First of all, much thanks to John for inviting me to write at Balloon Juice. For those of you unfamiliar with my writing, I blog at a number of venues. Up until recently one of those was True/Slant. Currently I write at the group blog I helped launch a year and a half ago, The League of Ordinary Gentlemen; at my own personal blog, American Times; and at The Washington Examiner. I posted for a while at David Frum’s New Majority until he changed the name to FrumForum, whereupon I just couldn’t do it anymore.
I typically write about things like civil liberties, immigration, fiscal sanity, folk wisdom, healthcare policy, reforming conservatism, the war on drugs, transportation and urbanism, the culture wars, and fantasy and science fiction. Occasionally I drop some deep thoughts in 140 characters or less here. These days I mostly listen to The National and The Avett Brothers. I’m reading the Culture novels by Iain M. Banks. I don’t own a television, but I’m a big fan of shows like Lost and The Office which I sometimes watch on my computer.
John alluded to me as a ‘sane conservative’ and I’m sure plenty of people would take issue with both descriptors, but I’ll take what I can get. I look forward to stirring the pot around here a bit with my perfectly lucid advocacy of free markets, limited government and fiscal discipline. You may also find that I’m anti-war, anti-torture, anti-stupid-arguments-against-building-mosques, and anti-death-penalty. Indeed, I’m pro-life across the board though I have little interest in immersing myself in the endless culture war debates.
I also have very little interest in bashing other conservatives or, for that matter, liberals. Bashing has very limited utility. And others are better at it in any case.
So thanks for having me! I’ll see you in the combox….
Rosalita
Welcome! Look forward to your posts.
Xenos
Au contraire. Since leftie and rightie partisans tend to be so boring, this is the best approach. Bashing has its uses. Like alleviating boredom.
NobodySpecial
Pleasure to have you here, in whatever form. Bloghost, target practice, effigy….
Seriously, though, I still have your post ‘Conservatives as Self-Parodies’ bookmarked. Whatever else it will be, your brief tenure here will be interesting.
And, now, I leave you with some famous words from the host of Super Smash TV.
Good luck! You’ll need it!
EDIT – AND a ‘Sympathy For The Devil’ reference? You’ll fit right in.
aimai
Look forward to having you here. Though of course, either the sanity or the conservativism will have to go.
aimai
SiubhanDuinne
Hi, E. D. Kain, and welcome to Balloon Juice. I look forward to reading your posts and congratulate John on having the good sense to invite you to play in his sandbox.
Now to the most urgent and crucial question: What kind of animals live with you, what are their names/ages/stories, and are there pictures?
Welcome.
Xenos
@aimai: If he is here, both are probably seriously compromised.
Oh, I missed the Iain Banks reference. Just read ‘The Algebraist’ and my mind was suitably blown. Great stuff.
Brad Hanon
Enjoy the Culture novels: The Player of Games and Use of Weapons were my favorites, but YMMV.
BH
In my view, your choice to associate yourself with the Washinton Examiner completely undermines your credibility. To wit: mediamatters.org/search/index?qstring=washington+examiner
Completely.
TomG
Welcome, E.D. Looking forward to your postings.
I tend to favor classic liberalism over conservatism myself.
I’ll check out some of your earlier writings.
I’ve recently started watching LOST (after it ended of course), and read lots of science fiction. Do you read Whatever (John Scalzi’s blog) ?
WereBear
So… you’re a man of wealth and taste :)
c u n d gulag
Welcome, E. D.
Always willing to read what people with different viewpoints have to say.
You started off well by not calling us “You G*******d f*****g stupid Libtard traitors…” and getting really obscene from there.
:-)
Carry on!
mistermix
Welcome, E.D.
@BH: It’s what you write, not where you write it.
roshan
We don’t need any stinkin’ conservatives around here. We march in lock step with the fat blog owner.
Let me borrow few words off 4chan.
13th Generation
Welcome. This should be fun. Maybe not for you…
j
Welcome. I’ll be happy to consider your arguments as long as you refrain from citing “commonsense” conservatism in any way, shape, or form. That phrase tells me to ignore whatever comes next.
DBrown
So, what makes you a conservatism (except in name only)? All your main points are a wacko-crazy left wing god hating supporter of socialism liberal that any and all offical repub-a-thugs/media controlled news rags called useles american hating typical liberals beliefs that exclude you from gods grace and the love of raygun the stupid (who ranks two levels above god – or was that he ranks two levels below what floats in a septic tank which is three levels above cheny/bush the bloody.)
Oh, sorry – forgot to add: Welcome
jonst
Go fuck yourself! Just kidding…..just kidding, sorta warming you up to what’s coming.
Superluminar
Welcome also, too. Whilst I love the Culture books in the sense that they’re great fun to read (also inventive starship names FTW!), the plot reveals are just getting too obvious – he’s recycling the same basic device first used in Use of Weapons, still the best of the series IMO. Anyway, what other scifi authors you into Eric?
spudvol
“Whether or not Breitbart was right or wrong to post the video…”
Link
Is there a question in your mind as to whether Breitbart’s actions were right or wrong?
debbie
As a fan of League of Ordinary Gentlemen, it’ll be nice to see you here too. Welcome.
matoko_chan
There will be blood.
General Stuck
Pleased to meet you.
you don’t have to guess my name.
Hugin & Munin
mistermix@12: While I remain agnstic about the guilt by association, The Examiner is an agit-prop piece of shit. It does not lend credibility to it’s contributors.
Sam Hutcheson
Oh, nifty. I’ve read you at The League and True/Slant. To be honest, Balloon Juice had slipped down to my “weekly check” status rather than “daily read.” Having you here will push it back up to the daily thread.
I recently finished “Consider Phlebus” and was duly impressed. I have “Player of Games” queued up, as well as Banks’ most recent, non-Culture novel, “Transition.”
Welcome. The crowd here can be, um, fiesty at times. I’m sure you’re survive.
Violet
Welcome to Thunderdome.
Hugin & Munin
Damnit, that is to say “its contributors.”
Need more coffee, stat.
snarkypsice
Hi, I Just read your piece on healthcare reform. Don’t agree with you about the public option (boy could I use one of those!) but I thought it was smart and well-reasoned and interesting.
I’ll be interested to read what you have to say.
But sane + conservative? That’s a tiny club these days.
Remember November
Is your joining BJ during Shark Week a coincidence? I think not.
Violet
@Remember November:
Lindsay Lohan was just released from prison. Coincidence?
The Grand Panjandrum
No sympathy for the devil from me.
Sentient Puddle
Ooh, good pick John. Welcome, Erik!
John S.
I would LOVE to see someone attempt to justify the ill effects of American free market capitalism without descending into Randian glibertarian bullshit.
Good luck with that, Mr. Kain.
arguingwithsignposts
I see Siobhan beat me to the most relevant question, so Mac or PC? Welcome.
matoko_chan
We are Anonymous
We are Legion.
We do not forgive.
We do not forget.
Expect us.
what he said.
13th Generation
@Remember November
McMegan deleted my comment yesterday where I slapped her down for her opinion on the evils of fixed rated mortgages,
so I’m kind of out for blood.
matoko_chan
also-too
looking forward to epic deconstruction of your riddickulous argument that diploid oocytes are analogous to black slaves.
Do you have banning privs?
taterstick
Well, while I don’t necessarily believe in guilt by association, there are exceptions to that; e.g., white supremacists, Fox News and disgusting rags like the Examiner/Newsmax and their ilk. Neither do I believe there is anything to be gained from reading anything that has ever been published at the Examiner.
Sine JC asked you here, I will give you the benefit of the doubt, but I ain’t holding my fucking breath.
Paris
Welcome, from a fellow Avett Brothers fan.
matoko_chan
i wouldn’t be so sanguine if i were you Kain.
Cole just did the equivalent of dropping you off in the Pit of Sauron armored in welfare epics and greens.
Perry Como
One piece of advice: don’t read the comments.
geg6
@John S.:
This.
I’ve read a bit of our new front pager’s stuff and he strikes me as a liberaltarian, though I could be completely wrong (as any good BJer can be).
I do, however, approve..with reservations. Keeps me sharp to hear the other side from a semi-sane (IMHO, no conservative or libertarian is really completely sane; it’s all matter of degree) POV. It’s what was interesting about True/Slant most of the time.
I wouldn’t, however, be doing any bragging about being in The Examiner. Nothing to be proud of there. League of Extraordinary Gentlemen is a pretty interesting place, though.
Oh, and welcome aboard the crazy train, E.D.
demo woman
Thanks for joining the crew. If you are not interested “in immersing myself in the endless culture war debates”, I assume you will not have posts on the republican party because that’s all they have.
NobodySpecial
@matoko_chan: That’s hardly dangerous enough to recommend it, seeing how easy WoW is compared to hardcore MMO’s.
Now, we could say that Cole just did him the equivalent of porting him into the Plane of Fear with a rusty dagger and a Dark Red Robe. That would be better.
Frank
Welcome!
I used to be a Republican until the GOP stared to literally go insane over the last decade. If you are one of the sane ones, we will have a lot in common.
ksmiami
No, no, E.D. Kain just left the Crazy Train… we’re the loopy, but sane ones so welcome, but you won’t find many people defending today’s “conservatives” (well, rabid radicals). And I am known as a capitalist who believes that good governance is essential to preserve a humming private sector.
