Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

“Perhaps I should have considered other options.” (head-desk)

Not so fun when the rabbit gets the gun, is it?

rich, arrogant assholes who equate luck with genius

Someone should tell Republicans that violence is the last refuge of the incompetent, or possibly the first.

Michigan is a great lesson for Dems everywhere: when you have power…use it!

Too often we hand the biggest microphones to the cynics and the critics who delight in declaring failure.

This blog will pay for itself.

Speaking of republicans, is there a way for a political party to declare intellectual bankruptcy?

Giving up is unforgivable.

Let me file that under fuck it.

New McCarthy, same old McCarthyism.

“The defense has a certain level of trust in defendant that the government does not.”

Hey hey, RFK, how many kids did you kill today?

Anyone who bans teaching American history has no right to shape America’s future.

Dear elected officials: Trump is temporary, dishonor is forever.

If you tweet it in all caps, that makes it true!

Republicans firmly believe having an abortion is a very personal, very private decision between a woman and J.D. Vance.

Let’s not be the monsters we hate.

Seems like a complicated subject, have you tried yelling at it?

If a good thing happens for a bad reason, it’s still a good thing.

GOP baffled that ‘we don’t care if you die’ is not a winning slogan.

Not rolling over. fuck you, make me.

Why is it so hard for them to condemn hate?

Republicans want to make it harder to vote and easier for them to cheat.

You are here: Home / Look Who’s Playing the Voice of Reason

Look Who’s Playing the Voice of Reason

by | 196 Comments

This post is in: ,

Dave Weigel reports from Grover “Drown Government In A Bathtub” Norquist:

In my conversation with ATR’s Grover Norquist, he made the counter-intuitive argument that “Republicans will lose Jewish votes by focusing on a mosque in New York.”
__
“You’re not just going to lose Muslim votes,” said Norquist, who has long argued that Republicans should win those voters. “You’re going to lose Jewish votes, Indian votes, Buddhist votes. Every member of a minority group looks at a situation like this and says, oh, the people hitting this minority will eventually start hitting me.”
__
Norquist dismissively referred the the mosque controversy as a “shiny object,” saying that it, and the Arizona immigration law, would distract Republicans from the winning issues of the economy and the Obama record and give Democrats outs, by handing them wedge issues to oppose the administration on. (We talked before Harry Reid came out against building the mosque near ground zero.)
__
“It’s a 70-30 issue that any Democrat can jump on the 70 percent side of,” said Norquist.

Of course, if not for the Democratic chickenshits, Norquist would have been just as happy to keep spinning the ‘Obama, sekrit Muslin’ phantasy — but at least we’d be on the side of reason and history. You’d think Harry Reid would know enough Mormon history not to jump on the “throw the [minority religion du jour] down the well” hysteria-wagon. Hell, you’d think that idiot Peter King would remember as far back as the anti-Irish-Catholic bigotry that our mainstream media was so eager to use against JFK. Way to give the Republicans another weapon, guys!

Reader Interactions

196Comments

  3. 3.

    Bret

    That’s not super surprising, really. Grover’s only real jihad is cutting tax rates (for the wealthy, mostly). He’s not even very conservative, otherwise, at least from everything I’ve read about him.

  5. 5.

    r€nato

    Norquist dismissively referred the the mosque controversy as a “shiny object,”

    Uh, Grover… in case you haven’t noticed, the GOP is the party of, “Look! A Shiny Object!” If it weren’t for the perpetual Republican penchant for shiny objects, Frank Luntz would be selling used cars for a living.

  6. 6.

    Boots

    Norquist is an anti-tax obsessive-really, that’s all he cares about. You could probably put a mosque in St. Peter’s Basilica and he wouldn’t notice.

  7. 7.

    August J. Pollak

    Yeah, but also keep in mind that Grover Norquist is sort of never right about anything, at all, ever. It’s quite amazing how much many he still makes from Republicans, despite being wrong about them.

    Also loving that we’re getting advice on Jewish support from the guy who compared the federal income tax to the Holocaust.

  8. 8.

    Yossarian

    Norquist has always been shockingly strong on this issue (anti-Muslim bigotry). He’s got a personal interest — his wife is a practicing Muslim.

  10. 10.

    BombIranForChrist

    And yet, we should continue to vote for Democrats, no matter how craven and spineless they are, because Palin! Pragmatism! They Are Doing the Best They Can! What More Do You Dirty Hippies Want? We Gave You a Bunch of Watered Down Crap You Disagree With! You Are Never Happy!

    etc.

  11. 11.

    JGabriel

    r€nato:

    If it weren’t for the perpetual Republican penchant for shiny objects, Frank Luntz would be selling used cars for a living.

    Metaphorically, Luntz is a kind of used car salesman anyway. It’s not as if xenophobia and bigotry are fresh vehicles.

    .

  14. 14.

    Midnight Marauder

    @August J. Pollak:

    Yeah, but also keep in mind that Grover Norquist is sort of never right about anything, at all, ever. It’s quite amazing how much many he still makes from Republicans, despite being wrong about them.

    To be fair to Grover Fucking Norquist (ugh. gross.), this is not his first time being a somewhat decent human being?

    Another explanation for the low-balling, or outright ignoring, of national security is the influence of some of the more libertarian members of the conservative movement. Their sentiments are exemplified and aggressively advanced, mostly behind the scenes, by Grover Norquist. Norquist is best known for his anti-tax activism as president of Americans for Tax Reform but, over the past 12 years, he has become increasingly associated with policies and initiatives that are strikingly at odds with the national security convictions and practices of the man he – and virtually all other conservatives – so admire: Ronald Reagan.
    __
    For example, Norquist recently wrote an open letter that charged with “scaremongering” those who opposed the Obama administration’s efforts to close Guantanamo Bay, move terrorist mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and his fellow 9/11 conspirators to trial in New York City and open a new Gitmo North in Illinois. He has inveighed for years against the Patriot Act, promoted “open borders” and sponsored a neo-isolationist organization called the American Conservative Defense Alliance. One of the Alliance’s fellows, a disgruntled ex-CIA officer named Philip Giraldi, presented a paper at a 2010 CPAC panel entitled “Why Real Conservatives are Against the War on Terror.” Giraldi told the audience that, “Fear has been the key to the door for expansion of government and government powers and the people in charge in Washington have seized the opportunity. It has also eroded the liberties that have defined us as a nation.”
    __
    As…Pamela Geller, among others, have noted, Norquist has also been a sponsor of efforts to promote in the name of GOP “inclusion” individuals and organizations associated with the Muslim Brotherhood. He seems indifferent to the Brotherhood’s self-declared mission to “destroy Western civilization from within” or the close alignment between many of his policy recommendations and the interests of the Brothers and other Shariah adherents who seek such an outcome….

    That was written by Frank Gaffney, and yes, the Pamela Geller he is referring to is the same fear-mongering bigot who got the ball rolling on the “Ground Zero Mosque” bullshit.

    So…I’m not sure what my point here is, exactly. Just that even assholes like Grover Fucking Norquist can sometimes end up on your side as a highly suspicious, unwanted, but potentially effectively ally.

    Of course, this only applies if you don’t actively seek out his support to undermine your supposed allies currently residing in the White House.

  15. 15.

    General Stuck

    . You’d think Harry Reid would know enough Mormon history not to jump on the “throw the [minority religion du jour] down the well” hysteria-wagon.

    I am sure he does, but he’s flying by the seat of his “I’ll say anything to get reelected pants”. That’s a whole other calculus in the grubbing for votes department. Either way, it is going to be likely a very close vote with Frau Angle, though I, being the ever present “every senate seat is precious crowd” can’t hold my nose tight enough to give Harry a pass on this one,

  16. 16.

    Aaron S. Veenstra

    This isn’t really news for Norquist. His wife is Arabic and is the communications director of Norquist’s Islamic Free Market Institute. It’s no great logical leap to suspect he might not be down with the GOP’s anti-Arab, anti-Muslim fearmongering.

  17. 17.

    calipygian

    Pam Geller on Grover Norquist just a few months ago:

    Grover Norquist’s ties to Islamic supremacists and jihadists have been known for years. He and his Palestinian wife, Samah Alrayyes — who was director of communications for his Islamic Free Market Institute until they married in 2005 — are very active in “Muslim outreach.” Just six weeks after 9/11, The New Republic ran an exposé explaining how Norquist arranged for George W. Bush to meet with fifteen Islamic supremacists at the White House on September 26, 2001 — to show how Muslims rejected terrorism.

    snip

    Grover Norquist should be a pariah, not a kingmaker. If we can’t get obvious enemies removed from conservative positions of leadership, we won’t get elected the kind of men — honorable men — that we need to turn the tide.

    The paranoia is shocking.

  18. 18.

    Makewi

    Just because you jokers want to pretend that this mosque = all mosques doesn’t mean that everybody else has to.

  19. 19.

    Steve

    Grover Norquist’s wife is Muslim, and the wingers consider him a jihadi-sympathizer at best. Without endorsing their lunacy, Norquist consistently dissents from the Republican hard-line on issues pertaining to Islam. The fact that he is a “voice of reason” on the mosque issue will not really come as a surprise to anyone.

  20. 20.

