Personally, I think it is great politics the month before an election to be staging “elaborate” protests against the people who voted your way on your big issue:
A group of LGBT equality activists working to end “don’t ask, don’t tell” launched an elaborate protest early Monday evening as President Barack Obama attended a private Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee fund-raiser in Miami at the home of NBA star Alonzo Mourning.
As the president headed toward Mourning’s Coconut Grove residence, where donors had paid as much as $5,000 and $18,000 per person to see him, members of GetEqual, a national LGBT rights organization, along with local activists lined the street holding four 10-foot signs that read “End the Discharges Now” and “We’ll Give When We GetEQUAL” – a reference to the group’s recent campaign encouraging people not to donate money to either the Democratic or Republican parties or their campaign committees until the president signs an executive order immediately stopping the discharges.
Your money will be a real help when Sharon Angle, Joe Miller, and the rest of the lunatics are being sworn in! THX! And now I will have to deal with the same five morons telling me they refuse to clap louder. Pro-tip: No one is asking you to clap louder. We’re asking you to stop pissing into the tent.
Also, Raul Grijvala is now in trouble. The leader of the progressive caucus. I’m sure this is Rahmbama’s fault, too. If only Raul had gotten the public option like he promised, then the teabaggers would not be after him. Regardless, we’ve added him to our actblue page because unlike the crazy people (on our side, not the teahadists), we think this election does matter. Although I’m sure one of you firebaggers will explain to me how losing the leader of the progressive caucus will “send a message” and “move the overton window.” Clowns.
We’re heading into combat the next few weeks and half the team is too busy poisoning our own water supply and attacking leadership to realize the other side means business.
Odie Hugh Manatee
“
You’reYour money will be a real help when Sharon Angle…”That’s ok, I am pissed and sick of this kind of shit and I would do the same thing dashing off a pissed off post.
ETA: I see ya beat me to it! Damn yer a fast one Cole.
OT: Alvin Green on O’Donnell repeating one phrase over and over:
‘Jim DeMint started the recession.’
and that is about it. What a train wreck.
Mumphrey
Ah, well, I guess it’s time to dust off the old passport and look into how one gets residency in Honduras, a country whose best days may yet be ahead of it…
This isn’t to say I won’t be voting, though; there’s still a shot at pulling this out of the shitter, but only if people stop whining long enough to go out and pull the damned lever. There’ll be time enough for whining after the election.
Prav Duh
You aren’t gay, or black, or Hispanic. I thought you didn’t care who won. It wouldn’t affect you.
CJ
No Obama sold us out tag? For shame.
suzanne
I adore Grijalva. He’s the only thing I miss about living in the Old Pueblo. I’ll call his office tomorrow and see what those of us living elsewhere can do to help.
KCinDC
Can someone explain what exactly FactCheck.org thinks is wrong with what Obama said about foreign money? I mean, even if you believe every word the US Chamber of Commerce says (an extremely dubious position to take), they didn’t contradict him.
Nick
@KCinDC:
Apparently the Chamber of Commerce denies it and nobody in the media can be bothered to investigate further. Clearly, this is because Obama didn’t use the bully pulpit.
General Stuck
Just goes to show you, some gay people are no different than many straight people. Stupid is as stupid does. Equality is equal for every idiot.
Number one foam finger would be a good tag.
arguingwithsignposts
Wait, they didn’t bring the giant puppet heads? I suppose that’s a step in the right direction.
WyldPirate
funny….seems I remember all sorts of whining and pissin and moanin’ coming out of the WH about the “professional left”, and months and months of worthless wasted time out of the WH playing “Charlie brown” to the Rethugs Lucy while they yanked the football away and Rahmbama whined about bipartisanship.
I could go on, but why bother?
Obama made his bed with his supporters. He put most of the shit in his own bed he’s laying in…
Fuck ’em. It’s time for this Republic to fall so whatever is going to be made from the ashes can start anew…
Nick
meh, let them have their protest. A few hundred gay people aren’t going to change the outcome of the election. They’ll come around anyway.
I heard the same bullshit about Andrew Cuomo, that gays would stay home or wouldn’t help him because he’s not out and proud for gay marriage (even though he is) and doesn’t “excite them”
Then Carl Paladino opened his mouth.
John Cole
@Nick: The all out assault on gays from 2003 until present was enough of a clue?
Nick
@WyldPirate:
Yeah, I’m sure that’s going to be a progressive utopia.
Davis X. Machina
Look, a good third of our side turned on Obama the day he took the oath, because he took the oath. Because they know all politicians are venal and corrupt. Because they know any contact with power is infectious. Because winning elections makes you The Man.
I’m old enough to remember MK Ultra, Watergate, and the Church Report. I’m old enough to remember the ’68 assassinations. I grew up watching Boston machine politics from the inside. And all my years with the Jesuits taught me to take the inherent depravity of mankind and give the points.
But I haven’t figured out another way to run things that doesn’t involve power, there is no society without coercion, and I haven’t seen a politics yet that didn’t have politicians, going back to Cleisthenes. (Before him, there wasn’t any.)
General Stuck
See what I mean.
kommrade reproductive vigor
Please see your doctor if discharges continue for more than three days.
Sorry. I’m too tired to get pissed about this again so that leaves … Snark!
KCinDC
@Nick, but point is that the Chamber of Commerce isn’t denying what Obama said. They admit that they do take foreign money. They just say that because they have separate pots of money it’s legal. But Obama didn’t say they were breaking the law.
FactCheck.org is somehow hung up on the question of legality, when the Democratic criticism isn’t about that. It’s about whether it’s right.
Lincolnshire Poacher
The fact that they are protesting is largely due to the fact the Democratic Party has swung far right on a lot of issues. John does not notice since he will likely see this as his old Republican Party before the crazies took over. Who can blame him? I have family that misses the good old days of the GOP too, before Bush the Second or Palin or “I am you” woman. They now support the “New” Democratic Party as well.
daveNYC
So their threat is to not give to either party? Yeah, that’ll show ’em.
Fucktards.
WyldPirate
@Nick:
It’s just postponing the inevitable. History has a long littered past of “experiments” ending badly.
We aren’t an exception here no matter how hard wish wish it wasn’t so or how hard we clap.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@WyldPirate:
Really? I remember about five individual comments over the course of almost two years, all amplified by screeching and butt-hurt wailing about them.
As to Rahm and Obama’s “whining about bipartisanship”, work the numbers without it, dumbfuck.
That's Master of Accountancy to You, Pal (JMN)
WyldPirate thinks that his handle will give him a leg up in the coming anarchy, aaaaaaaarrrrrrrr!!!!!!
John Cole
@Lincolnshire Poacher: Almost every Democrat with the exception of one or two voted to end DADT.
What the fuck are you talking about?
gbear
So I take it they’re voting for Christine McDonald…
Joe Beese
I dropped by just now to see if you had been successfully provoked into bitching about this.
Thing is, Mr. Cole, they tried it your way. They sat politely in the back of the bus trusting that your man would do what he said. Which got them precisely dick.
They see now that Obama needs additional motivation. And the only way to motivate a man with the principles of a wharf rat is to inflict pain upon him.
Or to paraphrase Emma Goldman, a tent gets all the piss it deserves.
MikeJ
Letting Republicans like Iott take over couldn’t hurt at all.
John Cole
I’m also very curious about this strategy to get your issues paid attention to by REFUSING to participate. Haha! They will end DADT for sure once we take our ball and go home! The surest way to a public option is to depress the vote! Look at me, my brains are leaking out my ears!
General Stuck
@John Cole:
They track this shit in from the usual cesspools like the GOS et al. A force of nature from an eternal spout of willful ignorance. What’s a body to do?
beltane
Why doesn’t anyone on the left protest Republicans? I’ve never really understood that one.
WyldPirate
@General Stuck:
You’re too old to believe in the Tinkerbell shit, Stuck.
I’m not happy about the shithole the country is turning into, but it’s happening at an accelerating rate. There’s no stopping it now. Only someone totally ignorant of history would insist otherwise.
We’re in deep shit. Obama isn’t our Saviour. He never was and I never expected him to be. He has been a big disappointment, though. There was no need to play nice with the enemy for so long.
John Cole
@beltane: Why bother? Obama’s just like Bush!
K. Grant
@WyldPirate:
Congratulations, you are a heartless bastard. Do you feel better for wishing for an increase of pain and suffering? Nah, you don’t feel at all, except bitterness because ‘they’ won’t give you exactly what you want when you want it. Spoiled brat and sadist – great combo.
beltane
@General Stuck: It’s really not so bad at GOS anymore. This stuff is mainly limited to FDL and other places which none of us have probably heard of.
General Stuck
@beltane: My theory is, much of the left is simply acting out their personal dramas from dysfunctional childhoods and families within their adopted new family that is the dem party. The republicans are the crazy neighbors who have their own problems.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@beltane: Because we’ve forgotten how.
Martin
@KCinDC: To be honest, much of the point of the criticism is that it isn’t illegal. It ought to be, which is an indictment of the Roberts court and the GOP.
Silver Owl
I got an email about how I need to get in the game from the dems. I replied, “I’ve been in the game for years. The blue dogs have playing for the other team on major issues. How about telling the blue dogs to get in the game?” lol
I gave money for years, but after the Stupak amendment, the constant compromises on crazy stuff for “bipartisan” kabuki dances, why pay for being slapped in the face, when I can get it without contributing and just voting?
El Cid
Is Ken Melman involved?
WyldPirate
@Joe Beese:
This. And on issue after issue as well.
My last straw was the dumb as fuck surge in Afghanistan. It was as bad as Nixon escalating in Vietnam after all of his “peace with honor” shit. Couldn’t take the heat or the criticism from the Repukes that would have come from doing the sensible thing–pulling the fuck out and leaving that shithole to the only people that want it; the ones that live there.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
Just made my bi-weekly contribution to the Act Blue page. Tonight was Conway and McAdams. Plus some more for Bill White here in Texas.
Martin
@beltane: Yeah, that’s my observation as well – though it’s a very recent change – maybe 2 weeks, tops.
Sometimes my daughter, when she was 2 and really wanted something, she’d hold her breath – as though if we didn’t give her what she wanted she’d asphyxiate. She’d always manage to take a breath before that happened, though.
El Cid
@arguingwithsignposts: I attended a protest once in which some of my friends were on the giant ‘indigenous American’ puppet head things. I asked them what they were there for and what they were doing, and there really wasn’t a good answer. You were just supposed to make giant puppet heads of ‘native Americans’ or ‘indigenous people’ in general because that’s what people at modern protests did.
General Stuck
@WyldPirate: yea, well, I agree with much of what you say, at least as a possible outcome, but choose to spend my time at least trying. And you are correct that Obama is not our saviour, but he can buy us some time to save ourselves. Letting the wingers back in without a fight goes against my basic nature and makes certain the outcome. and Gawd hates a quitter, if you believe in such things.
Bob Loblaw
Eh, probably more to do with the fact that his name is Raul Grijalva and he’s running in the state of Arizona, really. But you can’t pass up the opportunity to wallop the shit out of some random anonymous blog commenters, especially not in a post about petty intra-party sniping.
Because that wouldn’t be hypocritical and characteristic of a man unable to control his emotions. And I mean, isn’t that the whole point of the internetz in the first place?
Moses2317
At the risk of annoying Bob Loblaw, I’d note that a much better strategy for gay rights activists would be to fight for Democratic candidates who can help put repeal of DADT over the top. For example, here are five Dem Senate candidates who are on the record favoring repeal and would replace sitting or retiring Republicans who oppose equality and fairness. And, of course, Joe Sestak in Pennsylvania is a co-sponsor of the DADT repeal legislation, and Russ Feingold is one of only five Senators who publicly supports marriage equality.
Winning Progressive
kommrade reproductive vigor
It worked when they were 12 and they stopped talking to their parents until they got that CD player they just had to have.
If getting a Republican majority in Congress doesn’t get lead to a repeal of DADT* they’ll sigh heavily, refuse to eat and slam doors a lot.
*Seriously, how the pox infected fuck is that shit supposed to work? Are the GOPers going to vote for a repeal out of gratitude?
El Cid
@WyldPirate: Hey, if we could only rally to like 10 or 20 million troops in Afghanistan, we’d totally win.
WyldPirate
@K. Grant:
Nope, not at all. I’m not drowning in self-delusion though.
I don’t want to see anyone suffer, but millions are and it’s going to get much, much worse.
Feel free to remain mired in denial, though.
kommrade reproductive vigor
FXD!
WyldPirate
@El Cid:
LOL. Good one. I think Alexander the Great had a similar idea.
He was more successful there than we will be, though. Didn’t spend nearly the same amount of cashish, either.
Glenndacious Greenwaldian (formerly tim)
@John Cole:
and yet still, somehow, mysteriously, DADT remains in force. The dems in congress don’t play hardass hard ball, all out, full stop. How many bluedogs have been threatened with Dem funds cutoffs, no money to their districts, etc.? there are lots of behind the scenes ways to twist arms and get things done. BUt of course Ried and obama are too nice.
Obama hasn’t even bothered to stop current dadt discharges, which he could do with a stroke of a pen, because you know, the 14the STUDY of how it would affect the military industrial complex hasn’t yet been completed.
Obama is yanking our chain. I think you only pretend to not see it. You’re not that stupid.
but then this is one of your patented, self trolling threads, designed for maximum comments, not intellectual clarity.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Nick:
Think of the possibilities once we hit rock bottom! With teabaggers and wingnuts in office, when things look bad for them I am sure that they will be more than happy to nuke some unfortunate mooslim country just to toss some chum to distract their supporters. Nothing like nuking some dark-skinned people to pacify and build the base!
Then we can watch as the rest of the world debates whether or not they should nuke our crazy asses to keep everyone else safe from the rabid shithouse dogs that we’ve become.
Sounds like a plan!
Nick
@Joe Beese:
If by dick you mean the Matthew Shepard Act passed, hospital visitation rights, and Congress voting on DADT. You can want more, we all do, and we all want to push them to do more, but saying they got dick is wrong.
suzanne
God, politics (and the pregnancy ass-kicking) have me in a sour mood today. Check this cuteness out: Luna doesn’t have the hang of fetch, but is charming nonetheless.
El Cid
@WyldPirate: Alexander the Great couldn’t hire the Chinese. We could probably get a good cut rate on several million Chinese troops. We need to get a ratio of about 1 US-sponsored soldier for every adult Afghan citizen. Then we can win. And we can go on winning for another 20 years or so.
Death Panel Truck
John Cole’s governor and WV Senate candidate, Joe Manchin, goes on Fox News to say he thinks the health care act should be repealed.
Nary a word from John Cole (or anyone else here) about it. Hmm…
Nick
@Glenndacious Greenwaldian (formerly tim):
Or because an executive order doesn’t actually end the law, can be overturned, and can also be temporary.
