Joe Klein has a solid, heartfelt apology for his role in promoting the Iraq War. It’s good as far as these things go, but it really doesn’t matter; the media failure on the Iraq War was systemic not personal.
All the stars aligned in favor of the Iraq War: so-called liberal commentators were for it in order to seem tough, the think tanks were for it because their benefactors were for it, the Likud lobby was for it because they thought it would be good for Israel, the cable networks for it because they thought it would be good for ratings. Pundits who argued in favor it have seen their stars rise, pundits who argued against it have seen their stars fall. There was a massive professional incentive for media types to favor it; maybe one or two, like Klein, who realized it might not be such a great idea, could have spoken out against it more forcefully. But in the end, people will do what they think is their own interests, and supporting the war was clearly in the best interests of elite media types. And, yes, the tendency to follow one’s own interests, the rest of the world be damned, is especially pronounced among careerists.
The Iraq War completely changed my view of American politics and media. Before it, I subscribed to a neo-Brooksian view of reasonably competent elites doing more or less what they thought was right; after it, I can only believe that we are ruled by incompetents and sociopaths.
This why I can’t subscribe to Erki’s view that establishment media types should keep jerking each other off and praising Megan McArdle.
General Stuck
I guess that about leaves Hillary as the last holdout for a mea culpa from the dlc crowd. Maybe she’ll leave it in her will.
pablo
And that is why Krugman shines on.
Warren Terra
Erki s/b Erik (unless it really is some guy or gal named Erki; isn’t there a moderately Finn or two named Erkki?)
eemom
…..baby blue? I prefer Van Morrison’s version to Dylan’s.
Or is it the Stones, I used to love her, but….
Cacti
I mean this from the bottom of my heart when I say that Klein and every other media type who was rah-rah for war back when some scrutiny really would have mattered…
Can save their apologies and go piss up a rope.
Davis X. Machina
I don’t see what all the fuss is about. Think of the war as a campaign commercial. The 2002 and 2004 elections went the right way, didn’t they? And then doing Iran was going to deliver 2006 and 2008…. By then there are like ten Democrats left in the Senate, and we’re off to the races.
Sound concept, flawed execution.
General Stuck
Well, yea, but the left punditocracy has their own stable of polemics, fools and liars to jerk off in my opinion, the right wingers are just more violent in tone and what they support usually only helps a few people at the top of the socioeconomic totem pole. The whole spectrum is polarized to demonstrate their foes in the worst possible light without very much sense of reality and fairness. The right trashes Obama because they think he is Hitler, or Stalin, depending which way what the wind blows, and the left trashes everybody including their own for the ignoble pursuit of perfection and often end up with nothing but moral victories.
I don’t know how you take in all this crap Dougj and then write coherent, usually, blog posts about it. Like reporting from the minutes of a neverending ClownHall meeting. There are nuggets of wisdom here and there, but I just don’t have the patience of stomach to wade through the drek. I guess that’s why it’s your job.
QDC
Erik seems to get a lot of views attributed to him that I’m not sure he holds. Then again, I didn’t really read him before he came here, but, DougJ, if you’re reading this post for the proposition that “establishment media types should keep jerking each other off,” that seems a bit of a stretch.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Maybe the most galling part of post-Iraq politics: the total lack of accountability or consequence for the fuck-ups who brought up this war, from the op-ed page to Congress. Honestly, Hillary Clinton is the only national figure who paid any kind of price for supporting the war, at least the only one I can think of. And how many people were screwed for being right.
curious
i’ve sort of followed the edk thing but could someone explain what he’s written that dougj is referencing with “establishment media types should keep jerking each other off and praising Megan McArdle”? sincere question.
The Dangerman
The 4th Estate was cowed in direct proportion to the amount of bullshit coming from the bully pulpit (and Dubya and Darth were recreating Bandini Mountain to get their war on); place the blame where it belongs, specifically, the (intentional) misinformation.
Svensker
If Joe Klein is truly sorry, then let him call out the warmongers now. And let him do everything in his power — limited tho it may be — to head off war with Iran. You can’t change the past, Joe, but you might have an impact on the future.
Bill E Pilgrim
Not everyone was a supporter of the invasion of Iraq. I know people who were arrested protesting it. I know people who were arrested protesting the first Iraq war, actually.
I appreciate hearing how some people moved from one side of the spectrum to the other, in fact I think it’s what I find fascinating here, but I bristle sometimes at the notion that “everyone” was behind the Iraq war. I know it’s not what you said, literally, but still.
