I never really understood why states were in this business anyway:
For months, aides to Virginia Gov. Robert F. McDonnell have been meeting behind closed doors with alcohol retailers and wholesalers, public safety officials and faith-based groups to come up with a way to fulfill one of the governor’s most notable campaign promises: privatizing the state’s liquor stores.
The consequences of what they come up with are potentially enormous and would amount to one of the most noticeable changes in the relationship between Virginians and their government in years, if not decades.
For the drinking-age public, a privatized system could mean many more liquor stores, a much wider variety of libations and lower prices. Like beer and wine, liquor could be sold in grocery stores, big-box stores such as Wal-Mart or anywhere else a licensed dealer chooses to locate.
I remember as a kid WV had state stores, but I never really thought about why we once had state stores. Does anyone have the history on why states were involved in this in the first place?
Laertes
Growing up in the Midwest, I’d never seen nor heard of state-run liquor stores until I visited Georgia. When a friend explained it, I could hardly believe it. The whole concept seemed so sad and demeaning.
People will put up with anything if they’re used to it.
22state
It’s an artifact of Prohibition and blue laws.
Some states set these up after Repeal to keep the moonshiners and rum-runners (i.e. organized crime) out of the liquor business and to keep alcohol sales tightly controlled.
Bill H
It’s a control issue. In Utah, you had to have a state-issued permit to purchase alcohol at one point. Wierd.
I was visiting my sister in Salt Lake City one time, some years ago, and people were talking about looking for a new apartment. Part of the discussion was how close to the liquor stare the place was. That, seemingly, was a matter of considerable significance, which I thought was a little odd. I finally asked my sister about it and she laughed, pointed out to me that there were only six liquor stores in the city. They were state owned and were evenly spaced throughout the “wards” and were therefor quite far apart.
henqiguai
No idea what the original rationale was; I’d guess it was all about control and revenue.
New Hampshire has state liquor stores, and when I was out in Washington (edit to add that was Washington, PA not DC), I have a vague recollection of slimming into the state store to buy alcohol and worrying about being hit up by the ABC agents who were apparently lurking just outside every source of liquor in the state.
Mudge
It started after prohibition, a measure to control the evil spirits (see temperance fanatics), now it is money (see PA). Let’s see how VA covers the revenue gap.
beltane
Everyone in New England loves New Hampshire’s state liquor stores. No taxes on liquor there.
In New York, liquor sales are privatized but very restricted, which made buying liquor more inconvenient than in Vermont with it’s state liquor stores. It’s all in how they regulate it.
Chad S
I believe it comes from the temperance movement and Prohibition. At least down home, South Carolina took over the liquor sales industry so that they could shut it down(and secure all the liquor stocks) in case of state or national prohibition and limit where it could be sold no matter what.
Of course during Prohibition, this didn’t stop the mayor of charleston from making a mint running Blind Tigers(illegal bars) with his brother.
Hunter Gathers
from Wiki
Sounds like a remnant from the repeal of prohibition.
beltane
@henqiguai: New Hampshire is an alcohol Mecca. Huge liquor outlets right on the border make it hard to pass through without buying a big bottle of Jose Cuervo or Absolut.
demo woman
@beltane: Ah, but they were open on Sundays. In the late seventies, I lived in CT and NY State had one just over the state line.
Bill E Pilgrim
Remnant of prohibition.
I just read Daniel Okrent’s excellent book on the subject on the Kindle for PC:
http://www.amazon.com/Last-Call-Rise-Prohibition-ebook/dp/B003JTHVHY/ref=tmm_kin_title_0?ie=UTF8&m=AC2OY4L5JUE2O
Quite a parable for our legalization issues now, obviously. Also just interesting history.
stuckinred
Georgia doesn’t have state stores now but they have all kinds of whacky regulations on the private ones.
JR
The text of the 21st Amendment (Section 2) effectively allows the states to establish monopolies over one of the most in-demand products in the world.
Why on earth wouldn’t they get in on the act (especially when it provided a sure-fire way to screw over the bootleggers who’d vexed the states during Prohibition)?
beltane
@demo woman: You could buy alcohol in NY on a Sunday? In NYC, at least, there were never any liquor stores open on Sunday and you couldn’t even buy beer in the supermarket until after 12:00 pm. It was important to make sure people were sober enough to attend Sunday Mass.
MikeJ
There’s a voter initiative to do away with the state stores here in Washington.
I don’t think I actually believe that liquor prices will come down. Either the stores will figure out that people are used to paying more, or the lege will jack up the taxes to cover the budget shortfall. Anyone who thinks prices will drop is a chump.
madmommy
Alabama used to have state stores, and still has quite a few dry counties. So you’ve got to remember to stock up before you cross the county line :) There are still numerous blue laws in place: can’t purchase after a certain hour, and either not at all on Sundays or after 12 noon. It’s only recently that grocery stores began selling beer, but I believe it’s “near-beer” compared to what is available at an actual liquor store.
