Adding on to the Pauline Kael post last night, I’m honestly baffled by the entire “mosque at ground zero” nonsense. I find it completely insane. Aside from the fact that it is actually a community center in Manhattan and not a mosque at ground zero, I simply don’t understand why anyone outside of that three-four block radius of NYC gives two hoots in hell. Even if they were actually building a mosque at ground zero, and it was funded by Al Qaeda radicals and not some moderate group, I can’t think of one way in which it would have an impact on my life. Hell, if anything, it would make it easy for the FBI to keep track of Al Qaeda, because the Fox News camera live broadcasting 24/7 would have everyone on tape.
*** Update ***
This is most excellent.
cleek
really ?
i’ll give you a hint: it rhymes with “erection year”
stuckinred
More insane than “death panels”? It’s the same shit, this country is running on fear and it suits the republicans just fine.
Pengie
@cleek: erection…beer? Excuse me, I believe I have an appointment with the patent office.
mr. whipple
It’s The Ground Zero Mosque! It’s The Ground Zero Mosque!
Xero
“They Used to Hate Us For Freedom”
They still do. They will still probably take a few seats in the House, though.
Wait, you’re talking about… Nevermind.
Poopyman
Some people need a target for their hate, and sometimes it’s helpful to them for someone to point out a shiny new target.
It’s not a bad thing that you’re baffled by this. I wish more people were.
Crashman
they gonna try to make us all muslins jon!
PeakVT
It is insane, but since the Republicans don’t have any policy proposals that haven’t failed miserably already, they have to gin up something for fools to hate. They’ve managed to rile me up, too, though I’m focusing my hate on the media which reports on this “controversy”.
Peter
From what I’ve heard, people inside that four-block radius don’t give any hoots in hell either.
But of course, liberal east-coast elites can’t be trusted to understand that “freedom” means throwing out the 1st amendment, capriciously and inconsistently, whenever Pam Gellar wets herself.
Rick Taylor
I keep thinking the right wing in this country couldn’t get any more insane, but every once in a while we have a new low that proves me wrong. This is one of them.
MattF
It’s just bigotry. No, really.
Dave S.
Black Secret Muslin President. SATSQ.
If this was 2007 you’d have Bush at the groundbreaking.
Linda Featheringill
This whole kerfluffle has taken on a life of its own. and will go where it wants to.
If I were are more mystical person, I might think that this is an occasion for the American people to make a decision about what they stand for. If they decide they agree with Obama, they will love him for leading them in that direction. If they decide they disagree with him, they will hate him for ever bringing it up.
And if I were more superstitious, I would suspect that this whole little dustup was more significant for the future development of our society than anyone suspected. [History student talking here.]
But of course, we all know that I am not mystical and I am not superstitious.
And you are correct John. It is “much ado about nothing.”
maya
It’s all perfectly clear to me:1. Mosques breed mosquitoes,(did you ever think of that, huh, didja?) 2. Mosquitoes carry encephalitis. 3. Encephalitis causes swelling of the brain. Need I go on?
nevsky42
You’d think after the Shirley Sherrod debacle the media and Democrats wouldn’t be so quick to respond to right-wing chest-thumping as if there were a legitimate discussion to be had.
(sigh) No, of course you wouldn’t think that. Who would?
Frank
I agree totally. There is another mosque just four blocks away from Ground zero that has been for there for 40 years. Why is four blocks from Ground Zero OK but not two blocks?
And for crying out cloud; this is 2010. One would have thought that people would be more enlightened over time. Instead, most Americans are acting like a petty lynch mob as in the old West 150 years ago. Never mind that these Muslims had zilch to do with the attacks.
And why is OK for Christian churches to be built close to the Oklahoma bombing and bombed abortion clinics, but not this particular mosque?
General Stuck
From a posting over at TPM, fairly well describes why it is a controversy. At least how I view it.
.
BR
I think mockery may be the best answer. The more we mock the idea that it’s hallowed ground by pointing out the sleazy stuff that’s already there, it’ll be harder to defend.
Annie
Republicans and the far right — -particularly the religious right — always need some group to demonize. Gays and Muslims are easy. That’s how they can win elections without actually having a platform or being forced to defend past governance practices and total screw-ups like Iraq and the drug company entitlement program.
Ironically, the right claims ownership of the Constitution, until confronted with an actual Constitutional right, and then they spit and stutter and tell us why they are not stomping on the Constitution, when they actually are.
