Just some of the credit for our glorious victory? Walnuts, you’re too modest. (via)
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Come for the politics, stay for the snark.
Consistently wrong since 2002
It’s always darkest before the other shoe drops.
Bark louder, little dog.
I really should read my own blog.
Everybody saw this coming.
“woke” is the new caravan.
My years-long effort to drive family and friends away has really paid off this year.
Incompetence, fear, or corruption? why not all three?
Republicans in disarray!
If you tweet it in all caps, that makes it true!
if you can’t see it, then you are useless in the fight to stop it.
A democracy can’t function when people can’t distinguish facts from lies.
I see no possible difficulties whatsoever with this fool-proof plan.
No offense, but this thread hasn’t been about you for quite a while.
Not so fun when the rabbit gets the gun, is it?
The willow is too close to the house.
Nothing worth doing is easy.
They love authoritarianism, but only when they get to be the authoritarians.
Prediction: the GOP will rethink its strategy of boycotting future committees.
We are builders in a constant struggle with destroyers. let’s win this.
Fuck these fucking interesting times.
Republicans seem to think life begins at the candlelight dinner the night before.
Something needs to be done about our bogus SCOTUS.
JFC, are there no editors left at that goddamn rag?
You are here: Home / What Man Deserves the Credit, What Man Deserves the Blame
steviez314
I wonder whose fault it will be if a car bomb explodes today and kills 100 people?
Alwhite
And so it begins
Dolchstoßlegende
“we would have won if not for those lousy liberals” John McCain’s replacement, 19-Aug-2021
Ash Can
It would make my day if someone were to publicly ask this guy just what in the fuckity-fuck he was talking about.
ChrisS
Victory was never defined, therefore victory is there for the taking. And McCain just made sure the Obama couldn’t claim it (not that he would, but you can bet your sweet ass that Bush or McCain would be setting up a mission accomplished photo-op to pat themselves on the back before the last transport plane left Baghdad).
AnnaN
@Ash Can
Hah!
gypsy howell
Funny, my teevee just told me we’ve still got 57,000 troops there. Plus god knows how many mercenaries we’re still shucking money out for.
But think about it — if GWB hadn’t ginned up a war to begin with, we couldn’t be declaring victory and not going home today. So I guess McAsshole is right.
Scott
I can’t believe these worthless fucks are still worshiping Bush.
BH
Victory???? Iraq has at least one terror attack every day that, if a similar attack happened here, would shut down this country for months and send the GOP into a bedwetting frenzy of unimaginable proportions. Every damn day.
arguingwithsignposts
Oh, look, the god of High Broderism hisownself reminds us how to do it today:
Xero
@gypsy howell: Ha, that was the Onion’s take as well.
geg6
I can’t say how grateful I am that the combat troops are out. I sat watching this with tears running down my face last night, remembering the tears I cried for days at the start of this tragic debacle. Thank you, President Obama, for keeping this particular promise.
Alwhite
I misread the title of this at first & thought you had quoted the great Tom Lehrer:
One man deserves the credit
One man deserves the blame
And Nicolai Ivanovich Lobachevsky is his name, hi!
Alwhite
Also from the Onion:
morzer
I think John McCain deserves a frontal lobotomy. But then, the results of the first one weren’t great.
roshan
Somewhere after 65, 70 the clock should run out on how much productive a person can be or how much sense can he make, at least in the political arena. Old age does seem to increase prejudice, hostility, mistrust and anger towards a younger generation by a lot.
Chyron HR
So on even-numbered days the GOP refudiates George W. Bush, and on odd-nubered days they sing his praises. Got it.
ronin122
@Xero: Alas that is why I don’t bother with The Onion: satire isn’t as funny when you can’t tell the difference between it and reality. Link below for others to look at.
Frank Chow
Can any one of these Elefuggs and Warhawks explain what the heck constitutes victory? Tell me what exactly did we win? Sadam’s hand gun?
*headslamondesk
stuckinred
@roshan:”Old age does seem to increase prejudice, hostility and anger towards a younger generation by a lot.”
Especially when they make stupid generalizations like that.
morzer
@Frank Chow:
“A rock in the middle of the desert, beside a poisoned sea”
(Masada)
spudvol
The Gaggle of Prevaricators (GOP) strikes again.
Frank
What victory? Bush’s war made Iran a powerhouse since Hussein is now gone and thus stronger than ever.
There are some 2 million Iraqi refugees in Jordan as a result of this dumb war. I bet they don’t look at this as a victory.
Hundreds of thousands of innocent people died. I bet they and their relatives don’t look at this is as a victory.
And this idiotic war has cost more than $750 billion to date and will eventually cost trillions. Why doesn’t McCain pay for it himself since he loves the Iraq war so much?
roshan
Another example of an old and mad person: Fred Thompson
spudvol
‘Tis a victory in the same sense that the Cubs are victorious against trophy-hoarding.
To McCain’s credits though, any war that you didn’t spend 5 years eating rice and maggots out of a monkey’s skull must seem like victory.
debbie
No, what Bush deserves is thanks for employing incompetence to stretch out the war so long that his all buddies could reap billions off the war machine.
cleek
the 50,000+ troops still there have guns, will be doing patrols, are expected to meet resistance, will get shot at, will shoot back, etc..
it’s not over until they’re out.
Nick
I retweeted that with a big giant LOL.
morzer
@roshan:
Fred Thompson always looked like a Socialist banana redistributionist.
gypsy howell
@cleek:
But now we can pretend the war is over, and that’s all that really matters.
stuckinred
Another crazy old motherfucker”
El Cid
I think people forget that although the first little bit of the Iraq war (which was of course caused by Bill Clinton because since we couldn’t forever starve Iraqis via sanctions someday we’d have had to blow the shit out of them, right?) was kind of messy thanks to traitor Democrats undermining our national will, George W. Bush Jr. brought in an ancient Roman general David Petraeus to launch the biggest bestest war fixer ever, THE SUUUUUURGE, and that made everything great and stopped Nancy Pelosi from undermining our war in 2006.
El Cid
@cleek: We should just call them “advisers”.