It’s all so silly and prudish.
The Grand Panjandrum
I wonder why the TP’ers haven’t raged about the government getting out of the liquor business? You would think they would start with an issue where a lot of people across a broad political spectrum agree with them. Easy success, gain momentum … oh, wait … I’m being logical.
bkny
… faith-based groups …
beltane
@The Grand Panjandrum: That’s what’s weird about NH. The land of “Live Free or Die” is a bastion of government-run alcohol distribution.
cleek
i think NC is talking about abolishing their state-run liquor monopoly, too. that’d be nice, if only to allow for more variety. the way it is now, all the ABC stores carry the same items and it their distributor doesn’t carry something, there’s no way to get it.
Leisureguy
When I first moved to Iowa (1964), they had state liquor stores with all the bottles in back. Out front, between the sales counter and the door, there was only a sign: reference number, name of liquor/wine, price.
You had a little booklet your brought with you to the store. You wrote down your order in the booklet, took it to the cash register, and paid while a clerk went among the shelves in the back to get the bottles you bought.
The idea was, I think, that the clerk could review your purchases and cut you off if he thought you were an alcoholic and/or drinking too much. Thus it was claimed a way to protect the public.
The real reason was all the patronage jobs the system provided.
Dave Fud
Another interesting point about the patchwork of laws is that Barry Lynn, who wrote Cornered: The New Monopoly Capitalism and the Economics of Destruction, argues that the various regulations were the only thing that prevented the complete monopolization of alcohol sales in the US, unlike what happened in many other industries.
Anything that prevents monopolies at this point, in my opinion, is a welcome thing in this country.
Tom Levenson
A hearty amen to those lauding NH’s liquor stores. Not on any coherent principle, of course. But that’s where I get my Baker’s by the case, at about a 25% discount to MA prices.
It’s an old trick of course: hide the cost of government by taking the profits from a monopoly on something more or less essential — salt was a favorite commodity for Chinese monarchs, for example (see also the British Raj).
But as a purely self-interested Massachusetts toper, I have to say that I applaud NH’s benevolent imperium.
Karyn
Just a clarification from a New Hampshirite – while there are state liquor stores, liquor is also really loosely regulated in NH, so there is plenty of private sale as well. They sell it pretty much anywhere (grocery stores, convenience stores, etc) and on every day of the week. It was weird moving to MA where things are so over-regulated. The state liquor stores are really for good old fashioned money – NH has no income taxes so the liquor stores help with revenue.
LivingInWingnutHell
Upon moving to Ga, one of the stupidest regulations I discovered was that on Sundays I could go to a restaurant and drink till my heart’s content, but God forbid I wanted to buy a six pack to enjoy in the privacy of my own home. After 12 yrs of being here, I have yet to figure out how that makes any sense whatsoever.
SiubhanDuinne
You still can’t buy alcohol (package stores, grocery stores, big boxes, convenience stores, gas stations) on Sundays anywhere in Georgia. I believe it’s county option or local option as to whether restaurants can serve on Sunday, and if so, what the regulated hours are. Around metro Atlanta, if you go to a lovely 11:00 am Sunday brunch at a restaurant or hotel*, I’m pretty sure you have to wait until noon before you can have a bloody mary or a mimosa. But I don’t go to many lovely brunches, so it might have changed.
I do remember 35-40 years ago when you couldn’t even get a drink in a restaurant on Sundays. Baby steps ….
*Private clubs may be under a different set of regulations.
sings/
Oh there was a little man
And he had a little can
And he used to rush his growler
On a Sunday afternoon
Down behind the old saloon
Y’oughta hear the old man holler:
“No booze today! No booze today!
You can’t get booze on Sunday!
No booze today! No booze today!
You’d better come around on Monday!”
/sings
TOB
@Beltane (14)
Yes to sales in NY State on Sundays; people always crossed the state line from Conn. back then, and still do. (I grew up in and live in Connecticut right on the line!)
When I lived in GA for a while (2001-2005) the rules were as mentioned above; in Fulton County, at least, restaurants had the mimosas cued up ready to go at noon…
That reminds me–I forgot the active ingredient for my G&Ts yesterday, and it’s Sunday! Off to Westchester County…
merrinc
WV doesn’t have state stores anymore? When did this change? Geesh, I guess this is what happens when I don’t go home for years at a time.
