just had to pull up from a midfield challenge because he’s carrying a card. You won’t see anymore bone breakers from him unless he’s sure.

    Spain just demonstrated one of their favorite techniques, run into your defender, fall down, and get the foul.

    De Jong shouldn’t even be in the game anymore.

  185. 185.

    Violet

    @Svensker:

    This game stinks.

    It sure does. It’s boring. I can’t believe I missed seeing both semifinals. They sounded like really good matches.

  187. 187.

    stormhit

    @Bootlegger:

    “Playing in a dangerous manner is defined as any action that, while trying to play the ball, threatens injury to someone (including the player himself). It is committed with an opponent nearby and prevents the opponent from playing the ball for fear of injury.”

    Your notion that it’s not a foul because the ball is nearby isn’t what the rule is. If you bring your leg up that high you leave yourself open to being called for it, no matter your intention. And that’s if you don’t connect– if you do it’s always a card.

  190. 190.

    Bootlegger

    @burnspbesq: Sure, I’m not disputing the call just saying that Spain dishes out the physical play as much as any team, usually more IMO though the Dutch are going toe-to-toe with them.

  191. 191.

    Lysana

    @You Don’t Say:

    Maybe because they can add minutes during the game, which I still don’t understand. ;-)

    Time is added when play stops due to an injury/card. Pretty simple, really.

  194. 194.

    Violet

    @Mary G:
    Clock goes up in rugby too. Since football started in England, as did rugby, maybe it’s an English thing? It’s harder to follow because you have to do some calculations to figure out how much time is left rather than just having the clock show the remaining time.

  195. 195.

    That's Master of Accountancy to You, Pal

    Jesus, it’s like the ball doesn’t want to go in.

  200. 200.

    Violet

    At least there are some shots on goal this second half. The first half was not very exciting.

  202. 202.

    That's Master of Accountancy to You, Pal

    Kuyt comes off? No offense to Sneijder, but I think Kuyt has been their best player in this tournament.

  203. 203.

    Bootlegger

    @Violet: Football started in England and split into Association Football (soccer, from the “soc”) and Rugby Union Football. So its no coincidence that they both play a running 45 minute clock.

  209. 209.

    eric

    at 203 entries in this thread, you might think Greenwald would have come up at least once ;)

  210. 210.

    TR

    Kuyt was an odd sub out. Playing great and one of the few Dutchmen without a card, right?

  212. 212.

    Amir_Khalid

    I suspect we’ll be seeing this stalemate go into extra time.

    (There. That should provoke the football gods to give us a goal or two.)

  216. 216.

    shirk

    …and the fans in the stands are getting annoyed enough with the flopping that you can hear the whistles over the vuvuzelas…

  220. 220.

    Violet

    So I see my “teams who wear white lose” theory is still working reasonably well. Germany lost to Spain while wearing white. Neither Uruguay nor the Netherlands wore white, but Uruguay’s goalkeeper was in white and they lost.

    Not sure how my theory applies to today’s game. It looks like the Netherlands are wearing a tiny bit of white on their uniforms, so perhaps they’ll lose?

    The ball just doesn’t want to go in the net, does it?

  223. 223.

    Bootlegger

    @John Cole: That would be sweet, and if he does it under the pretense of playing the ball he may escape with a yellow as De Jong did.

  224. 224.

    That's Master of Accountancy to You, Pal

    Van Bommel deserves it, but that foul by Iniesta was cheap.

  230. 230.

    eric

    @Alex S.: I blame Obama for this nil-nil foul-fest and his refusal to call torture torture has allowed such rugged football.

  231. 231.

    Violet

    @Bootlegger:
    Rugby Union has 40 minute halves, not 45 minutes. But yeah, it did come from football. I wonder why they have five fewer minutes per half?

  232. 232.

    Bootlegger

    @Randinho: Come on, that isn’t what he was doing. You don’t try that move with a defender charging at you. Controlling a ball in the open field, yeah, but not under pressure.

  233. 233.

    Bill E Pilgrim

    @Therese:

    How many WC finals have been decided by a shoot out?

    This may be the first that literally gets to that point the way it’s going.

  239. 239.

    That's Master of Accountancy to You, Pal

    I guess that’s why they fall down all the time. Stay on your feet and even the blatant fouls don’t get called.

  243. 243.

    Ash Can

    @Lysana: Yes, you did call YDS stupid, whether you realize it or not. And I’m with YDS on this one. This is the one thing that has confounded me the most about soccer, that the clock doesn’t stop when the action does. As far as I can tell, the seasoned fan can keep track of actual play time with a sharp eye and a stopwatch, or at least a sweep second hand. We more casual fans, however, are left guessing.

  244. 244.

    Lysana

    @Therese:

    How many WC finals have been decided by a shoot out?

    Women’s World Cup between USA and China was decided by shootout. I wound up in a Chinese restaurant for that one. My husband and I shook hands with the owner of the restaurant who was watching with us at the end, all of us standing, happy with how the game went.

  245. 245.

    J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford

    Am I the only one who thinks that Arjen Robben looks like Zinedine Zidane?

  247. 247.

    Bootlegger

    @Randinho: Yeah, that was weird, I kept waiting for his feet to fly out from under him. Ramos was standing still, not running full speed after a 50-50 ball.

