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You are here: Home / Open Threads / Mosque elections

Mosque elections

by | 90 Comments

This post is in: 

I thought you didn’t roll a new product out in August, but whatev:

The November elections are very close to becoming—if they haven’t already so become—the first national elections in the United States whose results are determined by the location of a mosque. Call them, in fact, the “Mosque Elections.”

Forget health-care reform and unbridled stimulus spending; forget perceived errors in Iraq and Afghanistan; forget unemployment and our economy’s endless night; forget, if you can, the toxic questions of illegal immigration and oil spills in the Gulf of Mexico. If the promoters of the mosque near ground zero do not pack up their Korans and prayer mats within the next week or so, there is every danger that they will cause the Democrats grievous harm in November—in an election that is already one in which the Democrats are bracing for a rout.

I’m never quite sure that Tunku is on the up and up.

I continue to believe that once the Aaron Schock sex tape hits the internets, people will mostly forget about this issue.

(h/t commenter Violet)

Reader Interactions

90Comments

  1. 1.

    beltane

    If this is the issue that makes people vote Republican, our country will truly be deserving of 50% unemployment and widespread misery.

    I don’t see the media being able to maintain outrage over this for much longer. Too many other shiny objects out there.

  2. 2.

    morzer

    Speaking for myself, I prefer Tunch to Tunku. Tunch just seems more real, if you know what I mean.

  9. 9.

    JGabriel

    Tunku Varadarajan:

    Now imagine that you’re a Democrat in a tight race … If you support Obama on this question, you open yourself up to full-bore fire from the populist right.

    … Who, like Varadarajan, will never vote for you anyway! So why worry about them?

    .

  12. 12.

    Omnes Omnibus

    Fear and greed, greed and fear, it occurs to me that most actions of the right wing are attributable to these motivations, either separately or in concert. I know it is not the most original thought, but I thunk it anyway.

  13. 13.

    beltane

    @Allison W.: God forbid the media talk about actual issues of substance. It’s so much more fun talking about a not-a-mosque being built not-at-Ground-Zero where all kinds of kooks and bigots can be brought on air to entertain the public.

  16. 16.

    HumboldtBlue

    So, it seems we’re in the business of making future predictions based on absolutely no evidence whatsoever. Cool. I want to play.

    Democrats will win 4,389 Congressional seats in November, they will also dominate the Senate by getting 421 people elected and the President will finally come clean about his Jihadi past by presenting his birth certificate, written in FARSI! … or … ummm … Arabic, i forget which one is more evil and unmerkun.

  18. 18.

    Sentient Puddle

    @Allison W.: Blast, and my comment was going to be “Remember a time when health care reform was supposed to be the biggest issue in 2010 elections EVAR?” Looks like I lose. Maybe I can say the oil spill?

    In any case, point here is that the public is ADD. This issue won’t matter one iota to the general voting population in November.

  21. 21.

    waynski

    I’m so fucking sick of this. I live across the street from Ground Zero and the community center is not at the site and Newt Gingrich is a bloody racist. This was decided by the community. What happened to Rethugs believing in local control? This is the worst demagoguery I’ve seen since Willie Horton.

  22. 22.

    zattarra

    Really, somebody thinks this is an election issue? Somebody really believes that someone who was going to vote Democrat is now going to vote Republican because of this? What world does this guy live in. People influenced or ginned up by this garbage have already decided how they are voting. Every poll that ranks election issues has the economy and jobs way out in front – the only thing this is going to influence is keeping both parties on this and off message. Which might be a good thing. Every day that Republicans and Fox News spend ginning up religious hatred from the already bigoted is once less day they spend lying about the economy.

    How much Republican economic hypocrisy have you heard since last Friday? Since it doesn’t matter what Democrats say about the economy because 75% the news won’t cover it and the other 25% will whine that Dems sold them out getting something done what really matters is keeping Republican lies about jobs, the stimulus and the economy off the news. This seems to work pretty well.

  23. 23.

    Kryptik

    @Lolis:

    Sadly, the gutteral takeaway from it will probably still linger like a festering cold sore for years to come.

  25. 25.

    JGabriel

    Lolis:

    This controversy will be out of mind in a week tops.

    You’re kidding, right? I know people who still make Chappaquiddick jokes, and who still loathe Jimmy Carter for boycotting the Olympics.

    This will become part of the pile of folkloric ‘evidence’ that proves Barack Obama is a Blackity Black Black Indo-Kenyan Muslim SociaIist Commie Gay Mexican Usurper-Traitor. (Did I miss anything?)