    Brachiator

    @BombIranForChrist:

    And yet, we should continue to vote for Democrats, no matter how craven and spineless they are, because Palin! Pragmatism! They Are Doing the Best They Can! What More Do You Dirty Hippies Want? We Gave You a Bunch of Watered Down Crap You Disagree With! You Are Never Happy!

    Give me a reasonable alternative and I will happily vote for that person.

  21. 21.

    General Stuck

    @Makewi: What Mosque does this equal for you then? You are aware that the founders and operators of the Cordoba House are fierce opponents of OBL and his crowd of jihadi’s? But I know, that could just be a ruse to incubate terror babies near the holy 9-11 site. Think of the symbolism. Think of the stupidity. Naw, just the stupidity.

  22. 22.

    r€nato

    @Steve: …aaaaand, once again, the only time a Republican develops a conscience is when something directly affects him or her. Just like how Duke Cunningham has become a champion of prison reform now that he’s in the clink himself and experiencing it first-hand.

    Or, just like how Dick fucking Cheney is amazingly tolerant of homosexuality because he has a gay daughter, but is an embarrassment to knuckle-dragging Neanderthals on all other issues.

  23. 23.

    The Populist

    Grover is from the old line of GOP thinkers who aren’t afraid to not tow the party line from time to time. I hate him, think him a fool but from time to time proves the old adage about a broken clock being right twice a day.

  24. 24.

    The Bearded Blogger

    @BombIranForChrist: The choices are:

    a) Not vote
    b) vote republican
    c) vote third party
    d) vote democratic

    Plus, you can vote for better democrats in primaries. Those are the choices. Electorally, in most elections and districts, the choice comes down to a republican or a democrat. If I have to choose between cancer and diarreah, I choose diarreah

  25. 25.

    The Populist

    @Makewi:

    It’s not really a mosque doofus, it’s an Islamic center that will have prayer rooms for the faithful AND places for non-muslims to pray too.

    Look up the meaning of Cordoba Spain and look up the plans for this dummy before spreading your idiocy germs to the rest of the board.

  26. 26.

    Midnight Marauder

    @Makewi:

    Just because you jokers want to pretend that this mosque = all mosques doesn’t mean that everybody else has to.

    Top Social Conservative Doubles Down: ‘Every Single Mosque’ In U.S. Is Terror Threat

    Bryan Fischer, who wrote a blog post this week arguing that the U.S. should have “no more mosques, period,” explained to TPM today that “every single mosque is a potential terror training center or recruitment center for jihad” and thus “you cannot claim first amendment protections if your religious organization is engaged in subversive activities.”
    __
    Fischer, the “Director of Issues Analysis” for the American Family Association, is hardly a fringe figure on the right. He’s scheduled to speak at the Value Voters Summit in September alongside Michele Bachmann, Mitt Romney, Sarah Palin and Mitch McConnell — and the AFA is a sponsor of the event.

  27. 27.

    The Populist

    @BombIranForChrist:

    Damn right. The right likes to call the left socialist, nazis, etc yet at least they have ideas, opinions and can think for themselves. It’s the right’s beacons like Palin that people need to fear. They want us all marching lock step in their way of thinking.

    Don’t believe me? Watch that video where Palin and her daughter pause and cluck their tongues and go oooohhhh when the protest lady says she’s a teacher. I’ve never seen such a thing from people with a brain.

  28. 28.

    Eric U.

    I’m sure the whole mosque thing is a problem for republicans like the Bushies who have made tons of money off of their relationships with the Saudis. The Republicans just don’t seem to be able to stop plumbing new depths of un-American behavior.

  31. 31.

    The Bearded Blogger

    @r€nato: Michael Moore had a bit about it in one of his books, a prayer asking for every republican to have a gay descendant, someone close to them with parkinson’s etc…

    @The Populist: If you call him “Grover” instead of Grover Norquist, or Norquist, it makes me think of the Sesame Street Character…

    But yeah, I think a split between old school, GWB I type republicans and current beckshit crazy republicans is about due…

  34. 34.

    Frank

    @Makewi:

    Just because you jokers want to pretend that this mosque = all mosques doesn’t mean that everybody else has to.

    Why is this particular mosque so dangerous to you, but the other existing mosque which is just four blocks away from Ground Zero is A-OK? Explain that if you can..

  36. 36.

    Frank

    @Makewi:

    Who the hell cares? If there was a poll saying 70% of all Americans support a ban of FoxNews, would you care at all? I bet you would scream First Amendment. Well, the First Amendment applies here as well.

    Speaking of polls (since you went there), a majority of the people on Manhattan support the mosque. How come you didn’t include that poll???

  38. 38.

    The Bearded Blogger

    I think this is an issue that democrats could easily turn to their advantage. There are so many non-crazy republicans on the side of the angels, this could be the perfect opportunity to paint the current republican party as the beckshit insane house of hate that it is. I picture Obama, Keith Ellison, etc doing appearances with Bloomberg, Chafee and other sane conservatives articulating just how crazy the right’s rage on this issue is, while explaining how allowing the mosque to be built is fundamentally american and a sign of strenght, and also educating people on the distinction between muslims and terrorists… it could be a real winner, I honestly think dems could gain seats in both houses given the crazyness the GOP has sunk to.

    Anyway, dems better get their shit together and act fast, 9-11 is coming up pretty soon and I’m sure that figures into the GOPs plan for this manufactured scandal. For once, I’d like to see dems acting instead of re-acting.

  39. 39.

    Makewi

    @Frank:

    If 70% of Americans said you had to stop shoving straw men up your ass I would laugh, knowing that there is no way in hell that would stop you.

  40. 40.

    The Populist

    @Frank:

    We allow these dipshits too much by letting them call it a mosque as in something you see in the middle east with minarets that call people to prayer.

    Look at the plans, it’s a community center with some pretty nice options for all religions to be involved. OBL attacked us, not the muslim world. If the muslim world really wanted to attack us, we’d know it.

    Nope, it’s easy for bigots to sell this line of crap when, correct me if I am wrong, after 9/11 even Iranians wept for the dead at candlelight vigils. A few asshats attacked us…._PERIOD. Some muslims may not love our country but they aren’t calling for our deaths.

  41. 41.

    Midnight Marauder

    @The Populist:

    Yet it’s not a mosque, it’s a community center. BIG difference.

    Oh, I am completely aware of that salient fact. I just thought it was hilarious Makewank chose to frame it’s sentence that particularly way when, in fact, the cause du jour of conservatives now is denying religious freedom to Muslims whenever and wherever they can.

  42. 42.

    The Populist

    @Frank:

    Nah, he’d be crying since that is what the GOP hardcore do. They can’t think for themselves so they get outraged at whatever the party elite tell them to.

  44. 44.

    Makewi

    “I wouldn’t say that the United States deserved what happened, but the United States’ policies were an accessory to the crime that happened.”

    Moderate.

  45. 45.

    The Populist

    @Midnight Marauder:

    Amen bud. I find it funny how the right say the left are attacking the constitution and trying to put up “activist” judges. The facts are obvious it’s the right who seem to hate the constitution and LOVE activist judges.

    They will do whatever to win. That is sad. Party first, not America first.

  46. 46.

    Allison W.

    Every member of a minority group looks at a situation like this and says, oh, the people hitting this minority will eventually start hitting me.”

    Hey, someone needs to get this message to minorities in the Republican party. In fact I believe that the real cowards here are the minorities and moderates in the republican party. Are they waiting for their party to implode before they step up or speak up? What do they have to lose? their own party has no respect for them anyway.

  47. 47.

    The Populist

    @Makewi:

    US policies do have a hand in things that have happened. If Ron Paul has anything right, it’s that.

    It’s funny how owned you are.

  49. 49.

    The Populist

    @Frank:

    Excellent point. Again, these creeps on the right just want to win. They have no concept of legitimate debate and cannot handle being proven wrong.

  50. 50.

    jfxgillis

    Anne:

    EVERYONE is misreading Harry Reid’s position, and I do mean position.

    In the place that he’s at, his primary responsibility is to get whatever he can through this Senate now.

    Anything that interferes with that is bad from his vantage point, and having the dominant issue in the political system for a month be what is fundamentally a local building code issue intereferes with his agenda. Paraphrasing: Just move the the damn thing so we can get on with things.

    It’s both small- and large-minded at the same time, but it’s not cowardice.

  52. 52.

    Midnight Marauder

    @Makewi:

    Of course, it is telling that you have yet to respond to the people rightfully clarifying that the Cordoba House is not a mosque, but rather, a community center.

    But only telling in the sense that for you to acknowledge such inconvenient facts and realities would also mean you were acknowledging that you have no point.

  53. 53.

    The Populist

    @Makewi:

    Uhhh, you are the liar. Find me a legit link proving otherwise.

    It’s a fucking community center. I feel bad for those with crappy reading comprehension.

  57. 57.

    kay

    McKINNON: Usually Republicans are forthright in defending the Constitution. And here we are, reinforcing al Qaeda’s message that we’re at war with Muslims. So we’ve got this issue; then we’ve got the 14th Amendment issue, where Republicans are saying you’re not welcome here, when we were the architects of the 14th Amendment. So, I see a bad pattern where we’re headed as a Republican Party.

    I just think the whole quote is hysterical, beginning with that first sentence.

    He’s seeing a pattern! 40 years after it became apparent, but he’s catching on!

  58. 58.

