Former Goldman Sachs employee, TARP overseer, and treasury employee during the Bush administration turned investment banker takes to the Washington Post to lecture the little people on entitlement spending:
The fiscal crisis in Europe has awoken Americans to the enormous challenge we face from entitlements. The promises our country has made over the past few decades, combined with changing demographics and rising costs, have put us on a path to national insolvency. Unless we control our deficits we will face stifled economic growth and impaired standards of living, perhaps even as soon as a few years from now. Most economists agree that raising taxes cannot pay for these commitments; entitlements must be cut. Before we can embrace any reform proposals, however, we must understand the influence our culture has on our decision making.
A nation’s culture can have a profound impact on its competitiveness. Our shared beliefs in free markets, fair play and the rule of law inspire entrepreneurs to pursue their dreams and give global investors confidence to bring their money to America. These beliefs have passed from citizen to citizen, from generation to generation. They have strengthened over our history and brought an important competitive edge to the United States.
Our belief in free markets is founded on the idea that each individual acting in his or her self-interest will lead to a superior outcome for the whole. The financial crisis has reminded us that free markets are not perfect — but they do allocate capital better than any other system we know. A “me first” mentality usually makes markets more efficient.
But this “me first” mentality can also lead to shortsighted political decision making. Most Americans agree that we need more energy from clean sources, such as wind power — until someone proposes installing a transmission line near their homes. Most people are against earmarks — unless it is their representative scoring money for their district.
Got it? The genius of the free market is that it only really works when those at the top have a “me first” attitude and give themselves massive bonuses while railing against the inheritance tax and paying nothing in taxes because of our current tax system (capital gains). When you folks look forward to 300 bucks every couple of weeks from the social security you paid into your entire lives that was spent financing tax cuts for the rich and foriegn wars, then you’re just being selfish.
I seriously hope Neel Kashkari chokes to death on caviar.
Emma
My father the uberconservative is shocked by what he considers the passivity of the American working class. He says that anywhere else in the world if the government had pulled the kinds of things they have on the workers there would be massive demonstrations and riots in the streets.
comrade scott's agenda of rage
But, but, but, somebody has to make sacrifices so the
peoplecorporations won’t suffer.Pangloss
The difference between this recession and the Great Depression is that nobody in 1934 would have dared written this kind of crap for fear of having their limbs ripped from their body by an angry mob.
Corner Stone
Shorter Kash N Kari:
The Bond Vigilantes are coming for us! Austerity now!
Corner Stone
I remember watching that fluff piece on Kash N Kari not long ago, where he was in his mountain retreat in the snow. He was serene and away from the grind of high finance and important government decisions.
I hate that fucking guy.
Derelict
I, for one, applaud the over-the-top avarice evinced in such columns. Indeed, I wish such hectoring appeared in every newspaper across the country at least twice a week.
Maybe then the average working- and middle-class voters would realize how they’re being played for fools by the Republicans, and how capitalism as currently practiced IS NOT THEIR FRIEND.
Zoogz
Our belief in free markets is founded on the idea that each individual acting in his or her self-interest will lead to a superior outcome for the whole. The financial crisis has reminded us that free markets are not perfect—but they do allocate capital better than any other system we know.
I do not know how people can write those words with a straight face, and how other people can take those words at face value without a moment’s hesitation or doubt.
Zifnab
Ah, the often distinguished and highly praised “Most economists”. Did they ever win a Nobel once for their collective work on “The DOW will never go down again” and “Buy Bear Sterns stock, they clearly know what they’re doing”?
Perchance, was he watching CNBC or just Jim Cramer?
JCT
@Emma:
I was just about to point out that this guy should keep talking — in a more perfect world he would find himself about 10 inches shorter after a quick trip to the guillotine.
Then again maybe he should just go DIAF. He won’t be missed.
My goodness, can’t the democrats capitalize on this now endless stream of pissing on the have-nots by these “masters of the universe?”
jl
Be very suspicious when some one talks about ‘entitlements’ without distinguishing social security, from the federal and state health programs Medicare and Medicaid.
Social security is a very solid program. Even if the long term funding shortfall that will appear in 30 to 40 years is not fixed, the 75% of scheduled benefits you will receive will be worth more in real terms than social security payments that are received now. Can you get that guarantee from a stock market 401K? (Ans: no). Demographers and economists have shown that tinkering (far short of big increases in retirement age across the board, even physical laborers) can fix this long term shortfall.
The feds also have borrowed on social security to fund various wars and supply side experiments that have failed. Odd that this banker who talks about self reliance should imply, however indirectly, that these loans taken from one of the soundest and most successful and reliable social insurance programs should not be paid back.
As for Medicare and Medicaid, its main problem is increasing health care expenditure for mediocre to poor health care outcomes, partly due to a malfunctioning private health insurance market. We can believe in free markets all we want, but we have empirical evidence and theoretical reasons to believe that without proper regulation, private health insurance markets do not work.
This article is boilerplate propaganda to buffalo gullible people. Not worth the trees or electrons killed, or time it takes to read it.
That's Master of Accountancy to You, Pal
Why are American executives today so much lazier than the ones 50 years ago? Why does it take ten times as much money to motivate them to get off their ass and go to work?
This is the big problem in America: lazy, unmotivated members of the upper class. They should suck it up and work for the kind of money their forefathers did.
Sentient Puddle
Besides the whole “greed works, except when it doesn’t” theme, this part caught my eye:
Total fail on condition #1 (and #2, though we can stop checking on the first fail). What’s the point of even writing this article if you don’t even believe that you should take your own advice at the moment?
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@Pangloss: By 1934 the problems had been going on for nearly five years.
Sue
That’s a mighty furrin’-soundin’ name, folks. He can’t be here legally.
SteveinSC
@Sue: Someone check his papers.
Comrade Javamanphil
Unless he killed that caviar himself, he’d better not eat any of it. That would violate the code of the Street.
AnotherBruce
Maybe the Tea Party will become outraged and organize a mass demonstration on this guy’s front lawn.
