Getting ready for a bunch of folks to come over for dinner (sort of a Mexican night, salsa, guac, tacos, fajita’s, beans, rice), but I’d like to pose this question for you- Can you think of any other nation where a significant portion of the elite press openly advocates, to the detriment of their nation, engaging in military adventurism for a client state? And who insist that anyone who says “Hey, slow down,” is not a serious person?
Here is a Question
This post is in: Open Threads, DC Press Corpse, Our Failed Media Experiment
Stuck in the Funhouse
No doubt about it, we are the worlds cop and Israel is our child to protect. Good or bad, that’s the case. But Israel is hardly the only country not crazy about the idea of Iran getting a nuke and later longer range rockets. You can find those in Europe, and much of the rest of the ME as well.
Svensker
Gee, John, when the blinders fell off, did they punch a whole in the known universe? Did you feel that way even when you were a Repuke?
The answer to your question is NO.
Politically Lost
Didn’t the Romans pull something like that?
Stuck in the Funhouse
And Obama will be the one who gives the order to launch such a strike, and I seriously doubt, in the end, he will order such a potential catclysmic action, that likely will not work anyway. To stop Iran’s nuke ambitions. I could be wrong about that, but don’t think so. Now, Israel and Bibi are another matter, but I also doubt they will for the same reasons, plus it likely would not be supported by the current US administration, plus it would turn the ME into a blood bath likely, and that may not be in their own best interest. But I wouldn’t put it past the Likudites.
jl
I need to know what Mexican recipe you need this info for first before I can help out.
Sounds like the theme fits in with very strong likker drinks.
You need this for Mexican cocktails?
Lots of tequila is needed, is all I can say for sure right now.
freelancer
USA on behalf of West Germany, 1946-1991.
USA on behalf of Vietnam, 1963-1975.
To name just two instances.
El Cid
Israel is not a child to be protected.
Mark S.
Isn’t the idea of a client state that the patron state gets something (like tribute or troops) out of the relationship? Instead, we pay them and they shit in the face of our vice-president during official visits. Oh, and they might start a nice regional war for us while we’re broke and trying to get troops out.
You Don't Say
I recently made some *excellent* guac — or so everyone said (blush) — if ya need any advice.
Dead Ernest
Well John, you’ve narrowed down the possible nations to those that have; client states, and a press that can (or could) openly advocate their nation’s behavior.
I truly don’t know how many of those nations there have ever been – I’m no historian.
If anyone here does know of any I’d be happy to get educated.
Minus the advocating press – USSR, Cuba and the Bay of Pigs?
Dinner sounds great, I’m sure you’ll have a great time.
Omnes Omnibus
@freelancer:
Adventurism?
Quiddity
Russia mobilized in 1914 after the Austrian/Serbian crisis, as a show of support for Serbia.
And I’m pretty sure there have been other ethnic/religious-solidarity moves by a big country that supported the actions of a smaller one throughout history.
Sloegin
@Omnes Omnibus: Ding Ding. Yeah I don’t remember us attacking any Warsaw Pact states for Germany’s sake during that period.
Cat Lady
The Soviet Union had Cuba. How’d that work out?
freelancer
@Omnes Omnibus:
Yeah it was more Brinkmanship, and we used Germany more than they controlled our foreign policy debate.
Omnes Omnibus
@Quiddity: This is a pretty good example. A depressing example, but a good one.
cat48
Also, Goldberg told the serious Andrea Mitchell, while he was pushing the bombing, the president cannot visit Israel because he would be booed everywhere!
So, they have no respect for the US leader, but they expect us to engage in War to keep Israel safe. Something is really wrong and abusive with this relationship. Basic respect please!
Keith G
@Quiddity: Quite right. That was my choice.
Politically Lost
I remember Sy Hersh banging the alarm bells about an attack on Iran in the middle of Bush’s second term. Obviously the attack didn’t come to fruition, but I believe Hersh was probably right. There was strong advocacy in the administration to start freedom bombing Iran. Unfortunately, those that were advocating it have not been stripped of their power or influence.
What’s worse is that the neocon agenda and those that push for it are not treated by our media overlords as the leprous scumbags that they are.
morzer
C’mon, dude, You can admit it. It’s all about mass-production of anchor babies, innit?
Omnes Omnibus
@freelancer: I am still going to have disagree on that one.
BenTheTipsyBear
Not that I have anything against a classic margarita (3 parts any tequila other than cuervo, 2 parts lime juice, 1 part triple sec/cointreau – shaken, rocks, salt rim), but this is worth a try:
http://www.cocktailia.com/cocktail-recipes/el-diablo
Yes, Israel is a country. And our military-industrial complex does whatever the hell it wants (that makes a profit), and it’s the press-corpse’s job to justify those actions.
I’m gonna go back to thinking about drinking again…
Cheers!