Good luck – as John can attest, we are probably one of the more challenging audiences.
robertdsc-PowerBook & 27 titles
Aimai FTW.
Do you have pets? Do share as we love pets.
gelfling545
We will be sure to have some courtesy, some dignity and restraint.
Ned R.
Interesting choice reading the Culture novels — while I’ve grown a bit weary of sf-as-allegory-for-the-current-times (one reason why the Battlestar Galactica revive turned out to be less inspiring to me than on first blush), Banks’s playing out of the ‘at what price freedom?’ trope is at its best top notch. Probably helps that as a child of the Cold War who grew up in the UK rather than the US he had a much different perspective (thus Alan Moore as well, among many others).
That all said, welcome indeed — I don’t expect you to answer for the sins of compatriots at places like the Examiner (no more so than I would answer for friends of mine who are generally in my own camp but are prey to their own extreme conclusions and fears) but it would be of interest to talk about, in your own experience, if said types have evidenced being open to discussion and reflection or not. Because if not, they’re coming across as mindlessly reactive, reductive and ultimately boring, and if they are, then a little less cynicism on their part might be nice — as well as less boring in turn.
CynDee
Wecome, E.D.:
What she said — SiubhanDuinne
scav
@gelfling545:
and they will be slightly tattered, dazed and bedraggled after five minutes minimum, but they’ll soon catch on and start wearing chandeliers and flinging party hats with the rest of us.
Trinity
Welcome! Glad you are joining our conversation. I’m looking forward to learning more about your perspective.
D-Chance.
Welcome to the Juice, Mr Kain. Just ignore the “hooligans”…
and, as noted in a comment above, it’s Cole Law that all front-pagers post pics and details of all non-human inhabitants in the household. Bonus points if they’re incurably adorable or Satanically evil.
matoko_chan
@NobodySpecial: i’ll take that.
i just want to see the fetus=slave calumny and supply-side economics fantasies gutted, with their entrails drawn out sliced and dripping gore.
Praps Kain can tell us teabaggers aren’t relly racist some more.
so fun.
Phillip J. Birmingham
Welcome! I’ve read you on T/S and League before — nice to see you’ve landed at another one of my favorite places.
geg6
@matoko_chan:
Meh. Kain is Catholic. As a happily atheist recovering Catholic, I can deal with someone who is anti-choice as long as I don’t have to hear a fucking word about it. Catholics are fucked up people, as I can attest to since pretty much everyone I know and love (including myself) either is one or was one. And the ones that still are are the most fucked up of all, spending too much time parroting the Vatican while doing the exact opposite in their own lives. So I have some sympathy for them. I just don’t want to hear about their shit, especially their views on “morality.”
And sorry BJ Catholics, but I can only report what I witness and experience. YMMV.
keestadoll
Good call John and welcome E.D.!
Disregard the above orders to stay away from word combos like “sane conservative.” As we all know, or SHOULD know, ideological definitions–for better or worse–morph over time. Today’s “conservative” would have been yesterday’s “liberal,” etc, etc…
The most important thing in this group is to speak truth, back it up with lots of pretty hyperlinks, and the occasional pet story.
Look forward to your posts!
Jane2
Welcome!
I look forward to a lucid, workable definition of “limited government”….I haven’t read one yet, and arguments based on writings of pre-Industrial Revolution founders make me gag.
Iain Banks rocks.
Now….pets? Naked mopping? Gardening? Refusal to go for beers with any human? Details, pls.
DougJ
Liked your stuff at True/Slant. Glad to have you aboard.
Could we at least convince you to bash some of your former colleagues at True/Slant?
NewHavenReview
Welcome, E.D.
Frum’s New Majority was so promising at first, as was The Next Right. Alas, I guess promises were meant to be broken.
I think only The American Conservative, with Dan Larison at the helm (and often with Glenn Greenwald’s respect), keeps its head on straight, as far as the right side of the aisle goes.
Bob
Erik, does this mean Bob Cheeks and Kos will be commenting here now?
matoko_chan
@geg6: the OMG ABORTION IS TEH FETUS SLAVERY is the most hideously revolting example of base pandering that I have ever seen. Kain is a mainsteam conservative……they all exist in pantswetting fear of their base because they think their base is too stupid to learn.
Kain better get some banning and comment deletion privs from Cole while he can.
i aim to misbehave.
AnnaN
“Indeed, I’m pro-life across the board…”
/facepalm
Okay, fine – reserving judgment until I read your what you have written.
matoko_chan
@AnnaN: here ya go.
omg abortion is teh fetus slavery
that is standard Kain– pander to the base even when they get a Malkin award for rabid insanity.
i wish Cole had got Freddie DeBoer instead.
SiubhanDuinne
@gelfling545:
We will be sure to have some courtesy, some dignity and restraint.
Hahahahahahaha
Punchy
Sorry, but by definition this, if true, does not allow you to claim you’re a conservative. Sucks, but your camp makes some fucked up rules.
jacy
Welcome, E.D.
I’ll attempt the benefit of the doubt, as Cole has seen fit to slip you a key, but try to avoid the bold contrarianism that Sully, et. al. so fawn over. Likewise, spouting things like abortion is analagous to slavery just to spark a conversation. All it sparks in me is the desire to punch somebody.
Perhaps you could start by explaining further what you wrote in a recent blog post:
I find that so many flavors of wrong, I don’t even know where to start.
John S.
@geg6:
Time will tell. I just hope Mr. Kain doesn’t bring weak sauce to defend some of his more “colorful” views as some other commenters have noted. We don’t need another Michael D. offering up pitiful nonsense and trying to pass it off as enlightened commentary.
Dracula
@matoko_chan: Ruh roh. I just read that and almost punched my monitor. A gestating fetus is the same as a slave, b/c they can’t eat what they want, get up and walk away, or drink a Natty Lite?
No chance this guy passes the smell test.
Chad N Freude
May I call you E.D.? (Not the same as “May I call you out.E.D.”?) Anyway, since as far back as Reagan’s CA governorship, I’ve felt that “sane conservative” is an oxymoron, but to demonstrate how fair and balanced I can be when I attack you in the future, please note:
@spudvol: If you bother to read beyond the fragmented quote you linked to, you would see that Kain was saying “Independent of the rightness or wrongness of a blogger’s [Breitbart’s] posting, should the blogger have to face civil penalties for what he posts?” I am very leery of fragmented context-free quotes, and I like to check them out to see what was actually meant. Kinda like with Breitbart.
AlanDownunder
Welcome.
About your adherence to “fiscal discipline”. Do you mean always, no matter what, or not during recessions ?
debit
@jacy: He seriously wrote that? Wow. It’s my sincere desire, as a woman, that he never gets laid again.
Sheila
Good to see you hear, Mr. Kain, to enlarge the discussion. I am appreciative of your pro-life across the board stance. Even though I am pro-choice, I have respect for all those who are anti-choice if they are also anti-violence in any venue. I cannot resist a quote from Eric Hoffer, however, in regard to free trade (from 1951): “If free enterprise becomes a proselytizing holy cause, it will be a sign that its workability and advantages have ceased to be self-evident.”
matoko_chan
@Dracula: Cole could have got Douthat or McMeghan to spew the same crapology.
They are all interchangable. The conservative base has been culled to be dim-witted racists for 50 years and now the soi disant conservative intellectuals are pantswetting terrified of them.
All they can do is pander or they will get gulag’d like Frum and Sully and Friedersdorf.
flukebucket
@matoko_chan:
But that is not true. It is just so much easier to bullshit your base than it is to educate them.
matoko_chan
@jacy: yeah, he’s an idiot.
raped women don’t have a choice.
He is a total hypocrite like all the LIFEtards.
If they actually think abortion is murder they should seek to prosecute women that choose to have abortions, and seek to prevent the creation of excess fertility therapy embryos doomed to terminal cryostasis.
Its all about pandering to the base.
Kain fucking backed up the rabid moron that got one of Sully’s Malkin Awards for the fetus=slave bullshytt.
Xanthippas
Welcome! This blog needs more sane conservatives, with whom you can actually have a decent and enlightening argument. And perhaps I can use your posts as an antidote to those written by DougJ.
Chad N Freude
@matoko_chan: I can’t take seriously arguments against abortion (or anything else) on religious grounds. Why are Catholics and Evangelicals right about abortion? Are Muslims and Jews right about eating pork, and all you Jimmy Dean fans are defying God when you eat sausage? (I’m waiting for the day when God smites you with a barbecue grill.) I’m willing to consider arguments based on a non-religious morality, e.g., slavery is wrong because no human group has a right to enslave another. But religious arguments are based on received wisdom, not analysis or a concept of universal rights, and have no basis beyond “I was taught to believe this.” To be clear, I think there are arguments against abortion that may have some degree of validity, but religious arguments aren’t among them.
matoko_chan
@flukebucket: but the conservative base may actually BE too stupid to learn….consider racism as an example.
its ingrained so deep in the conservative psyche that they can’t switch it off, even when they desperately need to…..look at Breitbart.
Every word he says turns off more youth and minority voters, and he just cant stop himself.
And birtherism…..the McMegans and Douthats and Kains put out the full court press and drove it underground….but does anyone doubt it is still there?
Egilsson
Horde or Alliance?
matoko_chan
@Chad N Freude:
example please..i’ve never seen one….they are all like arguments against SSM.
