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You are here: Home / Past Elections / Election 2010 / Wisdom From the Man On the Street

Wisdom From the Man On the Street

by John Cole|  November 4, 20102:08 pm| 52 Comments

This post is in: Election 2010

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This was emailed to me, and man, you gotta admit this makes a helluva lot more sense than 90% of the BS you hear from the pundit class:

But if we’d gone to an actual party, then we would’ve missed a special lesson from a Murray supporter named Buddy Foley, 65, a pianist and handler-wrangler who won’t say what he handles or wrangles (besides the Stella Artois in his hand).

“Let me tell you how America works,” says Foley, who wears a plaid shirt, a mallard-print tie and a woodpecker feather in his fedora. “You have Democrats voting for Democrats and Republicans voting for Republicans and then you have these people down the middle who are — ” he lowers his voice ” — undereducated, and are trying to make a living and do the best for their children, but they’re so busy that they realize two weeks before an election that, ‘Gee, I better start watching TV to get some news,’ and by then the richest [expletives] in America have shoved their [expletiving] money into attack ads and that’s what this middle group of people sees, and they vote accordingly and they’re the ones who steer the country.”

I think that man might be on to something.

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Reader Interactions

52Comments

  1. 1.

    lamh31

    November 4, 2010 at 2:11 pm

    It’s gonna be a long fuckin’ 2 years!!!

    The latest RW meme: Obama’s trip to India will cost $200 mill a day!!!

    Ah but wait a minute:
    Obama’s India trip — not as expensive as you may have heard

  2. 2.

    david mizner

    November 4, 2010 at 2:13 pm

    In fact, Obama lost “the middle” many months ago.

  3. 3.

    BGinCHI

    November 4, 2010 at 2:15 pm

    Almost sounded like Blaze Foley there for a minute, until you mentioned the Stella.

    I don’t think that would have been strong enough….

    (John, any chance you’re at the ARC national meeting?)

  4. 4.

    brantl

    November 4, 2010 at 2:17 pm

    And this didn’t occur to you?

    And the fact that the fairness doctrine went away, so that the head-to-head-comparisons-of-people-in-politics biting the dust was coincident with all of the fear-mongering-and-blowing-smoke-up-peoples-asses started at the same time? That just blew by you?

    Uninformed people are stampedable, because they most resemble sheep, or cows (although cows are smarter, and harder to stampede).

    The biggest thing that the Democrats need to do, is start educating people on the essentials of government. Teach people what ‘cloture’ in the US Senate means, and how it works, for starters. there is the place that the Republicans never had to take their full share of blame.

  5. 5.

    Cris

    November 4, 2010 at 2:17 pm

    best redaction of the day: “[expletiving]”

  6. 6.

    WyldPirate

    November 4, 2010 at 2:19 pm

    This is the reason for much of my cynicism.

    Well, that and the fact that Dems seem to want to play nice, knuckle under and be the Rethugs “battered bitch”.

    There is a need to start calling the Rethugs what they are–criminals, obstructionist, aiders and abettors of fraud and chronic liars who damage the country. And this is just the start of the list.

    Too late now. Nothing will get done. There is no incentive for compromise by the Rethugs. Obama and Dems will just to avoid not having anything get done.

  7. 7.

    Eric k

    November 4, 2010 at 2:20 pm

    Yep,

    TPM had a link a while ago to a study that showed that in general Independants were the least knowledgeable about issues

  8. 8.

    Jewish Steel

    November 4, 2010 at 2:26 pm

    Yes, and I’m pretty sure this is why folks on our side want instant run off.

  9. 9.

    WyldPirate

    November 4, 2010 at 2:29 pm

    @brantl:

    The biggest thing that the Democrats need to do, is start educating people on the essentials of government. Teach people what ‘cloture’ in the US Senate means, and how it works, for starters. there is the place that the Republicans never had to take their full share of blame.

    Can’t have librul union teachers telling our kids about something that’s not in the COnstitution, dammit.

    Besides, we had to layoff the civics and government teachers, doncha’ know. We needed to keep the football program goin’ and they needed an extra coach and new uniforms. New coach can’t teach. He doesn’t have time for that shit–we have to win championships!

    USA! USA! We’re #1—in something…for now.

