I’m seriously at a loss for words:
Dog bites man or man bites dog?
A conservative group in Missouri is picking up the backing of the Tea Party and Joe The Plumber in its quest to stop the Humane Society and other animal rights groups from passing “radical” anti-puppy mill legislation.
The measure, which can be read in full here, is called Proposition B or the “Puppy Mill Cruelty Prevention Act.” It aims to help eliminate the “3000 puppy mills” in Missouri that constitute “30% of all puppy mills in the U.S.,” according to Michael Markarian, the Chief Operating Officer of the Humane Society.
“This measure would provide common sense standards for the care of dogs,” he told TPM, including sufficient food and clean water, vet care, regular exercise, and adequate rest between breeding cycles, among other things. Markarian said the measure only applies to “commercial dog breeding facilities” that have more than 10 breeding females who they use for “producing puppies for the pet trade.”
Sounds pretty straightforward, no?
Well, according to the Alliance For Truth, the main force behind the anti-Prop B movement, there is something much more nefarious afoot (er, apaw) in the Humane Society’s measure. The Alliance For Truth claims that the Humane Society of the United States has a “radical agenda” and is “misleading the public with its intentions on Prop B. The society seeks only to raise the cost of breeding dogs, making it ever-more difficult for middle-class American families to be dog-owners.”
Vote Republican, we’re against the trains running on time at all, we’ll let your house burn down, and we absolutely hate the idea of treating puppies humanely.
What’s next? Which wingnut is going to come out in favor of nun rape and baby punching? Who will seriously issue a statement about skull fucking kittens?
Tell me this is all a joke and they aren’t going to pick up seats in November…
WyldPirate
John Cole sez:
No can do, bro.
The Teatards, rethugs and grouchy old white senior citizens–they want “Murica back for the real ‘Merkins”.
It’s all over now but the suffering due to all of teh stupid that is at pandemic levels today.
comrade scott's agenda of rage
I live about 3 miles from one. My wife works at the shelter in Columbia so as you can imagine, we’re working on this.
But this is Misery where the wingnuts are as batshit crazy as they come. The next person who tells me this state is “purple”, I’ll have em move next door to me and live here for 14 years. They’ll see how fucking red this place really is.
The puppy mill thing is all about PRAHPERTEEEEEEEEEEE! These people are truly nasty.
This is a state where the extreme right has pretty much had the legislative initiative for almost 15 years…and it shows. We give TX a run for her money in the Molly Ivins “National Laboratory for Bad Government”.
Zifnab
Capitalism, bitches! If we don’t mill the puppies in Missouri, we’re just going to outsource animal cruelty to foreign countries, amirite?
We can’t end animal cruelty now because it would cost us dozens of jobs!
Other excuses!
OC
I’m nonplussed. What can you say about something this ridiculous? They have officially lost their minds.
Kerr Lockhart
Well, they’re running Ken Buck, who wants to protect the rights of rapists, in and out of the family, to bring the children created by their sick, perverted crimes to term.
I suppose they figure the more genetically deformed, mentally challenged people in the world, the more Republican voters there will be.
JCT
I was *just* about to email this to you. That sweet beagle looks like our rescued puppy mill love, Trixie.
I swear to g_d, now *I* want to punch these guys– really, really hard.
J
I for one am proud to be a founding member of our local chapter of the SPCA–the Society for the Promotion of Cruelty to Animals. We’re also hoping to set up a Pro-Vivisection League. Membership inquiries welcome!
mikefromArlington
Maybe Democrats should go all pro-child labor and see if they can shift the dynamic.
Dennis SGMM
Those kittens are property. How dare the government prohibit the owners of said property from skull fucking it?
Suck It Up!
speaking of baby punching, wasn’t there a story of one Republican pol who voted against a bill concerning child abuse because of economic concerns?
not sure where to find the story again.
FoxinSocks
I’m so disgusted with these people. I guess they’ve never volunteered with a rescue, where we get puppy mill owners dumping their sick and starving animals all the time.
My mother has a rescued Yorkie from a puppy mill. The owners were starving his mother while she was pregnant to try and produce ‘teacup’ Yorkies that they were selling for $2,000 each. Well, the mother died of starvation shortly after birth and unfortunately, so did every other puppy in the litter except for the one my mother got. Local rescue groups called the police and the humane society, but I don’t know if there was much they could do under current law.
soonergrunt
As far as the house burning down part, I have minimal sympathy for the family involved.
The fire department doesn’t work for them, it belongs to the town, in whose limits that family does not live. The people in the town support the fire and police departments through their property taxes in addition to the sales taxes inside town limits.
Those who live outside the town have the option of buying fire protection from the town for $75/year. They choose or don’t choose to buy this protection, unlike the townies who pay significantly more than $75/year, and don’t get a choice. This guy actually said on one TV channel that he made the decision to not pay, based on his assumption that if there were a fire that the town fire department would come out and put the fire out anyway, since some of his neighbors had paid the fee. So he expected the townies to pay for his fire protection.
I live outside of any town here in Oklahoma County. My fire protection and police protection are provided by Norman, OK. I don’t pay the high Norman property taxes, but I do pay $600/year for fire and police protection because I’m not entitled to it and if I lived in Norman, I’d be paying a hell of a lot more each year for the same service.
JohnR
Ideology rules. There is no reality except the ideology, and anything bad that happens after we get our way is because the ideology wasn’t pure enough or some heretic interfered. Plus, you can’t make an omelet without breaking some eggs and some must suffer on the road to a greater idologically pure future. Once we get to Utopia, it will all be milk and cookies for everybody.
Oh, and as for the fire dept. thing: growing up, I lived outside of any incorporated town and we paid our fees to the volunteer Fire Dpet. to be covered. Not once, in all the time I lived there, did anyone not get a fire put out whether they paid or not. That would have been considered unbelievably mean-spirited. Different times, I suppose.
comrade scott's agenda of rage
@JCT:
I take a more violent, yet somehow appropriate to the place where I live approach: bullet to the back of the head and make the family pay for the cost of the bullet…just like they do it in China. And since the Chinese own our asses already…
The puppy mill close to us, they make sure they’re somewhat isolated, don’t advertise their presence but you can sure hear the dogs yowling in the morning come feedin’ time.
I call is Misery for a reason.
Svensker
It is man’s God-given right to abuse animals and it says so right there in the Bible. And if you try to stop animal abuse you are a fuggin anti-christian faggot loving sockalist.
Culture of Truth
First they came for the puppy killers, but because I was a not puppy killer, and in fact quite like puppies, and hate killing them or cruelty, and to be honest was leading the charge for common sense anti-cruelty laws, I did not speak up, (except in support).
Then they came for me, but that was ok, because I had all the pro-puppy, which is to say everybody who wasn’t heartless or fucking nuts, on my side.
bkny
this quote is one of the dumbfuckingest things i have ever read. astonishing in its stupidity:
“…The society seeks only to raise the cost of breeding dogs, making it ever-more difficult for middle-class American families to be dog-owners.”
wonkie
It’s just standard Republican/conservative behavior. All they care about is money. They try to hide their selfishness behind fearmongering, faux-victimization and the pretense of working to serve real Americans, in this case real Americans who want to pay hundreds of dollars to a pet store for a mixed breed “designer” pup that is sick from neglect and inbreeding.
In Pennsylvannia the R’s are trying to get a law through that will put investigations of cruelty to animals under the heading of domestic terrorism.
That’s your Republican party, folks.
p.a.
I believe the Founding Fathers, who were conservative Bible literalists, were strongly in favor of the rights of middle class Americans to own inexpensive, production-line, genetically compromised dogs. It’s in the 2nd Amendment, fuckers!
Bullsmith
Apparently seeing people’s houses burn down is deeply satisfying to conservatives. A morally righteous act, to be enjoyed in full. Puppy abuse is a good substitute only when there are no suffering poor people readily available.
You know, if these Christianists are actually right about Jesus being a violent vengeful motherfucker, they are going to get a very satisfying comeuppance in the afterlife. I’m confident in this cause I actually read the Jesus said parts of the book, which modern fundamentalism totally ignores.
Mike E
Ah, the promise that was once Rome…
Hunter Gathers
What can I say, Whitey’s done lost his ever loving mind.
Oh well, at least our media overlords will be enthralled by the impeachment circus that will kick off in January.
comrade scott's agenda of rage
Here’s what gets me “makes it difficult for middle class ‘Murka to become dog owners”?
Fucking go to the shelter. The adoption fee, which covers initial shots and spay/neutering, will run you $100. If you absolutely need a pure bred, chances are one will come thru the shelter eventually, or, hook up online with a breed specific rescue group.
Or, if you live around here, simply drive out into my neck of the woods and there’s plenty of dogs roaming around who need good homes to replace the shitty ones they have now.
Prop B has nothing to do with making it difficult to obtain a dog. Oh wait, I’m being logical with people who are the most illogical, dumbshits in the history of Homo Sapiens.
David Fud
@soonergrunt: I see your point, but it seems to me that it would be quite easy to have a $75/year or a $25,000 fee for putting out your home fire option. Put a lien on their house and make them pay it after the fire. But to destroy that kind of value is just beyond silliness in order to make a point.
My bet: they would have happily paid $25,000 to save their home from complete destruction, and both sides get what they want.
Morbo
@bkny: I’d like to hear their opinion on Michael Vick.
celticdragonchick
@OC:
Me too. I am running out of snark.
WereBear
@Morbo: I’m sure it’s something like “Man was just trying to pick up some extra money.”
Steaming Pile
@soonergrunt: The real fucked up part about the house burning down while the firemen sat around eating donuts bit was that fire protection was optional in the first place. This is what it took to draw attention to the folly of such a situation. That said, I agree with you that the homeowner was an asshat. I think his mortgage company would agree.
John Cole
@soonergrunt: Fuck them. There is no fire department in the nation, volunteer or paid, that does not receive significant funds from both state and federal resources.
Those firemen should be publicly flogged with a section of hose.
SpotWeld
Anti-puppy Mill Laws do need to be looked at closely since they can be knee-jerk “feel good” legislation that is more akin to “zero-tolerance” quotas that lump in the reputable breeders with the actual puppy mills.
If this law is as reported is sounds like it avoids that trap…
Mr Furious
@soonergrunt: In theory, you’re essentially right, but it should never have come to that. It should be the responsibility of whatever unincorporated town/county one lives in to arrange jurisdictional coverage for services such as fire and police. No doubt this arrangement stemmed from a dominance of Republican (non)governance and attitude from all parties concerned.
Also, it should be the legal and moral obligation of any fire department to respond to any fire possible and act accordingly. If that fire happened in the town proper, would they radio the assessor and double-check that all taxes were up to date? Responding to the call and watching a home burn to the ground is absolutely unacceptable. At the very least, there should be a protocol to deal with the fire in the moment, and have a punitive follow-up with the homeowner.
It’s also a matter of common sense that a fire is a risk for far more than the single home involved. the fire departments inaction put the entire neighborhood at risk, and actually caused a neighbor’s home to suffer damage.
The very least even the smallest government in a Teatard’s fantasy should be responsible is a fucking fire department that isn’t subscription-based.
jibeaux
I’m having this fantasy lately — settle down — that I am interviewed by the local news channel after voting. I explain that I always vote, because it is important to vote against Republicans. Asked to further enlighten the viewing public, I explain that it really is a scary world they live in — a world in which the gays are on the verge of ruining my marriage, where sharia law is overtaking the courthouse, where the president is planning to seize the means of production and turn it over to the workers, and where the government and BP conspired to deliberately cause the oil spill (as the guy running against my Congresscritter literally believes.)
I then explain that the good news is that this scary world is entirely imaginary. Like a bad dream, people CAN wake up from it if they choose, and then join the rest of us in reality to work towards solutions for actual problems.
Or, you know, you can work to protect animal abusers.
Culture of Truth
“Congref shall make no law regarding the freedom to starve your canine beast, nor abridge the freedom thereof.”
hilzoy
I love the part about how this is an attempt to raise the price of owning a dog — as though shelter dogs don’t exist, and no dogs ever leapt into John Cole’s car, free of charge, just to get a home.
If you read the actual bill, it’s actually pretty mild. It requires only things that any decent dog owner should do — food at least once a day, vet care at least once a year, plus prompt treatment of diseases, enough space to lie down and turn once in a circle, access to an indoor space that doesn’t get below 45 degrees or above 85 degrees, and that is cleaned at least once a day and has a solid floor, etc.
But even this is only required of owners who have more than ten dogs that they breed in order to sell the offspring. And no one gets to have more than 50 dogs that they breed in order to sell the offspring as pets, except for shelters, research facilities, etc.
Some threat to civilization as we know it.
r€nato
Laws prohibiting child labor are simply a liberal plot to raise the cost of goods and services, making it ever-more difficult for middle-class American families to buy cheap plastic crap from Wal-Mart.
Kryptik
@Bullsmith:
From the way Modern Christian Fundamentalists totally seem to ignore the Gospel and most of the New Testament aside from the rules excluding Gentiles from Jewish religious laws, I’ve become convinced of one thing:
These folks call themselves Good Christians, but are really just Bad Jews (and I mean, REALLY bad).
I mean, that’s the only explanation I can think of for why they cling to the Old Testament, vengeful god dogma they so adore, and totally ignore Jesus except to say they love him for that Christian Street Cred.
lacp
Horrible. I actually have to share an atmosphere with these creatures. Makes me want to grow gills and move into a sewer, so I can feel clean again.
Steve
@bkny: They forgot the small businesses. Somehow, I don’t know how, this proposal is a job-killing measure for small businesses.
The Raven
Once a faction makes policy of abusing the sick, elderly, and poor, and starts wars for political convenience, there’s not too much to scruple at. It is enough to make one believe in demonic intent.
Croak!
Rock
@Morbo:
I was just going to post that. If this were framed as a law to stop people like (ahem) Vick from hurting dogs I think there’d be a lot more support.
James K. Polk, Esq.
