At what point do we just give in and accept that we are a fascist state:
Sheriffs in North Carolina want access to state computer records identifying anyone with prescriptions for powerful painkillers and other controlled substances.
The state sheriff’s association pushed the idea Tuesday, saying the move would help them make drug arrests and curb a growing problem of prescription drug abuse. But patient advocates say opening up people’s medicine cabinets to law enforcement would deal a devastating blow to privacy rights.
Allowing sheriffs’ offices and other law enforcement officials to use the state’s computerized list would vastly widen the circle of people with access to information on prescriptions written for millions of people. As it stands now, doctors and pharmacists are the main users.
Gee. It probably would make it easier to make drug arrests if you had a list of people using prescription drugs. You could go to their house, knock in their door, and you are probably guaranteed to find drugs! And then you could seize any loose cash, the drugs, and any property you think might have been involved in the drug use, call their abode a “crack den” and seize that too. And then it is up to the person using a legally prescribe substance to prove they are innocent to get their property back.
At some point, people are going to realize that the war on drugs and the war on terrorism are actually declarations of war on the rights of the American citizen. Can anyone anywhere give me one good reason why some fascist cop in North Carolina needs to know what my doctor prescribed to me? Just one.
And it goes without saying the kind of negative effect this will have on pain management. This is just another attempt to intimidate doctors.
Violet
And the black market for those drugs will increase as people are afraid to have the prescription on their “permanent record” and look to alternate ways to relieve their pain.
Don’t forget the cops will shoot your dog(s) while they’re at it.
El Cid
Why should this just be limited to known prescription drug users? Why not just random home inspections of any home, particularly those in areas where there ever has been evidence of drug use?
bkny
don’t forget the extra fun these pigs have shooting the family pet; terrorizing the children and tearing up the house in search of the prescribed medications….
some legislator needs to add steroids to the list. that will put a damper on these pigs’ jollyfuntime activities.
cleek
i do not approve of this
AlanDean
I can’t think of ANY reason this should go ahead, although this would give police another chance to taser someone in their own house, a growing trend. Oh ya, and protect me from my doctor who is obviously a pusher.
Walker
You can also kill their dogs for no good reason while you are at it.
maya
Not to worry. We can expect the arm of Big Pharm will crack skulls in this fight.
Bella Q
No member of law enforcement anywhere needs to know what any physician prescribed you, or anyone else. There may be an argument that looking at – w/o identifying the patients – how many scripts for assorted controlled substances, primarily Schedule II, a physician writes, to look for patterns of overprescribing that might be helpful. But to whom these scripts are written is part of what HIP\AA is designed to prevent release of (albeit for slightly diffrerent reasons). Not that I have a strong opinion.
David
I doubt that the pharmaceutical industry would be okay with this as illegal drug use is a considerable source of revenue.
D. Mason
Goddamnit Cole when are you going to learn that if you’ve done nothing wrong, you have nothing to be afraid of? Geez.
Bulworth
Not to worry. I’m sure the rabidly anti-government teabaggers will be right on this.
CA Doc
It’s bad enough that the damn pharmaceutical companies can somehow know every script I write, but for the police to know as well would be chilling for doctors and patients. Patients who legitimately need narcotics for chronic pain are already fearful have the “addicted” stigma attached to them (when they aren’t psychologically addicted at all). And good luck getting already stressed primary care docs to prescribe meds that might cause them to be hauled into court to defend both the patient and their medical decisions. We’ll just quit paying for our DEA numbers and tell patients to call a pain specialist, who won’t have space to see them.
Violet
It probably isn’t all that hard to find a Pharmacy Tech at a local chain drug store or big box store pharmacy department who would be willing to “share” a little of info if you offer the right incentive.
merrinc
This is a mind-numbingly stupid request and while the NC Legislature is far from perfect, I doubt it will go anywhere.
And this little tidbit is yet another example of the utter futility of the War on Drugs:
Like the local sheriff’s office has the manpower to sift through that massive amount of data and actually do anything with it.
Corner Stone
They just want to keep us safe, you fucking firebagger.
Corner Stone
@merrinc:
Who says they will sift through anything? Woops! Mistakes were made!