Omnes Omnibus
@morzer: Cole isn’t a citizen? Deport his ass!
kdaug
See one Samuel Clemens, on the Phillipine war
DickSpudCouchPotatoDetective
Just one thing: Is ED coming?
Politically Lost
@morzer:
That’s TERROR BABIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Stuck in the Funhouse
@El Cid: I tend to agree, at least for launching an unprovoked attack on another country, which is why I don’t think Obama will, Palin would though, or any number of other nutters out there. Our alliance with them is mostly for existential attack on Israeli soil. In 1973, I was on alert with the 82nd Airborne, ready to get on a C141 and head over that way, though luckily for me it didn’t happen.
There is more here to consider than just Israel, so framing it to only be for their benefit is not accurate imo. I doubt, if it came down to it, Europe would object to such an attack, if it would serve the purpose of destroying Iran’s nuke program, but of course it wouldn’t. And no one has the stomach for an invasion, which would be the only way stop them. So they are going to get their nuke, I figure.
cat48
@morzer:
Nah, terror babies!
asdf
You Don’t Say, I’d be interested in hearing about your guacamole. It’s a subject near and dear to my heart.
morzer
@Politically Lost:
My suspicions were first aroused when I noticed that Mr Cole was constructing a large mosque in his backyard…..
Steve
Does any other nation actually have an “elite press”?
Politically Lost
@cat48:
You forgot the capitals.
Bernard
of course, this will happen after the election. so Iran is “safe” for now. but there is no way for Iran to avoid being “saved”. lol
the Israelis will never allow Iran to do anything nuclear. who knows what Iran might do with Nuclear power? so. not to worry about if, just when. and why worry. Israel doesn’t care about anyone but itself, America be damned.
the cubans were in Africa,Angola i thought? Shows how stupid power thugs behave. small or big, idiots kill innocents for “fun”.
MikeJ
@cat48: Terror Babies.
neill
Let us not forget the United States’ glorious history in the entire southern part of our own hemisphere during the twentieth century.
(Of course, United Fruit and friends were our little children there…)
I’m afraid Randy Newman’s dream of Italian shoes and Japanese kimonos for us all has fallen by the wayside…)
burnspbesq
John Cole:
No. American exceptionalism at its best.
JGabriel
@Politically Lost:
I don’t know, but I’m thinking the attitude towards military adventurism that John describes was probably common in Europe up till WWI, and was a factor in Japan until WWII.
.
Omnes Omnibus
@Steve: British, French, Germans….
DarrenG
You could probably find some vague parallels in medieval Europe or later colonial periods, but why bother? The U.S./Israel relationship has gotten uniquely weird in so many respects no analogy would completely hold.
The second half of the question is easy, though: I think it’d be hard to find many nations where the establishment press *didn’t* consider those who hesitate to support militarism to be unserious at best, and traitorous at worst.
morzer
What always amazes me is how this “elite” press swings between pompous assertion of America’s unshakeable military superiority, and cringing terror whenever some brown-skinned person takes possession of a pea-shooter.
cat48
@MikeJ:
Refrigerator magnet!
Omnes Omnibus
@DarrenG: The FT was opposed to the Falklands War, but the obscurity of the example probably supports your general point.
Chris
Not clear to me that an attack on Iran only “benefits” Israel. Personally, I’m so against bombing or taking any other military action against Iran. The US needs to just stop bombing people.
But, Iran is a real country with a real economy and oil and a populace that is young and educated (70% literacy there, I think). To a certain group of people in our govt and in many govts in the ME, it must be made to fall in line. Way too threatening otherwise. I don’t agree with this thinking at all but there are plenty of govts outside of Israel to whom Iran presents a real challenge (as in a threat to the all powerful US/Euro world scheme that is currently running), purely because it has real strength and has the possibility of gaining more. I’m no expert but that’s my take from what I’ve read.
Cat Lady
@Cat Lady:
Come to think of it, is there any difference between Politico and Izvestia, and the WaPo and Pravda? The old joke was there’s no information in Izvestia, and no truth in Pravda.
Margaritas!
bobbo
Seems like just the natural progression of an empire.
The part right before it collapses. The only questions are: how long will it take to collapse, and how much internal upheaval will follow?
beltane
@Politically Lost: Yeah, they did. They would use Arabs to fight proxy wars against the Persians. The difference is that it was Rome pulling the strings in furtherance of its own interests, there was no religious motive, and their was no “free and independent media”.
pickledjazz
Elite Press? You have to be kidding ,right?
This press is as inept and unelite as they come. Elite press have great uplifting discourse. This lot are a bunch of bacchanalian herd mentality novices, who are only into derogatory remarks, and live by polls, polls polls,all from 1000 people!
cat48
Suppose we’re just supposed to forget all about the Green Movement and the Neda story corporate cable spent hours covering. Really interested how they’re going to justify beating the drums for bombing after that coverage and everyone’s supposed to swallow their argument.