Annie
Why are I seeing a line through one of my sentences? Must be a Muslim plot or Obama did it.
beltane
Republican policies are widely discredited, even with the low-information crowd. Privatizing Social Security and deregulating Wall Street are not exactly crowd pleasers, but inciting a race/culture war just might me. I predict that a percentage of Independents who vote Republican over this issue may come to regret it sooner rather than later.
Damned at Random
It’s the “hallowed ground”argument drives me crazy. A new skyscraper is being built at ground zero – since when did we built corporate towers on “hallowed ground”? And how fucking hallowed are the titty bars and porn stores located at the same distance from ground zero as the proposed Islamic Center?
BR
@Damned at Random:
This. Except with more mocking and less anger, and we have gold.
joe from Lowell
I always thought “They hate us for our freedom” would be a great slogan for a gay rights group.
Poopyman
@Annie: Hyphen fail.
PeakVT
GMaps street view. Looks like another dumpy street in lower Manhattan to me. The existing mosque four blocks away hasn’t turned that street a suq.
stevie314159
As someone who worked at the American Stock Exchange (2 blocks away) on 9/11, and, truth be told, has been a patron of both The NY Dolls Strip Club and Thunder Lingerie, I am much more offended that it’s been 9 years, AND THERE STILL IS A HOLE IN THE GROUND.
We should have put up a building 5 years ago, maybe looking like this:
Proposed WTC building
Bulworth
I forgot already, but has The Fonzi of Freedom officially weighed in on The Freedom of this? I’d go to their site myself but my psychiatric team has asked that I not watch Faux or surf by Drudge, RedState and other fellow travelers. Thanks
Poopyman
@Frank:
That would be true if the American educational system actually educated the public. But you know how that turned out, especially in those, how shall I put it, “flyover states”.
jwb
@BR: Mocking works largely by shame (which presumes that those you are trying to move in your direction can be motivated by shame) and also tends to reinforce tribal boundaries of “us/them” (“you don’t want to be like those I mock”). Often it is the only way to gain traction, especially in a media climate like the one we have, but it also has serious drawbacks.
stuckinred
@Damned at Random: You want to see how this country treats “Hallowed Ground”? Swing by the Vietnam Memorial and day other than Veterans Day or Memorial Day. Ever here of “Another Roadside Attraction”? Right up the sidewalk toward the Lincoln you are treated to a row of nasty concession stands selling trinkets. USA USA!
Svensker
Well, now they don’t have to hate us for our freedom, cuz we don’t have any! Win win!
J.W. Hamner
Hate polls well.
Bulworth
Well, even though the owners, customers, and, um, performers at these places of ill repute should be stoned (according to all our holy books, you understand), these places didn’t kill us all on 911, whereas the people building the mosque-community center did of course kill us all on 911.
Poopyman
@jwb: Yeah, I’m thinking the Right Wing has been well inoculated against shame these past few years.
joe from Lowell
If the economy and incumbent fatigue have made this such a favorable environment for Republicans, with a growing, enthused teabagger base that can deliver elections, why are they reaching for bright, shiny culture war nonsense?
Chad N Freude
@General Stuck: I was going to post “It’s the symbolism, stupid!”, but you beat me to it.
Why are we not also protesting Muslim chaplains in the military? The Pentagon took a hit on 9/11, and allowing Muslims to practice their religion in the armed forces is an affront to the brave (straight) men and women who defend our country.
kth
Fox News’s morning zoo is, just now, breathlessly wondering whether the ‘mosque’ will be completed before the Ground Zero 9/11 memorial. As though the two things are related in the slightest.
stevie314159
@Bulworth:
I’ve been to Thunder Lingerie. The smell in there WILL kill you.
No problem with the dancers at New York Dolls though.
Culture of Truth
Wasn’t there a famous actor named Zero Mosquel?
JCT
But wait, I thought we (New Yorkers) weren’t real Americans anyway.
Why should they give a rats ass?
/snark
Poopyman
@Bulworth:
Yes, exactly, The goal here is to equate all Muslims as bloodthirsty jihad monkeys who are only here to steal your freedoms and suicide bomb your ass.
And with the help of the MSM, it’s working.
Sheila
The ultimate American value was made manifest in the World Trade Centers themselves, the axis mundi of a culture totally devoted to the pursuit of profits. Sacred space indeed for a patriot like Palin.