We can haz peak wingnut nao?
grandpajohn
Damn Missouri doesn’t have animal shelters where for a small fee compared to the price of one of those highly inbred bluebloods one can go and pick up a dog most any time, Even in medival SC where I live we can do that, or read the local paper and check the bulletin board at the local stores and find a freeby
Mnemosyne
@David Fud:
I’d take that bet. I guarantee you that the guy would have gone to court to argue that he shouldn’t have to pay the money for mere fire services.
I can’t condone what the firefighters did, but it sure got their point across.
r€nato
@Mr Furious: I’m completely torn on the Tennessee fire issue.
On the one hand, the bleeding heart liberal in me is outraged that the fire department didn’t simply put out the fire and bill the guy later.
(what would they have done if someone was inside the burning house? Let them burn???)
On the other hand, the pissed-off liberal in me is hoping this guy and other teatards and I-hate-gummint right-wingers learn a lesson from this… sometimes the socialist fire department is a good thing.
Loneoak
I have not yet had enough coffee this morning (West Coast here) to wrap my head around this. I am so dumbfounded.
Actually, there is probably not enough coffee in the world to wrap my head around this.
Here’s a link to the Missouri SPCA Anti-Cruelty Fund, which is what they designate for the Yes on Prop B campaign. Put it up top JC so we can money bomb them.
soonergrunt
@David Fud: I don’t disagree with your point, but there has to be a legal mechanism to do that. In the case in the incident, there isn’t any such mechanism. Also, this isn’t the first time this happened in that county. A house burned down in 2002 because the homeowner didn’t pay the fee from the nearby city (different city). After that, each of the cities sent notices out to the county residents of their policies and their agreements with the county government. There was a ballot initiative to create a rural fire service and fund it with a county property tax, but that was defeated at the poles.
This family didn’t end up in this situation unawares.
celticdragonchick
@John Cole:
The real kicker as I understand it was that the fire dept was called for a grass fire initially, and the fire had reached the structure by the time they got there. They already spent whatever money in time, resources etc in getting there and just watching the damned building burn.
The home owner beat the shit out of the fire chief the next day and is facing some serious charges. I would looove to be on the jury just so I could scoff at the FD and use my American right of Jury Nullification.
David
The Wingnuts will disingenuously liken this to their favorite bete noire “gun grabbing.” And the religious ones believe that animals are just here to be eaten or used and that to suggest otherwise is anti-Christian.
Kryptik
@James K. Polk, Esq.:
I think this whole issue proves there is no such thing as Peak Wingnut.
There is simply nothing, no issue, no project, that can’t be demagogued and made into ‘LIBURTEEEZ!! FREE MARRKIT!!’ showtrials for political points. At least, none that the media won’t somehow legitimize and dignify by covering and then wondering ‘what the other side thinks’, as if it was a he-said, she-said issue.
MattF
Radical. RRRRRaaaaddiiccccaaaallll. RRRRRRRRAAADDDIIIIICCCCCAAAALLLL!!!!!!!!!!!
r€nato
Long ago, in the early days of AM talk radio, I listened frequently for several years out of sheer morbid curiosity and amusement.
I learned that one of the rhetorical tricks of the local AM radio hatemongers, was that everything boiled down to, “IT WILL COST YOU MORE MONEY!!!” Every. Single. Thing.
Of course, it later occurred to me that, judging by their advertisements for Gold Bond Powder and get-rich-quick schemes, their audience was primarily narcissists and old geezers who were scared shitless that an extra buck or two here and there was all that separated them from a comfortable retirement and destitution.
West of the Cascades
@Steve: And guns. Something about guns.
Kryptik
@celticdragonchick:
Seriously, what happened to Municipally Funded Essential Services?
Oh, I forgot, taxes are evil, even if they go to little things like Fire and Police Depts., and hey, Private Fire Department Insurance is just sound libertarian thinking that we need more of, and if you don’t buy from a particular fire department, enjoy fetching roasted kitty out of the ashes the next day.
No, seriously, Colorado Springs is not supposed to be a fucking template for the rest of the country. Neither is this thoroughly stupid patch of Tennessee.
Culture of Truth
Oh it’s a pretty mild bill all right – that’s just what makes it so frightening! Liberals must think conservatives are stupid with all their compromising and reasonableness and pro-corporate policies, just like all those nice-sounding muslims — wingnuts know it’s all a clever cover to hide – very well, one must admit – their scary deadly radical agenda! Not falling for that one, no sir
soonergrunt
@Mnemosyne:
My point, as someone who lives in a similar circumstance, is that it wasn’t the city fire department’s responsibility to do anything. There’s nothing to condone on their part. The fault here lies 100% with the homeowner, who decided to be a free rider in the system and take his chances. I wonder if he had homeowner’s insurance? I do, and I get a discount (which doesn’t begin to cover the service fee) because I pay for fire and police protection.
MattF
OT, but… am I seeing things, or is the fifth capital ‘R’ in the second word of my previous comment a little larger than all the others?
bkny
@Loneoak: i’ve already downed 3 cups … believe me, it doesnt help.
The Raven
@John Cole: The other problem with the fire department that didn’t do its job is, if they have that little empathy, they are going to fail in their job of taking care of their paying customers, as indeed they did–a neighbor of the man who did not pay sustained significant damage. So, even paying citizens do not get adequate fire protection. Taxing to provide fire protection for all would have been more just, and provided better fire protection. This is a policy failure on the part of the county and state. It’s also a hint of what the low-tax world our right-wing radicals would create would be like: worse for everyone, not just the scofflaws.
bkny
@soonergrunt:
the homeowner was on countdown last nite and said that he does have homeowners insurance — but not enough to cover his entire loss.
BigHank53
Well, you know, those nast liberals like the idea, so it must be EVIL. Skree!
Yeah, they’ve lost their minds. These poor fuckers have been waiting for the End Days ever since ’74, abortion is still legal, the kids aren’t praying in school, there’s a goddamn black muslim in the White House, and Jesus still hasn’t come back.
Well, fine, they say. If the Apocalypse won’t show up….we’ll start it ourselves.
Kryptik
@r€nato:
The most laughable thing about that worldview is the whole emphasis on business and how great it is and how companies and corporations are just genius entities that we should all pattern ourselves after. Why? One word:
INVESTMENT. Apparently, investing is good when businesses do it and we need to cut all there taxes to the absolute bare minimum so they can do it, fuck if the bottom bracket assholes feel even more crunch. But when the Government wants to invest in something, when a City wants to invest in some municipal service, or even an individual can and should invest in something that’ll be long term better for them than the latest quick buck scheme peddled to them? OMG SOSHUIZMS WE CAN’T HAVE GOV’T INVESTING IN ANYTHING! CUT! CUT! CUT EVERYGODDAMN THING!
brantl
@soonergrunt:
Except that he offered to pay WHATEVER THEY ASKED, WHEN THEY SHOWED UP TO WATCH HIS HOUSE BURN DOWN, and they still did nothing.
Sorry, that’s really crap.
celticdragonchick
@Kryptik:
Read the acid commentary on this over at LGF. Charles seems to share both yours and my opinions on this.
I wonder what the hell these excuses for firemen would have done if there were a couple of kids inside.
“Oops! Sucks to be you! You didn’t pay! See you at the funeral…”
Culture of Truth
The answer is obvious. The puppies should pay a $75 Non-Abuse fee.
Bullsmith
@Kryptik:
Not good Christians but exceptionally bad Jews is a fascinating concept, as well as a good laugh, but it leaves out the all-important veneration of the book of revelations as both absolutely factual about the future and also possible to conclusively interpret.
At least it’s a simple religion to follow. Leviticus+Corinthians+Revelations pretty much covers it all.
dmsilev
My favorite bit from that article:
First, notice the slight of hand in pretending that “some Missouri breeders are puppy mills” and “some Missouri breeders are reputable” are contradictory statements. Then, note the Rovian “The Humane Society hates animals” statements. Finally, the Orwellian “Alliance for Truth” organization.
dms
celticdragonchick
@Culture of Truth:
We can end the thread right here. You win.
r€nato
@celticdragonchick: yeah, I’m not so sure I would nullify that, were I on that jury.
Fucker should look in the mirror and beat himself up, figuratively speaking. He can start with his right-wing “I don’t need no gummint services, I’m self-sufficient and can fend for myself” philosophy.
I mean, the fucker started the fire himself through his own stupidity… compounded by his stupidity of not paying the measly $75/year for fire services in the first place.
Of course, the last thing any of these people will ever do, is have the courage to consider whether their beliefs have led them astray.
This is, in a nutshell, representative of the entire health care debate. There are a lot of people out there who insist that they shouldn’t have to buy health insurance if they don’t want to… but sometimes shit happens. And when shit happens, these people assume – whether they say it or think it, or not – that someone will look after them anyway. They won’t be left to writhe helplessly in pain or die in the street because they didn’t pay for health insurance. That’s just plain selfish and narcissistic… and isn’t that the very essence of conservatism?
WereBear
@brantl: Well, yes, that sucks. But the fact that he got in this position over $75 a year makes him A Giant Asshole. Period.
cleek
@r€nato:
this is also the default response to any legislation which affects any business in any way that the business owners don’t like: it will cost consumers more !
you can probably hear that a dozen times a week on NPR.
Soprano2
The wingers in Missouri think the Puppy Mill Cruelty Prevention Act is just the first phase of regulation on all kinds of farm animals. They’re wrong, of course, but that’s what they think and is why they’re so strongly against it.
We have all kinds of shelters where people can find good dogs and cats to adopt. Every Saturday the Petsmart in my medium-sized city brings in a group from the region that has dogs and cats to adopt. So the crap about making it impossible for a middle-class family to afford a dog is bullshit. For Christ’s sake, I found a home for a kitten using Craigslist, and that was a free to good home ad. Besides, IMHO most of the best dogs are mutts, not purebreds.
Steve
@soonergrunt: It’s really dumb to have a system that lets people “opt out” of fire protection. Gee, let’s have a system where people can “opt out” of health care, and then if they get hit by a bus we just leave them in the street to die, and then people can write blog comments about how the fault was 100% theirs. That would be a great society to live in.
celticdragonchick
@r€nato:
Have you met the guy? Is that in any way an accurate representation of his worldview and belief structure??
I would think it more common for people to believe that they should not have to pay extra for municipal services they are conditioned through experience to expect are paid though taxes they already contribute.
Face
@John Cole: You cant buy life insurance with terminal cancer, you cant buy car insurance 3 seconds from plowing into a tree, you cant buy homeowners insurance in FL with a hurricane in the vicinity, so why the fuck should someone be able to buy the fire department ONLY when his house is on fire?
Set this moral hazard, and suddenly NOBODY pays a dime for the fire house (until they feel the heat, literally) and firefighters dont get paid. Not sure what’s so hard to understand about it.
Dont pay? Cant play.
soonergrunt
@John Cole:
And having grown up in small towns all my life, and my dad being a city manager, I can tell you that those federal funds almost never cover the cost of running the fire department or paying the firemen. They buy the extremely expensive equipment, but they don’t pay for the training, salaries, insurance and benefits. They don’t pay for the fuel. They don’t pay for all the maintenance on that hugely expensive, specialized equipment.
The taxpayers of the municipality that owns it, and the people who support the local fire districts that partner with them do.
This is the whole ‘collective action for the good of all’ idea that we keep going on about.
This homeowner had a very cheap path to ensure that this wouldn’t happen to him and his family. Name me one community in the country where yearly property taxes are about $75.00 and still has fire and police protection.
I pay the city of Norman, OK $600.00/year, which is less than half what my friends down the road pay because they’re actually in the city of Norman, and I get the same fire, police, and trash service. I have a well and septic so I don’t use municipal water, but I’m getting over, bigtime.
Fuck that guy. Seriously. Fuck him with the charred cinder of a wall stud from his house.
DecidedFenceSitter
@r€nato: Exactly – R[Euro]nato – when I first heard this story I was shocked that it happened – but as more details came out, I’m still shocked that it happened – while I may not like paying taxes for services, I at least understand the need – but this is most definitely a case of “this is precisely what you want to have happen” happening to them, not someone else.
I’m sorry for any non-decision makers who live in the home. They didn’t choose to suffer. For those who make the decisions regarding whether to pay or not? Well this is what they get for their choices.
Responsibility, it sucks.
soonergrunt
@Steve: And after about a year of that, we’d have socialized medicine.
John Cole
@Face: That was spoof, right. I can’t tell any more.
@soonergrunt: Way to miss the point. No, it does not cover all the costs (Pro-Tip- neither does the 75 dollar fee), but the reason we as citizens of the state and the nation give our tax dollars to fire departments is so they PUT OUT FUCKING FIRES.
I was a volunteer fireman for years. Anyone defending this idiocy has a damned screw loose.
Scuffletuffle
@Steve: See Soonergrunt at 46. There could have been a better system, but this person and many of his neighbors voted against it. How far should the govt go to save each of us from our own stupidity?
celticdragonchick
@Face:
That is exactly why libertarian approaches to municipal services like fire and police protection will not and cannot work. Eventually, somebody has to make brutal, life and death decisions to enforce the moral hazard problem..and you destroy the social fabric of your municipality/state/nation when you do it.
That is why those things MUST be universal coverage with no exceptions.
DecidedFenceSitter
@celticdragonchick: Except everyone in the county should be well aware as there was an issue on the referendum the LAST time this happened in 2002.
There are lots of fees I don’t like paying, but as they are the rules for the jurisdiction I pay my fees.
Jamie
As a liberal from Missouri, one of our biggest problem is that these idiots votes in very large numbers
r€nato
@celticdragonchick: From everything I’ve read, he was well-notified that he should not expect fire services if he didn’t pay for them. He also told a reporter that he thought he’d be covered anyway if something happened. That’s the very definition of a ‘free rider’. They have the ability to pay into the system, but they don’t want to for whatever reason – maybe so they can afford their Budweiser or Marlboro habit – yet still, they expect the benefits anyhow.