Joe Klein now says he was wrong, yeah I guess that’s something. On the other hand it still feels mealy-mouthed to me, as I read it.
Here’s Matt Taibbi a while back on this topic. The best part aside from the take on Klein is the description of Taibbi’s Russian girlfriend and the beer cans.
Mark S.
@QDC:
Yeah, geez, I don’t recall him saying anything remotely like that. That was really a cheap shot.
General Stuck
@General Stuck:
I didn’t mean to equate the crazy that comes from the right wing these days with the silliness we sometimes get from the left, as the right is clearly off their rockers in a serious way. But the general statement of bullshit ruling the media roost from both sides still is the rule rather than the exception. And it is getting worse.
Keith G
The invasion of Iraq was certainly a horrible deed done by this quaint ‘lil society of ours. There is a question I have been pondering:
In terms of pure meanness and horrible outcomes which of our two trademark stupid wars wins the top prize for wretchedness, Vietnam or Iraq?
cat48
Well, get ready for Goldberg’s bomb Iran crap this Fall as you mentioned in an earlier post. Let’s see who jumps on that runaway train. Richard Haas, FRC, has been prepping everyone w/TV appearances “concerned about Iran”.
It appears O is in the caboose on this one though as he invited media for an Iran briefing last wk to make clear they felt sanctions were beginning to work & he’s open to talks w/Iran still, per Ignatius.
What a friggin mess.
Josie
I have never felt so invisible as I did before the Irag invasion. I wrote letters, signed petitions and made phone calls, and I accomplished absolutely nothing. A person could conclude from this experience that we do not really live in a democracy and that, if the powers that be want to do something stupid and immoral, it will be done. My sons accuse me of being cynical, and I tell them that it is with good reason. Joe Klein and every other pundit and/or politician who actually had a voice and didn’t use it should be ashamed as long as they live.
John W.
As is implied in the comments, it’s worth noting that the single most successful politician of the past decade is successful almost solely because of his view on the Iraq War – Obama. (That alone didn’t do it, but it’s hard to see him in the Oval Office if he did support it). At the very least, this implies a credibility cost that is not really factored in. I wouldn’t be surprised to see the same thing in the media.
Secondly, I think one can professionally disagree with someone without going all Taibbi and being impolite. Does anyone really think that someone like that calling someone names would have done a damned thing? If we can’t use a reasonable discussion to logically persuade people, we’re going to lose to conservatives: they’re much better at cultural appeals that’s what they’re built on, be it revulsion to gays, immigrants, or what have you.
By contrast, though, I don’t think 9 year later columns like this mean a damned thing. It took this long? Seriously?
Anyways, there’s so many tangible things going to hell in this country that complaining over the tenor of news media seems relatively unimportant.
Something Fabulous
Oh, Geeze, I really really don’t want to read this– do I have to? Could someone spare me, and just let me know why now– NOW?– he is suddenly on his apology tour? What happened?
@Josie: Yes.
General Stuck
@Bill E Pilgrim:
I was against the Iraq war from the very moment I heard the intention come from a Bushy lip in the summer of 2002. I wasn’t into blogging then, but sent out a couple dozen letters and many phone calls to my reps, and even cussed out a Domeneci staffer one day shortly before shock and awe, that I wondered about it getting arrested for.
To this day, it seemed so obvious to me at the time that the entire, or a lot of the country had gone completely insane and like everything had become something like a big national reality show contest, but one in which many people were about to die.
I followed the McClatchy boys on everything they wrote and it seemed they were the only sane media group out there. I figured there were likely old stockpiles of chemical weapons from the eighties laying around, but when the inspectors were finding cobwebs in supposedly prime spots for wmd, I knew this was complete lie, not just a big mistake based on half truths.
Svensker
@Josie:
Ditto and a-men.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@John W.:
Personally I see the media–not least the refusal to acknowledge stupidity or guilt, in themselves or in their peers– as one of the biggest factors in how we got where we are, and why it’s so hard to slow things down, much less turn them around.
and the problem of mutual masturbation, or as EDK would probably put it, an excess of collegiality, is a huge problem in the Democratic Party. Barbara Boxer campaigning for Joe Lieberman because she’d known him, as she explained with a patronizing little smile, for thirty years (and I like Boxer a lot). Joe Biden, in an early 2008 Fresh Air interview, blustering on for a good five minutes about how much he loves John McCain, he’d do anything for McCain, and he knew (and probably still belives) that McCain would do anything for him. I’m sure there are fifty other examples. If the most personally beloved or respected Republican, in office or out, strayed from the party orthodoxy by a single sentence, Mitch McConnell and John Cornyn would hang that individual by the ankles and slit their throats and let them bleed out like a pig, to encourage the others. And it works, look at Lindsey Graham’s reaction to being hung in effigy by Tea Partiers.
