Solid thinking, lads. I bet Speaker Boehner’s first piece of policy work will be the repeal of DADT, which is, you know, the most important piece of gay legislation ever- even more than ENDA!
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Come for the politics, stay for the snark.
The worst democrat is better than the best republican.
Prediction: the GOP will rethink its strategy of boycotting future committees.
Never entrust democracy to any process that requires republicans to act in good faith.
So it was an October Surprise A Day, like an Advent calendar but for crime.
You can’t love your country only when you win.
“Jesus paying for the sins of everyone is an insult to those who paid for their own sins.”
I’m pretty sure there’s only one Jack Smith.
He really is that stupid.
Why is it so hard for them to condemn hate?
Is it negotiation when the other party actually wants to shoot the hostage?
Is it irresponsible to speculate? It is irresponsible not to.
Everybody saw this coming.
They fucked up the fucking up of the fuckup!
They traffic in fear. it is their only currency. if we are fearful, they are winning.
… riddled with inexplicable and elementary errors of law and fact
Some judge needs to shut this circus down soon.
I’ve spoken to my cat about this, but it doesn’t seem to do any good.
This has so much WTF written all over it that it is hard to comprehend.
I did not have this on my fuck 2022 bingo card.
Black Jesus loves a paper trail.
Historically it was a little unusual for the president to be an incoherent babbling moron.
The cruelty is the point; the law be damned.
Usually wrong but never in doubt
Tick tock motherfuckers!
You are here: Home / Civil Rights / LGBTQ Rights / Gay Rights are Human Rights / We’ll See How That Works Out For You…
Tyro
Look, I see what you’re saying, but I know where they’re coming from: you can vote for Democrats because you want to repeal DADT, but you don’t know that it’s going to happen or not. But you might also like tax cuts, and you KNOW that you’re going to get them if you elect Republicans. So you get a guarantee that the Republicans are going to deliver on their promises, but only a chance that the Democrats will deliver on their own.
I keep saying this over and over again: voting isn’t an expression of your personal virtue. You’re doing it to get stuff. It’s not unreasonable to make the calculation that you would rather have tax cuts and no DADT repeal rather than no tax cuts and no DADT repeal.
arguingwithsignposts
political clue: they need one.
Cat Lady
Aren’t you supposed to be on a date?
DonkeyKong
Ask not what you can do for your country………..
Martin
How many days after the new Congress is sworn in that Issa launches the first investigation into why Obama spent $2B and used an aircraft carrier to go to India?
His first 4 investigations are supposed to be:
1. New Black Panthers
2. ACORN
3. Sestak job offer
4. Why Obama sent political staff as part of the BP response.
I think this might bump #3.
Dexter
Solid thinking all around which resulted in Boner getting the speakership. We will see how it will work out…I would be very surprised if there is no double dip recession and more job losses.
kommrade reproductive vigor
Couple of things:
1. For the foreseeable future any poll that asks people to identify their orientation is going to be skewed. (That 3% should be “3% identified themselves as gay.”)
2. Can we possibly hold off on the “Hur hur look at the dumb kW33rs!” for a few days? Why don’t we talk about the number of working class shlubs who shifted R-ward. Boneher’s going to fuck them over good and hard too.
MikeJ
@Tyro: And with the Dems, they got tax cuts and the Defense Authorization Bill is still held hostage to repealing DADT.
Voting for republicans gets you endless war, endless debt, and theocracy.
Southern Beale
OK just read Dino Rossi called Patty Murray to concede. Didn’t follow this race, is he a Tea guy or just a regular con?
Mnemosyne
@Tyro:
In other words, it’s exactly what a lot of us have been saying: the only thing keeping a lot of these guys from full-on teabaggery is the Republican gay-hatin’, and if the GOP would just give that up and concentrate on screwing over poor and middle-class people, they’d totally be on board with that.
At least John did a full-on conversion from conservative to liberal. I suspect most of these guys did not and the minute DADT repeal passes, they’re going back to Reagan worship.
celticdragonchick
The only thing we have left for getting rid of DADT is the LCR lawsuit. Ambers at the Atlantic reported yesterday that the Dems are dumping every major issue that could have been brought up in the lame duck session. DADT was specifically mentioned.
No politician will touch it again for 15 years.
Allan
That’s right, Cole. The third of gays who failed to vote Democrat cost us the House.
Someday you’ll understand that gays are people too.
But thanks especially for focusing on the down-side (look how many gays are stupid traitor fags) instead of the up-side (gee, if we can get DADT and ENDA passed, we could really reap some electoral benefit).
Ash Can
Oh John, you bad thing, you. You’re just looking to stir up a food fight here so that we’ll forget about your date and not ask you a bunch of impertinent questions.
arguingwithsignposts
@Southern Beale:
IIRC, he’s a regular idiot who tried to ride the Tea Wave to victory. But I’m not in Wa. Good news for them, though.
Comrade Javamanphil
@Southern Beale:
The difference being?
John Cole
@Allan: Wow, way to kick that outrage to 11.
And yeah, actually, the third of gays who failed to vote, along with the youth vote, as well as others who simply failed to vote, did cost the Democrats the house. That isn’t gay bashing, that’s math, you jackass.
celticdragonchick
@Allan:
We should be fucking grateful we only got thrown under the bus and not a damned tank, ya know?
I still voted a straight Dem ticket, but I am not spending a minute of my time knocking doors and calling people any more. I have my limits.
John Cole
@Cat Lady: Just got back, it was fun.
Southern Beale
@arguingwithsignposts:
Yeah just asked the Great Gazoogle it appears Palin threw her support behind some Teanut who was “openly hostile” to Rossi. So I guess this was one of those candidates she “endorsed” later when it looked like he was going to win. To up her average.
Speaking of, apparently there is some embarrassing Palin video (I know) making the rounds of the “real” TeeVee news. Haven’t wanted to look but I mention it because it does appear the establishment is throwing her under the bus, once and for all.
Southern Beale
And I’m sorry but is there a movie as lame as that Johnny Depp-Alice In Wonderland fiasco? We’re streaming it over the Wii; I find it truly obnoxious.
Cat Lady
@John Cole:
Yay! I hope you were excellent in her presence. :-D
ETA: We’ll see how that works out for you.
KG
@MikeJ: Tyro’s got a point… if you vote mainly (or entirely) because of Issue X and Party A says they will do what you want on Issue X and Party B says fuck you on Issue X, you’re probably voting for Party A. If, once in power, Party A does not act on Issue X, then there is some justification for not voting. For the Republicans, they have this issue with some pro-life voters… they vote entirely on abortion. If (ok, when) the GOP doesn’t do what they’re suppose to on abortion, those voters don’t show up.
Personally, I think it’s incredibly stupid to vote on one or two issues. Or because a particular candidate/nominee is from a particular party. But that’s what some people do, and it is their right.
celticdragonchick
@John Cole:
Pissing off your allies isn’t the best way to motivate them, and even the most fervant obots are having trouble explaining some of the, ahem, “mis-steps” the administration had with dealing with the GLBT community.
We had been some of the most dedicated volunteers in 2008, and some of the most afluent and generous donars.
That train left the station, and the administration shot themselves in both feet.
Southern Beale
@celticdragonchick:
I am finding the money game disheartening. I think we need to find a new way of doing things. I’m all for getting involved in some creative thinking/regrouping that acknowledged we will be forever outgunned in the money game thanks to CitizensUnited and looks for alternate, create ways to reach voters.
TR
Jesus Christ, that’s some powerful stupidity over there.
“Obama hasn’t immediately ended DADT, so hey, let’s rush out and support the party that elevated gay-bashing to an art form! Let’s support Dick Armey’s Tea Party! Remember how funny it was when he called Barney Frank “Barney Fag”?”
beltane
@Dexter: Kasich has already canceled massive infrastructure projects in Ohio. Soon, the only thing that state will be producing are blond Christians girls for the Asian sex trade.
celticdragonchick
@Southern Beale:
I heard the Last Airbender was pretty lame.
I haven’t dared look.
Zifnab
The gay vote didn’t vanish. It dropped 12%. And they’ll still be there in 2012. So if Obama wants to drop his appeal on the DADT provision, I’m sure that would be a good first step. And if the Democrats wanted to try and ram through that Defense Bill in the lame duck session, I’m sure both immigrants and gays will appreciate that, too.
You’ll notice the latinos voted for Democrats in droves. This may have had something to do with Democrats’ opposition to SB 1700, and Obama’s generally hispanic friendly justice department.
Omnes Omnibus
@Southern Beale: I watched it and some movie called “When in Rome” on a flight to Europe back in May. “When in Rome” is worse.
MattR
@KG: The best part is that it is actually a cycle because after they sit out the vote and Party B takes control and is actually worse on Issue X then they decide to return to voting for Party A
Martin
@celticdragonchick: So, you expect the rest of us to fight this battle for you while you kick back and allow the GOP to take over? Fuck that.
celticdragonchick
@Southern Beale:
I hear ya, but as long as corporations and straw fronts for foreign nations can buy elections, we will be hopelessly outmatched.
beltane
@Southern Beale: Rossi is a perennial loser in Washington politics. He’s already lost twice to Christine Gregoire and now to Patty Murray. He might want to go form a PAC with Rick Lazio.
Martin
@Zifnab:
Maybe. But Latinos are pretty pissed at Obama too. Immigration reform didn’t happen. ICE is deporting people at a substantially higher rate than Bush did. They’ve gotten less out of Dems specifically for their issues than the gay community has.
celticdragonchick
@Martin:
I voted. If they want more than that from me, they can stop being fucking cowards whenever the right starts screaming about “trannies and faggots”.
I’ll start doing more when I see a modicum of backbone from the people who want my help.
BombIranForChrist
I just think you’re really wrong about this Cole.
They voted for Obama, he did nothing.
So they are supposed to … keep voting for him? Because the Republicans will … do nothing?
They already know how voting for Obama worked out for them. It didn’t. So the next step is to punish Obama et al. so that they know that THEY ACTUALLY HAVE TO DO SOMETHING WHILE IN OFFICE.
This is one area where I just really think Cole, Dougj, etc. are just completely on the wrong side of the issue. You guys wonder why the Dems make the decisions they do, and yet, you reward them regardless of the decisions they make. I’m sorry, it just sounds retarded. You did nothing, but … the Republicans will do more nothing! So I will vote for you! And complain! Even though I am the cause of the problem! Because I can’t think outside of my brainstem.
I think the distance between you guys and Broderism is a lot smaller than you would like to think.
KG
@MattR: yeah, there’s that too. But that’s what happens with single issue voters on both sides all the time.
MattR
@celticdragonchick: That is absolutely your right, but don’t be surprised by the results of your inaction.
slag
@Southern Beale: I’ve been following it. He appears to be a pre-teabagging Cheney Con.
As an aside: As much as I dreaded the results of this election, I find myself being oddly sanguine about the future. A Latino friend of mine in Nevada voted for the very first time in his 30+ year lifespan. Out of all the people who I may or may not have convinced to vote, he’s my very favorite “get”. Even though I don’t even live in that state. I feel like that’s something. I don’t know what, but it’s something.
Also, too, he voted for Reid, of course.
Southern Beale
@celticdragonchick:
I voted. If they want more than that from me, they can stop calling me “fucking retarded” and other insults.
That’s what I usually tell the DCCC and DSCC when they call.
BTW want an accounting of all the money … soon.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
OT – I’m not much on petitions, but GOS has one up for Pelosi to keep her as part of the House Leadership, for people to sign. As far as I can tell, it doesn’t require you to be a member of GOS to sign it.
Martin
@celticdragonchick: Ok, and I’m dropping any reference to gay rights from my letters and calls to my reps. On polling on the issue of DADT or DOMA, I’m now firmly ‘I don’t care, everything else is more important’. I fought hard against Prop 8. I lost friends. I have neighbors that won’t even look at me any more. If your attitude is the thanks I get, it wasn’t worth it and I won’t make that mistake a 2nd time. I’ll fight if one of my kids comes out, but its no longer a personal issue for me.