  10. 10.

    monkeyboy

    November 4, 2010 at 2:29 pm

    @Eric k:

    TPM had a link a while ago to a study that showed that in general Independants were the least knowledgeable about issues

    I recall a bunch of those studies from several years back. I think they were more about undecideds than independents – people were undecided not because they were intelligently weighing the pros and cons but because they knew very little. Independents may overlap a good bit with the undecideds but they also contain a fair portion of “both parties and all government are corrupt” thinking which can be equally uninformed

  11. 11.

    Lolis

    November 4, 2010 at 2:35 pm

    @david mizner:

    Yeah, and that is why Democrats lost the House. It has nothing to do with progressives or him not being liberal enough. I also agree with Krugman, it has nothing to do with the “process.” It is because of the economy. As soon as we all acknowledge this, all this pointless blaming and banter ends.

  12. 12.

    suzanne

    November 4, 2010 at 2:35 pm

    Sigh. He’s absolutely right.

    Now, if he could just share his Stella with me, I’d be completely satisfied.

  13. 13.

    General Stuck

    November 4, 2010 at 2:37 pm

    I once was apathetic to politics, until near election time. But that was when there were responsible republicans in a responsible republican party. But after the 90’s and that insane winger shithouse theater over Clinton, And after the robbery, murder and mayhem of 8 long Bush/Cheney bloodthirsty years, it is beyond me that folks don’t pay attention, and too many don’t bother to vote. I think that guy is correct, up to a point, but there are far more malignant goings on with the right wing today, and also in the general public, even past Bush.

    There is downright evil in the airs, rushing up from a dark past to greet us, while we conveniently forget about torture engaged in the recent past, among other felonious pursuits of the last administration. And all for worry about money. And voting behavior, utterly devoid of common sense, where not even memories of the recent past could break through that fear and loathing, and thoroughly fact free campaigning the wingers engaged in, with nary a hint of any recently unfailed ideas to govern with. There is cause for great pessimism for our future.

    edit- but of course, let’s join in the soul crushing simplicity that it is because Obama didn’t create enough enthusiasm for democrats to bother to vote in larger numbers.. jeebus

  14. 14.

    Belafon (formerly anonevent)

    November 4, 2010 at 2:39 pm

    So, how do we counter Citizens United, since even if the Dems were to propose and actually get the process going on an amendment, it would take more than two years to finish? How do we make ads to counter the business ones – like pointing out that it’s hilarious that the Chinese would be pointing out the flaws of too much government?

  15. 15.

    rdalin

    November 4, 2010 at 2:40 pm

    Here’s why I’m not despairing about the election:

    a. the republicans really blew it with the senate. The economy is improving and they wont be able to scare people as easily as they did for this election, so I really think this was their big shot at retaking congress.

    b. the democrats managed to pass a ton of good legislation, some of it really good, that will be easy to defend, and the last thing people want to see is more debates about health care, and they especially dont want to see the republicans shut down the government. Expect the republicans to overreach spectacularly.

    c. Obama received a wake up call loud and clear, and he’s being underrated.

    d. America loves a comeback story and they love an underdog.

  16. 16.

    geg6

    November 4, 2010 at 2:40 pm

    @monkeyboy:

    I think they were more about undecideds than independents – people were undecided not because they were intelligently weighing the pros and cons but because they knew very little. Independents may overlap a good bit with the undecideds but they also contain a fair portion of “both parties and all government are corrupt” thinking which can be equally uninformed

    You do realize that there is absolutely no difference between those two things? Either way it’s people who are too stupid or too lazy to even suss out reality or a fact?

    In any case, I have yet to meet an undecided or an “independent” who isn’t completely uninformed, if not misinformed.

  17. 17.

    gbear

    November 4, 2010 at 2:40 pm

    I ran into a couple of those people a work this morning. I walked up to the register to pay for my donut and one of them asks me ‘Is Mark Dayton the Republican?’ This is a person who works in a government office building. Heaven knows who she actually voted for.

  18. 18.

    Corner Stone

    November 4, 2010 at 2:43 pm

    @lamh31: If you think that article rebuts anything the RW meme is screeching about the cost then I have a bridge somewhere to sell you.
    I had a talk with a winger friend of mine last night and he said at least 5 times something about the “$2 Billion trip to India”. At least 5 times. And when I told him I didn’t care what it cost or what did he expect the President to do? He said, “he shouldn’t be taking a vacation on taxpayer dollars!”
    This article is the kind of weak ass flim flammery D’s try to use and they get stomped with it.