    General Stuck

    @Makewi: The straw man being shoveled up their ass are the usual suspects of xenophobes they see on their teevees every night. I would like to see the operators of this proposed community center, or whatever it is, come out and speak up what they believe. And wrap up this conjured un American unconstitutional bullshit into a spiny burrito and shoved down Glen Beckian hate mongers pie hole. Real hard like, so to leave a lasting impression.

  59. 59.

    Makewi

    In any case, the American people simply do not want THIS mosque to be built at this location. Everything else is you jokers trying to pretend how much better you are than everybody else. Only nobody much buys it outside this little echo chamber.

  60. 60.

    Midnight Marauder

    @Makewi:

    It will include a mosque. Please stop lying.

    Wait. But I thought you said it was a mosque, not that it was a facility that would include a mosque as part of its attractions? I can even show you were you explicitly referred to the Cordoba House as a mosque!

    @Makewi:

    Just because you jokers want to pretend that this mosque = all mosques doesn’t mean that everybody else has to.

    See! You thought it was a mosque! But now it will “include” a mosque, which means that the entire thing isn’t a mosque? If I’m confused with the amount of bullshit you’re spewing today, I know that you have to be borderline incapacitated by all the contradictory nonsense bouncing around the cavernous tomb you call a brain.

  61. 61.

    The Populist

    A mosque is a building that features minarets designed to support the daily call to prayer. If a building does NOT have this, it is not a MOSQUE.

    A community center (I live near one so I know how this works) has a room for prayer and always gets confused with being a “mosque.”

    Room for prayer and religious events does not equal mosque.

  62. 62.

    jl

    @The Populist: OK, that does it. No libertarian organizations can run anything ‘at’ ground zero.

    I say the magic line is, for my level of sensitivity, lemme see, a gazillion blocks between libertarians and ground zero. That will take care of them. They can build something on the farthest tip of American Samoa.

    And Paul is a Republican too. Same for them.

    Have all Republicans and libertarians denounced Ron Paul when, how, and as often as I want? No, they have not. There, that settles it.

  64. 64.

    Allison W.

    @Makewi:

    70/30

    and how much of that 70% would actually take to the streets on this issue? what percentage sees this as a deal breaker? I would bet that percentage would be around 30 or less.

  65. 65.

    StrangeAppar8us

    Quick hit and run. If it hasn’t been mentioned already, Norquist was Dubya’s unofficial point-man for Islamic interface. He used to troop Islamic dignitaries through the White House on a regular basis, and may (IIRC) have introduced Bush to Imam Rauf.

    In any event, it’s no surprise he’s urging moderation here. It’s his thing.

  66. 66.

    Makewi

    @General Stuck:

    Sweetness, surely you understand that with numbers of 70/30 against it being build there we are WELL outside the range of merely talking about conservatives. You know this. I know you know this.

    You want to make it into a bigger issue because you believe it will help with your politics. Which is sad really.

  68. 68.

    Frank

    @Midnight Marauder:

    Of course, it is telling that you have yet to respond to the people rightfully clarifying that the Cordoba House is not a mosque, but rather, a community center. But only telling in the sense that for you to acknowledge such inconvenient facts and realities would also mean you were acknowledging that you have no point.

    He is no different than your average FoxNews viewer. They get their talking points (not necessarily facts) and that’s their entire world view.

    As soon as get challenged with facts, they have no idea how to respond. Usually, as in this case, they respond with rude insults. That’s all they have.

    I ran into one a few months ago. After a few minutes of talking politics, he accused both me and Obama of being socialists. When I asked for a definition of the world socialist, he was dumb founded. Kind of how this troll is behaving. It is kind of funny because it is so predictable.

  69. 69.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Makewi: You would take a poll on Constitutional rights and allow it to control governance? Principled conservative, I see.

  70. 70.

    The Populist

    @Makewi:

    Where is my link with the plans to the building? You keep going back to your strawman argument and it means you lost.

    The COMMUNITY CENTER has a room for prayer which, of course, people will call a mosque. Go to the middle east, look at the typical mosque, then go look at the building being proposed. It’s not a fucking mosque. It will have an area to PRAY so if people want to call it that, fine, but they’d be wrong.

  72. 72.

    Midnight Marauder

    @Makewi:

    In any case, the American people simply do not want THIS mosque to be built at this location.

    @Makewi:

    It will include a mosque. Please stop lying.

    IS IT A MOSQUE OR WILL IT INCLUDE A MOSQUE?!

    In the real world, this is an important distinction. It allows us to discern whether you are an idiot who lacks critical reading and thinking skills, or if you are just an intellectually dishonest clown.

  73. 73.

    The Bearded Blogger

    @The Populist: This is the main point, really. The Bush administration, and people like S. Huntington did a great job of conflating OBL with the rest of the arab world. I think this is a chance for Obama to both do the right thing, big time, and win politically.

    @Allison W.: I think if the dem tent can accomodate Ben Nelson, it has room for sane republicans. I think someone should invite them in.

    @jfxgillis: My opinion of Reid is kind of like my opinion of Obama: each is facing a humongous challenge and is somewhat up to the challenge (Obama more so than Reid) but still inadequate to the daunting task.

  75. 75.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    Awesome, but Norquist threw in with Jane Hamsher so he’s tainted now. So fuck him.

  76. 76.

    jl

    @Makewi:

    “In any case, the American people simply do not want THIS mosque to be built at this location.”

    I do not care the ‘American people’ want or do not want regarding local decisions regarding religious organizations in Manhattan. Or anywhere else.

    I definitely do not want ‘American people’ making decisions about what should or should not be built near where I live.

    And I gladly return that favor to every other American person wherever they live, as long as they abide by the federal, state and local laws, and the Constitution. They can make their own decisions in their own communities.

    Perhaps that makes me un-American.

  77. 77.

    Frank

    @Makewi:

    Sweetness, surely you understand that with numbers of 70/30 against it being build there we are WELL outside the range of merely talking about conservatives.

    Let’s try again. The poll you are quoting includes perhaps some guy in Alaska, some guy in Montana and other NON-Manhattan people. Who cares what they think? It only matters what the people in Manhattan think. And they are for it. Hell, their people already voted for it.

    Let’s see; are you going to respond with typical tea bagger rudeness or will you actually try to debate the facts?

  79. 79.

    The Populist

    @Allison W.:

    Once it is built, I am sure some hatred will be directed at it but if the christian groups insist on building something nearby to mock these folks it’s a damn shame.

    Let’s see what they do. If they are shown to be liars, we take away their licenses and shut them down. What happened to freedom in this country, mosque or no mosque?

    Makewi seems to think we are a nation of pussies. I,for one, am not afraid of people different than me. Most Americans aren’t. To call this a mosque means people think it will be what they see in the ME. It’s NOT. The idiots whining about this center are the ones that seem to hate American values.

    This makes me sad.

  80. 80.

    The Bearded Blogger

    @The Populist: For clarification, catholics have churches and chapels, and there is a difference in liturgical terms as well as in terms of design, visibility and community implications…

    of course, distinctions are lost in the willfully ignorant

  81. 81.

    Midnight Marauder

    @Makewi:

    That would be you. Also, a bit of a useful idiot really.

    You are adorable when you’ve failed to prove a point that never existed in the first place.

    Just adorable.

  82. 82.

    The Populist

    @Midnight Marauder:

    He can’t handle being owned by the facts. He has yet to show me how it’s a mosque. I have seen the plans…this building will look like any steel and glass structure you find around NYC.

  84. 84.

    The Populist

    I’m done playing with the useful idiot troll called Makewi. I know he’s a troll and I don’t wish to tie up this debate anymore.

    He loses. As usual! LOL.

  86. 86.

    Makewi

    @Frank:

    So 9/11 was an issue for New Yorkers, or rather just those who live in Manhattan. No one else is entitled to an opinion?

    In any case, and once again because you seem intent on moving past the very specific issue at hand, opposition to this mosque (which is a majority opinion) is not the same as opposition to mosques in general.

  87. 87.

    Jay B.

    It’s such a principled opposition, that’s what I admire most about it. It says, the First Amendment SHOULD have an asterisk. It’s important for bigoted mobs to have their way — especially against a despised minority with whom we are fighting two wars against elsewhere in the world. We hate New York, except when we can stand against its diversity, then we know what’s best for it. It’s certainly showing the best face of America — stupid, shortsighted, scared, angry, hateful and bigoted. Only a fool would think this kind of idiotic freakout is beneath our dignity. We have none left.

    What an embarrassing shell of a country.

  88. 88.

    kay

    Before the lie that this is limited to this mosque takes hold, I think ugly reality has to intrude:

    In Murfreesboro, Tenn., Republican candidates have denounced plans for a large Muslim center proposed near a subdivision, and hundreds of protesters have turned out for a march and a county meeting.
    In late June, in Temecula, Calif., members of a local Tea Party group took dogs and picket signs to Friday prayers at a mosque that is seeking to build a new worship center on a vacant lot nearby.
    In Sheboygan, Wis., a few Christian ministers led a noisy fight against a Muslim group that sought permission to open a mosque in a former health food store bought by a Muslim doctor.

    It isn’t just this location. That’s a lie.

  89. 89.

    trollhattan

    @Frank:

    Kewhl, that’s kinda quasi-religious in Republican circles, at least if simul-lesbian bondage is involved. “Say ‘Hallelujah’ and give me some more fives; we’re on expense account.”