Fight your own fucking battles.
TR
If anyone on the left side of the spectrum thinks Democrats will see them sitting on the sidelines and will push through policy because they’re withholding their votes doesn’t understand the first fucking thing about politics in general or today’s Democratic Party in particular. They’ll ignore your issue more and move right to pick up some Heath Shuler assholes to fill the void you left behind.
Want your issue addressed? Stay and fight, over and over again. Get more and more IOUs from politicians across the board, and call in those debts when you’ve got the pull. It’s how every group on the rise has made it.
Lurker
@BombIranForChrist:
President Obama signed the Matthew Shepard Act.
That was something.
Southern Beale
@slag:
I guess most of the time I’m pretty sanguine, I know the reason we lost is our base was not motivated and theirs was. That will be different in 2012.
What I can’t stomach is the GLOATgloatGLOAT from the right. Feels too much like 2004. The trolls over at my place have been awful. Had to delete a bunch of comments. And they got all pissed when you do that, you know. They have a CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT so hurl insults at your on your personal blog, don’tcha know.
slag
@BombIranForChrist: That’s one way to look at it. The way I look at it is, if things that are important to me don’t seem to be going the way I want them to, I get MORE involved–not less. My only other option is to try to not care. And that’s not a useful option when it comes to human rights.
Omnes Omnibus
@BombIranForChrist: DOMA, ENDA, and DADT did not happen. What about things like the Matthew Shepard Act, banning discrimination in housing, etc., and the sheer number of openly gay appointees in the administration? Was it enough? Clearly some say that it was not, but let’s be honest here, saying nothing happened is, at best, an exaggeration.
Edited for spelling which guarantees I missed something.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@Southern Beale: Yeah, I was really annoyed at Alice in Wonderland. Percy Jackson was a significantly better discovering who you are story.
celticdragonchick
@BombIranForChrist:
Obama went to a nice black tie dinner with the HRC.
Oh, and he signed the Matthew Sheppard Law, so if I get murdered and there is a cross burning on my lawn, it might get investigated as a hate crime.
The White House also put out a statement on the Stonewall Anniversary.
There has been a record number of low level gay political appointees put into offices, and one ridiculously over qualified transgendered female aeronautical engineer.
I guess that is something.
MattR
@Southern Beale: Tell them if they don’t like it they can go comment at Instapundit instead.
@TR: Well said. It is sad but true.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Shorter BombIranForChrist: : “Since Obama did nothing they gave up until he runs for office again.”
This only makes sense if you don’t have any sense to begin with.
So now that the House is firmly in the hands of the Republicans and the Democrats barely retain control of the Senate, do you think something can finally get done on issues that are important to gay people?
Please elaborate, I’m in need of a good laugh.
celticdragonchick
@Lurker:
Nice to know if I get killed.
Something a little more applicable while I am alive would be helpful.
Suffern ACE
@Lurker: I think that this is the election where actually doing something hurt. Bail out the auto industry, lose Michigan. Close the donut hole and pass an special boost to social security, lose the old people.
freelancer
@Southern Beale:
It’s Tim Fucking Burton.
slag
@Southern Beale: Interesting. I guess this is where my liberal smugness comes in. Even if DougJ despises it so, my general response is pretty simple: fuck ’em. They may have won this one, but they’re still an overwhelmingly moronic bunch of assholes. Sometimes overwhelmingly moronic bunches of assholes win. No matter what the storybooks say.
Loneoak
Republicans may run against gays with a bunch of bloviating and hateful nonsense, but Democrats have not been much better at actually forcing institutional changes for gay civil rights. If I was a rich homosexual (I’m neither), and was secure in my social circle and entirely unthreatened by the Dobsons of the world, I would feel I had a lot more to gain by voting R than D. Dobson can say whatever the fuck he wants about gays if I know that he can’t really touch my partner’s power of attorney, my adoption papers, my will, and my Canadian marriage. And that’s entirely reasonable. It’s not incumbent upon gays to have only one issue to vote on when they are otherwise secure in their well-being, it is incumbent upon Democrats to give them more than a double-backflip reason to vote D.
Let’s remember what happened when some big name gays blamed black voters for Prop 8. It was politically stupid and false. Same with blaming gays for the institutional cowardice of the Dems.
John Cole
@celticdragonchick: HE also ended the HIV ban, extended federal benefits to domestic partners, as well as changing the rules for visitation in hospitals, and a number of other things. He basically did everything he believes he has the fucking authority to do, and the Democrats came a few votes short of ending DADT.
The only way you could claim Obama did nothing is if you simply pretend that DADT is the only issue that mattered and he did nothing on it. And that isn’t even the case, as he consistently has called for the end of DADT and worked to make it happen.
And now this is when, confronted with facts, Celticdragonchick upchucks her usual bullshit about bestiality and DOMA, or links to the same fucking analysis by the Palm Foundation about executive orders.
It’s like a gay, bitter, Groundhog Day with her. But hey- sit at home and convince yourself Obama hates you. That is gonna get you what you want.
Southern Beale
It’s not that Obama did nothing it’s that he didn’t do enough, and by “enough” I don’t mean passing tons of legislation — though that would have been wonderful. People want fighters, they want the guy on the horse with his sword in the air shouting the battle cry, ready to charge at the enemy. Rightly or wrongly, people want a leader and a fighter, especially in this hyper-partisan climate. They don’t want an appeaser.
We got a sober intellectual, and while that may be good for some things it’s not good for rallying the troops. And on election day the troops must be rallied.
General Stuck
Despite all the obligatory sweet talk from Obama and congressional dems about working with the wingers per (cough) bipartisanship, I don’t think there will be any more big tax cuts for a couple of reasons. The first is that dems have the WH, and I think you will see the obstinate side to Obama now that the GOP is a player, instead of dem only, he doesn’t want his legacy to include leaving large deficits, and the fact that wingers step on their other message of bringing down the deficit when they bark about tax cuts for the upper tier. And I know, the game is rigged, or has been to the extreme the past two years with the media, but they have their viable GOP now back in the ring for the eternal cage match, so at least their sparking for the goopers will maybe slack off some. There may well be some Obama offered for smaller tax cuts for the middle class though.
Even after 9-11 and the wingers had to use reconciliation to pass additional tax cuts, and raising revenue to pay for core dem social programs is just as ideologically important as it is to wingers for lower taxes, which of course, is based on their stingy asses not wanting to help those in need.
As far as repealing DADT, that will likely be slowed down now, but that train will keep going since the military itself, at the high levels of command anyway, have given it their blessing. And aren’t Obama et al waiting for some kind of report due out in a month or two?
celticdragonchick
@Martin:
Make your own decisions. It is somewhat amazing that you would say what you did based on a comment from a person you have never met. If you don’t understand why GLBT people take some things personally (like broken promises, Rick Warren at the Podium, continued defense of DOMA and DADT in courts even after losses, refusal to engage or lobby for overturning DADT when it was up for a vote), than there is no point in discussing it further. He said things that he did not live up to. There were consequences. That is how the world works.
Southern Beale
@John Cole:
But most people don’t pay attention to that stuff. They don’t pay attention to the substance. People just see the image on TV.
Most people are watching their Real Housewives crap on TV and are not aware of the other stuff. And lord knows it’s not like our mainstream media informs us of it. And dammit the Dems failed in not SELLING THEIR RECORD. Instead they lets the Rethugs run around and make up shit about higher taxes (as usual) and “Obamacare” and whatnot.
Anya
I didn’t think it was possible to have a gay teabagger ( I am not talking about the self loathing closet types). I am guessing this one lost his way and came to the wrong blog, then couldn’t resist a little Obama bashing.
Martin
@Omnes Omnibus: Executive order requiring hospitals give gay couples the same visitation rights as straight couples. Expanded domestic partner rights for gay federal employees. Another executive order to extend gender identity to be covered under the Civil Service Act. He ordered the Pentagon to draw up plans to transition from DADT.
Yeah, what a fucking bigot.
Lurker
@celticdragonchick:
As an American, you now have the right to health care.
This might not seem like a big deal if you are blessed with health, wealth and/or insurance, but it is.
Southern Beale
@freelancer:
Yeah I know I’m not into Tim Fucking Burton I guess.
I have some other writing to do gonna head out before John yells at me.
:-)
Linda Featheringill
@Tyro:
Then you must be deliriously happy with the Democrats because you got a tax cut [all this year] but DADT didn’t pass.
Right?
slag
@celticdragonchick:
LOL! Consequences? For who? Every American in the bottom 98% of the economic spectrum gets to reap the “consequences” of this election. And you know who’s not in that group? Obama. That is, indeed, how the world works.
As a general rule, most faces look better with their noses still intact.
Violet
No one has mentioned that Rudy Giuliani has suggested the GOP repeal DADT:
Wouldn’t that be interesting if the GOP decided to take the issue from the Dems?
Omnes Omnibus
@Martin: Interesting to note that Obama is not afraid to use EOs to advance gay rights in some circumstances. It might just make one think that, in situations where he has not used an EO, it might just mean that he really does not think that he has the legal authority to do so. Well, it might if one weren’t looking for an excuse to condemn him. Could he have pushed harder for DADT, perhaps. Would it have had any effect? That is another question.
Calming Influence
I didn’t vote because Obama campaigned on the public option, and then dropped it like a hot potato as soon as he was elected. Yeah, I know; now a couple of million kids are in danger of losing health insurance they would receive from Obamacare. Meh.
I also didn’t vote because Obama didn’t get us out of Iraq like he sad he would. Sure, there’s fewer soldiers in Iraq now, but I’m pissed. So now we’ll probably start gearing up for war with Iran. Yawn.
Basically, I refused to vote because Democrats failed to pass legislation on a bunch of issues I care about. Sure, the House passed a lot of good bills, and it was the actually the Senate where those bills died; and now the House has a Republican majority and there’s ZERO chance that any bills from Democrats will ever make it to a vote, much less get passed. What-fucking-ever.
I mean, the Republicans can’t actually do that much damage, can they?
General Stuck
@Violet:
Aside from a few stragglers, I suspect it would sooner snow in hell.
Linda Featheringill
@celticdragonchick:
I agree. We probably need a new campaign method. GOTV efforts caused a lot of burnout in volunteers and had only a moderate amount of success.
We need a new method. Don’t know what it is, yet.
Guster
@Martin:
If you fought hard against Prop 8 for the gays, you were doing it wrong.
I knocked on doors in Maine for equal rights. I don’t have gay friends. I don’t know any gays. I don’t care about gay issues. I care about equal rights. You thought you were doing them a favor? That’s bullshit.
On the larger issue, I’m not sure why people have trouble with the concept that if you fail to deliver benefits to a certain demographic, less members of that demographic will vote for you.
Even if the other guy is shittier. People aren’t robots. It’s like talking to libertarians. In the real world, Cole, if you piss a group of people off, they will not work so hard for you, even if they’re threatened by a looming tidal wave of fucksticks.
MattR
@celticdragonchick: Do you really think your agenda is going to be advanced without the help and support of other special interest groups? And do you think those groups are more or less likely to invest their time, energy and money helping you when your response is to abandon them because the powers that be did not give you everything you wanted as quickly as you wanted?
Violet
@Linda Featheringill:
Make voting a requirement. Then you wouldn’t have to try to get people to vote. They’d have to do it.
kommrade reproductive vigor
Yeah! Like George Bush!
Oh wait.
TR
Wouldn’t that be interesting if the GOP decided to take the issue from the Dems?
Right after the GOP champions the abolition of gun ownership and removes “under God” from the pledge, I’m sure they’ll get right on that.
The GOP worships Guiliani, but there’s one issue that will forever keep him from getting the partys nomination, and you just quoted him on it.
Lurker
@Violet:
I’d love to see two parties compete to do what is right, but I don’t think this will happen as long as the GOP relies on the white evangelical vote.