It’s also identical to the mindset of the typical anti-gummint right-winger. They rail against welfare while collecting Medicare benefits and Social Security. They rail against big government while enjoying the benefits of driving in a safe car equipped with seatbelts and airbags and built to withstand even a serious crash, on a federally-financed freeway system as well as the benefits of the socia1ist police department and socia1ist fire department and the socia1ist city-built-and-maintained streets. They proudly boast that they don’t need no nanny government while enjoying the benefits of clean water and air and (mostly) safe food at the supermarket… all thanks to government regulations. They scream about taxes on the money they earn in a safe workplace while working a federally-mandated 40 hour workweek where they are entitled to time-and-a-half overtime.
No, I don’t know this guy personally. But I will bet you $100 he’s a conservative.
DecidedFenceSitter
@celticdragonchick: Stupid fast moving conversations – and I totally agree with you, by the way, universal coverage for community investment projects is a GOOD thing – health, roads, fire, police, etc.
Unfortunately, these folks don’t seem to agree with us, and thus suffer.
soonergrunt
@brantl: So maybe the county could come up with a method by which the fire service could charge say, $20,000 on site. We’ll equip the fire trucks with credit card readers and cell-phone point of sale systems.
What happens when the guy’s credit card is denied?
Perhaps we should add a banker to the fire department who can approach the uncovered homeowner with a 2nd mortgage while the boys are hooking up the hoses.
Perhaps the stupid bastard can pay the $75 fucking dollars ahead of time.
Somebody gets in a car accident and doesn’t have auto insurance, we don’t go off on the Ford dealer for not giving the guy a new car, nor do we flame the insurance company he wasn’t paying.
Steve
@soonergrunt: Well then, we should have socialized fire departments any day now.
Linda Featheringill
@Bullsmith:
I agree.
Some of these people had better hope that Judgment Day is a myth. Otherwise, they are in deep trouble. IMHO.
Face
@John Cole: Nope, not spoof. It’s called personal responsibility, and he failed. And there were consequences.
Try this– intentially allow your life insurance policy to lapse for a few years, then watch what happens when your kin attempt to claim the money, by saying paying ti was the “moral thing to do”. Would you expect that company to pay out anyways? What the fuck is the diff?
For a former R, I cant believe you’ve jettisoned all of your personal responsibility mantra.
soonergrunt
@John Cole: You were a volunteer firefighter.
There is no volunteer fire service there. Maybe they should start one if they aren’t going to pay for service from the existing one.
And I got your point just fine. It happens to be wrong, but I got it.
celticdragonchick
@DecidedFenceSitter:
All fine and well, but our issue is what the hell the ‘firemen’ were doing since they already had responded and spent money to travel and watch a building burn that they could just as well deal with without extra expenditure…
Some folks here don’t seem to get that community mores are generally badly offended by the site of public servants doing nothing in the face of a disaster underway.
I am reminded of the bullshit Bill O’Reilly spouted about how the dead and stranded people in New Orleans deserved whatever they got, since they had warning to get out…and it was on them to get a better education and a better job if they were poor so that they could afford to get out.
I am seeing some of those sentiments here from people I respect a great deal and I am a bit mystified.
jibeaux
@celticdragonchick:
I certainly agree with that. In my mind, health care is a part of that, too. With the possible exception of Warren Buffett or Bill Gates and so forth, anything can happen to you that you simply won’t have the resources to cover. Since we’re trying to have a civilized society, I consider it unacceptable to allow someone to suffer, or die a preventable death, or to simply fail to treat something that is treatable, because that person doesn’t have the resources to cover it. Ergo, somehow we have to cover everyone with some sort of insurance, and I am using insurance in the loosest possible sense here as a defense against loss.
If you don’t want to insure your personal vehicle that has no liens against it against damage, that’s your decision. That’s an excellent place for individual choices about risk management.
But for heaven’s sakes, whose interest does it serve to have fires that could be put out burning people’s houses down?
Comrade Sock Puppet of the Great Satan
“That is exactly why libertarian approaches to municipal services like fire and police protection will not and cannot work. ”
Nonsense. There’s obviously a market for just-about-to-burn to the ground houses. If the government would just get out of the way, entrepreneurs could buy properties about to burn from their owners, put the blaze, and market efficiency would rule.*
*Actually practiced in Roman times – Marcus Crassus would buy your house from you and his firefighters would put the blaze out. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_firefighting)
Scuffletuffle
@Steve: Some of us already do.
Dork
It appears this guy opted out of giving money to the fire department.
Steve
@Face: If this was a story about the guy’s lapsed fire insurance policy refusing to pay out, not a single person would be talking about it. Why do you suppose people see a difference?
evinfuilt
@John Cole:
Did you get the bit where the family wasn’t upset at the Firefighters, just the chief, because they were following orders.
How has the poor Republican mentality combined Stockholm Syndrome with the Nuremberg defense.
I don’t care that they were told to let it burn, they became firefighters I assume to help people, but they turned off their compassion and decided it would be better to please their boss.
It’s not that hard to save the house (the right thing “compassionately” and economically) and then deal with the problem that they didn’t pay their stupid fee afterwards. That the firefighters had to respond to the spreading fire onto someones property who had paid should show them it would have been smarter to put the fire out and then charge the family.
The firefighters and of course their chief proved that they have no fiscal sense and no compassion what so ever. IE, perfect Compassionate Conservatives. And the people of that area seem to approve. I figure it will be the fiscal bottom line that will eventually change their attitude (if it ever happens) and nothing to do with having a heart.
celticdragonchick
@jibeaux:
Nicely put.
soonergrunt
@Steve: I do. I, and my neighbors all pay for fire service. Result–they come out here and put out the fires.
2th&nayle
@soonergrunt: I’m not sure where you’re getting your info, but I watched the Countdown interview last night and the guy said he simply forgot to pay his fee. It appeared to me that the homeowner accepted the responsibility for his oversight. Here’s the link.
celticdragonchick
@Comrade Sock Puppet of the Great Satan:
The invisible hand of the market needs to drop the gasoline can and the matches.
evinfuilt
@r€nato:
Sadly what they did learn is that the Government failed them again, vote Republican “this time it’ll work.”
Villago Delenda Est
The thing is, this guy willfully opted out of the “social contract” he now wants enforced for him.
Fuck him. He made his choice, he MILITANTLY made his choice, and now that he needs the fire protection, he regrets his asshattedness? Not enough, it seems. The lesson has not been learned. He’s being intellectually dishonest in retrospect about it.
He made a choice. Now he has to live with the consequences of that choice. It’s painfully obvious he learned NOTHING from this incident.
I say again, fuck him. As soonergrunt says:
WereBear
@2th&nayle: This is why this kind of thing can’t be voluntary. It can’t be a case of “You screwed up & your house burns down & endangers people who did pay.”
This is the fundamental part of Community some people don’t get.
Want more “freedom”? Shut up and live in the woods and get off MY internet.
NR
It really says a lot about how badly the Democrats have fucked up that the voters are seriously looking at these people as an alternative.
Mnemosyne
@celticdragonchick:
I’m sure he did decide that his taxes are already too high (after all, that’s what “tea party” supposedly stands for — Taxed Enough Already) and therefore he shouldn’t have to pay an extra $75 fee for fire protection. I’m sure he thought he could freeload on the system and if something bad happened, someone else would step in and rescue his ass. Unfortunately for him, that’s not what happened. I wouldn’t be surprised if it happened because there were three or four other non-payers that year who did get fire service in an emergency and the fire department was sick of it.
But the point is that this is the world that the tea partiers want to live in. It’s what they’re fighting for … as long as it happens to someone else, not to them. Once it happens to them, it’s a horrible miscarriage of justice.
jibeaux
@Steve:
Oh, I don’t know, because fire departments are supposed to be a public service that perform an important public safety role far beyond the financial peace of mind provided by insurance, like preventing people from dying in fires and preventing fires from spreading and these are things that are in the interest of all society? Do you not see a distinction between having renter’s or homeowner’s insurance to cover theft or loss and having a police force, either?
Brachiator
The Tea Party people are insane. But there is a method to their madness. They appear to want to brand any legislation they don’t like, or that they link with Democrats or liberals as “activist,” “extreme,” and hence “un-American.”
I don’t think most of these fools give a damn about dogs one way or another. They just want to pump up animus against Democrats and liberals.
That said, the TPM stuff is not journalism.
I have no idea what the real legislative background of this initiative might be, why the initiative places a 50 dog limit on breeders, or what the cost of implementation might be. I also wondered who the backers of the initiative might be (and I never assumed for a second that they were wild eyed “activists”). One news site gives the answer:
DecidedFenceSitter
@celticdragonchick: What were they doing there? Hopefully protecting the folks who had paid up their insurance – though apparently not all that well.
I get that they may be offended – however this is the result of the choices the community made. Both passively, in letting the current situation stand AND in 2002/3 when they rejected the proposal to start a county/rural fire system.
Finally, regarding the comparison human life != property. Had there been a person trapped in the house and no one had moved to save human life, I’d be pissed off. But at the risk of losing property? If you can’t pay 75/year, I don’t see why firefighters should risk their lives to save your stuff.
And why are you seeing it from us? Because several of us, I presume, are tired of playing Cassandra and saying, “If we do what you want, we are being extremely risky and inviting disastrous consequences.” And then watching the disaster happen. And get bailed out.
It is the same principle of being against the bailouts; but in that case, my support for the bailouts was predicated on the amount of collateral damage that not supporting them would cause; in this case, the collateral damage is fairly minimal, scorching on a neighbor’s house, no loss of life.
soonergrunt
@celticdragonchick: This isn’t about people who have no ability to get out of the way since their lifestyle in a city with public transportation and their limited resources tended to keep them from owning and maintaining private autos and there was no method to assist them, or a government that passed on its most basic responsibility to maintain and expand the levy system (public safety) for decades, both of which were the case in Katrina.
This is about a guy who passed on something he was able to do, knowing full well what the result could be, and then complaining because that result came to pass.
scav
Growing up, small town in the mountains in a national forest (maybe combo state and national, I forget — anywhere, the fed forestry service was in the village, state guys were at the bottom of the hill), volunteer dept. in village. House fire starts in village down the street from us, volunteers and villagers are fighting it (quick cut mom with proverbial garden hose), OK, we need a second alarm. Forestry guys three blocks away won’t roll, it’s a house. So, of course, have to call in the nearest city dept and then get the trucks including the tankers up 18 plus miles all uphill (consult basic physics text). By the time they make it, the fire has leapt the road (of course) and they drive right by it because they’re responding to a house fire. I forget how many acres and houses burnt on this particular fire, I was a kid, but we we did get to evacuate the village. Part that always made the story was that the forestry guys’ barracks caught on fire about 2 years later during one of the volunteers bi-weekly meetings and they had to call in the volunteers to fight it and the latter just just stood around for a good bit laughing their asses off. There was a nicely defined rectangular char mark the next day just south of the school playground.
Loooong story, no clear point except that these issues aren’t entirely new and piecemeal solutions don’t work that well. The volunteers rolled on everything. S&R, fires, wildland fires, vehicular, no matter.
Scuffletuffle
@2th&nayle: Easy, peasy excuse now…ain’t it.
Erik Vanderhoff
That would be Ronald Wilson Reagan, John.
Steve
@soonergrunt: If you have the choice to opt out, that’s not a socialized fire department, that’s an “every man for himself” system that I consider stupid.
Charge people taxes, give them basic services in return. That’s the social contract. If they don’t pay their taxes, send them to jail or do whatever you have to do, but don’t stand there watching their house burn down because they made a dumbass “choice.” What’s dumbass is having a system that allows people to opt out of basic services in the first place.
jibeaux
As a side note, I haven’t actually heard of communities opting in to a fee-for-fire-services model before. Apparently I live in a cave (they’re fireproof.)
If I were a mortgage lender or a homeowner’s insurance carrier and it were up to me, I would not do business in those markets as a matter of risk management, or at least would charge significantly more to cover the risk. Anyone know if this has been an unintended consequence of this free market idiocy?
evinfuilt
@Face:
This shouldn’t be a choice to not pay. By letting that house burn down (and damage a paying owners property) they lowered the value of all the homes in the area, significantly.
This would have been the chance to save the home and then push a bill through that fixed the situation. The bill should also go through without a public vote, or it’ll never pass. Saving homes from fire doesn’t need to be a public referendum.
soonergrunt
@2th&nayle: I’m getting my information from the local TV stories and newspaper articles that came out immediately after the fire, including the one where he said, on camera, “I didn’t pay the fee. I just expected they’d come out and put the fire out anyway.”
That he changes his story now is somewhat less than surprising.
Mnemosyne
@2th&nayle:
I don’t think MSNBC believed him since they kept putting that he “forgot” in scare quotes.
It’s not like this is a brand-new fee that was just imposed. It’s been this way for 20 years. Again, though I can’t condone what they did, I suspect the fire department got tired of people “forgetting” to pay the fee and then calling them anyway expecting to be helped.
Steve
@jibeaux: Why are you asking me these stupid questions?
celticdragonchick
@Mnemosyne:
As Jibeaux points out above, Fire and Rescue, as well as the police, are generally considered to be a public service.
You should not have to see if you are up to date on fees before somebody will put out a fire or rescue your wife and kids inside the burning building*.
*which fortunately was not the case this time.
They can bill him after the fact if the 75$ fee is going to be a major hangnail for the city.
cintibud
Some folks can’t see where this is going…
What if a person was truly destitute and made a choice between fire service and groceries?
If there was no government support for fire fighters, wouldn’t the cost be significantly more than 75 dollars?
Maybe fire departments in the future will offer different levels of services for different amounts. You know, a platinum subscription will get you unlimited fire fighting service, a gold plan means x amount of people and units will be dispatched for x amount of time, and a basic plan means the only action will be to save human lives.
soonergrunt
@Steve: Either way, I have fire and police protection.