    ETA – just for shiggles I sent the article to him with a couple excerpts quoted. I have no doubt how he will respond.

  19. 19.

    p.a.

    November 4, 2010 at 2:44 pm

    That quote may be ‘Lexicon’ worthy! File under ‘American Elections’, or ‘American Electorate’, or ‘How Things Work’, or ‘What to Say to Make the Davids Broder and Brooks Cry’.

  20. 20.

    priscianus jr

    November 4, 2010 at 2:44 pm

    I am a Democrat not because I toe the party line in all things — I really don’t. I’m a very independent thinker. Nor is it the case that I never agree with anything any Republican ever says. But somehow I always wind up voting for the Democrat, because when confronted with a choice, there are a lot more things I agree with the Democrat about. Especially basic assumptions. Not only that, when I vote for an individual, I never approach it as if I am just voting for an individual, but for a change in the whole balance of power in the government. For the sake of argument, maybe I would rather have a beer with the Green Party candidate than with the Democrat. But not if it might help the Dem lose a presidential election, which is arguably what happened in Florida in the year 2000.
    Consequently, I have never understood “independents” — because the choice is usually so stark. You hear about independents, you get the impression that these are people who approach elections with a totally open mind, like starting from zero every time, really pondering every detail, weighing the issues. On the one hand, this; on the other hand, that. Maybe they try to start off kind of like Descartes –from the assumption of absolute skepticism, what do I really know with certainty, and the only thing I know is “I think therefore I am.” Which is totally fictional, because none of us can help but start off knowing a lot more than that. None of that makes any sense to me.

    So yes, I think this guy is on to something. It’s a lot easier to understand if we assume that most independents are simply ignorant, haven’t got brain one about politics, how our government works, the nature of political advertising, or how the election would affect things. Because in most cases, it’s really not that complicated for anyone to figure out which one is better for them, whether I would agree with them or not. Yes, I know people are busy. I’m busy too. It’s no excuse for being ignorant about things that will affect you, your family, your community and your country.

  21. 21.

    dmsilev

    November 4, 2010 at 2:45 pm

    By the way, I think we’ve found the first administration “scandal” for the GOP to “investigate”. Did you know that Obama’s upcoming trip to India will cost 200 million dollars a day and require three thousand people and nearly 900 rooms in a 5-star hotel? Michelle Bachmann knows that it will.

    (That’s roughly 5% more money per day than the entire Afghanistan war. It’s also $66K per day per person, or over $200K per day per hotel room. But hey, who’s counting?)

    dms

  22. 22.

    MikeJ

    November 4, 2010 at 2:45 pm

    @geg6:

    I have yet to meet an undecided or an “independent” who isn’t completely uninformed, if not misinformed.

    Many of them believe they are better informed than most.

    The two things are not unrelated.

    Yeah, it was worth having a really stupid winger oped to get that turn of phrase to abuse.

  23. 23.

    Paula

    November 4, 2010 at 2:46 pm

    No shit.

    You got firebaggers in here STILL claiming that Dems lost because Obama wasn’t liberal enough.

    Some people tell them it’s about a continuing bad economy and low-information voters and about how 2008’s wave of Dems wasn’t really about a “progressive” mandate and that there’s a strong center-right POV in the media and among the reliable base of voters who show up for midterms.

    No no no: it’s always about Obama not listening to the “progressive” “base” about the stimulus and the public option and nationalizing the banks.

    Nothing but shut-ins using their momma’s broadband.

  24. 24.

    Corner Stone

    November 4, 2010 at 2:50 pm

    @priscianus jr: IMO what we’re really talking about are “undecideds”. Independents are people who are ashamed to admit they are Republicans.

  25. 25.

    Cat Lady

    November 4, 2010 at 2:52 pm

    All this proves is that thanks to Fox and the Republicans facts have become meaningless. There is an infinite number of lies to tell, and now they can be told with unlimited amounts of secret cash. The “undereducated” voters can’t or won’t be bothered to learn the difference, and will rely on their feelings. That’s how our democracy dies.

  26. 26.

    gbear

    November 4, 2010 at 2:53 pm

    @Paula: Not fair! A lot of us shut-ins actually pay for our own broadband.

  27. 27.