Maude
@General Stuck:
Report due in December. Obama said it gives time to get the Defense bill passed before January.
So if Obama is anti gay, what will the Republicans be?
Perhaps people should remember the rightie Christians that are part of the Republican party. Some good old bible thumping will surely be along soon.
Suffern ACE
Could it be, perhaps, that there are gay INDEPENDENT voters. I mean, they live here and actually follow the news, are part of the culture and all, which means they are subject to all of its folly…so that when the country leans more Democratic those independents vote more democratic and when it leans more Republican they do the same? I wonder how many gays and lesbians believe that social security is broke…or that tax decreases are always made up for by economic gains.
And might gay voters skew a little to the young side, since, well, it might be that the young folk might be more open about giving their sexual orientation to a stranger in an exit poll than a person who grew up in an entirely different climate? And didn’t the young stay home a little more this cycle?
Don’t go giving Avarosis more power than he actually has…and presenting a few hypothesis of my own…
arguingwithsignposts
@TR:
I don’t even think they worship Guiliani.
General Stuck
@Guster:
In politics, and elections for people to choose who governs them, there is no sitting out of anything whether you choose to vote or not. The shit will rain like always, but your vote can maybe make it a drizzle with the possibility of a sunny day.
If you don’t vote for that possibility of a sunny day, then by default you vote for the hard shit to rain without mercy. I plan to point that fact out to those who think it doesn’t work that way.
Corner Stone
@BombIranForChrist:
Ohhh SNAP!
Martin
@celticdragonchick: It’s not just you. I swear that every Democrat with gay rights at the top of their list that I’ve met has taken your position. “Fuck every other policy that affects the public, if I don’t get my way, I’m outta here!”
Most of us fight for a broad set of policies. Education, health care, and so on. Health care doesn’t affect me – I’ve got great health care, but I fight for it for the benefit of other people. Same with gay rights. I could be a selfish prick and only fight for things that affect straight white males. I could fight against tax cuts and capital gains increases and corporate taxes – all things that will personally affect me. I could be a Republican. But I don’t. I fight for things that benefit others. You don’t. You’re the selfish rich white Christian male stuffed into some other form. You’re a Republican with a different agenda. So yeah, fuck you, and fuck every other single issue voter that takes their ball and goes home. If the gay community is going to turn into a single issue group, like the embryo protectors and the sharia law litigators, then they don’t get my support any more. This is a two way street – if you want my support, then you need to support more than just your own private issue.
My comment above about the Latino community was instructive. They’ve gotten very little Latino-specific support. Less than the gay community. But they care about health care (you don’t), they care about education (you don’t) they care about jobs (you don’t) they care about the rights of other groups (you don’t). They came out to vote for a broad set of issues that affect them and others outside of their community. You don’t.
Corner Stone
@Martin: This is about the douchiest thing I’ve ever seen you post.
Guster
@kommrade reproductive vigor:
‘Oh wait’ what? That’s exactly what people want. The difference is that they want someone who charges at the wrong enemy, and we want someone who charges at the right one.
Nerull
Supporting the party that would be happy to throw you in jail for the crime of being gay seems rather counterproductive, just because the other party tried, but was blocked by the first mentioned party, at repealing DADT.
TR
I mean, the Republicans can’t actually do that much damage, can they?
I’m guessing you’re under the age of 30, right?
Suck It Up!
@John Cole:
Not only are gay rights advocates saying that Obama hates them, but that he enjoys the anguish they are feeling.
kommrade reproductive vigor
It would also be interesting if flying monkeys popped out of may ass and mauled John Boehner. Both events are equally likely. No, tell a lie. Ass dwelling avian/simian hybrids are much more likely.
celticdragonchick
@John Cole:
Temporary rules for federal employees that you have noted time and time again can be ended by the neext President…but true, he did do that. For his employees.
He found time to call a basketball team the night before the vote. It might have been nice to make a couple of other calls..but what the fuck.
You know, that whole defending DOMA and DADT in court even after losing the initial cases isn’t just doing nothing It is actually working actively against us.
He left it to congress and there is no anecdoteal or other evidentiary evidence he has done anything to actually end it beyond a vague deal with Gates that lets the military tell the civilian leadership how they might implement ending DADT. Maybe.
I was wrong about the beastiality claim. The comparisons were to statuatory rape and incest. After the ensuing shitstorm, the brief was withdrawn and another brief entered without the most inflamatory comparisons. It has been alleged that a Bush appointee wrote the first brief, which is quite possible.
You mean this one?
http://www.palmcenter.org/press/dadt/releases/New+Study+Says+Obama+Can+Halt+Gay+Discharges+With+Executive+Order
Unfortunately, of course, that would upset Gates and Adm Mullen and would destroy their little deal where the military gets to do their survey and tell him how they will do it. So it isn’t gonna happen. You know as wll as I do, having been in the army same as I was, that the CINC can issue stop loss orders any time he likes. He can do it for fat soldiers, or soldiers getting the boot for drug violations or anything else.
My schoolwork always puts me on edge. You just catch the fallout but that is why I love ya.
I never claimed Obama hates us. I doubt it would occur to him to hate anybody at all. He has different priorities and we are expendable. It is calculation. Nothing more.
I do think some of our congressional types are gutless cowards, however.
Violet
@TR:
They don’t worship Giuliani. He failed miserably in his bid to be President. And even though he’s “America’s Mayor” he’s still too New York City for Real America.
The wingnuts can see the writing on the wall about gay rights. The country is moving in that direction and it’s not really a strong winning issue for them the way it was. The easier one to get past the evangelicals is ending DADT because that’s all about the troops and not The Sacrament Of Marriage. If the GOP decided to support it, they’d start talking about our security and how they’re equal rights pioneers (Lincoln freed the slaves!) etc. Then they’d pretend they’ve been for gay rights all along and it was that horrible Clinton who created this wretched DADT system and they’d take the lead on it.
Rudy is right that it would be an easy thing for them to do with very little downside if they set it up right. As easy as their followers are to lead around by the nose, I don’t think it’s beyond imagining that they could get Fox to talk up the “equal and fair” and “security” aspects of it (“So many gay soldiers are Arabic translators, they’re so important to our security”) and pretty soon the GOP rubes would be convinced they’d been for it all along.
Gravenstone
@Calming Influence:
More than you are apparently able to imagine. You’re a fucking idiot. Full. Stop.
hildebrand
Something to ponder – many seem to think that the Republicans are fine because they won’t make it worse – I find that hard to believe with the type of lunatic moralists that just got elected. The tea-bagger types are not libertarians, they are Jim De Mint moralists who will actively try to shred any gains made by the GLBT community. See the Iowa Supreme Court for exhibit A.
Democrats may not be going as fast as you would like, but the Republicans will soon be sprinting in the other direction as fast as possible.
kommrade reproductive vigor
@Guster: Funny, I want someone who doesn’t charge at anything. I prefer elected leaders who think things through and act prudently. That’s why I voted for Obama.
Anyone who listened to him for 5 seconds and saw a black King Arthur needs a head check as badly as the dipshits who see ZOMG Scary Radical.
Suck It Up!
@TR:
I think that comment was snark. at least I hope so.
TR
No offense, Violet, but the Republican Party you’re describing is in an alternate universe. Go look at the polling on gay issues and the GOP base. It’s never ever going to happen.
Guster
@kommrade reproductive vigor: Oh, I see: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/metaphor
celticdragonchick
Meh. My comment is in moderation, but I can’t believe I wrote “evidentiary evidence”
pimf
Lurker
@Suck It Up!:
If this is true, these “advocates” are to gay rights what Jane Hamsher was to health care reform. They stir passions, but misdirect their energies.
Sly
@kommrade reproductive vigor:
No. You vote against your interests, you deserve to be ridiculed. You vote for people who want to make you criminals, you deserve it even more.
Liberals are good at multitasking. We can do both.
@celticdragonchick:
People who don’t vote with you or for you aren’t your allies. You think you’re entitled to look at the Democrats and ask “What have you done for me lately?” Fine. Do that. But they’ll be looking back and asking the same question.
Suck It Up!
that’s why this country keeps picking suck ass politicians. stop living in a freaking western movie and focus on reality. We’re not damsels in distress.
Calouste
@Violet:
Seems like Rudy is not planning to run for President in 2012. When’s the next state wide race in New York?
Martin
@Guster:
No it’s not. Prop 8 will vanish in due course. I have no illusion that gay marriage will be either legal or recognized in all 50 states, probably before my kids get married. Prop 8 is a setback, not a trend. It sucks, but nobody will die because they can’t get married in this state. There are other issues that aren’t that way. There are other issues that actually will cause people to die.
I chose to fight Prop 8 because it directly affected people I know, because it seemed like the right fight at the right time. Opposing it would accelerate things in the right direction. We all have to pick our battles to a certain degree, and I picked that one for the reasons I outlined. It wasn’t a choice between fighting against Prop 8 and doing nothing, it was a choice between fighting against Prop 8 or fighting for something else – something that might affect me more directly or might affect other people. I don’t expect anyone to thank me, but I do expect us to pull together here.
fraught
@John Cole: Man, I wish I had said that. Good for you, John. But I’m a little pissed that I was linked to Aravosis’ POS hate-filled endless series o’ rants by hysterics screaming about never voting again or giving “another penny” to any Dem, ever again in the history of the world. I wish I didn’t do that because I feel sort of scummy after having been there.
hildebrand
@Suck It Up!:
Well, except MoDo.
celticdragonchick
@Guster:
This should be self evident, but I guess it isn’t.
Calouste
@Calming Influence:
You could have at least voted for a third party, you loser.
kommrade reproductive vigor
Fxd.
@Guster: Sorry, I had my hyperbole filter set on HIGH.
Nope. It’s still bullshit and will always be bullshit.
Guster
@Martin: Okay, that’s fair enough, I guess. But don’t you think, then, that the same ‘choose your battles’ holds true for people in re. supporting Obama. I don’t think anyone’s saying they’d do _nothing_. I don’t think anyone (here) is saying that they wouldn’t vote for him. I just think people are saying, ‘Given the apparent policy priorities, I may choose a different battle for a time.’
Paula
@Suffern ACE:
Well, yeah, I mean, the gay community like any community is going to be subject to the same general trends that everyone else is subject to: a lack of information, conservative propaganda, MSM narratives, midterm apathy. The mistake is that Americablog is framing it like it’s part of some “mass” movement among gays, and for Cole for taking that framing at face value when it might only be a version of the same discontent that affects segments of the liberal voting base.
Latinos are, indeed, fucking pissed @ Obama for almost literally doing nothing on immigration reform as of yet. But given the Republicans’ pathological willingness to ride the xenophobia train, they don’t really have much choice, do they?
The Mathew Shepard Act:
Conceived as a response to the murders of Matthew Shepard and James Byrd, Jr., the measure expands the 1969 United States federal hate-crime law to include crimes motivated by a victim’s actual or perceived gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, or disability.[3]
The bill also:
* removes the prerequisite that the victim be engaging in a federally-protected activity, like voting or going to school;
* gives federal authorities greater ability to engage in hate crimes investigations that local authorities choose not to pursue;
* provides $5 million per year in funding for fiscal years 2010 through 2012 to help state and local agencies pay for investigating and prosecuting hate crimes;
* requires the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) to track statistics on hate crimes against transgender people (statistics for the other groups are already tracked).[4]
The Act is the first federal law to extend legal protections to transgender persons.[5]
Contrary to what celticdragonchick is implying, you don’t have to get killed to reap the benefits of this bill. If you are persecuted for being who you are, and would like to report it, but local authorities have neither the inclination nor the funds to investigate and prosecute the crime properly — the government will back you up. Which is a big support to minorities in small, financially strapped towns who may otherwise be afraid to report what happens to them or local authorities who find themselves unable to provide guidance/protection to residents on their own. And it’s especially important now given the rising number of bullying deaths reported in the media, and also the rising number of crimes against Latinos.