Again, the “amg abortion is teh fetus slavery” is not a religious argument– it is a Malkin Award winning argument.
It is just moronic.
MattR
@matoko_chan:
Maybe you can explain why E.D. is actually wrong instead of just screaming OMG TEH SLAVERY. I don’t think his conclusion is all too crazy if you accept his premise (which I, and most people here, do not).
matoko_chan
@Egilsson:
woeful scrub of either faction…Kain needs to L2P his class.
Chad N Freude
@matoko_chan: I didn’t say I had any, I just think there may be (I should not have said “are”). And I should add that application of such arguments independent of circumstance (such as the life-of-the-mother exception, the severely malformed fetus exception) would be morally indefensible. Anyway, the possible existence of an argument against doesn’t negate the argument for a woman’s right to choose to have one.
E.D. Kain
Thanks everyone. I’ll try to respond to you all in more detail later but I’m pressed for time.
To answer a few questions:
Other science fiction I’ve read recently – Spin is the last one I can recall. Had been reading mostly fantasy before that. The Malazan books.
I’m not going to get into the abortion debate any more. As I’ve said my position is personally pro-life but I’m not in favor of outlawing it. I believe it is consistent with my position on war, the death penalty, etc. I appreciate that not everyone feels that way.
Breitbart was wrong to publish the Sherrod video; the government was more wrong to fire her.
I think fiscal discipline is important always, especially since government tends to abuse it during good times. If they didn’t spend like drunken sailors during good times, there would be more cushion for bad times. See Bell, CA for the worst sort of govt spending.
More later. Thanks for the welcome.
matoko_chan
@MattR: because diploid oocytes can’t WANT anything.
TNC–
matoko_chan
/sneer
Ned R.
@E.D. Kain:
Gov’t spending or outright theft? I’d like to draw that distinction right now, thanks, because criminality, however given the figleaf of approval in that city’s case, is not the inevitable end result in all cases. (Keep in mind I’m a California gov’t employee via the UC.)
Dracula
@MattR: Let’s adjust this and see how ridiculous the argument becomes:
See? Since a child has fewer rights, it’s just like slavery!
schrodinger's cat
Endangered species or an oxymoron?
MazeDancer
Since all successful blogs have vastly more Loyal Lurkers than visible participants, as a mostly LL, I say welcome.
Many of us have serious questions for serious Conservatives. As you are foreign and inexplicable to us. And we don’t understand why we would be the same to you.
But as we all hope for World Peace, perhaps if we can open some communication here, a little something will shift in the wider world.
Hoping for lots of discussion and little name-calling on both sides.
Also hoping for illumination on what Conservatives actually consider “Freedom”. And why they’re so capricious with who gets some.
Also wondering about how lonely and frustrating it must feel for you folks with some strong beliefs that don’t include hate. And do include truth. You must mourn the death of journalism as much as we do.
Impressed with the gumption and spirit of adventure that would lead you to do such a thing as join in here.
You didn’t mention cats or dogs. Isn’t having some a requirement?
matoko_chan
@Egilsson: Maybe Kain is just a retard…..cuz right now hes standing in fire AND a pile of green shit.
MattR
@Dracula: Yes, exactly. Because the right to life is just like the right to leave home and all those other examples.
slag
Great. Another “free market” conservative who wants to make the government just small enough to fit inside the uterus is now invading Balloon Juice. Just what the interwebs needed.
That is all.
Ben JB
Welcome, E.D. I just added League to my RSS feed and am enjoying it, though I expect I will enjoy more the discussion here.
Truth be told, I was left unsatisfied by some of your last posts (abortion v. slavery, and whether that comparison deserves Sully’s Malkin award; Anne Rice leaving Christianity for Christ), and I think the discussion here might be helpful. (Though I don’t know if Anne Rice will stop by.)
MattR
@matoko_chan:
This sounds more like disputing his premise than his conclusion.
E.D. Kain
I have no cats and dogs. Two children, though…and a lovely wife.
Hugin & Munin
slag: It’s more the dumping it under the heading of ‘culture war’ that is weak and offensive. Only one side of the argument is interested in imposing its interpretation of ‘culture’ on others, and it isn’t the side advocating that individuals be able to make an informed choice.
Rosalita
@E.D. Kain:
but your view on pets? we come here for the politics but stay for the pets…
Chad N Freude
@E.D. Kain: The Bell CA issue is not government spending, it’s using a position of authority for self-enrichment. The money was spent on self-approved salaries.
E.D. Kain
@Ben JB: Re: Anne Rice, to me it just doesn’t make sense. If you follow Christ, then you’re a Christian. Here’s how I imagine it works: Someone very charismatic and popular ditches what they call Christianity but still follow Christ. Others join up. They share a similar world view. Organization occurs. Pretty soon you’ve got just another organized branch of the religion known as Christianity.
Re: abortion and slavery – I’ve said I don’t like the comparison but it doesn’t deserve a Malkin award. I’m not really sure I have much more to add to it than that. Abortion is one of those things that you don’t find compromise on no matter how much time you spend tearing one another to shreds. My last comment on the matter pretty much sums my take up.
Chad N Freude
@MazeDancer:
I like that. But I’d substitute “selective” for “capricious”.
schrodinger's cat
I am stuck in moderation because I had a typo in my e-mail address, so I am repeating what I said.
‘sane conservative’
Endangered species or an oxymoron?
ETA: If my comment, stuck in moderation reappears, sorry for the double post.
schrodinger's cat
@Chad N Freude: Its simple really they are kind to their kind.
Chad N Freude
@E.D. Kain: Rice appears to be talking about leaving organized religion, not abandoning belief in Christ.
Tim Ellis
Welcome over here! Good to see you thriving :D
JGabriel
A sane conservative, huh?
It seems like it was just yesterday, in response to Bob Inglis’s surprise at Tea Party craziness, that I posted this:
So, Mr. Kain, why should we believe you’re a sane conservative? Those questions still seem as relevant today as yesterday. When you chose to advocate for a conservative philosophy, what did you think you were signing up for, if not conservativism’s long tradition of xenophobia and conspiracy mongering?
P.S. Welcome to the party!
.
Jim Pharo
Welcome. Glad to have another diverse voice.
Tell me something. What do you think “limited government” actually is? I’ve never understood it as a sensible phrase in its own right. It seems like a euphemism for “anti-imaginary-Democratic-love-of-‘endless government'” to me. I can’t say I know any Dems (or any one else) who believes in “unlimited government…”
Chad N Freude
@JGabriel: I think that it’s possible to be a conservative philosophically without buying into the nasty social and economic positions that the Republicans and Tea Partiers have espoused. Of course, not considering myself to be a Conservative, I don’t really KNOW that.
me
@MattR: Because he’s trading one alleged slavery for another.
Bill Murray
“lucid advocacy of free markets”
I hope for lucid advocacy of other non-existent chimera like Ghosts, the Bermuda Triangle and Bigfoot
jacy
@Chad N Freude:
Most Christians don’t seem to be able to separate the church from Christ. If the Christ these people purport to believe in actually existed and returned to earth today, I can’t help but think he would run as fast as he could away from organized religion.
My S/O is devout Catholic, utterly disgusted by the Catholic Church for the sexual abuse that it has steeped itself in and for other, personal reasons, yet he goes to Mass faithfully every weekend and makes an offering. I try to explain to him that he doesn’t need a building or a priest or a congregation to practice his religion.
He says, “You don’t understand because you’re not Catholic.”
I say, “It’s a good thing you’re cute, because you have the debating skills of oatmeal.”
burnspbesq
@Chad N Freude:
That’s a pretty broad brush you’re painting with, there. Has it not occurred to you that maybe, just maybe, some people of faith engage in independent, critical analysis of the tenets of their chosen religion? The unthinking, asymmetrical disrespect for people of faith (you can mock me but you’re untouchable? sorry, but no.) is absolutely the worst feature of this commentariat.
Yes, I’m looking at you, geg6. I’m no longer responding to your ridiculous shots at Catholics and Catholicism because you’re incapable of objectivity on the subject, but understand that you are way off base, and however horrible your personal experience may have been, it’s not representative and it doesn’t scale.
brantl
E.D., the “free markets” haven’t been free since anyone started giving a shit what effect they were having on the rest of us.
Real “free markets” are functional piracy, in as vertical an economy as we have in the world today.
“Free markets” worked when anybody, anywhere could get into any business by making all of the means of production themselves, and not any time since.
burnspbesq
@JGabriel:
Are you suggesting that the right has a monopoly on those traits?
It is occasionally useful to judge people as individuals, rather than assuming that they uncritically adopt all of the beliefs of their tribe.
spudvol
E.D.
I forgot to say welcome aboard earlier, so “Welcome aboard.”
I hope you have a thick skin and stick around. One of the things I hate about political blogs is the echo-chamberish effect that eventually makes discussion pointless. I’ll give Cole some credit for this experiment. Now then-
You have posted a few times that you have stated your position and don’t want to discuss abortion any further but, obviously, we do, and as a blogger you probably know how that is going to turn out.
My question-
Person A needs a life-saving transplant of some sort. Person B is the only match. Problem is, Person B refuses to go through with the transplant even knowing Person A will die as a result. Should Person A be able to legally force Person B to go through with the transplant? Does Person A have a legal right to use Person B’s body if Person A’s life is in danger?