Now good luck trying to put your life back together.
This is just a fear tactic. Just like taking your god damned shoes off at the airport.
cleek
@merrinc:
> select * from Prescriptions where FirstName=’Joe’ and MiddleInitial=’Q’ and LastName=’Suspect’
> Query returned 503 rows in .01 seconds
….
Violet
@cleek:
Exactly. They’re not going to sift through the database. They’ll look at the database whenever they need something as an excuse to ransack a house and grab a suspect. It’s not very hard to write a few scripts to find out who uses what medication and also who uses a lot of medication type x.
Mike from Philly
Not to worry. I’m sure the anti-fascist teatard brigade will be all over this. Ditto the Obama administration’s spirited defense of CIA torture – I mean they hate that guy.
What’s that you say – they’re perfectly comfortable with both? Shocking.
El Tiburon
@Walker:
Beat me to it. Or kill innocent kids or old people. Or whomever the fuck they want whenever they want for whatever reason they choose.
From tasers to torture, there is no doubt this mentality of Us vs. Them has to end. We vest too much power in cops. We bestow upon them this mantle that they are Special and of higher-than-average morality and ethics when in fact they tend to trend the opposite direction.
Yet another ghastly by-product of the conservative mantra of ‘law and order’ especially against people who don’t look like a bowl of vanilla ice cream.
Rosalita
@Violet:
came to my mind also, can’t have your private dog on your private property defending his master and his master’s LEGAL prescription…
Sloegin
Any state that makes it easy for the Police to do their jobs is…
A Police State.
merrinc
@cleek:
Yeah, and then what? Are they going to send out postcards?
How many deputies can they spare to send out and roust each person who filled a scrip for pain meds in Wake County? In Mecklenburg county?
NobodySpecial
Um, yeah, file this one in the bullshit zone.
Most of the folks who abuse prescription drugs buy them secondhand. How are you going to be able to target people without a prescription if they’re not in your precious database of people with prescriptions? How are you going to prove someone dealt prescriptions rather than them being stolen/flushed/taken? This will be easy shit to get out of and do no actual help in restricting people from selling the shit out of hillbilly heroin. What top cops need is less stupid people advising them on legislation.
Nimm
@merrinc:
I’d say the more likely scenario is – they’ve got their eye on someone that they don’t like, either because s/he is legitimately a crime suspect, or because s/he is just a “usual suspect.” So, run a search on the database and see if the undesirable happens to be on there as well – bingo, one more excuse to interrogate, investigate, or intimidate them, and maybe something you can throw in a search warrant request for good measure.
Scott Supak
Even when I lived in a state where med pot is legal, my Doctors wouldn’t prescribe it because of intimidation by the AMA. As a result, my prescriptions are heavy on the expensive pharmaceutical end of things, and empty on the cheap (or free if I could grow it) and effective end.
Now that they want to make sure I’m not sharing my expensive pain meds, I wonder what big pharma will think? It’s one thing to have a police state protect the profits of pharma; it’s quite another to tamper with them.
valdemar
Here in Stalinist Healthcare Britain, any politician or chief constable suggesting such a violation of patient confidentiality would end his/her career overnight. What the hell went wrong?
El Cid
@El Tiburon: If residents don’t want to risk being shot by police, they should not live near people who might now or one day take or deal drugs.
Nimm
@El Tiburon:
Had to shoot the barking dachshund – it was jeopardizing officer safety in the line of duty.
Had to shoot the uncle – he looked like he was reaching for something when the door was smashed open.
If you just assert that officer safety was being possibly, conceivably compromised, anything is kosher.
Had to taser the epileptic 10 times – he wasn’t complying with a lawful order, and we didn’t know if he was freaked out on the marijuana or something.
Etc Etc
gene108
Vanguard episode on Oxycontin abuse. Worth watching.
http://current.com/shows/vanguard/91183979_the-oxycontin-express.htm
Many painkillers are basically some form of opiate or synthetic substance that mimics the effects of opiates.
Opiates are very addictive. Pain management centers pump out prescriptions and people take these pain killers and sell them, in lieu of actually dealing heroine, to people who want the high opiates give.
There’s a real problem with painkillers being sold in lieu of other opiates.