MattF
@joe from Lowell
A good question. My theory is that they just can’t help themselves.
Mark S.
I’m beginning to wonder if the GOP is run by a bunch of cynical fucks.
Keith G
1. People are sheep*
2. Republican pols are the most opportunistic of all pols
3. Negative leadership seems lately to trump positive leadership
*They like being led by whoever shows up first. My side tends to show up last and tentatively at that.
p.a.
What else they got left in their bag of tricks? Nuttin’ SATSQ.
p.s. Do they know their target audience, or what? And I mean target in the ballistic sense: Democrats a/k/a the CastratiParty, Duck-and-Cover-Dems. I’m beginning to believe John was right in an earlier post: overall, as a nation, we deserve to have these Thugpublicans run things; like alcoholics, one must sometimes hit rock bottom before redemption. Just didn’t think we could get rock bottom-er than the Cheney administration.
Chad N Freude
@stuckinred: Free market capitalism, dude. The fallen soldiers whose names are on the Memorial would be proud to see the freedom they defended applied in this way.
cat48
Well, the “liberal press” is really upset he said anything, especially Michael Shear:
wilfred
Nothing can, and I hope nothing will, stop the Muslims from establishing the center, which makes all the feelings moot.
Of course, I’d love to see the Muslims say: “Wow, you guys are right, we will go somewhere else. Only we have a lot of moving expenses and business is business, after all. So we’ll sell you the building for 50 billion dollars. After all, hallowedness has no price, so that’s not so much when you think about it. The ADL can help with the financing. In the meantime, piss off.”
This is where the Muslims need to speak for themselves and assert their rights as Americans. They’re not going to get any help from anyone, other than Bloomberg, who has shown real character.
burnspbesq
@Annie:
Show us on the doll where Rahm drew a line through your post.
ellaesther
Ok, I’m contractually obligated by my own obsessions to talk about this again:
For more refudiations of terrorism by Muslims, go here.
roshan
Hey, you should be glad that we don’t stone their women yet. There is every reason to do so until they show their faces through those damned blanket wear of theirs. We might also want to circumcise the minorities, who knows whats going on down there with these dirty people. They get the freedoms to be like us, fuck individuality. All minorities should be made to attend at least five years of a non molesting church under god, that way they can get to know us better and understand how much fucked up we are.
Bulworth
They aren’t. The Heartland has laid claim to Ground Zero (and however many blocks surrounding it are needed for any particular issue). Think of it as a sort of West Berlin behind the Iron Curtain.
ellaesther
PS A friend of mine Tweeted one of the collections of “Hallowed ground” photos thusly:
“Peaceful capitalists, please refudiate: http://bit.ly/aZ5Wrt”
I found it rather awesome.
Legalize
Yes you do. This is who the Confederate Party is.
jwb
@Poopyman: Yes, and given that over the last decade mockery has been the only reliable way for the left to break through the media scape, I don’t think this bodes well.
matoko_chan
what the park51 non-troversy clearly demonstrates is that Bin Laden has succeeded. His end goal was always to convolve al-Qaeda’s mandate with all of al-Islam.
Bin Laden wins because we are prosecuting a war on Islam. we have allowed the hirgabi and the christian right to frame it that way.
instead of allying ourselves with the benevolent parts of al-Islam, we have let the christofacists and theocrats here conflate al-Q with all muslims. For nearly a decade the US has been attempting to proselytize judeoxian democracy with force of arms. It cannot be done. when muslims are empowered to vote, they vote for shariah.
This happened in Iraq.
During the Caliphate there was freedom of religion. Jews and Christians could be citizens, of sorts. But christian proselytization was forbidden. As a CSS, christianity evolved proselytization as a strat to increase reps. Islam evolved counter strats: resistance to proselytization, radical apostasy punishment, intermarriage laws, outlawing public preaching, absorbing the congregants and sacred texts of the other religions (the People of the Book).
The whole war effort, the Bush Doctrine and COIN both, are just attempts to proselytize western-style democracy.
And Islam is immune to proselytization in situ….there is no substrate to support western-style judeoxian democracy.
we are building schools….. fine……but the muslim kids that go to those schools will matriculate to an islamic university in say, 10 years.
there are no secular universities. none.
and im sure our intentions were good.
like the ones that ones that pave the road to hell.