But that would be reality, which, you know, doesn’t work for you
General Stuck
@suzanne:
Luna RAWKS!!
JMY
@WyldPirate:
You say that as if he one day, all of a sudden decided to continue the war in Afghanistan. How is that your last straw, when he consistently said that he would during the campaign?
When people get mad that he didn’t withdraw troops from Afghanistan, I wonder if they paid any attention to anything he said during the campaign.
JenJen
@WyldPirate:
I’m sure us chicks are going to have a swell time in your utopian anarchy scenario.
Nick
@Bob Loblaw:
in a 51% Latino Democratic district that Obama won by double digits.
John - A Motley Moose
How about adding Gary Peters MI-09 to the ActBlue page? Here’s his voting record – http://www.votesmart.org/voting_category.php?can_id=8749 The only negative thing I can say about his first term is that he’s for extending all of the Bush tax cuts. I called his D.C. office and bitched about that, but have to admit he’s been pretty darn good for someone in that district. He’s been right on all of the LGBT issues also, just to keep this on topic.
He’s in a district that leans red, but he’s far more progressive than any blue dog out there. I’d like to see him run for senator when Levin retires.
Steve
@Nick:
He doesn’t excite them? But his pr… oh, never mind.
gbear
@Joe Beese:
When I hop on the bus, I know where I want to end up, but if after 20 minutes the bus isn’t at my destination, I’m going to start smashing seats and windows. It’s only fair.
WyldPirate
@General Stuck:
Shit, Stuck. I haven’t quit. I’ll go pull the lever although I’ve talked shit about not doing it. I’ve never NOT voted since I’ve been eligible.
I’ll also hang in there as long as I can if things get really bad. Too much survival instinct. My folks have got some decent farmland still in the family. I can skin a buck, run a trotline, grow mad veggies and fine herb to trade. I can reload and havea but load of hardware and brass, powder and the like. I’ll last a little while before the diabetes takes me out or because my heart vapor locks again.
I’ve had a good run. No regrets and all that rot. I’m leaving no spawn behind that I know of to worry about either.
El Cid
@JMY: I’d like to clarify that it really is okay — not entering into the substantive argument — to oppose Obama’s Afghanistan policies while understanding that that is what he campaigned on. You didn’t have to agree with that point of his campaign in order to decide to prefer him in office. You don’t have to be surprised about it in order to oppose it. Unless it applies specifically to people who express surprise at the policy, this is completely irrelevant to any expressions of doubt or derision at US policies in Afghanistan.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Joe Beese: “Or to paraphrase Emma Goldman, a tent gets all the piss it deserves. “
And here you are, pissing away with mindless glee. Awful proud of yourself, eh? I bet you are.
@beltane:
Because they’re too busy attacking their own? I’m pretty sure it’s something like that.
John Cole
@Glenndacious Greenwaldian (formerly tim): My God. You don’t even know how many Democrats are in the Senate, do you?
Joe Beese
Simple. The LGBT forces continue to impair the cash flow until Obama is forced to shut them up by signing an executive order suspending dismissals under DADT pending the release of the Pentagon review.
Sure, we’d prefer it if he signed because it was the moral thing to do. We’d settle for him doing it because it’s the practical thing to do. (Which it is more than ever, given his apparent determination to visit war on every Muslim nation on earth.) Fuck, we’d even settle for him doing it as a grudging quid pro quo.
But since the homophobic bastard needs to be blackmailed into doing it, so be it.
Martin
@WyldPirate: So, what’s the remedy? The GOP is going to do less dumb as fuck things?
You guys act as though there’s a spectrum of choice out there, that if you don’t participate that the election won’t actually happen. This isn’t a choice. The results of the next election are forced on you, and the possible outcomes in each race are almost always precisely two – a Democrat or a Republican.
Don’t like the current crop of Dems? Great, but the primaries were earlier in the year. That was your chance. Now you’ve got to live with either the Dem or Republican in your race, and you’ve got to deal with an agenda set by Dems or one set by Republicans. Even if you elect Dems in your race, if the GOP wins control across the country, they control the agenda. You really think that will help get progressive legislation? You really think that will shame the country in to electing better Democrats in 2012?
Bob Loblaw
@Moses2317:
Wait, there’s an election this year?! This is the first I’ve heard about it.
Also, what’s a Senator?
Martin
@Joe Beese: Impairing cash flow to Democrats won’t get Republicans to vote for DADT, and the executive order won’t help that to happen. You’ll end up with a non-legislative standoff like Roe v. Wade that will last years.
Your strategy was written by Karl Rove and you’re too stupid to realize it.
WyldPirate
@El Cid:
El Cid, that’s too complicated.
We could helicopter in 1/4 of the cash on pallets to the villages that we are spending there now and pacify the place or at least have better effect than blowing the shit out of things.
Nick
@Joe Beese: I can’t take seriously someone who calls the most progressive gay rights President in history a “homophobic bastard”
eat fertilized dirt.
Suck It Up!
@Lincolnshire Poacher:
What issues? list them.
Kristine
$30 for Raul Grijvala.
That's Master of Accountancy to You, Pal (JMN)
@Nick:
An executive order would also blatantly violate the spirit of the law. An executive order ending all discharges would probably also violate the letter of the law. I’ve posted the relevant section of the US Code to this blog four times, but it doesn’t seem to register.
WaterGirl
@suzanne: in spite of the ass kicking pregnancy, you have a great laugh!
WyldPirate
@Martin:
There isn’t one. The US is like Humpty-Dumpty. It’s too fucking broken, fucked up and corrupt to be put back together again, IMO.
I hope I’m wrong, but I don’t think I am.
Martin
@Death Panel Truck: Well, it’s a stupid, self-defeating ad by Manchin, but bitching about it accomplishes what, exactly? More votes for his opponent?
Manchin knows the score. He knows what his colleagues would say about it. We don’t need to add fuel to an existing fire of stupid.
General Stuck
30 million more Americans will be able to get life saving healthcare in a few years. That is precisely 30 million more than if the wingnuts were running things. You can parse and noodle that into all sorts of Obama fail, but it will remain a fact.
kommrade reproductive vigor
@Joe Beese: OK. I see.
Wow.
Are you really that stupid or is this a spoof?
Comrade Kevin
@Nick: If Obama had signed such an executive order, Congress would then decide that they didn’t have to do anything at all. Beese would probably be complaining about *that*, and blame Obama for it.
Joe Beese
On marriage equality, he’s to the right of Dick Cheney. Who was also President.
Nick
@Davis X. Machina:
Did anyone see Family Guy last weekend, when Brian the dog becomes a teabagger and at the end Rush Limbaugh says “It’s no surprise you changed your positions as soon as your side took power. You always need something to fight against”
Nick
@Joe Beese:
There isn’t a damn thing correct about this statement.
That's Master of Accountancy to You, Pal (JMN)
@Joe Beese:
So, you didn’t really have a problem with the fact that George Bush decided to enforce whatever laws he saw fit to and say that they meant anything he wanted them to. You just didn’t like his interpretations.
Read the fucking law, moron.
JMY
@El Cid:
I understand that, but from that comment I got the impression that he didn’t think the president would continue the war in Afghanistan or that he surprised by that decision when Obama said he would do it before he was even elected.
There were plenty of people who were mad at the decision to send more troops there as if he had broken a promise not to.
Nick
@Comrade Kevin:
Of course he would. And when a court overturns it or the Pentagon decides “ok, we did our review, gays are bad for the military” and the exec order expires, or gets overturned by the next Republican president, he’d say it was all pre-planned by Obama because he hates gay people.
It’s no secret Obama hasn’t put these issues on top of his agenda (seeing as the economy sucks and everything), no matter what he does, he can’t please them.
Maybe people like Beese should focus on stopping marriage equality from getting overturned by voters as has happened in two states already.
John - A Motley Moose
@WyldPirate: And here I called Nick a pessimist. He’s practically a moonbeam rainbow compared to you.
Martin
@WyldPirate: Yeah, there is, actually. Help the Dems hold control and spend the next 15 months finding primary challenges for them, and spend your time bitching about the people who voted AGAINST repealing DADT rather than bitching about the people who voted FOR repealing it.
But it doesn’t matter if it’s too broken or too fucked up. If you want your legislative victory then you have to deal with the broken, fucked up system we have. Or move. Checking out just means that you don’t really care about that legislative issue.
And yes, that’s precisely how the Democrats will view the situation.
Nick
@John – A Motley Moose:
Oh no, I pretty much agree with him, right wing Christian military dictatorship is right around the corner, electing a black man president pulled the trigger.
I’m just going to fight until the battle is lost so I have no regrets.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@WyldPirate:
I’m pretty sure that you’re either a bitter ender or a ratfucker since anyone with half a brain who listened to Obama in the primary and general knew exactly where he stood on Afghanistan. That or you are deaf and dumb, thus deserving understanding and our sympathy.
If you prefer, I am willing to entertain that last option as a distinct possibility. Nobody would fault you for that.
Martin
@General Stuck: Actually, it’s more than 30 million more, since the GOP would prefer to scrap Medicare and Medicaid and toss all of those people into the pre-existing conditions mulcher of souls.
Joe Beese
suzanne
@WaterGirl: Awww, thank you. I just never cease to be amused by how far and fast she will run toward that ball, just to ignore it, run back, and then flop in the grass as if to say, “All this hard work is kicking my ASS!”
K. Grant
@WyldPirate: Lovely transference.
I, on the other hand, never thought that Obama was anything other then a vaguely left of center Democratic politician. I hoped he would get a few things done. He has. I would like to see a great deal more, but I won’t be surprised if he doesn’t get everything that I would like to see.
I also know that helping to get a great many lunatic right-wing types elected is going to be far worse for everybody.
This is not the end of the republic, just a choice between two groups of politicians, one happens to be a better choice. It is not denial, it is realism.
As for your survivalism bit – again, very nice, you have thought about your own self-preservation and have ignored everyone else around you. How heroic. Hobbes was right.
WyldPirate
@JMY:
El Cid got it right. I’m an old fucker. I remember when the Rethugs started all of the Dems are “weak on defense” shit. I thought it was something that he WOULD welsh on, particularly if the Generals and the DOD were straight with him (I was real naive on the later and should have known better being ex-Army and seen a shit load of hubristic ringknocker brass in action).
If nothing else, I thought Obama would be enough of a student of history to realize we were pissing in the wind over there. THAT’s what I’m pissed about.
MikeJ
@Martin: Yep. Elected Democrats can help people who donate money or they can help people who refuse to donate money. It doesn’t take a rocket surgeon to figure out who they’re going to help.
And before any idiots ask why they haven’t helped so far, I refer you to the person above who noted how many Dems voted to overturn the law as it currently stands, DADT.
kommrade reproductive vigor
Until Obama surrenders the coordinates of the alternate universe where everything happens exactly when people want it and exactly the way they want it, I will not vote!
That's Master of Accountancy to You, Pal (JMN)
@Joe Beese: Notice, of course, that Obama has very carefully taken all of those arguments to court. When he doesn’t win, he backs down. So, yes, I think he respects the law quite a bit. He doesn’t interpret it the way that I wish he would, but neither does the judiciary.
Disagreeing as to what the law means is not the same thing as not respecting the law. So try again, moron.
NR
@General Stuck:
Um, no. 30 million people will be forced by law to get pieces of paper that say “insurance policy” on them. That is not even close to the same thing as getting life saving healthcare.
wonkie
I think Democracy is over in the US. I think the Supreme Court destroyed it with their ruling which allows shadow organnizations with limitless money to buy elections. I am workinng on my husband to get us to move to Canada.
Of course as long as I am here I will vote. In fact I’m phonebankinng for a Dem on Wednesday.
But in the long run its over and the good guys lost.
Martin
@NR: Bullshit. And I challenge you to defend that statement.
NR
Bush got his way with much smaller majorities and massively unpopular policies. The things the left wants are popular, and the Dems still can’t or won’t deliver on them.
If the Dems can’t do the right thing with 60-70% of the country behind them, then they don’t deserve to be where they are. Period.
WaterGirl
@suzanne: Some dogs love to fetch, or love their toys. Others, not so much. She looks like a great dog, but I am not sure fetching is gonna be her thing. :-) My personal favorite is when a pup is first learning how to catch a ball after it bounces.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@kommrade reproductive vigor: In the immigration discussion last week or so, someone asked in plaintive sincerity “Hispanics have been voting solidly Democratic since 2004. How long are they supposed to wait?”
I just imagined John Conyers, John Lewis and the ghost of Medgar Evers reading that.
And Another Thing...
@Nick: Good points. IMHO an executive order also lessens the chances that Congress would then vote to end it. After all, the question would then be “moot” therefore no reason to take a tough vote that would piss off some rightie.
TooManyJens
@NR: And we don’t deserve for the Republicans to be where they are. So then what?
Ash Can
As I’ve said before, it’s probably just as well if the breath-holders stay home on election day, because chances are good that they’d end up pulling the wrong lever by accident anyway.
@suzanne: Luna, on the other hand, is awesome. She just has no interest whatsoever in that ball, does she?
Left Coast Tom
@WyldPirate:
Your _last straw_ was Obama doing what he said he’d do before he was elected? Two years ago? When he described Iraq as a massive distraction from the war in Afghanistan?
If, apparently like Joe Beese, your heart was really set on health care reform that didn’t involve a mandate, then a complaint might make sense, though I voted for Obama in the primary despite that position, and hoping Clinton would talk sense into him on that topic (which she seems to have done). Likewise, if you think facts on the ground in Afghanistan (or basic reality) are such that revisiting such an opinion is mandatory, then great, that’s a perfectly fair view. But this is a “LAST STRAW”? Doing what he said he would all along is a “last straw”?
General Stuck
@NR: Martin said it. Put up or shutup.
Peter
@WyldPirate: I am confused and appalled by your logic. The US is broken, corrupt and fucked up, and so the solution is…to burn it to the ground, and rebuild something totally different in its place?
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@NR: Not that I want to fight tonight, but Republicans were able to pass those things because the Democrats acted the way the minority party has for all except two periods in US history: They allowed the majority party to make the bills, they proposed changes, and then voted on the bills. The only two times this hasn’t happened is now and right before the Civil War.
KCinDC
@NR, war and tax cuts are not “massively unpopular policies”. Any idiot can get those through Congress. When Bush tried something that really was massively unpopular, privatizing Social Security, he failed miserably.
NR
@Martin: It’s simple. For-profit insurance is not designed to provide care. Its purpose is to make profits. The way it makes profits is through denial of care.
Graeme
Whatever. There are nuts on the left, same as there are nuts on the right.
I’m disappointed enough that I’m only giving money to Prop 19 this year. That’s the issue that’s really important to me, anyway. I’ll vote for Boxer & Pelosi, though.