Bulworth
Shorter Paulson: the financial crisis showed us that capitalism isn’t perfect but entitlements, which didn’t have anything to do with the financial crisis, are worse.
AnotherBruce
Or maybe not.
Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle
@Bulworth: Did you know read who wrote that? It wasn’t Paulson.
Quiddity
1) That dude got ripped in a Huffington Post article.
2) Anybody who buys Kashkari’s:
deserves the consequences.
3) He says that we’ve sacrificed once to bail out the banks and now it’s time to sacrifice a second time because otherwise the deficits will impair our standard of living. But sacrificing impairs your standard of living, so that doesn’t really change anything.
4) I remember that guy from the TARP days and, at the time, he seemed kind of okay. Boy was I wrong. All those fellows are snakes.
Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle
You are being much too kind to that asshole.
David Brooks
By “we” he means himself. Apparently he hasn’t looked out of his mansion recently and noticed that the few years from how have arrived already for the less-pampered.
MattR
What is amazing to me is the weight that conservatives give to the beliefs of “most economists” compared to that of “most climatogists” or “most biologists”.
Bulworth
@Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle: Sorry, I get all the Goldman Sachs guys confused.
jl
Looks like massive government bailouts and special treatment for particular companies in a financial panic (that saves their asses from bankruptcy and jail) can have profound impact on bankers’ culture of intellectual honesty.
Butch
Of course we can pay for endless wars and trillion dollar bailouts, but Social Security is just too expensive.
Southern Beale
Most Americans agree that we need more energy from clean sources, such as wind power—until someone proposes installing a transmission line near their homes…
Umm .. why can’t the power generated by wind and solar be transmitted on regular power lines? When we installed the grid-fed solar system on our roof no one needed to install new power lines.
Just sayin’
FormerSwingVoter
Why do people talk about “free markets” and “self-interest” as if they’re founding American principles? During the Depression, we were the ones dragging “laissez-faire” Europe kicking and screaming to the concept of a regulated economy. Shit, the whole idea of a regulated but capitalist economy was called “the American system” for decades.
Note to all would-be historians: the Constitution isn’t a one-line document that reads “Whatever the hell Conservatives say they want at this moment is what’s in here right now”. Stop pretending that it is, or I will repeatedly hit you in the groin with a hammer.
Davis X. Machina
@Emma:
We are the Saudi Arabia of Bright Shiny Things — world’s largest producer, with the world’s largest proven reserves. Conditions will have to get much worse just to overcome that. Then there’s the commodity fetishism, the racism, and a dozen other things to get over.
I figure we’d need U6 north of 40% and U3 north of 18% to even rock the boat.
Tom Hilton
@jl:
This. There is no entitlements crisis; there is a Medicare Medicaid crisis. And actually, there is no Medicare/Medicaid crisis; there is a general healthcare cost crisis. Which, incidentally, this administration and Congress took the first steps to address.
Also be suspicious when people assume that cutting benefits is the only way to cut costs. Some people really get off on the idea of benefit cuts for people who aren’t as well off; if they aren’t even trying to imagine another way, you can be pretty sure it’s nothing but austerity porn.
MattR
@FormerSwingVoter:
Something like this, perhaps?
Corner Stone
@Bulworth:
And in all actuality, Paulson most likely had his hand up Kash N Kari’s ass when he wrote this.
Sentient Puddle
@FormerSwingVoter: Shit, I’ve heard Republicans spout off about how capitalism was promoted in the Bible.
Bob L
WTF? Is this some kind of parody. I mean please tell me there isn’t a Serious Person(tm) with the name that sounds like “cash’n carry”. PIMCO investors,..? LOL
FormerSwingVoter
@MattR:
What’s particularly galling is that this isn’t what most economists say. We could easily balance the budget for Social Security for the next 75 years by removing the cap on payroll tax while also removing the cap on Social Security benefits (so those rich shmucks can get an increase in their SocSec benefits checks for their trouble). He’s literally making shit up because he has no fucking clue what he’s talking about.
We need to stop assuming that anything a conservative says is based in anything like fact. Their talking points, all of them, are completely divorced from reality at this point.
redoubt
@Zoogz: These guys’ anthem is Freimarkt, Freimarkt uber alles.
How they can take these words at face value? “Moral justification for selfishness.”
Omnes Omnibus
@Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle:
Rancid caviar?
JGabriel
New definition of ASSHOLE: (noun) 1. Someone who wants to cut Social Security; 2. the opening at the end of the digestive tract from which shit is evacuated by the body.
.
boredwiththeusa
The U.S. cannot be “insolvent.” The man does not understand basic monetary theory. You can print money. Thus, insolvency is a non-issue. Inflation, well, that is another story, one to be told when all the major signs are not pointing towards DEFLATION. The stupid, it hurts.
jl
My speculation about why Kashkari would humilate himself in public by writing such drivel is that the bankers will need more money, either bailout, or infusion of private funds from social security privatization, to keep their recent success going.
I think the bet that was made in the recovery plan was that it was essentially a liquidity crisis. Just a cash flow problem. The housing market got a little ahead of what people could pay.
If we could ease the financial system over the hypothesized liquidity crisis, the only costs people (especially important rich people) would have to bear would be the cost of waiting a few years for the expected payments, which would be painful, but not something horribly disruptive.
People from Nobel Memorial Prize winner Stiglitz, to hippie blogger Atrios noted that the basic math did not work out. There was not enough income among the little people to buy all those houses at the expected price, and the waiting time might well be forever.
The economy has not caught up, housing market still has year to two years to work out price falls and excess supply. Lotsa bad debts that have been papered over may start to show through again.
Important people need more money. Maybe soon. Where will it come from?
Kryptik
How the hell do you compete when the media gives all credibility and credence to folks whose formative philosophers were Gordon Gecko and Ayn Rand?