I light of the problem America has with painkiller abuse, I can see NC sheriffs wanting tools to get a better lead on drug dealers.
Chad S
Its not anywhere near a police state as long as any “request” or “demand” by the police can be challenged in a fair court room. Especially when the police force is asking the state legislature to approve a bill giving them the authority.
sukabi
@Sloegin: the police are not supposed to gin up crime, they are supposed to respond to and prevent crime… having access to a database of legally prescribed medications to look for someone who might be abusing their medication is WAY outside that mandate.
I’m sure there are plenty of meth houses, crack dens and corner pushers to keep them busy if they’re concerned about drug abuse in their communities. THOSE are the drugs / users they should be concerned with. Not the poor slob that’s recovering from surgery or cancer.
NonyNony
@NobodySpecial:
It makes slightly more sense if you think that the people with prescriptions might be prospective dealers rather than abusers. People doctor shopping their condition around to get multiple prescriptions to turn around and sell to other people. But even then it’s still stupid.
@cleek:
If that were the problem they could get a warrant. I don’t know if doctor-patient privilege covers your prescription history, but if an exemption needs to be made in the law to allow the cops to get a warrant for the prescription records of a suspected dealer then that’s a different argument and probably one worth having (though I suspect that they can already do that with a warrant).
This smacks more of the desire to do data mining on a large database of people to find suspicious activity, not to find evidence on a suspect that is already under suspicion.
Stillwater
@El Cid: Why should this just be limited to known prescription drug users? Why not just random home inspections of any home, particularly those in areas where there ever has been evidence of drug use?
Heh. I think the lack of evidence of drug use is actually pretty compelling evidence – that cops aren’t being thorough enough in finding all teh droogz. Step it up boys! There’s charges out there we need to find criminals for!
gene108
@sukabi:
What about the slob, who sells half their scrip of painkillers for $20 a pill on the corner?
I doubt the cops are going after a guy, who is on heavy doses of pain medication.
I think they would be looking for trends of someone, for example, who comes back in 15 days, after getting a 30 day prescription of pain killers filled, because he sold the other half for $20 a pill on the street corner.
Corner Stone
@gene108:
Damn son. You’re not even trying anymore.
Corner Stone
@Chad S:
Where does this line of thought end?
gene108
@NonyNony:
There is data mining involved, but instead of painkillers, substitute opiates or heroine and you have an idea of what’s being sold.
Opium, heroine and other opiates, if misused, are the most addictive drugs on the planet and will destroy communities. Think inner-city drug problems of the 1970’s and 19th century China.
Not all controlled substances are created equal. Legalizing marijuana makes sense, but opiates can become very dangerous very fast, because they are very addictive.
Stillwater
@El Tiburon: Or kill innocent kids or old people. Or whomever the fuck they want whenever they want for whatever reason they choose.
Cops recently shot a 19 old in the stomach 4 times on a noise complaint. Story gets a little complicated, what with the cops version of what happened being different from eye-witnesses. But who ya gonna believe?
gene108
@Corner Stone: What was I trying?
Ruckus
@Chad S:
Its not anywhere near a police state as long as any “request” or “demand” by the police can be challenged in a fair court room.
Let’s see how this goes.
1. Cops get baseless warrant from database.
2. Cops raid house. OK they don’t kill anyone or their pets.
3. Cops arrest everyone in the house on suspicion of drug use.
4. Cops seize the house and all possessions.
5. Suspected drug user has no money to hire lawyer because it has all been seized.
6. Suspected drug user gets public defender who passed the bar 2 weeks ago.
7. After 6 weeks in jail the public defender gets that hotshot job. New public defender who knows nothing of the case.
8. Court slams the door on suspects. They spend 4 years in jail for doing nothing wrong. They lose everything. They have a hard time getting a job because they have a record.
But they did get their day in court.
And the cops got their property to use to buy more equipment to keep fucking over innocent citizens.
And they had their day in court. Nice save by the courts.
And its OK because the legislature said so.
Shit. We are so fucked.
AlanDean
Where I live in California if a prescription is for 30 pills one-a-day, this prescription will not be renewed by the pharmacy before about day 25. They just will not let you have it.