We still have state liquor stores in NC. (Beer and wine are available in grocery stores, etc.) A recent big scandal with our local ABC commission prompted some new state legislation. Since all the other problems in the Tarheel state have been solved, it’s good that our legislators are spending time on this important issue.
eemom
All’s I gots to say is, it’s a pain in the ass to do my wine shopping at Total Wine and not be able to pick up a bottle of Tequila there too.
kommrade reproductive vigor
In Maryland we do things by county, just to keep things exciting. Montgomery County stores are the only place to get heavy booze and the county also owns several beer and wine stores. (And if walking past a cop car to buy hootch doesn’t kill ur buzz before you get one, I don’t know what will.) Right next door in Prince Georges’ the booze stores are privately owned and you can get beer & wine in some grocery stores.
And don’t ask me how the hell all of Indiana has laxer booze laws than librul elitist Montgomery County, but I embarrassed myself the first time I went in a Kroger’s “Holy shit, they sell beer in here?”
Raoul
I live in Va- these are the current estimates-you sell ABC for half a billion dollars to build roads. You lose 230 million dollars in yearly revenue that goes to schools and police. Mind you every alcohol purchase is already subject to sales tax so no new revenue. Licensing may bring 100 million dollars, maybe. Of course, the huge alcohol profits would go to partisans who are connected. So tell me again why I should support the privatization? Or let’s put it this way, inbibers may pay a little less so the rest of the population can suffer with worse schools or higher taxes. Again, this is a good idea because…? Libertarianism and privatization are not always the answer.
Steve
@Raoul: 230 million in annual profits or revenue?
AhabTRuler
@kommrade reproductive vigor: Oh, it’s even better than that in MoCo. The county is actually the sole wholesale purchaser and distributor allowed by law, including for beer and wine. So any alcoholic beverage that you consume in the county, whether privately or at an establishment, has passed through the county’s hands. Furthermore, there is no incentive for the county to purchase any brand that doesn’t move quickly, so selection is pretty limited. This is why it’s much better to slip across the border to DC and visit Chevy Chase Wine and Spirits, which alone reveals MoCo to be the booze wasteland that it is.
Of course, even more pathetic is watching three county employees delivering two cases of wine coolers.
Raoul
Profits. BTW- I am imbiber myself and I rather maintain this revenue stream than go through the waste of time headache of trying to raise taxes with a Republican governor.
South of I-10
Here in La, you can buy beer, wine and booze in any grocery store/gas station. There are some blue law remnants, stores can’t sell from 2 am to 6 am during the week and can’t sell before 11 am on Sundays. I have never understood why in other states you can buy beer/wine in grocery stores, but have to go to a package store for booze. Like you can’t achieve an equal level of buzz on either one.
Ripley
New Mexico is a boozer’s dream: hard liquor, wine and beer, all available at the corner convenience store (and any other store – completely privatized) every day of the week, although there are some arcane hours regulations. Quality isn’t necessarily bottom shelf either, although special ordering unique brands is subject to the particular pace of the state. I.e. extremely slow.
PA had the weirdest alcohol reg structure I’ve ever seen: State shops for hard liquor and wine, and ‘bottle shops’ for beer. I threw a party once, needed enough beer for a small group – 18 was enough. Bought 12, took it to my car, went back and bought a 6-pack. The two trips were required by law. How this keeps PA society from a booze-fueled unraveling, I have no idea.
Suzan
Switzerland has much stranger blue laws. Restaurants are open, and can serve alcohol, but grocery stores are closed (except one at the airport). You can rent movies on Sunday so the movie rental places are open but you can’t buy a movie at that store on Sunday. But the oddest part of the law? They unplug all vending machines on Sunday. No Coke for you! Made me more tolerant of Utah’s blue laws.
Jim C
@Leisureguy:
I don’t know at what point Iowa got rid of the “coupon” book, but they did by the time I moved there in 1979. At the time, I thought the State Liquor store was a real oddity, like something out of a communist country.
I was in college in the late 80s when they were phasing them out, and there was a lot of hand-wringing about the “moral” consequences of private liquor stores – a debate soon repeated when the state was considering riverboat casino gambling (again, starting with coupon books to limit legal gambling amounts). In the end, the limits fell by the wayside, and the state’s “moral fiber” endured.
I’d never heard the patronage angle, which is surprising, because it seems like it would have been a natural debate point.
madmommy
@South of I-10:
Yeah, those two trips to the dry county in Alabama every year are quite a contrast to what I’m used to at home. It must vary Parish to Parish, because in Jefferson, Orleans and St. Tammany (the ones I’ve lived in) you can buy spirits any time the store is open.
Then there’s the drive-through daiquiri stores!
tesslibrarian
It is all about the money.