  248. 248.

    mattt

    Did I hear the announcers right? If Robben goes down after Puyol’s attempted trip, which clearly impeded him, he gets a free/penalty kick (not sure the term), but by staying up he gets nothing? No wonder they dive.

  253. 253.

    Violet

    @Bootlegger:
    Still wonder why the halves are different times. They must have shortened the halves for rugby. Maybe because it’s even more physically demanding than football? (Disclosure: my household watches a lot of rugby and will be glued to the TV for the Rugby World Cup next year.)

  254. 254.

    Lysana

    @Ash Can:

    Yes, you did call YDS stupid, whether you realize it or not

    I said the reason was pretty simple. I never impugned YDS’s intelligence. If having a basic concept explained to someone means they’re being called stupid, this is not my reality.

  255. 255.

    Bootlegger

    @Ash Can: I went to a game in Stuttgart and half way through the first half asked my German friends where the game clock was. They pointed to a standard clock near the scoreboard and said “the game starts at 2, each half is 45 minutes and halftime is 15.”

  256. 256.

    mattt

    As a casual watcher I kind of like the ambiguity in time, not sure when it’s going to end.

  258. 258.

    TR

    The clock doesn’t stop so the flow of the game can continue. I’m a huge NFL fan, but the fits and starts and constant commercials is maddening. I really don’t get how 45 minutes of nonstop action is a bad thing.

  262. 262.

    That's Master of Accountancy to You, Pal

    I thought Persie was onside there. There was another defender across the pitch behind him.

  263. 263.

    Leeds man

    @Violet:

    Maybe because it’s even more physically demanding than football?

    That’s only because the players are not naturally bipedal.

  266. 266.

    Bootlegger

    @Randinho: Yes he was. That ball was bouncing in midfield and both players were moving toward each other. Look, it was clearly a foul, I’m just saying that the ref likely considered it a rash play on the ball and that is why he gave yellow instead of red. And Alonso was looking for the foul. Also.
    I’m done with this topic.

  269. 269.

    Violet

    @TR:
    Yeah, I love that about watching this World Cup. The game isn’t interrupted by stupid commercials. And there’s no fake timeout like a “two minute warning” or “commercial time out” just to show TV ads. It’s a nice change from the usual commercial-heavy American sports.

    I remember seeing the World Cup on American TV a decade ago or so when they would shrink the games down to a tiny rectangle every so often and show ads around it, or something like that. The football fans I was watching with were really annoyed by how the US was showing the matches. I don’t think they did that again.

  270. 270.

    That's Master of Accountancy to You, Pal

    If this game goes to PKs I’ll be disappointed. If it goes to PKs and Pique doesn’t take one, I’ll be extra disappointed.

  272. 272.

    Bootlegger

    @mattt: Usually you can tell, the referee will allow an attack to continue but when it is cleared and the stoppage time is over he’ll blow the whistle. I kind of wish they would standardize that, maybe say that once the time is expired the defending team has to clear the ball to half or something like that. So far in this tournament the refs have blown the whistle pretty much dead on the end of the stoppage time minutes.

  273. 273.

    Amir_Khalid

    Nine yellow cards, some of which should have been reds — a record for the World Cup final. Scoreless going into extra time. The football gods would not listen to me and offer us a goal. This has been a match that football fans will want to forget, no matter who wins.

  276. 276.

    mattt

    Does Torres need to be on the field to take PKs? I assume one of Spain’s top strikers is a good PK man….if we don’t see him in extra time he must really be in the doghouse.

  277. 277.

    Mark S.

    Man, I think this is going to PKs. Even though Spain is leading in possession 95%-5%, the Dutch have had the better shots.

  278. 278.

    Lysana

    Yeah, I love that about watching this World Cup. The game isn’t interrupted by stupid commercials. And there’s no fake timeout like a “two minute warning” or “commercial time out” just to show TV ads. It’s a nice change from the usual commercial-heavy American sports.

    Abso-fragging-lutely. I’ve been so glad of this. ESPN3 and now Univision are making me happy. It’s the game the way it should be watched, not the way the ad buyers want it watched.

  280. 280.

    Bootlegger

    @Violet: I remember that, and the next tournament they put a sponsor’s logo up next to the score, and not small either it took up the entire top of the screen. ESPN/ABC have clearly caught a clue finally, this coverage has been great.

  281. 281.

    burnspbesq

    Jo’burg is almost 5,000 feet above sea level, so conditioning will be even a larger factor in OT.

  284. 284.

    Bootlegger

    Robben swings his arms like a robot when he turns on his jets. He’s pretty fast but he looks like that spaz on the playground (which was me by the way).

    If Fabregas didn’t dive there the ref may have been more sympathetic.

  285. 285.

    Bill E Pilgrim

    @Lysana: In addition pretty much everything on TV in Europe, well in France anyway, is like that. A whole movie, then commercials all at the end.

    The classic US response is “Well it’s nice of course, but how can they survive like that?”

    The classic French response when seeing US TV on the other hand is “Well, it’s profitable, but how can you watch anything like that?”

  287. 287.

    cmorenc

    @Matt

    Did I hear the announcers right? If Robben goes down after Puyol’s attempted trip, which clearly impeded him, he gets a free/penalty kick (not sure the term), but by staying up he gets nothing? No wonder they dive.