Chad S
@Corner Stone: In a courtroom. If the state legislature passes it, and the governor signs it, the ACLU and doctor’s groups will sue. Please don’t try the “slippery slope” argument because there’s recourse here if you disagree with the law.
I agree with the alternative of having doctors check the database to see if someone is doctor shopping for pain pills or has an obscene amount of prescriptions.
Chad S
@Ruckus: If the warrant is baseless, the case will be thrown out. And if the local/state courts won’t do it for whatever paranoia you want to bring up, thats why we have federal appeals.
Ruckus
@Chad S:
I want you to be the first person on that list.
I want your house to be the first one raided.
I want you to realize that this is exactly what a police state is.
But you won’t.
The courts will protect us. Bullshit. Nothing else.
I’ll bet you believe in god as well. If so use that gray matter he/she gave you and think this all the way through. You may just save yourself more grief than you can imagine.
Stillwater
@Chad S: If the warrant is baseless, the case will be thrown out.
That means Ruckus’ point 8 no longer applies. But points 1-7 still stand: potentially weeks in jail on a ‘mistake’. What say you about that?
Ruckus
@Chad S:
How many lives in a federal appeals?
I wasn’t going to say this but you sound like a lawyer. Not a very smart one but a lawyer none the less. Do you really think that most people have the money and time to end up in federal court? Or defend themselves properly?
The system is supposed to protect it’s citizens, not fuck over their lives for nothing. Yea I know that’s not the way it works, but that’s the way it is supposed to work. Not for most people.
I guess that you consider the term collateral damage to be a part of normal life.
Uncle Clarence Thomas
I predict that the Po-lices will be found innocent of all charges.
Dracula
Reason #6013 why everyone should just STFO North Carolina.
Corner Stone
This was their pitch to the committee, according to the article:
How do they propose to know who the next accidental overdose is? Monitor Rx refill frequency? And how will they have the experience to determine what level is too frequent? And for what causes?
The two stated goals in the article are:
This move has nothing to do with public safety.
Dracula
Reason #6013 why everyone should just STFO North Carolina.
Ruckus
@Stillwater:
And remember no one got tazed, no pets died, the house was not set on fire by tear gas canisters, no one was shot, no one was beaten.
All things that our lovely cops have done with no repercussions. No court interventions, no DA filings on the cops, nothing.
Origuy
@gene108:
People take painkillers because they are in pain! A good friend of mine takes methadone pills to be able to function with the pain she has from an inherited disease, Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome. Yes, she’s addicted. When she moved to a place where she couldn’t get the pills, she had to go to a methadone clinic. When she couldn’t get it at all, she went through withdrawal. It was nasty. But she will take it for the rest of her life, not because she is addicted, but because she will have the pain the rest of her life!
The process she goes through to get the pills she needs is difficult. Despite her disability, she must go monthly to a specific doctor and get a written prescription. She must take it to a specific pharmacy and it cannot be filled before a specific day. If she violates any part of her pain contract, it can be revoked and she is SOL. Her doctor recently increased her dosage, after several years, because it was no longer as effective. However, the state medical insurance will not pay for the increased amount and she must pay out of pocket from her SSI.
Edit: Moderated? What did I say?
Dracula
Reason #6013 why everyone should just STFO North Carolina.
Mnemosyne
@Nimm:
That’s something that’s been bugging me: when did we decide as a society that police work should be easy and safe so therefore cops can do absolutely anything as long as they claim they were afraid that dachshund might bite them on the ankle and maybe — gasp! — draw blood!
Of course the cops want to be able to troll through a list of prescriptions to look for anything suspicious — they can sit at a desk and do it and not have to go out into the community and interact with people who might potentially be dangerous. They can go and arrest little old ladies who can’t fight back and not worry about getting shot. Of course they want to take the quick and easy route when doing their jobs. They’re human. What I don’t get is why so many people agree with them that they should never have to do anything dangerous, and that they’re justified in taking any action at all if something even potentially dangerous crops up.
Stillwater
@Chad S: Please don’t try the “slippery slope” argument because there’s recourse here if you disagree with the law.
This has to be snark. You’re saying that non-governmental groups can fight against a law passed by state or fed legislatures, so that proves we don’t live in an emerging police state?