    .

  27. 27.

    Sentient Puddle

    @JGabriel:

    I know people who still make Chappaquiddick jokes, and who still loathe Jimmy Carter for boycotting the Olympics.

    But these are the kinds of people who already are voting for Republicans in November (and every other election). These aren’t the things they can leverage into election issues. Park51 will be in the same bucket.

  29. 29.

    Napoleon

    @JGabriel:

    You’re kidding, right? I know people who still make Chappaquiddick jokes, and who still loathe Jimmy Carter for boycotting the Olympics.

    The people who do that are not going to vote for a Dem in a million years anyways, and it they talk about Jimmy Carter, that bridge and the “mosque” the other 65-70% population that are not wacko know to tune them out on everything.

  31. 31.

    Kryptik

    @Sentient Puddle:

    But it’s still the same sort of bite-sized folkloric nonsense that causes people to reflexively tilt Republican without ever understanding what it really is. This is shit that gets passed down generations.

  32. 32.

    stuckinred

    @Alice Blue: I’d say “the most”. Of course it’s a bit different over here in Athens but cross that Clarke County Line and he’s public enemy #1!

  33. 33.

    Suffern ace

    Seriously? Who is running on this issue? Sarah p? Newt? Mitt? Glenn? Rupert? Rush? Roger Ailes? They aren’t running. And what do the candidates who might want to run on this say they plan to do about it? Oppose it? Or like Reid, wish it would be someplace else? Peter King isn’t in danger of losing his seat anyway and neither is Nadler. Lazio isn’t going to beat Cuomo. I’d rather we were done with this matter and I would rather the whole thing just went away. But since Newt is not likely to shut his piehole unless someone fills it, we’re going to need to continue to hear about this.

  35. 35.

    ThatLeftTurnInABQ

     

    Call them, in fact, the “Mosque Elections.”

    We are the indepedent voters who don’t care about the economy, health care, immigration, or anything else but this one issue. We are the Sultans of Swing!

  36. 36.

    New Yorker

    If this is indeed a more important issue than the economy, the deficit/taxes, Iraq/Afghanistan, and about a googol of other issues, then we really deserve to be ruled by Queen Sarah the Stupid come 2012.

  37. 37.

    TomG

    I live in NY State and the governor decided to jump in as well. He’s talking about a meeting next week with Muslim leaders – he’s hoping to persuade them to agree to move the community center further away from Ground Zero.
    What made him think it was any of his business ???

  38. 38.

    FlipYrWhig

    Remember when the big issue of the week was that Obama said we should keep our tires inflated to the proper pressure, and Republicans thought it was hilarious and started waving tire gauges around?

  39. 39.

    Svensker

    The new thing about Cordoba House is that it is “600 feet!” from Ground Zero.

    Also, why the fuck do we have to call it Ground Zero? It was a terrible thing that happened. I knew a couple of people who died and a bunch of people who escaped dying. But it’s over. Gee whiz, if we’d undergone what many other countries in the world have experienced, apparently we’d all be in the psych ward. Grow up! What a bunch of whiny babies.

  40. 40.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    I continue to believe that once the Aaron Schock sex tape hits the internets, people will mostly forget about this issue.

    also, too, the three straight days of drunken rage tweets from Meghan McCain when she’s not in it.

  41. 41.

    fasteddie9318

    @HumboldtBlue:

    the President will finally come clean about his Jihadi past by presenting his birth certificate, written in FARSI! … or … ummm … Arabic, i forget which one is more evil and unmerkun

    Who cares? They’re both scrawly gibberish that real ‘Murkens don’t need to know about.

  42. 42.

    Kryptik

    @FlipYrWhig:

    Is it that I wish we could go back to that kind of absurdity? At least that was stupid but mostly harmless demagoguery. What’s going on currently is just vile and makes me depressed about the future of the US, no matter who’s fucking in charge.

  44. 44.

    Kryptik

    @fasteddie9318:

    At least it’s not Spanish! God forbid if we found out he was a border jumper! I mean…he terk the most ‘mportant jerb in our country!

    @Cris:

    And the ‘shorter’ added on as a caption for that post is exactly why I’m so goddamn reflexive about this issue. Every single thing I’ve seen from the Republicans has been about trying to define who is or is not really ‘American’.

    Am I not really American because I wasn’t born white? Am I not really American because I don’t happen to ascribe to a religion? Or because I’m (gasp) Liberal? Or because I’m not rich?