DecidedFenceSitter
@cintibud: And Cintibud if that’s what the voter want, that’s what they’ll get. And I’ll be on the losing side of that vote, just as I would have been on the losing side of the 2002 vote.
And I sure as hell would have been paying my 75/year fire service fee. Or moved to a jurisdiction where I was sure that I had fire/police/ambulance/etc covered. Trash, I’m willing to live with as a household expense, but not fire service.
DecidedFenceSitter
@celticdragonchick: “…Fire and Rescue, as well as the police, are generally considered to be a public service.” (Emphasis added)
Not in this area. The community, as a whole, has decided that fire and rescue are not a public service, but a fee added service.
And this is what happens when the community makes that decision.
evinfuilt
@Steve:
That’s exactly right. That’s where this all failed, and this could have been used to bring it back. Not in a public referendum, but the Government should have just said “you know what, they voted us in to take care of this area, guess we better do that” and frickin do it.
Face
@Steve: I have no idea why people think the two are different.
This guy had what amounted to a $75 a year fire protection insurance. He declined to purchase it. What, then, entitles him to fire protection?
Mnemosyne
@celticdragonchick:
Let me put this very simply for you:
“Public service” does not mean “free service.” Fire trucks are not free. Firefighter salaries are not free. Hell, pumping water to hydrants is not free. Someone has to pay for all of that.
Conservatives are freeloaders at heart. They all want someone else to pay for what they want. They want all of us liberals to pay for police service and fire service and public parks and public schools that they can use but not have to put a dime towards keeping them running. Now they’re whining because it turns out the world doesn’t actually work that way and to have public services, the public needs to pool their money and pay for them.
Fuck this guy. Seriously. He thought he could freeload on the system — again — and he got caught. Now he’s whining because other people didn’t solve his problem for him and let him continue to pretend to be a rugged individualist who don’t need sissy shit like fire protection.
r€nato
@celticdragonchick: You are clearly a freedom-hating socia1ist.
jibeaux
@Steve:
I guess I missed the sarcasm in what you said and interpreted it straight and then responded sarcastically?
scav
@cintibud: Well, at least everything will become clear. There will be Platinum–, Gold–, Silver– and Mud– level citizens and one will have to flash the appropriate National ID card to get one’s purchased police, fire, medical or municipal services.
Scuffletuffle
@Steve: I didn’t see any “stupid questions” addressed to you, where are you seeing them?
r€nato
@evinfuilt:
Haven’t you heard? In AmeriKKKa, every man and woman is an island unto himself.
To think otherwise, is to be a freedumb-hating socia1ist.
r€nato
@cintibud: sssssh. Let’s not give them ideas.
celticdragonchick
@Face:
Basic human decency for starters…since paying for insurance (which deals with a problem after the fact) is not at all the same as fees for a basic service to hopefully keep the event from getting worse to begin with.
If the city wants to play it this way…make it 75$ a year and a couple thousand if they have to show up and put out your fire and you haven’t paid.
Brachiator
@soonergrunt:
Seems to me the rational thing to do would be to put the fire out and charge the guy for the service.
I don’t know where this guy’s house was in relation to other structures, but I know that often firefighters put a fire out so that it won’t spread. I don’t see that firefighters could know whether a fire that they let burn would always be contained to the home of a non-payer.
jibeaux
@DecidedFenceSitter:
And a profoundly stupid community decision, as about two and a half minutes of considering the matter in a strictly self-interested way should lead you inexorably to the conclusion that some people are not going to pay, therefore one or both of the following will happen: some people’s houses that are possibly next to yours or in the neighborhood you may try to sell your place in will burn down; or people will have their fires put out anyway, leading to a “death spiral” of increasingly fewer people paying increasingly higher fees.
Paying for basic public services with end-user fees is completely asinine and leads inevitably to absurd and inefficient results like preventable fires left unchecked.
r€nato
@Mnemosyne:
I see what you did there. You’re talking about TAXES, you freedom-hating socia1ist.
But seriously… this.
The conundrum I’m stuck on, is that it seems the BJ commenters are coming at this at the same angle as free-market fundamentalists. We’re both saying, ‘you got what you deserved you dumb fucker.’
But their conclusion would be, ‘that’s the way things should be,’ while we’re saying, ‘that’s NOT how things should be; you should not have the option of not having fire protection. Enjoy the consequences of your free-market philosophy, you dumb fucker. Maybe you should re-consider your premises.’
I’m *still* conflicted about how this should have been handled. I guess I’m so frustrated and angry about the free market fundamentalists and teabaggers, I’m leaning to the side of “let’s heighten the contradictions so that people see that it doesn’t work.”
celticdragonchick
@Mnemosyne:
As Cole already pointed out…we do pay for it through local, state and federal taxes. FD’s do get support from various avenues, and it didn’t cost them a damned thing extra to actually be fucking decent and put out the fire since they were already on the site. Whatever they want to charge him afterwards…they can haggle out between themselves.
Scuffletuffle
@jibeaux: Not to mention, how do you collect?
Montysano
@WyldPirate:
Last night I got dragged into a FB slap fight with some high school friends. The issue? Obama = Marxist. “Give me one example”, I sez. The answer? The financial reg bill. Apparently, it’s the prime example of class warfare.
Brawndo has electrolytes!
Shinobi
I am from St. Louis. My grandmother lived all her life in an area about 45 minutes outside of town. Over the the course of her lifetime owned upwards of 30 dogs that had been dumped in the country side and adopted her. We also had several cats that were acquired in a similar manner. There are many animal shelters there that are full to bursting. (My favorite is the Open Door Animal Sanctuary, which is the no kill shelter in the country that my family has worked with. It often deals with animals who are dumped by the roadside.)
This whole thing sickens me.
When you’re party is siding against puppies, you have some serious issues.
DecidedFenceSitter
@jibeaux: Amen. I agree entirely with your statement.
However, it is what the voters want, and elected the politicians who would give it to them. Unfortunately, those are the breaks of a democracy, even if it is not a direct democracy – representation just means you have insulation from going against your constituents’ desires until the next election.
geg6
@soonergrunt:
Do you not have volunteer fire departments in rural areas there? Seriously?
Not a single fire fighter gets paid (other than a minimal travel expense) to fight fires. People in the community volunteer to do it, raise money (through fish fries, bingo, and the like) and write grants to fund it, and the local communities outside my municipality pay nominal fees to use their services (in addition to their community members volunteering and helping in the fund raising). No one is required to pay a fee in those other towns. This is a small borough surrounded by rural townships and unincorporated rural areas. Many of these firefighters purchase some of their own equipment. WTF is wrong with the Real Merkins there in TN and OK that they can’t seem to manage this sort of community spirit and organizing?
Oh, wait…
Face
They tried. It failed. You make it sound so easy; just raise taxes to pay for the FD! As if any of these strongly Republican rural folk would ever vote for a tax hike for a fire truck. Which is why so many of us here realize that only $75 a year is a bargain to get fire protection. Even that was too much for this guy. And he got screwed for being a fucking stupid dumbass.
Ash Can
@Erik Vanderhoff:
I was thinking the same thing. And any number of wingnuts have come out in favor of baby-punching. Corporal-punishment enthusiasts, anyone? John, you’re an inspiration and a mensch with regard to your socio-political evolution, but you still have a little catch-up work to do here and there. (Then again, despite what Christine O’Donnell thinks, evolution doesn’t happen overnight. ;) )
jibeaux
@Montysano:
Listen to the first part of the This American Life podcast called “Crybabies”. I know, TAL isn’t going to sway any “conservatives”. But it will really, really, make you want to drive to lower Manhattan and just start punching guys. This is what happens when we let frat boys run everything.
r€nato
@Brachiator:
except that, in the past they’ve found it very difficult to collect. I think the figure was about half of the folks did not pay.
It’s funny how glibertarians and free-market fundamentalists insist that the definition of ‘freedom’ includes the freedom not to pay for fire services or health insurance or Social Security… but it sure doesn’t include the freedom not to pay for the military.
Silver Owl
Today’s conservatives actually remind me of the Ferengi only not as funny.
“In theory, every business transaction that a Ferengi makes is governed by two hundred eighty-five Rules of Acquisition, though the rules themselves give the Ferengi license to cheat, steal, and bend the truth to suit their needs. ”
No way would I voluntarily live in a community lead by today’s conservative, they can’t stand anything living except themselves.
Ed Marshall
@Erik Vanderhoff:
Good catch.
Paris
Stated by one of the TPers. Really.
Church Lady
@John Cole: He didn’t pay tax dollars. He lived outside the city limits, the fire department was a city entity, paid for by city taxes and, as a county resident, living outside the city limits, wasn’t covered, unless he coughed up $75 a year for protection. He chose not to pay, and now he’s paying big time. He even said, on the news clip, that he didn’t pay because he knew his neighbors had, and figured that the fire department would take care of him anyway.
The firemen only came out when the fire spread to the neighbor’s property. They put out that fire and protected the paying customer’s property, since he had paid for that protection.
Yeah, it sucks for the guy whose house burned down, but I bet everyone else in that area of the county now starts paying for fire protection.
r€nato
@Shinobi: it’s easy to side against puppies. Out of sight, out of mind. If it doesn’t happen to me, I don’t give a shit. Fuck you buddy, I got mine.
That’s how they side against a government mandate that insurers must cover those with pre-existing conditions. That’s how they side against gay marriage and repeal of DADT and laws extending the full protection of Constitutional rights to gays and lesbians. That’s how they side with piratization of Social Security.
Tsulagi
@John Cole:
I’ll get out a screwdriver to check for one, but I agree with sooner on this. The guy had plenty of opportunity and time to protect his property in advance. He chose not to. His call. And this was his property, not a life.
But I do have sympathy. If I were in his shoes having made a really, really stupid error in judgment not having paid $75 that could have prevented our house burning down, I wouldn’t be getting any with the SO for a long, long time.
celticdragonchick
@r€nato:
Heh!
I used to be as reactionary right wing as they come.
Real life experience got in the way of that.
Anyways…
Gotta go get ready for class. Today we get to bust our skulls on refraction/reflection indices of minerals.
daveNYC
I understand the moral hazard aspect here, but there are different ways to deal with that hazard.
1) Let the house burn down.
or
2) Put out the fire and charge the guy.
Letting the house burn down is the more destructive choice. If it were an issue involving someone ducking the health insurance mandate would people be saying ‘let him die’?
And if the fire department only started fighting the fire once it had damaged the property of a paying customer, then the department needs to get it’s ass sued.
Villago Delenda Est
@celticdragonchick:
Ah, but this is the rub.
The philosophy of the glibertarians denies that such a thing even exists. Altruism is for chumps. You should be selfish, selfish, selfish in ways that would make a three year old screaming “MINE!” blush.
Punchy
Pretty sure the local FD doesnt want to be going to court to sue the homeowner every time they put out a fire and, once out, the guy refuses/”forgets” to pay.
Cuz I’m sure a guy who thinks $75 a year is too much is suddenly gunna have $2000 sitting around his smoldering remains to pay the firefighters.
r€nato
@Church Lady: And that is why not paying for fire protection, should not be an option. It should be included in property taxes, or sewer taxes, or some other sort of mandatory levy.
There really is a role for government to protect people from their own stupidity or unpredictable catastrophe. Thirty years’ worth of right-wing brainwashing has convinced far too many people that this is exactly the same as ‘nanny-state government that tries to wipe your nose for you’.
geg6
@geg6:
Dammit, the first sentence in the second paragraph should say:
Not a single fire fighter in my small community…
WereBear
You know, back on SNL’s first year, when Buck Henry said, “They’re going to bus communists into your neighborhood to kill puppies!” it was friggin’ satire.
r€nato
@celticdragonchick: speaking of which… I’m stunned at the 180 which Charles Johnson at LGF has made.
So, there’s hope for people brainwashed by the right-wing propaganda machine, to break free and deprogram themselves.
Johnson used to be one of the most snarling, angry, rage-ridden far right-wingers in the blogosphere. Now I read his blog every now and then, and he seems so… reasonable. He may not be a bleeding-heart lefty, but he sure does clearly see the raging stupidity and heartlessness of today’s right-wing.
Villago Delenda Est
@r€nato:
The thing is, these are the same people who think Steven Colbert is on their side.
I’m not sure how far past 11 you have to turn the contradictions knob to get through to these dumbasses.
GVG
Sooner
Fires spread. In this story a neighbor’s house was damaged. What if it was the neighbor’s kid that was burned or died? Bigger fires don’t stop when the firemen wave a magic wand. Its also immoral as a society to set up a situation where the fire department is on a regular basis going to have to figure out if they should act when people’s lives are in danger. what if the forgetful homeowner was still inside? Or someone was, and the flames were roaring, there MIGHT be someone inside and it wasn’t nessesarily the person who owned and hadn’t paid? What if the records were wrong or misread in a rush or the computers were down and the owner HAD paid? Lawsuits against municipalities are money thrown away and if the town has insurance against that kind of thing which would be wiser, since I think mistakes are human, well that is an added cost. How the heck has this law held up anyway? I mean what if you are a renter? How do you know if the owner/owners/corperation has paid? Do they actualy shut down businesses that don’t pay? If they don’t, then they are letting all kinds of people be at risk, if they do, then its not voluntary.
I just can’t overlook the risks of any fire spreading. People are crazy for allowing this situation to exist. Its too risky even if you do pay and I bet their insurance costs in that area are higher even if they don’t recognize it. I suspect loans for businesses would cost more too as an investment elsewhere would be less risky so you have to pay more to get a loan. Its just dumb. The whole area which has voted for this situation is who is to blame and they are hurting themselves including the smaller set of voters who had sense to vote against it.
Certain activities have become conventionally government responsibilities because they are innately flawed as private enterprises. Police, courts and IMO firefighting need to be government and funded by REQUIRED taxes.
Sure the homeowner may be a fool but he is a very forseeable fool whose actions are inevitably going to kill other non fools if the fire department really does keep not putting out some fires. The fire department is only really useful if it always puts out the fires and the political leadership of the town needs to get a grip and pass taxes.
