I realize this is about as scientific as the chatter around the Applebee’s salad bar, but my barometer of whether Real Americans in the Heartland are paying attention to an issue is the presence of that issue on the cover of America’s magazine. In less than a month — Dan Savage started the It Gets Better Project on September 16 — gay teen suicide has gone from something barely acknowledged to an intolerable outrage and tragedy.
The danger of using hatred of out groups as part of the gas in the tank of your political movement is that you’re going to be on the wrong side of a flip like this one.
Nick
narratives created by the media, it’s good when they do it for good.
BR
The problem is when voters are too stupid to put two and two together.
Lavocat
Perhaps this is all because these people are CHILDREN or very young adults. Being in this age group is fucking hard enough without having to deal with any other issues.
Most people get this which is why tormenting these poor souls over their herculean efforts to deal with their “otherness” is such a heinous offense.
Being a straight teen was hard enough. I don’t know if I could’ve handled being a gay teen as well.
r€nato
People is a liberal-biased publication.
A fair and balanced approach would be to also have someone present the other side of the gay teen suicide issue. Someone like Tony Perkins.
stuckinred
@Lavocat: This may be the same reason for the epidemic in military suicides.
joe from Lowell
What’s striking to me is how quickly the Republicans learned this lesson. A Constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage was the centerpiece of George W. Bush’s reelection platform in 2004. By 2008, they were treating the issue as something they had to say, quietly, to their base.
BR
I think a subtle part of this story also might be that the kids that did the bullying (if I remember correctly) are minorities – not, say, rich white kids with loudmouth parents.
JPL
And some people win elections this way. The marriage bill for one man and one woman was put on the ballot in many states simply to get conservatives to the polls.
The new hate groups are the mexicans and muslims.
Fox TV is already preparing for the flip by creating a republican latino news channel. The President has to now decide how to pursue the log cabin bill on dadt. The republicans will be the party that saved the gays
People have short term memories.
r€nato
@joe from Lowell: Muslims, browns and blacks are the new gay. I’m so glad the GOP has evolved.
*clap clap*
WereBear
Bless Dan Savage for knowing exactly what such a teen needs to hear, and getting the word out there.
There isn’t any reason why schools can’t get a grip on bullying. And sanctions are what young bullies need; lest they grow up to be bigger bullies.
Lavocat
@ stuckinred: I hear ya. I just can’t read any more about military suicides. I did my time and I got the fuck out while the gettin’ was good. Just the thought of being stuck in such hellholes with no light at the end of the tunnel. Some people want out any way they can get out. It’s heartbreaking.
kommrade reproductive vigor
Meanwhile the evil dipshits will come dancing out and claim that the solution is to cure these poor kids of their horrible affliction.
I was surprised too, and it’s great to see it getting coverage. On the other hand, part of me is afraid it will be another 5 minute bout of mawkishness and then down the memory hole with it. And I don’t watch much TV, has the attack in the Bronx been getting much coverage?
Elizabelle
They hedged their bet by including Mel Gibson’s baby mom on cover too. Domestic abuse.
“Mel Gibson Sex”, in case reader cannot identify with gay teen Tyler Clementi.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/04/us/04suicide.html?scp=1&sq=gay%20teen%20suicide%20Rutgers&st=cse
The hanging suicide of 13-year old Seth Walsh is heartbreaking.
It’s good to get bullying out in public discussion.
kommrade reproductive vigor
And I’m going to vote Republican because Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. was a Republican!
Bwahaha!
Princess
I agree, mistermix. I was really surprised to see those kids on the cover of People. And delighted. Poor sweet kids, looking exactly like all of our children.
Southern Beale
Today in hate crimes: Knoxville gay bar targeted by arsonists.
El Cid
It’s not without accident that right wingers see all of “Hollywood” (and things like People get folded in there) as part of the liberal media conspiracy, because there are frequently moving portrayals of the sorts of people right wingers don’t like.
r€nato
@Southern Beale:
Yeah, someone set fire to a gay bar because they were unhappy over getting cut off.
Nick
@joe from Lowell:
they are?
Nick
@joe from Lowell:
they are?
Keith G
@Lavocat:
Added to that is my feeling that we may be a somewhat meaner culture than we were earlier..I know that this is hard to measure, but even if the general societal ambiance is just slightly more negative, the impacts would be profound.
Sure, in times past, they was an amped up (and codified) racism, sexism, homophobia, but within those islands of subculture were reservoirs of safety and support.
There were often supportive heroes to be found in extended families and long term neighbors. The public sphere has gotten noticeably better, but I fear the fragmentation of extended families and traditional neighborhoods have diminished the chance for other avenues of important support, protection and resilience.