WereBear
I see this as just another way Republicans desperately try to cop some feelgood for themselves.
Sorta like, “Yay, another of the innumerable ways we have made people miserable limping to a close and not a constant gnawing reminder of our greed and incompetence,” kind of thing.
ET
Definition of Victory (as a noun) from the OED:
The position or state of having overcome an enemy or adversary in combat, battle, or war; supremacy or superiority achieved as the result of armed conflict.
OK there was an enemy and adversary, there was combat, battle, and ward. I guess that we showed we have supremacy or superiority of that armed conflict but there is not sense in that definition or in what McCain said that victory actually gained anything beyond proving though armed conflict that the U.S. military has lots of people and spends lots more money on weapons. I guess my idea of victory includes a goal other than that.
wilfred
The war was, is and always will be a national disgrace.
Anyone who wants any credit connected to that is welcome to it.
morzer
@morzer: @roshan:
Fred Thompson always looked like a crypto-Socialist banana redistributionist.
gypsy howell
@El Cid:
According to WaPo, those that remain are conventional combat brigades who’ve been “rebranded” as “advise and assist” brigades.
See, all we needed was a little marketing spin to make the war go away.
I wonder how many civilians will die while being advised and assisted. I wonder how many troops will die advising and assisting.
roshan
@gypsy howell:
Your terminology is incorrect, there is no die-ing out there.
The Iraqi civilians are the insurgents, terrorists and killers, while the US soldiers are the heroes and martyrs out there.
NobodySpecial
You people stop this rebranding of our military advisors as troops right now, or you’re going to make Mike Kay cry.
kommrade reproductive vigor
McCain also thought Sarah De-Railin’ would be a great Vice Presidential nominee.
He also is forgetting that the fReichtards would like to pretend Bush II’s presidency never happened. That way they can blame all the fucked up shit on the Clinton, Clinton, Clinton, Clinton, Obama presidencies.
Puss
@Scott:
McCain was never a Bush worshipper, but he *is* a worshipper of military action of any sort, anywhere, and like all such hawks he has been trying to refight Vietnam through the lens of Iraq. Thus, “victory”.
What an asshole. I do not know how this man sleeps at night.
Omnes Omnibus
@cleek: It is a positive step in the process.
gypsy howell
Now, if we could just “rebrand” the 500,000 new jobless claims as “freedom victories” (you’re free not to have a job!) we could tackle this economy too.
stuckinred
@Omnes Omnibus: Not to the “professional
whinersleft.mr. whipple
Shut up, jerk.
georgia pig
Can’t say you couldn’t see this coming. Something like 30% of the public thinks Obama is a Muslim, so they’ll have no trouble labeling Iraq as a victory and W as a hero. I imagine they’ll also have no trouble thinking Saddam was the mastermind of 9/11 and we had no reason to be in Afghanistan in the first place, that it was all a nefarious plot by that Muslim commie president who got elected by ACORN.
J.W. Hamner
@cleek: Right. 2011 then. But remember there were almost 150K there when Obama took office. I think it’s fair to celebrate this… people who refuse to acknowledge this as a milestone are pretty clearly firebaggin’.
jinxtigr
Some days I have to stop reading Balloon Juice because it’s too damn upsetting :(
I can has nuremberg kthx?
jon
Victory was assured the moment our troops moved in and destroyed every military or quasi-military outpost, vehicle, or gathering larger than a small shrub. We had victory about two weeks after our invasion had begun.
It’s the post-victory running of things that was lost, is lost, and doesn’t need to be acknowledged as anything since that precious earlier victory has been solidified by the creation of that lovely state of Iraq. And never mind that it will have an autocrat to run things, ethnic strife over the fact that it’s a majority-Shiite country, the fact that the Kurds are more and more just going their own way without calling it Kurdistan, the continued presence of Sunni extremists, and the total screwup of ours that allowed for the creation of a constitution that more or less guaranteed a corrupt leadership swayed by religious nuttery. Of course, that last one is the GOP/conservative/teaject way in a nutshell, but who wants to discuss any version of the Constitution with those guys?
NobodySpecial
@J.W. Hamner: Tell that 50k that they’re out of Iraq, then we can call it a milestone.
El Cid
@gypsy howell: Duh. Civilians don’t “die” over there. They simply are amassed in larger statistics about “uneven success” and “difficult times in the fledgling nation.”
roshan
So officially 50,000+ US troops left behind, then how many unofficial Blackwater christian mercenaries still roam out there?
redoubt
@spudvol: Ouch.
(/Cubs fan)
@gypsy howell: Oh, this is South Vietnam about 1963. I wonder who’s going to play the David Halberstam/John Paul Vann roles?
General Stuck
You think civilians are dieing now, wait till we completely pull out, and the Iraqi’s, like they have done for thousands of years, will slaughter each other in large numbers, mostly over sectarian divides for who rules the Sunni/Shia front in Mesopotamia . The war isn’t over, just a lull while those 50 thou remaining barely keep the lid on. A never ending struggle that has existed for circa 1400 years.
Same thing in Afghan, though on a much smaller scale.
stuckinred
@redoubt: This is more like 71.
El Cid
I don’t waste one microsecond of time thinking about the nonsense of those talking about the “victory” in the ‘first stage’ of the most lavish, high tech military in Earth’s history blowing away a 3rd world nation state never capable of facing Western forces but limping after losing a prior war with the US and starved by over a decade of sanctions.
How is the ability of the US to destroy a 3rd world nation some sort of “victory”?
Hugin & Munin
[email protected]: White man’s burden is a bitch, eh Stuck?
El Cid
@General Stuck: Considering that Baghdad was already successfully ethnoreligiously cleansed between Shi’a and Sunni neighborhoods by the time the bullshit “SURGE” began, and that a main function of the “SURGE” was to consolidate that successful ethnoreligious cleansing, in which regions does it seem that the next round of ethnoreligious cleansing will from?
In Iraq, instead of vague timeless “Mesopotamia” territory, there have not been repeated civil / ethnic / religious wars, so what in-depth analysis would help us foresee that rather than to assume it’s true?