If you answer “No”, then no matter what rights you assign to a fetus, those rights will never outweigh the Mother’s right to decide what does and doesn’t take place regarding her body.
JGabriel
Chad N Freude:
I believe it’s possible to be fiscally conservative without buying into it. Oh wait, that’s what most Democrats are. After all, it was Clinton who balanced the budget, while Reagan and Bush II repeatedly shattered all records for increasing US debt.
Of course, right now, even fiscal conservativism is suspect, given the nation’s dire need of stimulus.
Me neither, that’s why I’m asking a conservative how he gets past all of that baggage – assuming he does.
Edited to add: I haven’t read much of Kain’s work. It’s quite possible he would argue with being labelled a conservative (though he didn’t at top), and that I’m asking these questions of the wrong guy,
.
Nerem
Welcome, E.D! The reason we are sharpening our knives isn’t about you at all, I swear! We just have something very large to cut up. To cut. Into smaller pieces.
I swear.
burnspbesq
@brantl:
Nice army of strawmen you’ve got there. Be a shame if a reality-bomb went off in their midst.
No thoughtful person that I know ignores or refuses to acknowledge the existence of market failures, public goods, monopoly power and the abuse thereof, etc. But point me in the direction of a nation-state that in the last 300 years or so has dramatically improved the well-being of the preponderance of its citizens without subjecting a substantial part of its economy to market discipline, and then we’ll talk. Something like a market economy is pretty much automatic if you want to move people beyond subsistence agriculture.
geg6
@E.D. Kain:
Bullshit. I heartily endorse almost everything that is purported to be the philosophy of the guy called Jesus. I’d be very happy indeed if more Americans would actually follow that philosophy. This would be a much, much better place. However, in my lifetime, I don’t remember seeing very many Christians who actually do this. In fact, it is much more often that I see people who subscribe to no church or religion who actually act more in the spirit of said Jesus.
@burnspbesq:
And the joke is on you, lawyer. I actually never had a “horrible” experience with the Church, other than being forced to sit through too many years of listening to their garbage. In fact, I was the luckiest of duckies among my six siblings in that I was the only one not forced into going to parochial school.
I never was and still am not one for fairy tales. Others may differ. However, no one can bash the Catholic Church if the Church does nothing worthy of bashing. I will call out assholes every single time, no matter if they are Catholic, or Muslim, or Scientologists. I may be scathing in my contempt for Catholicism, but I’m not the one here defending a worldwide, child-molesting criminal conspiracy/misogynistic hate group from the likes of little ol’ me. If you can handle the cognitive dissonance and moral ambiguity (to say the least), then more power to you.
danimal
Welcome! I’ve been a lurker at the League of Ordinary Gentlemen for a while and appreciate the civility of the blog.
That said, this blog isn’t known for civility. Good luck with the “no bashing” over here. Hope you have a strong exoskeleton; you’ll need it.
flukebucket
@matoko_chan:
Some may be too stupid and some may be too stubborn. But there was a time when I was part of that base so I know evolution is possible. I will stoke coals in hell before I will vote for a Republican again but it has not always been that way.
matoko_chan
@Hugin & Munin: look…..there is no culture war. there is an evolution of culture event, like glaciation or the extinction event at the K-T boundary. And ED and his ilk are the dinosaurs. They are dead already but their hip-brains don’t know it yet.
kay
Welcome. I read only your immigration piece, and I liked it. It’s honest.
Chad N Freude
@burnspbesq:
I question “independent” in this context. The underlying basic premise of the critical analysis is the unverifiable truth of the religion whose underlying tenets are being critically analyzed. There have been/are serious thinkers who have done this, and they have often arrived at conclusions that are at odds with their organized church. Garry Wills, for one, comes to mind. Nevertheless, they start from a known Revealed Truth.
CrowsSong
@burnspbesq:
That’s fine then.
I can’t speak for Geg6, of course, but as far as I am concerned as long as some reasoning has been employed you aren’t just parroting what your god told you to believe.
I would think stating the reasons that you think God was right, rather than just shouting that he is, would exempt you from the aforementioned broad-brush.
Bill Murray
@burnspbesq: but a market economy is not synonymous with free markets. Free markets have a host of conditions that are not and really can not be attained, so you have at least as much straw as you attribute to others
matoko_chan
@flukebucket: i was a hereditary republican. intelligence self-selects out.
Consider…..for 50 years the conservative base has culled for people that are able to be scammed into voting against their economic self-interest, are highly xenophobic, highly religious, and despise intellectuals, academe and science.
Its like selection for stupid.
burnspbesq
@geg6:
Apparently the notion that some Catholics might feel that the Church is worth saving from the moral rot to which you allude, and are working diligently from within to try and effectuate change (given the nature of the institution, that change may never come, but the effort is worth making) hasn’t occurred to you.
Brian
@Bill Murray: Heh. That phrase caught my eye, as well.
This is the biggest problem with Glibertarianism (aka, conservative Republicanism without the bible-beating): a child-like, uncritical belief in the existence of “free markets,” coupled with a refusal to acknowledge that, in many circumstances, government regulation is required for the preservation of anything even remotely resembling a “free” market.
Bill Murray
@burnspbesq: since the argument specifically mentioned religious arguments, not religious people. Thus whether religious people make arguments from other principles is immaterial to specifically religious arguments
mclaren
@Chad N Freude:
Limited government means reducing the government’s functions to a police escort that protects rich people from uprisings by their slaves.
The free market is as dead as a doornail, like communism. The age of Wikipedia and open source software have proved that capitalism is obsolete. Just as the Soviet Union demonstrated that communism is unworkable, American thievery and pollution and resource strip-mining after the fall of the USSR have proven that free markets are unworkable. Global warming and Peak OIl and the toxic destruction of the biosphere seal the deal.
In the 21st century, either capitalism dies or the planet does. With scientists predicting no fish left in the sea in 50 years and if global warming continues on its current trend no habitable zones for humans inside 500 years, it’s clear that our planet has to develop a no-growth 100% recyclable economy. Since capitalism is based on growth, that’s the end of capitalism. Whatever comes after capitalism will be as unimaginable to us as what came after Soviet communism was the Russians. Either way, within a generation, anyone who advocates free market capitalism will be arrested, tried for the crime of aiding and abetting geocide, and sentenced to death in one of the toxic dead zones created by the soon-to-be-extinct corporate dinosaurs that currently foul our global nest.
Chad N Freude
@spudvol: “My Sister’s Keeper” is a surprisingly good movie about this kind of donor-recipient conflict. Well, the ending gets kind of emotionally soppy, but the moral issue is pretty well presented.
Chad N Freude
@mclaren: Dude, you pointed this one at me, but I didn’t ask the question.
Egilsson
I don’t see how anyone can willingly describe themselves as a “conservative” these days, with all the irresponsible baggage that “conservatives” are freely carrying.
So-called “sane conservatives” have to fight harder against the whackjobs that have taken over the mantle of “conservative” or “republican”.
And they aren’t doing it.
The tea partiers are a bunch of howler monkeys ignorantly flinging feces around while shrieking and yet all these gutless conservatives are humoring their radicalism. Well, they are serious, and “sane conservatives” better take their label back if they want to use it and get taken seriously.
Chad N Freude
@Bill Murray: Thanks. I missed that.
Egilsson
Hey, Kain totally ducked the key question of the day: horde or alliance?
burnspbesq
@CrowsSong:
Entirely apart from whether you consider him to be the Son of God, the recorded teachings of the moral philosopher Jesus of Nazareth resonate with me and intuitively appeal to me as an appropriate set of behavioral norms to which one can usefully aspire.
Which is a roundabout way of saying that if you read the New Testament without worrying about whether it is the Word of God, there’s a system of ethics and morality there that is worthy of consideration.
Corner Stone
@Brian:
“free markets” doesn’t actually mean anything. It’s like “state’s rights”, it’s an epithet for something more disturbing and unacceptable.
If it meant something it could be properly defined. But I seriously doubt you’ll see Mr. Kain attempt that.
mclaren
@E.D. Kain:
No, actually if you follow Christ, today you’re called a Dirty Fucking Hippy Commie Pinko Scumbag Anti-Capitalist Unamerican Enemy Combatant who provides material support to terrorists like Friends of the Earth.
In order to be a Christian, you must vehemently oppose everything Jesus Christ stood for.
If Christ came back today, contemporary Christians would report him to the Department of Homeland Security and he’d be beaten and pepper-sprayed by sadistic screaming cops and then the DHS would drag him away to waterboard his ass for subversion and suspected anti-government activity.
JGabriel
And now, having gone on the attack, let me say something in Kain’s defense: E.D. Kain:
I’m pro-choice, politically and personally. I think a lot of people here are forgetting the “choice” part. As far as I know, being pro-choice encompasses letting people make their own moral decisions about abortion, including to be personally pro-life.
As long as he’s not advocating for the government to outlaw or restrict abortion, is there really a pro-choice argument against him? It looks like, from what Kain said above, that his position is personally pro-life and politically pro-choice, though maybe he wouldn’t characterize it that way.
.
Corner Stone
@burnspbesq:
And how do the tenets of faith respond to critical analysis?
Just Some Fuckhead
OMFG, we are working with a conservative here. We are all Jane Hamsher now.