    Also, too, if one of the “tests” is, “When Saudia Arabia allows a church, then we’ll allow mosques.” how does that work with strip joints?

  90. 90.

    Svensker

    @Yossarian:

    Norquist has always been shockingly strong on this issue (anti-Muslim bigotry). He’s got a personal interest—his wife is a practicing Muslim.

    She’s Palestinian. And Daniel Pipes thinks that Norquist is probably a secret Muslim, not to mention jihadist.

  92. 92.

    Jay B.

    @Makewi:

    So 9/11 was an issue for New Yorkers, or rather just those who live in Manhattan. No one else is entitled to an opinion?

    You just wanted to feel like a victim you fucking coward. New Yorkers, who actually experienced it lived through it and got past it. Chickenshits didn’t. I guess you are in the latter.

    In any case, and once again because you seem intent on moving past the very specific issue at hand, opposition to this mosque (which is a majority opinion) is not the same as opposition to mosques in general.

    The First Amendment doesn’t have an asterisk. It’s a totally bullshit argument. Oh, sure, we hate Islam enough to freak out over a stupid fucking Islamic Center, BUT we totally respect it somewhere else. Who possibly believes that? It’s total bigotry. It’s so fucking obvious Grover Norquist sees it. Only completely disingenuous, self-deluded people afraid of being seen as total bigots think otherwise. But you’re lying to yourself and us. Coward.

  93. 93.

    Jay B.

    @Makewi:

    There is no constitutional right to build what you want wherever you want. Thanks for playing though.

    That’s why THEY HAVE ALL THE PERMITS. Thanks for the bigotry, though. Have any other pathetic arguments?

  94. 94.

    trollhattan

    @Makewi:

    [Bog help me, but here goes]

    So 9/11 was an issue for New Yorkers, or rather just those who live in Manhattan. No one else is entitled to an opinion?
    __
    In any case, and once again because you seem intent on moving past the very specific issue at hand, opposition to this mosque (which is a majority opinion) is not the same as opposition to mosques in general.

    Yup, that’s correct, since it’s not a federal project and not on federal land, there’s no jurisdiction, influence or control at work (beyond the Constitution, that is). Kind of like Confederate Southern states that fly the stars and bars. Ain’t no Yankees telling them what to do.

  95. 95.

    General Stuck

    @Makewi:

    Sweetness, surely you understand that with numbers of 70/30 against it being build there we are WELL outside the range of merely talking about conservatives. You know this. I know you know this.

    Now Scarlett, you know full well the public is often as ignorant as you until someone gives them the facts. It is an issue now, Obama took it national. Don’t think about, don’t worry about. Just watch what happens. He and others will turn this sucker into Apple Pie before the election, and even some of the brighter bulb wingnuts can see such a thing happening. The right to worship is bedrock America, and to worship anything and most anywhere you want. When an attack on that principle hits the synapse of the public, especially with full on anti jihadist muslims involved with this center, even little baby wingnut jeevus will throw a fit at the RW haters.

  96. 96.

    The Bearded Blogger

    @The Populist: Yeah…. I used to mock trolls, now I just ignore them completely…. online, at least…

    @Jay B.: I don’t know if the present are the signs of a rotten corpse or of a living body with a really bad parasitic infection. I really hope it’s the latter, there is much good in the US

  97. 97.

    Frank

    @Makewi:

    So 9/11 was an issue for New Yorkers, or rather just those who live in Manhattan. No one else is entitled to an opinion?

    Correct.

    You Republicans are so funny when you scream about state’s rights etc. State’s rights apparently only applies when it is for your causes. But in a case like this, state’s rights apparently do not apply?

    By the way, since you are so concerned about people’s opinions, before the Iraq war started we had about 70% of all Americans who were in favor of it. Considering how wrong they were, it would have been nice if we listened to the 30%, wouldn’t it? As in this case…

  99. 99.

    kay

    @Makewi:

    There is a federal law, though. Passed in 2000, because religious conservatives demanded it. Read the text I bolded. Ring a bell?

    You’re complete clowns.

    You’re renouncing your own legislation.

    The land use provisions of the Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act of 2000 (RLUIPA), 42 U.S.C. §§ 2000cc, et seq., protect individuals, houses of worship, and other religious institutions from discrimination in zoning and landmarking laws (for information on RLUIPA’s institutionalized persons provisions, please refer to the Civil Rights Division’s Special Litigation Section ).

    In passing this law, Congress found that the right to assemble for worship is at the very core of the free exercise of religion. Religious assemblies cannot function without a physical space adequate to their needs and consistent with their theological requirements. The right to build, buy, or rent such a space is an indispensable adjunct of the core First Amendment right to assemble for religious purposes. Religious assemblies, especially, new, small, or unfamiliar ones, may be illegally discriminated against on the face of zoning codes and also in the highly individualized and discretionary processes of land use regulation. Zoning codes and landmarking laws may illegally exclude religious assemblies in places where they permit theaters, meeting halls, and other places where large groups of people assemble for secular purposes. Or the zoning codes or landmarking laws may permit religious assemblies only with individualized permission from the zoning board or landmarking commission, and zoning boards or landmarking commission may use that authority in illegally discriminatory ways.

  100. 100.

    Makewi

    @kay:

    Dealing with every separate issue isn’t your strong suit I see. OTOH I would bet that any bad behavior by a Muslim be seen in the light of the individual circumstances of that issue. As you should. I guess it all depends on where you sit, you being the perfect arbiter of how to view an issue.

  101. 101.

    jl

    @Makewi:

    “So 9/11 was an issue for New Yorkers, or rather just those who live in Manhattan. No one else is entitled to an opinion?”

    Everyone is entitled to his or her opinion. But to turn it into a national political issue is either juvenile nonsense, or a very cynical and dangerous and manipulative political tactic, pure and simple.

  102. 102.

    Jay B.

    @The Bearded Blogger:

    Sure. But most people just don’t give a shit about what really made it great. The Bill of Rights represents, by far, the best ideals America had to offer. No one respects them any more. The rest of it is just window dressing.

  103. 103.

    The Bearded Blogger

    @kay: Maybe, at some point, most americans will wake up and realize the monstrous nature of the GOP. The media today serve as a kind of Portrait of Dorian Gray, shielding the ugliness… but maybe it will be too much at some point

  104. 104.

    Chyron HR

    @Makewi:

    Sweetness, surely you understand that with numbers of 70/30 against it being build there we are WELL outside the range of merely talking about conservatives. You want to make it into a bigger issue because you believe it will help with your politics.

    That’s right, folks, everyone in America is opposed to the GROUND ZERO MOSQUE. And you’re just trying to make yourselves more popular by supporting it also, too.

  105. 105.

    Makewi

    @General Stuck:

    I wouldn’t make book on that. 9/11 is a sore subject and Obama aint’ a rising star anymore.

    Maybe you could point out to kay what we talked about regarding numbers at 70% meaning that we are well outside the realm of simply talking about conservatives. She seems to have missed that.

  106. 106.

    The Bearded Blogger

    @Jay B.: Some people do… the last time there was real tyranny in US soil was a couple of centuries ago, and the progressive decline of democracy in the years since Ronald Reagan has been slow and insidious, a boling frog sort of thing, but maybe it will get to a point where it gets to be too much and people wake the fuck up.

    Of course, what really hobbles the US is the trauma of the Civil War… maybe this painful time is part of the process to finally leave that behind…

    Look, I just have to be an optimist okay? But I know how much things suck

  108. 108.

    Jay B.

    @Makewi:

    Your argument has convinced me. Because you are in a majority in a poll, religious people shouldn’t have rights.

  109. 109.

    Midnight Marauder

    @Makewi:

    Maybe you could point out to kay what we talked about regarding numbers at 70% meaning that we are well outside the realm of simply talking about conservatives. She seems to have missed that.

    Did you ever decide officially if the Cordoba House is a mosque or if it will just include a mosque?

    I need an answer, so I can know just how completely unserious you are.

    EDIT: I see that you have moved on now (back) to declaring that the 1st Amendment is rendered null and void if a majority of poll respondents say they disagree with one group’s right to religious freedom. Very well then. Carry on with the next set of inanities.

  110. 110.

    jl

    It is much more convenient to see things our way, Makewi.

    I’ll demonstrate how it works.

    Makewi; I don’t like this project, it is insensitive.

    Me: I am OK with whatever the people of Manhattan decide, as long as they use proper legal procedures to make their decision.

    We are done.

    See? Easy.

    Now we each go find better things to do with our time.

  111. 111.

    scav

    yoikes, Makewi must be really really hungry if he needs to click up this much bandwidth points.

  112. 112.

    kay

    @Makewi:

    May of this year:

    The Rocky Mountain Christian Church of Niwot, Colorado won a major victory today in federal appeals court in Denver. The Tenth Circuit Court of Appeals held in a unanimous opinion that Boulder County violated the Church’s rights under federal civil rights law, rejecting the County’s appeal from a jury verdict in favor of the church.
    The non-denominational evangelical Christian church wanted to expand its campus in exurban Niwot, five miles northeast of the city of Boulder. Boulder County refused to approve the permits to make the $30 million expansion, citing what it called the rural nature of the area. In 2006, the Church challenged that decision under the Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act (RLUIPA), a federal civil rights law which protects churches from unfair, unreasonable and burdensome land use regulations.
    In 2008, a federal jury found that Bounder County violated the Church’s rights under RLUIPA by treating it on less than equal terms with secular land users, imposing unreasonable limitations on churches in the county, and placing a substantial burden on its religious exercise. Today, the Tenth Circuit upheld that verdict, finding that the jury’s verdict was reasonable and upholding the district court’s order that the church should be permitted to build its expansion. The lower court has also approved more than $1 million in attorneys’ fees and costs that the County will have to pay to the church.