It may turn out to be violent, or be violent in comparable scale to what has been seen already.
cleek
@Omnes Omnibus:
true.
we have taken a couple of steps towards the edge of the fire.
we are, however, still in the fire.
@J.W. Hamner:
as with all things, i’ll believe it when i see it. when the last of our “advisers” leave, i’ll believe we’re out. “2011” is just a wish, at this point.
General Stuck
@El Cid: Because once we leave, the Iraqi’s will begin to expunge every last trace of our meddling there, including democracy, and there are plenty of Sunni and Shia left to fight each other. The Sunni will never accept losing their entitlement to run that country, even though a distinct minority. These are proud people that had American style politics shoved down their throats by idiot neo cons, and they will spit it out and decide things like they have always done. And we all will be lucky if it doesn’t draw in surrounding countries and expand into a regional conflict. And really, are you suggesting the Sunni and Shia have not been at each others throats and killing one another over the centuries in this region? Recent past it is true because they have allowed themselves to be ruled with an iron fisted dictator, and for the past eight years by an occupying army from the west.
Do you really think they will salute the imposed democracy and just carry on with it? I don’t. Hope I’m wrong, but doubt it.
Chad N Freude
@mr. whipple:
Fixed.
In case the subtlety makes this too elusive for the brains of a younger generation that makes such observations, replace “old age” with “being Muslim” and “a younger generation” with “Americans” and carefully analyze the result.
Chad N Freude
@jinxtigr: I advocate replacing the variable tagline in the banner at the top of the page with “Most depressing blog on the Intertubes”.
El Cid
@General Stuck: I am most certainly suggesting that until our destruction of the Iraqi state, Sunnis and Shi’as were not at each others’ throats. If you want to suggest that now Iraqi power struggles will reflect more recent, regional development, but if you’re talking a particular nation-state, drop the “oh them’s always been at war” bullshit.
Now, there is an interesting question as to whether or not it is both/either wise or in any interpretation lawful to continue what is, in any real sense, a military occupation, in order to determine the form of government of another nation.
Maybe if the US has to keep troops in Iraq forever (empires always think that will be possible), “democracy” of the ludicrous sort which exists there might be maintained. Or it will become the sorts of “democracy” which has in many nations been indistinguishable from dictatorship. (Mexico’s ruling party kept it up for 70 years, and though there were votes, no, there wasn’t democracy.)
What happens if a complete US withdrawal means there will not be or not be what we would realistically call “democracy”? Should we keep military control of the nation (whatever games there are about saying Iraqi forces are in charge) forever?
Chad N Freude
@roshan: 5,000 or 500,000. H/T McMegan.
Chad N Freude
@El Cid:
Didn’t Nikolai Ivanovich Bush once say that he was opposed to nation-building?
Hugin & Munin
@Chad N Freude: That statement is no longer operative.
burnspbesq
@jinxtigr:
Nuremberg was the victor dispensing “justice” to the vanquished because, hey, we’re civilized and don’t do to our defeated enemy what Rome did to Carthage.
There is no victorious occupying power with respect to the United States.
So you can cheer for FC Nurnberg if you want, but no, you can’t “have Nuremberg.”
Svensker
@gypsy howell:
State Dept. is apparently increasing mercs to 7K
roshan
Now that we are seemingly out, I hope we deliver a wingnut written treatise on the “Contemporary History of Iraq” to the Iraqi people. Since there is a slight chance that those ignorant dumbfucks might forget the Knight in Shining Armor, W, who delivered them from their drudged existence to deaths door. Add the heroics of Jeebus, circa Y2K, in there somewhere, just to fuck with them. Also remind them of Our Lady of Objectivity, Ayn Rand, only in whose footsteps can they attain the final goal of killing each other with greater expediency. It might just motivate the Iraqi slackers who are abstaining from civil warfare, in addition to the folks who are doing a fine job at it.
Mjaum
I vote we send General Stuck back in time and to Iraq so he can show the democratically-challenged iraqis how not to “allowed themselves be ruled” by an iron-fisted dictator.
Also, he should be made to wear a wire. The screaming should be cathartic.
NobodySpecial
@General Stuck: The clearest way to prove you don’t know a damn thing about what you’re talking about is to open your mouth, apparently.
Protip: It wasn’t ‘the Sunni’ that was running the country. It was the Al-bu Nasir tribe.
You now have a Kurd and a Shiite running the country, and they’ve been the ones reconstituting the military. A large percentage of the Sunni have been dispossessed and left the country – what’s left won’t be running things ever again.
Chad N Freude
@roshan:
Define “out”.
J.W. Hamner
@cleek:
You can believe whatever you like, but the fact is we’re perfectly on schedule to have all those guys out before President Palin takes office.
@NobodySpecial:
So you think getting 100K soldiers out of there is nothing to be happy about? I can’t even comprehend such a world view.
General Stuck
@El Cid: Let me be clear. I think we had no business invading Iraq, and the sooner we leave completely, the better. And yes, Sunni and Shia have been at war to varying degrees since the 7 th century, when they have not been occupied and governed by others, like 600 years with the Ottoman’s. Or, internally by dictators, And now they have had their natural flow of politics upended by us, and that portends bad things when we leave, which we need to, because the longer we stay the Sunni Shia reckoning for control of that country will only be worse the longer we stay, and we can’t stay forever.
Much of the current tension isn’t so much about religion though, though that is part of it. But more about politics and senses of entitlement on who runs that country. And then there is oil.
So I want us to get out completely, ASAP. I wanted this before the surge. I think both Obama and much of the military hierarchy believes the same. I hope it holds together when we leave, but doubt it. Obama is doing what he said, and we will leave completely in 2011, and then pray the entire region doesn’t go up in flames. Then we will be back in to protect our supply of the opiate of the masses, oil.
roshan
@Chad N Freude:
Heh. Look again.
NobodySpecial
@J.W. Hamner: I can’t imagine leaving 50k soldiers there to be worth a celebration.
So why do you?
burnspbesq
@El Cid:
” I am most certainly suggesting that until our destruction of the Iraqi state, Sunnis and Shi’as were not at each others’ throats.”