Here in Athens, GA, there’s a long history of prohibition going in and out of favor. The consensus in the 1880s was that the bars were out of control, so the citizens voted for total prohibition. That lasted about 3-4 years, at which point it was deemed a failure–expensive for the city and county to enforce, no more liquor license cash coming into budget coffers, and lots of people getting sick or dying from moonshine, which was everywhere.
In 1891, a narrow vote brought in the Dispensary system–that way, the city could control when liquor was sold (sun-up to sun-down), how much was sold to an individual (there were limits), and “control quality.” The last point is especially funny to read about–as the responsible leaders of the community “tested” brands for quality before opening the Dispensary. The huge quantities of cash that it earned for the city is probably why our infrastructure is in such good condition today; the county often complained their schools weren’t getting their fair share.
There was always a temperance movement, with their own papers, that blame the citizens for every alcoholic-abandoned family in the region, but then state prohibition went into effect in 1908, and that was that.
During the time of the Dispensary, blind tigers still made/distributed liquor (sometimes their own; sometimes stolen from drug stores), and you could still get it through a doctor’s prescription. Even after prohibition went into effect, whiskey for “nervousness,” available via mail order from “doctors” (plus all the other “medicinal” products, especially those aimed at women) filled most of the advertisement space in the newspapers.
ETA: sorry this is so long–I’ve spent a lot of time reading newspapers about the dispensary laws here in town for work projects.
b-psycho
@LivingInWingnutHell: I was in GA for 6 years & no, it doesn’t make sense. I recall once some local politician there mumbling something about “time management”. Considering the rush to the liquor stores on Friday & Saturday nights, I don’t think that means what he thought it did.
I remember Sundays where some neighbors would go to whoever had extra booze stocked up & offer them money for it. Figures that bootlegging would be the local trade in bible-thumper country…
Cheryl from Maryland
@AhabTRuler: Nothing ever happens because the whacked out laws are supposed to protect the children. And MoCo screws over the restaurants because the county controls all liquor sales. Talk to the servers at Mannequin Pis (in Olney) about the stress of getting good Belgium beer. Thank god they persevered to get Delirium Tremens Dark.
That being said, good luck VA in selling the stores for maybe 500 million once and having that replace 200 million annually.
Nutella
The south (and Utah and Kansas, too) used to not permit the sale of liquor by the drink so you could, with many restrictions, buy a fifth of liquor but you couldn’t go to a bar and buy one drink.
Also not true any more, but it used to be that the Virginia state liquor stores could not classify sake as wine (because it’s made from rice!) or as liquor (because it’s rice wine) so they didn’t carry it anywhere in the state.
South of I-10
@madmommy: It varies by parish. Our bars close at 2 am – yours never close! I am headed over to your neck of the woods in a few weeks for a friend’s 40th birthday party. We are planning an afternoon tour of the Abita brewery, so the party that evening should be interesting!
Davis X. Machina
I didn’t even know there were regulations. I was living in Atlanta — really DeKalb Co. (Briarcliff and Claremont) when I saw my first drive-through window at a liquor store. With a big don’t-drink-and-drive poster.
Triscula
We disagree here, John. I am fine with the state run stores. It’s a source of revenue for our state, a source of state jobs (with benefits) for workers and it prevents the proliferation of liquor stores being concentrated in poorer neighborhoods. I’ve lived in VA most of my life but I also had the opportunity to live in the DC area (in MD) for four years. Liquor stores are privately owned in MD (or were at that time) and tended to pop up in poorer neighborhoods, with their brethren – the pawn shop and the checks-cashed-no-ID shop. I don’t see how the public benefits from this arrangement.
Xecky Gilchrist
Here in Utah I think it’s that the Mormon folks would rather the state be completely dry, but they recognize that if it were all that sweet, sweet tourism money would dry up. So they just keep the state stores and the labyrinthine restaurant / club laws in place to preserve a certain minimum level of harrassment that drinkers have to undergo.
madmommy
@South of I-10:
Mmmm…Abita! In all it’s incarnations!! From Strawberry Ale to Restoration Pale to Amber to Purple Haze to Turbo Dog-delish!
The farther you get from NOLA, the more like the Buckle of the Bible Belt things get. Once you get to Shreveport you might as well be in Oklahoma or Texas. Generally speaking, North Louisiana looks down on NOLA as nothing more than a den of sin and iniquity.
TOB
@Davis X. (44)
Aha! You’re talking about the Pitch N’ Putt, I believe! That place is great… the (possibly legendary) story there was they gave it that name so all the Emory kids could put their fifths of vodka and cases of beer on the parents’ credit card, and tell them they’d had a wholesome weekend out at the driving range…
mellowjohn
my first experience with state-run liquor stores was during a visit to my uncle in tulsa in 1960. one of the laws controlling the sale of liquor was that 14 year old me had to wait in the car. oklahoma had just recently repealed their version of prohibition, and my uncle said that the “wets” were really responsible for repeal taking so long, because you could buy from bootleggers more cheaply. and they delivered.
that said, i was just at a costco in chicago and had to wait until after 11 to buy a couple bottles of wine because it was sunday, so i guess strange laws still exist all over.