    Nothing in the rules makes this distinction (Robbin goes down = foul, Robbin stays up not), rather in this sort of situation it’s a matter of lack of available referee angles to see the foul and whether it has sufficient effect on play clearly enough to call it if Robben stays up. And no, because the foul took place outside the penalty area, it will NOT result in a “penalty kick” from the mark (with no immediate opponent but the goalkeeper), but rather a free kick from the spot of the foul. But it would result in a red card (send off) for the perp (Spanish defender Puyol) because he was the “last defender” (other than the goalkeeper) and the Dutch attacker with the breakaway (Robben) had an “obvious goal scoring opportunity”.

  290. 290.

    Violet

    @Bootlegger:
    Yeah, I have enjoyed the ESPN/ABC coverage, although for some reason the ESPN audio was seriously better on my TV than the ABC audio. I don’t know if the feeds were different or something, but I’d watch ESPN during the week and then a weekend match would be on ABC and the vuvuzelas would be up so loud you couldn’t even hear the announcers.

    Sheesh, another shot and miss by Spain. Crazy.

  291. 291.

    That's Master of Accountancy to You, Pal

    Nice save by Steckelenberg, but the attack was sprung by an uncalled foul.

  293. 293.

    mattt

    I really like to watch those defenders like Bronkhorst and Piquet who always seem to be in the right place to break up plays without kicking anybody in the shin.

  297. 297.

    SRW1

    @Therese:

    How many WC finals have been decided by a shoot out?

    Two:

    USA 1994: Brazil -Italy = 3:2
    Germany 2006: Italy – France = 5:3

  298. 298.

    That's Master of Accountancy to You, Pal

    Nooooooooooo!!!!!! We lost the satellite!!!!!!!

  300. 300.

    Violet

    Who was that Spanish player who just made that shot at the goal? His eyes are gorgeous.

  308. 308.

    Mary G

    O/T but the clock question got me thinking about why the British drive on the left side of the road and I found out during the commercials at this placethat it stems from the middle ages and they refuse to change it.

  311. 311.

    Therese

    Ugh. This is why I’m not a “real” sports fan. It’s so freaking stressful. I don’t even have a horse in this race and I’m having a heart attack.

  312. 312.

    SRW1

    And after Villa goes off, the last two candidates standing for the Golden boot: Wesley Sneijder and Thomas Mueller. With Mueller ahead because of his three assists.

  315. 315.

    Bootlegger

    Its amazing these guys are still pressing all over the field. I don’t think either of them wants PKs.

  317. 317.

    Amir_Khalid

    @mattt: If it goes to penalties after extra time, you have to still be on the pitch to be eligible to take a kick. Also, if the keeper parries the ball away, the ball is then dead; the kicker cannot attack the rebound, as he would be allowed to during regular play.

  322. 322.

    frankdawg

    I hate when championship games get decided by some bullshit set piece. College football has the best of a bad set of options in that at least each tam gets the ball.

    Hockey & its stupid shootouts, soccer & its PKs. NFL and its coin toss. How about a punt, pass and kick competition? How about after 9 innings the switch to a home run derby?

  323. 323.

    burnspbesq

    No complaint about that one, but the first yellow against Heitinga was bullshit.

  325. 325.

    Bootlegger

    I’m surprised the Dutch lasted that long before giving up the man. Heitinga was a little unfortunate there, he definitely put a hand on Iniesta but he didn’t pull him down, that was all the Spaniard’s sales job.

  328. 328.

    folkbum

    With the Dutch a man down, if it’s tied after ten kicks per side (assuming it’s tied after five and they have to keep going), do the Spanish get the 11th and the Dutch don’t?

  330. 330.

    SRW1

    @Darcy:

    Golden boot is for the best scorer. There are four candidates with five goals: Villa, Sneijder, Forlan and Mueller. Since Sneijder is the only one who can still score, it is between him and Mueller, who leads by virtue of his three assists (all others have only one).

  336. 336.

    Bill Murray

    @TR: but if tied after 5 it goes until there is a difference — I was in a shootout once that went to 23 kickers

  337. 337.

    Bootlegger

    @TR: But if it is tied after that the rest of the team shoots. We looked up the record yesterday, 42 penalties in an FA Cup game.

  338. 338.

    That's Master of Accountancy to You, Pal

    Why was that a goal kick? The ball bounced of the shoulder of one of the guys on the wall.

  347. 347.

    Alex S.

    Finally… the Dutch had 4 touches on the ball during this whole attack, yet they couldn’t defuse the situation.

  350. 350.

    Mary G

    This is grueling; does either team want to win? OK, just as I typed that they score. Yay Spain!

  352. 352.

    Amir_Khalid

    With seven players booked and one sent off, the Dutch might well be facing some kind of post-tournament sanction from FIFA.

  354. 354.

    frankdawg

    well at least we should avoid PKs but this game does not make me excited about soccer.

  356. 356.

    Bootlegger

    It was clearly onside but the Dutch are pissed they didn’t get the call on the other end.

  357. 357.

    Randinho

    @folkbum: Don’t know, but I doubt it.

    Robben should have gotten a yellow for kicking the ball into the net and Holland should have gotten a corner.

    Mathijsen looks like a fool. Iniesta was at least a yard onside.