You seem to be awfully close to saying that on balance, Saddam was OK because he kept the lid on. One assumes that’s not what you mean. Feel free to clarify.
Svensker
@General Stuck:
That’s kind of a broad brush you’re painting with there, Gen.
@El Cid:
What El Cid said.
gypsy howell
@J.W. Hamner:
Shall we celebrate again when it gets to 45,000? Then 40,000? Then 35,000? At that rate, we’ll be having victory parades for years to come. Huzzah!
Wake me up when we’re at Zero. And paying for zero mercenaries. The rest is just propaganda.
Can’t believe Rachel and Keith were falling all over themselves with this last night. No wait — yes I can.
Chad N Freude
@roshan: I got it the first time. I just wanted to grab that particular shiny object for the snark value. I should have added something to make that clear.
General Stuck
@NobodySpecial:
What sect was/is Saddam’s tribe? They were Sunni you moron. This thread is infected by firebaggin’ twits and their magical thinking. You all sound like the neo cons spouting how Iraqi’s loves them some democracy. They may, many of them individually, but that does not mean they will embrace it as a country, especially when it was dispensed by the US via the muzzle of an M 16 assault rifle.
LOL
Mr. Neo Con firebagger Nobody Special. This is what John Bolton, or any number of neo cons have been feeding us for 8 years now.
Chad N Freude
@burnspbesq: Saddam Hussein was the very definition of a dictatorial monster. With that out of the way, does the Iraqi man-in-the-street prefer the way things are now to the way things were then?
General Stuck
@Svensker: I respect your anti war mindset Svensker, but not when you adopt left wing tropes to defend it.
J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford
50,000 troops remaining in Iraq doesn’t sound too bad considering that 28,000 U.S. troops remain on the Korean peninsula with 47,000 more in Japan.
J.W. Hamner
@NobodySpecial:
Because people like you won’t even acknowledge it, and pretend the draw down is insignificant, because Obama didn’t give you your pony. It would be a lot easier if you folks admitted your animosity for the administration is causing you to ignore objective reality.
Mike in NC
John McCain needs to be in another plane crash, only this time not walk away. The sooner the better, also, too.
Tone In DC
@BH:
Oh AYUH.
Chad N Freude
“The draw-down is as great thing” vs. “the draw-down is meaningless Kabuki” argument is so-o-o Democratic Party.
NobodySpecial
@General Stuck: You’re a grade-A idiot, and your insults make less and less sense as we go along.
YOU are the moron who’s invoking White Man’s Burden here. Not me. YOU are the one fretting that we still have to have troops there to maintain stability. Not me. YOU are the one ready to ‘go back in’ to save our oil that we don’t even GET from Iraq. Not me.
Who looks more like John Bolton here? Not me.
As far as your dipshit ‘But they’re Sunni!’ comment – There’s a ton of Sunnis who couldn’t stand Saddam’s ass, including those wonderous wonderous Wahabbi’s that Saddam kept throwing in jail whenever he got the chance. But that shit doesn’t mean a thing to you. You’re one step better that George Bush in understanding the religion of that region, I’ll give you that – but only in that you’ve managed to figure out that Sunnis and Shias don’t think alike on Islam.
Chad N Freude
@Mike in NC: Anybody else you wish death for because you dislike their politics?
General Stuck
@NobodySpecial: LOL, you can stamp yer feet, but you still are pawned. You need to read my comments on this thread before letting your head explode all over the place.
NobodySpecial
@J.W. Hamner: Having all our troops out before putting up the MISSION ACCOMPLISHED banner seems logical, not a fucking pony.
But I’m glad you’ve found your flightsuit moment.
NobodySpecial
@General Stuck: Yeah, the next time you bring a fact to the table will be the first.
General Stuck
@NobodySpecial: tee hee
cleek
@J.W. Hamner:
ah… good ol “you just hate Obama”. good stuff. it’s an ad hominem and false dilemma, side by side.
full-on double logical fallacies all the way ! what does it mean?
gypsy howell
@J.W. Hamner:
Is there something magical about having only 50,000+ “rebranded” combat troops in Iraq that strikes you as a Victory Milestone? That’s what I’m missing here.
Jeezus, I half expected Keith and Rachel to re-enact the Kiss in Times Square last night. The war isn’t over. Let’s stop pretending that it is.
When it really IS over, then we can celebrate, if indeed acknowledging the end of a supremely immoral fuck-up can be called celebrating.
daryljfontaine
@Alwhite:
I am never forget the day, I am given first original blog post to write. It is on “Epistemological Analysis of Radicalized Groupthink Among Self-Identified Conservatives in 21st Century America,” bozhe moi. This, I know from nothing. But then I think of Comrade Putin and get idea, ah ha!
I have a friend in Minsk,
Who has a friend in Pinsk,
Whose friend in Omsk
Has friend in Tomsk
With friend in Akmolinsk.
His friend in Alexandrovsk
Has friend in Petropavlovsk,
Whose friend somehow
In Ozernyy can
See Sarah Palin from his house.
D
Linda Featheringill
Although nobody is as old as McCain, some of us are older than other folks. Yet we talk like younger people on this blog, vote like them, support the same causes, and cheer for the same little victories. What does that make us? Would you want us to shut up?
McCain’s problem is not that he got old. He always was a stupid jerk.
[And fred thompson. meh. not even a good actor.]
Bulworth
Comrades, we have won a glorious victory today over the forces of Eastasia.
Also, too, but we shouldn’t leave Iraq anyway because, we should finish what we started and if we leave it will stab in the heart everything our troops did and died for.
gypsy howell
@J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford:
Not picking a fight with you, but how many of those 28,000 in Korea and 47,000 in Japan come home either dead or with arms and legs blown off each year, do you think?
Chad N Freude
@Linda Featheringill: Did you see my comment @Chad N Freude?
Jamie
Another reason I’m still glad Obama was elected.
Fearguth
America cut and ran so fast hardly anybody noticed.
J.W. Hamner
@gypsy howell:
The lowest American footprint since the 2003 invasion means nothing to you? The mission change means nothing? That, since Obama took office, 100,000 American troops never have to set foot in Iraq again, is meaningless to you?