I’m just glad the Giants beat the Braves so all the smarmy holier-than-thou cunts in SF can stop whining about the tomahawk chop.
WyldPirate
@Martin:
Read up the board. I’ll vote. I’ll vote straight ticket Dem most likely. Won’t do too much good here amongst all of the mouthbreathing, knuckle-draggering, teabaggers here in NC, but I’ll vote.
I’m not going to delude myself into thinking that bitching at some pissed off special-interest group on the intertoobz that doesn’t show enough blind, deaf and dumb loyalty will do any good, though. Besides, our “side” has to have their feet held to the fire, too. They’ll ratfuck us as soon as the heat is off of them as they are taking money from all of their corporate masters as well. I recall much bitching (much by myself, too) about the blind loyalty to Shrub.
What I won’t do is give any money. I have none to give as I’m out of work. I won’t knock on any doors for “our” side this time either. Won’t do the GOTV again. I don’t “believe” in the “promises”: anymore. I got hopes up for the last time that finally–FINALLY, this time THIS GUY was different.
He wasn’t. I’m not getting my hopes up again. That would be insanity as in doing the same thing again and again and expecting a different result.
Bob Loblaw
@NR:
Congratulations, NR, you win dumbest post award in today’s thread.
With all of Joe Beese’s fine work, this was a very competitive category.
@Martin
Honestly, if you guys are going to bitch about Wyld’s nihilism, don’t practice it yourself. If you aren’t willing to see Manchin go down in flames for this late-game shit, you stand for nothing. You’re just a trash-bag partisan whore.
He took a rifle and shot a fake bill labeled ‘cap and trade’ on television. There have to be lines somewhere.
Cliff
Iranian, Chinese Computers Also Discovered to Have Been Hacking D.C. Internet Voting System
Startling testimony offered by the U. of Michigan computer science professor whose team penetrated D.C.’s ‘pilot program’ server for what was to have been a live election beginning in just days…
Lovely computerized voting, isn’t that lovely how stupid the admins were… oh well.
Martin
@NR:
Unpopular with who? Even Democrats like tax cuts. Expanding Medicare was unpopular with who on the left or center? Iraq was the only policy that was even marginally unpopular, and that wasn’t so much a majority opposition as a very committed minority opposition up against tepid support (but majority support nonetheless).
Bush’s legislative victories were popular. They were things that also helped get some Democrats reelected – tax cuts are an evil carrot to hang before a legislator. The objection wasn’t against doing Medicare D, but how to do it. And with all of that, Bush got less done in his first term than Obama has in his first half term. Most of Bush’s success was wielding executive power. Most of Obama’s success is legislative.
300baud
I don’t know that I agree with their approach, but I could see two lines of reasoning that aren’t insane.
One is saying damn the strategy, there are times when an injustice demands action if you’re to retain your self-respect. Or, alternatively, if you want others to respect you.
The other is that the lesson we should learn is that the Dems didn’t spend enough time in the wilderness to turn them into a hungry, disciplined, effective party, so it’s fine, and perhaps better in the long run, if the Republicans get elected again.
NR
@Bob Loblaw: Facts are never dumb. They may be inconvenient, but they are not dumb.
Joe Beese
Obama did not say he would triple American ground forces in Afghanistan.
He did not say he would murder hundreds of civilians and several soldiers of an allied nation with CIA drone attacks. An allied nation with dozens of nuclear weapons. And an unstable government. During one of the worst natural disasters in modern history.
He did not say he would authorize the execution of American citizens without trial.
If he had said these this, we would have rightly condemned him as a bloodthirsty madman. And someone beside Rick Warren would have had to participate in the inauguration.
Barb (formerly gex)
@JenJen: Ooh, yeah, that will be fun. Let’s see: child of an immigrant, minority, female, gay, atheist. Yup, the ashes of America will be a super fun place for me!
JMY
Here’s the underlying issue: I don’t have a problem when people complain about Obama, criticize Obama, or are disappointed in something he did or didn’t do. There are plenty of things that he has done or did that disappoint me, but I don’t expect him to be perfect and I think too many people thought that he would be this perfect president who will make all our problems go away, when in reality politics and government don’t work that way. Even if I think it’s getting annoying, the criticism is great because it keeps those in office honest, it engages the public by putting the debate out there.
My problem is with those who pretend the world is ending b/c Obama didn’t do this or he did that; Obama said this, didn’t mention that; He nominated this person, when he should have nominated that person, and I could go on. I’m willing to give this man 8 years to improve this country, if people were willing to give Bush 8 years to fuck it up.
Joe Buck
It’s entirely appropriate to pressure Obama to end DADT, because he can do it all by himself. He already has the tool he needs: he’s commander-in-chief, and he can suspend all DADT firings by declaring an emergency. Obama could have blocked Daniel Choi’s dismissal; all he would have to do is use emergency powers: issue a declaration that the military can’t afford to lose any more highly trained linguists, for example. He could also pull a Jerry Brown and tell his DoJ to stop defending anti-gay laws. But he didn’t lift a finger.
It’s pointless to claim that it would be better to fight to get a few more Democrats that will push DADT repeal over the top. The Dems are going to lose seats. It’s pretty much now or never. If the left doesn’t pressure Democrats, only the right will, and Democrats will just enact Republican policies in slow motion.
Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle
@Nick: How can an executive order be overturned(as long as Obama is still President)?
mai naem
Link to Grijalva in trouble? I find it hard to believe Grijalva is in trouble in his district. This guy is truly a mainstay long long term pol in the public servant model in his district. He’s in a heavily Hispanic/minority district. I think the district even covers part of the college area of Tucson.
Belvoir
Yes, it’s clumsy- seeming , and not the right time. The thing is, it is never the right time to bring up unseemly gay issues. It is never ever the right time.
And I don’t know why John Cole is acting as if this seriously minor tiny protest was such a big goddamned deal. Calling them “firebaggers” and all.
Gay people are quite used to being told that “it’s not the right time” to fight for their rights. It’s something I’ve heard as an adult for the past twenty-five years. I don’t care for Cole’s snideness that this tiny band of protesters ought to have consulted the DNC or something to get pencilled in on the calendar fro when they are allowed to protest the pretty vicious way this country treats its gay people, in the army or not.
This is a petulant bullshit post, JC. A totally minor protest you are making into a big deal here. Yeah, a shame that protesting for the rights of gay people that are held in questionable status most of the time isn’t held off until some Democratic victory. At which point the Democratic Party throws the gays under the bus (yes, stupid clichè I know) and it starts all over again.
No, you tell me John Cole why gay citizens should have to wait, again, over and over again, for decades now. Stop painting gay people as some sorts of petulant , deamanding “Firebaggers”, bringing in you own stupid quarrel with Hamsher.
Jack-shit to do with gay peoples’ lives, how demeaning. Sorry you’re so offended pal, that the freaking queers didn’t schedule it better. Some minor demonstration. So how fucking long should gay people wait, in the name of political expediency?
Obama and the Democrats actually don’t give a damn about gay people. We know that. Just stop grinding your teeth and spitting with distaste at every pro-gay demonstration that doesn’t suit your idea of political strategy. Don’t wag your finger at us and bring attention to this minor demonstration and tell us to shut up and sit down and your “firebagger” bullshit.
We’re not dogs, we’re citizens, and we’ve been told to “wait” forever.
Don’t order us to sit and be quiet. Gee, sorry civil rights bothers you at an inopportune time politically. The people who have to live with the consequences of an unjust policy might beg to differ.
Let me know if you ever imagine yourself in a world where you’re forbidden to marry the person you love, John Cole. I sort of doubt that you could. But yeah, gays are just a ridiculous drag on the Democratic party with their complaining. Wait, just wait. Yeah, we wait, and are always betrayed.
(No I don’t mean that Obama should legalize gay marriage, or eliminate DADT with the stroke of a pen. I just want to give a hearty fuck-you to “well-meaning liberals” that constantly say that gay people always have to just take the brunt of disillusionment and a certain amount of mockery that anyone would dream of acting politically in their interests. No, let’s call them stupid firebaggers, let’s make one aspect of human life subject to a political vote. And look askance at a minority that dares to uh, not fucking wait for Superman here. )
Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle
@Martin: I think the point was that all the Blue Dogs love to vote with Republicans but are loath to vote with their own party.
WyldPirate
@Peter:
Just going by the examples of history Peter. The Roman Empire, Persians, Mongols, British Empire and many more. where the fuck are they now? The ash heap of history or mere shadows of their former “glory”, that’s where.
We are no different. We aren’t immune to the same fate that befell those societies.
Sorry you don’t like my fatalism or pragmatism or whatever the fuck you want to call it. If it makes you feel better to rail at me instead of the GLBT folks that are bitching, feel free. It won’t change the fact that our little “experiment” in democracy will end up in the same dustbin as all of the rest that have come before us.
History is on my side. But feel free to clap louder and chant “USA! USA! WE’RE NUMBER 1!” all you want.
Joe Beese
It’s Cole and company who think that Republicans retaking the House means hooded men on horseback burning science textbooks.
Oh dear, you mean they might block Obama’s wonderful agenda? They’re doing that with no difficulty even as a minority.
Martin
@Bob Loblaw:
Oh, I agree it’s over the line, but it’s a far more minor offense than anything Senate Majority Leader DeMint will toss out there. We’re stuck with Manchin as our candidate. Best we can hope to do is get him elected and hope that as the most junior Senator he STFU and primary him when he’s up for re-election.
I’m pragmatic. I’m not suicidal.
HippiePuncher
@mai naem: Polling. Yea, it’s automated from a GOP firm, but still. Not what one would expect. Also, Palin endorsed his opponent tonight.
RareSanity
Jeebus, the pouting peanut gallery in the comments is just fucking pathetic.
Why the fuck didn’t you organize candidates to primary the incumbent Dems that you hold in such disdain? Wait, I know why, that’s hard…Blaming the President because this country hasn’t turned into a liberal utopia, in two years, now that’s a cause you can get behind!
You make me sick. I want all of the same policies enacted because I believe them to be the right things to do. However, I believe this in spite of you. If I were someone that were on the fence about any one of the policies that you are ready to burn down the country on, I would tell you to fuck off and actively work against you.
The best hope anyone has of any of those policies getting adopted is to keep Republicans as far away from power as possible, what the fuck is wrong with you?
Bob Loblaw
@NR:
Is it inconvenient to point out that people above the poverty line will have the future option of Medicaid enrollment? Is it inconvenient to point out that those new Medicaid enrollees account for half of that 30 million, thus obliterating your dumbass claim? Or did Medicaid just become another corporate scam the denies patients “real health care?”
There are legitimate avenues for criticizing PPACA. Your ignorant ass isn’t even in the ballpark. And that’s just the baseline reading.
JenJen
@Graeme:
JMY
@Joe Beese:
So them closing that gap and possibly taking over is better? It’s amazing how much the president and this Democratic controlled Congress got done, with all the Republican obstructionism & the Blue Dogs. How do you expect him to get anything done with even less of a majority or possibly having his party be in the minority?
Martin
@NR: There’s no law requiring you to get for-profit insurance. In fact, most insurance policies aren’t from for-profit insurers. I’m not even sure most of the for-profits are going to survive this as individual insurers – they’re already stopping certain products. They’ll survive providing group policies, and the non-profits and not-for-profits will be left doing individual policies (and group).
The public option propaganda was over the top and not grounded in reality. Don’t believe your own propaganda.
PhoenixRising
@Joe Beese:
Yeah, because we were pouring the cash that we don’t have into the DNC’s pockets otherwise.
This vein of posts makes John look a lot dumber than he is. It’s unpossible that anyone smart enough to avoid being eaten by Tunch actually believes that gay people were going to keep up the ATM status during this unprecedented dip in the post-WWII economy if the Obama admin HAD kept its many specific and achievable promises.
John, they’re out of money! That’s why they aren’t giving it! I love that my people are making a fucking sideshow out of the ignored broken promises that have followed the money they shoveled into the last 3 elections. It’s bold, it’s funny and it shows panache. But it’s not important, in the way it would be important if anyone truly thought that refusing to give money would influence policy.
WyldPirate
@Martin:
short memory you have there, MArtin.
He got through Medicare bill by holding the vote open an unprecedented amount of time. It was done on reconciliation too.
Social security after his mandate went down in flames. I don’t remember people being particularly happy about Katrina, all of the wire-tapping, and a boat load of other shit.
As bad as things are now, the “right-track, wrongtrack” numbers were much higher than they are now.
Bush was pretty damned effective at holding all of the Rethugs together. He had their balls in a vice in the Senate compared to Obama with the Blue Dogs.
KCinDC
@Cliff, the only thing I object to in the reporting is the sensational headline about Iran and China. Halderman made clear that he didn’t think the attacks from Iranian and Chinese computers were anything specifically targeting the DC voting system. They’re just the sorts of random attacks that any server on the Internet gets subjected to.
NR
@Bob Loblaw: Is it inconvenient to point out that the Medicaid expansion isn’t worth the paper it’s printed on because the states have no money to fund it?
I’m not sure there are legitimate avenues for defending PPACA, but even if there are, your ignorant ass isn’t even in the ballpark.
Ailuridae
@NR:
Dumbass, nearly half of the health care bill is an expansion of fucking Medicaid. And since Medicaid is so fucking inexpensive somewhere between 16 and 17M people will be covered under that program. So, no, you stupid fucking ass hole 30M people will not be buying private insurance. This isn’t FDL or whatever rock you crawled out from under; a whole lot of people know PPACA backwards and forwards.
And more importantly, as someone who is actually in the individual insurance market I can say with absolute certainty that PPACA will increase the quality of insurance sold in even competitive markets like here in IL.
There is the separate issue that people who are advocating for the public option are under the ignorant impression that the reason for it being valuable is to lower the cost of insurance for people. That’s not the case – if you’re paying full dollar for insurance it’ll likely only be 5% cheaper than private insurance.
Yes, private insurance companies are unnecessary middle men. But, no, they are not the villains in the American health care tragedy. That is almost solely doctors and providers gouging customers. Now that might be an uncomfortable truth but that’s the reality.
Wile E. Quixote
@WyldPirate:
Would you care to enlighten me as to the difference between you and all of the fuckheads who are going Galt? All of this “Let’s burn down the Republic so something can arise anew from the ashes strikes me as being as completely stupid and juvenile as anything the Randroids are saying.
Martin
@Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle: But they voted with their own party. They voted to repeal DADT (except for a few last-minute switches that Reid approved when it was clear it wouldn’t pass). They all voted for HCR, for FinReg, for all of the other things. Nothing would have passed the Senate if they hadn’t voted for it all. And that’s not just the conservadems but Lieberman as well.
In the House, some Dems were allowed to vote against it to help them in their races after Pelosi was convinced that it’d pass. That’s politics. When it matters, the votes are coming through. Where they aren’t coming through is from the GOP.