Sloegin
Money money money. State control gives you two sources of revenue.
1. Taxation
2. Monopoly pricing power
In Wa St. There are two competing initiatives this fall to kill state liquor stores, one put forth by Costco, which surprisingly enough… heavily favors large stores over smaller ‘Mom and Pop’ retailers, and
One put forth by the current liquor distributors supplying the state stores… favoring the current liquor distributor system.
So Washington voters get 3 unsavory choices this fall. Vote for the current system, vote for Costco, or vote for the mob running the liquor distribution in the state.
TOB
Also, for what it’s worth, I was once told by a liquor store owner that the trade generally opposed Sunday retail sales in states where they were prohibited (this was in Massachusetts back before they changed the law, realizing how much tax revenue they were losing to neighbors like NY and NH) because they weren’t likely to make more money in total sales than they would lose in the outlay for an extra delivery day, keeping the lights on in the stores and the reefer trucks running in the summer, etc. I’ve worked in the business myself (including on the distribution end, though my paychecks came from on-premise sales, not stores), and tend to agree with that point. After all, most people (see my comment @ 27… d’oh!) stock up before Sunday–not many of us say to ourselves, “You know, I really would drink an extra bottle of wine a week if only that pesky state law didn’t keep the stores closed on Sundays!”
On consideration, this probably depends on your state. In the Northeast, as mentioned above, people might well just run across the line. In those big boxy states you have out west, I’m guessing folks plan ahead.
South of I-10
@madmommy: We all know anything north of Alexandria is S. Arkansas.
QuaintIrene
Roy Blount Jr. wrote a funny story about growing up in a ‘dry’ Georgian county. Washing your hair with beer was suddenly the rage and his teenage sister was determined to try it. His mom would do pretty much anything for her kids, so she took a bus over the county line to a package store, dragging Roy with her. At the liquor store, and on the bus ride back she made sure everybody knew, ‘Oh, this isn’t for drinking. We’re teetotallers. It’s for my daughter’s hair. This isn’t for…”
Teenage Roy was appalled. He wrote ‘My sister and I agreed that there was nothing we could do drunk, that was more embarssing what my Mom could so sober.”
Bill Murray
Oneof the weirder laws is in SC, where the liquor stores ( which have to have a separate entrance from beer/wine) are closed on election day. I guess it’s because they want everyone sober to vote. But looking at the yahoos they keep electing, you’d think a fifth would be necessary prior to voting.
TOB
Right, South Carolina! There’s a good one. What was the explanation given for drinking out of those little bottles, again? Surely it couldn’t be accurate measures, as the UK seems to handle that just fine with their (admittedly ridiculous) pub spirit measure system.
Brachiator
@Bill E Pilgrim:
I agree that this is great and essential reading. A very well-written book as well.
Are photos produced well in the Kindle version? Were there any formatting issue?
If John Cole hasn’t dumped his iPad, he might consider getting this book (if available) via ibooks or Kindle for iPad.
Edit to add: I understand that Ken Burns is doing a documentary on Prohibition. Okrent will be one of the talking head authorities used.
CaffinatedOne
Raoul’s right. I live in VA as well and it’s stupid to give up a source of long term, stable, revenue for a one time cash-out. I’m sure that it’s handy for McDonell since he gets to spend the sale money and doesn’t have to deal with the new hole in the budget longer term given the one term limit for a governor here.
Woodrowfan
There have already been some good comments of why the ABC stores. It added a measure of control–a way to shutout bootleggers. Also, it was a way to try and prevent the old-time saloons and the popular mail order whiskey businesses that existed pre-pro.
Prohibition ended during the Depression and a big reason was tax dollars. States and local governments were starved for money and tax dollars were very seductive.
Moreover, a state ABC system had worked in various European countries and was thought to help control excess drinking as it allowed for hard liquors to be rationed.
And yeah, as a VA resident I agree. McDonnell is an idiot.
Bill E Pilgrim
@Brachiator: I take it back, I just looked at remembered that book in particular I had to download from Barnes and Noble in an eBook edition, because they didn’t have a Kindle edition at Amazon. Which is strange because I just linked to one.
Maybe they released it since then, because I remember distinctly not being able to get it at Amazon and it took some doing to find where I could download it.
In any case, no photos at all in the eBook version. I’d never tried ebook reader before, it’s– functional.
Woodrowfan
@Bill Murray:
Laws like that were passed in part to stop local political machines from buying votes with drinks.