Ash Can
Apart from the urge to hang this asshole from the nearest lamppost by his Brooks Brothers tie that one gets from reading this, the fact is, this article is poorly written by someone who’s evidently not all that bright. It’s nothing more than a variety of econ 101 theories strung together into something that reads like an undergrad essay exam. There’s no original thought or insight here. He may think he’s suggesting solutions to the problems he whines about, but since he hasn’t made any effort to adapt those “solutions” to the specific circumstances of the current real-life world, they come off as not being solutions at all, but shallow complaints. Reading this article is really, truly a waste of time, and if he received any payment for it the Wipe-o wasted (more of) its money.
TuiMel
@redoubt:
or: freien Markt macht frei
Karmakin
Pretty much.
The reality is that the FIRST step, is if he was really serious about all this, would be to encourage all large employers to give an immediate, significant raise to all lower wage employees. A short-term hit on profits for a long-term return to growth and prosperity.
But the eventual goal of these assholes is to bring back the company town. Everything comes back to that idea. A return to legalized slavery.
maus
Never do nothin’ for Americans, they’ll just spend all their entitlement money on alcohol and big-screen TVs.
@Sentient Puddle: Predestination, duh.
MattR
@FormerSwingVoter: You are completely correct. I did not mean to concede that point. And I say that as someone who can technically call themselves an economist, though I have never actually used that degree professionally.
@Ash Can: We don’t do lynching here. Instead let’s just beat him to death.
FormerSwingVoter
@MattR:
Like that. Except over and over and over again. Until they cry.
GregB
Sadly enough, there won’t be an epiphany with these amoral money hoarders until the unwashed masses are climbing over the fences of their gated communities with pitchforks in their hands.
It’s to effing far gone.
Svensker
@MattR:
Win.
JGabriel
@Omnes Omnibus:
How about poisoned garum?
Garum (recipe via MFK Fisher):
.
Sentient Puddle
@maus: Gah, I didn’t even think about predestination. OK, so that belief is older than America itself. Lovely.
daveNYC
Misery index in the 25% range would probably do it too. The problem is that I don’t think people will get riled up in the way I would want them to get riled up.
evinfuilt
@That’s Master of Accountancy to You, Pal:
Thank you, that made my day.
Rick Massimo
Who is this “our” you keep talking about? MY belief in free markets is founded on the idea that they need government regulation just like a mostly peaceful, law-abiding popuolace still needs a police force.
See Depression, Great, and Deal, New. Then Up, Shut the Fuck.
sukabi
@Bulworth: it’s alright, all assholes pretty much act, smell and look alike.
Bob L
@Quiddity: Thanks for the link.
Surprise Surprise, Kash’N’Karry’s PIMCO is heavily exposed to the mortgage market and wants to the government to bail it out. It’s it possible for conservatives to be more blatantly absurd.
sc kitty
a link from Ezra Klein,
The Economy: Why It Sucks
toujoursdan
Again, we have the lie.
The financial crisis in the PIGS (Portugal, Spain, Greece and Ireland) countries wasn’t caused by “entitlements”.
The causes were: low personal and corporate tax compliance (a growing problem we have here), poor financial regulation (a problem we have here), a banking crisis because of overexposure to the property market, dirty accounting practises (thanks to Goldman Sachs), dropping government revenue because of the U.S. recession affecting export markets, and, in the case of Spain and Ireland, a real estate bubble.
mai naem
I could say stuff about Kash’n’kari’s work at Treasury but seriously, the one thing that really stands out to me about this guy are his Charles Manson eyes. And y’all know what I’m talking about. I really should rip off that Bette Davis eyes song and make up some song about Charles Manson eyes.
Napoleon
@Sue:
He is Indian and from the Cleveland area. I swear I read his family are Democrats though.
batgirl
@MattR: Eh, it’s bullshit. Most economists believe raising taxes alone isn’t enough — they argue for tax raises and entitlement cuts. So he’s lying about “most economists” anyways.
jcricket
First, by definition used by those like Kashkari the entire government is broke, esp. the military, because they don’t generate enough revenue to offset their spending.
For now the public is solidly (for the moment) against cutting Social Security and Medicare. And if Democrats would realize that, they could probably win more elections. But I have no doubt, just like the public currently thinks letting tax cuts for the rich expire will “kill the economy”, a fair number of average joes will come to believe that Social Security and Medicare are socialist programs that make real murikans lazy.
Therefore they will vote to end the only two programs that stand between 10s of millions of seniors and abject poverty, likely dooming themselves to the same fate.
Here’s the worst part. When that happens, Americans will blame “Congress” for failing to provide economic security. Not Republicans or themselves. But some nebulous “Congress” for failing to make the connection between sensible taxation/regulation and economy security and growth for the masses.
If California is any indication, we’re thoroughly f*ed. People want their high services (but only for themselves), don’t want to pay for it, and have a party absolutely willing to tell them that’s possible.
Napoleon
@Southern Beale:
Actually the existing lines are insufficent to service a green power grid. There will need to be a major upgrade. Everyone agrees on that one.
Dave
Sacrifice? How about you and yours sacrifice by paying even half the taxes you did in the 1970s?
Brachiator
What most bothers me about this is that the author of the piece clearly has access to powerful drugs not available to the average working stiff. I mean we are talking serious “Goldman Sachs Bonus subsidized by taxpayer bailout money” drugs. Because you have to be mighty high to write delusional stuff like this.
Because apparently, the entire financial markets meltdown was little more than a blip on the otherwise efficient allocation of capital.
KG
@FormerSwingVoter: it is kind of funny. Having actually read the Federalist Papers (more than once), I am sometimes amazed by what some people claim to be the principles of the Founders. Then I realize that the lot of these bastards are the intellectual grandchildren of the Anti-Federalists.
Quiddity
@FormerSwingVoter:
Re:
Do you have a source for that? A book or Internet link?
ChrisWWW
Pure comedy gold!
Allocated straight to this dude’s bank account…
P.S. If “free markets” are so awesome why were you put in charge of reallocating capital back to banks?