  360. 360.

    Bill Murray

    I’d still like to see a replay of the Elia non-obstruction that led to the goal, but Webb lost control a long time ago

  364. 364.

    Lysana

    @folkbum:

    So was the octopus perfect this world cup?

    Unless the Netherlands pulls it off, yes. We’re not quite done with extra time yet. bites her nails

  366. 366.

    folkbum

    @Randinho: I think he nailed all of Germany’s games, including the 3rd place match. And he called it for Spain today.

    I didn’t hear if they asked him about the non-German games before this one, though.

  367. 367.

    That's Master of Accountancy to You, Pal

    So why did the Spanish get a goal kick after Sneijder’s free kick? How the ref could have missed that it went off a Spanish player eludes me, since it deflected about 45 degrees.

  369. 369.

    You Don't Say

    Hey, Randinho, thanks for your hospitality and expertise during the tournament.

  374. 374.

    That's Master of Accountancy to You, Pal

    Dammit

    I think it’s safe to say that Webb did not have a good game, though the teams made it tough on him. Who it benefited in the end isn’t at all clear to me.

  375. 375.

    frankdawg

    well – there are 3 hours of my life I’ll never get back. I only got to see maybe 6 full games & parts of a few others & this was the worst of the bunch

  376. 376.

    Joel

    Awesome game, really just awesome. A few major missed calls, but big redemption for Iniesta, who blew some great chances (was leaning towards “Miniesta” myself).

  378. 378.

    Bootlegger

    Spain played well, they deserve it. Not that the Dutch didn’t, but Spain won the game. They won the tournament scoring only 7 goals, amazing.

  379. 379.

    shirk

    @Wordsmith: Octopuses, or octopodes if you want to be pedantic. The “-pus” ending derives from Greek, not Latin.

  381. 381.

    frankdawg

    Thanks to Randinho and to all of you who helped develop my interest in the World Cup – it wsa fun lets do it again in 4 years!

  383. 383.

    Violet

    @You Don’t Say:

    Hey, Randinho, thanks for your hospitality and expertise during the tournament.

    Yes, thank you! It’s been great hanging out here during the World Cup and I learned a lot about futbol as well. Thanks.

  384. 384.

    That's Master of Accountancy to You, Pal

    Huh. I guess I have very different tastes than most people, because I thought this was a very exciting game to watch. There were a lot of fouls, and no scoring for 116 minutes, but the play went up and down and there were plenty of scoring chances. Even though the wrong team won, I enjoyed it.

  387. 387.

    Alex S.

    I don’t know how to feel about this game in the end. It was …interesting… though. Also thanks from me to Randinho for these threads.

  390. 390.

    shirk

    What the others said. Randinho, many thanks for hosting these threads and for providing your commentary. Although I’ve been lurking until the last few, I’ve been reading them all and really appreciate your insight.

  391. 391.

    That's Master of Accountancy to You, Pal

    Ditto on enjoying the threads. We should do this more often; I wish we’d had the same thing during the Olympic ice hockey.

  395. 395.

    Cat Lady

    @Randinho:

    Co-sign. You made me sound like I knew what I was talking about with some friends. I do really hate all the flopping, though. If I wanted to watch that, I’d be a bigger NBA fan. I’m looking at you Ginobili.

  397. 397.

    Andy K

    Great job, Randinho! Thanks to you, Cole and everyone who commented here during the tournament.

  399. 399.

    Lysana

    @Andy K:

    No Diego Forlan, no Andy K on those threads.

    But will the Cup have Forlan in four years? Semi-serious question. :)

  400. 400.

    Cacti

    I had no one to cheer for in this Final match.

    I’m not really happy that Spain won, but OTOH, I’m a little happy the dirty Dutch lost the way they did. Down a man after a Red Card send-off.

  401. 401.

    TR

    @Andy K:

    Direct TV, you suck.

    What do you mean? I’m watching on DTV and no problems.

    That said, they can suck royally. I’m just not sure specifically how they’re sucking now.

  402. 402.

    mcd410x

    Glad Cesc got the assist on the winner. Going to miss seeing that lad when he leaves.

  403. 403.

    cmorenc

    Well done Randinho, thanks for hosting the WC threads! Thanks to John Cole for having Ranhinho at BJ to create and comment during these threads!

  405. 405.

    MikeJ

    Africa conquered Spain in 711CE and Spain finally gets around to returning the favour.

  406. 406.

    Randinho

    @Bootlegger: Copa America is always on Univision here in the US. If the USMNT gets invited (two teams from CONCACAF always go to round out the groups as CONMEBOL only has ten countries), I could see FSC covering it. ESPN carried Euro 2008 here in the USA

  407. 407.

    mattt

    Well, as the announcers are saying at least the best team won!

    Thanks to all here for the education, and for making the final more enjoyable.

    See you in 4 years!

  408. 408.

    Turgid Jacobian

    @Randinho: Yeah, but our coach sent a “B” team to the last one we were invited to. There’s got to be a chance we get snubbed next go ’round. (We=USA)

  409. 409.

    Andy K

    @TR:

    We lost the game here. I think it might actually be the local ABC affiliate’s fault, since the tv in the bar that wasn’t tuned to the game was working just fine, thank you very much.