John Cole
@Church Lady: I know you’ve taken “Missing the Point” to unparalleled heights and are pretty much a professional at it, but I can GUARANTEE that the fire department receives state and federal funds on top of city tax dollars. Are you claiming this guy didn’t pay his state and federal taxes, as well?
And after reading you and all your callous bullshit for several years, I really want to know- what kind of fucked up church do you go to? What do they teach there?
Justin
The municipality of South Fulton, who funds the fire department through municipal property taxes, offers coverage outside it’s funding zone for a fee. Turns out that 75% of its calls go outside that zone. Of the ones who call up and say “I didn’t pay the fee, but I’ll pay anything now!”, they collect after-the-fact costs from less than 50% of them.
It’s not just that the Crannicks of the county move out there to avoid paying taxes that support a fire department, and voted down measures for the county to fund it properly, and opt out of the fee for individual protection. It’s that, the majority of the time, when they say “I’ll pay anything now!”, they’re lying.
Count me in the ‘screw loose’ brigade.
John Cole
Anyone defending this can go join a Reason wankfest as far as I am concerned. Not only should the fire department have put out the fire, but there should be no god damned option to “opt in” or “opt out” of fire protection. It should be mandated. It is a public necessity.
Anyone sitting here spewing “he had chances to protect his property” is playing right into the glibertarian hand. Enjoy your private roads and private police soon, too. Or do they already get to opt out of police in that area? I mean, if it works for fire departments, it only stands to reason the cops wouldn’t stop a rape in progress if you hadn’t paid their levy.
Idiots.
Southern Beale
Humane Society is a big buggaboo with conservatives, you know. Rick Berman’s lobbyist group has been on a major anti-Humane Society campaign via their astroturf group “Center For Consumer Freedom.” It’s funded by the fast food industry and Big Ag. See, PETA and the Humane Society are a big embarassment to this group, what with their hidden videos of downer cattle at the slaughterhouse and migrant workers torturing chickens at the Tyson plant.
So, anyone wondering why the Tea Party would even give a shit, once again: they’re just doing the work of their corporate overlords.
Cliff
@Suck It Up!:
well, since nobody else bothered to answer here are the child abusing Rethuglicans who Voted to Let Schoolchildren Be Held Down, Tied Up, and Put in Solitary Confinement
Most House Republicans Vote to Let Schoolchildren Be Held Down, Tied Up, and Put in Solitary Confinement
Video posted of Johnson’s testimony against abuse bill
Bill Brady is FOR Child Abuse and Against Seat Belts
Phil Roe on his vote against protecting school children
etc…
r€nato
@Punchy: nailed it.
If they have to collect after-the-fact, that means they have to pay for and fund a collections department. And attorneys to go after the assholes who refuse to pay the annual fee, beg the firefighters to put out the fire when their home does catch fire, then renege on their responsibility to follow through.
Which raises costs for everyone.
We pay taxes in order to fund community services like roads, schools, police and fire protection because sometimes – believe it or not, conservatives – that is the most efficient way to go about it.
DecidedFenceSitter
@John Cole: So what about the rest of us who seem to fall into “It is a stupid thing that this is what they wanted, but it is what they wanted, so now they get to live by those rules?”
Rather than this strawman that you’ve created of the vast majority of us – we aren’t happy that this happen, we’d prefer it not to have happened; however, this is the logical end result of the choices they’ve made – not choices I would have made, but the ones they made knowing the consequences.
John Cole
If even here, idiots are arguing about whether fire service and police service are something you can opt out of, the battle is over. The war is over. Go drown yourself in the bathtub with the rest of the government.
DecidedFenceSitter
@John Cole: They shouldn’t be, but in this community they are. That is the reality of the situation.
There’s a normative and a descriptive discussion going on here, and it seems like you are confusing which is which.
Nutella
@daveNYC:
Yes. SATSQ.
Justin
@John Cole:
Absolutely. It should be that way. And Gene Crannick and his ilk defeated the attempt to make it that way.
I wouldn’t live in such a place, because basic services like that should be covered by general tax revenue. I would actively move out of that county, in fact.
And when the map of rapes and fires showed a distinct correlation with who paid and who didn’t, I would think to myself “you morons got what you chose to have.”
It doesn’t play into libertarian hands to see Gene Crannick suffer a glibertarian fate. It’s an object lesson in why Reasonoids are morons.
r€nato
@John Cole:
I’m with you on that… but seeing as the residents of this area apparently had the opportunity in 2002 to create a fire district and turned it down… maybe some ‘tough love’ is necessary for them to see that that was a pretty dumb decision.
And yes, I know that that makes me sound like a glibertarian. But the practical fact is that there is probably no higher authority that can force their hand on that, possibly short of action by the state legislature to mandate that all non-incorporated areas in a county must have some sort of fire district.
Paris
Kathleen Parker wrote a column last week bemoaning all these liberal rules that she has to follow now that she lives in NYC. Know what really pissed her off? No candles, including birthday ones, in her building. She states at the end that she’s going to go light her birthday candle just to show them. It never crosses her mind why you may not want to allow candles in a high rise building in the middle of a densely populated city. I really would like to light her on fire even if there are rules against it. So I guess me and her have something in common.
Silver Owl
When a fire department stands by and watches a house burn because of an immature and ignorant ideology about the word “tax”, it’s a bad neighborhood to live in.
It wouldn’t surprise me if the insurance company refused to cover damages on the neighbors house either because had the fire fighters put the originating fire out properly, their property would have suffered no damage.
The whole situation is based on a 3 stooges mentality.
mslarry
@jibeaux:
ugh… just listened to the TAL you referenced… those assholes they interviewed at the bar? wanted to beat them about the face and neck with a bat. infuriated doesn’t begin to cover how it made me feel.
Church Lady
@John Cole: Tennessee doesn’t have a state income tax. As to federal income taxes, who knows. Maybe the IRS could tell you. Given the guy was too cheap to pay a lousy $75 a year fire protection fee from a city that he did not reside in (the city was under absolutely no obligation to even make the service available to rural county residents, btw), I wouldn’t be surprised if he hasn’t paid his federal income tax.
Not getting the point, yourself, is the fact that Obion County does not have a fire department. Rural County residents were offered the chance to have a County fire department, and pay the taxes for it, but voted that option down. The city, as a public service, offered to provide protection to people within 5 miles of the city for a $75 a year fee. Cheapskate decided he didn’t need to pay, because his neighbors did and he figured that the fire department would take care of him anyway. Guess he figured wrong, huh?
Soonergrunt, and others, are taking the same position. He made a choice and it didn’t work out for him.
Paris
@r€nato: How do they get a mortgage in an area with no fire district? The bank is going to require insurance. I can’t imagine you’re going to get insurance where the chances of your house burning down are pretty good.
Justin
@John Cole:
No one here is arguing that it should be that way. We’re observing that they made it that way, and are now suffering the consequences.
If you insist on smashing your fingers with a hammer, I’m not going to feel tremendous pity when you complain about your broken fingers, and I’m not going to accept any guilt for not taking the hammer away from you.
r€nato
@John Cole: I don’t think anyone here – save Church Lady – is arguing that one should be able to opt out of fire and police protection.
The argument is whether or not this fool and others like him, should suffer the consequences of that philosophy in order to understand that they should not be able to opt out of fire and police protection.
The fire department has proven through past experience that they can’t collect most of the money owed, when they put out fires for people who didn’t pay for protection.
The good citizens believe that fire protection should be optional. Maybe that’s why some of them moved there.
If the fire department keeps putting out fires for people who did not pay for that service and have proven that they likely will not pay even after the service was provided… how will things ever change, short of some sort of deus ex machina which does not exist in the real world?
Tsulagi
@John Cole:
I’ll go with that. Should be rolled into your property taxes.
Damn, and here I thought I was going with that personal responsibility and accountability thingy. Who knew that was a glibertarian trap?
Well, maybe there wasn’t a solid 60 votes among those volunteer firefighters to put out that fire. There was nothing they could do.
r€nato
@Paris: good question, I dunno.
I guess mobile homes are plenty inexpensive to insure in the first place.
Or… since these people don’t see the cost of not having fire protection in their insurance bill, maybe they believe they’re getting away with something for nothing. I don’t know.
Ash Can
@John Cole: THIS. I’m sick and goddamned tired of having to settle for a lower standard of living in the United States of America because too goddamned many of my fellow citizens can’t grow the goddamned hell up about the tax/public-services dynamic. Anti-tax subversives and their brain-dead followers are making this once-great nation a goddamned banana republic. THAT’S what really makes me crazy about this whole pathetic situation.
Nations that tax their citizens and spend the money on public services, beginning with the essential ones, have higher standards of living. Period. As someone around here would say, it ain’t rocket surgery.
El Cid
The reason public fire fighting was launched by municipalities is that cities got tired of entire city blocks or districts caught on fire when firefighters wouldn’t put out fire for those who didn’t show the special brick or other identifier that the dweller had paid the private fire fighters a fee.
On this case, I don’t think you could do this, but if a person hasn’t paid into the FD system and gets FD services, there should be a fine levied and paid to the courts, just like other fines. This probably couldn’t be passed either. Maybe it’s something a town manager or city government could do on its own.
2th&nayle
@soonergrunt: Holy Cow! This is most aggressive response I’ve ever gotten from a comment that, I thought, was fairly innocuous. I think it’s a damn sad thing that the man’s house burned down, but I certainly wasn’t throwing rocks at the local FD. I live in a fairly rural community that is heavily wooded and believe me when a wildfire breaks out here, it’s all hands on deck, at least until the local volunteers arrive. We had the same “let it burn” situation happen here in the early 80’s and got the same nationwide news coverage that pretty much castigated the local fire chief’s decision not to fight the fire. The locals here didn’t much appreciate it, and rallied to support the chief who kept his position for a couple of decades afterward. That said, it’s my understanding that the policy was changed so that the fire department would respond to all calls, but would charge the homeowner $1,000.00 if they weren’t “on the list”. In a perfect world everyone would pay their annual fee and it wouldn’t be an issue at all, but until then, it seems to be viable solution.
Juicebagger
Durrrrrr, ‘moral hazard’ is great excuse for fucking lots of people.
r€nato
@Justin: I would hope you would at least take the guy to see a doctor, seeing as he wouldn’t be able to operate a vehicle.
DecidedFenceSitter
@Ash Can: But that’s how a democracy works, even a representational one like ours. The people get what the people want, assuming the number of people is large enough.
The only alternatives, as the minority, is to move somewhere where you are in the majority, change minds, or suffer.
El Cid
@Ash Can: I’m tired of all these god-damned taxes I got to pay.
And why ain’t the government doing more for all the problems I’m complaining about?
AnnaN
A month ago, on basic errand running and being about the town, I must have exclaimed five times, “What the FUCK is wrong with that person?” after witnessing some dumb-assed, lack of common sense or just plain obliviousness behavior that would have resulted in injury if not for luck or someone else paying attention and avoiding the mishap.
I was struck by how many times I had said it and it occurred to me that this is the new norm. This is American Culture. People being morons. People who should know better. People who, even in the absence of critical thought, should have a modicum of common sense.
So now, my husband and I have a new catch-phrase for when we witness the new norm of numbnuts:
“It’s just people being people.”
Justin
@r€nato:
I would, but I wouldn’t be quiet about what a moron he was.
Scuffletuffle
@John Cole: Not what we’re arguing John, it’s what teabaggers want and this asshole opted for. We’re just mulling over the consequences to him of his own choices.
Scott P.
That doesn’t make the result just, other than in a perverted sense. If a guy jaywalks and gets hit by a bus, yes it is his fault, but no, it isn’t a punishment appropriate to the offense. And if the bus driver decides not to hit the brakes because “oh, he’s jaywalking, he deserves what he gets,” he’s a monster.
Firefighters in New York respond to fires in Canada, and vice versa. Should they take the attitude “fuck them, they haven’t paid taxes over here” as well?
Ash Can
@DecidedFenceSitter: Of course that’s the way democracy works. And ain’t it a kick in the head that so many other democracies around the world do it better than we do?
Citizen Alan
I suppose from a “moral” perspective, the guy deserved to see his house burn down for refusing to pay the $75, so from those who argue from a strictly “moral rights” position, I see your point. I just think that $75 is such a ridiculously low sum to quibble over, and the damage to the local community in the form of reduced property values that results from letting a home burn to the ground is vastly more than $75. If I was this guy’s neighbor, I’d have offered to pay the $75 on his behalf if I knew he had refused to do so in order to protect the value of my own property.
Obviously, the correct solution is to say: (1) pay $75 (or whatever) up front for fire protection, (2) if you haven’t paid, we’ll put out your fire anyway and bill you for the cost of putting it out, (3) if you don’t pay the bill, we’ll get a judicial lien on the property. Someone suggested that fire departments wouldn’t want to sue over matters like this. They wouldn’t — the city itself would sue, and city attorneys are fairly efficient at getting judicial liens in place.
middlewest
Are people really so stupid they don’t know about SMOKE? Y’now the stuff that fire turns everything into and kills more people and destroys more property than any fire ever could?
Hope everyone has fun breathing in whatever shit your non-paying neighbor left in his house to burn. Could be a septic tank! Could be a meth lab! It’s like a game! And hey, at least some wingnut learned his lesson, amiright? Now why is little Johnny coughing?
Seriously, all the citizens in this place should sue these fake-ass “firefighters” for allowing smoke damage to their community.
DecidedFenceSitter
@Scott P.: Where in Canada do they respond? Just over the border? In British Columbia? Has the community decided that this is a good and worthwhile expense for the NY fire fighters?
It is that last one that is key – the community standards. I’m with the NY folks, let’s take care of our neighbors, and they’ll take care of us, and build a community.
Unfortunately, that’s not how it works down in TN.
DecidedFenceSitter
@Ash Can: Yes it is, so what are you going to do to deal with that reality – move, change minds, or suffer?
