Scott Payne has a really good interview with Aziz Poonawalla of Brass City over at The League. Here’s Aziz:
I think that the Muslim American community didn’t ask to be included in Park51′s project, but we have been dragged into it forcibly. In some ways it would be a relief if the issue went away. However, if they do decide to move, then I think that the message that will be sent is that bigotry and fear of Muslims is not just permitted, it is effective. This may result in short term relief for Muslim Americans, but surely longer term pain. To be honest I don’t know what I prefer in that regard.
It should be noted that if they did decide to move, then Republicans would claim victory, but would also be denied the issue’s urgency and impact in November. I suspect that a great many strategists are secretly ecstatic that Park51 is sticking to its guns. That’s another reason I personally am now ambivalent about the outcome. The main reason, however, is that I am not exactly pleased with Park51′s mishandling of the entire affair. Their PR has been incompetent (especially on Twitter) and the entire controversy might well have been avoided if they had shown a little restraint instead of trumpeting the proximity to Ground Zero at the outset. Also, the total absence of Feisal Rauf has a “Where’s Waldo” quality that is maddening in itself. I’m quite capable of defending Rauf against some of the accusations against him, but am not inclined to carry his water for him while he gallivants about the globe.
If the project is going to fail, maybe it is better it fail now than later. Certainly the Muslim American community will take a hit either way. If I sound cynical it’s only because I think that there’s a failure of leadership here and that has done as much damage to Muslim American aspirations as the most committed Islamophobes profiting from exploiting 9-11 passions.
The whole thing is worth a read.
I’m with Jonathan Bernstein on this – neither the GOP or the Democrats are going to come out on top from this huge nontroversy. The only losers will be American Muslims who, it appears, are bound to be losers regardless so long as the political elites continue to stoke the fires of this nativist charade.
Keith G
Not necessarily. If Park51 chooses to stick it out and goes about its business, this will all be dust in the wind before too long. As soon as the clicks per minute rate dies down on the Evil Mosque stories, a new news item will be found or manufactured.
Maybe a white, blond girl will be abducted or someone will see the Virgin Mother in a taco, but the eyeballs will move on.
Three years from now there will be a new community center ribbon cutting in downtown NYC, and that will be a win.
DougJ
The Kain-Bernstein-Friedersdorf law: both sides are always bad.
taylormattd
What have the democrats done wrong here? (I mean other than Harry Reid being a wimp, I guess.)
Is this just another “pox on both your houses” while ignoring the fact that republicans have turned into insane bigots?
arguingwithsignposts
That’s some high-level Broderism, there, Kain.
taylormattd
@DougJ: thank you.
cleek
i don’t know who’s going to come out “on top”, but “conservatives” are certainly wallowing in depths of moral putrescence which they haven’t ventured into in decades.
nevermind how many people agree with them, the fact that they’re doing this as an election tactic easily doubles the depravity. it’s absolutely fucking despicable.
the Dems aren’t exactly fighting each other to lead the charge for right, but at least they’re (mostly) not actively cheering the bigots. a few tempered statements to the basic idea of Freedom Of Religion beats crass demagoguery any day of the week.
there’s no doubt about who occupies the moral high ground here.
(and now i’ve used up all my big words.)
Anton Sirius
Umm, pardon my French, but bullshit. I checked out of the excerpt at “the entire controversy might well have been avoided”, and really have no desire to read the whole thing.
The Cordoba Initiative bears exactly zero responsibility for this ginned-up, virulently anti-American campaign of bigotry.
I’m not playing the “both sides have flaws” game here. Not on this one. To quote Patrick Stewart, the line must be drawn here. We’re right, they’re wrong, and as far as I’m concerned the Pam Gellers of the world can all drown in their own hate-flavored spittle.
TuiMel
@DougJ:
Yes. Although there have been some less than admirable comments on the Democratic side, the Republicans are the ones bringing the sh!t storm. The overall positions are not the same. Not even close; so can we be spared the statements of false equivalence? The Republican party gives aid and comfort to the nativists.
Joshua Norton
The mosque is a mockery to the 17 nearby shops where women can get their lady parts fluffed. As well as the sacred ground that holds the New York Dolls Gentleman’s Club.
NEVER FORGET!
schrodinger's cat
@DougJ: Agreed. This, on the one hand, on the on the other hand nonsense is infuriating. Both sides don’t always deserve equal blame. What the Republicans are doing is far worse.
Davebo
Fixed.
EmmEllPee
You say that the only losers will be American Muslims. Sorry to sound so prudish and trite, but don’t we all lose from this situation? The rabid right gets another victory over freedom and the constitution, and the Dems once again prove incapable of articulating a coherent system of beliefs. And we’re all granted first-row seats to the great American march into irrelevance.
Steve
The WaPo had an op-ed last week from a Muslim who opposes the mosque. While I’m sure they scored lots of contrarian points for printing that, the 99% of Muslims who think they should have the same right to worship as everyone else must be feeling pretty voiceless about now.