Omnes Omnibus
@morzer: Two sides of the same coin: posturing to mask fear and showing the fear.
You Don't Say
@asdf: Avocado, onion, tomato, lime juice and cilantro. Probably nothing special but everyone said it was great. I went easy on the cilantro because some people eating the guac don’t like it, but I love it and would put in more normally. Thanks for asking!
Toast
No, John, I can’t. Except for the Soviet Union, and they’ve left the building.
Anyone here ever read Norman Spinrad’s Russian Spring? Aside from the part where the Soviet Union liberalizes without breaking up, it’s the most prescient work of fiction I’ve ever read.
We are Battlestar America.
beltane
I just finished a book called “Justinian’s Flea” that was partly about the Bubonic Plague and party about the Byzantine Empire’s failed military campaign against the Persians and how that facilitated the rise and spread of Islam.
Attacking Iran will be a clusterfuck of a scale we cannot really appreciate.
Omnes Omnibus
@cat48: Memory hole. The press has the memory of goldfish. And a similar attention span.
morzer
@beltane:
Actually, the Byzantine campaign against the Persians were pretty militarily successful in the end. What went wrong was that they stopped paying subsidies to the Arabs along the borders, after the Great War was over.
You Don't Say
@You Don’t Say: Garlic. Forgot the garlic.
beltane
@morzer: The situation was somewhat analogous to the aftermath of the US funding the mujaheddin in Afghanistan in a proxy war against the Soviet Union. Military successes are fleeting in the big scheme of things.
El Cid
@Stuck in the Funhouse: Neither the US’ nor Israeli policymakers’ main concerns regarding Israel have to do with the security of Israeli citizens.
It entirely has to do with regional power projection, and as a nuclear armed nation Israel simply has no existential threat to its state whatsoever.
40 years ago, potentially.
Now, not at all.
morzer
@beltane:
Not really. The Arabs had no real ideological involvement, and they weren’t defending their homelands from invasion. Both sides paid them (the Byzantines paid the Ghassanids, the Persians paid the Lakhmids).
asdf
You Don’t Say, I wish I had some right now!
I have a lady friend in a mountain town in New Mexico who makes it the same way. We had to take something to a party once and that’s what she made. It disappeared like magic.
Me? I just use lemon juice and Pace’s Hot Sauce, just like I learned to do it in Texas when I was a boy.
Thanks for the recipe. I’ll go the Farmer’s Market, get some really good tomatoes and make yours tomorrow.
FlipYrWhig
How about India in Sri Lanka, or Indonesia in East Timor, or Russia in Georgia/South Ossetia/Abkhazia? I don’t know anything about the “elite press” there, but they follow the pattern of regional hegemonic power throwing its weight around.
beergoggles
I’m sure there’s plenty. But as an example I’ll use my dad’s native country – sri lanka. The government run press was always backing the genocide and anyone questioning it was not taken seriously; at least in the native language paper. The english language papers always had more sensible presentations, but only the elites ever read that paper. The regular people read the sinhalese papers and always got whatever the government was feeding them.
I see very little difference in the US between the government and the media. They’re just chummy and throw parties for each other than consider politeness and getting along more important than fact and actually serving the public in any way. It’s really no different than sri lankan government run media. At least in the US, you don’t have the own the media, just provide them access to spout your propaganda. I have to say, it’s a lot cheaper to do it the way the US does it. You don’t have the own the paper and you get away with calling yourself a free press.
beltane
@morzer: I guess this is a uniquely irrational situation in that this upcoming war will be largely driven by ideology/religion. Israel has become a 21st century, nuclear armed equivalent of the old Crusader Kingdom, supported by rabid evangelicals who seek the second coming of Christ.
FlipYrWhig
Can I just say, the thought of Iran having a nuclear weapon doesn’t scare me? Let Iran check Israel the way Pakistan and India, China and Russia check each other. I think you need to believe that Iran is psychopathic rather than a knowledgeable, rational, and sophisticated state actor to be very concerned about it, and while Ahmadinejad says some crazy things, I don’t think he or the mullahs want to bring on the apocalypse any more than Israel’s leaders or US Republicans do. (Hmm, maybe that’s not saying much; but if Bibi and Cheney get to have the bomb, I don’t see why that would disqualify the people who run Iran.) I’m not an expert, but my gut feeling is that it would help adjust the equilibrium for the global balance of power.
morzer
@beltane:
I don’t think there will be a war – Israel isn’t likely to be able to hit Iran with enough force, and will spend a few months trying to blackmail us into doing the dirty work. I imagine Obama will calmly refuse and refuse, amid much whining from our “loyal” press, like the Likudnik spokesmen Goldberg and Krauthammer.