That's Master of Accountancy to You, Pal (JMN)
@Joe Buck:
No, he can’t. READ THE FUCKING LAW. It says that the President can prevent the separation of a soldier that he deems is essential to national security. THAT PARTICULAR SOLDIER. Nowhere does it give him the power to declare an emergency that allows him to prevent discharges altogether.
The situation was different during the early portion of the Bush administration when the services were not meeting their recruiting goals. Under that condition, Bush was able to plausibly claim that there were large number of specialties (and it was never all of them) where each person was critical because there was no one to replace them.
There are very, very few specialties of which that is true right now. Preventing the discharge of any servicemember is not essential to national security would be a clear violation of the law.
Left Coast Tom
@Joe Beese:
As for the first part (“triple…ground forces”), what part of Iraq being a distraction from Afghanistan was confusing?
As for the drone part, I denounce the reliance upon aerial combat as a cost-reducing substitute for ground forces, I think it’s quite likely to lead to exactly the outcomes you describe. Of course, that suggests that even more ground forces would be required to do what Obama said he’d do during the campaign.
I don’t think it’s reasonable to characterize Pakistan as an “ally”, certainly I’d never characterize a primary supporter of the Taliban as such. I agree it’s unstable.
I am disappointed with Obama over the ‘war on terra” aspects of civil liberties issues.
Mark S.
@Cliff:
I’m curious what that password was. “VOTE”? “WORD”? “ABCD”?
But at least the relevant public officials were all there being apprised of the situation:
WyldPirate
@Joe Beese:
This. A million times over.
Dems look like a disorganized mob in comparison and they roll over and bare their bellies at the drop of a hat. Milque-fucking-toast pussies.
NO FUCKING SPINE AT ALL. EVEN IN THE WHITE HOUSE.
And fuck ya’ll. I meant to yell.
Wile E. Quixote
@That’s Master of Accountancy to You, Pal (JMN):
No shit. WyldPirate is going to be in a world of shit during the coming anarchy. I mean we all are, but if everything goes to Hell I think that he’s going to be about as well off as the average Randroid who talks about going Galt.
Ailuridae
@NR:
The initial Medicaid expansion in the health care bill is funded 100% on the federal governments end and then scales down to 90% in 2020. If the people bitching about the bill wanting to do a lot of good for a lot of people they would push to keep that rate at 100% and then fund all of medicaid at the federal level as well.
Medicaid is a state budget buster and when it is needed most are the times when state revenues from taxation are the lowest – like now.
suzanne
@Ash Can: Yanno, about half the time, she LOVES the ball. Runs like hell after it and brings it back. And the other half of the time, she just doesn’t give a flying fuck at a rolling doughnut. But we have fun.
Peter
@WyldPirate: I call it your overdramatic cynicism and my objection to it is not the factuality – prognisticating the future based on history is a pointless endeavour. Rather, I’m a little freaked out by how happy you seem to be about the prospect.
Steve
No one trolls his own blog like John Cole, that’s for sure.
KCinDC
@Ailuridae, even if insurers were just unnecessary middlemen, that would make them a kind of villain in my book. But they’re far worse than that, with rescission and preexisting-conditions policies. Fortunately that will eventually all be going away.
I only wish they’d not set up the bill so that so much of it wouldn’t be taking effect for so many years. It’s hard to beat people’s fears (mainly whipped up by the GOP) by telling them to imagine a faraway system that will exist in 2014 and after. I really don’t understand how the Democrats expected that to work politically.
Martin
@NR: And that’s why the tax exemption for health benefits over a certain amount is going away, and why CMS and the new independent payment advisory board are going to crank down costs.
Ailuridae
@Joe Buck:
It’s entirely appropriate to pressure Obama to end DADT, because he can do it all by himself. He already has the tool he needs: he’s commander-in-chief, and he can suspend all DADT firings by declaring an emergency. Obama could have blocked Daniel Choi’s dismissal; all he would have to do is use emergency powers: issue a declaration that the military can’t afford to lose any more highly trained linguists, for example. He could also pull a Jerry Brown and tell his DoJ to stop defending anti-gay laws. But he didn’t lift a finger.
Err, that isn’t how an executive order would work. Obama could issue one that (rightfully) claimed that losing Arabic linguists was a national security concern. But that would only apply to Arab linguists. If you’re a gunnery seargant you are piss out of luck if Obama goes that way.
Don K
@gbear:
Twenty minutes my ass. I’m 56 now, and I’ve known I was gay since I was 14. That’s 42 years, and all we got was the hate crimes bill (good to have in a retributive kind of way, but not something that will affect the everyday life of too many GLBT’s). With ENDA, DADT repeal, UAFA, and DOMA repeal still to go, and given there is this large of a Dem majority about every thirty years, and given they seem capable of passing one item of interest to GLBT Americans per Congress, it will take about 160 years to get to equality. Sorry if I’m not willing to wait that long.
Yes, I’ll be out on 11/2, and I’ll vote for any Dem who is in favor of my rights (Bernero for MI governor and Peters for Congress in MI-9 are solid), but I’m damned if I’ll let any of my money go to anyone who is actively working against me.
Cacti
Wait a second.
I thought the firebagger left said they’d be satisfied with noble failure.
The Dems came through on DADT. They couldn’t overcome the filibuster because “moderate” Susan Collins was a feckless liar (big surprise).
Wile E. Quixote
@WyldPirate:
Oh yeah, like a whiny little shit like you is in any position to talk about anyone else being spineless.
wmd
@RareSanity:
Do the names Bill Halter and Joe Sestak ring any bells?
Odie Hugh Manatee
@RareSanity:
I think they’re upset at the fact that the teabaggers have so many supporters that helped them get out ‘their’ candidates to primary the Repubs. The teabaggers have the right-wing on-air gasbags, Faux Nooz, the Republican party, lots of billionaires & millionaires, big business, the financial markets, Armey/Freedumb Werks, Rove and on and on and on, all on their side. All of them working in concert to achieve their goals. And who do the manic progressives have that is doing the same thing for them?
Nobody of note, so they do the only thing they can with what little power they have; they sit out elections and want to encourage others to do the same to support their argument(s). Of course this makes it easier for the right to win but that just doesn’t matter when the whole world is against you. I can see how they could have put a lot of (unrealistic) hope into Obama and are bitter about things once again not going their way. How they could believe that their goals are so good, just and noble that if Obama would have just stood up, pounded the bully pulpit and ‘did the right things’ then the Democrats would have followed him like the Pied Piper, the Republicans would either follow or be shamed as the evil pricks they are and the his rating in the public would be 98% instead of 48%. Everything would have turned out fine and dandy, if only…
Ponies indeed.
Peter
@WyldPirate: Also what the fuck, the British Empire didn’t burn to the ground and start from scratch. Last time I checked, the UK is still there and still functional. It may not be much of an [i]empire[/i] anymore but history doesn’t feature it ‘burning to ashes’.
KCinDC
I should’ve said that rescission is gone on new policies as of last month, which means that individuals now have a fighting chance of buying insurance that’s something other than a scam. Previously as an individual if you developed any really expensive health problem (you know, the sort of thing you buy insurance for) then the company would go through your application and medical history with a fine-toothed comb and find some reason to retroactively cancel your insurance because you committed “fraud” by making some mistake on their multipage form.
Though I don’t think rescission will be truly gone until exclusions for preexisting conditions are banned in 2014. Until then the insurers can probably figure out a way to call certain sorts of omissions fraud and cancel you. After that, though, omitting evidence of a preexisting condition should be irrelevant.
beergoggles
Obama could have:
1. Issued a stop-loss order on DADT implementation.
2. Instructed the DOJ to not appeal the court decision that struck down DADT.
Get equal should be making his ass as uncomfortable as possible until they get some results since we all know how well the repeal vote went in the senate after all the promises that options 1 & 2 won’t be followed in order to get the votes they needed.
Edit: And yes, I’ve donated to individual Dems, not to the party.
RareSanity
@wmd:
Exactly.
Aim all of this energy at the right targets, Congressional Dems. The President can’t sign anything that doesn’t get out of Congress. The President is not the problem right now.
JMY
@WyldPirate:
Okay, find me someone who has a spine, who can do what Pelosi, Reid, & Obama was able to accomplish, given the tense climate not only within our own government, but in the country.
RareSanity
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
Crabs in a bucket…
Ailuridae
@KCinDC:
To pass a geeky reference if health insurers are the villain in teh american health care comic book they are Toad, while the Doctors and Hospitals are fucking Magneto.
@Mark S.:
Some routers off the shelf use 1234 as the password.
KCinDC
Okay, enough of the circular whining squad. It’s 3 weeks till the election. Until then, no whining, no whining about whining, no whining about whining about whining, etc. Concentrate on beating Republicans and supporting the Democrats you can support.
Ailuridae
@KCinDC:
Though I don’t think rescission will be truly gone until exclusions for preexisting conditions are banned in 2014. Until then the insurers can probably figure out a way to call certain sorts of omissions fraud and cancel you. After that, though, omitting evidence of a preexisting condition should be irrelevant.
Yep, that’s my reading on it as well. Immediate recission removal is an improvement and then is basically fully locked into law once the only pricing components become smoking preference and age (although I suppose one could be dropped for lying about either of those).
Martin
@Cacti:
Yeah, they say that. All they wanted was for Dems to force a vote on DADT. Well, they did. Didn’t change a fucking thing.
I don’t begrudge anyone for being pissed. But don’t tell the Dems that you just want them to fight when you really just want them to win. You want them to win, then let them win it right – a legislative repeal. Permanent. No fucking around with ping-ponging executive orders for the next 20 years.
slag
Wait. I’ve read this thread before. Pretty much every day for the last several weeks. Is there a glitch in the matrix somewhere?
BGinCHI
@KCinDC: Yes. Wouldn’t it be better to donate time and money to Dems who support your causes and leave the high profile self-sabotage to the other side?
The GOP is the enemy, full stop. So, put the pressure on the Prez and the party by trying to get the most progressive Dems elected. And that means, early on, supporting primaries against shitty centrist Dems.
But seriously, attacking the Dem Prez three weeks before the midterms? Look up fucking Pyrrhic Victory in the goddamn dictionary.
Joseph Nobles
A couple of friends of mine are really upset about the Manchin ad, but not for the reason you’d think. He stole their act!
RareSanity
@slag:
Nice.
wmd
They aren’t uniformly saying sit out elections.
Most FDl types will be voting. Some will be volunteering for candidates – Feingold, Grijalva, Grayson come to mind. Last night an Alaskan FDL diarist posted some good video about why Lisa Murkowski cannot win and why a Democrat can – and that video was well received even though it was acknowledged that Scott McAdams isn’t a particularly progressive Democrat.
What FDL isn’t doing is GOTV organizing for a broad range of Democratic politicians.
I don’t blindly support Jane, I think there is a real element of personality cult at FDL that’s dangerous and antithetical to advancing good policy. That said FDL supported Obama’s call for more infrastructure spending today.
There seems to be some disagreement on what can be done with an executive order. Saying that service members in certain specialties can’t be discharged under DADT seems like something he could do. Who has standing to sue to overturn the EO? Wouldn’t it be insubordination for a military officer to sue? DoJ has same issue. How would the order be found illegal?
Dee Loralei
@NR: Bush got his way with Republicans voting lock-step for everything he wanted and they brought over their BlueDog brethren, who in another place and time would be full on sane Republicans. Bush got his way because the WhiteHouse played politics with every issue, they threatened and cajoled and arm-twisted and then threatened some more until the vote fell their way. They held open floor votes long past the 15 minute expiration. They kept at it even when they didn’t have the votes, until they had the votes. They used the bully pulpit to trumpet “up or down votes” etc. Those people were fucking master manipulators of Congress, of the Media and the public. Bush and Karl Rove were Masters of the Congress, hell LBJ was only Master of the Senate, Bush demanded and took control of both houses of Congress. And for 4 years he got exactly everything he asked for and gave nothing back to the NorthEast Reps or to the Blue Dog Dems or even to the Lion of the Senate, TeddyK., who got Bush his greatest bipartisan victory.
As they sowed, so did they reap. After winning re-election, in 2005, Bush declared he had a mandate! A Mandate! I tell ya! For privatizing Social Security. That he had political capitol and he was thus spending it on privatization. After many months a many many trips to the hinterlands, Bush and the Republicans backed down on SS Privatization. AT the same time, after the election during Easter Recesss, Terri Schiavo occured; most humans felt the Republicans went too far, took too much from her husband, took away too much freedom of choice. And finally folks started pulling away from the blinders that Bush and Rove had placed on them since September 11. ( Bush was not very popular during the Summer of 2001, Enron, Chandra Levy and I think some shark attacks……
Then Bush tried to rally us around allowing our ports being taken over and run by foreign corporations, especially an Islamic company ( Dubai World). We said absolutely no! Hell No! to that as well. Bush realized that 3+ years of saying/not saying Islam was our friend/enemy left little wiggle room when is came to something as important as our ports.
He never recovered from these things, but recovery was still possible………
And then Katrina……………
No going back to blue skies after that storm. The culmination of bad news in Iraq and then the collapse of our financial system just sealed the deal for Bush. That man and everone he holds dear, and all his promoters and his party need to wallow in a generations’ long wallow of self-pity and self-loathing and come out on the other side with some new ideas. But our Republican bretheren have decided to make this a double down on the stupid and insane year.
And to any of you fuckers who think that will show the masses… you are more fucking stupid than any teapartier. You are the Alvin Green of good intentions and abject stupidity. And I think Alvin Greene has a good soul and good intentions. But if you vote to inflict a more Republican Congress upon us, then you are abject sadists.
We are never going to get what we want or need from any Republican. We might get it in a few years from the Democrats.
And those of you who think we’re an Empire in decline, well sure I can see that, I get historically why you are leaning that way and thinking in that direction. I just don’t fucking get why you think it’d be better for your fellow citizens, say 30-100+ Million of us to get it so fast and so hard now, just so you can be right. That’s just petty and republican think.
Ok, I’m going out of town for work, lambast me all you willl, I won’t be here to defend.
John, I tried to give money through your ACT Blue link, but I only have a work credit card, so I don’t know what to do.
wmd
@RareSanity:
Seems like some hard work was done in both these cases – Bill Halter in particular had strong backing from Jane, and Sestak did to some extent too. Both were opposed by Obama.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@RareSanity:
That made me lol. Bad! Bad!
@slag:
We’re in the Groundhog Day Matrix.
SIA
I have a cousin about my age who is a contractor in NVA. He gave up on his health insurance when the industry crashed. He has had some serious neuralgia and other health issues (despite being a very fit and healthy guy), and therefore he would be uninsurable were he to try to get reinstated. I started telling him about the high risk pool and some of the other coming benefits of HCR, and he just stared at me, dumbfounded. Probably one of the few times in his life that he could see an actual benefit, for him personally, of legislation.