HumboldtBlue
I just wish we could be this effective in marginalizing all the crackpot religionists and their silly sky-daddy fantasies. Whether they be orthodox Jews in Brooklyn and their irrational fears about women’s bodies … whitebread christianists and their irrational fear about women’s bodies and the ever-present threat that some random gay man will throat-rape them and they’ll secretly like it or batshit insane Muslims who consider women their property to be disposed of if “shame” is brought on the family.
Fuck them all, let their non-existent deities sort them out.
Keith G
So, I went back and clicked the links.
E.D., Mr. Poonawalla seems to not share your “both sides” view.
http://blog.beliefnet.com/cityofbrass/2010/08/the-politics-of-mosques.html
Violet
@DougJ:
Both sides are bad. One side is worse than the other.
Svensker
@Keith G:
No, no, no. I’ve heard from VERY RELIABLE sources (my wingnut relatives) that the ribbon cutting will be on 9/11/11 — just to rub the jihadist victory in our faces! ! !
demo woman
If Ground Zero is hallowed ground why are buildings rising as I type. Earlier someone on this site mentioned that peaceful loving corporations should refudiate this and move. Japanese can not have businesses at Pearl Harbor because it is a national park. Shouldn’t all hallowed ground be national parks.
As far as the adult sites a few blocks away I have no comment cuz after all this a free country.
Now I have to apologize to our resident libertarian but the dems could capitalize on this issue if they took my advice.
stuckinred
@Joshua Norton: Does getting their lady parts fluffed mean what it used to mean?
Jay B.
More horseshit. Of course it’s the victim’s fault! They had an incompetent tweet! The tsunami of bullshit coming out from every quarter of the media, but especially from the Murdoch Empire, to say nothing of the endless depravity of current and former Republican leaders would have simply been a non-starter had they been better on Twitter. It’s self-delusional to think “restraint” (or rather more, since they were hardly screaming it) would have kept Palin or Gingrich from screeching.
Avoided. Every single Republican is a total chump and a liar to boot. All of them.
EDIT: I followed Keith G’s link from up above. I apologize. Aziz sounds exactly right in that post, I had assumed, because of the excerpt from the other article that he was somehow affiliated with Kain’s “sensible” Republican concern. I think he’s still epically wrong for blaming Park51’s tweet for setting off this mess or that it would have been avoided with restraint, but I’m clearly mistaken about the writer. I wonder what Kain’s agenda is here.
Omnes Omnibus
@Svensker: It will be at 9:11am and there will be nine imams and eleven mullahs.
ChrisWWW
Appeasing the bigots (Republicans + spineless Dems like Reid) is a non option no matter the political consequences. I, for one, am not willing to be on the wrong side of history in this case and neither should other liberals.
tomvox1
You do sound cynical, Aziz…and not a little full of shit.
schrodinger's cat
@arguingwithsignposts: I think he would make a good replacement for Broder when he retires.
Svensker
The rest of us won’t lose when a part of our own population is demonized? Seems like we’re already losing, hard.
Hal
Because the Dems as a whole aren’t attempting a mission accomplished on the asses of Muslims, therefor, they can count on losing some votes from folks who think Bin Laden himself will be at the ribbon cutting ceremony.
Very much reminds me of “Sarah Palin says the new HCR law has death panels, Dems disagree” slant the media put on that debate, instead of just calling Palin out as a liar.
demo woman
@Svensker: Send back a note and say all hallowed ground should be set aside as national parks where we can sit and reflect upon our hatred.
Omnes Omnibus
@Jay B.:
Another aspect of this is the absurd expectation that a community center/church/mosque/individual would have the capabilities of matching up with the big guns from the right wing and the media. The RW and the media do this for a living.
lamh32
@taylormattd:
Other than two Congressmen up for election, who other than President Obama in the Dem party has come out on the side of President Obama?
Answer: none.
Even with all the talk of Obama’s “walkback”, which IMHO wasn’t really a walkback, Obama is essentially standing alone in his own party among elected officials.
Frank
@taylormattd:
Jeff Greene, a Democratic senate candidate in Florida came out strongly against it. I am not aware of any Democratic Congress person in NY who have stood up and defended the community center. Being silent and afraid to speak out is no defense. History has certainly shown us this.
Harry Reid’s pathetic display yesterday reminds me of Dick Gephardt standing by George W Bush in the Rose Garden back in 2002 defending the war on Iraq.
The author is right. Neither party is looking good on this. Yes, the Dems don’t look as bad as the GOP. So fricking what! Anybody would look better than the GOP on this issue. They are a fricking lynch mob with their hate for crying out loud.
That's Master of Accountancy to You, Pal (JMN)
Holy fucking mother of fucking god, can no one who reads this blog actually READ? Once again, DougJ, you got there first with the worst:
He didn’t say both sides are bad. Let’s check in with what he actually DID say:
Wow. He didn’t say what you claim he did. In fact, you just completely made it up. That has nothing to do with which sides are bad or wrong, it is about which sides will WIN. Instead of taking the very clear meaning, at least four people who have commented have decided to make something up for E.D. to have said, because it fits their narrative better than the truth.