Starfish
@Bill E Pilgrim: I don’t think DougJ is saying that everyone was for the war in Iraq. He is saying that the people who had any power over the situation and could have potentially brought things to a grinding halt like the inside-the-beltway press, the politicians on the federal level, were mostly for it. No one was asking the important questions. Everyone was saying “Oh really important people say we should trust them, and we should because if we do not bad things could happen. But they can’t tell us about their important evidence because it is all secret.” So it turns out there was no really convincing secret evidence, and the public evidence was all completely fabricated.
General Stuck
@Keith G: Iraq hands down. We were invited into Vietnam by a standing government, not to overthrow one uninvited. A country with a standing army that was trained and didn’t want to become communist, which at that point in time was a serious issue for many.
The problem early on that we were lied to about was first, that we could win that war on our own, and second, that for it to be winnable that standing government and it’s military and people had to be committed to the cause of winning. They were not, and it was known early on. That was the big lie the American people were told and the one the government covered up while it escalated our involement.
Iraq was one big lie from the get go, based on who the hell knows what, hubris, bloodthirst, ego, etc…… take your pick.
kdaug
This reads like a requiem for Ashleigh Banfield.
Truth to power gets you crushed, most of the time.
Pancake
Hmmm. Another apology and more revisions to the history of his prior positions. As someone recently observed, “Klein’s arguments are those of a simpleton. He has drawn up a doctrine that isn’t based on careful reasoning, subtle analysis, or a sophisticated understanding of history; it is, in fact, a childish overreaction to the events of the moment.” What Klein states with emphatic certainty one day is something he will probably jettison the next….as he does several times in this so-called “apology.”
Bill E Pilgrim
@John W.: Judy Miller’s writing was far more obscene to me than anything that Matt Taibbi ever wrote.
He can also write circles around anyone I know, at least in journalism, and certainly compared to his critics, and I don’t mean using salty language, I mean writing.
I guess it all comes down to that old definition of obscenity: There isn’t one, but I know it when I see it.
ed
Which is to say half-assed and eight (8) years too late. Unless and until Klein starts getting more Important Shit (e.g., FISA) right, I’ll stick with Krugman and the few other public figures who were correct from the get go on Iraq (and other stuff).
General Stuck
@kdaug:
It certainly does when even the watchers don’t want to hear the truth.
The Dangerman
@Keith G:
I’ll play; 58K US KIA in Vietnam; 1.5M KIA amongst the Vietnamese.
Doesn’t even count the Civilian Casulaties; ~4M.
No contest.
General Stuck
@The Dangerman:
And roughly 3 million Vietnamese civilians killed as well. The thing is that the horrible outcome of Iraq has not likely finished playing out yet. But I grant you for the horrible outcome part of the question, Vietnam was worse, so far.
kdaug
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Best argument for term limits I’ve heard in a while.
Corpsicle
@John W.: “without going all Taibbi and being impolite”
For most disagreements I would agree with you. But when you vigorously advocate an action which results in over a hundred thousand deaths, at least that many injuries, and a toxic legacy of genetically damaged children for generations, you lose the right to be treated politely. When it comes to the vast numbers of Iraq war cheerleaders I wouldn’t piss on them if they were on fire. Unless I was so drunk that my urine might be flammable.
Ruckus
@John W.:
Anyways, there’s so many tangible things going to hell in this country that complaining over the tenor of news media seems relatively unimportant.
It’s the news media that shapes or at least helps shape the tone, level and substance of the public debate. When they are all in the can against your better interests, how far do you think that debate is going to get? Or that there will even be a debate?
And when, like Klein they try to BS their way through the Iraq fuck up and act all high and mighty, they should be called out. Tabbi may push your boundaries for good taste but for mine he barely scratches the surface. The media not doing their job of questioning the powerful helped kill thousands of people. Unnecessarily.