    Whatever happened, we lost the signal about a minute before Iniesta scored. We got back some pixilating signal long enough to see that Spain had scored. Only the two guys sitting with me- and myself, of course- knew he’d scored, because I’ve had the Gamecast up on another tab all afternoon.

  411. 411.

    SRW1

    Randinho, thanks for sheparding these threads during the tournament.

    See you at the Women’s WC 2011 in Germany. (Final: Germany – USA)

  412. 412.

    burnspbesq

    2011 Gold Cup winner represents CONCACAF at the 2013 Confed Cup. Prevailing wisdom is that participation in the Confed Cup last year really helped the US prepare for this year’s World Cup, so expect us to marshal all of our best players for it.

  414. 414.

    JGabriel

    This is it! Who takes home the trophy?

    Spain, apparently.

    Time for a new thread?

    .

  415. 415.

    Turgid Jacobian

    @burnspbesq: Absolutely, especially with a new coach. Possibly. Unlike many others, I’m not against Bob Bradley-I just don’t think that two cycles with one coach is a great idea. Staleness innit?

  416. 416.

    That's Master of Accountancy to You, Pal

    @burnspbesq:

    There has already been one huge shock in qualifying: China is out.

    This tournament is getting better already.

  417. 417.

    Polly

    Randinho, what is “sarcastic walking”? One sportscaster refered to this in extra play time.

    Thanks for all your posts, I’ve learned a lot from you.

  418. 418.

    Georgia Pig

    Best team won. Netherlands has some great players (Robben), but the Dutch defenders, like von Bommel and De Jong, are thugs. Like a freaking hockey game at times, lots of holding and checking. The Spanish started to mix it up in the second half, but the Dutch bear the blame for most of the rough play.

    Shitty way to play a final, the game yesterday was far better. They need to rethink the rules on fouls because they tend to be either too lenient or too draconian and warp big games. Maybe throw guys out for a borderline red card foul and force a sub so that the other team doesn’t get a man advantage until you run out of subs. Then, maybe the ref could have thrown Von Bommel or DeJong out early for some of their more egregious plays without ruining the game by making the Dutch play the whole game a man down. Either that or some kind of penalty box, one man down for five minutes.

  420. 420.

    Turgid Jacobian

    @Polly: a player was pacing off 10 yds for a free kick. Ref might do this, might just go to 10 yds (he’s had a bit of practice at figuring the distance). Having a player do it is a slap at the ref… probably not a good idear if you don’t want to get a card.

  421. 421.

    Randinho

    @Turgid Jacobian: Not so. The B team went to the CONCACAF Gold Cup in 2009, which occurred right after the Confederations Cup last year, hence the B team being sent.

    The last Copa America was in 2007.

  425. 425.

    LosGatosCA

    And that’s why America will never embrace this sport.

    It’s basically unwatchable.

    The skill to opportunity level is just not high enough.

    A one man advantage and a free kick from 25 yards – gets air mailed right over the net.

    The sport is desparately in need of a Paul Brown to re-organize it for success.

    And the officiating and flopping put it on par with the Olympics for a satisfying spectator experience. Just add a Russian judge and it’s complete.

  426. 426.

    wufnik

    in some ways, this was a match made in heaven.The Dutch play a very aggressive game (or you can say they play like thugs), and the Spanish have refined the art of t he dive from the Italians. Perfect!

  429. 429.

    Dr. Squid

    Spain deserved it. Nifty little goal by Iniesta. Of course that was after his dive that drew Heitinga’s second yellow and sendoff, but it’s not like it was so egregious that there’s no way it couldn’t have been a card.

    Listening to the first half in the car, all the flying cards were described as richly deserved, and a few should’ve been straight red. Sounds like the English guy called a proper game.

  431. 431.

    demo woman

    Randinho thank you for hosting the site during the World Cups. The games were exciting and I did learn about the sport. I still wanted Spain to win because let’s face it, they do have some eye candy playing for them.

  432. 432.

    Cacti

    @LosGatosCA: @<a

    And carrying and throwing it with your hands. And each goal should be worth 6 points. And it needs more 350 lbs lard bodies bashing into each other.

    That's the mark of teh rea1 football.

  433. 433.

    Calouste

    Webb 1 – Holland 0.

    This has been the last soccer match I will ever watch. 5 minutes into the second half it was obvious the fix was in.

  434. 434.

    Cacti

    From a political standpoint, it’s rather just and fitting that the Dutch should lose on South African soil.

  435. 435.

    Joe

    Golden Ball for player of the tournament went to Diego Forlan.

    Golden Boot for top goalscorer goes to Thomas Muller on an assist tiebreaker. i.e. 5 goals and 3 assists broke the tie with Villa, Forlan etc.

  436. 436.

    Joe

    @Calouste: Maybe he was trying to make up for the fact that he hadn’t sent off the Van Bommell and De Jong in the first half. Over the whole match the idea that Webb “cost” Holland the match is ridiculous.

    Holland finished the match with 10 men, but it should have been 8 or 9 (and I’m not even counting the guy who DID get sent off as I thought his 2nd yellow was harsh). The better team won.

  438. 438.

    Andy K

    @Calouste:

    It wasn’t so obvious when Robben broke in on Casillas only to see the keeper get just enough of the shot to prevent the go-ahead Dutch goal.