I’m sick of this whining from our own side. . Fuck the lefties who, as Martin mentioned, want to hold their breaths till they pass out because of…what? Really, what? Everything they want hasn’t magically happened in less than two years in the face of a crippling economy and the most massive obstructive wall in the history of man (aka GOP)? Obama didn’t turn badass on January 22nd and kick everyone’s ass? Do people not realize what this administration is up against? The malcontents can go mutter in the corner. Everybody else vote and take someone with you.
Christ.
Wile E. Quixote
Here’s a question: At any time during Bush’s administration did anti-abortion fundamentalists protest any event he was attending because he hadn’t repealed Roe v. Wade yet? If they ever did I never heard about it.
This group of LGBT activists has about the same political acumen as the Log Cabin Republicans. I wonder where these ratfuckers are getting their money from and I wonder why they’re not out protesting against asswipes like Carl Palladino or Jim DeMint.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@slag: Heh. Indeedy.
@BGinCHI:
That’s my strategery, I quit giving to party orgs years ago. I give to invidual pols and their PACs. I figure Al Franken or Barbara Boxer having fat warchests advances progressive causes more than I can do in a purple state where the Blue Dogs are barely holding on. I saw today that MoveOn is running some tough ads against Kirk in Illinois, so I might give them some scratch.
slag
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
It disturbs me to think of John Cole as a Bill Murray-Keanu Reeves hybrid. And yet…it seems right somehow.
Nerull
@Joe Beese:
So lets work through the logic here.
Congress will never move on DADT unless they are dragged through it. If it becomes less of an issue, it’s never getting repealed.
Obama signs an executive order. Congress drops DADT for good.
Thanks in part to your efforts, President Batshit Insane gets into office, reverses the executive order. DADT is back. Congress will not consider it. It’s here to stay for a while. Congratu-fucking-lation.
That's Master of Accountancy to You, Pal (JMN)
@beergoggles:
No, he can’t. Read. The. Fucking. Law. It’s in the US Code.
No, he can’t. Again, Obama takes his office seriously. He can only decline to appeal the decision if he actually thinks DADT is unconstitutional. Not a bad idea. Not a hideously destructive idea. Unconstitutional.
I happen to agree with him on this. I don’t see how DADT is unconstitutional. It’s a bad idea. It’s hideously destructive policy. I don’t think it’s unconstitutional. Given that, refusing to appeal would be a dereliction of his duty, and a abrogation of his oath.
BGinCHI
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Yepper, that’s the way to go.
I won’t give the DNC another penny after the Blanche Lincoln/Bill Halter bullshit. Straight to Act Blue or to a candidate directly.
Kirk is a fucking liar and a North Shore Ritchie Rich. Alexi ain’t perfect, but at least he won’t screw the pooch.
WyldPirate
@Peter:
Nice way to combine two separate posts of mine, Peter. You build strawmen for a living?
You can also work on your pathetic reading comprehension. I specifically said that “…some are a mere shadow of their former selves.” I was specifically referring to the British Empire and acknowledging that it still existed.
Nice try, but you’re way overmatched and starting to look fucking foolish.
asiangrrlMN
I don’t think this kind of protest is necessarily effective, but I am perplexed as to the vitriol that comes up every single fucking time Cole posts something about queer folks doing something to show their displeasure. It seems disproportionate to what actually is occurring, and yes, I include Cole in this field.
Obama doesn’t support gay marriage (so he has said recently). That’s not under debate. Again, I personally don’t give a shit because I have no intention of marrying anyone, but again, I can see the frustration.
I have given to the Dems for several reasons, but I must admit it is with little to no enthusiasm. The Dems (such as the Blue Dawgs) are not making it easy to support them. The only reason I do is because I know the other side is so much fucking worse. And, as Barb noted, as the daughter of immigrants, and a bi Asian American agnostic female, I do not like my chances in the New World Order.
I have never voted Republican in my life (third party a few times), and I most likely never will. However, I can’t help but be a little resentful that they keep hawking me for money when I am so clearly not the base.
@gbear: OK. I agree with you there. And, I cannot make the candlelight vigil on Thursday (couldn’t restructure my schedule) so do not look for the fat Asian chick in a Tunchie shirt, with tats and ass-length hair.
gbear
@Don K:
Guess what. I’m 56 too. I’ve known I was gay for about the same amount of time as you. I’ve also spent that time learning how to recognize who’s on my side and who shouldn’t be considered a friend. I’ve learned a lot from the local community council about how and when to pick battles. What I’ve learned tells me that we should be doing everything in our power to see that republican candidates don’t win next month. For one more month, this trumphs all other concerns. This is our last shot at sane government.
Joe Beese
When Congress was taking a vote that could have led to DADT repeal, Obama did nothing to influence them. He was busy calling the WNBA champions.
Obama’s inaction on LGBT issues is not the fault of the Republicans. It is not the fault of Jane Hamsher. It is not the fault of legal strictures.
It is the fault of his being a bigot.
wmd
US Code title 10, section 654
Gates issues a determination that separation of members is not in the best interest of the armed forces. Or Obama issues an EO to the same effect.
Who is going to sue to get the determination thrown out?
For that matter DoJ doesn’t have to appeal the ruling by a Federal court that DADT is unconstitutional.
WyldPirate
@Wile E. Quixote:
He didn’t. Carefully screened audiences. Special protest venues way out of the line of sight of King George the Dunce and the teevee cameras. For the stray “thug’ protestor that got through, there were always goons to hustle them away.
SATSQ.
Peter
@WyldPirate: Ooh, intellectual tough-guyism, I love this game.
I admit I did miss the tail line about ‘pale shadows etc’ but that doesn’t make the British Empire’s inclusion any less crippling to your own argument. That post was, I should remind you, written as a defense of the position that the only solution to the problems that ail the US is a razing and rebuilding. You argued that historical precedent made it inevitable…and then cited the example of the British Empire, which is around and has certainly never been destroyed and rebuilt.
Mark
@Belvoir –
Tell me this: we’ve got 50 million people without health insurance. Why do we have nothing to offer them but shit for the next three years followed by half-assed overpriced insurance in 2014?
With so many people hurting, why indeed should the focus of the Democratic party be “unseemly gay issues”?
Look, in 2008, gay people swung to McCain and Palin. Don’t think the Democratic party didn’t take notice. We’ve got all kinds of people telling us the Dems are worse than the Rs on gay issues and seemingly every gay politician is a Republican. It’s all horseshit, but it gives good insight into your thought process.
If you’re a single-issue Democratic voter and you’ll start voting Republican once you get what you want, despite their bigotry, then I don’t see why your single issue should be a priority.
asiangrrlMN
@Joe Beese: 2 freaking Dems voted against as did every fucking Republican. Are you telling me that they would have listened to Obama? Not a chance. Please.
@BGinCHI: Or what you said.
@Mark: Well, your remark is telling into your insight as well. Queers should just go along and get along until the time is right in some vague future time. There’s always going to other issues that are pressing. In my opinion, Obama did start pushing against DADT in the last six months or so, which is all I want right now. Before that, he and the Dems seemed content to let it slide. I just want to see that they give the issues SOME thought.
BGinCHI
@Joe Beese: With this kind of insider knowledge I can only assume that you are Bob Woodward.
Bob, if you haven’t noticed, Obama didn’t get what he wanted on a whole bunch of issues the past couple of years. He doesn’t have a magic wand like Harry Potter. He can’t wish these things into being.
He is NOT a magic fairy.
Bob Loblaw
@asiangrrlMN:
I think it hurts Obama supporters’ feelings to have him attacked on this front without as much of a comeback as they might like. There isn’t that sparkling “momentous civil rights achievement” glow hovering around so much these days, and it makes them feel a little squeamish. They’d prefer these gay activists have no legs to stand on here.
JMY
@Joe Beese:
Stopped reading right there. Because it is false. He may not have ended DADT or DOMA, but to say there has been inaction on LGBT issues is complete bullshit.
Then I read:
Unbelievable. The president is a bigot because he hasn’t ended DADT or DOMA. So he hates gays even though he is on your side of the issue. When I hear Obama calling gays “fags” or saying you should teach if you are gay, then you can call him a bigot.
BGinCHI
@Bob Loblaw: I got this one.
Fuck you. I don’t care about Obama’s feelings. I do care about letting nutjob Republicans get control of the Congress, in which case gay issues will be down the list right after the Humane Society, and you can already see how that’s going.
We aren’t defending Obama so much as the necessity of incrementalism in the actual country we live in.
Not Middle Earth.
Apologies Asiangrrl if I misspeak.
asiangrrlMN
@JMY: I don’t believe Obama is a bigot, but he does struggle with homophobia as evidence by him being against same-sex marriage. I think this is a legitimate observation as he has said it himself (through his people) that he believes marriage is between one man and one woman.
@BGinCHI: You’re doing great. You go!
@suzanne: Yep. That’s my thinking, too. And, ultimately, this little protest really doesn’t even matter a hill of beans. People need to vent. That’s pretty much to what this amounts. By the way, Luna is gorgeous, and you sound exactly as I hear you in my head.
TheYankeeApologist
@Belvoir:
Oh sweet Jeebus, where do I even begin with this?
How about this: SHUT THE FUCK UP. I know. People have been holding you down. It is a terrible position to be in. It leads to frustration and blog comments that have a lot more emotion than cognitive thinking.
How many years after the Civil Rights Act is it? Funny, black people still hear the “N” word all the time. It’s sometimes harder for them to get jobs. In Arizona, you can get pulled over, searched, and made to present 30 forms of ID just because you are Hispanic, or if you even LOOK Hispanic. Women make less than men, rape is still prevalent in our culture, and still have to deal with a disparity in sexual culture (Just like at the Democratic nominee in Virginia, Krystal Ball, to see how easy women are to ratfuck).
Gays still have it very hard. This is undeniable. . . . but if a Republican was President, do you think we’d even be having this conversation? Do you think it’d be up for a VOTE? The change is coming – have you seen how Dan Savage’s viral video “You’re Not Alone” is tearing up the intert00bz? Gay rights are in the national zeitgeist like never before, and to act like they aren’t because you can’t get married tomorrow is childish to say the very, very least. Maybe this all seems like bullshit to you because I’m a straight, white male. Fine. I just think shooting the guys on your side of the lines because they aren’t shooting back fast enough is political suicide for your issue du jour. But hey – it’s your thing. Do what you want to do.
WyldPirate
@Wile E. Quixote:
I am in awe of such a tough guy like you talking all tough on the intertoobz. what’s next? You gonna threaten to come kick my ass or something?
You may take this shit seriously…it’s amusement for me seeing dickheads like you getting all fired up over shit you have zero control over.
Now, I say, I say, run along boy, and fall off a cliff or some shit like that. Least you’re funny in the cartoons. ;)
suzanne
@asiangrrlMN:
I’m with you here. I absolutely vehemently totally and in all other ways disagree with the idea of not voting in protest or, worse, voting for the REALLY bad guys, but the idea that marginalized people should sit down and shut up ’cause it’s not good strategy is, quite frankly, insulting.
arguingwithsignposts
@Dee Loralei: This.
Martin
@Joe Beese:
Which Republican would have flipped? Name them. Even the Mainers are powerless to break party ranks, and they’re far and away your best bet here. Biden did make calls, and he’s really the guy you want doing it – he’s the guy they’ve known for 30 years, and he’s the guy that has the personal relationships to lean on.
This is just a variant of the ‘all we want them to do is fight!’ bullshit. You don’t want them to fight. You want them to win. That’s fine, I want them to win too – but Obama or Biden calling Republicans just prior an election for votes won’t result in jack shit, as we saw. What you really want them to do is change the nature of the Senate, which is simply beyond their power.
Brachiator
. I have never understood this kind of thinking, which is wholly lacking in any understanding of history. I don’t think that there has ever been a time in the past where a capitulation to authoritarianism has led to some kind of magical rebirth of right thinking people.
The mainstream GOP has no plan for anything, not the economy, not healthcare, not Iraq or Afghanistan. The Tea Party People have nothing to offer but anti-intellectualism, nativism, creationism, and a hysteric primitivism.
If you do not fight against this today, you might not get another opportunity to defeat it tomorrow.
arguingwithsignposts
@BGinCHI:
Wait, that Bully Pulpit ™ isn’t made of magic Unicorn dust? I’m turning in my Obot badge!
Bob Loblaw
@BGinCHI:
I don’t know what post you’re replying to, but it can’t possibly be mine. Unless you misread it.
I said that civil rights issues incite more visceral emotional responses than other hypothetical issues. And nobody likes having to be on the wrong side of them if they don’t absolutely have to. Hence the dissidence.
I don’t know what Obama’s feelings have to do with anything.
That's Master of Accountancy to You, Pal (JMN)
@wmd: Do you see the word “and” between (1) and (2) dipshit?
Joe Beese
I think it makes them frustrated and tantrum-y to be forced to defend the indefensible.
“I’m not comfortable with executing American citizens without trial either. But…”
“Drone bombing Pakistan civilians is regrettable. But…”
Sustaining that level of intellectual dishonesty must be taxing.
JMY
@asiangrrlMN: I still don’t see how he is struggling with homophobia.
arguingwithsignposts
You know, after the last few weeks of digging up and dragging around the carcass of health care, and now another round on the DADT merry-go-round, I’m really beginning to wonder if the GOP ratfucking hasn’t reached new levels of finely honed evil.
arguingwithsignposts
@Joe Beese:
I think it makes them tired of having to fight the same dishonest bullshit spewed by firebaggers like you because you didn’t get your Unicorn pony in the first week Obama was in office, and you’d rather throw Speaker Boehner into office than do something constructive.
Mark S.
@asiangrrlMN:
Seconded.
I’ll probably get flamed for this, but I don’t think Reid and the Senate Dems were really trying to get DADT repealed. I find it suspicious that Reid would only allow 3 amendments, and those 3 (DADT, DREAM, and some procedural thing that sounded to me like something that would have needed 2/3 to pass) seemed especially designed to piss off goopers. Could each side have gotten 3 amendments each? Why not make Susan put up or shut up: bring DADT to the floor as a stand alone bill.
I admit, I don’t have any clear proof of this. But after watching the Dems punt on voting on the Bush tax cuts, I am suspicious.
Martin
@asiangrrlMN: Actually, the 2 dems voted for the repeal and then changed their votes when Reid saw that no Republicans would vote to repeal. It’s on the record. Every Dem in the Senate + Lieberman voted to repeal.
Of course the whole bitching about it is just buying into the GOP strategy. If the GOP hadn’t filibustered it, it could have passed with 9 votes more than needed.