Chad N Freude
@burnspbesq: The problem, of course is (1) most people don’t worry about whether it is the Word of God, they Know it is, and (2) a lot of them choose to filter the ethics and morality through their prejudices and honor them selectively and/or twist their meanings to fit. Apart from that, I can’t argue with what you say.
JGabriel
@burnspbesq:
Yes, it is. That’s why I ask, instead of ignoring him completely.
.
me
@Just Some Fuckhead: Working with or piling on?
orogeny
Hmmm…E.D.Kain…you’re the guy who insists that the Tea Party movement does not have a significant element of racism as part of its reason for existence. Yep, just a bunch of outraged constitutional scholars.
Chad N Freude
OMG, can’t you all see what Cole has done here? He has deliberately introduced a new voice to precipitate thoughtful discussion. This is totally contrary to the well-known BJ traditions! He’s trying to destroy his own blog!
spudvol
@me:
If he survives the first 24 hours it’s all uphill from there.
Corner Stone
@E.D. Kain:
So when’s the divorce scheduled for court?
pk
What is that even supposed to mean! I read you for the first time when Andrew Sullivan linked to you with the abortion-slavery link.
If you can write with all honesty that “Women already have choice over what happens to their bodies. They can choose to not have sex or, more practically, they can choose to use birth control” then you are full of crap! I just love these asinine right wing arguments. You really think 12-13 yr old girls in Africa, Asia, and Middle East married to senile old men have control over their bodies or can choose birth control. Or are your arguments confined to the North-American continent and Europe?.
And you are going to be a regular writer on the blog. This place is going to hell!
By the way-Welcome!
bago
I believe sir Humpty had the nomenclature down. “Just let me introduce myself, My name is Humpty, pronounced with an ‘umpty'”.
And all the bloggers in the top 10, please allow me to bump thee.
RareSanity
Bwaaahaahaa…
At Balloon-Juice (much like in Mother Russia), you do not stir pot on those subjects, the pot stirs you!
Welcome anyway, though. I’m sure you will find that community here will be most welcoming and, will engage you in only the most intellectually challenging, yet respectful means possible.
(snickers)
Corner Stone
@spudvol:
He writes for the Washington Examiner and IIRC is a self described conservative. His internal LA-LA-LA soundtrack goes up to 11.
schrodinger's cat
Couldn’t Tunch have blogged in Cole’s absence, I think he would make more sense.
Calming Influence
Welcome, E.D.! I’m looking forward to challenging your views in an intellectually stimulating way! For instance, Lost sucks. What do you think about that, huh?
geg6
@burnspbesq:
Oh, I know that. Tilting at windmills has always been the hallmark of Catholics who use a brain cell or two. And the effort is now paying off wondrously what with the Vatican declaring that endorsing the idea of the ordination of women is worse or equal to the systematic, decades long abuse of children.
cbsnews.com/stories/2010/07/20/world/main6695447.shtml
Corner Stone
@Chad N Freude:
Thoughtful discussion was when he brought mistermix on board to post multiple Apple v The World troll posts.
This…this isn’t going to be half as productive as that.
geg6
@burnspbesq:
There is nothing in this statement with which I would disagree. I could bait you here and mention that, if it was up to the Catholic Church, this would not be possible unless you had a very good knowledge of Latin and were wealthy enough to buy the books the good monks illuminate for a living.
But I won’t. ;-)
Corner Stone
@bago: I would’ve preferred it if Cole had asked Big Daddy Kane to front page.
Catsy
@E.D. Kain:
See, now this is an entirely sensible way to be anti-abortion, to the extent that such is possible. And it’s really all that anyone can ask of someone who fundamentally disagrees with your life decisions: you’re free to disagree, but you’re not free to take that decision away from others.
I think Catholocism is a dangerous authoritarian cult, a form of mental and emotional abuse when inflicted on children too young to make their own informed decisions, and on the balance is a malignant influence without which the world would be far better off. I would throw a house party to celebrate if the Vatican ceased to exist and Catholics worldwide renounced their faith in favor of something less toxic, like maybe Scientology. But I appreciate that not everyone feels that way, and I am not in favor of outlawing it or any other similarly toxic ideology.
So I think we understand each other.
That sentence would have been unobjectionable without the word “more”. Breitbart was wrong to publish the video; the government was wrong to fire her–and they were both wrong for different reasons and in entirely different ways. You simply can’t compare them on any level.
This sounds great, but it has nothing to address the question of what happens when the choice is between deficit spending to keep bad things from happening, and fiscal discipline that allows bad things to happen. The fact is that there are times when accruing debt is the less bad alternative, when it is necessary to spend money you can’t afford in order to keep a bad problem from getting much worse. Medical conditions that become life-threatening if untreated are such a circumstance–and so is high structural unemployment.
It also doesn’t address the elephant in the room: the fact that the last Democratic administration did, in fact, do exactly what you prescribe. There was an economic boom–your “good times”–and rather than validating the conservative myth of “tax and spend” Democrats, the Clinton administration left a surplus to the Bush administration. And we all know what happened next: the “spend and spend” Republicans got control of the purse.
It occurs to me as I write this that you did not at any point mention whether you aligned yourself with the Democratic or Republican parties, only that you considered yourself conservative. As such I may be wrongly assuming a dichotomy between your conservative views and the overwhelmingly fiscally irresponsible Republican party. I’ve got nothing against fiscal conservatives per se, though I disagree with some of their policies. But any fiscal conservative who’s still a Republican is either not paying attention or cares more about their party than their principles.
Death Panel Truck
All I want to know is: were you around when Jesus Christ had his moment of doubt and pain?
Did you make damned sure that Pilate washed his hands, and sealed his fate?
schrodinger's cat
Are we also going to discuss mass less strings and pt objects? What does limited government even mean? Also, how do you define fiscal discipline?
roshan
@RareSanity:
LOL
flukebucket
@Corner Stone:
I’m enjoying the hell out of it so far.
JGabriel
RareSanity:
You know, in a way, that’s actually true – if you think about the number of conservatives who have become centrist or liberal Democrats after passing through the fire here.
.
srv
@burnspbesq:
Has it ever occurred to you that most people don’t?
matoko_chan
@Egilsson: I SAID he doesn’t play the Game.
Only liberals like Cole, Aziz P, and TNC play WoW.
“conservatives” only play single player shooters.
JGabriel
E.D. Kain (via Catsy):
Oh yes, there’s that wonderful conservative tradition of personal responsibility: the government is more wrong.
Sloppy, Kain, very sloppy.
.
RareSanity
@Corner Stone:
If I understand his monologues correctly he is ready, able and willing…
roshan
@schrodinger’s cat:
What does limited government mean?
JGabriel
@matoko_chan:
Also, people who can’t afford, or don’t want to pay, monthly subscription fees for a video game.
.
matoko_chan
@JGabriel: how about, Kain supported the fetus=slave meme when Sully gave the retard that said it a Malkin award?
This guy is Douthat lite.
Another misogynistic creeper that wants women to stfu and breed.
matoko_chan
@JGabriel: true dat.
besides, anti-intellectual troglodytes sukk at theorycrafting.
;)
srv
@burnspbesq:
I’d like some independent numbers on that, and some critical analysis of their methods. How many do you have signed up for this? What’s the budget? What is the strategy, specifically, for affecting change? How often do y’all meet, how are you organized, what are your tenents, and who are you meeting with?
Chad N Freude
@JGabriel: Do we have a count? Is it greater than zero?
Chad N Freude
Renters?
ksmiami
I’m gone 5 minutes and the long knives come out… well, Mr. Kain, it was nice meeting you while it lasted…
Bill E Pilgrim
@Jim Pharo:
Nor do I know of any conservatives who actually favor limited government. They favor spending government money on different things, like wars, instead of on social services. The things they favor, military spending in the billions, eavesdropping and wiretapping, all could be called “big government” just as much as anything else could. It’s just big in different areas.
Even the basic notion that conservatives in power want to “spend less” goes against the evidence in plain view. Reagan and Bush spent more than any Democrat before them, and during much of Bush’s term, both houses of Congress were controlled by Republicans also.
The argument you’ll hear often in response to this, “Yes okay, but real conservatives don’t want these things” is a classic “No True Scotsman” fallacy.
Yes, and real Communism was never tried either, and if it had would have worked out perfectly. Yes we’ve heard it all before.
matoko_chan
@ksmiami: i predict Cornerstone and the General are going to make this guy cry on his first day and im going to be wearing his intellectual guts for garters by the time Cole gets back.
If there’s anything i loathe more than misogynistic creeper Ross Douthat its a Ross Douthat fanboi.
Chuck
I’ve yet to meet anyone who – first crack of the bat – brags about not owning a television who isn’t totally and utterly full of shit.
This blog need less not more writers or at least separate RSS feeds for the more discerning readers.
EconWatcher
Welcome! As someone a tad to the right of center (relative to this blog, that is) I particularly look forward to your commentary.
Be ready for some abuse. It’s mostly good-natured.
Ash Can
LOL! The usual screamers are out in force on the first post? Wow. An auspicious beginning indeed. However, I suspect from your sensible and low-key remarks here there won’t be nearly as much fireworks over your subsequent posts. Welcome.
Corner Stone
@Chuck:
Agreed. It’s like owning a fridge. Almost everyone has one. Some use it more than others. It’s a ubiquitous appliance that you get out what you put into it.