I just can’t understand it.
@cleek:
Your position is nonsensical. You refuse to acknowledge the reality of the draw down and just stick your fingers in your ears and scream. Obama hate is the most logical explanation.
roshan
@Linda Featheringill:
To Linda and all the other
oldfolks not as old as Johnny Mac on BJ, please accept my blanket apologies for generalizing and being a dick. The hallmark cards are on the way. I am also getting offonyour lawns now. That last one, was a double entendre, he he.Jamey: Bike Commuter of the Gods
Maybe Bush’s people took it too easy on ol’ Walnuts back in the ’00 S.C. Primary campaign…
But what STILL amazes me most is how, pretty much through Election Day ’08, the MSM were in this guy’s pocket.
General Stuck
@J.W. Hamner: No point . For the ideological, there is only the ideal to be met for satisfaction. Then, when that is achieved, it is forgotten and it’s on to the next cause. They are annoying, but necessary to have around, imo.
flukebucket
I can’t help but wonder how many boots on the ground we would have in Iraq, Afghanistan and Iran if John and Sarah had been elected.
cleek
@J.W. Hamner:
“believe it when i see it” is nonsensical ? you really have a hard time seeing the sense in not believing we’re out of Iraq until we’re actually out ?
the end of 2011 is 16 months away. are you confident you can predict the future 16 months out ?
actually, it’s not. not even close, really.
Citizen_X
So who gets the credit for our Glorious Victory in Vietnam?
Pangloss
You’re kidding…. we still have troops there? I thought we were done when the last President flew on to an aircraft carrier in May 2003 under a banner saying “Mission Accomplished” and told us (while wearing an enormous codpiece) that we won. I haven’t really been paying much attention since then.
burnspbesq
@Chad N Freude:
Agree on the first point. On the second point, have no clue. Under Saddam, there was water and sewers and electricity. That matters a lot to some people.
To be clear: I DON’T think Saddam was OK on balance. But what I think matters relatively little.
matoko_chan
@General Stuck: most Kurds are Sunnis.
gypsy howell
@J.W. Hamner:
You can’t understand it because you’re moving the goalposts of the discussion.
We’re not discussing whether drawing down troops = a good thing. (sure it is)
We’re talking about whether “50,000 ‘rebranded’ combat troops + xx,000 paid mercenaries = Declare victory! the war is over” or even “= End of combat operations.”
It doesn’t.
If you want to wave your “VI Day” flag around today, have at it.
General Stuck
@matoko_chan: It’s not all about religion, like I said. Some of it is ethnic, like with the Kurds. Some of it is tribal and economic. I am talking about Sunni Arab overarching sense of entitlement to rule Iraq.
elmo
@daryljfontaine:
I love you.
matoko_chan
@General Stuck: but it isn’t an imposed democracy.
Iraq is a representative islamic state, with shariah in the constitution and religious political parties. The shayyks and imams still call the shots, and Iraqis are not our friends. they declared a national holiday when american troops left their cities.
americans caused the death of one out of every 200 iraqis over the last 7 years. we destroyed 65% of their physical infrastructure with bombs. the whole “Saddam let the infrastructure decay” bullsytt was bushrove propaganda. we destroyed the power grid, we destroyed the water purification system, we destroyed the roads and buildings with our assclown shock and awe hubris.
we destroyed their social infrastructure, their police, their army, their colleges and schools…… and killed 150,000 muslims.
there is no way to spin this as anything but a disaster.
Cain
@geg6:
Yes, thank you, Obama. Now keep em in the damn country and don’t send them to Afghanistan. I think they’ve seen enough war.
cain
General Stuck
@matoko_chan:
sigh
And the rest of your comment, I hope is not directed at me, because I have never spun our Iraq clusterfuck, in any other way but a disaster. Find another strawman to argue with.
Cain
@geg6:
Yes, thank you, Obama. Now keep em in the damn country and don’t send them to Afghanistan. While you are at it, get rid of those contractors too.
cain
YellowJournalism
Could we please have STFU as a tag here? And on the Dean story, too.
matoko_chan
@General Stuck: yet Sistani is the Supreme Ayatollah of all the Shi’ia and Karbala the holy city of the twelvers, holier even than Qom in Iran.
America has no understanding of al-Islam. isnt this obvious?
Sarah Palin and the teabaggers can’t tell the difference between al-Islam and al-Qaeda.
Bush didnt understand that when muslims can vote, they vote for shariah.
we simply can never proselytize western-style democracy in MENA.
it cannot be done.
al-Islam has been immunized to proselytization from its inception.
matoko_chan
@General Stuck: im trying to correct your tedious western culture chauvinism.
when muslims can vote, they vote for shariah.
that tautology could have saved us 1.2 trillion dollars and ~6000 soldier lives.
it is impossible to ‘impose democracy’ in MENA.
it cant be done.
J.W. Hamner
@cleek:
Yes, because you are seeing it. It’s happening right now! It was on the news even. But you are clearly trying to set up a situation that if there are 5 Americans in Iraq teaching them how to drive the tanks they bought from us on Jan 1 2012, then the Iraq War isn’t really over.
That’s a strange semantic argument that is fundamentally nonsensical.
@gypsy howell:
So you think they are going to start acting unilaterally again? Or do you just not acknowledge an “advise and assist” role as functionally different from US combat brigades waging war against insurgents on the streets of Basra? It boggles the mind that anyone could approach the conflict there like this.
General Stuck
@matoko_chan: Said no such thing about who muslims vote for. That is made up in your belfry where all those bats live. go away
matoko_chan
@General Stuck: Orly? weren’t you one of the juicers ranting about stoning and shariah law?
and you did say…. imposed democracy.
didnt you?
General Stuck
@matoko_chan: No, I was not.
I did say democracy was imposed on the Iraqi’s by us. Earth to Matako. jeebus.
matoko_chan
@General Stuck: but it wasn’t.
we tried to proselytize democracy…..we perhaps even tried to impose democracy….but we failed.