People just can’t seem to get this through their thick heads: Every vote requiring 60 to pass is the fault of the Republicans. Every one. All they have to do is not filibuster and let it go to a regular vote. They can still vote against the bill and have that on their side for the election, but the GOP is ACTIVELY preventing DADT from being repealed. As far as I’m concerned, they might as well all be standing there trying to enact it, making their case for why fags shouldn’t be in the military girling the place up.
Martin
@Mark S.: The deal was that the GOP should allow DADT and DREAM the 3rd amendment to get an up or down vote (no filibuster), and he’d allow *unlimited* amendments from Republicans.
The GOP couldn’t take the deal.
TheYankeeApologist
THIS, also too.
Martin
Anchor babies are stealing our jobs!
Nick
@wmd:
So you’re 1-1 and neither will likely be Senators next year.
BGinCHI
@Bob Loblaw:
Disingenuous, dude.
Cutting the legs out of gay activists to spare Obama’s feelings? Or our feelings about Obama’s “perfection”?
No. You miss the point accidentally or on purpose, or both.
If you’re looking for Obots around here, you’re gonna need a smaller boat.
goblue72
Its the same thing with the right wing Christianists always complaining about being the underdog aggrieved minority – as long as you never stop pissing in the punch powl whining about how unfair everything is, you never have to actually do the hard word involved in winning – and therefore, risking losing.
Man up and fight for every inch. Even if you lose you make sure the other guy was forced to fight you tooth and nail for every yard, every foot, every inch. Makes you stronger over the long haul so that next time you meet your opponent, you stand all the better ready to win.
WyldPirate
@Brachiator:
I made no claim that there would be some magical rebirth of “right thinking people”.
The only “fighting” I’ll do for now is going to the ballot box. I’ll vote for the “lesser of two evils”, which, I am sad to say, will have zero effect here in the Heart of Dixie as it always does.
I’m pessimistic because our country is full of thieves and idiots. I’m pessimistic because I’m old enough to remember when things were much better in many ways in this country (though I will readily admit some groups didn’t get the benefit of those better times). I’m pessimistic because I did all of the right things–went to school earned an MS and a PhD and worked my ass off–and I have yet to have as good a job with as good benefits as I did three days out of high school. I’m pessimistic because I see the writing on the wall that I’ll never be as well off as my father–who never graduated from high school.
I’ve fought and raged against the injustice in the world for for over 25 years now. I’ve volunteered, knocked on doors, Driven poor people and the disabled to the polls. Despite these efforts, things are in much worse shape than at any time in my adult life. They aren’t better and I see nothing but more decline on the horizon.
I’m sorry you may not be happy with this. Work and fight as hard as you wish. I’m not going to stop you.
Nick
@Joe Beese:
Because Obama has tons of influence over Congress, as evidenced by the recent vote on tax cuts Obama spent the better part of the month talking about.
why don’t you stop looking for reasons to blame Obama and blame the people actually preventing the problem from being solved.
mclaren
Certainly can’t argue with anything you’ve said. Obama is in way way over his head and that doesn’t change the fact that a reasonable person has no choice other than to vote Democratic.
I mean…it’s between some feckless spineless Democrats, and a party that runs a woman with a campaign video proclaiming “I am not a witch!”
So I’ll be voting Democratic and manning the phones for Democratic candidates and working hard for the Democrats. That won’t change Obama’s ineffectual naivete and helpless gullibility, and so what? What’s the alternative? Newt? Christine O’Donnell? Sarahcuda?
Bob Loblaw
@BGinCHI:
Do you not understand non-literal language? How inebriated are you right now? Don’t post drunk.
mantis
They sat politely in the back of the bus trusting that your man would do what he said
Bullshit! They turned on him before he even took the fucking oath. They want magical ponies 24 hours a day, and if they don’t get them, they blame their own side, not the opposition. They’re absolute morons.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Mark S.: I’ll probably get flamed for this, but I don’t think Reid and the Senate Dems were really trying to get DADT repealed.
That wouldn’t surprise me, but the fact that Ben Nelson and a couple others of that ilk, voted for it makes me suspect the Dems (the vast majority of them) of good faith here. Even Bayh and Dorgan, hardly progressive, neither having any history of enlightenment on gay rights that I’m aware of and both leaving the Senate, voted to repeal
@Martin:
I hadn’t heard that, but it underscores the stupidity of the people who carry on about Obama’s “obsession with bipartisanship/”THEY”RE NEVER GONNA LOVE YOU BARRY!” Whether because of (IMHO misguided) political calculation or because of chronic internalized Broderism, some Dems just need Republican cover to do the right thing. And fuck Blanche and her Young Earth fellow Arkansas Traveller.
Linda Featheringill
@Belvoir:
This seems to be an honest rant.
@John Cole: I think you should answer this comment.
Mark S.
@Martin:
What? I never read that’s how it went down. It doesn’t make sense at least with regards to DADT, since as long as they had Susie they had 60 and didn’t need an up or down vote.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Nick:
Especially with Arkansas critters. Obama is like a demi-god in Arkansas.
JMY
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I believe having 2 Dems change their vote is a procedural move…Reid has done it plenty of times.
FlipYrWhig
@Mark S.:
OK, so first the idea is that Democrats should just TRY to get things passed, because even if you lose, you fought, and it helps keep your supporters in the game.
But this time they did try, and there really was a vote, and Reid deliberately played hardball by refusing to disentangle DADT from other provisions.
But, no, that doesn’t count either, because he didn’t _really_ try, because, well, hey, look at the results. Oh, sure, it _looks_ like they tried, but not _really_, because it will only _really_ be true when there’s a big loud nasty fight, which it will be OK to see fail, because it will show that the fight was honest, except for the next Mark S. who decides that it wasn’t big, loud, and nasty enough, and really that’s what they should have done, and that probably would have won, too. But all they had to do was try!
Nick
@Mark S.:
I did, in fact in the aftermath that’s how some people like John Aravosis proceeded to blame Reid for DADT going down, because he wouldn’t allow unlimited amendments. i think it was Aravosis who speculated Reid did that because he wanted DADT to fail.
arguingwithsignposts
Personally, I think every progressive should be pushing hard to rewrite the rules of the fucking Senate, because that place is where shit goes to die, and the GOP has elevated obstructionism in that chamber to a high art.
And the first thing to go should be the goddamn secret holds.
FlipYrWhig
@Mark S.:
Um, because you’d probably lose a bunch of Democrats who want to be able to say they voted for the Defense bill that happened to include DADT repeal, but who wouldn’t want to say they voted specifically to overturn DADT, because they’re homophobic?
ETA: I mean the whole point of this procedural maneuver was to dare people to vote against the “Defense Authorization Bill” during a time of war. The Republicans did it anyway. It provided successful demagoguery for about 11 consecutive seconds before “activists” started fulminating with rage about how much of a betrayal it was… _on the part of the Democrats_.
Nick
@FlipYrWhig: As my grandfather said “If at first you don’t succeed, try, try again, because nobody will recognize the effort until you succeed”
wmd
@That’s Master of Accountancy to You, Pal (JMN):
I’m in awe of your legal acumen. It’s always a good sign when you insult those that are arguing against your point while helpfully giving the link to the US code you insist people read.
I noticed you aren’t addressing who would have standing to sue to block enforcement of an executive order.
So are you +10 or something?
300baud
I don’t buy this part of this argument:
@gbear:
Although I find the current crop of “conservative’ candidates abhorrent, I’m not persuaded that a Republican majority in the house will trigger the fall of the Republic and the extinction of mankind.
Yutsano
Sigh.
I had a snarky civics lesson, but I’m now not in the mood.
I can haz late night open thread plz? kthxbai!
Nick
@arguingwithsignposts:
which Claire McCaskill has been spending the better part of the last two years doing.
Nick
@300baud:
Not the extinction of mankind, but certainly the fall of the Republic, providing it didn’t already happen and we just don’t know out.
Most of us will continue to live out our lives as migrant workers in Europe and Australia.
Midnight Marauder
@suzanne:
No one is arguing that marginalized people should “sit down and shut up” because it’s not good strategy; they can stand and be as loud as they want.
People are just saying they should get a better fucking strategy. Preferably, a strategy that recognizes the basic fact that struggles for civil rights in this country are, literally, a never-ending battle that are rife with disillusionment and setbacks.
You get emancipated from slavery, and they still find a way to keep institutional racism in check via Jim Crow. Or you settle a lawsuit against the USDA for systemic, empirically documented decades long discrimination in 1999, and then a bunch of bigots come out and deny you what’s rightfully yours in 2010:
The point is that you can go out and protest all day, every day. Just protest the people who would not gladly sign legislation granting you all the rights and protections that heterosexuals
white malesenjoy in this country. It’s really one of the dumbest fucking things I’ve ever seen. How many times has GetEQUAL protested John McCain for his following backtrack on repealing DADT?JMY
It’s funny when the president and to some extent – Reid try to do something, yet it fails, the response is that they really didn’t try or they didn’t really want the desired outcome; that they don’t care. Reid and Obama are just homophobes, who want you to think they care about the LGBT community, but really don’t.
Martin
@TheYankeeApologist: Nobody is saying that gays or latinos or [insert other group] needs to sit back and take it. All we’re saying is that don’t fight for your cause by improving the odds to get into power of the people that you know have zero intention of ever helping you.
The single biggest impediment toward DADT getting repealed this year was the Republican built economy. Legislators aren’t going to see a massive difference between helping gays through DADT and helping gays (and getting non-gays as a bonus) through job stimulus, and so on. That’s not an excuse against not doing it, but if it wasn’t for the hogs trough of economic shit they had to work though, there’d be a whole host of issues that the public and various interest groups would be able to push forward on. My guess is that we’d be talking about DOMA, not DADT at this stage if not for that.
Nick
@JMY:
It’s even funnier when it comes from the same people who say “We would be ok with it failing, as long as they just try”
wmd
@Nick:
Are you seriously arguing that trying to get better candidates in primaries is a bad idea?
Halter may have had a better shot in the general than Lincoln.
Spector and Toomey match up didn’t look much better than Sestak Toomey, and Sestak hasn’t lost yet. Not looking great either, but this is a race that’s worth some continued effort.
300baud
@suzanne:
Yes, exactly that.
mclaren
@arguingwithsignposts:
Abso-fucking-lutely. Somewhere, somehow, progressives have got to do something about the dysfunctional senate. It’s killing major initiatives like action on global warming.
Y’know, that threatens human existence on earth. Kind of serious. If we just keep on doing what we’re doing without taking action to reduce greenhouse gasses, we could wind up with a situation where humans can survive only on the north and south pole.
Someone needs to starting framing reform of the senate as “Do you want to starve and die because the entire midwest has turned into the Sahara? Or do you want to fix the senate’s broken procedures?”
Odie Hugh Manatee
@slag:
John Cole is Neo Connors? Yes, in a very strange way it does fit.
@Joe Beese:
Now Obama is a “bigot”? Fuck you and your pathetic thumb-sucking whiny little ass.
Uncle Clarence Thomas
I don’t understand why they always force President Obama to agree with right-wing Republicans but never let him agree or negotiate with center-left Democrats.
They sure are mean to President Obama.
Nick
@wmd:
Sometimes, not always, but it’s not the silver bullet either. Halter wasn’t going to win, Sestak isn’t having any better luck than Specter.
You run primaries where they can help, in areas where progressives can win, you don’t run them in Arkansas. Halter was fucking stupid, this is West Virginia South. Sestak wasn’t.
Mark S.
@FlipYrWhig:
I think I was saying they were being too nasty. Look, everyone knew it came down to Susan Collins. If she were going to vote no regardless, then obviously it wasn’t Reid’s fault. As I said, I’ve never gotten a definitive answer to what she needed. If it was a question of having to sit through 300 idiotic gooper amendments, then I would say it would be worth it to repeal the damn thing once and for all.
300baud
@mantis:
If by “magical ponies” you mean crazy things like basic civil rights, you might have a point there. But as to who turned on whom, I note that Barack Obama was for gay marriage before he was against it, and his eagerness to oppose it went up the closer he got to the election. If they “turned on him”, which I didn’t notice, it may have had something to do with that.
Sure, the Republicans aren’t on their side, but it is not unreasonable for gay people to think that the Democrats aren’t really on their side yet either.
dr. know
admittedly did not read through all the comments, but the first 50 were enough.
first, on the specific issue of these gay activists, obviously John Cole and his commenters don’t understand what it’s like to be in their position. and they aren’t willing to try to understand. these activists have a legitimate beef on DADT, and their disappointment and anger are entirely justified. i don’t blame them for wanting to smash things up. i say more power to them.
second, it appears to me that — no matter what the issue — there is a core of commenters here (which John Cole joins up with when it suits him) that will take any opportunity, and make the most narrow, legalistic arguments, and go the extra mile and twist themselves into increasingly ridiculous knots, in order to defend Democrats and deny what is plainly right the fuck in front of their faces.
i mean, your mantra basically boils down to “hey morons, do you really think this is helping?” well. my answer to this is: helping WHAT? helping to (re)elect a bunch of assholes who have NOT managed to repeal DADT?
because when you look past all the pretty public pronouncements made by the politicians that John Cole and his commenters spend so much time supporting and defending, what you see is a bunch of folks trying desperately to hold on to their positions of power and doing only the bare minimum of lip service — if even that — to advance the actual policies and positions favored (apparently) by John Cole and his commenters.
so i guess what i mean is: hey morons, do YOU really think this is helping?
FlipYrWhig
@Uncle Clarence Thomas: Yeah, that might have something to do with the fact that Obama’s priorities line up pretty well with those of center-left Democrats to begin with. He doesn’t give a flying fuck about conservative Republicans and I’d guess you couldn’t find one example of him trying to round up a conservative Republican for one of his initiatives. (_Maybe_ Enzi on health care. I find Lindsey Graham to be pretty conservative myself, but that’s not how the pundits treat him.) On the other hand, he DOES give a fuck, necessarily so, about conservative _Democrats_, whose votes he needs in order to have a hope at getting a 60-vote majority. Yes, it’s aggravating that everything has to get watered down in order to get to 60, and it would even have to get watered down to get to 50, but the solution to that is electing 50 or 60 bold progressive Democrats, and, well, that ain’t too likely, seeing as they’d be representing states where “bold progressive” is practically a swear word.
300baud
@Martin:
That’s a reasonable thing to say, but reasonable people could also disagree. If Democrats are taking for granted the votes and money of gay rights supporters, then maybe they need a reason to court them more energetically.
That obviously won’t help the gay rights situation in 2011-2012, but honestly, how much would getting the Democrats back in help that anyway? If your goal isn’t DADT in 2011 but gay marriage in 2013+, maybe it’s worth reminding the Democratic party that you won’t be taken for granted.