Bill E Pilgrim
@Starfish: You may be right, I read his post again and saw it more that way. On the other hand, when you write:
This is exactly what I’m referring to. It’s easy to slip into, simply saying “everyone”, and it’s done a lot.
There was a whole side of the populace that was angrily, violently against this. There were protests, which were underreported. There were bloggers saying the same things that they say now. It disturbs me sometimes that people often seem to dismiss this as either negligent or nonexistent.
Yes, too many people were taken in, but I see a lot of them as always having been far too eager to be taken in. Like Klein. That’s sort of the point of that Taibbi piece I linked above.
Someone above said the question is what Klein would do next, when the next war is proposed.
This is exactly the point. Precisely. He hasn’t really changed, at all, that’s the problem.
Tom Q
@Keith G: Split the categories. For horror-of-outcome, the vastly more costly in human terms Vietnam has to get the crown. But at least the people who got us into (even further into) Vietnam were operating on some sort of theory that flowed from general US foreign policy consensus. The Iraq War was a lunatic, “Why the hell are we doing this?” action that could only have happened from the perfect storm of Bush steals the election/September 11th scares the nation. It clearly takes top honors for stupidity in action.
The Dangerman
@General Stuck:
True, but then Vietnam led to assorted horrible outcomes like the Khmer Rouge killing a few million in Cambodia, and, perhaps, tangentially to military rule in Myanmar (and who knows how many have been killed there; I don’t think the numbers would approach Cambodia, but…).
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Oddly enough, as far as I can recall, the MSM Bigfoot who was expressing the most (or at least the loudest) skepticism on Iraq was Tweety
birthmarker
@General Stuck: oil and future military bases, not necessarily in that order.
The Dangerman
@Tom Q:
In terms of stupidity, hands down, Iraq (even more so because Bush 41 had it right when we didn’t take out Saddam in 1991; Shrub could have just called his Pops, but he had to get his Oedipus Complex on, too).
Ruckus
@efgoldman:
Or at least we could have someone blindfolded and shoot in their general direction. Maybe they’d get lucky, maybe we would.
DougJ
I am not implying that everyone was for the Iraq War, merely that nearly everyone in establishment media was for it.
And I don’t think I am being that unfair to Erik. We have different opinions — I think it is important to call people out harshly when they are full of shit. Not everyone agrees with me about this.
AhabTRuler
Lolwhut? I think that ship has already sailed.
Omnes Omnibus
Everything is running over the right margin on IE. WAHHH!!!
Bill E Pilgrim
@DougJ: Yes just a pet peeve of mine that I somewhat conflated with your post I realized after I wrote that.
Also I really have no idea what the establishment media was doing at that point since I had been out of the country for five years already. I know only what friends and family tell me, all of which usually amounts to “be glad you weren’t here”.
birthmarker
@Bill E Pilgrim: Anyone with a public forum who tried to suggest that it was ill advised or should be more thoughtfully considered was called a traitor.
John Dean’s books (IIRC) deal with this syndrome, where important issues aren’t brought out for public debate. They are just propagandized into policy.
Mike in NC
OT and I won’t link to her drivel, but McMegan has gotten a case of the vapors over Michelle Obama taking a vacation in Spain during a recession. The comments from her fellow glibertarians are priceless (and frequently racist).
Guess it would be rude to question her own elaborate and lavish wedding plans, all being funded by wingnut welfare.
Carwin
Its a getting a little tedious that all of DougJ’s posts are attempts to bait Erik into defending all of conservatism’s bullshit. Hey Erik defend Megan McArdle! (Even though its not quite clear Erik would want to do that). Hey what about that Iraq War, defend that Erik! What about John Boehner’s tan? And while you are at it, defend the entirety of Jonah Goldberg’s career! I don’t think Erik’s purpose here is to translate wingnut, nor is it defend every stupid thing conservatives have done and are doing.
General Stuck
@DougJ:
Did someone say you were being unfair to Erik?
arguingwithsignposts
@Mike in NC:
This is the same McMegan who is buying a house during a recession through a credit union. She can stfu.
ETA: and @carwin: “Hey Erik defend Megan McArdle!” He did link approvingly to her recently.
Bruce (formerly Steve S.)
I disagree. I can’t recall an American military adventure that didn’t have broad pundit/mass media support. Nothing “aligned” for Iraq, it was just another example of reflexive support of every American Imperial initiative since, well, ever. The difference this time was the administration’s willingness to commit to large-scale ground war and occupation, everybody else just played their usual role of cheering on the carnage.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Mike in NC: McMegan has gotten a case of the vapors over Michelle Obama taking a vacation in Spain during a recession.