Stuck in the Funhouse
@El Cid: Don’t agree with projecting power by Israel, other than for self preservation. But I agree that we have no business attacking other countries for Israel, but like I said, a nuked Iran is a concern for more folks than Israel. You can try and pin it solely on them, but that isn’t true. I don’t support an attack on Iran’s nuclear facilities because it wouldn’t work, and I don’t agree that every country has a right to a nuclear bomb. Especially a fundamentalist Theocracy, anywhere. Nuclear power yes, but not the bomb. That is everyone’s concern imo.
and Iran has a long history as a revolutionary country, that is saturated with religious fanaticism. They are fairly stable now, but in five years? ten? who knows.
asdf
Garlic.
How did you do it? There are so many ways to go.
You know, if I had my pick, which, of course, I do, I’d use the garlic squeezer.
What did you do?
Kevin
@neill: You have excellent musical taste!!!. Everyone should own a copy of “Sail Away”. The song “Political Science” sums up the warnuts perfectly.
scav
@Kevin: God’s Song also strikes me as apt here too somehow.
FlipYrWhig
@Stuck in the Funhouse:
You could say most of that about the USA. :P
morzer
@FlipYrWhig:
Imagine President Palin in 2012… I’d be tempted to think favorably of Ahmadinejad in comparison.
schrodinger's cat
Vegetarian dinner for me tonight, spicy eggplant coated with corn meal, dal and basmati rice, and tomato-radish raita. Light and refreshing!
You Don't Say
@asdf: Cheated and used minced garlic from the jar. Pressed would be good.
JamesC
Do you want it by historical account, or only modern?
The keyword here is “client state.” As the current and sole political superpower, we /have/ client-states in which the military protection of which seem, under some metrics, reasonable and cost-effective. Regardless if this is true when all actually relevant factors are considered, including whether it’s ethical to do so, we’ve not historically been alone on this front.
Of course, the last time that this was relevant in the political arena, client states were better known as “colonies.”
Cermet
@beltane: Uh, not fully correct – at first, the Byzantine Empire was almost fully defeated by the Persians (and mostly overrun) but then turned it around and utterly destroyed the Persians and occupied their country (it had the good sense to install a Persian king and fully withdraw). With both empires exhausted, Islam arose and was unstopable.
FlipYrWhig
@morzer: Sarah Palin would probably be asking the Joint Chiefs to draw up plans to nuke her rival high school.
morzer
@FlipYrWhig:
“We grow good mushroom clouds in our small towns”
jwb
@You Don’t Say: Yes, you most definitely need garlic—and a touch of cumin as well.
asdf
I don’t know, You Don’t Say, maybe just a little garlic salt would do. I’ve been WAY overdoing things these days. Just killing dishes with over abundance. A little jarred garlic sounds just fine.
Thanks for the tip. I am making this.
Stuck in the Funhouse
@FlipYrWhig: You get one half touche for that,
celticdragonchick
@freelancer:
What the hell are you talking about here? What military adventurism did we engage in concerning West Germany?
Maybe you think we should not have helped to defend other friendly nations who didn’t want to be steamrolled by the 3rd Soviet Shock Army at Fulda?
It looks to me like deterrence worked pretty well…but I guess I forgot that knee jerk pacifism is back in vogue in progressive circles. I suppose it makes a nice compliment to neocon knee jerk aggression, since neither requires any actual nuance or thinking skills.
jwb
@asdf: Jarred garlic is no substitute. Garlic salt???? sacrilege!!!! Really, it is hard to have too much (fresh) garlic.
Kevin
@scav: More excellent taste. God’s Song is my personal Newman favorite.
morzer
@celticdragonchick:
Interesting.. a fan of the late-period Joe Klein.
SiubhanDuinne
Apols if this O/T has been posted elsewhere, but apparently President Obama (second worst person in all of American history) has said publicly that he supports the NYC Islamic Cultural Center. Good for him! says this Obot. He has to know by now that becklimbaughmalkinhannity are going to scream and carry on every day for the next week, and his mild approbation will be the stuff of Sunday talk show tut-tutting. And yet — he said it anyhow!
morzer
@SiubhanDuinne:
Good for Obama. I am glad he’s not just going to sit quietly and let the bigots do their worst.
Omnes Omnibus
@SiubhanDuinne: It wasn’t enough/it took too long/he was wearing the wrong colored shoes while saying it/zomg we will have sharia law tomorrow! ! ! Did I miss anything?
jwb
@SiubhanDuinne: Although according the rules of eleventy dimension chess, this surely means that Obama is actually against it, since he knows very well that his support will solidify opposition—or some such nonsense…
You Don't Say
@jwb: Great idea. I love cumin. Next time.
soonergrunt
Wow, I step out for a bit to see the doctor about something, and I come back and all the threads are full of FUD about Israel/Iran and will we/won’t we bomb Iran on Israel’s half and so on and so on ad infitum.