Suffern ACE
@FlipYrWhig: Which begs the question – who exactly are these “activists” who prefer to spit bile at Democrats and wonder why they aren’t invited inside. Somedays I wonder how it is that the tea party has taken over the folks who are supposedly agitating for my rights and whether the folks most loudly claiming to represent me aren’t just some upper middle class astro-turfed Rushbots who just can’t get over the habit of blaming Democrats for all their problems.
suzanne
@Midnight Marauder:
If this were an isolated incident, I would have no compunction about agreeing with you. However, as we saw with the Stupak bullshit (and that’s just a recent example), some politicians on both sides have no problem using the rights of certain marginalized groups as bargaining chips. So I think it’s quite understandable for those groups to be really fucking pissed off and possibly even paranoid. ‘Cause it happens.
Having said that, I do think incremental improvement *is* improvement. And, as I said above, I *never* support sitting an election out or voting for the capital-E Eeeeevil in bullshit protest.
FlipYrWhig
@dr. know: Try reading a few more than the first 50 comments on things. You might end up in another place than, “OMG another stab in the back I will not go to the back of the bus wolverines!”
sherifffruitfly
@dr. know:
(shrug) Let ’em enjoy the republican majority they help elect, then.
You’re completely correct. I am white, male, straight, and secure in my job. I don’t really have a dog in the race. If gay folks or others who didn’t get everything they wanted in these 18 or so months think their behavior is helping, then rock the fuck on.
Have fun with the new House. Have fun blaming it on every one and every thing under the sun. I know I won’t be any worse off. I hope the same holds for everyone else.
FlipYrWhig
@300baud:
Definitely! Because then you get gay marriage in 2063! And, really, in the long run, it all works out, right?
Martin
@dr. know: No, the bottom line is ‘Do you want it repealed or do you want to punish the people you expected would have repealed it by now?’
I see a lot of the latter. If you want to give a big fuck-you to Dems for not having repealed it, that’s fine. But don’t fucking come in here next year with Senate Majority Leader DeMint and complain that DADT isn’t even on the legislative agenda, and REALLY don’t complain that they’ve scheduled a vote on a federal ban against gays being school teachers.
This tactic is self-destructive. It has nothing to do with anyone wanting gays to sit down and shut up. It’s simply a bad tactic toward getting this legislation changed.
JMY
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
I’m still waiting on Joe Beese to explain how Obama is a bigot.
300baud
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
I think bigot is too strong, but I see the point.
If somebody were opposed to interracial marriage but said they preferred a separate-but-equal interracial civil union law, people would certainly call them bigoted. The analogy, of course, being to Obama’s gay marriage position.
Sure, he’s probably just saying something other than what he believes for the sake of political expediency. But two years on, you could see how people might think that instead maybe he meant what he said.
300baud
@FlipYrWhig:
I can’t tell if you’re missing my point or dismissing it without counterargument, but either way I’m not getting much from your response.
Glenndacious Greenwaldian (formerly tim)
@John Cole:
Sure do, John…plenty to kick Puke ass if they wanted to. don’t play innocent with me. Why do you pretend to accept the b.s. that Obama and Reid can’t possibly do anything to twist some blue dog and “moderate” repuke arms into voting with them, no matter what it takes, behind the scenes? You know good old fashioned political and financial threats, which is what these folks understand?
By your logic, apparently, the congress could just pre-accept the republican/dem membership count as the final tally on every bill, and no one would even have to show up to vote.
Yes, I know, Obama has no power to sway anyone in the congress because they are all so mean to him, except when, you know, he does, as in the case of always very important WAR FUNDING, over which O doesn’t hesitate to crack heads.
O noze, we don’t have the votes! The Obama/Dem rallying cry since 2008. Very inspiring. Meanwhile, Obama showed no passion or motivation until about a week ago, when campaigning went into full swing. Very inspiring.
Linda Featheringill
@dr. know:
Okay, you are angry. A bunch of you guys are angry. That’s okay.
But you are also remarkably self-centered and oblivious to a lot of stuff going on in the world.
A bunch of us think that if the current crop of Republicans get control, these things will happen:
1. There will be more war. Thousands of men, women, and children will die.
2. There will be fewer resources devoted to welfare in disaster-stricken areas. Thousands of men, women, and children will die.
3. Some of those jerks will likely start a war on the southern border. Thousands of men, women, and children will die.
4. The flipping right-wing idiots will allow local governmental services wither away as they try to further enrich the already wealthy upper crust. Like politics, government is local. When enough of the local governments fail, the union will fail. It won’t be peaceful. Civil war will break out. Thousands of men, women, and children will die.
5. Even if I am wrong about the civil war, the union might fail and North Americal will be the home of a bunch of warlords who do anything they want to. Like Somalia. Thousands of men, women, and children will die.
6. The Republicans will not prepare for peak oil and will not prepare for global warming. Either of these could lead to the collapse of our current agricultural system. With both of them in force, agriculture will surely become less effective. I’m not sure about dying but thousands of men, women, and children will be hungry.
Some of us think that this is an important election. We are going to fight for it.
I know you think that I haven’t done enough to help you deal with your problems. Your problems are very real. I don’t deny that.
But I have real problems, too. And you haven’t made any statements that would make me think that you give a god damn about my problems. And you sure as hell aren’t going to help me.
I understand that you are too busy being angry and disappointed to help us win this election. That’s okay. Just don’t work against us so hard. Okay?
And if it isn’t okay, then forget you. I’m going to fight anyway.
JMY
@300baud:
Joe Beese is saying Obama is a bigot because of his inaction on LGBT issues, yet there has been action on those issues. How is the president, whom is pursuing a strategy which will permanently end DADT, a bigot? Because he & the Democrats failed to repeal it when they tried?
Mark S.
@Glenndacious Greenwaldian (formerly tim):
Really. When did Obama crack a bunch of heads to get war funding? Congress loooves voting for war funding. They love voting for planes that can’t fly in the rain. They love voting for missile defense that doesn’t work. They don’t need any head cracking.
Bob Loblaw
@Linda Featheringill:
Ok, so you’re pretty much a psychopath.
The United States will not devolve into Somalia if the Republicans hold a majority in the House of Representatives. The fact that this has to be explicitly stated is…well, I don’t really know what that is.
I think it’s real fucking adorable how you hardened, pragmatic realists turn into paranoid little pisspants when your side is finally due to lose an election cycle again. You spend all your time laughing at the ignorant cries of marxism and socialyzm from the right, and then start cowering in fear about the impending dissolution of the union yourselves. Stop pretending that your living in a pivotal moment of history and you’re the only ones holding back the forces of unstoppable evil. You’re not.
300baud
@JMY:
I have no idea what Joe Beese is saying; you’d have to ask him.
I’m just saying Obama’s stated position could reasonably be called bigoted, and gay rights proponents have to take on faith that he’s lying for political gain. When you combine that with what people could reasonably see as insufficient progress after a decade of waiting, I’m not surprised that people get upset, and suspect he isn’t lying after all, or maybe was instead lying when he said nice things about gay people.
Angry Black Lady
@WyldPirate:
This is the kind of selfish bullshit that really pisses me off. Think about other people for a change. How other people are going to fare while you laugh with glee as the Republic is being laid to waste. Ugh, it’s disgusting.
You people have lost your goddamn minds and are, as a result, more than happy with the idea of handing it all over to the people we know for sure have NOTHING in common with progressive, fauxgressive, manic progressives, etc. No unmarried or gay teachers, no gays or women in the military, women having rape and incest babies, more hunting of immigrants on the border… what is wrong with you?
just get over yourself; think about someone who isn’t you.
Brachiator
@WyldPirate:
The Heart of Dixie is not the entirety of the United States. There are people like you who voice the same pointless defeatist rhetoric who live in places where their votes will make the crucial difference.
I note your pessimism. There is a lot of it going around. It seems to me that the only option is to fight to make things better or to give up and let people who will bring an infinitely worse alternative.
If you think that things are worse than anytime in your adult life, you obviously lack some perspective. This is not the Great Depression. We do not yet live in a time when large numbers of American citizens have been pushed into concentration camps or fear lynchings for daring to assert their rights.
What you think you see on the horizon is just one of many possibilities.
Yeah, I thought that things might be easier with the vote of confidence that voters gave to Obama. Didn’t turn out to be so easy.
And it is not that I am unhappy with your perspective. People stumble along the way, but as Bob Marley once sang, “Get up, stand up….”
There are people depending on you.
not a pony
Really tired of “some progressives” treating the president like he’s your own little personal Negro to mistreat & embarrass in any manner your little hearts desire. My own personal wish he could fulfill for me is that he would go Malcom X on your asses. That would make my decade.
suzanne
@Linda Featheringill:
This is the kind of attitude toward marginalized groups that, even if it’s an accurate description, gets those groups all pissed off enough to do this sort of stupid shit. Yanno, if I’m in love and can’t get married because a bunch of bigots think I’m icky and have cooties and that God thinks I have committed an unforgivable sin, I really don’t want to fucking hear about how ***I*** need to broaden my worldview. I am not the fucking problem.
And this is where I think the centrist Dems have a shitty strategy, too. They should be saying something like, “Okay, we lost on DADT. We will take the issue up again after the election. And six months after that. And six months after that.” Ad infinitum, until we get the results we want. Instead, they’re saying, “Don’t blame us, we didn’t fuck it up!”, and they’re right, they DIDN’T fuck it up, but it’s really important to never create the impression that one group’s grievance is less important. Implying (or saying) that a group is self-centered for fighting for their rights is essentially saying that one group’s problems are less important than that of another group. And it’s amazing how everyone thinks their problems are the most pressing.
Wile E. Quixote
@WyldPirate:
Nope, I’ll just wait for your diabetes and bad heart to kill you. One less fat, dumb, lazy nihilist and more parking for the rest of us.
The Raven
Me, personally, I’m trying to decide how badly I hate the idea of a wingnut Senator. Do I hate it badly enough to work for their Democratic opposition, a woman who cannot even trouble to have a staffer read my mail?
Linda, if you think about it, these things may happen under the Democrats, too. If they don’t happen, it will only be because the despised left has made enough noise to prevent them, or simply by happy accident.
Croak!
Wile E. Quixote
@Joe Beese:
Again, why do I have the feeling that Joe Beese is completely full of shit? Why do I have the feeling that Joe Beese has spent about as much time working to advance the causes he claims to care about as members of the Red State Strike Force have spent time in the military serving the country they claim to love so much.
Brachiator
@dr. know:
But of course, the thing is that you are not going to smash anything up. You are only going to let people who absolutely hate gay people slip into government.
But then again, I am not one of those people who believe that we are faced with the lesser of two evils. In the Tea Party and the No Nothing GOP, you will get something particularly heinous.
Americans are stupid and there is a certain class of liberals that is especially stupid. We are seeing bigots rise up all over the world and try to get elected to public office. We see the damage and confusion that they cause. And still, people think that we are the magical exceptions, that self-destruction is somehow the same thing as punishing people who will not give you what you want.
300baud
@The Raven:
I really appreciate you posting that MLK quote. That’s fantastic, and perfectly apropos.
Angry Black Lady
@That’s Master of Accountancy to You, Pal (JMN): you. you rule. that is all.
300baud
@Brachiator:
Although it’s reasonable to think that letting Republicans get elected now will set gay rights back in the long run, it’s also reasonable to think just the opposite.
Many said at the time of Obama’s election that we had Bush’s incompetence to thank for our first black president, that we might have waited decades for that civil rights milestone without the financial meltdown.
Perhaps clearing out some of the current Democratic incumbents will make room down the road for a more effective bunch down the road.
cat48
Could someone explain why it’s considered strategic to interrupt fundraisers by being rude to everyone there? I simply don’t understand the logic. It gives me the impression that you consider yourselves way more important than the other attendees somehow. Your not making a lot of friends that way. I’d be pissed at your rude ass. It is teabaggerish.
mclaren
@WyldPirate:
Good example of undue pessimism there. If you look back at recent history, you can see that progressives have had an enormous effect in the Heart of Dixie.
Just consider:
50 year ago blacks couldn’t drink at the same drinking fountains as whites. Black people had to use separate bathrooms. That’s gone today.
47 years ago, a white southern sheriff murdered a bunch of college students (most of ’em white, some black) for daring to ride around the south signing up black people to vote. That’s unthinkable today.
50 years ago, when a black person got lynched in the deep south, the thugs who did always got off in a jury trial. Not today.
50 years ago, so many bombs were going off in black churches in Birminghm AL where civil rights activists used to meet that it was called “bombingham.” Nothing like that could possibly happen today without such a storm of law enforcement descending to stop it that you’d think you were in the middle of cop cyclone.
And the crowning exhibit: in his original trial, Byron de LaBeckwith was acquitted of the murder of black civil rights activist Medgar Evers. In his re-trial a few years ago on federal civil rights charges, de LaBeckwith was convicted.
Things really have changed for the better in the heart of Dixie. There’ve been huge changes. Don’t give up hope. The change may be slow, but it’s been enormous.
Uncle Clarence Thomas
@FlipYrWhig:
> Yeah, that might have something to do with the
> fact that Obama’s priorities line up pretty well
> with those of center-left Democrats to begin with.
Wrong. Excuse me, but that is not “the fact” in any observable and demonstrated way.
> He doesn’t give a flying fuck about conservative
> Republicans
Wrong. There are no “conservative Republicans” vs any other kind. If there were any other kind than bat-shit obstructionist asshole Republicans, there wouldn’t be all these “0 Republican” votes.
Therefore, President Obama should not appease them by allowing the Democratic party, which he leads, to water down and negotiate away every potentially reasonable piece of legislation to meaninglessness in hopes of garnering several Republican votes — which he knows in advance he will not get. And yet that’s all he does.
Only one conclusion is possible to a rational observer.
The Raven
@mclaren: But, you know, it wasn’t voting for the lesser of two evils that led to the gains of the Civil Rights movement. Two main factors: the non-violent activism of blacks led by Martin Luther King, who I just quoted above, and the unexpected sympathy for the poor and oppressed of an otherwise conservative President, Lyndon Baines Johnson.
Consider that activism may win, and passivism will most likely lose. Voting is good, voting is important, but voting alone will not gain civil rights for LGBT people.
300baud: thank you.
Brachiator
@300baud:
No, it’s not. You have people like Paladino in New York declaring that gays are dysfunctional. I have never heard a Tea Party person say anything positive about gay rights.
I could understand what you say about clearing out some of the current Democratic incumbents if you had someone better than them running for office. It is here that your analogy about Obama falls apart.
Obama ran against McCain and the Bush legacy. There is no magical wellspring of pro-gay candidates running against Tea Party people.
And in the world that we live in, I would expect the Republicans to do everything that they can to capitalize on any victories, because this is what they have done in the past.
I find it sad, but not too surprising that there are people who plainly ignore the effusions of bigotry from the Tea Party and the mainstream GOP because they the want to concentrate on Democratic Party in-fighting. Go ahead, tire yourself out. There is a ravenous wolf at the door waiting for you.