Ruckus
@Mnemosyne:
Stupid is as stupid does?
Mnemosyne
@Chad S:
It’s a good thing that absolutely no innocent people in Tulia, Texas, spent years in jail because of false accusations and baseless warrants or you’d really look like a fucking idiot right about now.
Kirk Spencer
A police state is a great place to live — provide you’re part of the police.
I’d also like to note that concerns about this are part of why doctors tend to under-prescribe pain medication, especially for chronic suffers. (see here for summary.)
Finally, @Chad S: you are technically correct. However it ignores some realities. A house can be raided on a warrant later identified as baseless. At this time, however, the damages to the house and the lives cannot be recovered. The reason is sovereign immunity. Unless the plaintiffs can show the law enforcement officers and agency were knowingly acting with callous disregard of law and procedure, they’re protected from suits due to consequences of those acts. So the family won’t go to jail. However, they will have no recourse for their losses.
Add to this the current seizure laws. If the house is raided for drugs, it and all its contents can be seized by the police and then sold — and this can be done before the case goes to court (if it goes to court). The discovery the warrant was baseless does not require the return of any of the property in itself. Instead the property owner must file for recovery (not sue, see sovereign immunity above) with various offices and appeal when those filings are denied. The process is not always successful, and during the process the family has no alternatives for housing and property needs.
Putting it simply, if your house gets raided you’re screwed even if the raid was completely unfounded.
EGrise
@Chad S: Your faith in the fairness of our criminal justice
conveyor beltsystem and the majesty of the law is touching. Don’t let anyone call you naive, sir!Just Some Fuckhead
Maybe they could cross reference this list with a list of households with registered pets to ensure there’s always a dog to shoot.
Rick Massimo
You know what would help the police make a lot of arrests, some of whom undoubtedly would be dangerous people out to harm innocent citizens? A complete database of gun owners.
I’m sure that’s next, right?
There’s a lot of popular and pokitical support fo rthat, right?
Stillwater
@Mnemosyne: when did we decide as a society that police work should be easy and safe so therefore cops can do absolutely anything as long as they claim they were afraid that dachshund might bite them on the ankle and maybe—gasp!—draw blood!
Sometime closely after we had already become a police state.
JohnR
Define “good”.
celticdragonchick
Fuck me.
I am a chronic pain patient in Greensboro, NC. I am being treated by a pain management practice in High Point. Do I get to have a fucking SWAT team pay me a visit?
jcgrim
Cops having access to medical data bases must be a violation of FERPA.
DBrown
Uh, I am lost – this is already the law in 39 States. Are you just now finding out? All pain drugs are listed in a database by the Pharm you use and this database (with your name, DOB, adress, MD, etc) is fully available to any agency that requests it. Salon just wrote about this. NC is rather late trying to get on board – they have been the more restrain State compared to most.
Chad S
@Stillwater: You can’t be held in any jurisdiction for weeks without seeing a judge within 48 hours(72 in some places). If the cops are holding you without any evidence of illegal activity, you can ask for evidentiary hearing where they have to explain what proof they have to hold you on. You can also demand a bail hearing to force them to explain why they’re holding you to a judge. IAnd you have the right to appeal both hearing if you don’t like the outcomes. And if they slap you with a material witness order, they have to show real proof that you were a witness. And lastly, if you’re not charged within 24-72 hours(depending on the jurisdiction) hours, you can file a writ of habeus corpus. I’m sorry but these claims that you can be held for weeks on a bad warrant are just false. You get bail in every case unless you are suspected of 1st degree murder or kiddie porn.
@Mnemosyne: That was a rogue cop abusing the system for years by falsifying evidence. The fact that this one case stands out so prominently(and the Ramparts case in LA) shows how rare and improbable is it.
@Ruckus: Wow, are you pathetic resorting to asinine attacks like that. And for the record, I’ve had my car and home searched on a bad drug warrant in South Carolina. No one died, they didn’t bust down the door and while they were messy as they searched everything, they weren’t rude and didn’t have guns drawn. They didn’t find anything and no charges were filed. And I didn’t spend weeks in jail while the cops decided whether or not I was a drug kingpin. I’m not a lawyer, but everybody’s paranoia here is just not based in reality. If a search doesn’t find any drugs, there’s no seizures or charges filed(unless they find something else illegal). The cops just can’t take your house because they got bad info that you have drugs(and didn’t find any) and even then you can file an appeal in State/Federal court over it.