James Hare
Problem I see right off the bat is this is a one-time revenue enhancer. After the sales the estimates are that the $220 million in revenues Virginia got through the stores will at most be $150 million in tax dollars. That’s envisioning going from 332 liquor stores to 800 liquor stores. I don’t see that massive expansion in liquor sales coming at no social cost, so I think the overall losses will be far more than the $70 million in tax revenues each year.
SteveinSC
@merrinc: @Triscula: I lived a long time in Virginia, married a Tar Heel and was born in, and returned to SC. Traveling amongst these three states makes me feel for the Virginia drinker. Virginia’s ABC stores were cheap, cheap, cheap compared to NC’s pitiful excuses for state stores and the 25 percent+ private store over-charging in South Carolina. Virginia makes a lot of money from the ABC stores and instead of raising the tax on hooked cigarette smokers like here, the commonweath income is spread around a bit better than SC. Virgina owns, or used to own, the RF&P railroad and something else, maybe a coal mine. I think these were holdovers from the time, oddly enough, that VA got involved with joint public-private ventures. (During the Civil War, the Confederate Govenment frequently ran their own blockade runners and had interests in others.) Go figure the South’s rabid “keep government out of business.”
Origuy
I was just in British Columbia, which has province-run liquor stores. Apparently Ontario does, too. You can only get non-alcoholic beer at the grocery store.
Prohibition in Canada was never at the federal level. Each province started and stopped it at different times.
Jager
Went to Kentucky to arrange the sale of some property. The guy I was doing business lived in a little dry town about 20 miles from Hazzard. After we finished our transaction we drove to Hazzard for a late lunch. We had a couple of drinks, ate and drove the 20 miles back. He said to me “yall ought to drive this road some Sat-a-day night, it’s laake a damn demolition derby!”
oldswede
As I understand the NY laws, a package store (interesting euphemism) can be open six days a week. Their choice. So, to sell on Sunday, they must close some other day.
Here in Connecticut, we are still shaking off the old Blue laws. One of my favorites, in effect until about forty years ago, prohibited women from being within six feet of the bar in a restaurant.
I remember being in Virginia when customers were not allowed to purchase a drink at the bar and carry it themselves to a table. A waitperson had to do the carrying.
When my brother-in-law lived in way-northern Vermont, I learned that you would realize that you were in a town when you could see a general store with a gas pump and a taxidermist shop. The general store would often have an ABC section in the back, where liquor could be purchased. During hunting season, there would be pick-up trucks carrying deer carcasses and dripping blood parked outside while men with side-arms and rifles bought liquor and supplies in the store. Quite a shock to a Connecticut-raised urbanite.
oldswede
Bruce (formerly Steve S.)
Washington stater here. We will have an initiative coming up that would privatize our state-run liquor stores. I’m against it. Our liquor stores (depending on the individual store, there’s one easy staggering distance from my house) have very good selection, though heavily taxed. My experience in grocery stores in, say, California is that you have one aisle devoted to hard liquor and it’s all Seagram’s and Bacardi and the like, and that my local Washington state store has many more premium, obscure, and specialty items on the shelf. Furthermore, I’ve never met an employee who wasn’t happy to special order something for you. What I fear is that if we privatize we’ll get a few boutique stores in the larger cities and the rest will just be purveyors of mass market items. Count my vote for Creeping Kenyan Socialism in the hard liquor business.
TOB
One of my favorites has always been the law that requires that purchases of demon rum and its ilk be cleverly disguised in a brown paper bag. I remember the first time I (as a product of the Northeastern Blue Law regime) encountered the alternative elsewhere–out West, I think, and realized, ‘yeah, what’s that bag for, anyway?’
Maybe the impressionable children out there all think we’re carrying bottled water out of those special ‘package stores’…
JR
@kommrade reproductive vigor: Even weirder: some of the grocery stores in Montgomery County do sell beer and wine. I don’t know how they swung it, but the Korean Korner supermarket on Randolph Rd and Viers Mill has a beer aisle.
TOB
What Mr. Goldman said; if I remember correctly from my days going to school in New Hampshire, they actually had dedicated exits off the highway, just across the state line, serving only the state store, selling liquor and lottery tickets. It was not a small store.
oldswede
What TOB said.
We just returned from a trip to Maine, passing through NH, and those big signs on the Interstate, directing travelers to the state store near the border are impossible to miss.
oldswede
Tyro
States are in this business because it generates revenue. You want to have the state make money through alcohol sales or you want higher taxes?
The governor is doing this at a highly idiotic moment in time: when the state needs all the revenue it can get and when asset prices are very low. It would be better to sell off public assets during boom times when they could command a premium price.