I’m just going to throw a few things out there and then the rest of you can return to savaging each other. You can even go after me, too, but I’ve stopped caring today.
1) Israel cannot do more than take out a few sites in Iran without our help. The only military advantage they have in in the quality of their air force. Whether or not they could strike as far as Iran without help is another question. Bombs falling on Iran indicates a high probablility of American assistance if not outright action. Israeli aircraft do not have the unrefuled range to make it to Iran and back.
2) Israel cannot attack Iran with nukes. The aforementioned US assistance being necessary to a successful strike means no nukes because the US will NEVER use or collude in the use of nuclear weapons. There is absolutely nothing to be gained by the US and everything to be lost.
3) Attacking our forces in Iraq and Afghanistan is the most likely and most dangerous possible response by Iran. They can’t get to Israel, but they can hit our troops. Essentially, as long as our troops are in those places, the US will not assist Israel to attack Iran. We do not have ADA assets in Iraq or Afghanistan, and any attempt to move them there would be to blow strategic surprise. The deaths of US servicemembers because they weren’t adequately protected however, would be a political disaster for a democratic administration If a republican like Palin takes office in 2012, all bets are off.
4) There’s a contingent on the left that is every bit as shrill and crazy and paranoid as Jeffrey Goldberg and the war cheerleaders. These people see themselves as the bulwark against a war that is so extremely unlikely that the most right-wing millenialist nutcase administration in the country’s history wouldn’t take part in. Telling people like Greenwald and Hamsher to get over themselves is useless, especially when they have a financial stake in this. The paypal button isn’t there as a decoration.
5) There’s another faction that seems to believe that Israel is deserving of some special treatment, and that it’s worth American Soldiers dying for. Kindly direct yourselves to the Israeli embassy to join the IDF if you think this way, but stop trying to get my friends killed, if you don’t mind. American Soldiers have quite enough on their plates already.
6) Which leads me to my particular situation. When I got sick a couple of weeks ago, the doctor suspected pneumonia and he ordered a chest film. There was a lot of white stuff on the film which confirmed the presense of pneumonia.
There was also a shadow.
Today after work, I went and got a High Def CT scan.
I have a mass about the size of a ping-pong ball on the right ventricle of my heart.
I’m meeting an oncologist on Monday. I intend to beat this thing, whatever it is, but I’m also going to meet with a lawyer on Monday too.
One last thing–can we all, just for a little while, be just a shade (you know I had to go there) nicer to each other? Can we disagree without the viciousness and the meanness? Even if we have to bullshit about it for a while?
And last but not least, I know that I have said some incredibly hurtful things to some people here on BJ. With the exceptions of Brick Oven Bill and Makewi, who are just simply useless oxygen thieves, I’d like to offer heartfelt (such as the heart is–oh come on, i can’t just leat the easy ones go) apology and to beg forgiveness. I am so sorry.
4tehlulz
@SiubhanDuinne: He did it on a Friday night, so it doesn’t count.
morzer
@4tehlulz:
I hope that defense applies to the numerous sins I have thoroughly enjoyed committing on Friday nights down the years!
You Don't Say
@soonergrunt: I’m sorry. Please let us know how it goes on Monday. I’ll be thinking about you.
Cat Lady
You got me hypnotized.
@bobbo:
from bondage to spiritual faith
from spiritual faith to great courage
from courage to liberty
from liberty to abundance
from abundance to selfishness
from selfishness to complacency
from complacency to apathy
from apathy to dependency
from dependency back to bondage.
— Alexander Fraser Tyler
We’re back in bondage.
Wheel is turning and we can’t slow it down.
Cat Lady +4
morzer
@soonergrunt:
Good luck with your fight against the mass.
Stuck in the Funhouse
@soonergrunt: I agree, and don’t want our soldiers to die for Israel either. And that there is about no chance of an air strike, and about everything else you said. We do need to have a plan hopefully from other countries in the region from getting their own nukes and creating the ingredients for the apocalypse. ]
And I am very sorry to hear about your mass. Maybe it won’t be malignant. Hopefully, :)
Svensker
@soonergrunt:
Oh, kid.
Prayers and good thoughts for you — as the Quakers say, holding you in the Light.
Oh, my dear. Big hugs.
Omnes Omnibus
@soonergrunt: I am sorry to hear that. It sounds like you have the right attitude to fight, which I think is a big part of the battle. Cheers and try not to worry too much over the weekend.
Cat Lady
@soonergrunt:
Shit. Shit. Shit. We here on BJ are all on team soonergrunt. Keep us posted. The BJ hive mind sends you many blessings.
MikeJ
@soonergrunt: Good luck, you stupid fuck.
Sorry, all this niceness is just wrong somehow.
Omnes Omnibus
@MikeJ: Fuck you, be a fucking gentleman, for fuck’s sake.