Of course she has. It’s the ‘wingnut Talking Point du Jour (Murdoch’s British tabloids are giving it full coverage, so they’ll all have something to link to), so she’s being very bold and nonpartisan by not being afraid to address this important issue. You think MoDo will bring her tired schtick in that direction tomorrow, or will it take till Wednesday? I’m sure FoxNewSunday and Harold Ford will be very concerned about the message the First Lady is sending.
hitchhiker
Joe Klein, May 2006
Or possibly, Joe, you just have a knee-jerk assumption that you don’t have to pay close attention to what people on the left are actually saying.
Until 8 years have passed and those people turn out to have been right on the money. And then you post your regrets.
It’s so discouraging.
John W.
Defending myself en masse: I was a debater in college and saw real, smart people who had wildly different views hold constructive debates while being cordial. It can be done.
I agree that Judy Miller and others were more offensive that Taibbi. That does not make Taibbi the standard. It does not mean that if only Judy Miller would have said fuck more things would be in good shape. To the contrary, the gold standards are the guys no one mentions and that I don’t even know to name. But the Newshour and Charlie Rose I would imagine were much more honest and thorough than, say, the hacks at NBC.
People see the cordiality and lash out at it. And I understand why. But being an asshole doesn’t get shit done most of the time. I don’t think someone yelling at Ari Fleischer would have changed a damned thing.
I want a media that has no problem being cordial on one hand and being brutally honest on the other. You can treat the President with respect and still argue that he’s guilty of a war crime. That’s not a contradiction. You can say that Paul Ryan wants to appeal as a wonky conservative but that his budget plan is a fraud.
It’s not one or the other. I don’t think a more vitriolic media would do anything. Best case scenario, we become a bit more like Britain. And guess what? They invaded Iraq too.
John W.
So basically, I separate the tenor of the media from the content of the media, but I seem to be in the minority.
Omnes Omnibus
@Omnes Omnibus: Everything is fine in Safari.
DougJ
@General Stuck:
Yes, two commenters said that.
Tom Q
@John W.: Actually, I agree with you, John. I want a rigorous, tough-question-asking media; I don’t want a dick-ish media.
burnspbesq
@eemom:
Best recording of “It’s All Over Now, Baby Blue” is by the Byrds. On the “Ballad of Easy Rider” album.
Hands down. Not even close.
I’m as big a believer in forgiveness as the next Catholic, but it’s hard to forgive Klein or any of the other cheerleaders for the Iraq war. Someone remind me – WTF legitimate interest of the United Sates was actually threatened by Saddam Hussein’s government?
Martin
I remember coming home from work and while changing watching CNN. They were interviewing Hans Blix who was describing the UN inspection effort and in some detail explaining how he was quite confident there were no WMDs in Iraq, despite Saddam’s efforts to resist the inspection process.
Right after that the went to covering Bush in a presser or some such making the case that we were prepared to invade if the UN came back with evidence of WMDs. The change in attitude among the CNN folks was disarming – they were skeptical of the guy who was actually in Iraq, and unquestioning of the Decider. I mentioned to my wife after that – no matter what the UN did, we were going to invade, and the media would be the key to pulling it off.
Omnes Omnibus
@burnspbesq: Barry McGuire.
arguingwithsignposts
That was some yellow cake!
Omnes Omnibus
@arguingwithsignposts: mmmmm… cake.
hitchhiker
Joe Klein August, 2005
That was from an essay written during the Cindy Sheehan days. It’s critical of Bush, as much of his writing was, but as always he wants it both ways.
Joe Klein is in favor continued access and privilege for Joe Klein. He has to find ways to hedge every bet and make just enough nice to stay on the guest lists.
He can always beat his chest and do the Mea Culpa later, right?
Note that his MO is not the same as being polite and also brutally honest. He’s polite and painfully dishonest in his attempts to not make people with power too angry.
John W.
@TomQ
Exactly. I’m trained as a lawyer and lawyers deal with each other cordially all the time, despite having interests in opposition. It’s not that high of a burden to meet.
But in this market where everyone is cutting costs and looking for an audience immediately to raise money, I don’t foresee things changing any time soon.