Jim
Interesting question, John. In Canada, the provincial liquor commissions (such as the Liquor Control Board of Ontario) were a first step away from prohibition. Beverage alcohol was allowed, but controlled by the provincial government. I remember in the 1960’s my father going into the “dry goods” store, filling out a paper slip and handing it to the man at the counter, who would return from the storeroom (no liquor was actually in sight) with a 26 oz bottle of Chateau Gai Medium Dry Red (or, as the form said #745B) — perhaps the best example of why one should not make wine from Concord grapes.
In some provinces the stores still hold a near monopoly on liquor sales (apart from beer). Vintners can sell their own stuff in their private stores, and there are dealers who will import that case of Findlater’s Dry Fly Sherry that you just can’t live without, but the vast majority of booze in Ontario comes from the LCBO.
Why bother? There are several reasons. First, service. Consistent with the public utility model, prices are the same across the province. This is a considerable advantage if you live in a small community hundreds of miles from nowhere. Everything else in town has the added transportation cost, but the LCBO has the same price in Sioux Lookout as it has in downtown Toronto. Although your local store may not have the selection of the big city, you can order the 2008 Argento Malbec (or any of the 22k items in stock) and it will be delivered to your community — for the same price everyone else pays.
Secondly, safety. When people periodically try to abolish the Government Dairy, the first response of its defenders is the number of underage customers (140-150k) who are turned away each year. It doesn’t eliminate underage drinking, but it helps. This is a lot easier if your survival is not dependent on taking a making the nut each and every week, and if there is some control over the people doing the screening and so on.
Thirdly, clout. Where liquor stores have been privatized, there are a lot more liquor stores, but selection has decreased and price has increased. There is a great economic lever in size. The LCBO is largest single purchaser of alcohol in the world. They get pretty good deals.
They can also do some pushing on behalf of the government of Ontario. There was a funny story some years ago about the EU ban on Canadian ice wine. The French, who can make ice wine about one year in ten (it requires grapes to freeze on the vine), were blocking the Canadian product, which is made every year. A delegation was sent to discuss it. It included the chairman of the LCBO. Technically, he has nothing to do with exports. But the single biggest buyer of French wine in the world walked in — and you both know that he can fill his shelves from California, Chile, Australia and South Africa without buying anything from France — well, no one said how it happened, but suddenly you can buy Canadian ice wine in the EU.
It also turns over about $1.4B in profits (separate from taxes, excise duties, etc.) to the province every year.
Frankly, it works so well that I’m surprised all jurisdictions don’t do it. But as we know, success and ideology are not always in lockstep.
Jim
@Bill Murray: We havethe same law in Canada. Liquor stores are closed on election day to keep politicians from buying votes with booze. Why? Because when liquor stores were open on elections days, THEY DID!
Brachiator
@efgoldman:
Not sure about San Antonio, but there are other places in Texas that sell “memberships” so that they can serve liquor.
doppich
God forbid that government be involved in a profitable venture. (That would be the Bob McDonnell-Pat Robertson God, of course.)
phillygirl
Pennsylvania is a leader here. Our monumentally stupid system has even managed to lose money for the state during most of its awful life. The pols complain about the intransigent state employee unions, but I think the real beneficiary is the liquor and wine distributors, who get to sell to the entire state in a single contract, making truckloads of money without doing any actual work. The pols don’t complain about them, of course, because they are such generous campaign contributors. Even wackier, though, is the regulation of beer sales: To discourage drinking, PA allows package sales only by bars (where a six-pack of bilgewater will set you back $10 or $12) and beer distributors, where you cannot buy in quantities smaller than a case.
xjmueller
My wife’s from Tennessee where you can’t buy beer in the liquor store and you can’t buy liquor anywhere else. Sunday, liquor stores were closed. Imagine her surprise when she moved to Chicago and on Sunday, at the local supermarket, you could buy beer, booze, wine, and whatever. It’s how we shopped for a picnic or family get together. I’m in VA now and looking forward to those days again. The problem is how the state will replace the lost revenue. The state has become dependent on the liquor tax. Yes, VA has a drinking problem…
Honus
@merrinc: It was about 20 years ago WV did away with all the state stores. What I’ve always wondered about is why you can buy full strength beer now (we used to go to Ohio to get Rolling Rock because it was illegal in WV) and when they did away with “club liquor” (you use to have to pay a dollar to get a “club membership” in a bar to get a liquor drink) They never changed these laws to my knowledge (and I’m a member of the WV bar, no pun intended) but you can buy any kind of beer now and get liquor by the drink.
@Raoul: You haven’t lived in VA long if you think they’re going to increase taxes to make up the shortfall. The republicans will just let the schools and roads keep deteriorating. McDonnell’s other brilliant campaign promise is to reopen the interstate rest areas using prisoners for labor. What could go wrong with that?