JMC in the ATL
I’m gay and an O’bot, but I totally get why a lot of lgbt folks feel burned. I don’t personally, but I also lead a fairly privileged existence. I am a white male, I have a professional degree and a good job with the State, so the benefits are excellent, and I don’t come off as effeminate and I am a big guy, so I don’t worry too much about getting bashed.
But I get why other queer folk feel put out. There’s a lot of day to day BS that many of us have to put up with, and to have someone who explicitly promised to be a “fierce advocate” show more tone-deafness than fierceness stings. I honestly think that he set expectations for GLBTs far too high. He was going to win a plurality of our votes regardless, so overpromicing was kind of dumb.
Suck It Up!
I’m so sick of the childish grudges being held over a private comment on the tactics of one group that wanted to put out ads against blue dogs. You damn well know he wasn’t calling all liberals fucking retards. And you damn well know that he wasn’t calling all liberals the professional left. Even the guy who wrote that article made it crystal clear that Gibbs was referring to those on cable/media not their fans or the entire left. Is your cause not important enough that you have to make shit up to get people to side with you?
thank goodness abolitionists, civil rights activists, suffragists, etc. had more discipline, patience and guts to keep going.
Martin
@Corner Stone: Yeah, I know. I think it’s probably far and away the douchiest thing I’ve posted.
Look, I get that people are disappointed. I’m not saying they’re wrong for that. But this attitude from celticdragonchick is like sitting on the sofa ranting about the show on TV and being too fucking lazy to reach over and change the channel on the remote control. Shit, if the African American community took celticdragonchick’s attitude, they’d still be drinking at their own water fountains. They fought. They didn’t give up. I fucking hate quitters. If you won’t fight for your own cause, why the fuck should anyone else fight for it?
celticdragonchick
@Martin:
Indeed, and I pick my battles because they directly influence my life. I think that escapes some of the people here who don’t understand why GLBT people get pissed that they can still be banned from visiting their loved ones in hospitals or can have their wills challenged in probate court since they don’t carry the same weight as marriage.
You wonder why I take things personally?
Being told that my marriage may be legally worthless tends to do that, and being told I’m not greatful enough for window dressing and half measures doesn’t cut it.
Tattoosydney
@BombIranForChrist:
Yeah, that’s right, the Republicans are going to do nothing on gay rights.
There’s no chance they will spend the next two years doing everything they can making life miserable for gay people, so they must be better than the Democrats.
Suck It Up!
@hildebrand:
lol. No, she needs a daddy.
celticdragonchick
@Paula:
Yes, you don’t actually have to be killed..but it is virtually unheard of for the Feds to step in with hate crimes charges in anything but a murder case Rodney King is one of the few I can think of.
celticdragonchick
@Martin: \\
I didn’t quit.
I recognized that we will get nothing from the legislative process or the President and will have to do it through the courts.
Just like African Americans did.
You put your time and money into what will work.
Suck It Up!
Republicans ARE doing something. They are trying to convince (and sometimes succeed) people that gay marriage will bring about marriage to horses, that God hats fags, that your unions will bring about the apocalypse, that gays are sex crazed and just one notch below pedophilia. They don’t have to pass any bills to fuck you over, making your neighbors fearful of you is enough to keep gay friendly candidates from winning office. That’s all they need to do.
Martin
@Omnes Omnibus: I don’t think it’s that at all. In the case of DADT, if he passed the EO, why would Congress fight to eliminate it permanently? It’d go it the same category as abortion – sitting in legal never-never land, never requiring a difficult vote, and always easier to ignore.
ENDA just doesn’t have that kind of public attention. I don’t think that the EOs he issued for federal employees would undermine momentum for ENDA. As for the EO for hospital rights, that’s now redundant – ACA requires that hospitals extend same-sex visitation rights in order to be eligible for Medicare/Medicaid billing. CMS implemented that immediately.
It’s all tactical.
jay
@celticdragonchick: Right. You shouldn’t piss off your allies – sort of like you shouldn’t take a giant shit on every single thing the Dems were able to accomplish and assist rightwing narrative-setting by calling things like the stimulus a waste that does no good or health care meaningless or financial reform meaningless, etc.
I’m curious, how many folks actually lobbied Congress to change DADT versus those who said, “Make it happen, Obama!” How much work was done by the activists to generate political momentum for the change and let the President know he wasn’t just standing there on the field by himself with the do-nothing’s in the stands screaming “Make it happen harder?”
It’s not like folks kept fighting for their issues after 2008. Many just kind of sat on the couch, bitched on the blogs, and expected everything to happen at the wave of Obama’s magic wand.
Left Coast Tom
@celticdragonchick:
Huh?! I guess the civil rights act, voting rights act, fair housing act, etc., just didn’t happen on your planet.
What the civil rights movement did was act through all three branches of government at once. Since the fight against DADT, and the fight for recognition of same-sex marriage, is also a civil rights movement, why not follow their example instead of claiming they did something other than what they did?
UPDATE: FYWP…the “Just like African Americans did” text is part of the blockquote, on planets other than the one WordPress resides upon.
Martin
@Guster: No, celticdragonchick stated quite clearly she’d do nothing. I’ve seen that repeated all across the gay community.
I won’t do nothing, I’ll still fight for better health care and for better education and better tax policies and so on – and they’ll benefit from all of these even though they won’t do shit to help the rest of us. But I’m no longer willing to push those issues down in favor of rights for people unwilling to help themselves.
kommrade reproductive vigor
Oh, if only there were an easy to access information source where we could check!
WASHINGTON – A federal grand jury has indicted Christopher Shane Montgomery, a resident of Bastrop, La., for conspiring to commit a hate crime, tampering with a witness and lying to federal authorities, announced the Justice Department and the U.S. Attorney’s Office for the Western District of Louisiana. If convicted of these charges, Montgomery faces up to 40 years in prison.
The four-count indictment alleges that on or about Nov. 6, 2007, Shane Montgomery and another person not identified in the indictment tied a noose around the neck of a dead raccoon and hung the raccoon and noose from a flagpole at Beekman Junior High School in Bastrop in order to intimidate African-American students attending the school under a court-ordered busing policy. Montgomery is also charged for lying on two occasions to an FBI agent investigating the hate crime and for tampering with a witness during the investigation.
This case is being investigated by the FBI. This case is being prosecuted by Trial Attorney Kevonne Small of the Civil Rights Division and Assistant U.S. Attorney Mary Mudrick of the Western District of Louisiana.
Also found this after .3 seconds with the magic search function.
You may also want to read up on the hate crimes/fed connection.
Guster
@Martin: I think she said she’d vote for Dems but not knock on doors or call for them. Leaving open the possibility that she’d knock or call for other things.
But of course she’d know what she meant better’n I do.
kommrade reproductive vigor
Good Lord woman, if you’re a troll, I salute you. If not, you’re too fucking stupid for a mother’s tears.
Corner Stone
@Martin: Honestly I do not give a shit how she acts, or does not act.
I’ll never be pregnant either, but that doesn’t stop me from working for equality on that issue as well.
jcricket
@Violet: So funny – was thinking the same thing, but in a different way. If the courts or something else gets rid of DADT, gays will suddenly be all, “see, I can still vote for Republicans, no biggie, I sure do love some tax cuts”.
I think the story of the gays this election is the story of the Dem base. De-motivated by a number of factors, not-the-least of which is the Democrats inability to band together, overcome their differences, and pass actual Democratic legislation. Too much time fearing their own shadows, the punditry and what they say on Fox News to, you know, actually legislate.
Don’t worry – I’m still voting, and I’m still voting for Democrats. I’m mad as hell (Dems weren’t liberal enough) and I let them know it all the time – but the stakes for me and my family’s future are too high (global warming denialism, gutting of social security/medicare, erosion of the tax base that provides basic infrastructure in this country, healthcare law) to pout in a corner while waiting for the Democrats to come running after me.
As someone posted up-thread, every interest group that has gotten their way has done through by agitating the political party that will listen, not by waiting at home.
celticdragonchick
@Left Coast Tom:
Those were years after Brown V Board, and you somehow forgot that marriage rights were established in Loving V Virginia.
None of those things would have been possible until Brown V Board overturned Plessey V Ferguson which had provided the legal rational for Jim Crow and separate but equal.
I got an A- in African American history last year.
celticdragonchick
@kommrade reproductive vigor:
Go fuck yourself
I took the classwork and I wrote enough papers on it.
No amount of legislation would have made a damned bit of difference until Plessey V Ferguson was overturned.
Seriously, if you don’t know the history and haven’t had any classes on this subject, stop drooling on your keyboard you fucking hack.
Omnes Omnibus
@Martin: I don’t disagree that if there was an EO ending DADT Congress would never touch the issue. There also is the fact that an EO cannot trump a duly enacted statute.
Martin
@celticdragonchick:
Yeah, Obama and Dems fixed the first one. Why don’t you know that? Don’t make me heap ‘ignorant of policies that directly affect you’ onto this pile of things I’m pissed about.
I never asked you to be grateful nor did I say to not take it personally. I asked you to not fucking quit fighting for those rights, and to recognize that there are other rights out there that need to be fought for. But no – it’s all me, me, me, isn’t it?
Corner Stone
@jcricket:
Well, it’s an interesting question isn’t it? If the lawsuit by LCR does end up being the prime mover for the end of DADT, should the GLBT community reward Republicans?
Left Coast Tom
@celticdragonchick: I didn’t forget any of that. I also didn’t forget that legislative actions for civil rights occurred through the ’50s and ’60s, that Truman desegregated the armed forces in the ’40s. I also didn’t forget that the legislative victories in the ’60s didn’t end the problem, but in addition to helping matters they granted causes of action through which further court victories could occur. Hell, I live in a city that, while very racially diverse today, once had to settle a fair housing act suit out of court. A suit made possible by the legislative victories in the ’60s.
Perhaps that’s the “-” part.
Lurker
@celticdragonchick:
Fair enough, but the courts may not be enough. Gays had the right to marry in California, but a 51% vote for Proposition 8 undid the court’s decision on gay marriage.
More recently, the Iowa judges who came to the same conclusion as the California judges got voted out of office.
SectarianSofa
@celticdragonchick or whoever,
One way I look at it is to see who the voters are who will be pushing their issues behind the scenes. Republicans have the religious right, who among other stupidities think the Bible/God says gays are sinful or abominable. Democrats, not so much. Anyway, I’m too exhausted to argue this. I have to argee with John in the sense that unfair as it is, shit doesn’t happen over night. And sniping and firebagging is counterproductive as all fuck. I guess it makes people feel better, except for the ones it pisses off.
Have you worked behind the scenes, local party stuff, primaries? People are trying to make a difference. I’ve voted with local democrats in my horribly conservative county to specifically submit GLBT rights and anti-anti-gay rights declarations in the platform. GLBT representation is built into the delegate assignment process. There are people with backbones. They may not be at the top yet, or they may be too quiet, now, if they are there. But meaningful change starts at the bottom, where the people really care, and it doesn’t trickle up, it has to be pushed, carried, cajoled, screamed at, fought for, etc..
If you’ve done the work and are disappointed, fine. I’m always disappointed, but I know no one as liberal as I am will be elected probably ever. That’s how it goes. Big country. Truth rolls slowly. If you think you’ll get anything but prayers for your sin on the Republican side, well, I don’t think you know the party faithful.
Martin
@Corner Stone: How many women have walked away from helping the Democratic party because they didn’t pass an abortion rights bill?
kommrade reproductive vigor
@celticdragonchick: Yup. Dumb as a brick and loud with it. I’m leaning towards troll. Cos really, knows jackshit about hate crimes (and can’t figure it out) sort of clashes with an A- in anything except ass scratching.
celticdragonchick
@Martin:
Without marriage, the next of kin ( like the mom and dad) can still set the visitation policy and absolutely can challenge any power of attorney regarding medical dcision making.
The presidential order will not likely affect what decisions the next of kin can make, and they can say the intimate partner is not welcome.