What kind of asshole would say they don’t have need for a fridge?
suzanne
You listen to The National? We’ll be friends. Even if you’re wrong. ;)
Welcome.
Corner Stone
@Bill E Pilgrim:
Ahhh, to be back in the days of prima nocta.
Corner Stone
@RareSanity: I understand he believes ain’t no half steppin’, young gifted and black as well.
There’s also the fact that it’s undeniably true B.D. Kane has a more sound fundamental grasp of markets and microeconomics than E.D. Kain.
eemom
@Corner Stone:
oh fer fuck’s sake. I know you hate everybody but what have you got against Eskimos?
ksmiami
@matoko_chan: shark tank – drunk tank – I think Mr. Kain is in for a rough swim considering that this site is made up of mostly center-smart people who have REJECTED modern conservatism wholeheartedly as a chimera philosophy that masks a truly hateful agenda (warmongering, greed, strangely puritanical-authoritative instincts and bigotry). I think the majority of BJers have seen behind the conservatism curtain and realized it is a pretty ugly and debasing scene. Now, this is not to say that you should not be cautious and move slowly in terms of implementing policy and that Federalism is a good mechanism for this, but the reality is we have a temperamentally conservative president faced with enormous challenges and a DOGMATIC opposition party that seeks only power and not solutions.
Bill E Pilgrim
@Corner Stone:
I don’t know about your refrigerator but for mine that’s definitely not true.
I routinely put in fresh, healthy, food and take out putrid, rotting science experiments. Sometimes months later. Maybe I should give it more time.
Corner Stone
@eemom: I know people who could sell a fridge to an eskimo, nothing against them.
And I just have a problem with ignorant amoral idjits such as yourself.
suzanne
@JGabriel:
None of them characterize it that way. Methinks it’s because some of them can’t let go of the “pro-life” label in their own minds. It seems to be this very irrational, personal need to dodge the issue rather than be seen publicly aligning with the dirty liberal feminist rabble. Maybe it’s a CYA.
Whatever it is, it pisses me off. It’s important, what words mean, and which words once chooses to use. And “choice” means exactly that, free of coercion, religious, economic, governmental, or otherwise.
Genine
I added the bold to what I think is the relevant point.
I have no argument with that. I can appreciate the fact that someone may be personally anti-choice, but doesn’t want to impose that belief on others by making it law. I also appreciate the fact that you’re anti-war and anti-death penalty. At least there’s some consistency in belief. It’s truly crazy to hear anti-choicers howl about the sacredness of some zygotes but advocate the blowing up of actual people.
I don’t agree with your stance, E.D., but it makes sense from a certain POV (that I don’t share).
I welcome you aboard and look forward to checking out what you have to say.
matoko_chan
@Ash Can:
i wouldn’t bet on it. im sharpening my wtsai and my kindjal as you speak.
i’d make a run for it while you still can, Kain.
Morbo
@Chuck: And he probably even prefers the American version of The Office.
Corner Stone
@Bill E Pilgrim: Well, I also said “some use it more than others” but I think your response is a good furtherance of my spotty TV analogy.
Rotted mess is one possible outcome with either appliance.
matoko_chan
@Genine:
but Kain’s position doesn’t make any sense at all.
He wants to restrict abortion but not fertility therapy creation of fetus-slaves destined for terminal cryostasis. He thinks abortion is murder but declines to either try to persuade women not to have abortions or prosecute them for murder when they do…instead preferring “legal restrictions”.
He says women have a choice about having sex but raped women don’t. Can raped women have abortions then? Because that would still be murder.
Hes a flaming hypocrite and a slimy misogynistic creeper just like Douthat.
suzanne
@Genine:
But if you don’t want to impose your belief on others by making it law, and instead allow them to decide for themselves, even if you personally would make a different decision, *then you are pro-choice*. That’s what that “choice” word MEANS.
The fact that so many people, including Mr. Kain here, refuse to use that word drives me over the fucking edge. It’s disingenuous bullshit, because by avoiding the term, they allow the viewpoint of their “opposition” (which actually believes the same thing they do, but has the courage of their own conviction to say so) to be mischaracterized. Fucking cowardice.
burnspbesq
@srv:
Like, duuuhh. Way to belabor the obvious. They’re not me. And I’m not them.
And in response to somebody else, I fail to see any contradiction in being anti-abortion and pro-choice. The Establishment Clause, praise the FSM, ensures that I don’t get to cram my religious views down your throat, and vice versa. The religion clauses protect both freedom of religion and freedom from religion. And that’s as it should be.
Catsy
@matoko_chan:
Okay, points granted for the obscure Kzinti reference.
burnspbesq
@matoko_chan:
“im sharpening my wtsai and my kindjal as you speak.”
Fearsome, you are.
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.
schrodinger's cat
I just checked the link to the League of Ordinary Gentlemen, what’s with the bowler hat? The very first post had the words nanny state and tribal liberal warfare or some such nonsense ( I don’t think it was written by Kain). I didn’t bother to read much further. I guess this is what passes for sane, when insane=wingnut event horizon
TooManyJens
It’s refreshing to have company. I realize you said that you don’t want to get into the “culture wars”, but if you are also for sane policies on contraception and sex ed, I shall be overjoyed indeed.
JGabriel
@matoko_chan:
That was just stupid. It (defending the comparison of a fetus to a slave, which he didn’t believe either) was a dumb argument, and it was a dumb argument to get into – what’s the point of defending someone against a blogger giving them a “Malkin Award” on the premise that, while dumb, they’re not quite as dumb as Malkin?
It’s a perfect example of responding to something trivial far too seriously. Which every single commenter here, including me, has done repeatedly. I’m doing it right now.
So, it’s not really something I can hold against him.
Hell, at least Kain agrees that a Malkin award is a thing not to be desired. A TRUE Conservative would have argued that Malkin is the greatest and the recipient should be PROUD.
.
JGabriel
@Chad N Freude:
For the front-pagers, at least two: Cole himself, and Michael D.
There’s no count on the commenters, but a fair number are ex-conservatives, and, for some of them, Balloon Juice was part of their conversion arc.
.
Genine
@matoko_chan:
That is the part I am referring to. From what I understand, he is not in favor of outlawing abortion, though he is personally against it. Now the thing about women having a choice as in not have sex or use birth control (What if the birth control fails?) is total bullshit, imo, but that’s why I disagree with it.
I have people in my life that hold the same view as Mr. Kain. They even go further and believe in providing health care and financial help for women to help with any unplanned pregnancies. And they are also consistently “pro-life” across the board: Universal (or accessible) health care, anti-war, anti-death penalty, social programs to provide jobs, food and shelter to women, etc. (If Mr. Kain is for “limited government”, then he is probably NOT in favor of social programs to help women have babies HE thinks they should have. ;-))
Their view is based on a genuine belief that a zygote is just as important as an actual woman. I, whole-heartedly, do NOT agree with this. But, if that is one’s mindset, then I can understand where they are coming from- even if where they are coming from is Crazy Town.
LikeableInMyOwnWay
Yeah, when I hear “free markets” I think of Massey Energy and British Petroleum. Those are good all around examples of unfettered commerce at work.
Limited government? Sort of a no brainer, almost all sane people see limits to government. The money is on where to place the limits, not on whether to have them.
Fiscal discipline? Sure. All for it. A good example of fiscal discipline would be to let the Bush tax cuts expire, and stop the unwarranted drain on the nation’s finances during a period of war and economic stress. We need a strong, do-something government that can respond to this situation and not go into the abyss of Republican debtor prison to get that response.
The right has turned into a bunch of shills for its own brand of big government (spending on things the right wants) without paying for them (tax cuts for their benefactors). No thanks. I have a low tolerance for liars and thieves.
eemom
@Corner Stone:
Actually, I think it’s pretty obvious to anyone with any sense that I’m not amoral and I’m not an idiot.
Equally is it obvious that you, for reasons unknown, are a freakishly embittered misanthrope who gets off on insulting strangers.
Did you say you have a kid? God help the child. I hope he has at least one normal parent and some other decent people in his life.
Genine
@suzanne:
Oh, I agree with you about the word usage. But some people need to put things a certain way for a myriad of reasons.
And, I hope Mr. Kain has some sane thoughts on contraception and sex ed., since he is so against abortion.
LikeableInMyOwnWay
I don’t care what anyone’s “position” on abortion might be. The whole point of “choice” in the phrase “pro choice” is that the choice is personal.
You can have any position you want, just keep it to yourself and let others make their own choices. If you want to preach at people to tell them how to live their lives, we have buildings for that, called churches. Knock yourself out. Stay out of my government.
I also have no patience for men who want to tell women how to manage their own reproductive systems. All choice-life rules should be made only by women. I think that will settle the issue once and for all.
MFarme
Is this some kind of test to see if political harmony is possible? Because if it is, I don’t want to have anything to do with it. If any liberal here tries to find common ground, I swear I’ll throw up. I’m a classical liberal, in other words a “real” liberal (yes, I said real, but then it’s all relative, isn’t it?), but I’d hate to see anyone suckered into harmony.
You might think I’m kidding, but then you might think a lot of things, like Professor Irwin Corey shouldn’t have accepted Pynchon’s award, or you might not even know anything about that. My point is that just because harmony might be possible doesn’t mean I won’t throw up.