DougJ, you just lied. I’m also calling out: arguingwithsignposts; taylormattd; TuiMel; schrodingerscat; KeityhG, and Violet. Apparently unhappy with the real E.D., they have chosen to create their own fictional version to argue against.
Omnes Omnibus
@That’s Master of Accountancy to You, Pal (JMN): Nice of you to go straight to an accusation of lying. Different interpretation of the comment, misinterpreting the comment, etc., weren’t a possibility?
taylormattd
@Frank: that’s kind of bullshit. The republicans are ginning up an full-on insane rampage, calling it a “terror mosque”; a “9-11 mosque”; and flat out claiming islam=terrorism, and this is somehow equivalent to a handleful of democrats being pussies? Ridiculous.
demo woman
@That’s Master of Accountancy to You, Pal (JMN): John, Are you defending E.D. again. He is an adult and can take care of himself.
morzer
Eight voices in your head, That’s Master of Accountancy to You, Pal (JMN)? Bit early for it, isn’t it? Some of us haven’t even glanced at the vodka yet.
Keith G
@That’s Master of Accountancy to You, Pal (JMN):
Okay buddy:
Nope. The phrase that pays was:
Aziz Poonawalla seems to feel (in the link I gave) that the GOP are the bad guys. This is their *strategic choice*.
Are you with me?
The two parties are not showing similar intent or similar manifestation. Therefore, the formulation that they are both at the same level is not correct on its surface.
Edit: But I am not defending the Dem response. It is weak and not unified.
Svensker
This whole thing has just sickened me. I really thought…I don’t know what I thought. We couldn’t go any lower than torture and attacking countries that hadn’t attacked us?
Do I want to live in a country were Pam Geller calls the shots? Pam Fucking Geller.
Weimar America, only stupider.
Frank
@taylormattd:
Please re-read what I wrote. If you think being a coward should be saluted, then that’s your prerogative. Personally, I will criticize bad behavior wherever it happens.
I have criticized the GOP on this issue. Please read for yourself. But when the Dems won’t stand up and defend the community center/mosque, I be damned if I’m going to support the Democrats in this issue. I don’t care if it is outright bigotry or just being a chicken on the Dem’s part. Wrong is wrong. Not speaking out is wrong.
Especially on an issue such as this, where the majority of our people is behaving like a lynch mob.
Kryptik
@Frank:
Jerry Nadler has been the lone congressional voice representing NY to come out in favor of it. Nearly every single NY rep. to make a statement on it has opposed it.
To wit, that area of Manhattan is represented BY Congressman Nadler. Funny how that works, that the people with the most proximity to the proposed location stand up for it, while jackasses out on the edges quail and/or scream opposed to it.
Joel
Politically, I think you’re right. In areas where there’s hay to be made with nativist bigotry, Democratic candidates are going to be dragged in, because taking principled stands doesn’t seem to win elections. Another reminder that we’re really discussing the lesser of two evils on many issues.
DougJ
@That’s Master of Accountancy to You, Pal (JMN):
You are out of your mind. Remind me not to read your comments anymore.
TuiMel
@That’s Master of Accountancy to You, Pal (JMN):
OK. So what is the point of that comment, if not to throw a coat of equivalence on things? And who is really trying to “come out on top”? Republicans have ginned up and pushed this issue (i.e., stoking the nativist charade), and Democrats have to some extent responded. I have no dog in the good E.D. / bad E.D. discussion. As a rule, I do not have time to read his long posts. He is not the only one who works during prime posting time. At the least, his formulation seems LAZY. And, come to think of it, the last post of his that I had time to read had elements that also seemed lazy. That said, I do not care if he posts here or not. If he did not mean to communicate “equivalence,” through the “both sides bad” implication, he should merely have said what he meant.
beltane
@Svensker: Germany went through way more economic trauma than we have before they put the Nazis into power. We Americans seem overly eager to surrender our humanity in this instance.
lamh32
Oh Good Lord!
What does it say about Newt Gingrich’s completely bigoted statement that the “mosque” developers are like the Nazi’s, when even Pat BucKKKanan says you’ve gone too far.
To be clear, BucKKKanan is still as bigoted as ever. I patiently await his next “black people sticking it to whitey” blog post, still, a broken clock is right at least twice a day!
Gingrich went too far, says Buchanan
Violet
@That’s Master of Accountancy to You, Pal (JMN):
Why the hell are you calling me out? I think both parties suck. I happen to think that one party is completely batshit crazy, but that doesn’t mean the other party is great. I don’t care which pundit “axis” that belief belongs to. Hell, you can call it the Violet Theorem if you want.
DougJ commented that both parties were bad, I made my point that one was worse than the other. I’ll stand by that, no matter what Kain or anyone else says.
DougJ
@TuiMel:
@Violet:
Don’t bother. It’s funny to see him doing this after last week he repeatedly accused me of saying things I never said, then disappeared when I asked him to show where I had said any of these things.