Bill E Pilgrim
@John W.: But John,
Do you see that claiming that “saying fuck” is the only thing that Taibbi does, or reducing what people appreciate about his writing to this, could possibly be seen as not at all cordial, to someone say who actually likes his writing, for reasons having nothing at all to do with “saying fuck”?
And also, I mean if “saying fuck”, which I assume isn’t just about that word, but stands for obscene or crude language in general, is so offensive, then does the fact that you just wrote “But being an asshole doesn’t get shit done most of the time” mean that you should now be seen as vulgar and not polite and not worth listening to? (I don’t think so, for one.)
I’ve seen Matt Taibbi interviewed on television a number of times, and have never heard him yell at anyone. I’ve actually seen people yell at him, on Scarborough’s show, and he responded firmly but very politely.
I’m glad you agree about Judy Miller.
And yes, if the question is whether having more people like Taibbi on TV in 2003 and fewer people like Judy Miller would have helped, I say yes, absolutely.
Frank
In the run-up to the war in February 2003, I remember one of the major networks (ABC?) radio where they were broadcasting a Pentagon press conference. A foreign journalist (perhaps from one of the Arab countries) was basically ridiculed by the ABC commentators for having the audacity to question the Pentagon with real questions as opposed to the pathetic questions asked by the US media.
Or how about one of the FoxNews reports in Iraq who was criticized for being to biased to the American side. In response he said: “You think I’m too biased to the American side. You are damn right I’m biased to American side”.
This from a guy who officially calls himself a journalist/reporter. How that guy was any different than Baghad Bob I will never know.
Since then our media is in my eyes a laughingstock and just overpaid stenographers or fake patriots.
Mark S.
What I think was even more disgraceful was that when every rationale for the war fell apart, the press didn’t care. Instead, they found it hilarious.
catclub
@The Dangerman:
I agree, bombing Cambodia into its insanity of the Khmer Rouge is at least partly on us as well.
On the other hand, there could still be (more) nasty repercussions from Iraq.
nick
DougJ said:
“the tendency to follow one’s own interests, the rest of the world be damned, is especially pronounced among careerists.’
Upton Sinclair said:
“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!”
General Stuck
@DougJ: Well, okay, so long as you didn’t take my comment to say that. If you did, it wasn’t meant that way, just a general statement on the state of punditry all around was what I intended.
Keith G
@Tom Q: I think the “split categories” is useful to a point.
Sheer human suffering – Vietnam
Dark-hearted decision making – Maybe Iraq gets the nod.
But remember in 64-65 LBJ seemed to know that escalation was a dead end, but he felt he needed to shore up his “Right Flank” – a purely domestic political calculus.
And then there are things like the shafting of General John D. Lavelle by Nixon.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/08/opinion/08sun3.html
CalD
Probably, as is so often the case with with so many things, the truth is somewhere in the middle.
arguingwithsignposts
@CalD:
David Broder, is that you?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I don’t necessarily advocate “dickishness”, but cordiality in our political culture–among elected officials and the media–is pretty much a one-way street with liberals and Democrats lying in the middle of it with tire marks on their backs. Krugman is an exception, as was the late, great Miss Ivins, who almost never lost her temper with even the most vicious of nitwits.
But take EJ Dionne’s recent response to a substantive critique of David Broder (and Broderism). Dionne, whom I like, replied “everyone loves David Broder.” That’s nice. Make him honorary grampa to all your kids, but the American polity is not your backyard barbecue. David Broder is a genial, avuncular, soft-spoken cancer on American politics, an apologist for war, torture, illegal spying and the avowed enemy of accountability on any of those matters, all in the name of “comity” and “bipartisanship”. And as long as the guardians of our discourse are more concerned with his personality than with his actual effect on our politics, the circle jerk will remain unbroken.
Liz Cheney got on non-Fox TV (in part) because of her social relationships with IIRC George Stephanopolous and Mika Brezcinski. Tim Russert was a willfully ignorant buffoon, he bragged about it (“I’m from Buffalo!”) but he was a nice guy, everybody’s older brother, so nobody called him on his complete professional uselessness. Hell, they never saw it. Pat Buchanan is by all accounts charming company.
You can go on and on with these examples. I think the blogosphere and people who say “wanker” are the least of our problems. I guess the relevant comparison to lawyers on opposite sides (and IANAL, so bear with me) would be if Lawyer A, and the hypothetical judge, consistently overlooked Lawyer B’s ethical breaches and deliberate misreadings of case law (again, IANAL) in the name of professional and extra-professional collegiality.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Judy Miller did say fuck, quite a lot, apparently, just not in print.