Binzinerator
@soonergrunt:
These free-market don’t-wanna-pay taxes assholes believe they are still going to get the same services, protection and benefits and they are counting on other people paying for it.
They’re deadbeats, freeloaders and chiselers.
r€nato
Out west here… when there’s a really huge fire, whether it’s a forest wildfire or an urban fire that’s really, really huge, fire departments from several various cities will respond.
City of Phoenix even has a crack search-and-rescue team which has traveled to foreign countries to aid the search for victims buried in earthquake rubble.
But I guess that’s because we’re a bunch of freedumb-hating socia1ists out here in Arizona.
Just sayin’…
Maybe these Tennessee residents need to experience the folly of their fire-protection-optional policy, so that they change it.
Maybe America needs to actually elect some teabaggers, in order to experience the folly of voting for those incompetent, not-ready-for-prime-time morons.
Brachiator
@r€nato:
RE: Seems to me the rational thing to do would be to put the fire out and charge the guy for the service.
Actually, a 50% payback doesn’t sound that bad to me. And part of the issue here appears to be that the person lives outside the city limits, and the county decided to make the $75 fee voluntary. Maybe this is what has to be looked at.
But this goes beyond simple reductions of “glibertarians.” There are always people who want to be free riders. In California, some cities have cut back on their firefighting staff, knowing that county and state agencies will come out if there is a serious brush fire. And individual homeowners deliberately go without fire insurance, figuring that they can fall back on FEMA assistance and federal disaster designations if there is a wide spread fire. Or they deliberately under-insure and then cry to the state insurance commissioner for relief.
And there are isolationist libertarians who foolishly believe that if the US just stays out of everyone’s business, then there would be no need for a military or, worse, think that an all mercenary army might work in a pinch.
r€nato
@Binzinerator: and that’s what pisses me off so much about these people. They don’t think anything will happen to them… until it does.
They and their mentality are, in large part, what’s holding this country back.
The other day, that wonderful Christian minister and presidential wannabe Mike Huckabee compared people with pre-existing conditions to an already-burned-down house. “Why on Earth should anyone insure someone who’s been irresponsible enough to get sick?”
This kind of thinking is a cancer on our society*.
*believing in the concept of such a thing as "society" is likely more freedumb-hating socia1ism.fasteddie9318
@Church Lady:
They have a state sales tax, you disingenuous sack of shit.
Bulworth
And the anti anti’s are led by Phylis Shafly, the teabaggers, and Joe the Plumber.
You can’t make this stuff up.
YellowJournalism
If they’re going to go with this idea of paying for the service, then they should charge something close to the actual cost of putting out the fire to anyone who doesn’t pay the 75 bucks a year. While I have no sympathy for the homeowner, I think the fire should have been put out because of the danger it posed to the paying customers and the fire fighters themselves if it had gotten out of hand by not putting it out at the non-payer’s house in the first place.
Charge the non-payer a buttload. Put a lien on their property if they don’t pay. Garnish their wages. Get a payment plan. But don’t just let the house burn down while damage is being done to those that pay. Even if the fire never spread to the other houses, the heat damage alone is expensive to fix.
ETA: And people who support being lax on the puppy mills are the reason the saying “mean people suck” came into existence. If they’re linking it to farming, it makes me wonder what the farmers are doing that they’re afraid of having to feed puppies once a day.
El Cid
@r€nato: I always found it amusing when the supposedly brilliant Thatcher said the same “There is no such thing as society.”
Which is a profoundly dumb view of how words work. Ideally she might have said that there is no such thing as a superorganism with particular desires and needs often labeled “society”.
But this notion that there is a difference between the ordinary use of the term ‘society’ as an abbreviated version of some collection of individuals within some notional barriers of identification — i.e., ‘the UK’ — and simply saying ‘a number of individuals’ is utter obvious nonsense.
Jay C
Back to Missouri for a moment:
One thing I noticed seems to be left out in the discussion of the proposed anti-puppy-mill initiative is that, as is usual with right-wing moronity, they try to turn the actual facts of the situation completely around: stressing the potential negative effects on the buyers (neatly classed as “middle-class Americans”) – when ISTM, the main burden of complying with the proposed new regulations is going to fall on the sellers.
I wonder how the socioeconomic demographics of puppy-mill breeders in Missouri falls out? My guess would be that the bulk of them are likely to be financially-strapped lower-middle/working-class/rural/exurban types who see dog-breeding as a relatively cheap way to make a few extra bucks – and are probably prone to view the extra regulations (which will cost them more) as just more needless nanny-state red tape hoked up by busybody liberal do-gooders motivated principally by visceral hatred for Free Enterprise and Real Americans.
Which, of course, leads to reflexive dismissal: even at the cost of disassociation from reality (“The Humane Society hates animals“)
Of course, this is the typical (?archetypal?) argument of the “small-business”-oriented antiregulation movement (i.e. redneck teabaggers): the easy/automatic assumption that the “small business” ought to be utterly exempt from any and all taxes and/or regulations because said entrepreneurs rely so much more on the potential income; any other factors be damned. IOW, selfishness and greed bolstered by prejudice. The American Way…..
John Cole
@fasteddie9318: That’s just how ChurchLady rolls. Love how she inserted “income” in there…
Nutella
This TN fire story reminds me of the 1993 floods in the midwest. Jim Talent was then congressman for the newer suburbs of St Louis and liked to explain to the losers and welfare queens back inside the city limits how they were doing everything wrong and should be pulling themselves up by their bootstraps like his suburban constituents.
His district included the shiny new town of Chesterfield where the residents of the new suburbs got a property tax bill with a separate line for the agricultural levee, that is, the levee that provided a small amount of protection to the soy bean fields that had been there before the suburb was built.
So the ’93 floods came and swept over the agricultural levees and into all the new suburban buildings.
What did Talent and his constituents say? Obviously, they demanded that the federal government cover their losses and build them a new and better levee. After all, nearby Earth City had not suffered the same damage due to the big and expensive levee the Earth City taxpayers had built, so clearly Chesterfield was entitled to the same protections.
I’m sure all those same people are now demanding that the government stay out of their Medicare.
PeakVT
The mistake here is the firemen decided to take on the administrative function of billing. Just as we don’t want paramedics checking to see if you have insurance before administering help, we don’t want firemen checking for payment before putting out a fire. They responded, they were there, they should have put it out. I am sure there is a lot of resentment of people in the surrounding county on the part of firemen in that department, and this incident was a reflection of that. But nonetheless they should have put it out, because that’s their job.
Besides, how fucked up would it be for the firemen to have not put out the fire, and then found out the homeowner had paid, and the billing department made a mistake?
eemom
@John Cole:
Stealin’ that.
Dee Loralei
@DecidedFenceSitter: He said on Olbermann that 3 dogs and one kitten perished. I count that as loss of life.
Church Lady
@r€nato: Actually, I think Obion County should have its own fire department and charge the appropriate taxes to residents to cover the cost. I live in a city, located in a county, and pay taxes to both entities. My city taxes help provide for the fire protection for my house. My county taxes help provide for fire protection for those living in unincorporated parts of the county.
Unfortunately, the residents of Obion County don’t agree with the idea of providing a fire department to cover all citizens. They voted the idea down. Not much can be done by the government when the voters have spoken, and speak they did. Maybe now some of the ones that voted against having a county fire department will change their minds. Either that, or a lot more people within five miles of South Fulton’s city limits will be more willing to pony up that $75.
I looked up fire coverage for that particular county. There are only 7 fire stations in the entire county. Four are in incorporated cities/towns and three are volunteer departments. They are concentrated in the northern part of the county, while the rest of the county is unprotected. I guess that you can’t save some people from their own stupidity. Like the guy that refused to pay $75 a year to protect his house.
Citizen_X
@John Cole:
I agree %100. Unfortunately, we are in the midst of a vast flood of belligerent political stupidity, where “public necessity” is considered the equivalent of a communist beachhead. So how do you get millions of dittoheads to accept the necessity of public services? Maybe a few cheap-ass teabagging motherfuckers gotta watch they houses burn before they learn something.
I don’t think that that reality is actually good, I just don’t see the political path from “It should be mandated” to “it’s a public service that everyone pays for,” everywhere in this country. I mean, Jesus, just look at the shitfit healthcare reform unleashed.
ruemara
@soonergrunt:
Just an FYI, I get your point, but 1. the guy did pay his taxes, and 2. He didn’t willingly not pay the fee, he forgot to pay the fee, and offered to cover the costs if they would just fight the fire, and 3. His pets were in that fire and were killed in it.
FlipYrWhig
I’m flabbergasted that people here think that the fire department did the right thing or, alternatively, that the guy reaped what he sowed, so fuck him. This is pretty much the definition of “public” or “society.” We help each other collectively. Yes, even the ungrateful ones. Yes, even the “free riders.” Put out the fire, then send him a bill. Or put out the fire, then ding him for negligence and fine him through the justice system. To talk about how we can’t let him get away with this… well, to me that just sounds like the “culture of dependency” and “personal responsibility” stuff rightwingers do their peacock strut about. Not for me, thanks.
Mnemosyne
@ruemara:
He said several days later that he “forgot” to pay the fee. On the scene, at the time, he said he didn’t pay it because he thought the fire department would come put it out anyway since his neighbors had protection. I’m not surprised that he changed his claim once he realized he wasn’t getting a lot of sympathy by admitting he deliberately didn’t pay.
I feel sorry for the animals that died — they didn’t deserve to be owned by someone so irresponsible.
General Stuck
@YellowJournalism: I want to cosign your comment. The fire should have been put out for safety sake and the idiot homeowner should get a fat “services rendered” check for their trouble.
Shinobi
@Citizen Alan:
This is EXACTLY why things like Fire, Police, Roads, and other items are considered public goods that need to be paid for by taxes. Because in theory everyone can benefit from them even if they refuse to pay. And there is also a cost to refusing to service for those who do not pay. (Providing crime prevention for only part of a community would harm the entire community, same with fire protection.)
This is pretty much THE EXACT REASON that taxes exist. To pay for things that have to be provided community wide for the protection of the community.
Sometimes the government’s job is to protect people from their own greediness. SURE you don’t want to pay taxes to fund a fire department for your county. Who would, but what you WANT and what you SHOULD DO are often not the same.
At some point there needs to be an adult in charge.
Binzinerator
@Citizen Alan:
Speaking of quibbling while your house burns down, this reminds me of a racket the Roman Marcus Crassus had. If a house caught fire in Rome he’d show up with hundreds of his clients-cum-firefighters and offer to put out the fire — if, of course, the owner agreed to sell his house on Crassus’ terms.
Unsurprisingly Crassus became one of the wealthiest men in history.
[BTW if you like Roman history, I highly recommend Mike Duncan’s podcast “The History of Rome“. The episode mentioning the above-mentioned tactic of Crassus is #35, titled Crassus and Pompey.]
Mnemosyne
@FlipYrWhig:
Except that we don’t have that kind of society anymore. There’s no such thing as “the public good” or collective action. People really do seem to think that public services are completely free and the government is just stealing their money when they collect taxes. How many people here in California are simultaneously screaming about their neighborhood firehouses being closed due to budget cuts and that their taxes are too high? People really think that the magical public services fairy will appear and save them.
This guy got the kind of society that he wanted. Now he’s realizing too late that the society he wanted sucks if you end up on the losing side. I wish he had come to that realization before he lost his house and all of his pets, but it is what it is. I’m not usually a “heighten the contradictions” person, but I’m really tired of being told that if I want public schools/public libraries/police protection, I should pay for it by myself so my neighbors can use for free and call me a sucker for paying.
Justin
@ruemara: His whole interview with Olbermann was bullshit. He claimed to have forgotten to pay the fee after already going on record saying that he deliberately didn’t pay the fee because he thought they’d put the fire out anyway. The fire also took hours to spread from the shed to the house, so there was plenty of time to rescue the pets.
Kysen
One of the more disturbing aspects of the abundance of puppy mills in Missouri, IMO, is the number of them that are run by Mennonites.
I don’t know if the same problem exists in Amish country (Pennsylvania) or not, but, the vast majority of the mills I know of in MO are run by Mennonite or other ‘plain’ groups who see the puppies as no more than cattle meant to be used/abused at their whim….see them as nothing more than another money crop for the farm. (< —-holy run-on sentence, Batman!)
(to head off criticism: NO…I am not saying that ALL plain folk are like that, or that they all treat animals as such)
(dunno how I hosed up and posted this in the wrong thread, but, here it is in its proper place)
Mnemosyne
@Shinobi:
Exactly. It’s that idiotic “Two Santa Clauses” idea that the Republicans promulgated that’s coming back to bite us in the ass. It was a lie that you could simultaneously lower taxes and increase services, but that’s what everyone’s inner 5-year-old wanted to hear, so that’s what we got, and now we have to pay the consequences.
Pardon me if I’m feeling a little schadenfreude now that the people who have told me for years that I’m an idiot for paying my fair share of taxes are starting to see the results of not paying their fair share.
pseudonymous in nc
Looking at the city council minutes, they included an insurance agent who said that the fact the city had established a “rural protection area” outside its limits made county homes insurable even if they weren’t signed up, but that the city was also asked to provide a list of subscribers to calibrate the premiums.
You’re assuming that state law and the justice system is going to work here, but we’re talking about a state that doesn’t require counties to have active fire service, whether public or volunteer. Could the city FD get a lien on county property? Dunno. What I do know is that more people live in the unincorporated county than its cities, but the cities are meant to run the fire departments. I also know that the cities’ fire departments wanted to join forces and operate throughout the county, but the county government (and voters) wouldn’t foot the bill.
Also worth thinking about: whether the city fire department is covered for injury or death when working outside its jurisdiction. Not a given.
That’s a Mutual Aid agreement. Take away the “and vice versa”, and it’s not. Obion County took away the “and vice versa”.