    This was an….interesting game. The Dutch were willing to take cards and relinquish set pieces in order to force the flow of the game to their liking. Had the fix been in, they would have been playing at least a man down for at least an hour.

  440. 440.

    burnspbesq

    @Andy K:

    “when Robben broke in on Casillas only to see the keeper get just enough of the shot to prevent the go-ahead Dutch goal.”

    and Robben was wearing Puyol like a sweater on a warm day, i.e., loosely tied around his shoulders.

  441. 441.

    burnspbesq

    For all the times Robben dove during the tournament, the one time he was actually being fouled in a situation that absolutely would have gotten the guilty party sent off if he’d made a meal of it, he stays on his feet and ends up with nothing to show for it.

    Karma.

  442. 442.

    burnspbesq

    Hate to say it, because I was rooting for them, but the Dutch in this tournament were Butler – just not quite good enough when it mattered most, and therefore one big play short of getting it done.

  443. 443.

    LosGatosCA

    @Cacti:

    Unfortunately, you completely miss my point.

    25 yard free kick and a 1 man advantage.

    Try playing professional American football or baseball or basketball one man short for an extended period of time. The team with the advantage will carve up the other team methodically.

    The fact that soccer teams cannot exploit that type of advantage in a set piece play 90%+ of the time tells me that the game’s strategy is only fulfilling to the participants.

    Inestia blows two chances inside the penalty box because he can’t use his left foot? And he’s a world class scorer on the world championship team in his sport?

    Sorry, that’s just laughable.

  446. 446.

    Andy K

    @LosGatosCA:

    What’s your point? That they should have brought every player forward into the wall, leaving only the guy taking the free kick between any opposing player who might control a ball into the wall?

    Dude, that’s just stupid unless the team was down a goal in added time. For the same reason you leave a defenseman or two back on a faceoff in hockey even playing a man up- you don’t want to give up the shorthanded goal. Jebus. Use your fricking head.

    As for Iniesta’s inability to go left….How many home runs did Ruth hit from the right side of the plate in WS games?

  447. 447.

    Leeds man

    @LosGatosCA:

    If only most of the world could read your analysis. Boy would they feel silly for loving the sport all these years. Stoopid furners.

  448. 448.

    Leeds man

    @LosGatosCA:

    Sorry, that’s just laughable.

    Yeah, and left-right dominance plays no role in golf, tennis, baseball, basketball, football or hockey.

  449. 449.

    Calouste

    @Andy K:

    they would have been playing at least a man down for at least an hour.

    Well, they were. Spain had 12 men on the field starting at half time.

    And of course “the fix is in” means that the ref is going to let thing fall Spain’s way, not going to make blatant calls in their favor, well, not at least until he worked out they were not going to score on their own (not with Villa not able to hit the ball within 5 meters of the post, man, he had a bad game) and he gave a second yellow for a blatant dive and didn’t give the Dutch a corner. If Robben would have scored that goal, Spain would have gotten an equalizer somehow or another.

  450. 450.

    That's Master of Accountancy to You, Pal

    @burnspbesq:

    and Robben was wearing Puyol like a sweater on a warm day, i.e., loosely tied around his shoulders.

    And it’s worth noting that Puyol had already been booked, so Webb wouldn’t even have needed to think that it deserved a straight red card for him to get sent off. As I said at the time it happened, if that’s typical of the way that refs call fouls, then I need to reappraise my view on the baseness of diving; if it’s the only way to get legitimate fouls called, then of course you’re going to see it a lot.

    Soccer has some serious officiating problems. As I said in a different thread, it’s not even that I think that they are necessarily bad at it. It’s just that refereeing a high level soccer match is not humanly possible. There’s too much happening and the distances involved are too great. I know the rest of the world disagrees with me, but it’s a joke. Hockey finally broke down and added a second ref. Soccer probably needs to do the same.

  451. 451.

    ChrisB

    @Andy K:

    As for Iniesta’s inability to go left….How many home runs did Ruth hit from the right side of the plate in WS games?

    How many times was the ball pitched to the right of Ruth’s body instead of the left?

    @LosGatosCA:

    Try playing professional American football or baseball or basketball one man short for an extended period of time. The team with the advantage will carve up the other team methodically.

    So what would you want, teams playing a man or two down for limited periods of time as in hockey or lacrosse (perhaps with misconduct penalties that prevent specific players from returning)?

  452. 452.

    Turgid Jacobian

    @Calouste: Yep, those two blown corners really turned the tide. Frankly the second yellow was late coming for the Ned defender. Neds was about two strait red cards short of what they deserved. Or did you think that De Jong should have gotten a point for that magnificient jump-kick to Alonso’s chest (the one that missed the ball by more than two feet)?

  453. 453.

    LosGatosCA

    @Leeds man:

    Who said they were stupid?

    My point is simply that the scientific method hasn’t been applied to soccer the way it has been to other sports. The strategies, the player selection and positioning all shout it out.

    Even that play by Stecklenberg in goal on the shot from Fabregas in the 100th minute. He stays in the net, doesn’t come out to cut off the angle, then when the shot is taken he gives up his position in the highest percentage placement for the shot to fall to the ground to his right where he can’t block anything anyway.

    He gave up his best possible position for no advantage after his poor reaction to the situation.