    They want to keep ‘America’ for themselves, and every unlucky dumb motherfucker that wasn’t born White, Anglo, Christian, and Rich might as well be born in Switzerland or something.

  45. 45.

    Frank

    @zattarra:

    Really, somebody thinks this is an election issue? Somebody really believes that someone who was going to vote Democrat is now going to vote Republican because of this? What world does this guy live in.

    But then why did Harry Reid, our fearless “leader”, cave on this issue? And why has every local Democratic Congressman from New York either been quiet or opposed to the mosque? Where has Weiner been? Schumer? And don’t get me started on Paterson who has been suggesting that he has land somewhere else to put the community center/mosque.

  47. 47.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Svensker:

    Grow up! What a bunch of whiny babies.

    Yup. It’s the politicized version of the kind of sentimentality-porn of people who convinced themselves they were really sad when Princess Diana died, exacerbated by that bent of modern American right-winger who convinces him/herself that they’re really tough cause they’re so scared, that claiming victimhood makes them courageous, that they’re persecuted if they can’t control other people’s lives.

  48. 48.

    Comrade Colette Collaboratrice

    @Alice Blue:

    Ask any independent voter what he/she believes and it’ll be whatever they read on the last bumper sticker they saw.

    Then let’s hope it’s that old chestnut: “Jesus Loves You … Everyone Else Thinks You’re an Asshole.”

  49. 49.

    Zandar

    “PROTIP: Republican bigots looking for an excuse to hate Obama without appearing racist will not vote for Democrats in close races and will continue to hate Obama because he likes Muslims and that’s still socially acceptable.”

    Well, my work here’s done.

  50. 50.

    Redshift

    @waynski:

    What happened to Rethugs believing in local control?

    They firmly believe in state and local control, except when local authorities decide wrong, and then the federal government should override them, whether or not they have any authority to do so. Exactly how this differs from not believing in local control at all is left as an exercise for the reader.

  51. 51.

    gordo

    “I’m never quite sure that Tunku is on the up and up.”

    ummm….no. the guy is a dedicated hack.

  52. 52.

    Suffern ace

    @TomG: Patterson isn’t running so he has nothing to lose at this point by interfering to get this controversy to simmer down. Before the stupid happens. Since the latest line of attack is on Rauf himself (he’s no different than an Iranian ayatolla, and the two state solution for Palestine imvolves having to deal with Hamas, don’t you know) I think he is probably the best one to do this as a lame duck. I really don’t blame the dems for stepping back on this one. it’s as if the entire fucked up history of the us involvement in the middle east needs to be addressed at this point in order to start construction. Not something the zoning board or the state governor is equipped to handle.

  53. 53.

    Cris

    @Svensker: Also, why the fuck do we have to call it Ground Zero?

    I sympathize. Horrible, unconscionable, painful as 9/11/01 was, it was not 8/6/45.

    But we’re stuck with the name, and really, it’s technically correct. It was an epicenter, and the aftershocks shook the world. What bothers me is not the use of the word, but the implication that Lower Manhattan is the ground zero.

  54. 54.

    Mike in NC

    Do we actually have to hear about this shit until November?

    The media and GOP will keep picking the scab like they did with the Rev. Wright tapes that were played 24/7 right up until election night 2008, but the rule says each and every day must bring a brand new Obama outrage over which conservatives must flagellate themselves. Ten long weeks to go, folks.

  55. 55.

    williamc

    Sorry been out in the real world for a while (but still been lurking and enjoying the BJ snark), and I know this thread should be about hating on mooslem haters, but is there really an Aaron Shock sex tape out there or was that a made-up rumor?

    My spends-too-much-time-in-politics fantasy for the past couple of years is to meet Mr. Shock, screw the Con out of him, and live a happy life as the spouse of a congressperson, all the while pulling the strings a la Lady McBeth until me and Mr. Bluebelt are sitting pretty in the white house, gaying it up.

    Nothing hoter than screwing a gay Republican; its like sex after a fight, except the fight never ends because they are evil and never learn.

  56. 56.

    gordo

    just to clarify….Tunku is part of the Hoover Institution. an organization which exists, at this point, to showcase (and reward) ethnic minorities making counter-intuitive arguments against their own heritages for the benefit of sustaining odious beliefs among the “conservative” masses. Tunku may not be completely aligned with people’s “standard” perception of conservative hacks, but he does have a particular agenda (mostly concerning his own notoriety), and he slavishly adheres to it.