Iraq is a representative islamic state.
the reason this is instructive, Stuck, is Afghanistan. we need to GTFO yesterday.
we did not have ANY SUCCESS in Iraq. we spent blood and treasure FOR NOTHING.
and we cannot ‘impose’ a democracy in afghanistan.
it cannot be done.
do you understand?
General Stuck
@matoko_chan: done with your nonsense.
someguy
Hah. I wondered what the Professional Left was going to say about this. Now it’s clear.
“The war’s not over until Obama declares defeat.”
I’d have thought this tacit acknowledgement of defeat would be enough for them, but noooo… “The war’s not over, until we *say* it’s over.”
Assholes.
SRW1
John, general Phyrrus called, wants to know how many such victories the US thinks it can afford.
cleek
@J.W. Hamner:
hooray ! but why do you insist on arguing against something i’m not saying ?
if it’s five, who cares? if it’s 25,000 and they’re still being regularly killed, that’s a totally different story. but until the time actually comes, we won’t know what the number is. duh.
Mnemosyne
@J.W. Hamner:
Unfortunately, that’s pretty much the mindset. I’m not quite sure why having 2/3rds of the troops in Iraq leave ahead of schedule is proof positive that the rest are never going to leave even though there’s a schedule for them to do so, but cleek and gypsy howell have that idee fixe that, on Iraq, Obama = Bush, and nothing is going to change it.
cleek
@Mnemosyne:
i invite you to find examples of me saying that.
otherwise, i’d like you to admit that you’re a liar.
Chad N Freude
@burnspbesq: The secondary sources that I rely on for this kind of info say that water and sewers and electricity really do matter to a lot of Iraqi citizens who feel that their daily lives have gotten a lot worse since Bush/Cheney decided to free them from their dictator. I think there is a serious moral issue here: Is it more righteous to liberate a people with the risk that things may turn out badly, or leave them as they are but able to live with the amenities of modern civilization?
JohnR
@Alwhite:
Plagiarize! (only remember please to call it “research”). As so often Lehrer, was both ahead of the curve, and (strangely appropriately) perhaps an unwitting teacher.
Also, funny about that Onion take – that was the God’s-honest exact reaction I had, only they phrased it more nicely. Well, I have to give Obama credit – it needed doing, but of course no matter how it works out it will be a PR/political hit for him, because a Republican would have done it better, sooner, longer, harder, faster, whiter, less Muslimy, etc. Not to mention that Obama will haltingly and half-heartedly talk about the benefits to doing this, but not directly respond to the constant GOP drumbeat of frothing-mad lies and blame for whatever disasters and crises are yet to come. I now just assume that we’re going to have a fascist government in my lifetime, and the only question is just how it gets installed, and exactly when. At least the German Weimar period had lots of enthusiastic decadence; we just get the ‘decadence lite’ version of reality TV, along with the cicada-like continuous, shrill screaming from the neoPuritan GOP hypocrites about bottomless liberal depravity.
Brachiator
@General Stuck:
“Thousands of years” and “1400 years” is a contradiction.
There have been periods of peace in Iraq and some of the most significant destruction was the result of Mongol invasions in the 13th century, which obviously had nothing to do with sectarian struggles.
The point is not just that people often misremember the past of the Middle East and falsely try to create a picture of eternal conflict, but also that the past does not always let you predict the future.
Despite the huge, stupid, murderous blunder of the US invasion of Iraq, the country and its people are not necessarily doomed to becoming a strife-torn failed state.
General Stuck
@Brachiator:
I didn’t misremember anything and included periods of relative peace during occupations of others, and with iron fisted dictators as well. What is this, straw man argument day?
And no, I am not sure what will occur when we leave, but I doubt it will include living happily ever after under the shade of democracy we imposed there. I could be wrong, like I said. But that is my opinion, and it is backed up by pretty consistent recent history of Sunni’s being the rulers of majority Shia and Kurdish Iraq.
Alwhite
@SRW1:
NobodySpecial
@J.W. Hamner: If you can’t see the difference between 5 people training tank drivers and the current equivalent of two-three divisions currently in Iraq, then I weep for you.
dj spellchecka
npr quoting marine reserve capt. peter brooks : ” ‘combat operations’ is sort of a relative term. I think some troops who remain after this date are going to see things that look kind of like combat.”
NobodySpecial
@General Stuck: This was your original quote.
Don’t blame others for constructing the strawman you built.
someguy
Well then… Republicans led the 2003 invasion so we know that mongoloid invasion isn’t the solution, but maybe if we could get some actual medieval-era Mongols to invade it’d fix things.
Alwhite
@JohnR:
Yes, we will all be guilty of the “stab in the back”. If they are successful in pinning the mooselimb on Obama there is a very good chance that they can carry the analogy all the way out with the Jewish bankers being replaced by Muslim Americans.
12,000 Jews died in combat fighting FOR Germany in WWI, they enlisted at a higher % than Christian Germans but when the time came to find a scapegoat they filled an ancient need. The handful of Muslims that died in WTC and in combat there after will mean nothing.
matoko_chan
@General Stuck: what i am trying to impress on you is that THERE WAS NO BENEFIT.
you are trying to blame the sectarian violence on the shi’ia/sunni conflict…..
no, assclown, WE DID THAT.
we destroyed their social and physical infrastructure and hand built the reavers that came through the tears in the fabric of their society.
now you are saying its all their fault anyways.
BULLSHYTT you ignorant twodigit assclown.
Jamie
well Johnny mack has a point, If Bush hadn’t started the war and run it so badly, Obama wouldn’t have had to stop it.
General Stuck
@NobodySpecial: There has been a neverending struggle between Sunni and Shia over the split in that religion. Struggle does not necessarily equate to continuous war and killing, now does it. Except maybe in the firebagger mind.
Alwhite
@dj spellchecka:
Ike had 5000 non-combat troops in Viet Nam in the 50’s despite the walls remembrance some of them died there but we were not at war so I guess they don’t count.
– – – –
Am I happy that there are only 57000 sons & daughters in Iraq (I refuse to count the 7000 sociopath killers we pay to play Rambo there) instead of 150000? Yeah, Herpes is better than HIV but not a cause for celebration.