Is that better?
SiubhanDuinne
@Soonergrunt
Ah, Sooner. I don’t know what to say, except that I am holding you in my heart and in my thoughts, sending you all the white light I can muster, and looking forward to shared snark on this blog for a very long time to come.
And if it takes a mass on your heart to get people to be a tiny bit nicer to each other — well, I would never say it’s worth it, but I *would* say it’s in a worthy cause.
Long-distance hugs, Soon.
freelancer
@soonergrunt:
Sorry to hear that. Hopefully you’ll hear some good news. Remember, you have hundreds of strangers out there in the ether that are pulling for you and have you in their thoughts.
Ailuridae
@soonergrunt:
That’s horrible. My thoughts are with you. And please let us know how it goes on Monday.
birthmarker
@soonergrunt: Best of luck in your fight. I respect your request for civility amongst us here at BJ. We are all on the same side, aren’t we? Tonight that would be your side!! Please keep us updated.
FlipYrWhig
@soonergrunt: Son of a… Beat the living hell out of that mass.
jl
@soonergrunt: So sorry to hear about your health problem. You will be in my thoughts. Good luck on Monday. Hope the news is as good as possible.
freelancer
Alexander Zaitchik, author of “Common Nonsense: Glenn Beck and the Triumph of Ignorance” interviewed on Skeptical podcast Point of Inquiry.
eemom
@soonergrunt:
You’re a good man, sir. I was really impressed with your perspective on the Wikileaks mess, and your comments here are equally impressive.
I think you’re a fine example of something my husband often says about real soldiers — that unlike the politicians, warmongers, and useless gum-flappers in the emmessemm and the blogosphere — they approach these matters as PROFESSIONALS.
If I knew how to pray I’d pray about the mass on your lung. But I totally believe you when you say you’ll beat it. Take good care and please keep us posted.
Dee Loralei
@soonergrunt: So sorry to hear about your mass. I’ll keep you in my thoughts. And do let us know what you learn Monday. I’ve been on team Sooner since birth, but I’m honored to be on team SoonerGrunt.
jlo
This entire thread is way too informative and reasonable. After a day full of invective and insults I say Fuck All Y’all for no apparent reason.
Dave Fud
@soonergrunt: Ah, dammit. You’re a fav commenter. I wish this shadow over your heart were not so. Best of luck with the oncologist, and best of luck with the lawyer (?). I hope your insurance is up to par and that you are ready for a long haul to fight this thing off.
demo woman
@soonergrunt: We will be thinking of you not only on Monday but all weekend until you have further tests. Keep up your spirits.
Now get back to the snark or else we really will worry.
jlo
And I just got to soonergrunt’s post and my snark feels all too inappropriate just as the timer runs out to delete my stupid fucking comment.
RedKitten
@soonergrunt: Oh sweetie, I’m hoping with all my will that the mass turns out to be benign and easily dealt with. Please keep us posted, and I join the others in sending you all of my positive thoughts and energy.
Cat Lady
If the thunder don’t get ya, the lightning will.
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.
soonergrunt
@jlo: No problem, dude.
To everyone else, thank you all so much for the kind words. I’d be lying if I didn’t admit that I’m scared out of my mind right now, but I really meant that we need to be nicer to each other. I know as much as anyone that I can get my dander up. But let’s remember that we’re supposed to be on the same side. Most of us are Americans and we really do want for our country to be on the right side of history. Even the non-Americans want us to do right, and believe that we can and will usually. We don’t necessarily agree on the details, but (begin saccharine saying) the things that unite us are greater than the things that divide us.
Delia
@Quiddity:
And by the same token the German Empire pledged support for their weaker ally, the Austro-Hungarian Empire.
And France pledged to defend their eccentric ally, Russia.
And Great Britain pledged to uphold the territorial integrity of little Belgium.
That worked out well for everyone.
Violet
@soonergrunt:
So very sorry to hear about your mass. You’re one of my favorite commenters on BJ. Will be thinking of you on Monday and hoping it goes well. Sending positive thoughts along with everyone else, if that helps any.
burnspbesq
@Kevin:
Randy Newman is a genius. He is the Stephen Foster of our time. It’s a shame that so many people know him only for “Short People” and “I Love L.A.”
I’d love to hear somebody who can really sing – Thomas Hampson or Renee Fleming, maybe – do an album of Randy Newman songs, with a great accompanist at the piano.
Delia
@soonergrunt:
This post of yours hadn’t yet appeared when I was writing my last one. My thoughts and hopes are with you.
burnspbesq
@soonergrunt:
Kick its ass, whatever it turns out to be. Thoughts and prayers with you.
demo woman
@soonergrunt: Did you read the speech the President released about Cordoba House? I’m sure that he will take a lot of criticism from both sides because some democrats want to run away from the issue but he mentions the same things that you often do.