    Really. Can you get any more insane? Conservative legal foundations are suing on this exact issue, based on a 2000 law that conservatives insisted on.

    I give up. I really do.

  113. 113.

    Makewi

    @jl:

    Unless you are talking about immigration law in Arizona or the definition of marriage in California.

    BTW – Please point out where I ever said a mosque shouldn’t be built here or that they had no right to build it here. I’ll wait.

  114. 114.

    Makewi

    @Midnight Marauder:

    It’s a mosque. I know this because that’s how NPR refers to it. Also pretty much every other mainstream media outlet available to me. If it helps you to pretend otherwise, more power to you.

  115. 115.

    Frank

    @Makewi:

    BTW – Please point out where I ever said a mosque shouldn’t be built here or that they had no right to build it here. I’ll wait.

    I have asked you several times why this mosque is dangerous to us all, while the current existing mosque which is just four blocks from ground zero is just fine. I have yet to receive an answer.

  116. 116.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Makewi: Can you see the difference between concern over a denial of fundamental rights and bunch of cowards getting their underwear in a bunch over an issue that does not concern them? I doubt it.

  117. 117.

    morzer

    @Makewi:

    You really do believe that ignorance is bliss, don’t you? Incidentally, I have a second bridge available, at a very reasonable price. Same drop-off point as before?

  118. 118.

    Frank

    @Makewi:

    It’s a mosque. I know this because that’s how NPR refers to it.

    So if NPR think the world is flat, you would think the world is flat?

  119. 119.

    kay

    @Makewi:

    So, what’s it going to be? Overturn the special protect-the-churches law? Or outlaw mosques?

    Normal, rational people are confused.

    What is it, again, that conservatives stand for?

  120. 120.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Makewi:

    I know this because that’s how NPR refers to it. Also pretty much every other mainstream media outlet available to me.

    And yet, that does not make them correct. Let’s put it this way, if most mainstream media said that the Declaration of Independence was signed in 1630, would that make it correct? No.

  121. 121.

    jl

    @Makewi: If the community center people tried to illegally ram the project through against overwhelming local opposition, or the opposition grossly violated the Constitution in discriminating against a religious organization, or some law was violated, or Constitution messed with in approving, or not approving, the project, then it might be a state or national issue.

    What do the opponents have? People in other places of the country (not where the thing is going to be built) do not like the idea, or find it ‘insensitive’, some people do not find the backers moderate enough for their tastes.

    If you have something that rises to a legal or Constitutional question about how the issue is being decided, then make your case.

  122. 122.

    Makewi

    @kay:

    I do love your insistence that this is an us vs them issue of those wacky conservatives. You dug the hole and done stuck yer head right in there? Why?

  123. 123.

    Midnight Marauder

    @Makewi:

    It’s a mosque. I know this because that’s how NPR refers to it. Also pretty much every other mainstream media outlet available to me. If it helps you to pretend otherwise, more power to you.

    Oh, well, I guess if NPR is putting up the money to build the Cordoba House, they would of course be the most accurate source for what the project actually is all about.

    Just when I think you can become an even bigger joke, you manage to exceed even those lofty expectations.

  124. 124.

    pamela

    First we have to do a investigation on the 911 event: Because a build should not just COLLAPSE if a plane hit it. We are smart then that. Who blow up that build………………….Then Please tell me where the Tea party was When they start giving tax credit and outsourcing our job’s in the early 80’s. Where was the tea party when BUSH stole the election and robs American? (THIS IS NOT ABOUT COLOR THIS IS ABOUT GREEN). FEAR THEY ALWAYS WORKING WITH FEAR USE YOUR Own MIND Where was the tea party when BUSH LIE about the WAR. Where was the tea party when BUSH shot a Bird on the PUBLIC T.V. at ALL of us? Where was the tea party when they made the agreement to kill the housing market? Where was the tea party when Bernard Madoff stole people life saving! This was the BIGGEST scam of the Century>… Where was the tea party when we NEVER Found THE Weapons of MASS DESTRUCTION. WHERE WAS THE TEA PARTY IN THE 70″S WHEN MEXICANS CAME IN MILLIONS ILLEGALLY REPUBLICANS PUT US IN THIS MESS. AND YES THE Democratic PARTY IS CHANGING QUICKLY TO CHANGE ALL THE MESS. WHEN Clinton’s LEFT THE BUDGET WAS IN THE POSITIVE!! WE ARE NOT GOING TO LET THE BERNARD MAD OFF REPUBLIC steal AND LIE AGAIN FIGHTING FOR WETHEPEOPLE:

  126. 126.

    Omnes Omnibus

    You know, I just thought of something. Maybe we are being insensitive to Makewi’s feelings here. I think there is a real possibility that she is a Burlingtonian and is mourning the loss of the BCF at the site. If so, Makewi, I truly and humbly apologize on behalf of everyone here.

  128. 128.

    kay

    @Makewi:

    I think the irony is delicious. The constantly complaining conservative choir imagined religious discrimination, so passed an incredibly restrictive law that trumps local land use regs.

    Less than ten years later, it comes back and bites them right in their bigoted asses.

  130. 130.

    CalD

    I doubt any court in the land could convict me at this point if I strangled the next person who said the word “mosque” with my bare hands. This poor dead horse has been flogged to the bone and people just won’t stop flogging.

    Anyway, long term, Norquist is probably right. Short term it’s an issue that will excite the radical right-wing base a la the gay marriage amendments that Karl Rove and Co. used to finesse the 2004 presidential election or the drumbeat for war that they used in the 2002. As lame a controversy as it may be, it’s a lot better than Michelle Obama’s vacation and ultimately less dangerous for them than immigration.

    For the Left it’s a losing issue in the short term at least. Regardless of whatever Democrats may do or say about it (or not), a small but very noisy faction of us will certainly take it as (yet more) proof that Democrats suck: Obviously the president and congress should be doing more… of something!!!! (about a local zoning dispute that our side actually won before the battle was even joined). The rest of us are left shaking our heads as usual, wondering WTF the first group is all wound up about this time and frankly wishing for the thousandth time that they’d consider getting a clue at some point. So basically everyone walks away grouchy at a time when we really need to be getting up for the game.

  131. 131.

    jl

    @kay: It was clearly a plot. The reactionaries have been infiltrated. One of their leaders probably started out as a terrorist anchor baby. We are doomed.

  133. 133.

    Midnight Marauder

    @Makewi:

    It’s a mosque.

    Well, in all fairness, at one point (almost an hour ago now), you came blasting in here telling us that it was only going to include a mosque. And if you aren’t even sure yourself what it is, then how can I trust you telling me that NPR told you it was a mosque? Because did you forget about what the fine people at NPR told you when you said “It will include a mosque. Please stop lying”? That kind of incoherent message is enough to make me doubt you AND NPR.

    I understand why you want to pretend that it isn’t.

    I am not pretending that it isn’t a mosque. That is reality. Only one of us is playing make-believe in this thread.

  134. 134.

    Texas Dem

    The mosque issue doesn’t really do much to help the GOP, and in the long run may actually hurt them, because each day they spend talking about it is one less day they can spend talking about the economy–the overriding issue in the election. And it alienates other minority groups who understand quite clearly that if we can ban mosque building, it won’t be long before we’re trying to do the same thing to Hindu temples or other non-Christian religions.

    As for Harry Ried, I hate to come to the man’s defense, but his position (that they have the right to build the mosque but it would be better if if were built somewhere else) is really not very far out of line with public opinion, or Obama’s position for that matter (as amended on Saturday). The analogy here is to flag burning. Ask most folks whether they’re against flag burning and over eight percent (if not more) of them will say, “Hell yes.” But ask them whether we should amend the constitution to ban it and the polling numbers are far less clear. I say let the GOP scream about the mosque. There’s precious little they can do to stop it and they’re doing far more damage to themselves than they are to Obama or the Dems.

  135. 135.

    The Bearded Blogger

    @CalD: I think the GOPs exciting of the base has reached the point of diminishing returns. How much more excited can they get? Nuts get a vote a piece, three cornered hat or not.

  137. 137.

    Sad_Dem

    This morning on Spanish language TV the news featured a story about some teabagger candidate speaking at a rally right by the AZ border fence. The anchor specifically mentioned the Tea Party and the Republican Party in the same breath. The Southern Strategy of Nixonland worked from about 1964 to 2008. Its future is very dim. Here in California, all a Republican candidate has to do is remember what happened to Pete Wilson.

  138. 138.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    Someone explain to me why we care about where musselmen build a community center but we don’t care about a woman’s unfettered right to an abortion or that the President orders the assassination of an American citizen.

    This I gotta hear.

  140. 140.

    Joseph Nobles

    There’s going to be a gym in this mosque?! The 9/11 Hijackers trained in Gyms! Dear God in Heaven, think of the children!