    Suffern Ace

    November 4, 2010 at 2:53 pm

    @monkeyboy: They knew very little, but knew enough that they knew that they knew too little to make up their minds and answered accordingly. The undecideds sound quite wise.

  28. 28.

    Poopyman

    November 4, 2010 at 2:54 pm

    @dmsilev: I just spent 10 minutes trying to debunk this with my coworkers. Their counterargument was that nobody’s saying how much it really cost, so how do we know itdoesn’t cost that much?

    This in an office whose business is in national security. I’d say “kill me now”, but at this point I’m afraid of the literalists.

  29. 29.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    November 4, 2010 at 2:54 pm

    @MikeJ:

    Many of them believe they are better informed than most.

    “Independents” are the noble savages of Village Lore. Whenever these people do get around to reading an op-ed, it’s more than likely going to be David Broder (the man on the TeeVee told me he’s non-partisan!) or one of his professional offspring; there, the “independent” voter is told that s/he is Jefferson’s ideal, the true guardian of the small-r republican ideal, et cetera et cetera.

  30. 30.

    priscianus jr

    November 4, 2010 at 2:55 pm

    @rdalin: I’m with you on all 4 points.
    And as long as we’re being positive, you might want to read this:
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mitchell-bard/three-good-things-for-pro_b_778064.html#postComment

  31. 31.

    Paula

    November 4, 2010 at 2:57 pm

    @gbear:

    Well, I’m a shut in, but I can’t get into ten bazillion ‘bagger flamewars a week because I’m too busy with a job by which I, too, pay for my own net access.

  32. 32.

    bemused

    November 4, 2010 at 2:58 pm

    @gbear:
    Sigh. There’s a lot of people like that. The only surprising part is that even not unintelligent people aren’t embarrassed to ask a question like that.
    That’s why we need Keep It Simple for Stupid messaging.

  33. 33.

    harlana

    November 4, 2010 at 3:04 pm

    @Paula: Well, I really don’t want to read this kind of shit when, all along I didn’t feel Obama was progressive enough, but I voted all Dem anyway. Except for, ahem, Alvin Green.

  34. 34.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    November 4, 2010 at 3:04 pm

    @Paula:

    Well, I’m a shut in, but I can’t get into ten bazillion ‘bagger flamewars a week

    Sometimes I start to answer them, but there’s really no point. “Epistemic closure” is an annoying phrase, but it describes a real phenomenon, and I suspect a lot of these people are just as boring, miserable and self-righteous/-absorbed in their non-political, non-internet lives as they are here.

  35. 35.

    cintibud

    November 4, 2010 at 3:05 pm

    Speaking of India, they are cheering the defeat of Ted Strickland in Ohio because of his ban on outsourcing jobs under state contracts…

    http://blog.dispatch.com/dailybriefing/2010/11/stricklands_loss_cause_for_cel.shtml

  36. 36.

    dmsilev

    November 4, 2010 at 3:13 pm

    @Poopyman: Tell them that we’re spending about that much per day in Afghanistan, and ask them whether security for the President costs as much as maintaining several tens of thousands of troops in active combat.

    Probably still won’t get through their thick skulls, but maybe worth a try.

    dms

  37. 37.

    LarsThorwald

    November 4, 2010 at 3:19 pm

    My mother, age 64, is one of those people. She voted for W. Bush twice, Dukakis once, Reagan once, didn’t vote in 1984, and voted for Obama. All over the board, this one. Has no real party affiliation. Probably couldn’t name — like most people — more than one Supreme Court Justice, if that. She is not issue oriented at all, has no passion except for her needlepoint and going on vacation to the Outer Banks once a year. She has a loosey-goosey grasp on even the headlines, never reads the articles, and — I would wager — like most Americans, she votes by sense and feel. “I like him.” “I don’t like him.” She is susceptible like a weather vane to the winds brought by the occasional wrong e-mail she gets from my Uncle (Obama is a socialist, etc.), and by whatever snippets of crap she hears talked about at her office, or catches fleetingly on the news she rarely watches.

    I got her to vote for Obama in 2008. I couldn’t get her to the polls this time. Too busy, and not enough interest. She lives in Virginia Beach, and she complained when she visited us at the end of October about “all the negative ads,” which only discouraged her to vote. No way she ever would research issues or candidates on the internet, because she doesn’t know how to get to the internet. She barely can use a computer, even though she used to sell pharmaceutical software. You tell me.