Villago Delenda Est
@FlipYrWhig:
We told these idiots that this is what they were getting. They wouldn’t listen to the “socialists”, the “atheists”, the “far left”.
Now they reap what they’ve sown, have not learned a damn thing, and we’re supposed to be sympathetic?
No way.
Punchy
@John Cole: Shorter Cole — Only suckers actually pay for their fire protection. Also, why does the bank keep making me pay for my goddamn house every month? It’s morally wrong to take that money from my childrens’ mouths!
Mnemosyne
To bring it back to the original topic, the people who vote against Proposition B in Missouri will be the exact same people who will complain that the government should do something when the puppy they get from a puppy mill needs expensive surgery to fix its hip dysplasia. And they will never, ever see the connection between their voting down the proposition that would have given the government the power to “do something” and the problem they now have.
Cliff
you guys don’t get it, if it was a teabagger, they wouldn’t pay the tax, but when the teabagger fire dept showed up and stared at it burning down they would of executed a free market takeover with all those guns they were stockpiling, and when the shooting was over they would appropriate the equipment and put out the fire all by their lonesome.
.blah.
Church Lady
@fasteddie9318:
http://troy.troytn.com/Obion%20County%20Fire%20Department%20Presentation%20Presented%20to%20the%20County%20Commission.pdf
For your reading pleasure. Please note the part in section one where it states that the fire departments do not receive state funds.
WereBear
@Mnemosyne: Sadly, true.
And their protest will be centered around “I got ripped off!” And not about the dog.
soonergrunt
@Brachiator:
I don’t disagree with you in principle, but in action. I don’t have a problem with sending the guy a bill after the fact, but if there is no legal mechanism to do this, you know as well as I do that people won’t pay. Should the county government pass an ordinance requiring people to pay the fire-department? Well, of course they should. It is, as others have mentioned here, part of the social contract. But since this county didn’t do this, the voters of this county seem to support the system as it exists, then they have to deal with the consequences.
r€nato
@El Cid:
it’s really not that long of a stroll from, “Mandatory taxes for fire departments are socia1ism, if you don’t pay then let your house burn down, not my problem,” to, “Mandatory health insurance is socia1ism, if you don’t buy it then you can just die in the street, not my problem.”
And then from there to denying that there is any such thing as ‘society’ or the dreaded ‘social compact’, an even shorter stroll.
What the teatards and glibertarians and New Republic are doing, is consciously destroying the very idea of civilization.
Cavemen banded together in the first place, because the many working together were able to do things that individual cavemen could not. For instance, bring down a mammoth so that everyone could have food for a while. Defend against saber-tooth tigers. Et cetera.
In our modern, industrialized world, we all pay taxes so that we can all have libraries to use, streets to drive on, schools to educate our children, police to protect us from violence, and firemen to protect us from fires and other dangers.
Now these modern-day Neanderthals want to return us to a time where everyone fends for themselves. Which really means a return to feudal society (or worse), where the only ones who prosper – hell, the only ones who are able to experience life as anything other than endless misery and fear of capricious violence and disaster – are the already-wealthy.
They’d rather have a large piece of a small pie, than a smaller piece of a larger pie.
Agoraphobic Kleptomaniac
All of these comments about how this guy deserved it because he didn’t pay a fee and using it as a political point is gross.
Reminds me of all the xtians using the recent suicide to prove gays are unhappy and sick.
Scott P.
There is a time and a place to sit in moral judgment of your fellow man. When his house is burning down is not it.
Yes, because sympathy isn’t something that should need to be earned. It should be extended to every man and woman on the planet for no other reason than they are fellow human beings.
If we are to deny sympathy to everyone who has contributed to their present situation, who among us can truly be confident of receiving sympathy when we are most in need?
artem1s
@soonergrunt:
It occurs to me that this is exactly what public/government run hospitals go through on a daily basis only they can’t legally deny care in emergency situations.
so do firefighters get to decide not to treat the patient because they don’t have insurance or because they don’t have the up front money?
I think all of the arguments above point to the only solution being universal coverage for a government run system.
Cause you don’t haggle over the price of the hose when your neighbors house is burning down. . . only we do and will again.
also, what does the fire crew do if there is a 5 alarm fire downtown while they are on call out in the boonies for some asshat who moved out to neverland just so he didn’t have to pay taxes.
seems to me that the real issue here is urban sprawl vs learning to live with your neighbors and oh yea, paying for trash pick up instead of burning your leaves.
but that’s a whole other argument.
soonergrunt
@r€nato:
I don’t think it should work the way it works in Tennessee, but that IS the way it works there, and this is what happens when it works that way. Luckily we live in a democracy (of sorts) and the people in that region can choose to change the way it works. Or not.
eemom
has there ever been a more depressing thread? Human beings fighting to perpetuate animal suffering? Firefighters watching houses burn and then folks arguing about whether that’s a good thing or not?
I need a pill of some kind.
El Cid
@r€nato: Ziggurats were built by lone Galtian heroes without the use of any government or public resources.
Cliff
@Cliff:
…And then the teabagger police will help only the teabagger firemen who paid by arresting/taking out the teabagger homeowner … so what do the teabag cops charge the teabag firemen who didn’t pay their fee upon the arrest? maybe they stake ’em out and arrest ’em for stuff to collect fines .. blah blah etc etc .. or, maybe, just maybe IT’S A FUCKING STUPID IDEA!!!!!
Punchy
While I understand the sentiment, it’s just feel-good bullshit in reality. Trying paying firefighters’ wages with “sympathy”. Try buying paint, hoses, and helmets with empathy. At some point, the county needs those ducats from the rural folk to cover some costs.
I’m just stunned that so many peeps dont believe in personal responsibility and consequences for irresponsible behavior.
soonergrunt
@geg6:
Most of the communities outside the metro have Rural Fire Districts, Emergency Medical Services Authority, and so on.
We have EMSA for ambulance service, and they’ll transport you whether or not you’ve paid the $60.00 yearly fee. If you paid the fee, the transport if free. If you didn’t it could cost hundreds if not thousands of dollars.
It’s just here in the OKC metro, and specifically here in Cleveland County that we have this weird fee-for-service thing. In neighboring Oklahoma County, the county has a deal with OKC, Moore, and Yukon that they’ll put out your fire and bill you later on pain of a lien against your property. Cleveland County will probably move this way in the next couple of years, after the county government finally realizes once and for all that they really are Norman’s bitch, and this incident may make that happen sooner.
PeakVT
I’ve never understand why people burn their leaves in the first place. Most people who do seem to also have a bit of woods to dump them in. And if they don’t, they could fence off 4 or 6 feet over by the shed and dump them in there. The leaves will be compost in a year or so.
Brachiator
@soonergrunt:
RE:Seems to me the rational thing to do would be to put the fire out and charge the guy for the service.
The problem with this as a general principle is that you can’t be sure that the damage will be limited to a single structure.
And there is no such thing as “consequences” following naturally and unutterably, as though the tail end of some Newtonian equation. The voters support a stupid system. Both the law and the guy who decided not to pay the $75 assessment are asses.
What if 20 or 30 people decided not to pay? At a certain point, letting fires continue because you are going to “punish” people who don’t pay will put the larger community at risk.
And that would be a hell of a consequence to pay.
FlipYrWhig
@Mnemosyne:
I feel that loss myself, but I don’t think this is the right place to make a symbolic stand about it.
Ripley
Seems that many here have used this issue as a way of getting in touch with their inner whitey. Good luck with that. Fuckers.
FlipYrWhig
@Villago Delenda Est:
Extend sympathy, maybe not. Decency, yes.
r€nato
@Scott P.: Well, there is the fact that property is inherently different than life.
After all, under the laws of just about any state that I’m aware of, one cannot use deadly force to protect property; only one’s life or the lives of others.
I am thinking the more apt analogy might be, someone who rails against gays and the homosexual agenda and funding for AIDS research… and then turns out to have picked up HIV from anonymous men’s room encounters.
Would I have sympathy for such a person? Yes… but grudgingly so.
Do I have sympathy for this man whose house burned down? Yes. Even though he was stupid and careless by not paying the $75, which was quite a reasonable fee. If I were the fire chief on-scene, would I have put out his fire? Yes.
What angers me is the notion that fire coverage should be optional. National Review is saying it *should* be optional. They are all but making the argument – FSM help me – that fire departments are, in fact, socia1ist.
They are arguing that this guy got what he deserved, and that’s the way things should be. I – and, we – are arguing that that’s NOT the way things should be… but perhaps the only way it can change is if the voters there decide to pay the minimal amount in the dreaded TAXES it would cost to form some sort of fire district.
Villago Delenda Est
@Scott P.:
Scott, these people think they’re John Galt. Let them live with the consequences of that fantasy.
soonergrunt
@GVG:
I happen to agree with you 100%, but the point here is that this is the way the people who live there, including the dumbass homeowner want it to be, and this is the wholly forseeable result of their decisions and policies. THEY need to change what THEY have to something a little bit better. But until they do, it’s not anyone’s responsibility but the dumbass homeowner’s.
You’re preaching to the choir with that part mate. I just don’t think that people should be insulated from the dumb decisions when there are blindingly obvious correct decisions right in front of them.
artem1s
@Ash Can:
I think he was referring to the freedom fighters in El Salvador who literally raped nuns for St. Ronnie.
FlipYrWhig
@Punchy:
_Proportional_ consequences, man. Letting someone’s house burn down over $75 is over the fucking line.
comrade scott's agenda of rage
@r€nato:
This.
I don’t often disagree with John but I do this time.
I live in an area “serviced” just like the one in the story. My wingnut county would go into collective apoplexy is we actually raised taxes for basic services like, oh, law enforcement (our county sheriff’s dept is a joke) or fire departments.
As such, we rely on volunteers and a subscription service. Hell, my bumfuck small town has to pay for it’s own street lights and I know half the town doesn’t pay for em assuming the rest of us will cover the bill. As such, they sure as shit ain’t paying for fire protection.
Thus, the volunteer fire people here would have done the EXACT SAME THING as the one in the story did. The only work they would have done on the burning structure of the fucktard who refused to pay for the service would be if it endangered an adjacent building that was subscribing and then only enough to protect the subscribed building. Otherwise, they would let it burn to the ground.
I know for a fact that our volunteer dept doesn’t get jack shit from the state or feds.
The issue here is what we all know: taxes are necessary for certain common good issues like fire fighting. But noooooooo, my wingnut county (73% for McCain) would rather let shit like this happen than actually raise the quality of services for everyone.
Keep in mind that my county was one of the last 2-3 to even get 911 service and that required a tax increase and it only barely passed.
So, what renato said. Fuck em. If more wingnut houses burn to the ground, maybe, just maybe, they might get it in their heads that taxes can be a good thing.
pseudonymous in nc
It’s not exactly “urban sprawl”: Google Maps will show you the landscape. We’re talking about a rural county where the largest incorporated city has 10,000 people and the fire departments have engines that wouldn’t look out of place in Mayberry.
We are also talking about a passive-aggressive jurisdictional standoff that’s been running for 20 years. Perhaps that ends now: it’s not as if it’s surprising to find out that subscription-based fire service is a much worse idea than — oh noes! — doing it through taxes.
DecidedFenceSitter
@FlipYrWhig: It is proportional – he paid 0% of the required amount, he got 0% of the protection.
soonergrunt
@2th&nayle: I didn’t think I posted anything in an aggressive manner. If you took it that way, please know that it was not my intent to do anything other than state a fact. I certainly did not take offense or umbrage at what you said to which I was replying, and wasn’t in that mindset when I replied. Having apparently phrased my answer in such a way as to offend, again, it was not my intention, and you have my sincere apology.
soonergrunt
@Scott P.:
I’ll bet there’s some kind of legal mechanism for paying for that setup that has passed muster in the respective legislatures. The whole Roles of Governments/International Borders thing probably made such formalities a requirement. I’m just sayin.
Face
@comrade scott’s agenda of rage: THIS. If this doesn’t connect for them the link between taxes and services, then nothing will. And people that ignorant/ideological need to suffer consequences for being that willingly obtuse.
SiubhanDuinne
@MattF: It is. You’re RRRRRRRRight!
Ash Can
@artem1s: Exactly. One of those inconvenient truths about St. Ronnie. It didn’t matter to him if the thugs raped nuns. As long as they weren’t commies, they were his buddies.
soonergrunt
@ruemara:
1) His taxes in the county do not support the fire department which is owned and operated by the city and extends its services outside the city limit for the fee in question.
2) He said elsewhere that he didn’t pay the fee because he figured they’d come out and put the fire out anyway. That he says after the fact that he ‘forgot’ may actually be true, but why the two stories from him and why the one that makes him look like an asshole first?
3) I’m sorry for the animals. It’s not their fault, but the owner’s fault that he didn’t do all the things necessary to care for them. Frankly, even if he had paid the fee, the fire department will not risk their lives to rescue pets, while they would’ve risked their lives to rescue trapped humans even when the owner didn’t pay the fee.
The answer to all of this is a Fire Services District with the necessary taxes to support it, but that’s what they’ve chosen to not have.
geg6
@eemom:
Not often that you and I agree about anything, but on this, I am with you.
Unfuckingbelievable.
DecidedFenceSitter
From another forum I read:
—
I think I’ll keep this story in mind, and trot it out as the perfect example of why I feel laissez-faire government doesn’t work, and why I favor greatly expanded government services in this country, good little communist that I am.
No one got hurt here, no one was a villain, hell you can argue that no one acted irrationally. Logically, I can’t find fault with the way the system runs. There are absolutely zero logical flaws here. The coverage is optional. This guy, who by all accounts is just an ordinary farmer, chose not to have this coverage. He gambled, and lost and didn’t recieve what he chose not to pay for. Simple.
And yet a man’s house got burned down because he didn’t want to pay a yearly cost that’s worth less than a family dinner at a good restaurant.