General Stuck
@matoko_chan:
Never said we didn’t. Or, at least inflamed the divisions that already existed. This has to be on the greatest list of dumb threads on this blog.
edit- You know matako, you are really becoming unglued around here. It is sad and pathetic to watch.
Mnemosyne
@cleek:
I’m not sure how you expected us to interpret, “‘believe it when i see it’ is nonsensical ? you really have a hard time seeing the sense in not believing we’re out of Iraq until we’re actually out ?” in your comment #109.
So when you say, “I’ll believe it when I see it,” you’re not saying it’s not going to happen? Because that is the generally accepted interpretation of that phrase in American English.
You also said this at #26:
Again, how are we supposed to interpret that as anything but you saying that the current withdrawal is a lie and you don’t believe that the withdrawal scheduled for 2011 is going to happen?
J.W. Hamner
@NobodySpecial: For somebody who can’t tell the difference between 150K and 50K soldiers and between 904 fatalities and 149… that’s pretty rich.
Mnemosyne
I’m very confused by all of the people comparing this to Vietnam in 1953 and not, say, 1972. I don’t see any logic to the comparison whatsoever.
General Stuck
@J.W. Hamner: unless I read the chart wrong at icasualties, there have been 45 US military deaths in Iraq this year, and likely a large fraction of those were accidental, or not due to combat.
J.W. Hamner
@General Stuck:
Oops you’re right… I was looking at 2009. Though to be fair, 2010 is only ~3/4 over at this point.
General Stuck
@Mnemosyne:
These days around here, I would say if you’re not confused, then you don’t know what’s going on.
edit – see comment below to see what i mean.
matoko_chan
@General Stuck: i want it to be perfectly clear.
we made things worse.
our soldiers died for nothing.
we poured out blood and treasure because Bush was a WEC retard and cheney and rove were evil manipulators that ran him.
im getting crabby because when you say dumb things like “imposing democracy” and “it will be worse when we leave” that means there might be enough ignorant sub-sapient troglodytes like you that the warpimps could get it up again.
and that can never happen, asshole.
Sly
What, not even a well-deserved thrashing of the Senior Asshole from Arizona gets traction anymore? Some of you guys need to stop polishing your fucking halos already.
cleek
@Mnemosyne:
of course not. if that’s what i wanted to say, i’d say it.
i don’t think it’s quite that pessimistic. at lesat, that’s not what i mean when i use it, or any of the myriad equivalents i’ve used.
i can’t say it any clearer than i’ve said it dozens and dozens of times here over the years: when we’re actually out, i’ll believe we’re out.
until then, i’ll take 16 month schedules to be wishes and statements of intent, rather than certain reality which hasn’t yet come to pass.
matoko_chan
@General Stuck: heh.
yeah im crazy.
no war but class war fuckers
:)
JohnR
@matoko_chan:
In fairness to the good General (and I must say, I’m admiring his work – that lovely bit of smug concern for your mental health could hardly have been bettered by my own father!), it _will_ very likely be worse when we leave. Just not, as it happens, for us. Personally, and considering that there seems little-to-no chance that our continued presence will somehow magically transform Iraq into a shining beacon of fluffy-bunny democracy such as we ourselves revel in at this moment, that’s a sacrifice I’m willing to make. We’ve done our level best to create another libertarian paradise (akin to Somalia) in Iraq, and now it’s time for the Iraqis to manfully stand up and assume control of their own destinies. Let each Iraqi Galt away according to his abilities (as best they can, poor heathens) and we can expect a sunny, stable, Sunni/Shi’a state in no time. There may be a bit of disruption and upheaval for a few years or so, but of course, you can’t make an omelet without breaking a few eggs. And, after all, it’s not like they’re real people like us.
matoko_chan
@JohnR: you are another dumbass. we killed 150000 muslims. one out of every 200 people in Iraq. we killed 6000 of our own. we spent over a trillion we didnt have.
we bombed their infrastructure back into the stoneage and blamed it on Saddam.
all because Bush thought we could “implant western-style democracy”.
wallah….the Iraqis declared a national holiday when american troops left their cities.
in 2006 the Iraqis had a 911 every week on a total pop of 26 million souls.
it wont be worse.
you think im joking about NWBCW?
we are coming for you old warpimps.
im in the crowd scenes in that flobots vid.
a lot of us are.
matoko_chan
lawl.
thinking about mistermixs post on the age war…..
NWBAW
no war but the age war.
Joshua
In 10 years there will be another strongman running that country, sabre-rattling like hell, and the next John McCain will be cheering for a war he doesn’t have to fight in. And all the 25-year old Kaganites working at the AEI will all be cheering for it too.
burnspbesq
@matoko_chan:
If you can’t afford to have your prescriptions refilled, just say so. We’ll take up a collection for you.
Brachiator
@General Stuck:
RE: I didn’t misremember anything and included periods of relative peace during occupations of others, and with iron fisted dictators as well. What is this, straw man argument day?
You said:
Were those periods or relative peace hiding between the lines somewhere? And I’m still wondering how thousands of years (implies more than one even in McMegan land) can simultaneously be 1400 years.
As an aside, I would pay good money to retire both Godwins and strawmen, as terms continually abused, misused and misunderstood.
We haven’t imposed much of a democracy. And here I am not so much disagreeing with you as just noting that neither of our opinions much matter, and the Iraqis are under no obligation to trundle along based on anything that has happened in the past.
@matoko_chan:
So (semi trick question) The US should have left Saddam Hussein in place? And don’t waste time assuming that I think that the US invasion was justifiable.
matoko_chan
yup.
when we saw there were no WMDs we GTFO.
let Saud and Iran draw a line down the middle and fuck each other up.
instead we fucked ourselves, and fucked the Iraqis.
righteous.
Felonious Wench
@burnspbesq:
Between the issues with E.D., the rants about idiots thinking Islam and democracy are mutually exclusive, and the lack of capitalization, punctuation, and spacing in the posts, I’ve learned to scroll quickly past anything with matoko_chan’s name on it lest I get a headache.
Brachiator
@matoko_chan:
RE: The US should have left Saddam Hussein in place?