@Kirk Spencer: You’re wrong on most of your claims here. The cops can’t seize your property and sell it off while a case is pending. Even in a RICO case, no property can be sold off by the police until after the case is adjudicated. Sovereign immunity doesn’t offer any protections against civil litigation, but gives limited protection against criminal charges(you are right that you would have to show reckless disregard for criminal charges to stick).
Matt
The police should just go to hospice centers. Lots of people on lots of opiates there. I am sure my best friend would prefer to drown in his own blood in two weeks rather than overdose (accidentally or not) on morphine this weekend.
Chad S
@Stillwater: The police asking for an adjustment in laws approved by the elected legislature and signed into law by a governor is democracy, not a police state. The same police group just getting a subpoena and trying to force their way into the database sans evidence is much closer to a police state mentality(and thats happened, federal courts have quashed subpoenas in the midwest demanding to know who’s gotten abortions). A police state wouldn’t bother with warrants or subpoenas and just take the info without bothering.
And even if the law is passed, anyone can march into a courthouse and challenge it. Ask the ACLU how many of those they’ve won.
Ruckus
@DBrown:
It’s OK though Chad S will be on the case. His knowledge of how the court system really works is second to none. He will be able to turn all this around and make you safe again.
What?
You say he likes this law? No way a constitutional law scholar would let laws that take away personal freedoms like this stand. No way would he fight for laws that have no practical recourse for most citizens. No way would he consider ruining lives is more important than principals that have nothing to do with our safety or freedom.
I’m beginning to think that maybe the 2nd amendment is the most important. For the reason that it was considered and passed in the first place. Not to protect the state but to protect us from the state.
cleek
@merrinc:
depends on how much salable stuff they seize per trip, i suppose.
Chad S
@Ruckus: The judges are there to protect you. Whether you want to believe it or not, the judicial system is heavily skewed towards the rights of the defendant. And all your fears are just paranoia. Yes, can mistakes happen, but they’re very rare and everyone has a lot of protection from it in the form of the appeals process.
Carol
The cynic in me thinks that the Prison Industrial complex is looking for a substitute reason because pot is on the way of becoming legal. Take pot away, and there is little need for as many drug cops as there are now.
Chad S
@Stillwater: You can’t be held in any jurisdiction for weeks without seeing a judge within 48 hours(72 in some places). If the cops are holding you without any evidence of illegal activity, you can ask for evidentiary hearing where they have to explain what proof they have to hold you on. You can also demand a bail hearing to force them to explain why they’re holding you to a judge. IAnd you have the right to appeal both hearing if you don’t like the outcomes. And if they slap you with a material witness order, they have to show real proof that you were a witness. And lastly, if you’re not charged within 24-72 hours(depending on the jurisdiction) hours, you can file a writ of habeus corpus. I’m sorry but these claims that you can be held for weeks on a bad warrant are just false. You get bail in every case unless you are suspected of 1st degree murder or kiddie porn.
Chad S
@Mnemosyne: That was a rogue cop abusing the system for years by falsifying evidence. The fact that this one case stands out so prominently(and the Ramparts case in LA) shows how rare and improbable is it.
@Ruckus: Wow, are you pathetic resorting to asinine attacks like that. And for the record, I’ve had my car and home searched on a bad drug warrant in South Carolina. No one died, they didn’t bust down the door and while they were messy as they searched everything, they weren’t rude and didn’t have guns drawn. They didn’t find anything and no charges were filed. And I didn’t spend weeks(or anytime) in jail while the cops decided whether or not I was a drug kingpin. I’m not a lawyer, but everybody’s paranoia here is just not based in reality. If a search doesn’t find any drugs, there’s no seizures or charges filed(unless they find something else illegal). The cops just can’t take your house because they got bad info that you have drugs(and didn’t find any) and even then you can file an appeal in State/Federal court over it.