    Luckily, the shot went slightly wide so that they didn’t lose on a total embarrassment.

    Hockey goalies give up unscreened slap shots from the blue line all the time. But not in the 7th game of the Stanley Cup finals by leaving the net open.

    There are too many unforced mental errors in soccer, that speaks to substandard coaching, strategies, and preparation.

  454. 454.

    Morbo

    Congratulations, Spain, for granting victory for those who assert that soccer is boring.

  456. 456.

    Leeds man

    @LosGatosCA:

    I’m not sure what your goal is here, but there is always the option of not watching it, or playing it. Maybe set up a soap box on the Appalachian Trail and rail against the idiocy of hiking.

  457. 457.

    Randinho

    @Calouste: And he let a thug get off with a yellow for a karate kick and didn’t book Van Persie for kicking the ball into the net long after the whistle had been blown (which is a bookable offense) and would have resulted in a sending off or Arjen Robben for doing the same.

    The Dutch have no business complaining; neither do their fans.

  458. 458.

    Tancrudo

    @Joe:

    I’m not sure the better team won. If the Dutch had tried to play soccer instead of sock him they might have had a good chance. Besides their obvious brawling skills, some of them are really good soccer players too.

    But the Dutch should be content with their special place in the record books:

    -Dirtiest side in a world cup final

    It’s the record they deserve. Take it home, van Marwijk. It’s your result.

  459. 459.

    LosGatosCA

    @ChrisB: @ChrisB:

    You’d have to fix the officiating problem in soccer, which is also huge, first.

    But, assuming you could get fair officiating at the level of baseball without replays, I’d say game misconducts and timed penalties would certainly help focus the strategy to exploit a predictable opportunity.

    I’d immediately remove the suspension penalty for the following game for the game misconduct as well. Make the penalty and the consequences more immediate for the game underway while making subsequent matches themselves fairer by having all players available. Why have the team in the tomorrow’s game benefit from fouls committed in today’s contest?

    It makes sense to the people who play under the existing rules, but the reality is that the sport could be massively improved very quickly – in terms of strategy and productivity. I think the natural consequence of improving the strategy would the development of greater skill (or better player skill selection) to counteract it.

    As for the dirty players, not only could they cost their team in real time but you can still have a higher threshhold for a game suspension like other professional sports have – nothing prevents that.

  461. 461.

    Mike E

    What a brutal, brutal Final. The Dutch went all Hanson brothers because they knew the Spaniards were just too dominant. As much as I tried to root for the Oranje, Robben’s bitchy prima donna act and the various spike-punches to the neck made me glad that España finally broke through. Congrats.

  463. 463.

    Turgid Jacobian

    @LosGatosCA: Two things:

    My point is simply that the scientific method hasn’t been applied to soccer the way it has been to other sports. The strategies, the player selection and positioning all shout it out.

    1) the amount of money in top-flight soccer suggests otherwise

    There are too many unforced mental errors in soccer, that speaks to substandard coaching, strategies, and preparation.

    2) Some folks called about substandard performances in championships. You may want to get back to them: Bill Buckner. Ray Allen. Rich Gannon. Roger Staubach. Martin Brodeur. Patrik Stefan.

  464. 464.

    flukebucket

    Damn late to this thread but didn’t want it to get by without first expressing my sincere appreciation to you Randinho for the time and effort you put into this. It was one hell of a lot of fun.

    And thank you John Cole for giving him the keys and letting him drive. It was a damn good idea and now that it is over I feel more like a citizen of the world instead of just an American.

    For what it is worth I was pulling for Germany. Why I have no idea but that is where my heart was from the start.

    Already looking forward to the next one.

  466. 466.

    The Gimp

    LosGatosCA:

    It’s not a lack of coaching, strategy or anything like that.

    It’s the fact that these athletes – the most physically fit in all of sports – play virtually non-stop for ninety fucking minutes.

    Let’s see a 300lb lineman, Payton Manning, A-Rod or LeBron do 90 minutes without a real break.

    Soccer is a ridiculously difficult game to play, with constant running on a huge field.

    Yes, they need to do something about the officiating, but complaining that there are too many mental errors and why can’t he use both feet equally well is just plain ignorant.

  467. 467.

    Paula

    This thread went to potty in a hurry …

    Oi. I have no idea why van Bommel was still in this match after the half.

    As for Spain, does it seem to anyone else that what people were saying in regards to their tactical inflexibility was somewhat true? Took them a bit of time to respond to the Dutch gunning-and-running around them. Or maybe that’s just what happens when you have 2 very incompatible styles of play.

  468. 468.

    JenJen

    @Therese: Went to Old Saloon in Kenwood, actually. Fun, pro-España crowd. Had a blast!!

    I’m sure Molly’s was rockin’ too, but not the way it was for the USA or GER matches.

    Sigh. I miss World Cup already. Look forward to feeding my addiction again in August!

    ETA: Catching up on the thread, it’s a shame to see it descended into the usual soccer-hata crap. And on the day of the World Cup Final! There oughta be a law…

  469. 469.

    Randinho

    eastriver,

    Just deleted your troll comment again. Whether you’re in Massachusetts or NYC, you come to bait me and you’ll be deleted.

    Grow up.

  471. 471.

    cmorenc

    @LosGatosCa

    And that’s why America will never embrace this sport. It’s basically unwatchable.