Now he’s got his panties in a twist over thinking that we’re putting words in Kain’s mouth.
What a twit.
handy
I’m not sure Kain’s comment is manifestly high Broderism. It is true that some Dems have chosen to be on the wrong side of this (the Senate majority leader himself among them), but that’s not even the point the link in the original post is making, which comes down more to the “this is a non-issue, nothing to see here move along.”
Of course that ignores what the rabble-rousing dynamic at play by the Repubs for their base on this. But that doesn’t make it wrong in the larger sense either.
Frank
@Kryptik:
Yup, it is rather sad. Arcuri, a Dem, came out against it while Hanna, his GOP opponent, was for it (although he now appears to have flip-flopped).
Kryptik
@Frank:
And Arcuri then blasted Hanna for flipflopping, while boasting of his stance, as if only he, Arcuri, took the really brave stance and stood by it.
Assholes, the both of them.
Frank
@Kryptik:
To make it worse, Arcuri claimed that his stand came from his time as D.A. and his belief in victim’s rights. According to him it would be insensitive to the victims to put up a mosque at that location. Maybe somebody should tell him that Islam (at least if we are to believe George W Bush) didn’t attack us on 911.
Mnemosyne
In case anyone wondered, yes, this has now become all about Republican fee-fees:
GOP calls Obama insensitive over stand on mosque
WATBs, the lot of them.
Violet
@DougJ:
I think I need that pie filter.
lamh32
Dems could learn a thing or two from Sen Sherrod Brown (D-OH) on how we should be responding to questions about Cardoba House!!
Brown turns the mosque “issue” against GOP
by Jed Lewison
Linda Featheringill
Aziz Poonawalla quotes Josh Barro as saying, “Islam has 1.2 billion adherents and is not going away.”
That has got to be one of the more important points of the day.
If you have children or grandchildren or hope to have them and even just think that you might like to have them some day, maybe you should get off of your whatever and try to welcome peaceful Muslims into the greater American society.
I think we should be pressuring our congresscritters etc. about supporting the religious rights of others. Have you contacted your elected officials to tell them that you agree with Obama and they should not be afraid to agree with the President?
No? Why not?
Violet
@Linda Featheringill:
This is a good point. In fact I think it may deserve a Balloon-Juice front page activism post. Where’s TimF?
And I think I’ll phone my congresscritter tomorrow to express my support.
Linda Featheringill
@lamh32:
Senator Sherrod Brown: Yup. From Ohio. He was one of the people I have contacted in support of Obama’s statement. Don’t know if my voice carried a whole lot of weight, but apparently it didn’t hurt.
[Good for Sen. Brown.]
Linda Featheringill
@Violet: Thank you. I think this might be important.
kay
I’m sick of that.
People can and should be able to go about their business without planning and executing flawless PR campaigns, defensively, to ward off the hordes of cynical conservatives who are looking for a wedge issue in an election year.
We shouldn’t have to live on defense. Everything isn’t a political campaign.
I have a better idea. Why don’t conservative activists mind their own business? Then we can all get on with our lives without selling, selling, selling all the time.
DougJ
@Violet:
What annoys me is that I think he’s just trying to piss me off…and I keep taking the bait!
DougJ
@handy:
Fair enough.
kay
Who’s next? Who’s the next target? It’s not limited to political figures, or even public figures, we know that from ACORN and the FDA official.
We all know there will be another ginned up fake controversy next week, or in the next two weeks.
Should that group or individual, that future target, be running a defensive PR campaign right now, before conservative activists get wind of anything they might be doing or saying?
Maybe FOX could give us a head’s up, so that person or group can “get out in front” of the news cycle, and hire a “team”.
Just disgusting.
Violet
@DougJ:
Ah, well, unless you’ve got a pie filter, you’re going to have to remember to ignore him. I don’t like those hit-and-run comments. Very annoying.
DougJ
@Violet:
That was one thing I tried not to do when I trolled, was just pop and up and say something incendiary and leave. It’s bad manners.
Chuck Butcher
I suppose it is blogwhoring but since I took the effort to write it : Islamic Center
Go ahead and comment if you care to – I can take it…
kay
@lamh32:
“oh, I think it’s a local decision” means “it’s none of my business”.
He’s right, too! How hard is that? People could build things without PR campaigns, get married to whomever they want, it opens up all kinds of possibilities.
matoko_chan
Kain you ignorant slut.
You know who won…..Osama!
Your base cannot disinguish between al-Islam and al-Qaeda.
BinLaden has outsmarted America. Pretty good for a cave dwelling shariah following stateless muzzie up against the SuperAwesome Last of teh SuperPowers, eh?
He has already won….and we have already failed. The Park51 controversy shows clearly that the american public does not understand the difference between al-Islam and al-Qaeda.
2 trillion dollars and 6 thousand soldier lives later, are we ready to acknowledge that Bin Laden won?
Even that WEC retard Bush understood that a war on al-Islam is unwinnable….the reason is simple scale demographics. There are 1.8 billion muslims in the world and more than half are under 30—-Islam is a young growing faith.