That’s not to mention the hordes of other problems that go along with this system- that someone too poor to pay, or going through financial hardships, might be denied emergency services. That this guy’s failure to pay hurt the fire department’s ability to cover other houses. That a clerical error might result in your house burning down. Or any hundreds of other problems I could come up with.
There were no villains, the system worked the way it was supposed to, and still, ultimately, evil won. Which means to me that the system is evil, and needs to be changed. /end quote
Villago Delenda Est
@Face:
THIS is, I believe, the nub of the problem. Not even consequences this severe seem to register with these people. Instead, this guy is playing the victim. He’s spinning a tale of bullshit on “Countdown” that reminds me of Steve Martin’s “I forgot” comedy routine.
They mouth these ideologies of rugged individualism and I don’t need no steenking social contract, and then when push comes to shove, they run back thinking that they should reap all the benefits of civilization that they’ve adamantly rejected up to the, as one of my NCO’s used to say in the Army, “significant emotional event”.
The situation in this county in Tennessee is intolerable, yet these people not only tolerate it, they seem to have NO PROBLEM WITH IT. It’s the system they’ve chosen, for weal or woe, to impose on themselves. Now they’re questioning it? Oh, I get it, they’ve got Condi Rice saying “no one could have anticipated” this consequence for such a screwed up system.
These people have decided to reject altruism and a community response as “a chump’s game”, even though paying it forward is surprisingly a smart thing to do, but of course there’s no immediate gratification, so we can’t have that, now can we?
r€nato
@FlipYrWhig: It IS over the line. But the voters of that area drew that line.
Look, if I were the fire chief, I don’t know what I would have done. I would like to think that I’d have said, “fuck it, we’re putting out that fire.”
Then what? Do I get fired for disobeying a direct order of my boss to not put out fires of non-subscribers? What if I have kids and a wife to feed and a mortgage to pay?
I fault the voters who decided that fire protection ought to be optional.
Where I live (and this may be a federal law, I don’t know), if you are injured or ill, you have a right to treatment in the emergency room… only to the point of being stabilized. This is the compromise between, ‘who needs health insurance, they’ll take care of you anyway,’ and, ‘if you can’t pay, just die in the street.’
I would NEVER argue that people should be allowed to die in the street in order to make my point that health insurance should be a public service supported by taxes.
And yet… this legally-mandated compassion does help perpetuate a system which poorly serves the vast majority of Americans as far as providing affordable health care and removing the fear of being bankrupted by illness, or dying because one cannot afford medical care.
I don’t think this is an easy issue for anyone.
But when it comes to the guy assaulting the fire chief… fuck him. I sure would not excuse that.
FlipYrWhig
@DecidedFenceSitter: Yeah, that’s why I’m not a libertarian.
Binzinerator
@WereBear:
Some people = most conservatives and every libertarian I’ve ever met.
It’s a pretty shocking brain dysfunction. They assume they will somehow get all the services and benefits a non-dysfunctional community provides without paying for the taxes or supporting policy that fosters actual community.
The solution they demand is one that inevitably, as celticdragonchick put it, results in making brutal, life and death decisions to enforce the moral hazard problem.
And I agree forcing these kinds of decisions will destroy the social fabric of the municipality/state/nation. That is, if the social fabric doesn’t already resemble places like Somalia or Sierra Leone or Liberia.
The maddening thing about these narcissistic retards is how effectively and unerringly they create conditions that affirm their fears and fulfill their prophecies. They see themselves as islands, they are against taxes and government and anyone getting a break on their dime, and eventually their policies break down the community to the point where it begins to resemble the dysfunctional one they have in their head.
FlipYrWhig
@r€nato: I say you put out the fire, refer the case — if it’s true that he caused it — to the criminal justice system for negligence, then count on the arguments we’re hearing here to carry the day, so that the guy has to pay a fine or a lien or something to pay back the fire department for consuming its services. I don’t think it’s the moment to lecture someone about moral hazard, any more than I think you as a doctor or pharmacist should be able to refuse a woman the morning-after pill because she should have used proper contraception ahead of time.
r€nato
@DecidedFenceSitter: great comment (by whomever originally posted it). Thanks for passing it on.
I am very conflicted about this as well… and thinking on it further just doesn’t help me resolve it at all.
Brachiator
@r€nato:
Hey, now! Let’s watch the unwarranted Neanderthal slurs. They were probably more co-operative than the goofballs being discussed here.
Binzinerator
@John Cole:
Lets see how that works out, using Church Lady’s example as a template:
Ah, these free-market church-going right-wingers! Exemplars of teh Christ.
geg6
@Binzinerator:
As I believe I may have said earlier today (or yesterday, who knows at this point?)…
Government by Mafia. Make sure you pay your vig!
fasteddie9318
@Church Lady:
I never said they did, you mendacious pimple.
Binzinerator
@YellowJournalism:
My hunch is not fear for farming, but linking this to feedlots and chicken farms and how animals are raised for food. The treatment and conditions of those animals have to be as bad or worse than any puppy mill.
When conservatards froth like this over stuff that is patently indefensible, it means someone hit close to what they’re really trying to hide.
pseudonymous in nc
How about we use another template? Let’s imagine the same city/county distinction: about half the population lives in the unincorporated county, and the police departments are funded by city taxes but provide service to the county residents outside the city limits as a courtesy, even though the cops end up handling more cases in the county than the city.
Both city and county residents don’t like tax increases, especially when city residents feel like the county folks are freeloading, so you get budget cuts — perhaps they can’t hire as many cops, or replace an old patrol vehicle. And so when that 911 call comes in, no-one’s available to take it.
Same plausible outcome from a more “moral” approach.
See, we all know how the system should be arranged to support the common good, but once cracks are allowed to develop in that sense of common purpose and obligation, the “market solutions” that are designed to patch and fill them just make things worse.
And Another Thing...
@2th&nayle: I saw the Olbermann interview and IIRC a member of the man’s family had PREVIOUSLY had a fire and not paid the fee before hand. If you follow the link & watch the video, on a previous occasion the man’s son had had a fire & the town had allowed him to pay the coverage fee the day AFTER the fire. So did the guy expect that he could skip paying the fee unless there was a fire? Hmmmm moral hazard.
The fee-for-coverage had been in place for 20 years, 8 years ago there was a local referendum on mandatory coverage, the fire was started by a member of his family who then lost control of it, and the guy & his family had previously had an uncovered fire. A series of choices ended in the very sad loss of his home.
The good news is that the ensuing discussion is exactly the sort of debate we should be having, and it was precipitated by the loss of a house not a life.
You want to be “free” and not pay the fee? You don’t get to cry cause you lost the bet.
Legalize
More proof that Lincoln erred. He should have let the Confederacy become Somalia when it wasn’t has heavily populated. And then walled-off. I have no doubt that back then our sane-minded brothers and sisters living among the Confederates could have been peacefully relocated to the United States if they so chose. These days, we have too much invested in the Confederate cesspool. It would be cost prohibitive to pull out now.
Cliff
@Cliff:
And then a teabagger flies a plane into a IRS building… only 2 of the people killed paid the teabagger protection tax. Who do the teabagger cops work with?
The teabagger who murdered the IRS agents for collecting taxes?
The 98% of IRS agents who Didn’t pay teabagger tax?
The 2% IRS agents who Did pay the teabagger tax?
The family of the teabagger who murdered the IRS agents and who payed all teabagger taxes but hate the feds?
2th&nayle
@soonergrunt: Ahh, I wasn’t really referring to your response, grunt. I was speaking in a more general manner. I should have said “responses”. Sorry, I didn’t make myself very clear. No offense taken. No apology necessary. My bad.
Cliff
@comrade scott’s agenda of rage:
What about all those tax credits y’all are eligible for? That ain’t federal support?
Prove it liar.
Maude
Was it the Nero Fire Department?
This was about money. The pets had no control over the fact that the owner didn’t pay.
Why not put out the fire and then get the money?
Pete
Look, I hate to be on the wrong side of the commenters here with their odd obsession with $75 fees, but there is some takeaway that y’all missed.
-Humane Society U.S. =/= the people who run shelters. HSUS is parasite organization that is into animal liberation, not humane care.
-All the stuff in the new bill,with the exception of the 2 litter/18 month limit, is in current law is already on the books. In fact current law is better written and applies to more breeders.
-There is no published science that supports the 2 litter / 18 month limit.
Pete
mds
@Bullsmith:
Hmm.
“Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.
Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.
[…]
And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him.
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.”
—Leviticus 19:17-18,33-34 (KJV)
“Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
[…]
And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.”
–1 Corinthians 13:1-7, 13 (KJV)
So no, not so much even with the Leviticus and Corinthians. They’re also not actually particularly good with Revelation, unless it’s been run through the Scofield Filter and “interpreted” for them. These fuckwits don’t read the Bible, they read Left Behind. If they can read.
2th&nayle
@And Another Thing…:
I saw the KO interview last night. In fact, I linked to it. I admit that I had not seen the previous interview so maybe I was talking out of school a bit. But all I alluded to was, in the KO interview the homeowner seemed fairly contrite and seemed (to me) to take responsibility for his oversight. I’ll grant that he didn’t come right out and say, “This was all my fault. I should have paid my fee.” But, considering the fact that he was sitting in front of the smoldering remains of his house, I’m willing to give him a pass on that. As far as I could tell he pretty much just answered Obermann’s questions, except at the end of the interview when he stated that he didn’t “refuse” to pay the fee, for whatever difference that makes. I didn’t get the impression he was crying because he lost the bet. But that’s just me. Maybe it’s a distinction without a difference.
And Another Thing...
@John Cole: You need to get a fucking grip. I don’t read people saying “This is how it should be.” We’re discussing the real world consequences of living in rural Tenn. and having voted down mandatory coverage, and then opting out of buying fireman insurance. Just who is going to make these fine Tenn types be, you know, enlightened… You and your magic wand?
If I were this guy’s neighbor – which I would never be cause he lives in cracker land – I’d get a lawyer & sue his ass – for negligence on starting the fire in the first place and negligence for not being prepared to put it out ie, having a fire fighter on call. Not cause I’d ever get anything from the guy but to put the fear into all those other voters in the county who think they’re going to save $75 by letting somebody else pay for the firefighter.
Cliff
@mds:
http://www.semissourian.com/blogs/1565/entry/37471/
Are you smarter than an atheist?
Posted Tuesday, October 5, 2010, at 11:43 AM
I guess that’s why they call it blind faith.
I’m working on a story that’s running in a week or two about a recent poll by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life.
Among the poll’s main findings is that atheists and agnostics are among the highest-scoring groups on the survey on religious knowledge. The poll was released last week.
That means they outperformed evangelical Protestants, mainline Protestants and Catholics on questions about the core teachings, history and leading figures of major world religions. On average, the survey says, Protestants correctly answered 16 of the 32 religious knowledge questions and Catholics averaged 14.7 right answers. But atheists and agnostics average 20.9 answers correctly, which was close to what Jews and Mormons got. This was even after the survey was controlled for differing levels of education.
Perhaps the most interesting quote I read was from Dave Silverman, the president of American Atheists. “I gave a Bible to my daughter,” he told the New York Times. “That’s how you make an atheist.”
Cliff
@And Another Thing…:
Sooo… fire service for a trailer worth 10-50,000 dollars should cost the same as fire service for a 10 million dollar mansion?
or a 10 million dollar field of grain/barns&eqip??
75$ per property or per 1000$ value?
why should a small property holder pay the same tax as someone requiring 100’s-1000’s the times in cost to protect.
IT’S A FUCKING STUPID IDEA!
Catsy
@soonergrunt:
That’s incredibly shitty of you.
Yes, the head of household in that family is partially responsible for what happened. Yes, he fucked up and is now reaping the consequences.
But his wife probably wasn’t responsible for letting their subscription lapse, and his kids and grandkids certainly weren’t. They didn’t deserve to watch their home burn. They didn’t deserve to listen to their pets scream as they burned to death. They didn’t deserve to lose every irreplaceable memory in that home and go through this trauma just because Gene Cranick fucked up.
How about we leave punishing children for the sins of their parents to the anti-immigrant conservative bigots?
And Another Thing...
@Cliff: Of course it’s a fucking stupid idea! And basing the fee on property value is a better measure of benefit received.
But the point here is that it’s THEIR system, they have CHOSEN it apparently in a recent democratic process.
Cole seems to think we should do something about it. Like what?
So if you were gonna guess, would this guy buy health insurance or expect someone else to pay for his emergency room visit?
celticdragonchick
@Paris:
Uh, that is a bit out of hand.
If you can’t be trusted to have a frakking candle, I would find another place to live.
El Cid
In an apartment complex I lived in, an elderly retired woman lived right downstairs from me and was a hoarder (before I knew that was the term). The place was completely filled with stacks of newspapers and magazines, typically about four foot piles off the floor and coating everything but her kitchen table and one chair and a pathway from there to the kitchen to the bathroom to the bed, and sort of to the door. Her only place to store her dry goods was in her oven, but she promised she never used the oven. The apartment manager knew but didn’t give a shit. It always made me scared.
I wouldn’t say she deserved any negative fire consequences, but she sure was risking all our lives by her irresponsible, albeit I guess uncontrollably neurotic, behavior.
Mnemosyne
@celticdragonchick:
I’m guessing that the candle rule is a co-op/condo association rule, not a city ordinance. Which, of course, makes it even stupider for Parker to complain about it since it’s the rule of the private organization that she empowered to make these decisions instead of the city.
Cliff
@And Another Thing…:
NO, You tack a small income adjusted tax onto Everyones taxes so you don’t have to worry ’bout your neighbor burning down your house/giving you the flu/some evil contagious thing.
DUH.
brantl
@WereBear: You’ve never forgotten to pay a bill, Werebear? Ever?
CodyS
On the house burning issue:
As other have said, the real problem is the system in which this happened. Why don’t we do this for military? Why don’t we do this for police? What happens if there was a clerical error, for christ’s sake?
Additionally, there were 4 pets in the house; all of them died. I wonder, but don’t want to find out, what would have happened if his wife was in the house with the pets?