Chad S
@Kirk Spencer: You’re wrong on most of your claims here. The cops can’t seize your property and sell it off while a case is pending. Even in a RICO case, no property can be sold off by the police until after the case is adjudicated. Sovereign immunity doesn’t offer any protections against civil litigation, but gives limited protection against criminal charges(you are right that you would have to show reckless disregard for criminal charges to stick).
cleek
@NonyNony:
well, there are SQL queries for that, too. and they’re only slightly more complicated than the one i used above.
searching a database is trivial.
Mnemosyne
@Chad S:
No, it shows how difficult it is to prove you’re innocent when it’s your word against the cop’s. Heck, even when you have evidence on videotape of a cop shooting an unarmed, restrained man in the back it’s almost impossible to get a conviction.
Those people were only released in Tulia because someone else unrelated to that case figured out the cop was dirty. Otherwise, they’d still be rotting in jail because they had absolutely no way to prove they were innocent when there was a cop standing there saying they were guilty and it was their word against his.
Now you’re just plain lying.
sukabi
@gene108: I would think that’s something that either the Dr writing the prescription or the pharmacist would be aware of and could alert law enforcement or refuse to refill, instead of opening up entire databases to law enforcement to trawl around in….
plus there is enough actual crime that isn’t being investigated, I don’t think local law enforcement really needs to poke through databases to find “possible criminal activity” to fill their time.
Chad S
@Mnemosyne: I’m not saying that the system worked in Tulia, it clearly failed and the people who were framed deserve any lawsuit money that they can get. The solution, imo, is to have a federal law that any citizen-police or otherwise-can go to jail for a long time for framing anyone for a crime. Why the prosecutors didn’t bring that up in the OJ case(a cop can get the death penalty if they try and frame someone for a death penalty case in Cali) is beyond me.
And for your 2nd point, you should do some basic research. That case was vacated at SCOTUS because the cops appear to have returned the property. In any event, that doesn’t speak to my point that you can’t have your property sold off while the case is pending. If the cops think(and can prove to a judge at an evidentiary hearing) that your property was proceeds of illegal means, they can hold it as evidence pending the outcome of the case. If you’re acquitted they have to return it. Even if the property is 20,000 dollars in cash that you can’t explain how you got.
Ruckus
I can see that Chad S is a true believer.
Nothing ever goes wrong but when it does wonder courts will correct the issue.
Yes they sometimes do correct the problem. And not all cops are bad. And not all courts are bad. But there are too many mechanisms in the way for the AVERAGE citizen to get EFFECTIVE relief anymore. And there are too many instances of police misconduct and no relief whatsoever.
I may in fact be paranoid. There is no proof that this is true. But I’m not making up the evidence before us that the system has swung towards the state, away from the citizens of the state. And is continuing to swing farther and farther away towards the state.
Chad S
@Ruckus: You would have a better case if the cops in this example(NC sheriffs) weren’t asking the representatives of the people to change the law. That alone undermines your complaint.
And no, I’m not a true believer. I just don’t buy the fears being peddled here. The average citizen has plenty of recourse and protections from the police, even if there are some examples of the system failing(but eventually correcting itself).
Ruckus
@Chad S:
If you are not a true believer then you must be an idiot. I see no other choice.
Almost everyone here has given you examples of the police becoming stronger, less respective of citizens rights, asking for more power to find behavior that is not criminal and act like it is.
That. Is. A. Police State. What part of that don’t you get?
Are you a prosecutor? A DA? An ADA? A cop? A get tough on crime, lock up everyone sort?
This is my last post on this. Dad always said don’t argue with an idiot, they didn’t bring the tools for the job.
mark
Not to worry, the free market will solve this problem. All the people who don’t like this law will get up and move to another state. When tax revenue falls low enough they will realize the error of their ways and repeal the law. The invisible hand is never wrong. /snark
Alice
@Stillwater: His obit says you can mail donations directly to the funeral home at: Sossoman Funeral Home P.O. Box 2608, Morganton, N.C. 28680. They can also be reached at (828) 437-3211. Just say you want to give to Michael Sipes’ funeral expenses.
I asked the (very nice, very southern) lady who took my credit card and his family has nearly $5,000 in unpaid funeral expenses. She said a couple people have donated (I gave $10), but obviously it’s not enough.