How many Americans are there? 300 million? Better yet, how many christian americans and what is their median age ?
That means we all lose, dumbass.
Your low IQ xenophobic christofascist base just handed OBL a great victory.
why does Palin hate the troops?
What about our poor soldiers in Afghanistan saving muslimah noses and building schools for girls?
Don’t people like Palin…. realize that she just stabbed our military in the back by validating everything the Taliban says?
America is at war with Islam.
Tell your sons and daughters.
kay
@Chuck Butcher:
It’s good. I like “unmolested” as a word.
I think you showed a lot of restraint.
Do you really have a low opinion of the GOP? :)
Whatever for?
Omnes Omnibus
@kay: I have a press and PR team on stand-by just in case I am next.
Mojotron
I could swear Rauf was out doing PR work many months ago, even appearing on Dr. Laura’s show at which time she had no objections to the mosque and said something like “I can’t see why anyone would have a problem with it” but can’t find it; am I making this up?
edit: ahhh, found it- http://www.salon.com/news/ground_zero_mosque/index.html?story=/politics/war_room/2010/08/16/ground_zero_mosque_origins
it was his wife who was on Dr. Laura. Still shows that the whole thing is nonsense
kay
@Omnes Omnibus:
Well, good. You’ll need a strategy, especially on Twitter. Your personal brand could thrive or die on Twitter, or so I have heard.
You have to aggressively market your religion now, defensively, which naive fool that I am, I did not know.
I think this particular recurring piece of conventional wisdom springs from conservative market-worship. Everything’s for sale, and everything’s a “brand”. It doesn’t matter what the thing actually is, what matters is how cleverly it’s packaged.
demo woman
Violet and Doug.. It has to be John. Don’t take the bait. Look at my comment @ 33. If I were to post a comment with a new name, I’d be moderation hell.
Omnes Omnibus
@kay: Yeah, well, I should maybe get me a twitter account.
kay
@Omnes Omnibus:
I went skiing after the 2008 election, and the weather was bad and I don’t really like to ski anyway, so instead we discussed all the damaging things that would come out if we were political candidates, and how inept we would be at defending on them.
It was 7 ordinary people, and it was a long list. Scandalous.
Omnes Omnibus
@kay: I wouldn’t even want to contemplate. I had a top secret security clearance and have been admitted into state bars, so I can’t be too out there. There is no way I want my life subjected to politician level scrutiny.
Violet
@demo woman:
But that JMW guy has posted here before with that name. Post once and you won’t be in mod hell after that. That doesn’t mean it’s not John. But it doesn’t rule out that it’s someone else.
Makewi
The conservatives have already won this issue. You can pretend that they haven’t if it helps you to feel superior and to pretend that this is just an issue of bigotry if you want, but that will hardly help you to be one of the actual leading lights of the new young rising stars. It just makes you a shallow knee jerk thinker.
That's Master of Accountancy to You, Pal (JMN)
I was headed out to dinner. I’m back. You people are still full of shit. Read that again. It has NOTHING AT ALL to do with who is right and who is wrong. It is a statement that E.D. doesn’t think that either side is going to gain a political advantage out of this. That’s it. There’s no attempt to make an equivalency of value there.
It isn’t even that complicated a sentence. The meaning is perfectly clear, and you all botched it. Apparently, you have already decided what he is going to say, and you see what you expected. The phrase “come out on top” is about outcomes, not inputs. That’s why it has the word “out” in it.
Triassic Sands
Subtract the nativist vote from the GOP and you’re left with:
President McGovern
President Carter (two terms)
President Mondale
and
President Gore
The Republicans would be just another fringe party without the racists, nativists, and xenophobes.
kay
@Omnes Omnibus:
Well, it wasn’t felonies, so most of would have made it past a state bar ethics panel.
I think we’d need crack PR teams, however, if we wanted to, oh, be an FDA manager, or build a mosque, or work for ACORN, something big and high profile like that.
kay
@Makewi:
An admission! Finally.
Okay. You won. So, tell us. What did conservatives win?
morzer
@Makewi:
Well, if anyone is an expert on shallow, knee-jerk thinking… Oddly enough, I always assumed you were jerking something else.
That's Master of Accountancy to You, Pal (JMN)
@DougJ:
I did no such thing. You very explicitly accused eemom of condoning mass murder because she thought that was better than being mean to anyone in the media. I posted your quote in which you explicitly said that.
She did no such thing. She disagrees with you as to what Jeffrey Goldberg wrote. As it happens, I think your interpretation is more likely to be correct, but Goldberg does make it legitimately difficult on the bomb Iran question to figure out what his exact point is.
However, all she did was disagree with your interpretation. Apparently, for you, that’s no longer good enough. Someone disagreeing with your interpretation obviously means that they actually think something sinister.
This is of a pattern with you over the last 4-6 weeks. You seem to have lost your mind. You weren’t always like this, and I have no idea what happened, but the new you is an ugly thing.