I’ll come back to see how things turn out, but I doubt I will enjoy any of it — not that any of you care — I’m just saying…
LikeableInMyOwnWay
@Corner Stone:
My mother wouldn’t use an electric can opener because she was sure it leaked electricity when she wasn’t using it.
Not owning a tv is right there on my list of things that remind me of my mother. When her 1960’s tv finally died, she insisted on getting a tv that did not have a remote control. I had to tell her that they no longer make tvs without remote controls. So we got one.
Then she would call me up and say things like “This damned remote is broken again. I can’t get the Suns game.” I’d say, what Suns game? Then she would go silent for a minute, and come back … “Sorry, I was looking at yesterday’s paper.”
But even with all that, my mom had the GOOD SENSE TO BE A GODDAM DEMOCRAT, for crissakes.
matoko_chan
@Genine: in the sully piece i linked he advocates “limited restriction of abortions”.
his position is a word salad of self-negating base pandering.
don’t be fooled, Gen, we have higher standards here.
gil mann
Agreed, but it’s usually a signifier of left-wing douchebaggery, so maybe he’s capable of throwing the occasional curveball.
matoko_chan
@eemom: hey, eemom, would you apolo to Assange please?
You were wrong about the 15k docs he kept back.
gil mann
i didn’t do it
grumpy realist
Welcome! Imagine us as the rowdy equivalent of a physics seminar audience and you’ll do fine. Proposed policies which do not have roots in reality are dissected mercilessly. (Anyone remember the Fair Tax thread? Man, that was EPIC…)
LikeableInMyOwnWay
@grumpy realist:
What was really interesting about the Fair Tax threads was that the guy who seemed to have brought up the idea and said he favored the Fair Tax never made a single argument or assertion of fact that supported the view, to my knowledge.
He just “liked” the idea, the way you might “like” something on Facebook, and that was that. Logic, rationale, economic model, discussions of various taxation schemes and their merits and demerits …. booo-ring. Just liked it.
HyperIon
@suzanne:
Bravo, suzanne.
you win the thread.
the guy is pro-choice…just not clever enough to realize it.
nepat
@mclaren:
Don’t forget tasing! And releasing deceptively edited video to Fox of the Sermon on the Mount.
roshan
I have never understood why pro-choice always means “mandatory abortions for everyone” to conservatives.
NobodySpecial
@JGabriel: And some of them only changed their spots in a couple of areas and are still at the core chanting Republican themes and bashing hippies.
suzanne
@roshan:
Because it’s an effective way of making sure people know that you don’t stand with those uppity feminazis who think that they deserve, like, to leave the house, or those beta male libtards who are really secretly gay. It’s also incredibly disingenuous, and anyone with an ounce of intellectual integrity wouldn’t stand for it.
Fallsroad
@E.D. Kain:
I have to wonder about this. Are you telling us that if “sane conservatives” were in power at the federal level and times, as you say, were good, that they would be content to allow government to build up any cushion at all?
Government surplus of any kind is, according to every conservative I’ve read the last 30 years, grounds for massive tax cuts, usually far disproportionate to the surplus in question – see Bush.
Always.
Since the conservative position is that taxation=theft, are you prepared to defend the idea of government running and maintaining a surplus in good times in order to spend during bad? How is this politically feasible?
MFA
@burnspbesq:
Yeah, let’s give the faithful a second 1,700 years to clean it up. Rome wasn’t reformed in a day, you know.
Morbo
@roshan:
Kang: Abortions for all.
[crowd boos]
Very well, no abortions for anyone.
[crowd boos]
Hmm… Abortions for some, miniature American flags for others.
[crowd cheers and waves miniature flags]
Batocchio
Welcome!
Well, all that and giving a damn about civil rights are points in your favor… Like Brad Hanon upthread, my favorite Culture novels are The Player of Games and Use of Weapons, but I’ve read most of Banks’ sci-fi and some of his straight fiction.
plasticgoat
A sane republican? I can’t believe there is such a thing. I have seen no evidence of one in almost 10 years.
Corner Stone
@eemom:
I don’t think you want to put that to a vote here.
Xanthippas
@grumpy realist:
Let’s not overrate the audience here.
handy
Very late to this welcome party as always. I didn’t you know who you were so I googled you and the first few hits were to some conservatard site called americanpowerblog. Tell me, what the hell did you do to this guy? Sounds like a love spat to me.
eemom
@Corner Stone:
Sure I would. Among the subset of “here” which encompasses people with sense.
Look, pathological asshole, I’ve honestly tried to play nice with you before, but now I’m done. Let’s just not talk to each other any more, k?
Ben JB
@E.D. Kain, #99:
Thanks for the response, though I wasn’t so much wanting to kick up this conversation again (though now I see that you’ve got a new post on it at your place, so I’ll go post there).
I brought up those two recent posts not to criticize your view of what it means to be Christian or what it means to be against abortion, but to point out two examples of where you weren’t doing the best job of being in the conversation as you could’ve done.
In the Abortion=Slavery case, I don’t mean anything more than what you admit in your recent post: it’s an analogy that’s more likely to increase divisions–which is what the Malkin award is for. You may wish to discuss why it’s still a useful analogy for some reason, but that doesn’t change what you and Sully agree on–that it the analogy increases divisions. And that’s what the Malkin award is for.
In the case of Anne Rice leaving Christianity for Christ, that may not make sense to you at first, but I think it wouldn’t take much time for you to work it out and to post some questions based on the (imho) obvious interpretation. Or, at the very least, if you don’t understand something, you can ask a question about it (i.e., you could’ve posted to your educated commentariat, “What does Anne Rice mean about leaving Christianity for Christ’s sake?”), rather than jump off into pontificating about culture war politics in religion and trying to cover yourself with talk about how certain religious-political formations are just “historical accidents.”
I know that blogging is real-time, often, and I appreciate your thoughts and even your confusion; but I think a more useful interlocutor is also the one who is more generous towards the ideas of another.
(Which I suppose could be followed by “he said unironically, as he gave an ungenerous interpretation to Kain’s posts.”)
burnspbesq
@LikeableInMyOwnWay:
You were doing just fine until you got to that point. That, however, is emphatically not what the First Amendment says.
The Establishment Clause bans a state-supported church. It does not preclude people of faith from expressing positions on matters of public interest that are rooted in their faith. You don’t get to shut me up, any more than I get to shut you up, and I am not required to leave my beliefs out of the public square. If you think my beliefs are a crock and that allowing them to influence policy would be contrary to the general welfare, well … that, in part, is why we have elections. You can try to convince people that my beliefs are a crock and should not be allowed to influence policy, but you can’t prevent me from having those beliefs and you can’t prevent me from expressing them or attempting to convince others that they are beliefs worth having, and you can’t prevent them from influencing how I vote or how I try to influence public policy.
Nut up and fight me on the merits. What are you afraid of?
Midnight Marauder
@E.D. Kain:
Surely, you jest. I mean…really?
REALLY?!
Fallsroad
@Midnight Marauder:
He isn’t kidding. Government is the ultimate evil, which makes Breitbart’s naked, pernicious racism somehow less evil than an agency over reacting to an intentionally false story.
srv
@burnspbesq:
I see, and from your response I assume English is your first language.
So why is it that anyone who thinks that is painting with a “pretty broad brush” as you so enlightenedtly tried to put it? Or perhaps you could explain how a majority is a narrow brush? Or are you just projecting?
asiangrrlMN
@suzanne: I agree with this. He is pro-choice if he doesn’t believe in outlawing abortion. That’s kinda the point of choice.
Welcome, E.D. I am already suspicious because you have neither cat nor dog, but I will try to tamp that down and wait and see. Seriously, though, you are going to have to do some heavy tap-dancing on the limited-government (when it’s been the Republican presidents who have spent like drunken sailors on leave, to use your term) and the lucid reasons for supporting free market in order to convince me that either idea is worth a shit. However, you seem like a rational sort, so I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. For now.
@Midnight Marauder: Oh, and yeah, what he said about the quote. More? Really? The government was more wrong? I don’t think so.
Corner Stone
@eemom:
You’re done with what? Being an idiot? Or an amoral douchebag?
I doubt either of those conditions are true so stop whingeing and expect me.
burnspbesq
@srv:
You’re either not as smart as you think you are or you’re pretending to be obtuse in order to make a point. I don’t have time to figure out which. Enjoy the rest of your day.
Corner Stone
@LikeableInMyOwnWay: Not sure how her owning a TV reminds you of people who didn’t have a TV.
WTS, she intrigues me. Were there perhaps any newsletters she was fond of I could subscribe to?
Midnight Marauder
@Fallsroad:
Sadly, I am very aware of his seriousness. But, I mean…WOW. I was fucking floored to read that. I was pretty dubious when Cole mentioned he had a “sane conservative” on deck for this place, because that’s about the same as him saying he’s going to be letting Pegasus guest post here for the week. It’s the stuff of delusions. But to have the audacity to say that intentional slander of a civil rights hero and the subsequent sociopathic, intellectually dishonest defense of it is less abominable than this woman losing her job as a result of this deliberate smear campaign…un-fucking-believable.
I was already dubious about this guy, knowing his history. But after this? What substantial difference is there from this guy with the standard Republicans of the day who lack the ability to repudiate the racebaiting and increasing bigotry their party is pursuing? He really can’t say that Breitbart’s actions were more heinous than Vilsack failing to do due diligence on a known propagandist before firing Shirley Sherrod?