  57. 57.

    Keith G

    Really, somebody thinks this is an election issue?

    It’s seems that it could become one for me.

    But then why did Harry Reid, our fearless “leader”, cave on this issue? And why has every local Democratic Congressman from New York either been quiet or opposed to the mosque? Where has Weiner been? Schumer?

    I’m beginning to get really hateful toward the leadership of my party, and disillusioned to the point of emptiness.

    Ya gotta believe in something; ya gotta stand for something. This group of Dems don’t and I am ashamed of my party.

    And fucking Obama, instead of clarifying his previous statement should have said, “Shit yes, they should build a community center there. Why not?”

    It’s to the point that we do not need a professor. We need a leader.

  58. 58.

    Suffern ace

    @Frank: if I were running for office I wouldn’t step anywhere near this except for the “constitutionally protected, just not there” position that is going to be the standard democratic response. The way this could alter an election is if a candidate was percieved as telling his voters that their concerns were stupid…and there are democrats who are concerned. This is a wedge issue for democrats. Democrats need to tread carefully in this one. Very few democrats get elected by telling off voters in town halls. So yeah, I would hope to stay out of this one if I could. If I’m running in syracuse or Utica, Why would I jump in?

  59. 59.

    Lolis

    @ Keith G

    It is bizarre to think a president should openly rally for any religious community center. Separation of church and state, people.

    I do think most normal people will forget about this, if they have even heard of it. I have not heard one person mention any of this in my day to day conversations. By normal people of course wingnuts are excluded. The economy sucks and most people outside of NYC do not care about a building very far from where they live.

  60. 60.

    Frank

    @Suffern ace:

    Because the people that truly cares about this are going to vote Republican anyway. And those that don’t, are likely to vote Democratic. The economy will drive this election, not the community center/mosque. In other words, they are not going be hurt by this issue.

    By the way, I remember when Benazir Bhutto returned to Pakistan and ran for election. She knew full well that she could easily get assassinated. In spite of this, should stood for what she believed in. Compare this to Harry Reid (or Weiner or Schumer or the rest of them) who caved as soon as FoxNews opened its mouth. Who would you rather have in your party as a leader?

    Did this help Reid’s re-election prospects? Perhaps. Perhaps not. I’m to the point where I have gone from thinking about donating money to his campaign to where I don’t even care if he wins or loses. I believe in the First Amendment. Reid doesn’t.

  62. 62.

    ...now I try to be amused

    As Obama said at the Democratic National Convention:

    “They make a big election about small things.”

  64. 64.

    Keith G

    @Lolis:

    It is bizarre to think a president should openly rally for any religious community center. Separation of church and state, people.

    With respects, I find that a bit strange. Most in our society expect our leaders to advocate for the positive influence of “communities of faith” in our greater community.

    I can’t keep tract of the extensive list of Presidential appearances at churches, shelters, schools and recreation centers run by this religious group or that.

  65. 65.

    morzer

    Jumping away from the topic of attention-seeking whores and sex-tapes almost totally.. it seems that Grandpa Mercenary the modest and retiring Brett Favre has, to no one’s surprise, decided that another season with the Vikings ought to be inflictedbestowed on a lot of people who wish he would finally wander off into self-gratifying obscurity grateful nation.

  66. 66.

    FlipYrWhig

    @Keith G:

    And fucking Obama, instead of clarifying his previous statement should have said, “Shit yes, they should build a community center there. Why not?”

    Yeah, but that gets hung up on “should.” I’d go with, “Shit yes, they _can_ build a community center there. Why not?” Or “Shit yes, they _should be able to_ build a community center there. Why not?” But “they should build there” sounds like a different beast, I guess because it’s prescriptive rather than just factual.

    I think I, in his position, if asked, “Should they build it there?” would say something like “I don’t see why not.” But it doesn’t seem entirely appropriate to say, “Yes.”

    Like if someone asked him, “Do you support the big ‘Cauliflower Tastes Terrible’ rally,” I would expect him to say something like, “I certainly respect their right to say it, in accordance with laws and regulations.” And if the follow-up was, “OK, but do you think it’s a good idea,” what is he going to say?

  67. 67.

    Linda Featheringill

    Finally got off from work and read Dana Milbank’s article on tolerance then and now.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/16/AR2010081604681.html?hpid=topnews

    I liked the essay.

    One interesting thing is that, according to Google, Newt was right. Saudi Arabia is quite intolerant of other religions. The other Islamic countries are much more tolerant, though, to both Christians and Jews.