    All we need now is to find an X-Box 360 with Microsoft Flight Simulator running in the place!! TRAINING TERRISTS WHILE-U-WAIT!!

  141. 141.

    Makewi

    @Midnight Marauder:

    “I was not commenting, and I will not comment, on the wisdom of making the decision to put a mosque there,” Mr. Obama said. “I was commenting very specifically on the right people have that dates back to our founding. That’s what our country is about.”

    Apparently Obama is playing make believe too.

  142. 142.

    The Populist

    @Makewi:

    (sigh) It’s because the media has sold the mosque angle. Where’s my link disproving the consensus here? Don’t have it, STFU with your trolls.

  144. 144.

    Jay B.

    I just can’t wait until they put the sacred Starbucks in the lobby of the hallowed Freedom Tower where office workers will take lunch break at the sanctified Pussycat Lounge where soul-affirming lap dances will make everyone forget the pain, if only momentarily, what happened on that infamous day when America lost its innocence.

    What a fucking farce.

  146. 146.

    The Populist

    @kay:

    The next time a religious right whiner cries to me about losing some imaginary rights I will laugh, and very loudly I might add, in their faces.

    The next time one of my con friends tells me we are losing liberty YET still have the Patriot Act (Makewi’s favorite anti-liberty, un-constitutional bill) on the books I will laugh.

    The next time a whiner tells me they lost their rights to bear arms when this President gave them MORE rights to carry openly in national parks, I laugh harder.

    See, it’s all bullshit and guys like Makewi sit here telling us lies. He can’t defend such anti-liberty positions so they make up these bullshit strawmen.

    The mosque, like HCR, Bank reform and other things will not hurt him one bit unless he lives on the public dole or is a bank executive.

  148. 148.

    The Populist

    http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/news_columnists_ezorn/2010/08/cordoba.html

    The National Review Online’s Josh Barrow is on point:

    What I find bizarre about some of the conservative response to Cordoba House is not just the objection to the construction of the mosque, but the conviction that it should be stopped by any means necessary—even if that means violating conservative principles about property rights, rule of law, and federalism.

    Part of supporting limited government is understanding that sometimes, things you don’t like will happen, and the government (especially the federal government) won’t do anything about it. Getting to do what you want comes at the price of other people getting to do what they want—including build mosques where you’d prefer they didn’t.

    He adds:

    In addition to being morally objectionable, undermining the integration and acceptance of Muslims in American society is a huge strategic error. Newt Gingrich doesn’t want mosques in Lower Manhattan until churches are allowed in Mecca—making the bizarre case that our level of religious liberty is fine so long as it is no worse than in Saudi Arabia.

  149. 149.

    Makewi

    @The Populist:

    You are a hero to the cause comrade. Valiantly making shit up and lying for the cause of good(ish). Someday pigeons will take a crap on your statue.

  150. 150.

    The Populist

    http://www.cordobainitiative.org/

    Park51 – Letter of Support to President Obama from Rabbi Burt Visotzky

    Aug 16, 2010

    Dear President Obama,

    I write to thank you for your support of the plans for the Park51 Islamic Cultural Center in Lower Manhattan and of religious freedom for all Americans. I know I speak for many, many Jewish leaders when I express my thanks for your support of Park51. I have worked with Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf and with Daisy Khan. I appreciate their commitment to interreligious dialogue and so, have been outspoken in my support for them. I can think of no better memorial to the Americans who gave their lives on Sept. 11, 2001, than a place of prayer, contemplation, and communal engagement.

    I also deeply appreciate your standing up for our freedom of religion. It is not sufficient to assert the right to build; only the free exercise of that right is a guarantee of religious freedom. I am distressed at those who would divide America and use hatred of other Americans as a political tool. I applaud your courage at speaking out on this issue. We consider support of Park51 essential to the rights of religious expression for the Jewish community, as well.

    My best wishes to you, in the hopes that you continue to serve America in helping ALL of our citizens achieve their basic rights such as healthcare, economic wellbeing, and freedom of expression and religion.

    Sincerely,

    Rabbi Burt Visotzky
    Appleman Professor of Midrash and Interreligious Studies
    Director, Louis Finkelstein Institute for Religious and Social Studies

  153. 153.

    Makewi

    @The Populist:

    I gave you Obama’s own words. What could be more bipartisan than that. You just have a hard time accepting things. It’s contrary to your marching orders on this subject.

  155. 155.

    asiangrrlMN

    @Omnes Omnibus: Best post of the thread. I pied Makeweewee a long time ago, but you guys have excerpted enough to give me the gist (not that I really needed it. I knew all the arguments without reading them). Lord. Makeweeweee is so goddamn boring.

  157. 157.

    Mnemosyne

    Well, clearly, we have to start referring to Loyola University as a church and not a college since there’s a church on the grounds and having a place of worship anywhere on the grounds of a larger complex automatically makes the whole thing a church, mosque or synagogue no matter what else is located there.

    I didn’t think I was at Mass every time I went to my algebra class, but apparently I was since every building on campus now counts as a church.

  158. 158.

    Makewi

    I can think of no better memorial to the Americans who gave their lives on Sept. 11, 2001

    Oh my, and here I thought they were murdered. My bad.

  159. 159.

    The Populist

    Found this on the Cordoba blog. Seems they are evil, EVIL! (I kid):

    http://www.cordobainitiative.org/?external_link=www.asmasociety.org/wise/

    The mission statement of Cordoba House:

    Vision
    Park51 will be dedicated to pluralism, service, arts and culture, education and empowerment, appreciation for our city and a deep respect for our planet. Park51 will join New York to the world, offering a welcoming community center with multiple points of entry.

    With world-class facilities, a global scope and strong local roots, Park 51 will offer a friendly and accessible platform for conversations across our identities.

    http://www.park51.org/vision.htm

  160. 160.

    The Populist

    @Makewi:

    Nah, you are the one having a hard time. He is misinformed like the rest of them. Repeating something a million times means others use the language as well.

    You think that defeats my argument? Try again and provide a fucking link. Mental midget.

  162. 162.

    The Populist

    @Makewi:

    Nah, he’s just poking at you because, like all you hard right tards, you cannot leave your dogma behind for a minute and provide anything resembling thoughtfulness in your responses.

  163. 163.

    The Populist

    Obama calls the center a mosque just like all the other uninformed media idiots who cannot read the info.

    I provided links that refute Makewi, he cannot do anything but play smart ass and quote the always underwhelming Obama.

  164. 164.

    Makewi

    @The Populist:

    You don’t have an argument. That is because it’s a mosque. Also because you like to fall back on easy tropes like all opposition is due to teh racisms. Because you’re smart. SMRT.

  165. 165.

    Frank

    @The Populist:

    The next time a religious right whiner cries to me about losing some imaginary rights I will laugh, and very loudly I might add, in their faces.

    Yup. The next time they whine about the fake “war on Christmas”, I will remind them about their bigotry regarding this mosque.

  167. 167.

    The Populist

    @Emma:

    I am not against this. Let’s follow the right and start cut, cut, cutting hard. When the same tards who protest loudly via tea bag events and can’t eat or work or get benefits they once got then I will turn my back and keep on working hard. I will have the last word though…I will remind them this is what they wanted so enjoy.

  169. 169.

    The Populist

    @Makewi:

    No it’s a center idiot. Keep spinning the Fox bullshit.

    A prayer center is part of it but when I see a big gigantic dome shaped thing in NYC with minarets and a guy chanting prayers, I will believe you. Until then, keep spinning.

    In the end none of this bothers me NOR does it affect me in any way. I am not one to sit here spending my days worrying about a mosque being built someplace on private property in a land that is supposed to be free and tolerant.

    I know this, you are intolerant and I am not. Enjoy trolling and you still lose like always.

  170. 170.

    Makewi

    @Frank:

    Oh dear. I think we both know that the only card you have to play is the “you guyz iz bigots” card. So the idea that you weren’t going to play it every chance you get is a pretty funny joke.

    Not Funny haha, more funny in a predictably ludicrous way.

    I’ll try not to dwell on your my bigotry is allowed by your bigotry thinking because honestly I don’t think you’d understand it.

  171. 171.

    Mike in NC

    The stupidity and hypocrisy surrounding this bogus issue are really amazing, but I can’t help but recall attending a current events seminar at the Navy Memorial in Washington several years ago. Novelist Tom Clancy was among the featured speakers, and at one point some idiot in the audience stood up and demanded to know, “What are we going to do about the Muslims in this country?”

    I half expected some wingnut response, but instead Clancy looked at the guy disdainfully and said, “Nothing. This is America.” You could tell from his expression that he wanted to add, “You dumb asshole”.

  172. 172.

    Makewi

    @The Populist:

    Oh, I’m not worried, but I appreciate your concern. I’ll reciprocate by letting you know that I’m a little worried for you about your inability to just accept that this is a mosque.

    If you can point to something that I have said which is bigoted, I’ll give you a cookie.

    SMRT.

  173. 173.

    kay

    @Frank:

    I think the next time conservative Christians want to build a megachurch on 30 acres in rural Colorado, and local residents object, and the Christians bring a lawsuit, I think we should tell them to drop the lawsuit and poll on it.
    If it polls at 51%, they can have their place of worship.
    Fair and balanced.