The order will stop hospitals from acting unilaterally like the one in Florida did when they banned a woman’s partner and her children from seeing her in the hospital as she was dieing from a stroke.
celticdragonchick
@kommrade reproductive vigor:
Then cite where I am wrong or stfu.
Let me be impressed with your amazing grasp of history in the civil rights era.
I admitted I was wrong in my post to John concerning the beastiality claim on the DOMA filing.
Show me where the hell I am wrong here.
I would really like to know what your academic credntials are, in any event.
Calouste
@celticdragonchick:
__
Allies is two way street. If you’re not willing to help other people get a job and proper health care, don’t expect them to care much, or even have the time to think, about your marital rights.
Coalition. Look it up in the dictionary.
chaseyourtail
I’ve heard so much complaining about Obama from gay activists ever since he was elected. I’ve always thought this discontent/rage was extremely misguided and misplaced. Now with the Repigs holding the House, gay issues will be entirely ignored. I will always support equal rights for gays and lesbians but how can I take their quest for equality seriously when they consciously attempt to sabotage their own agenda. Choosing to sit out elections as a method of furthering your political goals is a foolish and ineffective strategy…kind of like cutting off your nose so you can smell better.
Corner Stone
@Martin: I don’t know. How many?
celticdragonchick
@Calouste:
Funny how that street never seems to be two ways when we ask for anything.
We give time, talent and money..but progress will come next year, or next term or maybe when the stars align.
There is nothing two way about the street. We are an atm.
Palooza
Shorter liberal special interest group X: wahhhh… we didn’t get exactly what we wanted in two years and now we were going to lying on the floor, bawl, hold our breath and kick our feet… waaaahhhhhh wahhhhhaaaa.
Fucking idiots.
SectarianSofa
@celticdragonchick:
Oh, come on now. Who’s the we? You speak for whom? Who’s the ATM and who does the work? I don’t buy it. I don’t think you’ve done the work. I don’t think you know who does. You’re outraged by proxy.
Omnes Omnibus
@celticdragonchick: Nothing that has been pointed out to you as progress seems to count for you. EOs aren’t permanent. Legislation supported by the President that will end DADT is pending. It was attached to a must pass bill. Please define progress.
Left Coast Tom
@celticdragonchick:
I gave money to No on 8. I guess you’re telling me I’m just an ATM for your cause.
SectarianSofa
@celticdragonchick:
@SectarianSofa:
Or did you get an A- in that course, too?
Allan
Oh hi. Went to have a little dinner and I see the conversation continued. Lots to take in here. I’ll get back to some of you when I’ve read it all.
Obama was not on the ballot this year. People voted in hundreds of individual elections for specific candidates.
I look forward to learning more about how different groups of people voted, and how that compares to other elections, and how they’re trending over time, and seeing what we can all learn from that.
Jumping to conclusions and blaming people is pretty lame. I just don’t see John knocking on any other group of people for containing a minority who vote Republican.
Suffern ACE
@chaseyourtail: No one actually asks for us to vote for our activists. If I could vote some of them out, I would but I can’t.
SectarianSofa
@Allan:
Firebaggers? I mean, what the fuck, isn’t it the same thing?
TEL
That link has some of the most mind-bogglingly stupid commenters I’ve ever read.
celticdragonchick
@SectarianSofa:
The gAyTM debate – the Obama Admin and Congress make the choice obvious
by: Pam Spaulding
Sun Jul 11, 2010 at 08:35:55 AM EDT
We’re keeping the gAyTM CLOSED.
My two cents…
Number one – thank you Blenders (and lurkers) for the large number of comments and dialog about the gAyTM and whether it should be opened for the DNC. It’s good to see the passion about this issue, along with well-reasoned arguments to keep it shut.
After reading all of those comments, I went back into the PHB archives and retrieved just few of the images that have run on the Blend over the last year and put them in the post. The reality-based conclusion in the coffeehouse is that we’ve had it with the hopey-changey head fakes and fear-based approaches to extracting cash out of the gAyTM. It’s over.
http://www.pamshouseblend.com/diary/16688/the-gaytm-debate-the-obama-admin-and-congress-makes-the-choice-obvious
Omnes Omnibus
@Allan: Someone, perhaps not John (possibly ABL), went after young people.
SectarianSofa
@celticdragonchick:
You speak for yourself. I don’t think you speak for whoever it is you think you speak for.
celticdragonchick
@Omnes Omnibus:
They aren’t according to John…or am I rude for pointing out that he keeps telling us that?
ChrisNYC
@celticdragonchick: This is just flat wrong. There were basically zero changes following Brown — that’s why the Civil Rights Act was necessary. If African Americans had said in 1954, well, this is just meaningless words, which it basically was, and stopped supporting the legislators that could actually do something for them, they would have waited a lot longer than the bloody ten years they did. Instead, they made themselves into a voting coalition that reliably (key word) delivered voters for a broad range of issues, including their own.
SectarianSofa
@celticdragonchick:
Have you actually read anything anyone has posted here? Other than the frustrated ad hominems that have resulted when people have realized that you haven’t apparently read anything that people have posted here?
celticdragonchick
@SectarianSofa:
More like I speak with others in my community. And we are pissed off.
Obama and the dems in Congress couldn’t have solved everything, but they could have done far better and far more than what we were handed.
Thusly, I will spend my time and money on avenues more productive.
I will still vote for them. It isn’t like I have a choice there…but how I support people beyond just voting is something else altogether.
Omnes Omnibus
@celticdragonchick: Well, do you want them or not? You know, they aren’t a one size fits all fix. In some cases they are the appropriate and/or best method to solve a problem. In others, they are not.
Just Some Fuckhead
I haven’t really gotten into the finger pointing of who is to blame. While we haven’t all necessarily been together in the last two years, we certainly all lost together.
At the very least, hopefully this will be a lesson to you Steely-Eyed Realists. It isn’t enough to claim the other side is worse. Exit polls indicated voters felt Republicans are worse.
It’s just really bad politics to mock the folks on your own side, accuse them of wanting “ponies”, being too stupid to understand the complex realities you feel you have mastered. All you are doing is making a bad situation worse.
Palooza
@Martin: Martin for the win. If you are a left leaning special interest group that takes its ball home when you fail to get instant gratification, don’t expect the rest of us to support you or your cause. Doesn’t matter what the issue is. You want to shoot my efforts in the foot — screw you then.
Karen
@Violet:
Until he’s running for office again.
Allan
@Martin: I haven’t read all your comments yet, but there are lots and lots of progressive issues out there, and everyone should find the ones that are most meaningful to them personally and focus on them. It’s always best not to work on a cause if your heart’s not in it.
SectarianSofa
@celticdragonchick:
Exactly. I don’t think you know what your community is. Get out more?
celticdragonchick
@ChrisNYC:
The Civil Rights Act was impossible without Brown because the SCOTUS had already ruled in Plessey that the states could do whatever they damned well liked.
Yes, Eisenhower dragged his feet on enforcing Brown, so the CRA started to remedy that afterwards…but the CRA would have been useless until Brown overturned Plessey. That is why the NAACP looked long and hard for the perfect test case they could take before the SCOTUS. Everything was riding on that. You really cannot overstate just how damned important it was to get rid of Plessey.
SectarianSofa
@Just Some Fuckhead:
I want ponies and the Sharia law. But apparently Obama and the voters say I can’t have them.
Mnemosyne
@celticdragonchick:
Not just any basketball team — a girls’ basketball team. He actually thought that women’s sports were as important as men’s sports and made the same courtesy call to a lowly women’s basketball team that he did to every men’s sports championship team in the country.
If you’re going to use the slam, get it right. He called a bunch of girls when he could have been doing something important with those five minutes.
celticdragonchick
@SectarianSofa:
Well, being a full time parent and student puts a crimp in that.
I do hang with the Revolutionary War Re-enactor crowd and the warhammer table top wargame crowd.
I don’t talk politics with either bunch. I do talk history an awful lot, since American History is my minor.
Big time geek. *shrug*
SectarianSofa
@celticdragonchick:
Don’t know — I may go with ChrisNYC on this one, ’cause he has more letters after his name.
Omnes Omnibus
@celticdragonchick: Yes, there is an interaction between the three branches of government in this issue. Each can fulfill a role. What’s your point.
Calouste
@celticdragonchick:
I don’t see why progressives should even ally with you. It’s pretty obvious you will dump your allies for more money (hmmm tax cuts) once you got what you want.
Edit: you being personal, not gays in general
celticdragonchick
@Mnemosyne:
I rather think the gender involved was irrelevent, but it is nice to see you are aware of what happened.
A call or two to the Senators we needed might have been nice as well, or even a stratagy session with Reid since this was kind’ve a high profile bill that Obama claims to want passed.
It might not have worked, but we can’t really know that at this point.
celticdragonchick
@SectarianSofa:
Well, I guess he does.
Suffern ACE
@Karen: Exactly, and he isn’t running for anything right now. Nor is Mehlman, nor is Norquist. And it must frustrate the community to know, the Republicans aren’t actually interested in their votes or their money. They’ve got plenty of money. What they want are young voters who aren’t interested in being all angry all the time. But whatever…Republicans can have diverse views on the issues when out of office.
SectarianSofa
@celticdragonchick:
Sigh.
We may argue, but I’d get your back in a fight.
General Stuck
We don’t take lessons from Blurry-Eyed Buffoons
Omnes Omnibus
@Mnemosyne: The question with that is always this: Who should Obama have called? Biden, with 30 or so years in the Senate and good relations with many Senators, was working the phones. It is my understanding the Ladies from Maine cannot stand Obama as a person. I doubt, as a result, that he would have been able to persuade them of anything. Biden could make the same promises on behalf of the WH and had the personal relationships. Should Obama have made calls that might have been counterproductive just so the optics were good? Fuck.
celticdragonchick
I always manage to touch some real nerves on this one subject.
Nobody (well almost nobody) was even slightly interested when I tried to explain the fundamentals of the Laramide Orogeny and sub horizontal oceanic crust subduction in the late Cretaceous back on the thread on Yucca Mountain earlier this week. (small wonder…If you managed to read halfway before falling alseep it would have been a minor miracle)
I actually find that a lot more interesting in many ways, but I am not as emotionally invested in structural geology.
I’ll leave you guys to it, and I may just not worry about popping in on any other threads on this subject since it really does make everybody angry and I am tired, honestly.
I am tired of being angry, and I am not really wild about always having the same fight on this subject. We have very different perspectives on this, and when it comes down to how I spend my time and money..I really don’t think I need answer to anybody on that count. I still vote blue, and there it is.
Good night and have a better day tommorrow.
celticdragonchick
@SectarianSofa:
I really appreciate your saying that. Thank you.
Seriously, thank you. That was cool.
Suffern ACE
@celticdragonchick: So did you think you were buying their votes with that gayTM? Your saying stuff out loud that even the corporate shills won’t say about our cynical political culture.
celticdragonchick
@Omnes Omnibus:
I hadn’t heard that. Very unfortunate, if true, and it would go some ways to explaining why he didn’t reach out to them.
Interesting.
Mnemosyne
@celticdragonchick:
Nope, the gender of the team that he called is absolutely vital to the slam. Imagine reversing it for a minute:
“Obama should have been working the phones to pass DADT but instead he called the San Francisco Giants to congratulate them on winning the World Series! What an asshole!”
Sorry, doesn’t work, because people understand that the World Series is kind of a big deal. It only works as a slam if it’s a lowly, unworthy, laughable women’s team from the WNBA who won a joke championship, so clearly Obama shouldn’t have wasted valuable time calling them. It doesn’t work without the misogyny.
Obama spent a whole heck of a lot more time giving in-person congratulations to the NHL champion Pittsburgh Penguins that same week and yet you don’t hear people slamming him for that. And yet that was a whole half-hour he could have been using to call senators and not the mere 5 minutes he used to call the WNBA champions.