Proper Gander
It’s time for Hooverfest! Kashkari’s just getting in the spirit of things, right?
gnomedad
This kind of mockery makes me nervous. Part of the problem is right-wing conflation of free markets (which I take to mean decentralized economic decision-making) with unregulated markets, which are nonsense — regulations, from my perspective, are the infrastructure of markets. So the wingers, I suspect, have convinced the rubes that when we mock “free markets” we are really favoring some grim collectivist system with defect-laden official government versions of everything from housing to toilet paper. We should stick to pointing out that the reality is “socialism for the rich; capitalism for the poor.”
The Moar You Know
Reads like Kashkari’s back on the blow again. Bad stuff, that cocaine.
gnomedad
Goddam moderation. Soshalizm does suck.
Chad N Freude
@Zifnab: Late to this party, but . . .
“Most Economists”. Would that be 51%, 60%, all economists who are not Paul Krugman? I’d like to see the polling questions put to the economists and results of the poll.
mai naem
I hope Neel reads the comments at WP. He’s going to get his feefees hurt big time. Not nice when one of the first comments is “Neel Kashkari can shove it up his a#@” and it goes downhill from there.
PeakVT
Can we put the Patriot Act to good use for once and have Goldman Sachs declared a terrorist organization?
wengler
I keep waiting for these guys to go Galt, and they just keep sticking around.
JGabriel
@batgirl:
Most economists are recommending more stimulus and/or complaining that the original stimulus was too small. Cutting entitlements now – money that gets spent immediately for the most part – would just deepen the recession and further weaken demand.
Most sane economists, anyway – as opposed to the small band of
RandianFriedmanUChicago lunatics Republicans Orwellianly refer to as “most economists”.JGabriel
@wengler:
Which if you think about it, is pretty much what Galt did too – when he wasn’t raping women, that is.
.
Arclite
Be careful what you say John. You could be fired from the WaPo.
FormerSwingVoter
@Quiddity:
A couple brief primers from Wikipedia:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_System_%28economic_plan%29
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_School_%28economics%29
It’s clearly not an ideal system – protectionist tariffs were a major point, and it’s rather telling that it was a major part of the Whig party’s platform. Still, though, it’s worth noting that what was internationally known as “the American System” involved a lot of federal spending and regulation, while laissez-faire “free market” economics were associated with the aristocracies of Europe.
I guess it’s caught on around here now that we’ve got our own aristocracy, though.
Sgt. Jrod and his Howling Commandos
The old “divine right” canard just doesn’t keep the peasants in check as well as it did back during the good ol’ days, but we need some moral justification for a tiny over-class to hoard all the wealth while everyone else is killing each other over bread crusts. Hmmmmmm…
Oh! I know. We’ll just pretend that wealth perfectly corresponds with skill and merit! Hell, that’s much better than simply saying that Gawd magically gave everything of value to a tiny rapacious minority, because now being poor is a personal failing! Helping the poor and downtrodden when they just have a bad lot in life is just fine, but there’s no reason to do anything for the lazy and stupid. It’s perfect.
People need to understand that for the super-wealthy this is not a bad economy. As far as they’re concerned, the bad economy was when the middle class had money too.
These people want your life to be hard and miserable. The masters of the universe.
FormerSwingVoter
@KG: This. This this this this this. Modern conservatives have far more in common with the anti-Federalists than our Founding Fathers.
LanceThruster
“I seriously hope Neel Kashkari chokes to death on caviar.”
—
Can it at least be crappy caviar?
I once saw a jar of caviar at the 99-cent Only Store. I bought it and learned it tasted as bad as the fancy caviar.
Howlin Wolfe
@MattR: And by “most economists . . .” they mean, without stating, “. . . that agree with my brain-dead ideology.”
mcd410x
The term “bait and switch” comes to mind.
srv
The only solution is a peaceful one.
JGabriel
@mcd410x:
I went on a double-date with Bait & Switch once. I thought I was supposed to end up with Bait, but…
(tm Joss Whedon)
.
Ruckus
@Bulworth:
Does it really matter if you get them confused? Aren’t they all interchangeable assholes?
RalfW
It really is the George Carlin thing over and over and over again.
Just Some Fuckhead
This is the way I wanna go.
Occasional Reader
I think focusing on the clumsy “me too” phrasing misses the bigger point, which is that it’s an open question whether craven politicans can make the tough choices that may be necessary should a full-blown debt crisis present itself. Anyone who reflexively answers “yes” should read Martin Wolf in the FT today.
rootless_e
shared sacrifice
is so beautiful
a patriotic dream
if you give up
breathing
i’ll cut down
on ice cream
if you sell chiclets
on street corners
i’ll shed a little tear
and if you got to
shine some shoes
i’ll tip you
fair and square
debbie
Aren’t tax cuts and tax shelters their own kind of entitlement?
Son of Dunn County
I hope people like young Mr. Kashkari keep running their mouths. The more these thugs talk the more people will get irritated and start fighting back. The more voting citizens he and his ilk piss off the better things will go at the polls during the next voting cycle. Give em all the rope they want I say.
JohnR
@MattR:
I suspect that’s because most economists live in a world where what they believe is their reality. Kindred spirits, you might say. Most scientists at some point have to justify their beliefs with tests on data, which makes them inherently untrustworthy to True Believers.
NOTE: Some economists also do this, with the same effect on their credibility to the True Believers.
Johnny's mom
That sound you hear is my head exploding. They don’t believe in free market. It’s a sales pitch. They want a stacked deck and they got it. Just one in a million examples: BP. Don’t regulate them, don’t tax them right? Doesn’t one contradict the other? They want caps on liability, but no oversite when it comes to prevention. Hypocrites. Now I’m all MAD!!!
Corner Stone
Can someone explain to me how the President’s Catfood Commission is any different than the view Kash N Kari is espousing here?
AhabTRuler
@Corner Stone: It isn’t. This is the march towards “sacrifice.”
Ed Drone
Anyone who can’t remember how to spell ‘awakened’ can’t be taken seriously.
Seriously!
Ed
General Stuck
@Corner Stone:
Karshkari has fully nine lives.
The Catfood Commission is an Obama created replicant that will quietly die unnoticed after a 4 year lifespan.
Corner Stone
@General Stuck: Just you wait botster. We’re going to be lining up to choke to death the themes that come out of this commission and take hold in the public discourse.