  174. 174.

    demo woman

    Why are folks still feeding Makewi… Makewi is obviously not a wingnut troll but just someone trying to make fun. Even wingnuts are not that transparent unless Makewi is actually Sharon Angle.. Wow a real celebrity among us.

  175. 175.

    Mark S.

    @Makewi:

    I’ll try not to dwell on your my bigotry is allowed by your bigotry thinking because honestly I don’t think you’d understand it.

    +10?

    (paint cans, not drinks)

  176. 176.

    Makewi

    Two wrongs make a right. You are probably the most put upon person in liberal land kay. It’s a wonder how you survive, what with all those evil right wing Christians running around.

  180. 180.

    The Other Chuck

    Are you guys all new here or did a gust of amnesia blow through here? Makewi is a *TROLL*. He has *NEVER* made an argument here in anything that could remotely be considered good faith. *NEVER*.

    Now that we have Kain, could we stop pretending that continuing to tolerate bottom-feeders like Makewi somehow constitutes “balance”?

  181. 181.

    Mnemosyne

    @freelancer:

    And that’s why when my co-worker sprained her ankle last week and had to go to urgent care, we all said she went to church — because having a Catholic chapel inside the hospital magically turned it into a church.

    I’m so glad we have Makewi here to clear these things up for us. Otherwise we’d sound pretty stupid calling hospitals churches and community centers mosques.

  183. 183.

    bootsy

    Honestly, Grover Norquist is just as guilty of indiscriminately killing peaceful Muslims as Bush or Cheney. Anyone who supports the Republican party in such lock-step fashion doesn’t have a right to say NO, I WILL DEFEND THIS PARTICULAR MINORITY GROUP IN AMERICA THAT MY WIFE BELONGS TO, and then pat himself on the fucking back. Not to mention that he wouldn’t defend any Muslim-American who needed gov’t help.

    I imagine that when the wingnuts find another minority to pick on (besides, let’s see, Gays, Mexicans, Latinos from all countries {’cause rethugs can’t tell the difference}, Turks, Blacks) there will be one or two token jerks on their side who will say they’ve gone “too far.” I guess they think it allows them to say that they’re not racist. Of course, they miss the fact that if you are a racist or bigot against any group, you are a bigot. You don’t get points for being only a 25% racist.

  187. 187.

    CalD

    @The Bearded Blogger: The Libertarians and fiscal con’s have been the ones getting most of the bones thrown their way lately. Social conservatives and terror-fried scaredy-cats (who still dive under the bed and dial 911 every time they see a guy with a beard walk down their street) are feeling neglected and this is an issue that makes both groups feel validated. It’s a two-fer.

  188. 188.

    toujoursdan

    WHO FUCKING CARES IF IT’S A MOSQUE? They have built new (Pentecostal) churches and synagogues in the area since 9/11. Why not a Mosque?

    It isn’t primarily a mosque. It’s a community center that includes a mosque.

    This is the official website. Here are the facilities.

    Park51 will grow into a world-class community center, planned to include the following facilities:

    * outstanding recreation spaces and fitness facilities (swimming pool, gym, basketball court)
    * a 500-seat auditorium
    * a restaurant and culinary school
    * cultural amenities including exhibitions
    * education programs
    * a library, reading room and art studios
    * childcare services
    * a mosque, intended to be run separately from Park51 but open to and accessible to all members, visitors and our New York community
    * a September 11th memorial and quiet contemplation space, open to all

    And what is the mission of this group?

    New York deserves its reputation as a peerless center of arts, culture and ideas. Park51 honors and furthers that tradition, envisioning a community center for all of us, bringing the best of the world to New York City, and New York City’s energy, diversity and aspirations to the world. Park51 will become a model for future institutions, with its inclusive focus, outstanding facilities and dedication to social needs. To realize this mission, Park51 will:

    * Uphold respect for the diversity of expression and ideas between all people
    * Cultivate and embrace neighborly relations between all New Yorkers, fostering a spirit of civic participation and an awareness of common needs and opportunities
    * Encourage open discussion and dialogue on issues of relevance to New Yorkers, Americans and the international reality of our interconnected planet
    * Revive the historic Muslim tradition of education, engagement and service, becoming a resource for empowerment and advancement
    * Connect New York’s communities to global ideas and trends
    * Commit to social justice, dignified human development and spiritual growth for all
    * Pursue the development of American Muslim identities, engaging New York’s many and diverse Muslim communities and promoting empowerment and compassion for all
    * Build partnerships and relationships with key actors and institutions who share our values, to address shared needs and solve common problems
    * Establish a state-of-the-art green facility that will serve as a model and inspiration for sustainable space, helping to advance sustainable living in urban contexts
    * Empower our communities with the skills and knowledge they need to advance in their various life stages
    * Provide financial assistance for those in need, offering subsidies for our programming and scholarships to reach new audiences and further our vision

    Yup. Got fucking Al Qaeda’s fingerprints all over it. Right?

    This is America’s “make it or break it” moment. If the right-wing succeeds in banning or even bullying this group of liberal Sufi Muslims from doing what other religious institutions do in this city all the time, then the Constitution is dead, Americans aren’t free and we will have become a de facto fascist state.

  189. 189.

    someguy

    Ol’ Grover’s married to a Niqab-wearing, allegedly fundamentalist Muslim woman, so you know they’re going to dismiss his advice on this on the grounds he’s whipped, right?

  190. 190.

    DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal)

    MakeWee: “We do agree that Obama is an uniformed idiot.”

    “Uniformed”?

    “an uniformed”??

    I suppose that’s much better than being an uninformed and illiterate idiot like yourself.

    Piss off you dumbfucking bigoted little pissant.

  192. 192.

    The Populist

    PRESIDENT BUSH’S QUOTES ON ISLAM

    In the President’s Words: Respecting Islam

    The United States is a nation dedicated to religious tolerance and freedom, and President Bush has acted to ensure that the world’s Muslims know that America appreciates and celebrates the traditions of Islam.

    # “Here in the United States our Muslim citizens are making many contributions in business, science and law, medicine and education, and in other fields. Muslim members of our Armed Forces and of my administration are serving their fellow Americans with distinction, upholding our nation’s ideals of liberty and justice in a world at peace.”

    Remarks by the President on Eid Al-Fitr
    The Islamic Center of Washington, D.C.
    December 5, 2002
    # “Over the past month, Muslims have fasted, taking no food or water during daylight hours, in order to refocus their minds on faith and redirect their hearts to charity. Muslims worldwide have stretched out a hand of mercy to those in need. Charity tables at which the poor can break their fast line the streets of cities and towns. And gifts of food and clothing and money are distributed to ensure that all share in God’s abundance. Muslims often invite members of other families to their evening iftar meals, demonstrating a spirit of tolerance.”

    Remarks by the President on Eid Al-Fitr
    The Islamic Center of Washington, D.C.
    December 5, 2002
    # “America treasures the relationship we have with our many Muslim friends, and we respect the vibrant faith of Islam which inspires countless individuals to lead lives of honesty, integrity, and morality. This year, may Eid also be a time in which we recognize the values of progress, pluralism, and acceptance that bind us together as a Nation and a global community. By working together to advance mutual understanding, we point the way to a brighter future for all.”

    Presidential Message Eid al-Fitr
    December 5, 2002
    # “Islam brings hope and comfort to millions of people in my country, and to more than a billion people worldwide. Ramadan is also an occasion to remember that Islam gave birth to a rich civilization of learning that has benefited mankind.”

    President’s Eid al-Fitr Greeting to Muslims around the World
    December 4, 2002
    # “Ours is a war not against a religion, not against the Muslim faith. But ours is a war against individuals who absolutely hate what America stands for, and hate the freedom of the Czech Republic. And therefore, we must work together to defend ourselves. And by remaining strong and united and tough, we’ll prevail.”

    Press Conference by President Bush and President Havel of Czech Republic
    Prague Castle, Prague, Czech Republic
    November 20, 2002
    # “Some of the comments that have been uttered about Islam do not reflect the sentiments of my government or the sentiments of most Americans. Islam, as practiced by the vast majority of people, is a peaceful religion, a religion that respects others. Ours is a country based upon tolerance and we welcome people of all faiths in America.”

    Remarks by President George W. Bush in a statement to reporters during a meeting with U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan
    The Oval Office, Washington, DC
    November 13, 2002
    # “We see in Islam a religion that traces its origins back to God’s call on Abraham. We share your belief in God’s justice, and your insistence on man’s moral responsibility. We thank the many Muslim nations who stand with us against terror. Nations that are often victims of terror, themselves.”

    President Hosts Iftaar Dinner
    Remarks by the President at Iftaar Dinner
    State Dining Room
    # “Islam is a vibrant faith. Millions of our fellow citizens are Muslim. We respect the faith. We honor its traditions. Our enemy does not. Our enemy doesn’t follow the great traditions of Islam. They’ve hijacked a great religion.”

    Remarks by President George W. Bush on U.S. Humanitarian Aid to Afghanistan
    Presidential Hall, Dwight David Eisenhower Executive Office Building, Washington, D.C.
    October 11, 2002
    # “Islam is a faith that brings comfort to people. It inspires them to lead lives based on honesty, and justice, and compassion.”