DougJ
@demo woman:
It’s the guy who used to be J Michael Neal or something like that. He used to chime in a lot when he knew what he was talking about (stuff about finance) and was incendiary, now he just pops up to be a troll.
Anyway, he’s out of work as I remember, so I’m going to keep engaging him and mostly pull my punches.
Steve
@That’s Master of Accountancy to You, Pal (JMN): The implication is that the Democrats are trying to “come out on top,” when in reality the pro-mosque Democrats are simply doing the right thing and getting hammered for it. Unless your district includes Dearborn, no one backs the mosque because they hope to “come out on top.” It’s the same BS Chris Christie spewed when he said Obama is playing politics with the issue just like the GOP.
DougJ
@That’s Master of Accountancy to You, Pal (JMN):
Well, you’re wrong. You said I used obscenity with her, and I didn’t, for example. Also too, she went off first. Your description is completely inaccurate.
Anyway, good luck with the job search.
That's Master of Accountancy to You, Pal (JMN)
@Steve:
Right, which means they won’t come out on top. He never implies that they are trying to, other than in the sense that electoral politics is zero sum, and if you aren’t always trying to come out on top, you’re being dumb.
Again, you are reading way more into it than is there. You just said exactly the same thing that Erik did, with regards to the Democrats. You seem to disagree with him about the Republicans not coming out on top. We’ll have to wait and see.
That's Master of Accountancy to You, Pal (JMN)
@DougJ:
I was wrong, but that was also long after you started making stupid replies to what I said. And, technically, I didn’t say that you used an obscenity with her, though I did imply it by saying, “Hell, get into obscenity laced arguments with eemom all you want; I’m not with you, but don’t care that much.” And, frankly, I still don’t care very much, so the tiny little bit that you are saying I was wrong about was very explicitly not what I was complaining about. That came in the very next sentence, “It’s when you accuse someone of being complicit in mass murder, as you did, based upon such thin (well, non-existent, really) evidence, and I’m going to tell you that you need to shut the fuck up.”
THAT’S the part I objected to. You took her disagreement about what Goldberg said and turned it into an accusation of callousness on a monstrous scale. That came when you said, “Because that’s the important thing, right, not another million dead people in the Middle East?”
Would you like to comment on the things I actually objected to, rather than focusing on trivialities? Would you like to address the fact that, in this thread, you grossly misrepresented what Erik said in the post?
Mike Lamb
@Makewi:
You keep stating that there is some type of non-bigoted basis for opposing the project, yet there is quite literally not one piece of evidence that supports your claim. Why do you insist on wasting everyone’s time? I know you are posting anonymously, but aren’t you in the least bit embarrassed to announce your bigotry in such an open fashion?
DougJ
@That’s Master of Accountancy to You, Pal (JMN):
How am I supposed to respond to you when you say things like that?
That's Master of Accountancy to You, Pal (JMN)
@DougJ:
I don’t know. Maybe you could address the things that I said were problems with what you wrote rather than avoiding the subject. Again, you are running down a path of things that I very explicitly stated were NOT what I was objecting to.
Edit: Getting your fee-fees bent out of shape because I accused you of using an obscenity, at this blog of all places, while avoiding the subject that you accused someone of being fine with mass murder doesn’t come off very well.
DougJ
@That’s Master of Accountancy to You, Pal (JMN):
I think that what I said to her was completely fair about the “million dead Persians”.
Let’s walk through this: Jeff Goldberg writes a piece that I believe is agitating for war with Iran. She is horrified that I am being unfair to Goldberg, saying (1) that Goldberg’s piece is accurate and (2) that the US/Israel will never bomb Iran. Now, these cannot both be true because his piece says it’s 50-50 we will bomb Iran. Okay, fine, but if she believes Goldberg’s piece is accurate then she thinks we really bomb Iran and when she whines that I am being unfair, she is saying, essentially, that I focus too much on the potential casualties of war and not enough on Jeff Goldberg’s feelings.
I’m only arguing with you (or her) because a week ago someone said we didn’t really engage commenters here when they disagree.
DougJ
@That’s Master of Accountancy to You, Pal (JMN):
It’s not about my fee-fees, it’s about you lying.
Anyway, come clean on this or I really will have to just ignore you from now on, despite what I said about my patience with the out of work.
kay
@That’s Master of Accountancy to You, Pal (JMN):
He also says the “political elites” stoked this charade, because we hate those, you know, politicians and their elitism.
Actually, that isn’t what happened. A single conservative blogger and then several conservative news outlets stoked this charade. The “political elites” (by that I guess he means GOP House members and Senators and Presidential contenders) then (predictably, because we’ve seen this tactic before, two weeks ago, in fact ) amplified the charade.
That’s what happened. In real life. Despite fact-dismissive punditry that might lead you to believe otherwise.
Steve
@That’s Master of Accountancy to You, Pal (JMN): We disagree about the implication of his statement. That doesn’t mean you should go off about how everyone who reads it differently is a dirty liar.