BinLaden has outsmarted America. Pretty good for a cave dwelling shariah following stateless muzzie against the SuperAwesome Last of teh SuperPowers, eh?
He has already won….and we have already failed. The Park51 controversy shows clearly that the american public does not understand the difference between al-Islam and al-Q.
2 trillion dollars and 6 thousand soldier lives later, are we ready to acknowledge that Bin Laden won?
Can we go home NAOW?
valdivia
@cat48:
shoot. me. now.
Chad N Freude
Assuming the Mosque Formerly Known As Community Center actually begins construction, how long do you think it will be before some right-thinking American demonstrates his sympathy for the aggrieved and takes a stand against terrorism by bombing the site?
Danton
My daughter was an intern in NYC over the summer. She knows the locale where the “mosque” will be located.
“I think it will vastly improve the neighborhood,” she told me.
Michael
@Peter:
Every redneck from Dogsquat Mississippi to Peapatch Georgia is positive that they’s some o’ them Mooslim terr’ists waiting to blow up their statchoo of Jefferson Davis that’s out in front o’ their hallowed church.
batgirl
@beltane: Nope, my brother the “independent” who never voted for Clinton and voted twice for Bush the Idiot (and if you get him in an honest moment will admit the Clinton years were good for him and Bush was a disaster) can’t wait to vote for the teatards.
I gotta admit it that sometimes I feel like Cole. Let these idiots get everything they think they want. When they win we should step aside and let them implement their plan fully. Of course, all of us will have to pay, not just the idiots like my brother.
Fuck it all, there is nothing left but to mock.
cat48
@valdivia:
If you don’t want to think about the mosque anymore, you could go to The New Republic & read Judis’ latest masterpiece: “The Unnecessary Fall of Barack Obama.” That’s written by a “progressive” :))
batgirl
@Damned at Random: But are they Christian titty bars and porn stores? Then it is okay.
Kryptik
The sad thing is, as utterly manufactured as this issue is, it is important now simply because it represents the battle for America’s soul as well as its struggle for sanity.
Sad thing is, from the general coverage and framing, even if the community center isn’t cowed into shuttering, the larger issue at a whole seems to be a lost cause. We’ve successfully codified total anti-Islamic bigotry and equated the whole religion with all of terrorism, because some goddamned mindfucks can’t tell the difference and think bravery is bombing the shit out of everyone you think threatens you, while calling the real bravery of standing up for some goddamn basic principles and ideals ‘anti-American’.
That’s the story here. The total ceding of the narrative, the mainstreaming of batshit insanity, and codifying the principles of knee-jerk hate and frothing anger, total xenophobia and callousness, above all principles. This issue is just another chapter in that story, but that’s why it’s so important, and why it’s so goddamned painful to see it unfold the way it seems to be.
roshan
@matoko_chan:
Oh, that Laden, a clever guy he is. He can cease to exist now and it won’t lessen the hurt that the American bigots and fundamentalists are going to bring upon this country and their fellow citizens. We always knew that we had the capacity to destroy any other country but turn all that malice inwards and you are going to get biggest and brightest inferno of self hurt the world has ever seen. Americans will stay exceptional to the end.
matoko_chan
@wilfred: no wilfred. what the Park51 project has revealed is that americans cannot tell the difference between al-Qaeda and al-Islam.
That is what OBL wanted all along, and what Bush feared.
Even that WEC retard George Bush understood a war against Islam is unwinnable.
matoko_chan
@roshan: bi la kayfah, brother.
it is understood.
homerhk
I will repost what I posted (late on) in another long thread:
I despair for the US, I really do. Why should that matter for me, an Englishman who gave up his green card and has no intention to ever move to the US?
Well, to be honest, I don’t really care about whether the US succeeds as a country or not. In fact, I think it is beyond the time that the US dominance in the world is reduced and eventually overtaken. What I do believe, however, is that the President of the US has an amazing influence and affect for the rest of the world. Bush not only ruined the US in his 8 years, but much of the world too.
I like Obama – there’s something about him that I respect and I desperately want him not only to be successful (clearly, he already is more successful than any of his democratic predecessors were going back to Johnson) but want him to be recognised as such by his constituents. The reason why Obama’s election provoked such emotion worldwide and spontaneous celebrations across the globe was partly because of him, but a lot of it was because it seemed that it was a great reflection on the US public coming back to its senses after voting for Bush twice. As the Obama administration continues to be beset by lies, dishonest complaining, criticism from its supporters that could be lifted from the screens of Fox News, our faith in Obama hasn’t lessened, but our faith in the US has.