It is important to stand up and be on the right side of history.
birthmarker
…the things that unite us are greater than the things that divide us.
I know soonergrunt and it is good to be reminded of this. I do get discouraged about politics sometimes (usually when a republican opens his or her mouth…)
O/T I know this won’t suit the purists but you can make a serviceable guac with avocado, bottled salsa, salt and lime. Quick and you don’t have to shop for ingredients or chop.
schrodinger's cat
@FlipYrWhig: I don’t know much about your other two examples but Sri Lanka was definitely not India’s client state. The Sri Lankan government, I think it was Jai Wardhane (sp?) invited India as an armed negotiator, to help with their ongoing civil war, the Indian troops were present in Sri Lanka for a limited amount of time, I think two years, or so. The violence in Sri Lanka was spilling over to India, and so there was a good reason for India to get involved. Even after Rajiv Gandhi was assassinated by Sri Lankan suicide bombers in an election campaign no less, India did not rush to invade Sri Lanka.
Bella Q
@soonergrunt: My thoughts are with you. Masses are scary, but your dignity and grace in its face is telling. Remember to breathe; fear can make us breathe too shallowly, which isn’t helpful.
Felanius Kootea (formerly Salt and freshly ground black people)
@soonergrunt: Good luck! I read somewhere that most tumors of the heart are benign. I hope that’s the case here.
soonergrunt
@Felanius Kootea (formerly Salt and freshly ground black people): The doctor said that very thing. Of course, we won’t know until it’s out and under a microscope, but I’m looking for whatever upside I can find.
DPirate
@El Cid: Correct. Israel is a child needing a good spanking.
Kevin
@burnspbesq: Amen. Having all his albums, I’ve learned to love Randy’s voice, though.
Mark S.
@soonergrunt:
Best of luck, man. We are all pulling for you.
Vince CA
Rome, circa 100bce through 400ce. It was their modus operandi. Fight wars on behalf of client kingdoms, annex the territories and the clients, lather rinse repeat. Worked great until the whole thing collapsed on itself.
El Cid
@Stuck in the Funhouse: I’d always like to point out that it doesn’t matter in foreign policy what I might wish.
Sure, there would be lots of things different in the world if I could just will it.
Vince CA
@soonergrunt: Oh JFC. You’d better be right, man, on all points. I have an oncologist friend, and I used to think that they didn’t know what they were talking about (I watch too much theater, cf. “W;t”), but he’s one of brightest men I know. Take care, good luck.
Is it stupid to say that I couldn’t care less about all this bomb Iran nonsense? There must be a dead girl or a live boy in someone’s closet, because all this oxygen is being wasted on a non-existent problem.
I have a pet theory that the numbers aren’t looking so good for the Rethugs in November despite the math, and they’re hoping to whip up some good old-fashioned mass hysteria to bolster their cause. And then there’s my cynical theory that says these people really are just this stupid and their brains are so broken they don’t realize that they’re total fcukwits.
Viva BrisVegas
Shouldn’t the first step be to determine if Iran actually has a nuclear weapons program?
You know, just like it was determined as a certainty that Iraq had all those WMDs before we invaded.
FlipYrWhig
@schrodinger’s cat: I think I hurried past the “client state” definition in order to look for examples of larger powers involving themselves in the internal dealings of smaller neighbors… which wouldn’t apply to US and Israel anyway… so I had kind of the wrong question and wrong answer. Oh well.
IronyAbounds
JC: The answer to your question is that there is so little down side in this country for being pro-war (well, politically speaking, there is considerable downside for those who have to fight the war) and so little up-side for saying wait a fucking minute. And the reason for that is because we’ve had “We’re No. 1” and American Exceptionalism beat into our heads from day 1, so real men go to war and sissies urge caution.
NickM
Italy’s invasion of Greece and Germany’s subsequent bailout is a good example of a client state foolishly undercutting its patron’s strategic interests — but obviously very different in most other respects.
NickM
And as an almost-constant lurker, best wishes to Soonergrunt.
SRW1
The war adventurism, of all war adventurisms: Imperial Germany on the eve of WW I, when the war-drunken German press pushed for Wilhelm II confirming the alliance with Austria-Hungary, thereby giving the Austrians carte blanche to start WW I.
Elizabelle
@Vince CA:
First, soonergrunt: you’re in my thoughts. Wish you didn’t have to go through a weekend of worrying, and that all is treatable and turns out well.
Now, Vince:
I think you might be right there re internal numbers don’t look that good for Republicans.
A lot of voters have better memories than our esteemed mediapaths.
All those polls about contempt of Congress have a lot to do with the do nothing GOP and not just the overreaching (their supposition) Nancy Pelosi.
I am wondering if Obama has held on nominating Elizabeth Warren so that he can do so when he’s ready and her confirmation hearings can heat up in September or October, just as people are starting to tune in again politically.