    700 million people around the globe who watched today’s final with rapt interest would vehemently disagree with your “unwatchable” judgment, that is if they gave a fig what you think about the world’s most popular sport by an immense margin. You would get lots of agreement that today’s game fell short in many respects of being as pleasing as it should have been, even that there’s aspects of the rules and the refereeing that could definitely stand to be tweaked for the better. What you would not get is very many among those 700 million who think the game is intrinsically broken or flawed, definitely not such that it needs a fundamental makeover to make it supposedly more pleasing to the tastes of the portion of American sports audiences who aren’t currently aficionados of the game.

    It’s the American so-called “football” that’s basically unwatchable to the tastes of the majority of folks outside the US (and many like me in the US). It consists of disjointed 10 second spurts of action that intermittently break up endless committee meetings among players, coaches, and officials, to say nothing of endless strings of commercials and time-outs. Basketball (a sport that’s more successfully transplanted to other cultures than American so-called “football”) also has an enormous amount of flopping and simulation and deliberate tactical hacking. Is it in need of fundamental makeover too for that reason?

    Frankly, the world doesn’t give a crap what Americans think of futbol, and that’s one of the smaller, but nonetheless sweeter aspects of its charm to the world.

  472. 472.

    cmorenc

    @Joe

    Golden Ball for player of the tournament went to Diego Forlan.

    Extremely well-deserved! If I was forming a soccer team and could choose from among ANY of the players on ANY of the 32 teams at WC 2010, Diego Forlan would be my very first choice – top class player, top class person. Of course, Messi would be my second choice, Mueller my third choice, and oh boy there would be tons of great choices for the rest.

    But Forlan would or should be in the starting eleven of each and every one of the 32 teams, were he of a different nationality.

  473. 473.

    PurpleGirl

    cmorenc @ 471: As I’ve written in any number of BJ comments, I am not a sports fan by any measure yet this afternoon I decided to watch the final World Cup game. I found it easy to watch and follow, even knowing nothing about the rules of play. The goal by Spain was incredible… I saw the kick and then wam! it went into the goal pen. It went by so fast, if you weren’t watching closely you might not have seen it. I’m glad I watched the game.

  474. 474.

    nice strategy

    @Bootlegger: We report, you decide
    (Objectivity is dead)a

    The Netherlands are a disgrace. Absolute rubbish.

  475. 475.

    Paula

    @PurpleGirl:

    I always think it’s kinda crazy when people complain about not “getting it” — what’s there to not get? Kick ball, pass ball, try to get ball in goal. Try not to kick people too hard. Don’t use your hands. Free kicks or cards when someone fouls.

    I get that depending on the skill set of the opposing teams this can turn into tedium, but that’s true of any sport.

    Any n00b can sit down in front of a match and see what the “point” is. I don’t think anyone can say that about, say, baseball or [handegg] football or golf, where there seems to be a baseline of info you need just to be able to read the action on the ground, let alone “get into it”.

    Basketball kinda trumps all in the obvious action department, though.

  476. 476.

    Tancrudo

    @cmorenc: Perhaps the problem is that soccer actually requires you to watch it. As you say, most of an American football game is really just milling about and hemming and hawing and doing silly dances. Then every few minutes they make sure you’re all ready to watch the ten seconds where they actually play the game.

    Perhaps that ten seconds exhausts the attention span of some, so that they need another commercial break or few minutes of fiddling about and lining up to relax their brains so they can be ready to watch another ten seconds. Baseball is the same – it’s three hours of standing about with brief interludes of something happening.

    A good soccer game, on the other hand, can be exhausting to watch because you can’t look away. The game hardly stops at all, and every touch on the ball could be important. For people with very short attention spans, this would be unwatchable. And for people with bladders of less than forty-five minute capacity.

  477. 477.

    That's Master of Accountancy to You, Pal

    @Tancrudo: I want there to be enough officials to have a chance of getting the calls right. I was told in another thread that the assistant refs don’t have the authority to call fouls. Fine, but the pitch is too damned big for one set of eyes and legs to be able to cover it all. It’s absolutely guaranteed that the ref is going to be too far from the play to make the right call a lot of the time. That’s a serious problem.

  478. 478.

    EDantes

    I had to DVR the game, so I’m really late. But I was amazed at what bad field sense the Dutch have, especially on defense. They got scored on dicking around with the ball near the net instead of just clearing it, which they were chronically doing all game. I don’t know how they got as far as they did. (And they were one of my teams!) Spain definitely deserved this one. It should have been 4-0.

  479. 479.

    Joe

    @burnspbesq: I’d like to think Robben stayed on his feet through a sense of fair play, but going by his previous I doubt it. You can guarantee if that had been inside the penalty box he would have been down like he had been shot.

  480. 480.

    Jason

    @Paula: Yeah, I don’t know any other sport about which, in any discussion, you spend 50% of the time rationalizing its existence and the other 50% dealing with whining about “diving” or some other minor thing.

    The first thing I saw on British TV was cricket and it took me THREE DAYS just to figure out what the hell was happening. Then they were playing one match with a tree on the field. Not around the field, but on the field, and you got four runs if you hit it on the bounce. Ten years later there are still rules I don’t fully understand. Love the game, but I don’t act like it owes me an explanation.

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