I strongly disagree with you that anyone who isn’t constantly focused on electoral advantage is dumb, by the way. If you’re not going to ever do the right thing unless it brings you political benefit, what’s the point of even going into politics. Some values you just have to stand up for.
That's Master of Accountancy to You, Pal (JMN)
@kay:
How is that not stoking the controversy? “Stoking” means to add fuel to a fire. How did you not just say exactly the same thing Erik did?
So, it is EXACTLY what happened.
Nick
@Frank:
Jerry Nadler, but for the most part the others actually do not think it should be there, but won’t embarrass the President.
That's Master of Accountancy to You, Pal (JMN)
@Steve:
Ideally, you do both, but if you aren’t constantly paying attention to what works to your advantage, you’re being stupid.
Besides, I think that it’s pretty clear that most of the Democrats have done exactly what they stand accused of: thinking about how to come out on top. Obama himself is one of the few exceptions on this. You’re going to have a hard time convincing me that Harry Reid took a stand on principle. Given that that’s been the general consensus around here, I’m not even sure why you’re objecting to what was said. The Democrats sure as hell haven’t covered themselves in glory on this one.
That's Master of Accountancy to You, Pal (JMN)
@DougJ:
You’ve missed the most important distinction, which is that she didn’t think that Goldberg said the same thing that you did. She started from the premise that he is sincere in saying that he’s not in favor of bombing Iran. As I said, I suspect that you are right on this, but that’s a good faith interpretation, if wrong, of the article. It simply takes Goldberg at his word.
The two things you list here are irrelevant to the specific charge. The only way your charge as to what she thinks is the bigger crime makes sense is if her claim that she takes Goldberg at his word is not a good faith interpretation. Even if I accept that you are correct that that was what she said, and I’m coming to the conclusion that that’s not necessarily a good way to bet, it doesn’t justify the accusation that you made.
No. Absolutely, positively, no. When she says that you are being unfair, she is saying that you are wrong as to what Goldberg actually said. Given that assumption, there is no connection between her feelings about unfairness to Goldberg and her feelings about dead Iranians. It is only because you have implicitly assumed that she is lying as to what she thinks Goldberg said that this charge can go forward.
And unlike what Erik said above, Goldberg really is difficult to interpret. One of the reasons I think that you are probably correct as to what it is that he is up to is that I don’t trust people who go to such lengths to make it unclear what their position is. If you wanted to accuse eemom of being naive as to who Goldberg is and what he does, I’d be fine with it, but that’s not what you did. You leaped straight to the accusation of not caring about mass murder.
Chuck Butcher
Judas priest, anybody who thinks standing up for religious freedom is going to get a politician a big boost from Muslims must be missing the part where they amount to 0.8% of the US population? What political advantage is there in that? Tossing in the “other” religious concerned with religious freedom and the political equation is still real doubtful – witness the waffling of those who really ought to be swinging hard.
Any time you try to make a political calculation you’re likely to come up with something unattractive and as little a fan of EDK as I am that is what I saw here.
E.D. Kain
@DougJ: Not at all. The Republicans are by far the Big Villains in this. But the Democrats can never capitalize on anything. The Republicans do something awful and bigoted and the Dems barely have the spine to stand up to them. They could be winners, but I don’t think they will be.
I very clearly believe that the GOP is wrong here and that the Dems are right. I just don’t think that will translate into a win.
E.D. Kain
@That’s Master of Accountancy to You, Pal (JMN): Thanks, man. I think I’ve pretty clearly come out in favor of religious liberty, against this bullshit the GOP is pulling, and well, I still think the Dems will screw it up. I’m not practicing wishy washy Broderism here. I’m stating a fact of life for Democrats. They always screw up their opportunities.
Nick
@E.D. Kain:
I just don’t see how they can possibly be winners. 70% of the public is siding with the Republicans before the debate even started.
DougJ
@E.D. Kain:
I suspected that. My criticism was stylistic — it’s so easy to write “political elites did blah”, “neither side is right” but it’s a bad habit, one that is endearing to the Jon Chaits and Andrew Sullivans of the world, but (I suspect) aggravating to most readers.
DougJ
@That’s Master of Accountancy to You, Pal (JMN):
I honestly cannot understand what you are saying anymore. But you’re putting in time to write it and it may be in good faith, so I’ll just agree to disagree.
But don’t accuse me of saying things I didn’t say, anymore, okay?
Sandmann
@Chuck Butcher:
I’d bet Mitt Romney could tell a tale or two about what it’s like to be on the wrong side of the U.S. religious equation.
Kryptik
@Nick:
But that’s only because the GOP was allowed to work the refs for at least 2 months before there was even a ‘debate’ to be had.
roshan
Park51 Developer refuses to move the location of the center
What I like about this is there is nothing, legally, the right can do to stop him. They can cry, rend their clothes in public, chant USA! USA!, but there is absolutely nothing legally that can be done to stop this project. The guy is standing up against bigotry and hatred of minorities and has got some brass balls. I don’t know how many people have threatened him, but from the looks of his interview, he won’t budge. Three cheers to him, DON”T back down, this is throw down time, you’re where the constitution is, so please don’t back down.