All those polls that point to a reduced standing of the US in muslim countries don’t tell the full story – it’s not that people like Obama less but that they now realise that Obama is constrained by the fucking stupidity of the US public, democrats and republicans alike.
PurpleGirl
@Damned at Random: When construction is done there will be at least 5 office towers on the acreage, in addition to a memorial of some sort.
One opponent talked about how she “likes to think of her mother being buried there.” Well, it ain’t an open pit anymore. It’s a construction site. The Liberty Tower is at 32 floors and rising. Other buildings have been started. As this one person lives on the West Coast, I wonder, does she make a yearly trip here?
bemused
@Damned at Random:
There is no better way to memorialize ground zero than to build towers containing corporate offices and a shopping mall. It will be so convenient to somberly remember those who died there while at the same time shop, shop, shop. The Cordoba House two blocks away, otoh, would be distasteful and offensive.
General Stuck
OT
From the “That’s Not Really News” department.
I would note that being “distrustful” of the newer and older media does not necessarily equate to not being influenced by them. It’s like negative ads that people say they hate, but admit they work. But still, it is a far cry from the Cronkite era.
danimal
I think we should get ’em on record and force a vote on the issue. We need a Dem to write an offensive, inflamatory bill that brings out the crazy.
Watch the GOP scurry away from this issue if they are forced to:
A) vote for a blatantly unconstitutional restriction of freedom of religion or
B) vote in support of the scarrry Mooslims and enrage their base.
I have no doubt they would vote for A, hoping the courts save the day, but it’s always fun to watch “principled constitutional conservatives” choose between the actual constitution and pandering to neaderthals.
Kryptik
And as if Reid wasn’t enough, several House Dems in NY have decided the best way to get reelected is to jump full in on the mosque fear mongering. One of them, even Arcuri, did so after his GOP challenger came out in support of the center…prompting said opponent to 180 and come out against it…prompting Arcuri to then blast his opponent for flip flopping as if his opposition was truly courageous and proactive.
Fuck them. Fuck them all. Fucking spineless hack fucking dems. FuckfuckfuckfuckFUCK you all. Spineless dicksnipes.
Violet
@General Stuck:
Do you have a link?
Did the article say how this level of confidence in media was different from previous eras?
Violet
@Kryptik:
They are a bunch of pussies. The Dems could come together in solidarity in support of the Constitution. Hold rallies showing that Dems support the rights of all people to worship as and where they please. Get people who live in the area to say they welcome the community center. Ask Republicans if they felt this way about the church near the OK City bombing site, since McVeigh was a Christian and all. Ask them how they feel about the other mosque that had been there, that’s only four blocks away. Ask them how they feel about the mosque in the Pentagon. Put the Republicans on the defensive. Stand strong in support of the Constitution. “The strength of America is in doing the right thing, even when it’s not the easiest thing.”
If they had any balls and any sense they could and would do it. But they don’t, so they run away and show themselves to be cowards.
Villago Delenda Est
It’s interesting that the Gallup and Pew reports are couched in terms of profit.
The transformation of the “news” into being a profit center instead of being a prestige operation is when things started to go down hill.
As usual, once you get bean counters (the pox on our economy that are the MBAs) in charge, things go to hell; the original mission is lost in an orgy of latinum counting.
catclub
@Chad N Freude:
“Why are we not also protesting Muslim chaplains in the military?”
Don’t get them started.
Catsy
Someone upthread had the answer: it is bigotry.
Really, it is that simple. When you break down the sequence of logic behind the objections–and I use “logic” very advisedly here–it goes like this:
1. Al Qaeda was behind 9/11.
2. Al Qaeda are Muslims.
3. Muslims are behind the Cordoba Project.
4. Outrage!
There is not a single objection to this project that does not fundamentally rely on conflating all Muslims with al Qaeda. Not one. Period. Without this conflation, the emotional appeals to 9/11 are as irrelevant as they would be if it was a YMCA being proposed. Without this conflation, the sensitivities of 9/11 victims and families don’t even come into question.
It is bigotry, pure and simple. For some people it is a conscious animus. For some it is just ignorance. But it is bigotry all the same. And for the Republicans currently pushing this hard, it is a deliberate and bigoted decision to tear up the Constitution in order to demonize a religious minority for electoral gain.
wilfred
@matoko_chan:
I doubt it’s even that complicated. It’s just Othering; this time it’s the Muslims.