    People like my mother vote in presidential elections because there is a big election, two candidates to focus on, debates are had, and one can’t help but be bombarded with information about the candidates. But mid-terms? Why bother? The ads are too much, the calls are too much, there are too many condidates to look at, too much learning to be done, and her whole response to it all is to complain about the government and not vote.

    My mother is ignorant when it comes to politics, and when it comes to mid-terms, willfully ignorant. Even if she felt it was her duty to vote (it is, but she doesn’t in those elections), she would be easily swayed by whatever she caught in an ad during CSI: Miami, or whatever nugget she heard in 15 seconds flipping around and pausing momentarily on Fox News. The guy who comes into the office and bitches about taxes would have far more influence on her than any newspaper or news outlet.

    This is your Independent in America.

    My mom’s not a witch. She’s you.

  38. 38.

    Paula

    November 4, 2010 at 3:22 pm

    @harlana:

    Ummm, ok. I didn’t realize it was my job to make anyone on the net feel nice and happy.

  39. 39.

    LarsThorwald

    November 4, 2010 at 3:31 pm

    This is also why I think a great many number of lawyers who do trial work would agree that while voters are stupid, ignorant, and make weird if not wrong decisions, most lawyers to a person agree that the jury system in this country is good because juries generally get it right.

    Now how is it that people you can pluck off the street — almost literally pluck off the street — and put them on a jury can handle (generally correctly) weighing evidence and facts and argument and sift through them and make decisions that are typically sound, and yet those same people are idiots when it comes to the ballot box?

    Because we sequester juries and we make them hash it out, and we make them sit still and listen to the evidence. And when we do that, people usually do the right thing and take their jobs seriously.

    Outside that room, and given the casual voluntariness of the ballot box, they revert to their usual selves.

  40. 40.

    Comrade Sock Puppet of the Great Satan

    November 4, 2010 at 4:16 pm

    On the India trip,

    (1) It’s amazing Bachmann can’t do simple math to work out whether $200 million was plausible.

    (2) Even if it cost $200 million/day, so fucking what? The big question of the 21st Century is going to be how the future superpowers of the world (China & India) relate to each other and the U.S. If a big fucking shindig in India secures a special relationship between us and them for the next decade, it’d be money well spent.

    (3) We’re in for a fuck-load of these pseudo-scandals. With ~$250 billion in stimulus spending, you can be sure that some waste is going to be found by Darrell Issa, even if it’s an office assistant at a regional office at HUD in South Dakota ordering Charmin’ toilet paper for the crapper instead of the generic Safeway brand. Toiletpapergate will last for months.

    (4) I am faintly disturbed at myself because I find Bachmann strangely attractive.
    She reminds me of a particularly dense Conservative woman I knew at college who was interested in me but I wasn’t interested (even though she was attractive and I was desperate for a lay) because….she was conservative. In retrospect, I realise that I should have done the deed anyway. Make love not war etc.

  41. 41.

    daryljfontaine

    November 4, 2010 at 4:27 pm

    @Comrade Sock Puppet of the Great Satan: Or “fuck them before they fuck you.”

    I was going to bat trying to get people to realize just how thinly-sourced the original number was. There was exactly ONE Indian newspaper reporting $200m/day; they quoted an Indian security official, and the security official didn’t even say what their headline said!

    But of course every wingnut shithole from here to Jebus’ Taint, Arkansas was trumpeting the number as the GOSPEL ACCORDING TO RUSH AND SEAN.

    When the fuck did Murdoch buy an Indian newspaper for his empire?

    D

  42. 42.

    monkeyboy

    November 4, 2010 at 4:31 pm

    @geg6:

    You do realize that there is absolutely no difference between those two things? Either way it’s people who are too stupid or too lazy to even suss out reality or a fact?
    __
    In any case, I have yet to meet an undecided or an “independent” who isn’t completely uninformed, if not misinformed.

    I think you are over lumping a real distinction between undecided and independent. Sort of like people who think s0shulism and c0mmun1sm mean the same thing.

    Undecideds generally have little knowledge or opinions. Independents often have very strong opinions even if they are based on little or bogus knowledge. Independents who vote for Nader, Green Party, Libertarians, etc. are usually very opinionated. The more mainstream ‘Independent’ likes to be portrayed as evaluating each candidate not in terms of party (usually D or R) but in terms of position, though this may just a self serving ruse, thinking that ‘non-partisan’ denotes honesty, while it actually hides being uninformed.