Even the gay subculture has become somewhat less tolerant of their own. That is what happens when oppression ebbs.
BDeevDad
This city council member in Fort Worth says it well.
kommrade reproductive vigor
@joe from Lowell: If you recall Das Base was FURIOUS at being played. And I don’t see much StFu about this from the current crop of fReichtards. Hell, the Texas GOP wants to reintroduce anti-sodomy laws.
joe from Lowell
@r€nato: It is interesting how they basically kicked those “values voters” to the curb and took up with the teabaggers and nativists, seemingly without missing a beat.
I guess you can not ban abortion just so many times before even people who watch the 700 Club catch on.
Jeff
@r€nato: It may be “liberal biased” ( whatever that means), but it is the headline that leaps out of every supermarket line in the country.
And that’s how minds get changed.
joe from Lowell
@Nick: Name a Repblican candidate who is featuring opposition to gay marriage as a top-tier issue in their campaign, the way Bush (and pretty much every Republican in the country) did in 2004?
I can’t remember John McCain ever having a “defend traditional marriage” event in 2008.
They just don’t run on the issue like they used to. It’s not something that they think will win them swing voters anymore.
kommrade reproductive vigor
And the difference between the two is … The later is into Cosplay?
joe from Lowell
@kommrade reproductive vigor:
That’s a good example. Even where the Republicans actually believe in that – Texas, or Montana – the actual Republican candidates downplay the issue and are embarrassed by the platforms. Even the ones who are actively anti-gay realize that it’s bad politics in a general election to be seen as “the anti-gay candidate.”
misterarthur
My son has Asperger’s syndrome. He’s a gentle, kind soul with a big heart. He was bullied unmercifully in middle school, has suffered debilitating depression, and threatened to take his own life. When one of the bully’s parents was informed, his response was “well, that’s just part of growing up.” I know what these kids are suffering. And my heart breaks for them all.
JPL
@BDeevDad: Thank you
beergoggles
@JPL: “The republicans will be the party that saved the gays People have short term memories. ”
That’s because of Reagan’s gay holocaust. Once such a significant segment of the population died, there weren’t enough survivors to pass on the horrors of Reagan and Republicans to the next generation of gays. The straights don’t even have that frame of reference to jog their long term memories.
JPL
@BDeevDad: There is an article in the Ft. Worth newspaper about the speech
link
beergoggles
And I have to say, if this exposure actually leads to bullied kids getting better support and schools responding to bullying, I will be relieved. I was really at the point where I was thinking the only way gay kids could ever stop the bullying was if they pulled a few columbine incidents.
Keith G
@beergoggles:
Hi again.
I get what you are saying, but I am not sure that is the best formulation to use. Some time I would love to explore this, but not now.
Off to work. Ttfn.
JPL
@beergoggles: I remember.
Barb (formerly gex)
I notice that the cover doesn’t mention homosexuality at all. I’m sure middle America can be anti-bullying, we saw that somewhat after Columbine. But anti-anti-gay bullying? The worst of it has happened in Minnesota (four kids in one district), and that community flatly refuses to address the issue.
We’ll see. Maybe Americans will open the cover, READ, and rethink things about gays. Maybe. I’m still concerned that it seems we’re really just waiting for a certain 60% of people over 60 to die.
beergoggles
@Keith G: I’m sure you’ve noticed it too. You talk to some young gay person and they’re clueless about the past. And by the past, I’m not talking ancient history, this was the 80’s. It’s even worse in gay-integrated places like the northeast; no gay ghetto, no more close knit community and our history becomes something academic instead of a heritage.
As for the formulation, it is what it is, but that won’t stop me from appreciating your take on it as someone who’s been around longer than I.
Barb (formerly gex)
@Jeff: And there’s nothing on the cover that talks about those kids being gay. What are they going to change their minds about?
williamc
Damn.
I had heard about the kid from Rutgers jumping off of a bridge because of the videotaping of him by his roommate, but I hadn’t seen a picture of him before.
Sucks; he was a hottie (and a musician apparently, something that presses my buttons), and now I’ll never get to show him how it gets better with me.
jonas
Is there any question that Tony Perkins is the most loathsome individual in public life today? The guy actually argued in the pages of the Washington Post that a couple of kids killing themselves was a small price to pay for not having to talk about homosexuality and gay rights in public schools. This is — quite literally — up there with the southern Senators back in the 20s and 30s who would filibuster anti-lynching legislation because they were afraid it would send a message to Blacks in the south that defying white supremacy was ok.