You only have rights if you’re willing to assert them. Here, asserting them means going ahead with the project and, I hope, speaking out forcefully for what they want and have the right to do.
If Muslims have a place in America, and I certainly hope they do, the Muslims there have got to see this as a kind of Muslim Stonewall, minus the riots. A kind of We’re Here, Get Used to It assertion of the right to exist in any community.
The analogy is not perfect, of course, but the shadow status of Muslims needs to change and that’s up to Muslims, not politicians.
Omnes Omnibus
@Villago Delenda Est: Filthy lucre.
PurpleGirl
http://www.panynj.gov/wtcprogress
A whole bunch of web pages about the progress in rebuilding. Before they could even start on building they had to prepare the site — rebuild the bath tab, etc. You don’t want the Hudson River and the other underground rivers in the area to breakthrough do you?
General Stuck
@Violet: oops, sorry bout that, am doing several things at once and forgot.
AkaDad
Real Americans understand that when we allow a Muslim community center to be located near Ground Zero, we are no longer the land of the free, home of the brave.
catclub
@danimal:
“Watch the GOP scurry away from this issue if they are forced to:
A) vote for a blatantly unconstitutional restriction of freedom of religion or
B) vote in support of the scarrry Mooslims and enrage their base.”
You weren’t watching the Terri Schiavo case very carefully, were you?
(A) is a pretty easy choice when the religion being
restricted is Islam.
Michael
Anderson Cooper is going whole hog on “Terror Babies” with piece of shit Texas Republicans (actually, given my current sentiments, this is a redundancy).
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/11/anderson-cooper-stuns-gop_n_678650.html
Asking these questions hurts their fee-fees.
Enjoy this statement from her:
Nick
Irony…the numerals “9” and “11” were brought to us by Muslims.
Kryptik
@catclub:
Unconstitutionality is a strangely minor issue for these folks when it comes to pushing something on an ‘Other’.
Kryptik
@Michael:
While it’s admirable of Cooper, in retrospect it’s a sad thing he has to be praised for this, because…well, look at what she said: ‘I didn’t expect you to grill me’. No one expects to be aggressively questioned anymore. At least, no one on the GOP. This is something that should be standard with journalism, not some rare occurance to be lauded.
Bulworth
From TPM, this is apparently the latest tweet from Palin. Not sure if the quote is precise, but a “stab in the heart of collectively American” is quite some refudiating.
Egypt Steve
1. Postulate: The terrorists hate us for our freedom.
2. Implication: If we are freer, the terrorists will hate us more.
3. Implication: If we are less free, they will hate us less.
4. Postulate: Building the Near-Ground-Zero Cultural Center would demonstrate our commitment to religious freedom.
5. Implication: Building the Near-Ground-Zero Center would cause the terrorists to hate us more.
6. Implication: Rejecting the Center would cause the terrorists to hate us less.
7. Implication: Anyone who wants to reject the Center wants the terrorists to hate us less.
8. Postulate: All good Americans hate terrorists.
9. Implication: All good Americans welcome the hatred of the terrorists.
10. Implication: Only bad Americans want the terrorists to hate us less.
11. Conclusion: Only bad Americans who want the terrorists to like us are against the Center.
General Stuck
@Violet:
They said current polling is at or near record lows. Based on my recollection of living through the Cronkite era, was just my own opinion as compared to now. Like when Cronkite came back from a trip to Vietnam and declared the war unwinnable, Johnson said something like “if I’ve lost Cronkite” then it’s the shits. I can’t imagine any President today paying that much heed to what any single news anchor thinks about anything.
Kryptik
You know what’s a stab in the heart of America as a whole?
Using 9/11 as an excuse to schuck every single ideal of freedom we have because we were scared shittless by some brown people in a plane. These assholes have no idea what bravery actually is except in the goddamned Rambo sense.
Bulworth
I’m expecting our “Democratic” Congress to soon propose some kind of extra-constitutional, Schiavo-like intervention into the whole business. Or maybe a non-binding resolution allowing our brave congress critters to go on record as “refudiating” the building of the community center/Mosque.
I guess this is the “small government” the teabaggers are demanding.