OK, just checking. As I recall, you note that Muslims always choose shariah law when given a chance. Saddam Hussein was imposed upon Iraq and obviously wasn’t letting anyone choose shariah law.
So, I was just wondering how the Iraqis were supposed to get from Point A to your favorite Point B
matoko_chan
i have a legit issue with ED.
perhaps you should read this since you missed it.
matoko_chan
@Brachiator: cultural evolution would have eventually delivered the same result.
America stopped propping Saddam up after Gulf I.
he was going down eventually, Iran would have taken him out, or else the Sauds.
either way it wasn’t our bidness…..certainly not at the steep price of 6000 dead american soldiers and 1 trillion taxpayer dollars to make another islamic state where a lot of muslims hate us.
General Stuck
@Brachiator:
I also said the below, in another comment, that if you had read the entire thread would have known.
@General Stuck:
So what part of lull, don’t you [email protected]General Stuck:
You might bother yourself to read the entire thread when choosing to challenge someones position. And you seem to be back at your tight assed school marm schtick, grading and correcting every little nuance. I mean 1400 versus thousands. Okay, I am corrected. You feel better now?
No, you are harvesting dingleberries from yer navel.
Brachiator
@General Stuck:
You might bother to write less sloppily. Even in a blog. Because when you do, your points are often worthwhile.
And it makes it easier to discern good points from the drivel of people who clearly, falsely, and continuously assert that Iraq and Afghanistan are nothing but constantly warring factions “for thousands of years.” It ain’t just about “nuance.”
Mnemosyne
@cleek:
I think we’re talking about two different things to be happy about here. Personally, I am extremely happy right now that the president kept his promise and not only brought the majority of the troops home on schedule, they’re coming home slightly ahead of schedule.
The fact that this part of the schedule was kept gives me some confidence that the other half will be kept as well. I haven’t heard anything other than pessimistic rumblings about how of course we’ll never leave because we’re an empire now that leads me to think otherwise.
So, yes, I am happy right now, because we are leaving Iraq on schedule and as promised. I’m not popping the champagne cork until the end of 2011, but I’m also not grumping around complaining because, sure, this part of the withdrawal is complete but the future is uncertain blah blah blah.
In my mind, delivering on Phase 1 gives me confidence that Obama will, in fact, deliver on Phase 2. If he had missed the deadline, then I’d be worried, but I see no reason to assume that of course Phase 2 will not happen on schedule.
General Stuck
@Brachiator:
Thanky you miss good grammar. I don’t rite to good and will try to do butter, but you sure haz a nice bun. umph!
In my holler, anything over a thousand is thousands. Damn yankee know it alls.
Brachiator
@General Stuck:
As long as I have been on various versions of the InterTubes, there have always been WATBs who gripe, “I don’t have time to think or write clearly, or to indicate that I have the slightest grasp of what I am posting about, but you should be able to figure it out. Just read my thread, fill in the gaps, cross your fingers and hope for the best.”
Good to see that some things haven’t changed.
I don’t give a rat’s ass about grammar most of the time. Spelling … a non-issue, especially since the average person’s grasp of either is getting looser than a Sarah Palin Facebook entry. But I’ve noted 14 year old kids school their elders and supposed superiors, even with funky spelling and grammar, because they took the time to craft what they wanted to say clearly, because it was important to them to make sure that they got their point across.
But you are getting close to McMegan territory here. Why should anyone care about a few decimals throwing billions into trillions. Or a clear idea. We should all be able to figure out what she means, right?
Or, “I don’t care if it’s a community center blocks away from sacred ground. Community center. blocks away. mosque. Ground Zero. Same thing!”
Yeah, right. The alternate title for One Thousand and One Nights is not Thousands and Thousands of Nights.
Not even in your holler.
General Stuck
@Brachiator: You know, if I had not given a numerical estimate of 1400 along with using thousands, then you might have a point, otherwise it is just more of your pedantic noodling bullshit.
Felonious Wench
@matoko_chan: I read it when you first posted it. But that horse is now fly-blown, covered in maggots, and breaking down into fertilizer.
Brachiator
@General Stuck:
I really admire the way you keep flogging the dead horse defense of your crappy writing. Oh, no, you aren’t being sloppy, imprecise and contradictory, it’s pedantry. Pedantry, I tell you.
OK. Moving on.
General Stuck
@Brachiator: I poke fun at my own shortcomings in the writing department all the time around here. But I can’t help myself from mocking the smug, sanctimonious, and condescending. That would be you.
Brachiator
@General Stuck:
You waste time poking fun at your own shortcomings in the writing department. Try to write better. This is not being smug or sanctimonious.
And you don’t have what it takes to mock me. And yes, that is condescension.
General Stuck
@Brachiator:
My writing and making my points are just fine, thank you. Common grammar and spelling was what I was talking about. But I make few factual errors that I can’t back up with evidence/but it sometimes happens.
Only a smarmy boob would claim that “thousands” confused him, when an actual number was also provided. This is all you have. and it’s not much.
You write pointless drab navel gazing water soup half the time, kind of like
@Brachiator:
which is why I only read your comments when they are on my comments, and that is painful enough. Maybe you should do the same and we could avoid this sort of thing.
matoko_chan
@Felonious Wench: but it is the horse of truth.
what is Kain doing here?
shouldn’t he be off merrily linking to Douthat and McMegan for more base pandering?
did you read it?
his explanation of why he banned me was he needed to stick up for Rush when Rush said ‘i hope he [Obama] fails’ or the base wouldn’t lissen to him anymore.
they don’t lissen to him anyways.
i want him to quit pretending we are the same.
that is a lie.
those christofascist racist fucktards have had a death grip on America for a half century, and the only reason Kain is sukking around BJ is that he wants to change the rules now that those assholes are going to get a ginormous asswhupping from the demographic timer.
The skeletal grip of a corpse’s hand round eggs trying to hatch.
Malron
@NobodySpecial:
Its a milestone because two years ago Obama promised to do exactly what was done yesterday. He also said the remaining 50,000 will be gone by the end of 2011. I’m sure the 92,000 that have left to date think this is a big fucking deal.
CalD
Hey. You can’t have a victory without a war, right?
And who started the war?