Funny how you see homophobia everywhere but you can’t see misogyny when it’s right in front of your face.
beergoggles
I’m sure that there are enough gays that are rich and white to see an advantage to voting republican. More affluent and white gays tend to self-identify as gay than any other gay demographic, so it wouldn’t surprise me that this would be the first group of gays to decide to ditch Democrats.
@Nerull:And forget threatening this group with the ‘republicans want to throw you in jail’ crap. You know and I know that it doesn’t work on rich white folks, no matter how gay they are.
I worked my ass off for gay-friendly Dems (especially my governor). I sent money to fight off the NOM assaults across the country (you do realize that in addition to fighting off regular republicans, we also need to divert funds to fight off the catholic and mormon churches right?). I just could not bring myself to donate anything to bigots like Ellsworth; I was debating actually donating to his opponent because I was so pissed that the Dem machine nominated him. Instead, I sent that $ to the trevor project.
It’s also quite possible I live in a gay echo-chamber; I have over 500 gays on my facebook friends list and fewer than 10 of them are ‘libertarian’ or voted anything other than Dem (altho some may have voted Green where possible). So that definitely doesn’t represent the numbers that the pollsters got.
I will do all I can to help liberal democrats but no, I will not vote for Obama again after he appealed ENDA and DADT.
celticdragonchick
@Suffern ACE:
Money, time and talent are the only way to get access to power in Washington, and we all know that. Sad state of affairs, but that is the lay of the land.
Spending your time and money on unproductive avenues starts to look foolish, given enough time and money that do not produce results.
Mnemosyne
@celticdragonchick:
What is this, Memento? You’ve been told multiple goddamned times that Susan Collins and Olympia Snowe dislike Obama on a personal level, and you act like it’s new information every goddamned time someone says it.
ETA: This is why people keep getting angry with you, BTW — because we tell you things over and over and over again and it takes about 20 repetitions to get it through your brick wall.
celticdragonchick
@Mnemosyne:
I did not recall that the team was a women’s team until you reminded me.
I don’t care about basketball in the first place, and I really have little idea why it is such a big deal to other people.
Another sport with vastly over paid entertainers, but that is the invisible hand of the free market, or something.
Anyways, I turned down the volume on my misogyny rants after I ended up being catastophically wrong on the Duke Lacross rape case. I had a signed letter printed in the paper that was all but calling for the players to be hanged by the neck until dead.
That didn’t quite work out like I thought, so I try to be a bit more careful when I start alleging misogyny these days.
Omnes Omnibus
@Mnemosyne: To be fair, few people can say things with as much panache as I can.
celticdragonchick
@Mnemosyne:
You may have me confused with sombody else. I hadn’t come across that tidbit before, and I acknowledge it would go some way towards explaining why he did not talk to them.
celticdragonchick
Anyways, good night.
Allan
@Palooza:
“Left leaning special interest group” is an interesting choice.
You’re into LGBT rights to the extent that it results in Democratic votes.
The fact that not all LGBT people vote Democratic, even though a clear majority do, is enough for you to conclude that there’s an insufficient ROI in caring about our civil rights.
We all make our choices.
Allan
@celticdragonchick: Rest well, I’ll be up for a while.
Mnemosyne
@celticdragonchick:
Yes, you had, because I told it to you last week the last time we had this argument.
How many times did people tell you that, no, that infamous brief didn’t compare gay marriage to child molestation until you finally accepted it? Same with the WNBA slam, which is something Oscar Leroy and I have been kicking around since he hauled it over here from Americablog.
burnspbesq
@celticdragonchick:
Riiiight. Umm, did you sleep through the lecture on separation of powers in PoliSci 102? Have you not noticed the unprecedented level of party discipline displayed by the Republicans in the last Congress?
I have a gay teenage son. I am your natural ally. Why are you going out of your way to alienate me?
None so blind as those who poke out their own eyes.
Mnemosyne
@celticdragonchick:
Yes, if you personally were wrong about the Duke rape case, that means that all other women must be equally wrong when they point out a clear case of woman-bashing, even when it’s one that’s completely unrelated to the Duke case. Good one.
fraught
Ah, a thoroughly enjoyable thread in which celticdragonchick dominates the discussion by saying something provocative and dumb and then fights to exhaustive length the responding comments which disparage her judgement and intelligence by pulling out her report card and showing us her A- before she tumbles adorably into her beddy, convinced that everyone really, really likes her. Much fun tonight, especially John Cole pwning her and her crumbling like a cheap cookie in her reply back to him. It was better than watching Lana Turner crashing her car in her fur stole. Thanks everyone.
Mnemosyne
@celticdragonchick:
So what’s the gay rights equivalent of Plessy v Ferguson?
It was Lawrence v Texas. If you’ve been waiting around for the magic court case that will clear the path for gay civil rights the way Plessy v Ferguson cleared the way for black civil rights, you missed it by about 7 years.
Suffern ACE
@Allan: A lot of this is based on a sample size and in essence, it is very possible that gays and lesbians didn’t really vote all that differently than they did in other elections. That 80% might have been too high anyway. So it is a mountain being made of a molehill.
What people are objecting to is the constant statements that “I’m through the the dems.” Over the issue. I understand why people are upset, but yeah, that is taking your ball home. While progress has been slow, might not some other groups also benefit from a Democratic representative, people who are supposedly allies and also deserving of support? That’s what taking your ball home is.
Also, too…the talk about the gayTM…that is how special interest groups talk.
celticdragonchick
@Mnemosyne:
I was actually getting ready to shut off the computer.
For the last time tonight:
No I did not know about Snow and Collins hating Obama. I am actually a bit shocked that they would. I would not forget that, and you would do well to post the link where I engaged you on this subject and acknowledged seeing it. If I left the thread to go to class for four hours and you brought it up later..then I missed it.
The brief did compare same sex arriage to child molestation. It did not compare SSM to beastiality, and I have admitted my mistake. The brief was withdrawn, and has been blamed in some quarters on a Bush appointee who was stil in the DOJ.
http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/08/doj_has_60_days_to_appeal_ruling_that_declared_dom.php
I quoted the pertinent parts from the brief a couple of weeks ago, as well as linking to and rebutting claims that it really didn’t mean to equate my marriage with incest and child marriage. If you want to play semantic games with the difference between child molestation and child marriage, then I shall not bother indulging you any farther.
As far as the “WNBA slam” I have not been making a point of keeping up with what you kick around with other readers. If he can make that call, he can call Reid (who screwed it up badly) or Webb (who was not a sure thing at all) or maybe it is all eleventy dimensional stuff and he has runners taking hand messages back and forth for him. Beats me. Good night!
celticdragonchick
@Mnemosyne:
Nice deliberate misreading of my comment.
celticdragonchick
@Mnemosyne:
Nice deliberate misreading of my comment.
Bill H.
@Lurker:
If you can afford to pay for it. In civilized countries, ability to pay is not a criteria.
Mnemosyne
@celticdragonchick:
When people say “I try to be more careful,” the subtext is always, “unlike you.”
Calming Influence
@Martin:
Amen.
It’s just fucking miserable that the momentum of 2008 appears to have been squandered. I am extremely lucky that I have a good job, a home with a mortgage that’s not upside down, a remarkably intact 401k, and no direct dependents to worry about caring or providing for. I’m a lucky white male, and I could easily say that I have no dog in this fight.
Yet I take the time to vote for the party that might at least try to advocate for those in our country that aren’t as fortunate as I am. If I decide not to vote, statistically it’s the equivalent of voting Republican.
Seriously: how should I feel about those less fortunate than me who choose to sit out an election because of a single issue?
Tyro
@Linda Featheringill:
I’m just trying to explain the possible reasoning. I’m not arguing in favor of it!
Calming Influence
@Gravenstone:
I VOTED, you fucking pinhead. Read it again.
Calming Influence
@Calouste:
I VOTED, you utterly clueless pinhead. Read it again.
Yutsano
@burnspbesq:
Wait, WHAT?? Did I miss something on my journey to becoming an ebil gubmint worker?
Lurker
@Bill H.:
Right. Which is why the Affordable Care Act provides subsidies for those who cannot afford to buy insurance. The Affordable Care Act also expands eligibility for Medicaid and lets kids stay on their parents’ insurance plan until age 26.
Calming Influence
Seriously – “Calouste”? “Gravenstone”?
Where the fuck did you two come from?
Allan
@Suffern ACE: Not that it matters, but I’m a hard-core Democrat. I’d never vote Republican myself.
I flagged that comment not only because of the “special interest group” verbiage but the idea of “instant gratification” is completely irrelevant to any discussion of LGBT people, so its inclusion in this particular rant is a smear against us. I’m in my mid-50s, and I’m standing on the shoulders of generations of LGBT people before me who have worked on issues of civil rights and social justice for ourselves, yes, but mostly for others.
I’m frequently amazed at how far we’ve come, and which struggles have been harder and which have been relatively easier. I have a valid marriage license issued by my state! Never thought I’d see that in my lifetime. Of course, right after I got mine they stopped issuing them, and then some people sued to try to invalidate it and failed, but I’ve got it.
I thought ENDA would have been done long ago, especially because similar policies are so common and pervasive in the private sector.
Anyway, I’m rambling, but I’m a hard-core Democrat. I completely understand why specific individuals have given up, especially after they were strongly invested in a particular candidate or issue only to be disappointed yet again. There have been times when I’ve had to walk away from the political process, only to re-engage with it again later.
Yelling at the people who have lost hope is a piss-poor way to channel your frustrations at us for not cheering harder. And the paternalism that suffuses this thread is pretty suffocating at times. If we give these gays the right to vote, some of them will just waste it on the GOP. If those gays want our support, they’d better just keep doing all the shit work on our campaigns and running all the training sessions for community organizers and hope we big important straight men get around to their whiny little problems someday.
Anyway, it’s all based on some numbers from Aravosis’ shitty blog, so whatever.
Calming Influence
@Allan:
O.K., let’s just call it a human rights group advocating a single issue.
1. Republicans are never going to be on your side.
2. Other human rights groups advocating a different single issue are going to be pissed if you abandon them because your issue didn’t move forward.
fraught
Odd how something as worthless as Americablog can inspire 212 comments here when he rarely gets more than 20 on any of his own posts.
Mnemosyne
@Allan:
I have to admit, I really don’t understand how having a DADT repeal bill pass the House and get stuck in the Senate counts as completely ignoring the issue and telling you that the problem will be taken care of “someday.”
You know what? If people had mobilized and gotten a 60+ majority for Democrats in the Senate, “someday” would have been within the next 8 weeks. But because people chose to sit the election out and close down the gayTM, now there’s next to no chance it will pass this year, and close to a zero chance it will be brought up again before 2012. The “someday” that was within your grasp has now been pushed further away, and it’s not because of Obama and the Democrats.
That’s what’s driving me nuts: we were two feet from the finish line and you shot yourself in the foot. And now you’re complaining because we’re pointing out that you were within inches of winning the race until you decided to handicap yourself.
Allan
@Mnemosyne: You seem really upset, so I’ll assume all those “yous” are not directed at me personally for my crimes of voting straight Democratic ticket since Jimmy Carter.
This was a midterm election. A slight erosion in turnout and support from LGBT voters did not cause the Democrats to lose the House. One hundred percent turnout by gays for Democrats would not have saved the House. You do realize that we gays tend to be somewhat concentrated in Congressional districts that are reliably blue and places that were insulated from the reversion to typical midterm voting turnout, which is whiter, older and more conservative?
I’m still looking for evidence of any massive gay betrayal of the Democratic Party.
Martin
@Allan: Ok, I’m going to try and redeem some of my douchebagginess above. I don’t like to give into that sort of thing, but we’re all human, you know.
I didn’t mean to lay all of the problems with Democrats on celticdragonchick, and for that I truly am sorry. But you hint toward one of the most basic problems I have with Democrats:
Yes, there are lots of causes and people should find ones that are meaningful to them. But Democrats have a tendency to promote those causes to the exclusion of other progressive causes.