MattR
Unsurprisingly, those who live in Manhattan are the most supportive of the project (and those who live in Staten Island are the least supportive). From a Quinnipiac poll taken a couple months ago:
And a Marist poll from late August put the Manhattan numbers at 53-31 in support. They group Queens and Staten Island together for some reason with the end result being 60-28 opposed.
ellaesther
@Kryptik: A commenter over at TPM made the rather excellent point that, oh hey: Isn’t the Constitution at least as hallowed at Ground Zero? How many people have died in defense of the Constitution?
Michael
@Kryptik:
True dat.
I looked her up – she’s a big ol’ teatard. Interesting that whenever they get even the mildest form of questioning they tend to fold like a cheap chair at a church picnic. All that echo chamber talking on the internet led to some real sloppy thinking and the inability to convey any rational reason behind all their “self-evident truthiness”.
MattR
@MattR: Doh. Too late to edit, but that Marist poll is from late July and not a peek into the future.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
@Frank:
Four blocks good, two blocks bad!
That quote is from the little known sequel to Animal Farm – Animal City – Napoleon goes Gotham.
fraught
One of the first businesses to reopen after 9/11 was the gay Wall Street Baths one block from ground zero. Touching. Men in towels carrying on while just outside the windows the “Pile” smoldered. It took less than a month to clean the place up even as Century 21 and Brooks Brothers were shrouded in dust and boarded up. Intrepid, those gays.
Chad N Freude
@ThatLeftTurnInABQ: WIN!
Mary Jane Leach
I think it’s easier to see Russia from Alaska than it will be to see the WTC from the “mosque.”
Also, perhaps all of these out of towners who want to tell us what we can and can’t build in NYC will be willing to pay taxes for that privilege, instead of insisting on representation without taxation.
Frank
@Bulworth:
As I recall, at least of the Democrats in Congress voted to condemn Moveon.org’s ad about David Petraeus.
Think about that for a second; Moveon.org, a private organization, took out an ad in a private newspaper exercising its right to free speech. Congress, including half of the Democrats, took time out of its busy schedule to actually vote on the damn ad. Republicans went off the deep end some time ago. But the Democrats are not far behind.
YellowJournalism
Excellent link. The comments are even better:
roshan
What if they don’t allow churches in Iraq? The whole place is like a fucking ground zero.
Mayur
@MattR: Yeah, no offense to the folks on Staten Island, but I definitely find myself wishing we could lose them as a borough sometimes.
matoko_chan
And before we get the America! Fuck Yeah! people in here, the reason the war on Islam is unwinnable is simple scale demographics. There are 1.8 billion muslims in the world and more than half are under 30—Islam is a young growing faith.
How many Americans are there? 300 million? Better yet, how many christian americans and what is their median age?
Toast
All politics is national now. The Cable News Beast must eat.
Munira
@homerhk: I see the same response in Canada (where I live- I’m a dual citizen). For a while, people’s faith in America was restored when Obama was elected. Now they’re beginning to think that the US doesn’t deserve him after all. The people I know here in Quebec would give anything to trade Harper for Obama and so would I.
roshan
@matoko_chan:
Two words: Mushroom Cloud!
ChrisS
@Mayur:
SI is nothing more than NJ-east.
Fuck these mouthbreathers. How will federalizing a decision on what to build in a local community fix the economy, end two wars, and generate a smart energy/climate solution?
BUT THEY”RE MOOSLIMS!
matoko_chan
@wilfred: wallah brother…..its not just othering…..don’t you get it? America has spent over a trillion in treasure and over 6000 soldier lives from the finest military on the planet in blood ON NOTHING.
Bin Laden already won. We just cant admit that all our soljahs died for nothing……and the America Grand Experiment was an EPIC FAIL….we just can’t bear to admit WE LOST.
and we will stay there until ALL our teeth are broken and ALL our purses are empty and Rick Warren and James Dobson and Sarah Palin still won’t be able to build a megachurch in Mecca.
tant pis.
mclaren
Single best comment EV-AR about the whole ground-zero-mosque thing.
Omnes Omnibus
Much of this controversy is a “tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.” In a week or two no one but the Teatards will get worked up over it.
Bob
I ask rhetorically: is it even possible for this country’s political discourse to become more empty or more cynical? At what point might the mainstream media conclude that it’s a far bigger threat to our country that one of the major political parties has nothing else to offer besides un-constitutional hate-mongering?