We’re going to spend a hell of a lot of time and energy trying to beat back something that should have never been allowed to be formed.
urbanmeemaw
@Ed Drone: Thank you! “Has awoken?” Child, please.
AnotherBruce
@Corner Stone:
You see, with the catfood commission there is a tradeoff. The sunsetted tax cuts disappear, and so does Grandma’s social security check. Everybody shares the burden.
Bipartisanship at its finest.
General Stuck
@Corner Stone:
I’m sure you will keep this in the BJ news as much as possible for the Obama fail narrative. The rest of us know dems and Obama are not going to fuck much with the third rail and the liberal Holy Grail of social security.
If you need extra pearls to clutch, put in your order now, there may be a shortage soon.
AhabTRuler
Note to pedants: it helps your position
a lotgreatly if you are actually right. Which you aren’t.Corner Stone
@General Stuck:
I prefer to not trust to men’s better angel when it comes to politicians and our social safety net.
So yes, I will continue to mention this item, and update as possible.
And as for the narrative, Obama had absolutely zero reason to mandate the formation of this commission. There is no 11-D reasoning at work here.
All it does is cause worry, work and angst for his putative allies. It’s an expense in time and effort that did not have to happen.
The commission is irrelevant. Don’t you get what’s happening here?
Probably not.
General Stuck
Yes Watson, I most certainly do.
arguingwithsignposts
@General Stuck:
Sadly, I think there’s a lot more to this than we’d like to think. Witness Cash-and-Carry’s column in WaPo today. Plus the state/local government pension benefits issues that are popping up all over the country (Cali. and Ill. being the most prominent cases so far).
The right wing wurlitzer is pushing this austerity idea, and it’s likely going to get worse.
consider my pearls clutched.
General Stuck
@arguingwithsignposts:
At some point, with the baby boomer train coming down the tracks, there will need to be something done. This commission, like 99.99999 of presidential commissions are formed to provide political cover and stall as long as possible getting serious about doing fixes to SS and medicare (the real problem)
When it becomes an emergency, there are going to be some benefit cuts and some other unsavory compromises made to also get the votes to raise the FICA tax roof above 80,000 income a year. But none of this will happen in a first Obama term, or any first term presnit. It will be done in a second term, or attempted. But once again, even if Obama gives away too much to the wingnuts, the congress will not pass it. SS and medicare are pillars of the New Deal that defines democrats, so they are not going to gut it in any way. But clutch on those pearls if you want, somebody has to. I guess.
arguingwithsignposts
@General Stuck:
I get the political cover argument. But removing the cap on Soc. Sec. contributions would do a lot to actually address whatever relatively meaningless issues there are with the system.
What I fear – and what I guarantee the Repubs are going to push – is raising the age to 70 on a lot of people who put into the system for a long, hard working career.
As long as people like Niall Ferguson and the entire GOP caucus in congress have jobs, I’m not taking anything for granted.
General Stuck
@arguingwithsignposts: I doubt the age of benefits will be raised to 70, but what dems are going to have to do, is quit fearing the wingnuts demagoguing SS and agree to means testing to free up more money for younger current workers and the baby boomers. The wingnuts will scream “welfare” and the like, but they have no real credibility on SS and medicare beyond the tea baggers. I very much doubt that Americans will ever see SS as welfare like the wingers want, but dems have to quit being afraid of that.
And again, for dems to accede to wingnut demands on large benefit cuts, or any privatization inside the safety net government structure, would be political suicide for democrats of the highest order. Nothing is impossible, but that seems highly unlikely.
AnotherBruce
@arguingwithsignposts:
That’s exactly where they’re going with this. And it’s going to hurt the people who need Social Security the most. People who have worked hard jobs all their lives and may not have a lot of life expectancy. With a lot of people who are deathly afraid that they may not get a job that pays for more than rice and beans for the rest of their lives, this commission is one more thing for people that are under the hammer to think about. That it’s coming from a Democratic president is all that more discouraging.
gerry
At least he recognizes his ideas about free markets as beliefs.
Corner Stone
“Means testing” is the second worst suggestion right behind raising the retirement age.
Watch your back anytime someone mentions it as the axe is coming.
You put a means test on it and for fuck sure it goes from a program that we’ve already paid for straight to “welfare”.
Corner Stone
@AnotherBruce:
That’s really my point. What the commission actually suggests, and how those votes go are one issue to consider.
But why the hell are we even talking about this?
Where’s the gain to demanding the commission be formed? Who is being sucked into some political advantage by it?
Ruckus
@General Stuck:
Never is a really long time. As Carlin might say, you no longer own your political future. I don’t expect changes to made either, but I do think it is more possible than you seem to. There are too many idiots and dolts that have been elected in this country that buy into the conservative over taxed/entitlement BS to say never. Too many who have been bought and paid for by those who want no taxes on themselves and no government obstruction on their way to more wealth. Conservatives don’t give a fuck about anyone else, never have, never will.
Who in politics will stop them if not those who demand better now?
General Stuck
@Corner Stone: Means testing has to be done. Hollering “welfare” by you and republicans will have little effect. SS is like apple pie and the stars and stripes. If it goes down, so does America. Need more pearls, maybe Bruce has some extra. Nattering Nobobs.
mclaren
@Emma:
Your uberconservative father seems to be suggesting what I’ve been suggesting for years, which according to the people on this forum means he’s ranting, raving, off his meds, in need of therapy, mentally ill, mentally retarded, insane, a psycho, [fill in the blank with insult of your choice].
Fortunately, in other news, San Francisco cops have protected capitalism by shutting down a kids’ lemonade stand because they didn’t have a permit.
Days like this just make you proud to be part of the Greatest Capitalist Country On Earth.
General Stuck
@Ruckus: I don’t believe i said “never” for changes to SS. In fact I said just the opposite. I did say it will not happen anytime soon, notwithstanding some bullshit pol cover commission. By that I mean at least until Obama’s second term, but I doubt even then. Politicians on both sides of the isle are scared shitless of this issue, and the history has been, that until a genuine emergency occurs, they do nothing but pontificate and bluster and form commissions whose reports get buried beneath all the other ones.