    Now if Saudi Arabia wanted to build a mosque at Ground Zero, that might be another issue.

  68. 68.

    FlipYrWhig

    @Frank:

    In spite of this, should stood for what she believed in. Compare this to Harry Reid (or Weiner or Schumer or the rest of them)

    What makes you think this isn’t what they really believe?

  69. 69.

    MarkJ

    So a Mosque that isn’t a mosque, at groud zero – even though it isn’t at ground zero – being organized by a Islamic leader that the Bush administration partnered with, will hurt the electoral chances of democrats – even though the democratic party has nothing to do with this thing being built?

    The logic of Stanford/NYU professors is so incredibly hard to follow.

  70. 70.

    ...now I try to be amused

    One interesting thing is that, according to Google, Newt was right. Saudi Arabia is quite intolerant of other religions.

    No surprise there. To the House of Saud and their Wahhabi backers, all of Saudi Arabia is Islam’s equivalent of Vatican City.

  72. 72.

    Frank

    @FlipYrWhig:

    If so, it would be just as disgusting.

    By the way, I’m reminded of the group from Missouri (Phelps?) who are protesting at funerals. The Supreme Court yesterday affirmed their right to do that. I don’t recall Gingrich or FoxNews yesterday getting bent out of shape over it.

    But a peaceful Muslim group building a community center – OMG – let’s all become big whiners!

  74. 74.

    Frank

    @Linda Featheringill:

    From your article:

    “President Obama has this all wrong and I strongly oppose his support for building a mosque near Ground Zero, especially since Islamic terrorists have bragged and celebrated destroying the Twin Towers and killing nearly 3,000 Americans.”

    — Jeff Greene, Democratic candidate for Senate in Florida

    I think it is safe to say that BOTH parties suck big time.

  75. 75.

    Mayur

    @Frank: Aaaand this is what drives me crazy.

    An open question to the “sensible centrists” out there: Is there real evidence to the effect that the sort of cowardice demonstrated by Harry Reid or Jeff Greene gets enough votes to make it worthwhile? I’m asking this sincerely.

  76. 76.

    bobbo

    Hell, I hope the Republicans do run on this. I hope they make this their signature issue. Every dollar they spend on it is a dollar they don’t spend on how terrible the economy is.

  78. 78.

    kay

    @Mayur:

    The other explanation is Harry Reid and Greene are religious bigots who believe all Muslims are terrorists.

    They mean it.

    I don’t know that that’s such a big stretch. Certainly within the realm of possibility.

  79. 79.

    Keith G

    @FlipYrWhig:

    Yeah, but that gets hung up on “should.” I’d go with, “Shit yes, they can build a community center there. Why not?” Or “Shit yes, they should be able to build a community center there. Why not?” But “they should build there” sounds like a different beast, I guess because it’s prescriptive rather than just factual.

    I certainly understand your rather solid point. My gut response is, there we go getting all professorial again – splitting hairs.

    Americans should should follow their dreams and goals. Americans should act in ways that lead to individual and community growth and strength.

    This community of faith has done all the planning, followed all the laws and codes; they have (in good faith) stated their desire to build the community center. So what’s wrong with stating “If that’s what they what to do, then they should do it”?

  80. 80.

    Svensker

    @morzer:

    Are you kidding me? I used to love Favre, but after he used my Jets like so much raggedy toilet paper, I’m not such a fan. In fact, I’d like to hit him in the snoot with big ol’ pie.

  81. 81.

    morzer

    @Svensker:

    I suspect that this may be one issue where a Dolphins fan and a Jets fan can find common ground. I felt incredible joy when I saw him throw that last interception against the Saints.

  82. 82.

    FlipYrWhig

    @Keith G:

    So what’s wrong with stating “If that’s what they what to do, then they should do it”?

    Well, that IMHO was the substance of the first statement by Obama. But it cries out for the follow-up, “Do you think it’s a good idea that they want to do what they want to do?” And that’s where we are, because he basically said, I have no opinion about that, because it’s none of my business; what I care about is rights, which are my business. But that has been taken for a back-pedal by a lot of people.

    This is kind of like the box the Republican presidential candidates got themselves into when dealing with confederate insignia on state flags. They couldn’t really say “I think it shouldn’t be on there,” because it’s not really any of their business; and they couldn’t really say “I think it should be on there,” because that’s blatant racism; so instead they all eventually said something like, “I support the people of RedState’s right to decide.” Situations like this boil down to talk about rights rather than talk about preferences.