Ok, Obama and Dems didn’t go far enough on DADT. But it’s not like the work on the economy, on jobs, on health care, on getting us out of Iraq, on women’s labor rights, on reducing the cost of student loans – all of these myriad of things, it’s not like they don’t also help the gay community. I’m not saying that they’re in any way a substitute for the rights that LGBT deserve, but to dismiss all of those things as not mattering at all is shit, as it is to dismiss the variety of problems that needed to be solved.
Ultimately this keeps coming down to a recurring problem of blaming your protector. Democrats aren’t the ones fighting to keep DADT in place, but they’re taking all the blame for it. The Dems didn’t filibuster the DADT vote – the GOP did. And even the Mainers didn’t break the filibuster. I wonder if Jackie Kennedy blamed the Secret Service more than Oswald because the Service agents were responsible to prevent Jacks assassination but failed to do so?
Democrats aren’t the enemy on this fight, yet the gay community seem to insist on making them the enemy. 46 years after Democrats made a difficult vote, they’re still paying for it, and that looks like it’ll go on another generation yet. They keep making those difficult votes and they keep paying for it. The GOP must love this shit, watching the Dems get blamed no matter what they do and walking away with elections by quite literally doing nothing at all.
Mnemosyne
@Allan:
I’m sorry, but you cannot simultaneously claim that the election was lost because GLBT people refused to donate to or work for the candidates and claim that your support would have been inconsequential anyway so the loss can’t possibly be your fault.
Which is it? Either GLBT voters are such a small percentage that they couldn’t have swayed the election either way (in which case their lack of support didn’t affect the election one way or the other) or they’re a sufficiently large block that their lack of support for the Democrats swung the election to the Republicans. The claims so far have been that GLBT voters are a large enough block that they contributed to the Democratic loss, and if that’s the case, then I have to point out that you shot yourselves in the foot. If GLBT voters are too small of a block to affect the outcome, then you should probably stop talking about how your issues are so vital that Democrats lost because they didn’t support them enough.
ETA: And I’m realizing that in this case, the generic “you” probably means “celticdragonchick, joe beese and oscar leroy,” but they’re not here right now, so it’s getting directed at, well, you.
Martin
@Allan: I don’t think there’s anyone claiming that the LGBT vote cost anyone an election – though there are quite a few races still undecided by <1%.
But one of the problems of having a big tent is that you need all of these 2%-10% demographics to turn out, because that's all you really have. The LGBT community needs to be there in 2012. So does the Latino community, the black community, the Native American community, the Muslims, atheists, environmentalists – all of these groups that all have individual irons in this fire. Nobody will get everything they want. Everybody will get something, and a lot of things will apply to everyone. If everyone takes their ball and goes home because they didn’t get everything, then nobody is going to show up.
We saw some of that in 2008 when the PUMAs walked away. But that’s mostly all the Democrats lost thanks to Palin. But prior to 2008, that was a regular story. There’s a valid concern that if 1/3 of the LGBT community walk, even though it might only be a few percent, that when you add in the other communities adopting the same attitude, you’re going to have President DeMint in 2012. And then everyone is going to lose, simply because not everyone got everything they wanted.
Allan
@Mnemosyne: Again, I don’t recognize the vast majority of the attitudes, statements or opinions you attribute to this “you” person, so I’ll thank you to show me where I said that the LGBT community is a vast electoral juggernaut.
You do understand that celticdragonchick and I are not the same person, nor do we agree about everything?
ETA: I see you have acknowledged that yes, you do get that last part.
Allan
@Martin: Perhaps it’s a good thing that the liberal/progressive community has to worry a bit about whether they can depend on any particular constituency to just turn out, or whether their continued support must be earned and cultivated?
Odie Hugh Manatee
This whole thing is pretty sad to watch. Democrats are pushing the bus labeled “Gay rights” up the steep hill and the Republicans are pushing back on the bus, doing everything they can to trip up the Democrats. While this is going on, the activists are screaming and yelling at the Dems that they aren’t pushing hard enough and to push harder! Asked to help push the bus up the hill, the activists say that they won’t be much help until the bus reaches the top of the hill.
When the Repubs succeed in their task to get the bus rolling back down the hill, running over the Dems and their supporters, the activists all yell and scream about how they were the ones thrown under it.
Sad.
Mnemosyne
@Allan:
So — just checking — you’re saying that LGBT voters are such a small percentage of the electorate that they had absolutely no effect one way or the other on this election and their opinion didn’t matter?
I really wish you would spread the word on places like Americablog, because right now they’re doing a victory dance that they totally showed the Democrats who was boss this year. Which is, you know, the topic of the post and the link that John provided.
Mnemosyne
@Allan:
Apparently getting the laws passed that that particular constituency demanded (like the Matthew Shepard law) wasn’t enough to cultivate them, and they vocally withdrew their support at a crucial moment when they were about to win a major victory with DADT, so what kind of “cultivation” are you picturing would be necessary here to make that constituency vote in its own self-interest?
Allan
@Mnemosyne: You’re really hostile, aren’t you?
The initial comment I made to this thread (and yes, if you want to continue to have a civilized conversation on the topic, you owe me a review of the thread to see what I actually wrote. I’ll wait here… OK, let’s continue) was that we gays didn’t lose the House for the Dems, which caused John to thrust out his chin and insist that yes they did, if you retroactively include young people and a bunch of other groups in there too.
That whole part of yours about how our opinions aren’t important and shouldn’t matter is just stone cold nasty. Go to bed.
Martin
@Allan: No, the party shouldn’t have to worry. Primary them if they aren’t doing it. It’ll have the same effect, but when the election rolls around, you need to go all-in against the group that is presenting the real threat.
You act as though a vote not cast is a protest and not a surrender to a vote cast for the GOP. 61% of voters turned out in 2008. 41% turned out this week. Voters didn’t turn on Dems, they just didn’t show up. This is what those protests of not voting or not doing GOTV or not giving to candidates looks like – a 60+ seat gain by the GOP.
Allan
@Odie Hugh Manatee: Except for the relative placement of the gays and the Democrats, your story is an accurate one.
Allan
@Mnemosyne: What percentage of gay people have to vote Democratic before you will stop hating all of us? If we can get it to a reliable 80%, will you stop blaming us? I’d really like to know how heavy the lift is before I bother.
Mnemosyne
@Allan:
Yes, I am hostile, because I’m really tired of being called a bigot and a homophobe online because I think that DADT needs to be repealed by Congress. I want the same thing that activists like John Aravosis do, but apparently because I want it done right so it can’t possibly come back to haunt any future LGBT people who might want to join the armed forces, I’m exactly the same as the people who sponsored Prop 8.
I will keep fighting for your civil rights because I never expected to get a cookie for it anyway, but it’s exhausting to constantly be told that it’s homophobic for me to criticize the strategy of online LBGT activists when we all want the same thing.
That’s not what I said (and I’m pretty sure that’s not what Odie said, either). What I said was that I feel like gay rights activists are working against their own interests and I find it extremely frustrating to watch, especially when places like Americablog start bragging about how awesome it was when they shot themselves in the foot and derailed the effort to repeal DADT.
At this point, I feel like I’m trying to do an intervention for an alcoholic friend only to see him chug a bottle of vodka in front of me just to prove I’m not the boss of him.
Allan
@Calming Influence: By the way, did you know that a majority of delegates to the 2008 Republican convention supported either same-sex marriage or civil unions?
I point this out to highlight the huge gap between the party elite and the footsoldiers of the Evangeliban.
It’s actually part of what makes them even more evil, because their leadership doesn’t believe the homophobia they’re selling.
Mnemosyne
@Allan:
I don’t hate you. That’s the saddest part. I hate that gay activists are hurting their own cause with incredibly bad strategy and they won’t listen to anyone who tells them otherwise. I hate that Americablog and other online activists think that what happened on Tuesday was some kind of victory for them even though it’s going to hurt them — and all of us — for the next two years at least. And I hate that you take it personally and think I’m attacking you when I’m attacking bad strategy.
Allan
@Mnemosyne: If it makes you feel better, I too believe that DADT must be repealed by Congress. You can now tell everyone who calls you a homophobe and a bigot that there’s a gay guy who agrees with you.
That was the part I was calling stone cold nasty. Putting words in my mouth is a weaselly lawyer kind of thing, but putting those words in my mouth is extra bad.
Allan
I’ll let them know at our next meeting.
Mnemosyne
@Allan:
As I said, it felt like you were trying to have it both ways by simultaneously claiming that the Democrats lost because LGBT voters stayed home and that LGBT voters couldn’t possibly have any share of the blame for the defeat because there are too few of them. It’s an online game I’ve seen far too many times (“this victory is all ours! until it goes horribly wrong, in which case we had no influence on the result!”) If that was not the direction you were going, then I apologize.
Mnemosyne
@Allan:
That would be nice. :-)
I know there are a lot of internecine struggles between the HRC and online activists about strategy and a lot of bad blood but Jesus it’s sad to watch the swaths of scorched earth getting bigger and bigger when we all want the same damn thing.
Allan
@Mnemosyne: Good thought on which to end the conversation for now. But I will point out to you that you’re a pretty polished practitioner of scorched earth argumentation yourself.
Mnemosyne
@Allan:
See, and we were just starting to work things out.
ETA: It does work sometimes, and I occasionally manage to use the scorched earth style to hold a mirror up to someone else’s scorched earth pronouncements and make them see what they’re doing. But I tend to butt heads with people who like to butt heads anyway (like CDC) so it doesn’t always work.
Suffern ACE
@Allan: Do you think Aravosis believes what he is selling? Seriously, isn’t there some cynicism of the constant focus on the setbacks as motivators, such that even minor steps forward are treated as huge insults? If he were Glenn Beck and had a wider forum, or his audience were old people, we’d call out his crap immediately and wouldn’t call it “activism.”
Tattoosydney
@chaseyourtail:
Um. I don’t disagree with the thrust of your comment, but would note that it has an inherent assumption that we gays all act in concert – just cause some dumbasses decided to vote Republican, possibly because they didn’t get what they wanted from Obama immediately, doesn’t mean that there aren’t millions of gay people out there who voted Democrat, even if they had to hold their nose while they did it.
Generalisations is dangerous.
Allan
@Suffern ACE: This post linked me to Americablog for the first time in I don’t know how long. In order to answer your questions, I would have to start caring enough about what Aravosis thinks to read his stuff in the first place.
What you describe about how you perceive his modus operandi seems consistent with lots of leading voices in Leftblogistan. Relentlessly hammering away on the process steps for reform, and arguments and recriminations all along the way about choices and compromises, can leave people exhausted and disappointed with the results, as with health care reform.
Some of the process steps are especially hard to watch, like the appeals of favorable court rulings, or seeing Congress take a vote you expect to lose, like the DADT vote this fall.
I have friends who have been on tenterhooks to marry here in CA who were plugged into the unfolding minute-by-minute when Prop 8 was declared unconstitutional. Would the counties start issuing licenses? Would there be a stay? They made preparations, booked appointments with the county for a license, etc., only for it all to be postponed pending appeal.
This is why some individuals drop out along the way. They get worn out, or cynical, or conclude they’re just being used. Salmon swim upstream too; but they don’t do it all their lives, only at the end on their way to spawn and die.
Lee from NC
Sorry, I haven’t read all the comments. There’s way too many at this point. But what I do get tired of here at BJ is the pretty regular post from John on why the gays are stupid. So support dropped from gays-I think it’s pretty easy to understand why. But support dropped across the board. Blacks didn’t turn out in the same numbers as 2 years ago. Neither did younger people. Hispanic support dropped as well. Why not a post bashing them for being stupid?
Mary
@Allan:
God bless you for making this most excellent point.
Mary
@Mary: shit….I fucked up the formatting on my last post. The second paragraph was also quoted from Allan.
Calming Influence
@Allan:
All the more reason to recognize that those who attempt to justify or rationalize why a person or group would choose not to vote in this election is unbelievably irritating to those who took the trouble to engage in the process.