What a fucking joke.
roshan
@Corner Stone:
Thanks for throwing some light re: eemom. It helps to not have some discussions with some people all the time.
roshan
@suzanne:
The option of pro-life is a subset within the option of pro-choice. Why conservatives keep arguing that they are both mutually exclusive is simply beyond me.
Fallsroad
@Midnight Marauder:
Conservatives who either consider themselves libertarians or claim such leanings have an enormous blind spot – the unshakable belief that government is, in all cases, the fundamental evil force destroying freedom in our country. All else flows from that, some of it occasionally nuanced for audiences who do not hold that same belief, but it is all bullshit.
Corner Stone
@burnspbesq: Shorter burnspbesq: srv’s point about the majority being equivalent to the definition of broad is irrefutable. Exit stage left.
eemom
@Corner Stone:
ah, so little “liberal” is your template, I see. That figures.
Accusations of “amorality” can’t possibly come naturally to someone who spews hatred as constantly as you do.
Now fuck off, psycho-twerp. I’m done with YOU.
Corner Stone
@eemom: Why so much anger? I agree with you on the flotilla incident. Those fucking scumbags should have never been in international water to begin with. And they sure as shit should not have turned their backs to the Israel commandos during a live fire boarding and capture. They totally deserved to get shot 4 or 5 times in the back and head. Innocent? My fat aunt fanny!
How dare they??
Chad N Freude
@burnspbesq:
But I can have you tortured and/or executed for your beliefs. Oh, sorry, for a minute I thought I was in 15th Century Spain. Never mind.
flukebucket
@LikeableInMyOwnWay:
I have never understood men who get all lathered up about the abortion issue. Hell, out in the wild the Dad will eat the damn cubs if given half a chance. So it seems to me from an evolutionary standpoint that men just would not really give a shit.
gex
No mention of the right’s big winner this last decade? You totally cool with how they treat gays? Perhaps you think the anti-death penalty covers it, but there are plenty of conservatives who’d be happy to merely jail gays. Maybe it doesn’t even merit a mention.
I mean, it’s not like this needs “refudiation”.
burnspbesq
@Chad N Freude:
That’s actually pretty funny. Well played.
MTiffany
Welcome aboard. But if you’re sane, you couldn’t possibly be what passes for a ‘conservative’ these days.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Corner Stone: Never rassle with a pig. You both get dirty and the pig likes it. Now I am DONE with YOU for the fifteenth and last time.
DickSpudCouchPotatoDetective
@burnspbesq:
I’m not sure what point you are making, or that you know either, or that even if you do, it has anything to do with my point, which you clearly didn’t get, although I might not have explained it at the grade level you are operating at.
Got all that? Okay, that said, what I am saying is, I just don’t care what your views are on abortion. I don’t consider the matter to be a valid one for government to be involved in. This has nothing to do with religion. My reference to churches was that if you want to tell others how to lead their lives, churches are for that. Government is for facilitating the possibility that people can lead their lives as they wish, particularly as it applies to matters that are private. Such as whether I can get a medical procedure done, for example, which is what an abortion is.
If that doesn’t make sense to you, just forget it. I can’t make it any clearer and I am not interested in your view anyway.
DickSpudCouchPotatoDetective
@burnspbesq:
Heh. I am still doing fine. You should see what I got done today.
DickSpudCouchPotatoDetective
@Corner Stone:
Um, this will come as a shock, but luddites are not all exactly alike.
Well, they are on Mars. But, anyway.
My mother was against electricity, but tolerated it to watch tv for some reason. I think she had a crush on Eric Sevareid.
Anyway, as backward as she was, she wasn’t obstinate enough to be a damned Republican. I mean, how stupid do you have to be to vote with a party that sucks up to people who think the earth is 6000 fucking years old?
burnspbesq
@DickSpudCouchPotatoDetective:
Umm, who invited you to insert yourself into likeable’s and my conversation? I was responding to likeable. If likeable sees fit to respond, cool. You may fuck off with all deliberate speed. Your mother was a hamster, and your father smelled of elderberries.
matoko_chan
@Corner Stone: im still waiting for eemom to apolo to Assange.
will it happen?
Corner Stone
@Just Some Fuckhead: I don’t care what you say. I will not stop til I get lipstick on her.
Corner Stone
@DickSpudCouchPotatoDetective:
I don’t know but I believe this blog is a good place to start figuring that out.
From a non-random sample it seems the answer is ~ pretty fucking stupid.
Triassic Sands
So much for your being one of the sane conservatives if being “pro-life across the board” means anything like what it sounds like it means.
Surely, “across the board” sounds suspiciously like “without exception” and anyone who is pro-life, i.e., anti-abortion, without exception is not sane.
E.D. Kain
Goodness. I can’t keep up with you all. Let me answer a few questions:
First of all – I love pets. It’s just hard to have pets, find a good place to rent, and have kids all at once. Someday we plan on having lots of pets. At least two. My in-laws have horses and dogs and cats. I’m more of a dog person than a cat person; my wife is the opposite. Some day we will have cats.
Second – I think that part of the problem here is that we speak a different language on many of these issues. When I talk about limited government, I’m not saying we should do away with safety nets – I’m saying we should keep government from spying on us, sending us to futile wars, and using our tax dollars to line the pockets of special interest groups. You all seem to take issue with ‘free markets’ but – as someone pointed out earlier – we don’t really have free markets. We have a lot of crony capitalism. We have huge corporations explicitly backed by the US government. Let’s limit the state’s ability to intervene on behalf of big corporate interests.
Third – Lost does not suck.
Fourth – to whoever commented about the Americanpowerblog guy – the dude is off his rocker. You want insane conservative, he’s the guy for you. Literally the craziest blogger on the internet. Makes Glenn Beck look like Mother Theresa. Seriously. Go read and be amazed.
Fifth – I do not support outlawing abortion. I support a woman’s right to choose. I am also against abortion personally. I find this consistent. I am also against the death penalty and stupid wars. And torture.
Sixth – honestly, I thought the ‘not owning a TV’ fact was just one more little thing I could say about myself. I could just as easily have said “I own a bike” but it wouldn’t have gotten me to the bit about Lost and the Office.
Seventh – I don’t think government is ‘evil’ at all. It’s just got a great deal of potential to do harm, or to calcify harm. If you don’t believe me go back in time to 2003. It’s called the Iraq War. Or to the bailouts and the revolving door between wall street and washington. It’s not that government is evil or bad or any of that. It’s that it is so easily abused to empower special interests and the powerful at the expense of everyone else.
I could go on.
Oh – that’s right – Horde, definitely. But I don’t have time to play MMO’s anymore. I was always more of a TF2 fan anyways.
mclaren
@burnspbesq:
Yes indeedy, “Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s, and render unto God that which is God’s.”
This is known as “Vichy French collaboration,” and the people who practiced it were called Quislings in Norway. People who followed that “system of ethics and morality” tended to get hung for crimes against humanity after the war.
BTW, E.D., nobody gives a shit about abortion anymore. That’s like gay marriage and flag-burning. It’s done. That’s a non-issue now. We’ve got global warming, Peak Oil, torture, the assassination of American citizens without charges and without a warrant, cops murdering kids on bicycles in in broad daylight by tasering ’em and then running ’em over, the militarization of America, endless foreign wars the U.S. can’t win, an out-of-control broken medical-industrial complex, a collapsing economy that keeps shipping all its jobs overseas, the vampire squid called Wall Street clamped like a facehugger over America and sucking its life blood out, and a disintegrating middle class.
At this point, abortion is on the back burner. People are worried about losing their homes and becoming homeless. People are frantically buying Pita Pit franchises so their college-educated kids can have a job. Abortion? Who gives a fat rat’s ass? That young girl people used to argue about getting an abortion, she’s on the edge of becoming homeless now because she just graduated from high school and can’t afford college and there are 6 job seekers for ever job. People are worried about their children starving on the streets. People are worried about living in boxes near freeway underpasses when their job evaporates. Abortion isn’t even on the radar scope.
Corner Stone
@E.D. Kain:
I think the problem is you are using catchphrases or epithets that have distinct connotations to right wing talking points.
When you use “limited government” or “free market” we here all know those terms don’t have actual definitional meaning but rather are handy stand-ins for long term goals of Republicans and conservatives.
And as to this:
This is THE quintessential defining difference between left and right. IMO, I believe government can be a force for good in peoples’ lives and have lived the benefit of that helping hand. Help that only government was capable of providing.
People who have your view of government, and use the talking point shorthand you use are called Republicans around my neck of the woods.
E.D. Kain
@Corner Stone: Are you so sure that the language you’re speaking isn’t full of your own unintended left-wing catch phrases?
Corner Stone
@E.D. Kain:
Yes. I am quite sure. When I speak of helping people I do not say “Embiggen Government”.
And when I speak about regulation it’s to a specific purpose to either change an unintended outcome, or prevent certain possible outcomes. It’s not overly broad as to be meaningless and it’s not a panacea.
There aren’t a lot of code words for the kinds of policies and outcomes I prefer. Because it isn’t necessary to attempt to trick people into liking the idea of receiving fair and equal treatment.
But please, give me an example of some leftwing catch phrase.