Corner Stone
@General Stuck:
Why? Why does it has to be done? Tell us please.
Corner Stone
@General Stuck:
Yeah, they made a “little adjustment” in 1983 and guess what happened?
They stole that shit. Stole it right the fuck out from under the people who have paid for it.
Now both Alan Simpson and Erskine Bowles want to make sure that little adjustment is never accounted for.
Ruckus
@General Stuck:
Apple pie and stars and stripes.
How many conservatives are willing to shit on the constitution and bill of rights to serve their own twisted agenda? What stars and stripes means to you and to them are two entirely different things.
How many conservatives think that the stars and stripes only wave over whites? How many conservatives think that the stars and stripes only wave over the wealthy or those they deem worthy?
I’ll bet you think the stars and stripes stand for everyone. Conservatives don’t.
I’ll bet you think that politics should be to help everyone. Conservatives don’t.
I’ll bet you think the stars and stripes stand for opportunity for all. Conservatives don’t.
General Stuck
@Corner Stone: Because the shortfall, even with lifting the FICA cap higher will not be enough to save especially medicare, based on baby boomer needs coming soon and rising Health Care costs.
The alternative is cutting benefits and screwing younger workers coming down the road. It doesn’t HAVE to be done, but to avoid these other negative fixes, it likely will have to be.
SS is in much better shape, but medicare is not.
Corner Stone
@General Stuck: Do not conflate medicare and SocSec.
They are two separate programs in two very different places.
SocSec is paid for.
General Stuck
@Ruckus: Conservative want a lot of shit that the public doesn’t. Fuck the conservatives, it is our job to see they don’t get their way. They have proven they cannot govern this country, and if the public is dumb enough to let them again, then this country doesn’t deserve to survive, and likely won’t making all this high brow political talk moot as a dead skunk in the road.
@Corner Stone: They didn’t steal anything. They borrowed it and left treasury notes, or govment iou’s behind. If those aren’t honored, then it means we are busy with our Mad Max phase here on the shining city on a hill.
Xanthippas
There isn’t anything wrong with this country that a few pitchforks and guillotines wouldn’t solve.
Well, that or a solid educational system, some serious campaign finance reform, and some gitmo’ing of right-wing op-ed writers.
Ruckus
@General Stuck:
Noted.
But the gist of your comment is that SS will not be seriously changed because it is the third rail of politics. That may have been true at a time when the electricity in that third rail was not controlled by the same people who pay the politicians. It is now. And those politicians have someplace to go and be rewarded after they do the bidding of the people with the electricity and are no longer politicians.
We may sound like chicken little and the sky may not actually be falling, but what if all the pieces are being pushed into place to get where you say we will not go?
Ruckus
@Xanthippas:
True that.
ETA And maybe some whatever it takes to heal some of the racial crap.
General Stuck
@Ruckus: Anything is possible in this crazy ass country, but I would personally fear more getting struck dead by a flying trout than Obama or the Dems letting SS get privatized or otherwise gutted. You could be right, but there are better things imo to get worked up about right now.
Corner Stone
@General Stuck:
You’ve said a lot of naive and utterly stupid shit in your time here. This qualifies as going on the bulletin board.
President Obama appointed Alan Simpson to co-chair the commission and he is on record as saying the money isn’t there, and the bonds are worthless.
Of course they are going to try it on a little bit that the bonds securing SocSec have no value. That is exactly what they will do.
That money is gone. Stolen. And if they get their way and raise the retirement age it will never be seen again.
General Stuck
@Corner Stone: Allan Simpson is full of shit, and maybe that is why Obama hired him and other dumbass wingnuts to say dumbass things, I don’t know. But for the US of A to default on it;s own treasury bonds is actually the stupidest thing said on this thread.
Simpson is always going to say the money isn’t there, because he is a wanker of the first order. It is like all the other money we are living on, Chinese money from them buying the same paper promises we made to SS,.
And like I said, if we default on these bonds, then that is all she wrote, we will go down like a lead balloon to whale shit on the bottom of the sea.
I swear, I don’t know why exactly Obama formed this commission and put on it jackasses like Simpson. I wish he hadn’t so I wouldn’t to be wasting my time trying to comfort frightened liberals that the sky is in fact not falling.
General Stuck
@Ruckus: GWB grabbed that sucker in his second term, and his approval after never got above 35 percent. The electricity is controlled by seniors with a vote, a lot of them, and many more on the way.
Corner Stone
@General Stuck:
Maybe you should think on that a little more when you snuggle with your plastic pony purple unicorn at night.
mclaren
@General Stuck:
Exactly what Corner Stone said. Medicare is 100% totally different from Social Security.
As usual, General Crackpot Fake Name’s statement is a stupid lie because medicare costs are tied to the cost of medical treatment in America and the cost of medical treatment is on an infinite upwards curve with no end in sight.
Means testing will do nothing to save medicare because the cost of medical treatment is skyrocketing at 15% per year. That means that every 5 years, the cost of medical care doubles. That’s unsustainable no matter how you means test. You can suck in revenue from every other government program and it still won’t save medicare. You can shut down our entire military-industrial complex and plow that 1.3 trillion per year into medicare, and it still won’t save medicare. Because the increase in medical cost is relentless. It goes up and up and up and up and up and up, doubling every 5 years. 10 years from now, medical care costs 4x what it does today corrected for inflation. 5 years after that, medical core costs 8x what it does today corrected for inflation. Medical care costs are skyrocketing up and up and up and up without limit, and the recent HCR bill did nothing, absolutely nothing to reduce costs in our out-of-control medical-industrial complex. The HCR bill contained zero cost controls. Nada. Zip. Dick. Bupkiss. Nichivo. Diddly. Squat. Zero.