Nicole
@misterarthur: That’s what makes me angriest about bullies- that so many of their parents seem unwilling to face the situation. I’m sorry your son went through that and I hope things have gotten better for him, too.
Middle school is the worst. The worst.
jonas
@Barb (formerly gex): Actually, a fair number of people in the community wanted to address the problem, but the chickenshit school board ended up caving to a small group of outspoken right wingers in order to avoid “dividing people” over the issue. In other words, they acted a lot like Congressional Democrats.
Barb (formerly gex)
@jonas: Do you think I’m an idiot? Do you think I think ZERO adults in that district support anti-anti-gay bullying?
The community still refused to do anything about it, did it not? You yourself say they caved. What’s your point?
tomvox1
@jonas:
I think one should also point out that the Washington Post, you know, gave this asshole the Op-Ed space to spew his venomous dogshit. Which is like… ummm…can anyone name a well-regarded “mainstream” paper that gave pro-lynchers a voice on their Op-Ed pages back in the day? Awesome objectivity, Kaplan/Hiatt!
Barb (formerly gex)
@tomvox1: Actually a fair number of newspapers refuse to air Tony Perkins’ hate-spewing shit. /jonas
YellowJournalism
@Barb (formerly gex): I think the reason that they don’t explicitly mention homosexuality is because this issue isn’t focused on bullying because of sexual orientation alone. I wouldn’t be surprised if this was focused on loss of privacy through YouTube and Facebook rather than why the person was bullied. However, I agree that they should have put a little blurb near the Rutgers student’s picture to remind people of his story.
Hopefully people will read the article and realize how serious the issue of bullying is. But you have to remember, this is People magazine, aimed at a readership with a sixth-grade education at best and with very short attention spans. In fact, this cover is old, I think. The current cover is all about how importance of the Cox-Arquette split. Looking at their web site, the five most-read articles are about celebrity break-ups. Every single one.
Barb (formerly gex)
@YellowJournalism: Then contra the point of the post, this is just regular “OMG the Intertrons and our kidzzz!!!” journalism? I’d buy that.
I’m not sure why people are arguing with me about what’s happening in Minnesota or what the focus of the article is.
I thought the point of this post was that perhaps the cover marks a turning point in how middle america will view gays because of the tragedy of these bullied gays committing suicide. My point was if the cover doesn’t mention that it will not be effective unless people read it. Further if the focus of the article isn’t even on the anti-gay bullying aspect of these deaths, how exactly does the post above apply?
Barb (formerly gex)
From the post, “gay teen suicide has gone from something barely acknowledged to an intolerable outrage and tragedy.”
I point out the cover doesn’t mention anything about gayness. Therefore I don’t see this as a breakthrough in middle America’s awareness. Telling me that Anoka caved to the anti-anti-gay bullying folks or that the article isn’t even about anti-gay bullying doesn’t do much to convince me otherwise.
Mark
@WereBear: There’s no good reason why schools can’t stop bullying…But far too many teachers want to be liked by the ‘popular’ kids, and they’re not likely to take the side of the ‘unpopular’ types who get bullied. There are a lot of class issues tied up in bullying too – rich kids are taken seriously when they’re bullied; and they get a pass when they do it.
Jules
@misterarthur:
What a bullshit response.
Being bullied is only a part of growing up because people excuse it. People are allowed to act like assholes as adults because we put up with them….the asshole boss, the crappy customer and the adult “mean girls” are accepted instead of pointed out and shunned until they change their ways.
I was bullied in grades 5-7 by a group of girls who made my life miserable. Even at 47 I still remember how horrible it was and know that I still have issue because of what I went though in school.
If only my parents had had the option to home school during those tough years…..
Martin
Thank Glee. You put a top show out that has bullying as a major plot element and you can get real traction on an issue.
tomvox1
@Barb (formerly gex):
But not the WaPo, the #2 “most respected paper in the country.” Makes you wonder…
Nick
@misterarthur:
Well at least they accept it. In my day, the response from a bully’s parent was usually “Not MY son!”
Violet
Bullying in general is something that’s being discussed a lot in Middle America, not just gays being bullied. This may be wrapped up in that issue in general.
Very Reverend Crimson Fire of Compassion
@beergoggles: I remember.
gwangung
Yeah. Them kids need PRACTICE in pushing around hated minorities for when they become adults.
Lee
@BDeevDad:
I think I have something in my eye.
That was really something.
WOW
YellowJournalism
@Barb (formerly gex): I get what you’re saying. And I think that my point about People magazine in general kind of supports your point. This issue of People isn’t going to really do much for gay teens since it’s really more about bullying in general or, even more likely, cyber bullying.