    (I honestly don’t think a Muslim space is anywhere near as offensive as a confederate battle flag, but they’re both symbolic issues.)

  83. 83.

    asiangrrlMN

    @morzer: Damn you for being the bearer of bad news. I am not talking to you again.

    @FlipYrWhig: I’m with you on this one. It’s just not pertinent whether anyone thinks they should or should not build there. They have the legal right to build there, period. The president did not say it wasn’t wise for them to build there; he did not say it was. That is not in the scope of his presidency. I said this over at TNC. One of the president’s greatest strengths and flaws is that he speaks with nuance. It’s a strength because it shows he can think on different levels. It’s a flaw because our society in general, with generous helping from the press, does not do nuance.

    P.S. I don’t think it will be an election issue because our society also has the collective attention span of a gnat.

  84. 84.

    morzer

    @asiangrrlMN:

    I thought you would be ecstatic that Grandpa Greynuts had decided to nobly unretire for the fiftyseventh time for the good of the people.

  85. 85.

    FlipYrWhig

    @asiangrrlMN: There are _all kinds_ of issues that we’re accustomed to talking about this way, too.

    We don’t typically get all hung up on whether a Democratic political figure “supports abortion”; we want him or her to voice support for abortion _rights_. We want him or her to say, “I support a woman’s rights to choose what to do with her own body,” and we don’t much care whether that person thinks, deep down, that abortions themselves are good or bad. And we think it’s kind of a gotcha game when reporters say, “OK, but if it was _your_ daughter, would you want her to get an abortion?” We don’t expect the politician to say to that, “Yes, I would encourage her to get an abortion,” and we don’t consider it backpedaling when he or she doesn’t say that.

    Likewise, people who “support” same-sex marriage don’t take that to mean that when our gay friends are in serious relationships we should badger them about how they should really be thinking about getting married. We mean we support their _rights_ to marry, and the marrying part is actually up to them (in the few places where it’s permissible).

    Obama said he supported mosque-building rights. Cool! Does he “support” this mosque-that-isn’t-really-one? Who cares.

  86. 86.

    EIGRP

    There must be a multi-millionaire/billionaire who is offended by this. Why don’t they just offer the current owners of the property a crazy amount of money to move? It would be free enterprise at its best.

    If I was going to build something that offended some people and someone wanted to buy me out, I would take it.

    Eric (from Rochester, NY, and doesn’t care if its there or not – if they want to put it there, let them).

  87. 87.

    Nick

    @JGabriel:

    will never vote for you anyway! So why worry about them?

    not sure that’s true…if you’re in a tight race, a few thousand votes can make the difference and a few thousand undecides can be pursuaded to vote Republican based on this.

  88. 88.

    Nick

    @Mayur:

    An open question to the “sensible centrists” out there: Is there real evidence to the effect that the sort of cowardice demonstrated by Harry Reid or Jeff Greene gets enough votes to make it worthwhile? I’m asking this sincerely.

    judging from the responses I get out there on this debate…yes.

    Harry Reid and Jeff Greene are not expressing different opinions than most Democratic voters I know…in fact, their opinions might be too “liberal”

    I give them credit for not joking that muslims should commit mass suicide as one Democrat said to me

  89. 89.

    Nick

    @Keith G:

    This community of faith has done all the planning, followed all the laws and codes; they have (in good faith) stated their desire to build the community center. So what’s wrong with stating “If that’s what they what to do, then they should do it”?

    Nothing, but then you’re reinforcing an irrelevant debate, which is whether or not they should.

    One of our problems in America is that we take our rights for granted by having these “should” debates. SHOULD anti-war protesters rally in a certain plan? SHOULD protesters be allowed to burn the flag? SHOULD women have abortions? SHOULD terror suspects be given a civilian trial?

    By having the SHOULD conversation, we are reinforcing the idea that it’s an acceptable to say they shouldn’t, and that their rights can be infringed on if enough people think so.

  90. 90.

    asiangrrlMN

    @morzer: Not. Talking. To. You.

    @FlipYrWhig: This is true. Personally, I don’t care. I’ve had this argument before about supporting the rights v. supporting the morality of an issue or even racism. I don’t give a flip if someone likes me personally or approves of me getting an abortion or a same-sex marriage. I do give a flip if that person is willing to interfere with my right to do either of these activities. That’s why I am fine with the word tolerance rather than acceptance. I just want my rights–I don’t need approval.

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