You could shut down the military-industrial complex and close every government program except medicare and plow all the money into medicare, and it still wouldn’t save medicare. That would only stave off the collapse and bankruptcy of medicare for a few years, until the cost of medical care in America doubles and then doubles again. The principle of compound interest produces fantastic gains over time…it’s like taking a single grain of rice and doubling it on each square of a chess board — long before you reach the 64th square on the chessboard, you need all the rice in the world.
So means testing won’t do a goddamn thing to save medicare. Not as long as our corrupt collusive medical-industrial cartel continues to jack prices up at a rate of 15% per year, year after year after year after year after year, without end, infinitely, up and up and up and up and up and up.
“Experts Warn of Medical Industry Cartel’s Power, San Francisco Chronicle, 21 February 2010.
“The Hidden Public-Private Cartel That Sets Health Care Prices, Slate magazine, 2 September 2009.
Or just google the TIME story “The Unsustainable U.S. health Care System” dealing with the so-called Health Care “Reform” bill (which actually didn’t reform anything — all the former abuses like recission are still allowed, just under different names). 4 February 2010.
Or google the Social Security Advisory Board’s report from 2009 “The Unsustainable Cost of Health Care.”
They all say the same thing.
Medical care in America is trapped in an economic death spiral of geometric increases. It’s not linear, it’s exponential –it doubles and doubles again and doubles again. It keeps on doubling. No amount of money in the world can feed a monster like that. That’s like a uranium atom chain reaction, it explodes out of control.
Means testing is no answer. To fix medicare we have to fix America’s broken corrupt collusive medical devicemaker/hospital/doctor/health insurer cartels. Means testing is just a cheap sleazy way to distract us from the real problem.
Corner Stone
@General Stuck: Shit. He said it like he meant it and Nancy Smash said “Never. We will Never discuss SocSec with you.” And I cheered my little balls off and loved her for it. I can’t remember feeling so damn good about something the D caucus had done recently.
But now? Why now?
GWB’s ratings had nothing to do with SocSec because he got bitch slapped by the D’s when he even mentioned it.
General Stuck
@Corner Stone:
Sure they did, but so did other stuff as well. And you make my point that dems are not going to let SS be privatized if they have a choice. ever.
General Stuck
@mclaren: dear god. here we go. Mr. Wizzzzzzzzzzard!!
General Stuck
@Corner Stone:
At least I have my purple plastic unicorns to snuggle with, all you got is the shriveled primary corpse of Hillary.
BWWWWWWWWWWWWWaaa HHaaa ha!!
Ruckus
@General Stuck:
Don’t disagree on a lot of seniors being single issue. I am getting tantalizingly close to being a senior myself and I focus somewhat on SS. But I also see/hear about a lot of seniors who listen to fauxnews and voted for McCain. They ain’t too smart given that and if it is sold right (pun intended) grabbing that third rail might not hurt the politicians all that much. And if politicians have a safe haven after their public life is ended what the hell do they care? Many/most don’t seem to be in public life for the thrill of helping more than themselves.
Point is it isn’t the same as our fathers politics. Hell it isn’t even the same as when I started voting a few decades ago.
Ella in New Mexico
Would this guy qualify as an illustration for the term “Mother Fucker”????
Corner Stone
@General Stuck:
No, I make the point that the D’s slapped GWB around when he tried it on.
But now? Now it’s on the table. For reasons no one can really explain.
mclaren
As usual, General Crackpot Fake name is spewing bullshit without a clue:
He doesn’t seem to realize that one entire political party in America loves the idea of an American default. They’re working for it. They’re working for it hard.
“The Political Genius of Supply-Side Economics,” Martin Wolf, The Financial Times, 25 July 2010.
And here’s what economics professor Brad DeLong has to say about Martin Wolf’s analysis:
“Nowhere. He is not wrong,” says Brad DeLong.
“Martin Wolf Makes the Case that America’s Future Depends on the Destruction of the Republican Party,” Brad DeLong, 25 July 2010, “Grasping reality with both hands” blog.
Lastly, note that there is no prospect of the Republican party getting destroyed at the polls. This November, the Republican party stands to make big gains across the board with the electorate. The Republicans are going to increase their numbers in the House and the Senate. The Republican party is not going away anytime soon, it’s getting stronger and all the polls show it.
Examine the fiscal data, study the politics, and draw your own conclusions.
General Stuck
. No, Sal, this is important, this is important. Come on, let’s leave! …
General Stuck
@Corner Stone: It’s not on the table, but believe what you want. Mclaren certainly does.
mclaren
General Crackpot Fake Name apparently thinks this graph of U.S. health care costs over time compared to every other nation either doesn’t exist, or is ha-ha funny.
Guess what?
The graph is real. American health care costs are rising exponentially and have been for 40 years.
Facts have consequences.
General Stuck
@mclaren:
you stole my line. there is a penalty for that.
And your momma called and said it was time for your injection.
Nick
@mclaren: mclaren, I interviewed a Republican candidate for Congress here in New York this week who said;
“We have the best healthcare system in the world, even with all its problems that need fixing”
and this guy may win.
People are purposely ignorant to such facts.
Corner Stone
@General Stuck:
Stop arguing with me you stupid fucking douchebag:
On the table
On the table
Corner Stone
On the table
Corner Stone
On the table
General Stuck
@Corner Stone: LOL, you are like some harpy watching soap operas and getting them confused with real life. They always say everything is on the table dumbass. It is pol theater and nothing more, to keep puma worry worts worrying about how Obama is going to screw them next. The same as the worry worts on Redstate, just with a D by their name.
I tell you what, if they privatize SS, I will be YOUR Huckleberry for ever and ever and ever and ever and up and up and up.
Corner Stone
@General Stuck: What a sad little man you are.
It must be hard to contort yourself into all those fucked up shapes every day and night.
Although, for someone without a spine like yourself I’m sure it’s easier than I can imagine.
General Stuck
@Nick:
Mclaren wasted a bunch of bandwidth to tell us the great revelation that health care costs are rising out of control. I think the real reason was so she could call me General Crackpot Fake Name. As it apparently gives her some starbursts or something.