It won’t bring Michael Sipes back, but it will help his family not go into debt trying to bury their son. I don’t know their financial situation, but they lived in a trailer park, so I can’t believe it was all that great.
Delia
@gene108:
Yes indeed. My brother runs the software systems at whatever company he’s working for at the moment. He suffers from chronic daily migraines which would incapacitate him without treatment. The docs/insurance companies won’t let you have enough tryptan drugs to manage that number of migraines. So his pain management clinic prescribes him Oxycontin and a tryptan. It allows him to be a productive functioning member of society rather than an invalid spending the rest of his life curled up in a darkened room.
I also suffer from chronic migraines but I can manage with a tryptan and fioricet, which is only caffeine, tylenol, and a barbituate. Same deal, though. Makes the difference between a relatively normal life and being an invalid. People using drugs for chronic pain aren’t getting high. They’re getting closer to regular life.
damn moderation. try again.
Chad S
@Ruckus: I’m not repeating myself and I’m not going to stoop to your level and personally attack you. If you want to believe that a sheriff’s group lobbying for a popularly elected legislature(and Governor) to make a change in a law is moving towards a police state, then there’s nothing that isn’t moving towards a police state to you. If you want to believe that this is 1984 or something, knock yourself out. Your opinions are pretty clearly showing a great immunity to facts and reality.
Delia
@gene108:
Yes indeed. My brother runs the software systems at whatever company he’s working for at the moment. He suffers from chronic daily migraines which would incapacitate him without treatment. The docs/insurance companies won’t let you have enough tryptan drugs to manage that number of migraines. So his pain management clinic prescribes him Oxi kontin and a tryptan. It allows him to be a productive functioning member of society rather than an invalid spending the rest of his life curled up in a darkened room.
I also suffer from chronic migraines but I can manage with a tryptan and fioricet, which is only caffeine, tylenol, and a barbituate. Same deal, though. Makes the difference between a relatively normal life and being an invalid. People using drugs for chronic pain aren’t getting high. They’re getting closer to regular life.
Delia
@gene108:
Many painkillers are basically some form of opiate or synthetic substance that mimics the effects of opiates.
Yes indeed. My brother runs the software systems at whatever company he’s working for at the moment. He suffers from chronic daily migraines which would incapacitate him without treatment. The docs/insurance companies won’t let you have enough tryptan drugs to manage that number of migraines. So his pain management clinic prescribes him Oxy ckntin and a tryptan. It allows him to be a productive functioning member of society rather than an invalid spending the rest of his life curled up in a darkened room.
I also suffer from chronic migraines but I can manage with a tryptan and fi oricet, which is only caffeine, tylenol, and a barbituate. Same deal, though. Makes the difference between a relatively normal life and being an invalid. People using drugs for chronic pain aren’t getting high. They’re getting closer to regular life.
Stillwater
@Chad S: But you’re interpreting the state of affairs exactly backwards. We have a state which passes increasingly draconian laws enhancing unchecked police powers which aren’t subject to any public or legislative review, often in direct violation of constitutional protections of privacy, property, search and seizure, probable cause. That is the definition of a police state (or an emerging police state).
That you can provide reasons for the increased extension of police powers, or that there still remains an in principle recourse to the law, doesn’t change the fact that the state is enhancing police powers.
lushboi
God gave you your pain for a reason (being a godless heathen liberal progressive cancer on society). Your are going against God’s will by trying to relieve your pain. Cops being the new guardians of Christian morality, are well within their rights to investigate and apply punishment in line with the new Inquisition.
sparky
@Kirk Spencer:
i’ve been thinking lately that there are so many people involved in the various flavors of authoriteh in the US, from police, to DHS to the military and its contractors, that perhaps, sooner than we think, the US will achieve full convergence and every resident of the US will be employed, somehow, by the national security state. talk about a full employment program….
Martin Gifford
@El Tiburon:
Yes. A point comes when you’re fighting so much you forgot what you’re fighting for.
yet another jeff
We are the media, and we’re here to naval gaze.
yet another jeff
Crap, wrong thread…
yet another jeff, returning +7