    Remarks by President George W. Bush on U.S. Humanitarian Aid to Afghanistan
    Presidential Hall, Dwight David Eisenhower Executive Office Building, Washington, D.C.
    October 11, 2002
    # “All Americans must recognize that the face of terror is not the true faith — face of Islam. Islam is a faith that brings comfort to a billion people around the world. It’s a faith that has made brothers and sisters of every race. It’s a faith based upon love, not hate.”

    President George W. Bush Holds Roundtable with Arab and Muslim-American Leaders
    Afghanistan Embassy, Washington, D.C.
    September 10, 2002
    # “If liberty can blossom in the rocky soil of the West Bank and Gaza, it will inspire millions of men and women around the globe who are equally weary of poverty and oppression, equally entitled to the benefits of democratic government. I have a hope for the people of Muslim countries. Your commitments to morality, and learning, and tolerance led to great historical achievements. And those values are alive in the Islamic world today. You have a rich culture, and you share the aspirations of men and women in every culture. Prosperity and freedom and dignity are not just American hopes, or Western hopes. They are universal, human hopes. And even in the violence and turmoil of the Middle East, America believes those hopes have the power to transform lives and nations.”

    President George W. Bush Calls for New Palestinian Leadership
    The Rose Garden, Washington, D.C.
    June 24, 2002
    # “When it comes to the common rights and needs of men and women, there is no clash of civilizations. The requirements of freedom apply fully to Africa and Latin America and the entire Islamic world. The peoples of the Islamic nations want and deserve the same freedoms and opportunities as people in every nation. And their governments should listen to their hopes.”

    Remarks by the President George W. Bush at the 2002 Graduation Exercise of the United States Military Academy
    West Point, New York
    June 1, 2002
    # “America rejects bigotry. We reject every act of hatred against people of Arab background or Muslim faith America values and welcomes peaceful people of all faiths — Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Sikh, Hindu and many others. Every faith is practiced and protected here, because we are one country. Every immigrant can be fully and equally American because we’re one country. Race and color should not divide us, because America is one country.”

    President George W. Bush Promotes Compassionate Conservatism
    Parkside Hall, San Jose, California
    April 30, 2002
    # “We’re taking action against evil people. Because this great nation of many religions understands, our war is not against Islam, or against faith practiced by the Muslim people. Our war is a war against evil. This is clearly a case of good versus evil, and make no mistake about it — good will prevail.”

    Remarks by the President George W. Bush at a Town Hall Meeting with Citizens of Ontario
    Ontario Convention Center, Ontario, California
    January 5, 2002
    # “Eid is a time of joy, after a season of fasting and prayer and reflection. Each year, the end of Ramadan means celebration and thanksgiving for millions of Americans. And your joy during this season enriches the life of our great country. This year, Eid is celebrated at the same time as Hanukkah and Advent. So it’s a good time for people of these great faiths, Islam, Judaism and Christianity, to remember how much we have in common: devotion to family, a commitment to care for those in need, a belief in God and His justice, and the hope for peace on earth.”

    Remarks by the President in Honor of Eid Al-Fitr
    The Diplomatic Reception Room
    December 17, 2001
    # “The teachings of many faiths share much in common. And people of many faiths are united in our commitments to love our families, to protect our children, and to build a more peaceful world. In the coming year, let us resolve to seize opportunities to work together in a spirit of friendship and cooperation. Through our combined efforts, we can end terrorism and rid our civilization of the damaging effects of hatred and intolerance, ultimately achieving a brighter future for all.”

    President’s Message for Eid al-Fitr
    December 13, 2001
    # “According to Muslim teachings, God first revealed His word in the Holy Qur’an to the prophet, Muhammad, during the month of Ramadan. That word has guided billions of believers across the centuries, and those believers built a culture of learning and literature and science. All the world continues to benefit from this faith and its achievements.”

    Remarks by the President George W. Bush At Iftaar Dinner
    The State Dining Room, Washington, D.C.
    November 19, 2001
    # “The Islam that we know is a faith devoted to the worship of one God, as revealed through The Holy Qur’an. It teaches the value and the importance of charity, mercy, and peace.”

    President George W. Bush’s Message for Ramadan
    November 15, 2001
    # “This new enemy seeks to destroy our freedom and impose its views. We value life; the terrorists ruthlessly destroy it. We value education; the terrorists do not believe women should be educated or should have health care, or should leave their homes. We value the right to speak our minds; for the terrorists, free expression can be grounds for execution. We respect people of all faiths and welcome the free practice of religion; our enemy wants to dictate how to think and how to worship even to their fellow Muslims.”

    President George W. Bush Addresses the Nation
    World Congress Center, Atlanta, Georgia
    November 8, 2001
    # “All of us here today understand this: We do not fight Islam, we fight against evil.”

    Remarks by President George W. Bush to the Warsaw Conference on Combating Terrorism
    November 6, 2001
    # “I have assured His Majesty that our war is against evil, not against Islam. There are thousands of Muslims who proudly call themselves Americans, and they know what I know — that the Muslim faith is based upon peace and love and compassion. The exact opposite of the teachings of the al Qaeda organization, which is based upon evil and hate and destruction.”

    Remarks by President George W. Bush and His Majesty King Abdullah of Jordan
    The Oval Office, Washington, D.C.
    September 28, 2001
    # “Americans understand we fight not a religion; ours is not a campaign against the Muslim faith. Ours is a campaign against evil.”

    President George W. Bush Remarks by the President to Airline Employees
    O’Hare International Airport, Chicago, Illinois
    September 27, 2001

    “The terrorists are traitors to their own faith, trying, in effect, to hijack Islam itself. The enemy of America is not our many Muslim friends; it is not our many Arab friends. Our enemy is a radical network of terrorists, and every government that supports them.”

    President George W. Bush’s Address to a Joint Session of Congress and the American People
    United States Capitol, Washington, D.C.
    September 20, 2001
    # “I’ve made it clear, Madam President, that the war against terrorism is not a war against Muslims, nor is it a war against Arabs. It’s a war against evil people who conduct crimes against innocent people.”

    Remarks by President George W. Bush and President Megawati of Indonesia
    The Oval Office, Washington, D.C.
    September 19, 2001
    # “The face of terror is not the true faith of Islam. That’s not what Islam is all about. Islam is peace. These terrorists don’t represent peace. They represent evil and war.”

    Remarks by the President at Islamic Center of Washington, D.C.
    Washington, D.C.
    September 17, 2001

  193. 193.

    The Populist

    @Makewi:

    It’s a center idiot. Prove it isn’t. If it were a mosque it would be the thing they build. Look at the artist drawing on the building, sure as hell doesn’t look like a Mosque to me. Sure they can pray there but it’s not a fucking Mosque idiot.

  194. 194.

    The Populist

    @maus:

    It has a component for prayer that many keep calling a mosque but overall so do I. Why people confuse law obiding, decent muslims with terrorists is something that makes me very sad.

  195. 195.

    The Populist

    Definition time:

    mosque [mɒsk]
    n
    (Non-Christian Religions / Islam) a Muslim place of worship, usually having one or more minarets and often decorated with elaborate tracery and texts from the Koran Also called masjid musjid
    [earlier mosquee, from Old French via Italian moschea, ultimately from Arabic masjid temple, place of prostration]

    Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003

    Okay, class…using this argument a mosque is an ISLAMIC house of worship yet Cordoba House has basketball courts, places for all religions to come in and pray, talk, learn, etc. Educational centers and an area for muslim prayer. Free places for any group to meet that lives in NYC. They are giving offices to any religious groups.

    If this were a mosque, it would be a building of a specific design for true believers of the Islamic faith. This is NOT a mosque.

    Believe what you want, keep closing that mind and stop the silliness. The fact that the only argument you have with those who are more knowledgable is to keep repeating the same refrain with nothing but troll like intensity.

  196. 196.

    NotOnScript

    I’ve been having trouble sleeping and came across this thread. I’m not interested in getting into the appropriateness of calling the Cordoba House / Community Center at Park51 a “mosque”. Their website states:

    Cordoba House will be developing under the leadership of Imam Feisal Abdul-Rauf, a program manager for Park51 in the interim stage.

    Maybe that title “Imam” has the wingnuts all a-scared. That sounds Muslim. And you know what? Why should I be afraid and angry too? Isn’t that all the wingnuts have, venal and petty emotions? It’s up to them to give reasons for action, not merely whine about their feelings. “Gosh, those 9/11 hijackers mentioned the Quran, so no one else can talk about it without my feelings being hurt!” What’s next, will we need to start rooting out Mennonites because the Wright Brothers’ father was a priest with the Church of the United Brethren in Christ, and you know what the Wright Brothers invented? And guess what day that invention played a big role?

    All this time I thought the “liberals” were the “touchy feely” ones, the ones who didn’t believe in disciplining their emotions.

    I’m tired of having to cater to people who are offended by their own shadows. I’m tired of living in a country where fear and anger are the only things that matter. I’m certainly tired of alleged leaders who think anger and fear can be appeased.

    It’s true that the wingnuts will always be with us, but I don’t understand why their views get such an audience. I’m absolutely convinced that the wingnuts are trying to write a Dred Scott v. Sandford for the 21st century: “Muslims have no rights which any Christian is bound to respect.” No matter how much finesse they may try to pile on, I just don’t see how their opposition in this case is anything other than this.

Comments are closed.