Have the GOP stand up for banks being banksters and see how that plays.
Faisal
U.S. on behalf of Taiwan, 1970s and 1980s. Although this wasn’t quite the same — the advocates wanted to quit protecting Taiwan, which would then presumably defeat an enemy of 57 times the size and orders of magnitude more resources. So, reality, U.S. on behalf of Taiwan, advocating for Taiwan to enter a war it couldn’t possibly win, so we’d have to come to the rescue.
Also useful for pointing out who didn’t study history…
TrishB
@soonergrunt:Ah,crap. I don’t do prayers, nor do I post often, but i will keep you in my thoughts and hope for the best.
Steeplejack
@soonergrunt:
You will be in my (champagne-soaked, semi-Buddhist, tree-hugging) prayers tonight. I have been where you are. Found out I had skin cancer, fretted through a tough string of days waiting to find out if the test results said melanoma (death sentence) or what it turned out to be–basal cell carcinoma. Lots of operations, lots of expenses, but in the end endurable. And I am thankful every day to be alive. As-salamu alaykum.
Steeplejack
@Cat Lady:
Kudos. My favorite Fleetwood Mac song.
Yutsano
@Steeplejack:
I seriously read that as basil cell carcinoma and couldn’t figure out for the life of me what an herb has to do with cancer. I blame my lack of nappage this afternoon.
Steeplejack
@Cat Lady:
P.S. I can never hear “Hypnotized” without thinking of this song by Pieces of a Dream. Almost the exact same chord changes. And they fit together in a weird way. To me, at least.
454 for soonergrunt!
Steeplejack
@Yutsano:
Well, it really spiced up the pesto for a while.
Steeplejack
@Yutsano:
P.S. Liked the cartoon songs from last night, although I liked the French take on “Busted” from Phineas and Ferb better. I like all things Phineas and Ferb, and the other one was a little too “Should I be feeling a little bit creepy right now?” for my taste. Just sayin’. But thanks for posting the links.
Yutsano
@Steeplejack: Out of context Code Lyoko is an interesting study in how to push the boundaries of teenage sexuality without going too far. Just remember three things: 1) it’s from France so there’s a bit of a different sensibility on those matters at work 2) one of the characters isn’t actually human, and 3) this show aired on American TV unedited and was a big hit for awhile. It still has a big cult following.
Steeplejack
@Yutsano:
Are there any boundaries to teenage sexuality these days? But point taken.
Gen. Jrod and his Howling Army
Best of luck to you, soonergrunt.
Yutsano
@Gen. Jrod and his Howling Army: Infinitized.
Platonicspoof
@soonergrunt:
Wishing you good luck and good doctors,
and I’ll just assume we’ll be getting informed comments from you far into the future just as we have in the past.
And greater compassion doesn’t have to mean you can’t be honest in your comments, just means greater perspective.
Tsulagi
@soonergrunt:
Just saw this. Sorry to hear about that lump near your heart. Here’s hoping hard it’s benign. Sure you’re going to be shitting bricks until you find out one way or another.
If the biopsy goes the wrong way, it can be beat. Eleven years ago my mother had a very aggressive form of cancer that had metastasized by the time she was diagnosed. Her odds of not making it were in high double digits. At one point she was resigned to die believing it was God’s will, part of the Lord’s plan. She’s a practicing, and what I’d call a good Christian. A true believer. However, dad’s attitude and mine were more like fuck Jesus and the angels he rode in on. Not gonna happen without a fight.
It was a long haul, but she made it. Today her lead oncologist says she’ll likely have the same or almost the same life expectancy for a woman her age. So everything’s possible
Hope you don’t have anything worse than removal of a mass of benign crap with a scar to show for it. Good luck.
asiangrrlMN
@soonergrunt: Oh, hon. I put myself on a timeout yesterday, so I am only reading this now. I am sorry to hear about the shadow on your heart. I will be sending a strong, protective (and healing) white light in your direction and hoping with all my might that it’s benign. You are one of my favorite commenters because you are informative, passionate, compassionate, and just a damn good person. Please keep us updated. I will be thinking of you.
@Steeplejack: I’m glad you came through your ordeal as well. You are also a favorite of mine! The gentleman from Steepleville will concede the point to the gentlewoman from Minnesota.
Ruckus
@soonergrunt:
Good luck next Monday. I want to say hang tough but that seems so trite. These speed bumps in life can be pretty big but we can get over them. Try to relax, ask all the questions you need to, get a second opinion if necessary. And then follow all the instructions and don’t let that bastard get you.
When I was 45 it took the docs 4 months to find out that I didn’t really have prostate cancer. It was the longest 10 years of my life. It introduced me to a doc I wouldn’t foster on Darth Chaney and I’d let Dr. Mengele work on him. Anyway it turned out OK in the end and here’s hoping it’s OK for you too.