Angry Black Lady
@Brachiator: exactly. what kind of foolishness is it to say that the Republicans are going to advance gay rights. That’s asinine and makes 300baud look like a TP plant.
Each of his/her comments ends with “maybe Republicans won’t be so bad.”
right.
Brachiator
@Uncle Clarence Thomas:
The problem here is that Obama is president of the United States, not only the leader of the Democratic Party. I suppose that he could, like Bush, simply ignore the sentiments of those US citizens who did not vote for him. Or he could try to reach out to them, and to their elected representatives.
But what would be the point of being a Democratic Party version of Dubya?
NobodySpecial
@The Raven: This.
I get the feeling that half the crowd here would have been telling Martin that he was being too mean if he wrote that letter.
Anne Laurie
@suzanne:
__
To make an observation that is no doubt gonna piss people off: Back in the 1970s/80s, when gay-rights battles and then AIDS activism were at their height, it was observed by feminists and minority activists that gay men were way noisier and sometimes much more swiftly effective than us women and people of color. It seemed to be so much easier for gay men to go from insult to outrage to turning-over-the-tables activism. And at least some of that ease — now, as then — is that we have grown up differently, been trained since childhood differently. Women, and people of color, have spent our whole lives being told to wait our turn, to be patient, to settle for incrementalism and small steps. White men, on the other hand, DO NOT WAIT. White men are entitled! White men demand their due!
Would we not-white-men be better off if we shouted more and networked less? Or would we just have been incarcerated, sometimes in psychiatric institutions ‘for our own good’?
Pat
The signs said hold onto your money. To me that’s good advice right now seeing my 5 bucks means nothing compared to the millions being poured in anonymously!
You did not mention one sign that said anything about not voting on November 2.
It seems to me you are confusing donating money with getting to the voting booth.
I never plan on donating a penny to anyone ever again, but I plan to vote in every election until the day I die!
You don’t have to be a donor to be a voter!!!!!
Tattoosydney
@Midnight Marauder:
This be the most clever thing said in this stupid fucking thread.
Nick
@300baud:
This doesn’t make any sense. Because you’re angry there’s bee no action on gay rights, you think the best option is to fix it “down the road?”
WTF?
bayville
This post makes a great point.
I’m so tired of hearing these results-oriented “activists” blaming the President of the United States for all of the negatives in this country.
I mean, he says he’s against DADT that should settle that…he’s only the President for chrissakes.
Just like this nationwide mortgage fraud scandal. Sure, the President’s top advisor said on national television he’s against a moratorium on foreclosures – thus, seemingly siding with the Banking Industry – but the President of the United States has speechified many times against the Banksters.
And that goes for all of you Health Care Reform naysayers. The HCR Law has the word “Reform” in it, dipshits. What else do you want?
Ditto to all the tree-huggers, peaceniks and ungrateful Naderites.
It’s time to Buck up, STFU and Vote Dem next month all of you results-oriented dimwits. Or else we’ll have a bunch of crazzzzy Teabaggers running the world.
There will be plenty of time to complain after the elections.
Carol
I’m a member of a marginalized group that has been fighting for civil rights for four centuries and counting. Three of them we couldn’t even vote. I was eight when we got the Voting Rights Act and real enforcement of civil rights. The speed of change in gay rights is astounding: from the late 1970’s to now is nothing short of incredible. But because Obama won’t say “gay marriage is groovy”, you are willing to throw him under the bus. LBJ doubtless used the n-word and maybe wouldn’t have had one of us marry his daughter, but he passed a law and didn’t fight others that made changes happen. We didn’t expect him to give us verbal affirmation-just give us the legal rights.
Some progressives have no sense of history or common sense. People like this also complain that he’s not like FDR or LBJ. Of course, back then the Democrats had about 70 Senators and way more than 218 Representatives too. One factoid I remember was that the Democrats lost 88 seats in 1938 and still kept the gavel. They could do the iron fist because there was no chance even a determined rebellion would succeed in having the gavel change hands to the other party. The Republicans they did have were more the Rockefeller/Progressive Party kind who could be negotiated with. Today Obama has at least 2-3 Senators who probably would defect if he learned on them too hard, and probably at least 10-20 Reps who would do the same in a pinch. The Reasonable Republicans like Rockefeller and Landon have been replaced by Confederate Lovers like DeMint and Boehner, who would rather die than compromise with anything because he’s Kenyan. Yet there was a vote on Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell-not enough to pass it, but there was one. We got health care, and a draw-down in Iraq, and a time limit to Afghanistan.
Obama may not be progressive enough for you, but for this tea-bagger aged (I’ll be 54 on Weds) progressive who has lived through the nightmares of Nixon. Reagan, Daddy Bush, and his incompetent son, the third Democrat President I’ve had during my voting years is miles ahead of any Republican out there. None of whom did a damn thing to advance gay rights whatsoever and were more than happy to treat the entire subject with “benign neglect” at best and hostility at worst.
John S.
Narcissus gazed into the water… And saw the reflection of a Firebagger.
slightly_peeved
.. where some of the people on this thread would find out that the great social projects that such countries have, and the US lacks, are not the result of some dynamic single leader fulfilling the dreams of the left in a single burst of legislation, but instead the result of the exact kind of compromise-making, pragmatism, and gradual long-term advancement of an agenda that a section of the US left thinks is a sign of weakness.
Nick
@slightly_peeved:
This, and also the result of a smart, educated and involved population, a fair media, and acceptance that they no longer run the fucking world and are thus the “best” at everything.
Barb (formerly gex)
What I find most interesting is that “the gays” are all one block in this discussion. A few gays protest, and now “the gays” are doing this and “the gays” are doing that and “they” turned on Obama right away, and “they” want magical ponies, etc.
It’s as hostile here as anywhere else.
WaterGirl
@Carol: Perspective is a wonderful thing. Thanks for posting this.
Chrisd
I love these never-ending spittle-flecked threads where gobs of brain power are expended to justify whatever it is Obama didn’t do this week, month or year. Seriously, the best of you should work for the administration. You are better at spin than his own team.
Obama can’t halt discharges because such an act would be reversible? How ’bout halting dischages while working for outright repeal? You know, like walking and chewing gum at the same time?
Obama can’t halt discharges because HE CAN’T and JUST READ THE FUCKING LAW?
Uh, no:
http://www.palmcenter.org/press/dadt/releases/New+Study+Says+Obama+Can+Halt+Gay+Discharges+With+Executive+Order
The Democrats deserve–DESERVE–to lose.
August J. Pollak
@Linda Featheringill:
Jesus Christ.
Of those 6 things, 3 and a half (1,2,6 and the first, non-insane half of 4) are already happening with Democrats in charge, and the other 2 and a half are simply not going to happen because they’re crazy and you’re crazy if you actually think they are.
When Bush got elected I remember saying that I was terrified he’d get us into a nuclear war or something. Then I graduated college. This is irrational, embarrassing baby talk and we are truly and utterly fucked if you honestly believe that Harry Reid’s control of the Senate is all that’s keeping us from invading Mexico.
beergoggles
@Midnight Marauder:
Someone doesn’t realize that we can multitask. We can hold Obama’s feet to the fire and attack Republicans and phone bank for legislation. So you can go back to humping your strawman.
beergoggles
@That’s Master of Accountancy to You, Pal (JMN):
I’ve read the law. More analysts than just the Palm center have looked at it. Although there may not be complete consensus, there is no contradicting precedent. Unless you have case law to cite, ur just spouting o-bot talking points.
Ah yes, the hold issued on the war on pot and the continuation of assassination without due process show us how seriously the president takes dereliction of duty.
You really have no credibility if that’s your best argument.
snarkypsice
@slightly_peeved:
Amen!
TaosJohn
Wow. If you guys were sheep, the rancher wouldn’t need a fence.
izzatxeaux
Grijalva –
by all means John, ignore the early attacks on Grijalva from Gabrielle Giffords, a fellow democrat in the adjoining district:
http://downwithtyranny.blogspot.com/2010/08/unscrupulous-blue-dog-attack-on-raul.html
browser
@john cole
So teh gays are harming unit, er, party cohesion? Is that really the analogy you want to use?
Tim I
@Bob Loblaw:
Calling for a boycott of your home State is never a good political idea – just saying.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@WyldPirate:
Obama campaigned on the surge in Afghan. If you didn’t know that, then all the commentors who are calling you willfully ignorant are 100% correct. Stupid is as stupid does.
300baud
@Brachiator:
You aren’t thinking in terms of a long enough game.
During Rove’s rise and his talk of a permanent Republican majority, even a lot of Democrats were pretty sure we were doomed for a generation. Ditto during Gingrich’s “Contract with America” days. It turns out that crazy people are much better at being crazy than running things. Remember that the original wave of Know-Nothings were nationally prominent for just a few years before self-destructing.
lol
I love how Obama gets blamed at the same time for fetishing bi-partisanship AND not twisting the arms (however the fuck that works) of moderate Republicans enough to get votes.
Every single Senate Democrat voted for the DADT repeal. (The two Arkansas Dems only switched their votes to no when it became clear it wasn’t going to pass and Reid of course switched his vote for procedural reasons.) But Democrats are the problem.
mantis
If by “magical ponies” you mean crazy things like basic civil rights
I don’t. What I mean is “I get exactly what I want, in perfect form, right now, and if that doesn’t happen, it’s the president’s fault, regardless of the circumstances.” They want things to happen magically, regardless of how many votes there are for it or the political consequences.
Sure, the Republicans aren’t on their side, but it is not unreasonable for gay people to think that the Democrats aren’t really on their side yet either.
Actually, a lot of Democrats are, though some aren’t, but almost no Republicans are on their side. I know which team I would pick, and I know that I’ll never get what I want by poisoning my side from within, refraining to vote or voting for the other side. It’s called cutting of your nose to spite your face, and it’s completely moronic.
As stupid as they are, at least Republicans know well enough to support their side even if they don’t get everything they want.
If those gay activists, or any liberal activists of the Firebagger variety, really think they’ll have better luck with a Republican congress, or a Republican White House in 2012, they deserve what they get. Trouble is, the rest of us get the same shit sandwich. Thanks a bunch, progressives (who don’t care for progress in stages, only instant magical utopias).
300baud
@Angry Black Lady:
That’s just the opposite of what I’m saying.
I think it’s reasonable for gay rights supporters to do this for two reasons.
One, they could just be saying, “No, as a matter of conscience, I refuse to sit quietly until I have civil rights.” In this case, suggesting they should be willing to wait quietly for civil rights until the majority says it’s finally time is somewhere between irrelevant and contemptuous.
Two, they could be saying that sure, the Republicans will be worse in the short term, but if the Democrats wouldn’t be much better, then it’s worth taking the short-term hit to teach the Democrats that they ignore gays at their peril.
300baud
@Nick:
I’m not angry, I didn’t say there has been no action, and I don’t think that’s the best option. Which is perhaps why you think what I said didn’t make any sense.
300baud
@mantis:
Do you have any evidence that’s a mainstream notion in the gay rights movement, or even a common one? Personally, I haven’t heard that at all.
But I don’t think it’s insane for someone to say they don’t expect much from a Democratic Congress in 2011, so it’s worth smacking them now to ensure they pay better attention in 2013 and onward. If only squeaky wheels get greased, the right strategy is to squeak as loudly as possible.
Phoenix Woman
@wmd:
Yup, and Bill Halter actually had a better shot at winning in the general than did Blanche — he was down by 11 against Boozman back in May, whereas Blanche had a 20-point deficit against Boozer. But what Kos calls “the incumbency protection racket” is more important than the will of general-election voters.
By the way, if FDL were really a cult of personality, then we’d all be marching in lockstep, right? Various FDLers are indeed working to elect more and better Democrats like Bill Halter, and other FDLers are working to get pro-pot issues on the ballots because even the WSJ’s Peter Wallsten agrees that this will get the kids to the polls (you know, those young, often first-time voters who turned out in huge numbers for Obama in 2008 but who are now somewhat disenchanted?). And many FDLers share the sentiments John Cole attacks in this post. Gee, Tunch’s personality cult “controls” John a hell of a lot more effectively than Jane “controls” her writers, much less her readers.
Phoenix Woman
@Phoenix Woman: And of course, I forgot to mention that, believe it or not, there were and are subsets of people out there who think that FDL was if anything not progressive enough on health care reform or third parties.
WRT health care reform: It was obvious early on to the folks on the ground in Capitol Hill, people who FDL staffers had as our eyes and ears, that while single-payer was impossible with the current Congressional makeup, the public option was possible. (“Possible” doesn’t mean easy: It was obviously going to be a very tough fight, particularly since it was dealt away by the White House to please industry stakeholders and garner campaign cash for Democrats back in the spring of 2009 — and no, Tom Daschle, your attempt to walk back what you wrote in your new book isn’t very convincing). Yet there were boatloads of readers creating Seminal diaries and inhabiting the HCR comments threads attacking FDL for not backing single payer. (The “Hillary would have given us single payer by now” folk were especially amusing to me, as Hillary wouldn’t be Obama’s SOS now if there were any meaningful differences in their political stances. And for all the talk at this and other blogs about how FDLers were and are PUMAs, actual PUMAs spent much of 2008 railing at FDL for allegedly being in the tank for Obama.)
While the single-payer discussion has died down, the third-party people are waving their banners in the Seminal (which for those who aren’t familiar has a relationship to FDL’s front page somewhat like that of the DKos user diaries to DK’s front page): Created by users and not always, or even often, representative of The Official FDL Mindset, whatever that is) and criticizing the moves made by FDL to boost Democratic turnout with Just Say Now and other efforts. None of this would be possible if FDL were the lockstep place some people claim it to be.
eemom
@Phoenix Woman:
oh, you mean her ad hominem attacks on, and prompt banning of, everybody who disagrees with her hasn’t been “effective”?
Could’ve fooled me, because every comment thread over there these days is pretty much populated exclusively by zombie cultbots just like yourself, who proceed to devour the flesh of those hapless few who do dare to dissent from the Gospel According To Jane.
mantis
@300baud:
Do you have any evidence that’s a mainstream notion in the gay rights movement, or even a common one?‘
I don’t know. Ask Joe Beese: ,
But I don’t think it’s insane for someone to say they don’t expect much from a Democratic Congress in 2011, so it’s worth smacking them now to ensure they pay better attention in 2013 and onward.
This is, quite plainly, stupid. Losing a ton of seats, and possibly both majorities, only to see the recession deepen as a result of inaction by the government with a Republican congress, which will get blamed on Obama, only to see him lose to President Palin or whomever, is not going to get DADT repealed in the legislature, or get any other liberal goal accomplished, any sooner. It will push them back, possibly by decades, because some liberals wanted every single thing done in eighteen months, during a horrible recession.
Progress takes time. Sometimes, even longer than 18 months.