Honus
@xjmueller: Don’t count on being able to buy liquor on sunday just because they privatize the stores. I don’t think you can buy on sunday in WV now, or South Carolina, either.
Honus
@Tyro: McDonnell’s privatization scheme has another feature, based on the fact that he can’t succeed himself. The state will get a one-time windfall for selling the stores and licenses, probably spread over the second half of his term, and when the revenue loss hits, McDonnell will conveniently be out of office, and his successor will have to deal with the shortfall.
Honus
@Tyro: McDonnell’s privatization scheme has another feature, based on the fact that he can’t succeed himself. The state will get a one-time windfall for selling the stores and licenses, probably spread over the second half of his term, and when the revenue loss hits, McDonnell will conveniently be out of office, and his successor will have to deal with the shortfall.
hamletta
@Brachiator: Tennessee goes county-by-county, and when I was in college one county southeast of Nashville (Rutherford), they had that private-club setup.
Even in cosmopolitan Nashville, you can’t buy any alcohol before noon on Sundays. Back in my bartending days, I worked at a couple of restaurants with big brunches. At one place, a new backwaiter, in an attempt to expedite the flow of champagne at the crack of noon, removed all the little wire cork holder-on-ers in a big tub of champagne bottles. It was like the Fourth Of July!
Raoul
Honus – that’s my point- of course taxes will not be raised.
oldswede
@Honus & Brachiator –
In Connecticut, there is no retail sale of wine, beer or liquor permitted in any stores on Sunday, period. None.
Bars and restaurants can serve alcoholic beverages. The Connecticut package store owners association has often argued for Sunday sales, claiming that sales and tax revenue are being lost to the three surrounding states, all of whom offer some take-out liquor sales on Sunday. Hasn’t worked yet.
Until fairly recently, this service could begin at 11 am and would have to stop at 9 pm. It was extended to 11 pm and now it has gone to 1 am. Years in gestation.
Most nights, bars close at 1 am and 2 am on Fri & Sat. Hardly time to get a party going.
oldswede
oldswede
My previous post is a little garbled because of the idiotic timer on the editing. I was trying to check some data before completing the post but it locked me out.
Anyway, the service I mention that begins at 11 am is Sunday sales of liquor in a restaurant or bar.
oldswede
Nylund
@beltane: I remember having a dinner party on a Sunday evening in NYC and needing to buy wine for it, and having to take the PATH train to New Jersey. I got out of the station and a local hobo directly me to the closest place to buy liquor.
I remembered thinking, “What a dumb law. It did not stop me from buying alcohol. All it did was make me waste time and give money to another state.”
Batocchio
Blue laws, control and money.
dhd
I second @75’s comments on the Canadian experience. A decade or so after privatization, there’s a liquor store on every corner (actually, make that in every strip mall) in Calgary, but the prices are higher than they are in Ontario and the number of stores with a decent selection is about the same. The other funny thing I just learned about the LCBO is that they keep their beer prices deliberately low, subsidizing them with the “minimum price” policy on hard liquor, so as to discourage hard liquor consumption. Which is why you can buy a bottle of Belgian beer for $3 in Ontario that costs $10 in the US…
Pennsylvania (where I now live) state stores have gotten a lot better over the last 5 years or so, but most of them still have lousy selection and we’re still paying the 18% “Johnstown Flood Emergency Tax” on liquor. I think that management and taxes make a much bigger difference than state or private ownership – in a lot of US states, the liquor monopoly is a source of patronage appointments and as such doesn’t really serve its customers.
befuggled
@dhd: Exactly one company distributes liquor in Alberta, which is presumably why prices are higher.
While prices on Belgians are low, overall selection at the LCBO is poor and prices on microbrews is higher than I paid when I lived in Wisconsin. For instance, a six pack of any of the Mill Street or Creemore beers will cost as much as a six pack of Leffe or Affligem.
I can live with the prices, but the selection drives me crazy.
lou
When I moved from Florida to DC, I thought I’d gone to beer and wine heaven. One of the few things DC does right is not mandate a middleman between liquor stores, mom and pop shops and sellers of booze. So you get an amazing array of beers and wines you can’t get elsewhere.
The Florida legislature, on the other hand, is in the pocket of Anheuser Busch and severely restricts the sale of beer that doesn’t belong to a major beer company. Wine selection is pretty horrible, too. (though you can get the stuff in grocery stores).
For instance, the FL legislature about 10-12 years ago restricted bottle sizes for beer. it had to come in 16 ounce or 12 ounce bottles, iirc, and the bottles had to be prescribed sizes. Forget Belgian or Trappist ale ever making a showing in the Sunshine state stores.