People that don’t vote need to shut the fuck up.
August J. Pollak
Man, a bunch of Democrats blaming a single gay person for all the world’s problems is actually a LOT more annoying that the entire Republican party blaming all gays for them.
Calming Influence
@August J. Pollak:
Man, a bunch of
Democratsvoters blaminga single gay persona bunch of non-voters forall the world’s problemshanding Republicans the House is actually a LOTmoreless annoying that the entire Republican party blaming all gays for them.Fixed.
Allan
@August J. Pollak: This.
I don’t really mind the people who are dedicated to exterminating every last homosexual from the planet. I know where they’re coming from and how to respond.
It’s the well-meaning friends who know better than we do what we should do, and when, and how we should act and behave in order to be worthy of their support, that wear me down and cause me to sometimes withdraw from the fight.
Allan
@Calming Influence: So your strategy to fix this problem is to get really mad at the people who didn’t vote? Plan to hector them until they give up and vote, and vote in the way you demand? Good luck with that.
MBunge
@celticdragonchick: My schoolwork always puts me on edge.
Just for future reference, everyone should remember the above statement whenever celticdragonchick says anything about anything. Think about what it means for her as a person, her outlook, her social circle and her experiences in life.
I think it’ll make her crap a lot less irritating.
Mike
Calming Influence
@Allan:
Yeah Allen, that’s exactly what I said. When I read that, I could here my own voice in my head. You’re amazing.
But I think you’re still missing my point, so let me rephrase it: if you don’t vote, for any reason, I have less respect for you than I have for a thoroughly confused teabagger who votes against his own interests. At least he has some understanding of how a democracy works.
Was that too subtle? Try this: there’s simply no valid excuse for not voting, and people who use spite or anger or disappointment to justify sitting out the process really need to shut the fuck up.
I don’t demand or even care that you vote for who I want; if turnout was 100% instead of 40%, Democrats would have a huge advantage. It’s why Republicans try so hard to keep people from the polls, and the non-voters really helped them out this time.
Allan
@Calming Influence: I actually understand your point really well. You did read the part above where I mentioned I have voted a straight Democratic ticket in every election since 1976, right?
My comment was to point out that so far you have proposed nothing to turn non-voters into voters, you have simply heaped disdain upon them.
Since you have decided they are unworthy of your respect, they’re probably not going to be receptive to any direction you give them.
But if you’ve concluded non-voters are jerks and decided that actually getting them to vote is someone else’s problem and you’re just here to piss on them, then you’ve succeeded.
Paula
@celticdragonchick:
I think the point of the bill was to remove some of the restrictions by which the feds can get involved in a possible hate crime investigation.
http://www.wbez.org/episode-segments/significance-matthew-shepard-act
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/06/opinion/06wed3.html
celticdragonchick
@MBunge:
Well, that wasn’t at all patronizing.
Thanks, I guess.
Palooza
@Allan: Apparently main left leaning special interest groups are interested in the Democratic party only if their instant gratification is satisfied. If not, they take their ball stupidly setting back not only their own narrow interests, but the broader interests of the party. I fully support civil rights and have and will continue to fight for gay equality. However of the LGBT community decides to fuck my efforts over, they shouldn’t expect my active support. It is a two way street, and if the LGBT community (or any narrow special interest) doesn’t have the patience to work it out, and decides that sabotaging broader efforts is the way to go, then fuck ’em. Choices have consequences.
MBunge
@celticdragonchick: Well, that wasn’t at all patronizing.
Patronizing is only a bad thing if the person involved doesn’t deserve to be spoken to or treated in a condescending manner. When it comes to you, I think I’m pretty much in the clear.
Mike
Allan
@Palooza: I gave you the benefit of the doubt the first time, but since you are ignoring the simple fact that the LGBT community has not abandoned the Democratic Party, just wavered somewhat over time in the degree of their support, and repeating the blood libel about “instant gratification” I took the time to refute, I suspect your support for our community is contingent on the degree to which we can be depended on to provide money and votes for the causes that are important to you.
It is indeed a two way street.
celticdragonchick
@MBunge:
Then I needn’t waste time with a sneering ass like you.
Sure you aren’t a Republican?
Palooza
@Allan: I see a blogpost that John Cole is linking to wherein the author appears proud of the fact that turnout by the LGBT community was down, and down in ways they believe may have impacted the races negatively for the Democrats. You can call it “waivering” if you want, but the people on that site at least appear to believe it made a difference in this election.
Second, I have no idea what your beef with instant gratification is. As I used it, I was simply referring to many special interest groups in the Democratic party getting pissed because they did not have their problem solved in the very short 2 year timeframe that we just went through. What ever “blood libel” you feel happened is completely 100% on your end only.
Last, and this is the problem with narrow interest groups, you cannot conceive that I could support various narrow interests independent of the money they bring to the Democratic party. I, in fact, do support LGBT rights completely independent of contributions. The problem is, however, that it appears that many only support the Democratic party (see the blogpost John cited to) if their narrow interest is fully addressed. Again, it is quite simple: this behavior turns allies off quickly, is self-defeating, and ultimately really dumb (and it happens with other narrow interest groups as well — so the criticism is not limited to this context).
Allan
To clarify, Palooza, I see that I spoke more about “instant gratification” here @Allan which was about your comment, but I was responding to another commenter.
MBunge
@celticdragonchick: Then I needn’t waste time with a sneering ass like you.
Now see, that’s the sort of thing I mean. It’s one thing to go on the internet and be an arrogant, preening jackass. Most everybody who’s ever been on the internet has done that. But to be an arrogant, preening jackass and take offense at how people react to that behavior, that’s really infuriating.
BUT…if we all remember that you’re just a kid with a very limited frame of reference and living in a socially insular environment, it’s a lot easy for us to tolerate you.
Mike
Allan
@Palooza:
I see it too. There are a lot of things written and posted on the internet, and even more things added to them by readers as comments. Your argument feels a lot like the FoxNews approach to Daily Kos: find the most inflammatory diaries and/or comments, then attribute those beliefs to the entire progressive community in order to demonize them as a group. The existence of individuals who may be misinformed or misguided about their individual and/or collective electoral clout is interesting, but more useful is what little data we have that shows the LGBT community to be one of the loyal constituencies of the Democratic Party.
You extrapolate from this small sample a conclusion that the gay community is fucking over the liberal alliance, and they shouldn’t expect the support of other members of that alliance as a result.
I said it wavers over time because that’s about all you can conclude from the tiny data set provided. I also offered some personal and anecdotal evidence that INDIVIDUALS within the LGBT community, as in every other community, are all on their own personal lifepaths and have varying amounts of time, energy and money to give at different times and stages in their lives.
My personal GayTM dispensed generously for Obama and the Democrats in 2008 but was out of cash in 2010 due to my employment status. I volunteered when I could in both elections. I was newly unemployed and free to give great swaths of time in 2008 to phone bank and travel to a neighboring state to shore up their GOTV. In 2010, I didn’t have as much time to give due to my efforts to build a clientele for my free-lance writing. Clearly, I caused the Democrats to lose the House, and the liberal community should stop wasting its time caring about LGBT issues.
Of course I can and do conceive that a great number of people who are not personally invested in LGBT rights strongly support our causes as the civil rights issues they truly are. What I said was in specific response to you on the basis of specific things you have written in this thread.
celticdragonchick
@MBunge:
You really are full of fail.
I’m 42. I am married and have a ten year old son with autism. I was a Republican until about the sam time Cole left the pack. I had a career as an aviation technician until I was injured in the aft cargo pit of a 757 and diagnosed with degenerative disc disease. I live on handfulls of pain medication every day, and I limp much of the time. Yah, I have a very bad temper when I have a bad pain day. I am now on full Social Security disability and I am finishing a degree in geology with a minor in US history. I start putting in my applications for grad school next semester. I may try to go into teaching, since disability sucks pretty bad.
What I find most contemptible are idiots like you who can sneer, be flippant and accuse others of how full of shit they are without ever once being able to actually refute what was said.
You have a problem with my interpretation of civil rights history? Show me the damned citation and the published paper. Prove why I am wrong or stfu. Have a problem with why I am pissed with the adminstration? I really couldn’t care less.
You and some of the others here really are no diffrent in kind from the buffoons who believe in a 6000 year old earth. You just have a different set of unthinking assumptions.
celticdragonchick
@Martin:
Don’t sweat it. I’m past being angry at this point and I dislike holding grudges.
MBunge
@celticdragonchick: You really are full of fail.
Wow. You’re 42 years old and THIS is how you behave. Really? That’s just sad. Especially your obstinate refusal to recognize how behavior like yours only empowers the very people who will make the world an even tougher place for folks in your (apparent) situation.
Mike
celticdragonchick
@MBunge:
I react towards others according to how I am treated.
Look above to the comments where some people started calling me out as a nut over my assertions on Brown V Board. The one and only serious attempt to engage me on the subject was given a serious answer. The others resorted to name calling without any sort of thought given to trying to actually trying to refute or disprove my postulation. That is called flippancy, and I have nothing but contempt for it. It shows a lack of serious thought, and an unwilligness to engage seriously with critics.
I don’t waste time and manners on people like that.
So does that make me a snob? I have been accused of that before, and I will live with it. I don’t have a lot of respect for people who pretend to be smarter than they are on subjects they know nothing about. My two subjects are history and geology. If somebody wants to challenge me on either, they need to have their ducks in a row. If somebody wants to yell at me because I don’t clap loud enough for Obama, then they are wasting their time
MBunge
@celticdragonchick: I react towards others according to how I am treated.
Uh, am I conversing with the same 42 year old woman with a degenerative disk disease who cavalierly claimed she inflicted physical violence on another person because of something they said, and defended that as appropriate behavior in general?
Mike
SlyFox
I have to wonder if blacks supported Strom Thurmond in 1948, would the military have been desegregated? How about supporting Richard Nixon instead of JFK, or Barry Goldwater instead of LBJ. You know, do what you want. I don’t even care anymore.
celticdragonchick
@MBunge:
Before I transitioned, I was an army helicopter crewchief and a doorgunner.
I worked for a survey crew for a year before landing a job with a commercial aviation repair staion.
The guy running the “gun” (the laser range finder) made some nasty remarks about my family as a “joke”.
Like I said, I had been a door gunner.
I went down the line to where he was. The guy was really still a kid just out of high school. He was a football player named Herbie and he was pretty damned big. I absolutely would not want to get in an altercation with him in a normal circumstance, and I have always disliked fights…but he crossed a line.
I told him to shut the fuck up with any bullshit about my mom and sister. He gave me a look and told me to go back down the line to my station. Before either one of us knew what happened, I had grabbed him by the front of his shirt and picked him completely off his feet. I was actually holding him off the ground with his face in my face. His eyes were comically wide. I told him if he ever said anything about my family again, we would finish it. I threw him down on the ground and went back down line. Herbie didn’t say another thing to me the rest of the day.
The party chief was actually laughing about it, but he had to report the incidnt since I had assaulted Herbie. Nothing came of it, and we were all back at work as normal the next day. Herbie wised up and didn’t make stupid remarks and we actually got along after that.
Yeah, I still have left over male attitudes on some things. It happens. I also get accused of being prissy when I chatter about my china dish collection.
MBunge
Here’s the thing. I don’t personally think there’s much wrong with that reaction in that situation, but that’s not the same thing as advocating such a reaction as appropriate in a general sense, which is what you did.
To get back the actual point of contention, no one is entitled to act like an asshole. I say that as someone who has been a huge ass one more than one occassion, but I can also say that when I’ve dished out shit, I’ve hardly ever gotten pissy over it being dished back. Don’t pretend you come into these threads as the voice of reason and are only responding to the insults and provocations of others. You’re as arrogant, dismissive and disagreeable as anybody else who posts here.
Mike
celticdragonchick
@MBunge:
That’s a relief.