Martin
@CalD: Well, I think the more accurate statement, which yields the same outcome as DougJs statement is:
The media can either show the incompetents and sociopaths for what they are (as was intended) or they can cover it up (as they increasingly do).
SiubhanDuinne
@Jim, Foolish Literalist #54:
No need to wait until Wednesday. Her Sunday column is up, and she’s all over the Michelle-as-Marie-Antoinette meme. “Tired schtick” indeed.
Midnight Marauder
@DougJ:
You point blank asked him why he approvingly links and cites people like Megan McArdle and he responded with an entire post that neglected to answer the question in even the most basic of forms.
Keep the pressure on, DougJ. Make him actually respond to legitimate criticism. And as far as Kain’s excuse thus far that he was unprepared for the level of engagement of this blog, sounds like a failure to prepare him for what he was in for.
My tiny violin, it is playing for you.
+7
NobodySpecial
Apology not accepted. Joke Line can go cliff diving in Colorado.
mclaren
If there were any justice in this world, Joe Klein and Tom Freidman and Fareed Zakaria and the rest of the sociopaths who cheerled this futile self-destructive war would shuffle before the bar at the international court in The Hague to answer charges for accessory to genocide and aiding and abetting crimes against humanity.
I’m still waiting for an apology by Fareed Zakaria. He was one of the principal architects of the Iraq Invasion back in November 2001.
Yes.
Fareed Zakaria.
Along with Paul Wolfowitz and Dick Cheney and Richard Perle, Fareed Zakaria was one of the most vehement advocates for a war against Iraq in the dark days immediately after 9/11:
Steve Herbits, a close consultant to Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.
When are we going to get a public apology from Fareed Zakaria for his key role in fomenting the 2003 invasion of Iraq?
nick
1.3 million excess deaths as of October, 2008, because of the invasion. Lancet’s second study.
http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2008/11/deaths_in_iraq_1.php
If that isn’t a crime, what is?
SiubhanDuinne
@mclaren #83: tl;dr
Gretchen D
@burnspbesq: Remember Colin Powell and his assertions to the UN about the WMD? That’s when I knew we were in big trouble. I could hear in his voice that he didn’t believe what he was saying, but the vast majority was buying it.
mclaren
@nick:
Genocide and torture.
In 1946, we hung people for those crimes.
Source: International justice and the International Criminal Court (2 ed.), Bruce Broomhall. Oxford University Press. pp. 46.
mclaren
@SiubhanDuinne:
ts;cts.
(Too shallow, can’t take seriously.)
birthmarker
@mclaren: Thanks for this. I didn’t know. Of course it was just to put a gloss of thoughtfulness on the invasion-in Ron Suskin’s book, The Price of Loyalty,Bush’s first Secretary of the Treasury, Paul O’Neill, said that the war with Iraq was on the table at his first meeting with the administration–long before the attacks on 9/11 later in the year.
<a http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/01/09/60minutes/main592330.shtml
I am a terrible liner. If it trashes, it is from CBS News /60 minutes, Jan. 11, 2004.
Cat Lady
Fuck Joe Klein sideways with asiangrrrl’s rusty implements. All of them. It’s too late.
That is all.
namekarB
So us dirty fvcking hippies were right from the get go?
Whodathunk. Sheesh
Bill Murray
@General Stuck: of course Phil Donahue was the top rated show on MSNBC when he was axed for being too questioning of the war run-up, so people wanted to watch some of this. and then NBC wouldn’t even let her out of her contract
SRW1
@Bill E Pilgrim:
Isn’t it almost kind of a prerequisite for Klein to say that the previous war was a mistake if he wants to be taken seriously when arguing for the next one?
Won’t he have to be able to insist that this time it will be different?
bob h
I can only believe that we are ruled by incompetents and sociopaths.
Which makes it kind of hard to believe we are really masters of our fate anymore. We are basically at the mercy of those who demagogue their way into power; American values will survive only if they allow them to do so.
Martin Gifford
@General Stuck:
1. What you call the left, would be called the centre in most democracies.
2. The reason we can’t successfully pursue perfection is either that the Democrats are Centre-Right or they are too busy compromising and failing to stand by principles that the Republican goals win by default and become the “political reality” that then requires further compromise.