The fact that the issue is addressed at all in the articles, though, is a step forward and will maybe make some people rethink their assumptions on what life is like for homosexuals, especially young teens who are still coming to understand their sexuality and how people treat it in our society.
@Martin: Glee is so interesting, because I think a lot of people forget that at its heart, it’s musical satire of high school politics (for students and teachers). I am constantly shocked, though, by how real some of the bullying they portray is and the reality of how there are few consequences. The signature bullying move on that show, the slushee toss, is an act of assault that unfortunately would be tolerated by administrators in many schools as a harmless prank.
@Mark: I think that your point about some teachers wanting to stay good with the popular crowd is valid, but I think it misses the fact that most teachers have very little control over the consequences that are given to bullies once they are reported to school administrators. You can establish your room as a safe-zone from bullying, but it will mean little if you cannot get support from the people who are supposed to help you enforce those rules. It is extremely difficult to get a child removed from a classroom for any reason, let alone bullying. I had a teacher try to keep people from bullying me in junior high, but there was no support from the principal who was afraid to start something with the other child’s parents. And, as someone else mentioned, there’s the local politics and class issues that come into play.
Joey Maloney
@Southern Beale: I wrote this elsewhere:
Barb (formerly gex)
@Violet: And threrefore this:
Is not actually what is happening. In fact, refusing to point out on the cover that those kids were gay keeps us in the “barely acknowledged”, possibly “not even acknowledged” area for those that just read the cover in the supermarket.
Jay C
SRSLY, mix? I tend to doubt it: the political “movement” in this country that is likely to be fueled by anti-gay sentiments is composed, for the large part, of folks who believe that out-groups like gay fully deserve to be “out” (and not in the “gay” sense); mainly on religious grounds – or whatever twisted reading of “religion” they feel like citing to justify their prejudices; and for whom “being on the wrong side” of any social issue is merely a provocation to Double Down on Teh Crazy.
Case in point: the crank rebbe who got Carl “I’ll take you out” Paladino to deliver his anti-gay screed to those Ultra-Orthodox in Brooklyn has publicly disavowed his support for the Buffalo Buffoon – because Paladino apologized for his remarks. And Yehuda Levin is a fringe figure even in Brooklyn: sentiments like his are sure to be prevalent among “religious leaders” with far larger followings and influence.
ruemara
It’s not enough. They don’t even mention that this was anti-gay bullying on the cover. Combine that with the lassai faire view on bullies by many parents and school systems and I don’t believe we’re ever going to see a serious movement in heartland areas to make this not acceptable. Plus some people are just damn stupid about it. My guild leader had post up about how he was raising his kids to be bullies then another one blaming the parents for raising pussies for kids. He actually tried to claim the kids deaths were the parents fault for not being involved in their children’s lives. He should know better, we’ve both had to support some of our underage members who’ve been struggling as young gay men who aren’t yet out, spending hours talking on the phone and just being there for them. I’m sorta looking for a new guild because I’m so pissed at him.
Keith G
@beergoggles:
This is a very truthful observation, but Reagan is mostly irrelevant to this process. Your next sentence describes causality:
The price of success. More and more gay kids are (thankfully) kids first. The same goes for young adults. There are important and in some cases tragic exceptions. Nonetheless, I am amazed at the progress. Having spent 23 years teaching in public schools, I have seen much of this change first hand.
I celebrate the dearly won progress of today and still I mourn the loss of the easy solidarity, and dare I say brotherhood, I felt coming out as a teenager in the 70’s.
Tim I
@BDeevDad:
Thanks for sharing that. What an emotionally powerful speech. I truly hope that it makes a difference for some young person in need of support.
The standing ovation is also telling. Even in Fort Worth, it is no longer acceptable to be a homophobe – at least not in public.
General JAFO Willibro
Uh, not quite. The proximate danger is that it turns you into a subhuman hate pimp without a soul. The collateral danger, of much more importance, is that if your political movement is successful, you will have created a political climate where the next thinkable steps in public policy toward the out group are disenfranchisement, expropriation, and, sooner or later, murder.
beergoggles
@Keith G: “I celebrate the dearly won progress of today and still I mourn the loss of the easy solidarity, and dare I say brotherhood, I felt coming out as a teenager in the 70’s. ”
In 30 minutes time, I’ll +1 to that.
Robert Hagedorn
Anal sodomy? To get the really big surprise google The First Scandal Adam and Eve. Then click once or twice to get the surprise.