General Stuck
@Corner Stone:
Stop arguing with me you stupid fucking douchebag:
mclaren
Like Mnemosyne, General Crackpot Fake Name is a classic sociopath. You can’t argue with sociopaths, they simply deny they said what they just said and blithely make statements (“Mclaren wasted a bunch of bandwidth to tell us the great revelation that health care costs are rising out of control”) whose logical conclusions directly contradict what they previously said (“[means testing has to be done] Because the shortfall, even with lifting the FICA cap higher will not be enough to save especially medicare”).
Logically, if health care costs are rising out of control, means testing won’t save medicare.
Of course, General Crackpot Fake Name utterly disregards the blatant logical contradiction inherent in his statements. This is typical of a sociopath’s thinking. The sociopath will tell any lie and then immediately deny he told it. The sociopath will directly contradict himself, then angrily and indignantly deny it’s a contradiction. The only thing that counts for a sociopath is coming out ahead in an argument — by any means: lies, illogic, denying what they just said, denying the obvious meaning of words…any means. The sociopath cares only about himself, so winning the argument is all that matters. Any lie, any incoherent illogic is fine for the sociopath…as long as he thinks it helps him win the argument.
The most hilarious example?
Classic sociopathic thinking.
“I never stole that car, I just borrowed it!”
“I didn’t rape that woman, officer, I just had sex with her after I strangled her until she stopped fighting.”
“I didn’t murder anyone, I just stuck a knife in his back and twisted it until the guy stopped moving.”
Corner Stone has so definitively won this argument that it’s truly embarrassing listening to our resident sociopath General Crackpot Fake Name twist the plain meanings of words and contradict himself. Like a classic sociopath, General Crackpot Fake Name has been reduced to hysterical personal attacks now that all his arguments have been blown apart and all his claims have been proven to be 100% bullshit.
Yes, faced with Corner Stone’s devastating citation of fact after fact contradicting General Crackpot Fake Name’s claim that social security cuts “aren’t on the table,” this is Crackpot Fake Name’s response.
Straight out of Dr. Hare’s classic “Sociopathy Checklist.”
General Stuck
@mclaren:
You lie!!
LOL, You owe me a keyboard, you big crazy person.
mclaren
See?
Faced with Corner Stone’s four different citations proving that Obama or the cat food commission has explicitly stated that social security cuts are “on the table,” General Crackpot Fake Name’s response is “You lie!”
Reportedly, George W. Bush used to do this in classes at Yale. He would say things like “Welfare is a free vacation for slackers,” and then when the professor criticized him for it, Dubya would yelp “I never said that!” When other students piled on to point he had in fact said that, Dubya angrily shouted “You’re lying!”
Classic sociopathic behavior.
General Stuck
@mclaren:
I was talking about privatization you nut, not benefit cuts.
mclaren
Deny, deny, deny.
It worked for Karl Rove.
General Crackpot Fake Name is hoping it’ll work for him.
Classic sociopathic behavior.
slightly_peeved
Wrong. Trial programs of payment bundling for medicare are included.
mclaren
@slightly_peeved:
Reducing payments to doctors and hospitals through medicare merely means that doctors and hospitals won’t accept medicare patients.
That’s already happening, it’s simply going to accelerate because of the HCR non-reform “reform” bill.
As usual, I have evidence for everything I say: “Doctors Limit New medicare patients,” USA Today, 21 June 2010.
“Physicians limiting new medicare patients over low payment concerns.”
You people just don’t get it.
Doctors and hospitals and medical devicemakers and health insurers in America are wallowing in a vast river of gold, getting fabulously rich by stealing peoples’ life savings for overpriced medical procedures and unnecessary surgeries and $10 aspirin and $3500 MRIs (the exact same MRI scan in Germany using the exact same machine costs $350). They’re not going to stop. Doctors and hospitals and medical devicemakers and health insurers in America will use any scam, any trick, any scheme, any illegal restraint of trade, any monopoly, any rigged cartel, any price-fixing ripoff, any sweetheart contract that locks in suppliers, any confidentiality agreement that prevents disclosing prices, to keep on raking in that vast river of gold.
Reform medicare?
Doctors will stop accepting medicare patients.
Reduce the profit margin on health insurers?
Health insurers will merely use backdoor deals that hugely jack up the cost of medical procedures so the health insurers make the same amount of money they did before (reducing profit from 60% on a $10,000 procedure to a 15% profit margin on a $40,000 medical procedure nets the health insurer the same profit).
Eliminate unnecessary surgeries?
Doctors will simply jack up the cost of ancillary tests and imaging from the blood test labs and imaging clinics the doctors own to make up the difference.
The only way to stop the limitless increase of medical costs in this country is to take profit out of the system. As long as the jackals feed off dying people, they will gouge them for every dime they can rip off.
Interview with T.R. Reid, author of “The healing of America: A Global Quest for Better, Cheaper, and Fairer Health Care,” 15 September 2009, The New York Times.
Quiddity
@FormerSwingVoter: Thanks. BTW, I think a little protectionism is healthy, especially with the globalization we’re experiencing.
slightly_peeved
@mclaren:
You said there were no cost controls. I provided one. To say “there is not one cost control in the bill” when what you mean is “there are cost controls in the bill, but I think they will be ineffective” is disingenous. It imputes that the administration does not even acknowledge the problem of cost control, when they do and just differ to its extent.
th
@Tom Hilton:
“Austerity porn” I like that. My dad used to say if a Republican was designing a new town, the first thing he’d ask is “Where do we put the slum?”
mclaren
@slightly_peeved:
No, as I demonstrated, that provision does not control costs.
Larding on regulations that the medical-industrial complex will easily evade is not cost control — it’s kabuki theater.
It’s exactly like the police claiming to be “ending prostitution” by rounding up some hookers. The hookers just move to another part of the city. The police haven’t ended prostitution and everyone knows it. Obama’s HCR bill doesn’t control costs and everyone knows it.
liberal
@General Stuck:
The issue isn’t one of an actual default. Rather, the issue is what happens when bonds in the trust fund are paid off. They could be used to buy more bonds to be put back into the trust fund, for example, instead of allowing the fund to be drawn down.