  43. 43.

    suzanne

    November 4, 2010 at 4:43 pm

    @Comrade Sock Puppet of the Great Satan:

    She reminds me of a particularly dense Conservative woman I knew at college who was interested in me but I wasn’t interested (even though she was attractive and I was desperate for a lay) because….she was conservative. In retrospect, I realise that I should have done the deed anyway. Make love not war etc.

    No. No.

    I was lamenting about a week ago how an ex of mine has become increasingly libertarian, to the point where he started his own stupid blog. (It’s poorly written, poorly reasoned, and not even funny.) And I feel SO ICKY about it. I banged a libertarian, for fuck’s sake. What if the condom had broken?

    Christ almighty, I get itchy just thinking about it.

  44. 44.

    Eric k

    November 4, 2010 at 4:47 pm

    On a related tangent, Yglesies had a good point about how screwed up a lot of voting is:

    Conservtative Southerners voted for JFK because Abraham Lincoln freed the slaves 100 years earlier:-)

  45. 45.

    D-Chance.

    November 4, 2010 at 5:39 pm

    So, Cole admits that stupid people elected Obama? After all, he carried that down the middle “undereducated” class in ’08.

  46. 46.

    Comrade Sock Puppet of the Great Satan

    November 4, 2010 at 7:25 pm

    “No. No.”

    Actually, in retrospect, I’m not sure I could have, umm, performed. It would have felt….wrong.

    “And I feel SO ICKY about it. I banged a libertarian, for fuck’s sake. What if the condom had broken?”

    Well, all babies and toddlers are natural libertarians, so you’d have a constant reminder of the Dad. But of course you’d get the Compulsory Gay Abortion.

  47. 47.

    piratedan

    November 4, 2010 at 8:13 pm

    @General Stuck

    I often wondered how the last two years would have played out if Obama had put a hardass in as the head of the DOJ and gave them a free hand over checking what had been done in the name of freedom over the last 8 years. I fantasize that the cockroaches would have had to have spent their entire time covering their asses instead of being able to go right into attack mode. Granted that may have slowed down some of what he was able to accomplish during that brief window of complete Dem control, but it would have been fun to watch the media get the scent of blood in the water and there’s nothing that they like more than a scandal and someone prominent being involved.

  48. 48.

    Chris

    November 4, 2010 at 8:25 pm

    “I think that man might be on to something.”

    I would’ve used more than two expletives, but that’s a minor failing, and the analysis is a hell of a fucking lot more insightful than whatever David Broder is shitting onto the Washington Post Kaplan Test Prep Daily op-ed page, and it’s miles beyond whatever tripe David Brooks scoops out of whatever Mitch McConnell is barfing out these days.

  49. 49.

    Church Lady

    November 4, 2010 at 9:31 pm

    As to being “undereducated”, I’m not so sure. Democrats won those without a high school diploma and those with post graduate educations. The Republicans took those with high school and college diplomas. Sounds more like the Dems took the under and over educated and the Repubs took the rest.

  50. 50.

    Phoenix Woman

    November 4, 2010 at 10:10 pm

    @Lolis: And why is the economy so sucky? Because Obama and the Democrats refused to use reconciliation to push through a stimulus plan big enough to do the job. As economists like Krugman and Stiglitz keep saying over and over.

    If instead of wasting over a year on industry-written “health care reform” legislation that was and is massively unpopular, they pushed for a real stimulus package and a real green jobs program, as well as confronting the banks instead of shoveling more dough at them, the Democrats would be sitting pretty now.

  51. 51.

    4jkb4ia

    November 5, 2010 at 1:57 pm

    Thank you, John. I cannot get over the fact that so many of these people voted for nihilism. There is also a good chance that these people did not vote for any policies that would make their lives better. These observations are more aggravated by NYT story that Republicans will not give the SEC and CFTC all the rulemaking-process employees that they wanted and would like to repeal the reconciliation authority. This has been two years of learning absolutely nothing.

  52. 52.

    4jkb4ia

    November 5, 2010 at 2:01 pm

    @Church Lady:
    Also see story that Kirk took the postgraduates, too. That’s what did it for him. Of course Kirk is not as bad a nihilist as some people I could name.

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