Maybe someone should call the Republicans’ bluff and propose a change to the Constitution that establishes two different levels of citizenship. There could be the “Real Americans” who get all of the protections provided by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, and then there could be “Second-Class Citizens” who kind of get those protections except when blowhards on Fox News demand that they be more sensitive to the fee-fees of the Real Americans.
matoko_chan
@Omnes Omnibus: in a week or two we will still be pouring blood and treasure into a bottomless pit.
matoko_chan
@Omnes Omnibus: in a week or two we will still be pouring blood and treasure into a bottomless pit.
ellaesther
@mclaren: Well, that certainly puts a little perspective on it, doesn’t it?
I believe I’ll join the more than 100 people who have already re-tweeted it.
Omnes Omnibus
@matoko_chan: And all US policy discussions must be seen through that filter?
matoko_chan
@Omnes Omnibus:
it is the only one we have control over currently. we can’t retro-fix the Econopalypse that Ate Americas Jobs. we can just say…..heya, this war is immoral and unwinnable and we already lost and we bounce!
seems epically pragmatic to me.
catclub
Somebody suggested: “All minorities should be made to attend at least five years of a non molesting church under god,…”
Why the special treatment?
Nick
@Bob:
When it stops being profitable.
danimal
catclub–You wouldn’t be posting here without the Schiavo incident. Make them follow through on the crazy and put them on record; there will be more John Coles leaving their ranks.
The GOP uses these issues to whip emotions but they hate to see them turn into actual votes. They can’t pretend to honor the constitution as they vote to restrict religious freedom. It puts them in a real bind; they much prefer to create a lot of heat and controversy without actually doing anything (EX: see Amendment, Flag Burning).
Unfortunately, spineless Dems don’t see the opportunity available to them (see Reid, H.).
DaddyJ
I keep seeing various slideshows of the area posted, but if I lived in New York, I’d take a dv-cam, start at Ground Zero, and then walk while taping. Then post the vid on YouTube.
From the maps, it looks to me like you can’t even see the building from Ground Zero and would have to walk at least five minutes out of your way to outrage yourself about it.
Maybe such a video would go a long way to showing the level of b.s. being flung around this controversy.
roshan
@DaddyJ:
Ha, here you come with all your “shoot a video, man” advice, while there are protests sprouting all over the country against mosques. What are you going to do, walk from ground zero to Tennessee with a camera in hand, or use the liberal google map thingy for it? Facts, constitution, nothing matters in this debate.
Mnemosyne
@catclub:
So Catholicism is out?
Stefan
I agree totally. There is another mosque just four blocks away from Ground zero that has been for there for 40 years. Why is four blocks from Ground Zero OK but not two blocks?
D’uh — because it’s twice as far! It’s literally double the distance!
Mayur
You know what? At this point, I’m just furious at these motherfuckers. They’re rekindling the fury I felt when, after living through 9/11, having my apartment be a refuge for friends fleeing the site, losing track of my g/f in Building 7 for hours until she got home, and dealing with all the grief and stress and general havoc, I had to listen to a bunch of hayseeds from the middle of nowhere who had previously nothing but vitriol to pour out against my city start talking about *their* grief and *their* pain and immediately crank up the Warmongering Wurlitzer.
Fuck you Sarah Palin. Fuck you Newt. Fuck all y’all right-wingers. You don’t have any pain from 9/11. You used that event to amass power and push your agenda in the most cynical manner seen since the Reichstag fire, and you’re trying to do something similar with this ridiculous tempest in a teacup.
To the extent that there’s “lingering pain” from 9/11, the Cordoba Center has the potential to be a real salve to that pain. In contrast, the rightards offer salt for the wound.
lou
I agree totally. There is another mosque just four blocks away from Ground zero that has been for there for 40 years. Why is four blocks from Ground Zero OK but not two blocks?
Keith Olberman — and I’m definitely not a fan — had a great rant last night. He noted that the actual location of the Ground Zero memorial *is* four or five blocks from the Park 51 site. the northeast boundary of the WTC is what the teatards refer to when they say “two blocks,” but that’s where the new skyscraper will be built.
asiangrrlMN
@Mayur: Preach it. I am tired of Palin and her ilk jacking Ground Zero when it suits her while sneering at anyone who isn’t a real ‘Murikan (which would include the people of NYC) at the same time. This is such bullshit.
@danimal: I would be in favor of this except some of the gutless Dems will cave, and the thing may actually pass.