Steve
@E.D. Kain: What is the Democrats’ “opportunity” here? Is it your belief that if they just took a strong stand, they’d automatically gain politically because everyone would respect their conviction, no matter how many people disagree with them on the merits?
roshan
Experts: Argue All You Want, Mosque Project on Firm Legal Ground
Suffern ACE
@roshan: Unfortunately, that legal standing will come with little solace if the organization is stuck in lawsuits. It also doesn’t prevent certain parties from announcing to voters that there is a “solution”, even if that solution is bogus. Good lord. There is one GOP candidate for governor claiming that he is going to appoint people to the public services commission specifically for the purposes of pressuring Con Edison (who owns 1/2 the building) to break its lease and not sell and another who has stated that he is going to use eminent domain (my guess is to condemn the building) to stop construction. The longer the building sits vacant, of course, the more building code violations will appear.
So, we have a state government that is unable to pass a budget here, unable to cut pet projects, unable to figure out how to get out its mess, and the best we can do is put forward governor candidates who worry whether or not Muslims can ever assemble peacefully.
roshan
@Suffern ACE:
Let the bigots and hate mongers take their best shot, let them do what they think is right (however bigoted and unconstitutional it might be); the only ones who are going to come out of this fire of hate, unhurt and justified, are the Muslims. The minorities are going to face repercussions in everyday life, but backing down in face of fundamentalists shouldn’t be an option for them. We and all the secular members of this American society cannot back down, even from unending lawsuits, it matters and I hope the Park51 developers understand this and fight to the end, the end being what is lawfully allowed to everyone under the 1st amendment.
Cacti
Way late to the party on this one, but let’s just nip the “both sides are to blame” shit right in the bud.
The muslim-baiting and religious bigotry for cheap political points, originated with, and has been fomented entirely by the right.
Same with the Mexican-baiting.
Same with the gay-baiting.
Step up and own it Kain. Stunts like the ginned-up Cordoba House controversy have been the modus operandi of the right wing for almost 50 years now.
kay
@That’s Master of Accountancy to You, Pal (JMN):
Oh, baloney. It’s a way to “come out strongly” against this without naming anyone or saying anything or offending conservatives. It’s pure fact-free punditry. He’s protecting the Party line.
It was a poor PR strategy, or maybe it was Dem “fumbling”, or maybe it was mysterious and nameless “political elites”.
Anything but what it actually was.
An orchestrated campaign by individual conservatives in media and government to target a minority religion and an individual imam.
That’s what happened. Anything else happened as a result of the original act.
markpkessinger
Although people seeking to exploit this controversy for political gain would have you believe that the proposed Islamic Cultural Center will tower triumphantly over Ground Zero, I’ve just posted to YouTube an annotated slide show of a walk around the block from 45 Park Place, the site of the proposed center. It will give viewers a sense of the reality of the location, and show just how out-of-the-way the site is relative to the World Trade Center. My hope is to inject a measure of rationality into a discussion that has generated far more heat than light. The link to the video is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6cpEAvvYB4 .
matoko_chan
Aziz totally sounds like a maftoon in this post.
but he is like that sometimes.
Nick
@Kryptik:
and who allowed it? The media. The media and the Republicans are in cohoots. They always work together to give the GOP a leg up in the debate. If Democrats try to preempt a controversy, they get accused of creating it.
plus, it doesn’t take a genius to realize that most Americans would oppose something they’re told is a “Ground Zero Mosque,” that’s why the New York Post did it.
The Democrats had no choice but to walk into the fire.
kay
@That’s Master of Accountancy to You, Pal (JMN):
Constructions like this post always remind me of former Secretary Rice: “mistakes were made”.
Condi didn’t play the blame game. She didn’t point fingers.
She also didn’t play the accountability or take responsibility game.
Frank
@Cacti:
No doubt about it. It, as always, originate from the far right. But what did the Dems do in response? Harry Reid, our #2 guy, agreed! All except for one of the NY Dems in congress agreed!
It has been an utter embarrassment to watch BOTH parties on this issue. They are both trying to go for the bigot vote. Count me the hell out.
schridinger's cat
deleted
schrodinger's cat
@That’s Master of Accountancy to You, Pal (JMN):
EDK wrote:
Who are these elites that he speaks off. Republicans and Democrats? Sounds to me like he is apportioning the blame equally.
Yes some Democrats have been spineless on this issue but GOP has been out in the forefront ignite hatred against minorities, this time muslims, just last week it was immigrants, next week it will be someone else.
Since EDK can’t respond to our comments has he appointed you to be his advocate? I must have missed that post. Just because I see things differently than you there is no need to call me a liar.
E.D. Kain
@Nick: Well maybe someone needs to forcefully and honestly argue the other side and try to sway Americans down from that 70% number.
E.D. Kain
@Cacti: That’s nonsense. I’ve never once said that both sides are to blame.
schrodinger's cat
@E.D. Kain: You may have never said it in so many words, but you have certainly implied it, in this and many other posts.