Houston we have a hypocrite. I repeat: Houston, we have a hypocrite, over. 
It is amazing to me how oblivious to their own mind-numbing fuckery some people are. Why is it that when confronted with their own prejudices, bigotry, or plain old bad behavior, the first reaction of an asshat (be it a racist, homophobic, misogynistic, or “any combination of the three” asshat), their first instinct is not to examine their own thoughts and behavior and to determine why it is they are fucked in the head, but rather, to get defensive and circle the wagons. “I’m not a racist, but black people are so stupid, mirite?” “I don’t have anything against Muslims, but I really wish they’d stop blowing our shit up with their anchor babiez of terrah.”
These are the same people who preface their bullshit statements with, “With all due respect” or “No offense, but” and then proceed to spout some garbage that makes you want to crush their heads with your thumb and index finger.
A person who starts a sentence with “with all due respect” is essentially saying, “you’re stupid and I hate you.” A person who starts a sentence with, “No offense, but” is about to say something untoward about having relations with your mom: “No offense, but you look like you fell out of the ugly tree and hit every branch on the way down. How come your mom is so hot when she’s naked? Oh whoops! Did I not tell you about that? Well don’t get all mad, I said, ‘no offense!'”
No one ever says, “No offense, but you are the smartest person in the world.” Or “With all due respect, I think everything you just said is stunningly intelligent and I am smarter for having heard it.”
So when I read the latest bigoted bullshit coming out of Montana (which is, as I wrote here, the land of the free and the lynched gays!), my eyes couldn’t help but roll themselves into the far reaches of my brain:
HELENA, Mont. — Alarmed by evidence that gay and lesbian students are common victims of schoolyard bullies, many school districts are bolstering their antiharassment rules with early lessons in tolerance, explaining that some children have “two moms” or will grow up to love members of the same sex.
But such efforts to teach acceptance of homosexuality, which have gained urgency after several well-publicized suicides by gay teenagers, are provoking new culture wars in some communities.
Many educators and rights advocates say that official prohibitions of slurs and taunts are most effective when combined with frank discussions, from kindergarten on, about diverse families and sexuality.
Angry parents and religious critics, while agreeing that schoolyard harassment should be stopped, charge that liberals and gay rights groups are using the antibullying banner to pursue a hidden “homosexual agenda,” implicitly endorsing, for example, same-sex marriage.
Last summer, school officials here in Montana’s capital unveiled new guidelines for teaching about sexuality and tolerance. They proposed teaching first graders that “human beings can love people of the same gender,” and fifth graders that sexual intercourse can involve “vaginal, oral or anal penetration.”1
A local pastor, Rick DeMato, carried his shock straight to the pulpit.
“We do not want the minds of our children to be polluted with the things of a carnal-minded society,” Mr. DeMato, 69, told his flock at Liberty Baptist Church.
In tense community hearings, some parents made familiar arguments that innocent youngsters were not ready for explicit language. Other parents and pastors, along with leaders of the Big Sky Tea Party, saw a darker purpose.
“Anyone who reads this document can see that it promotes acceptance of the homosexual lifestyle,” one mother said at a six-hour school board meeting in late September.
Barely heard was the plea of Harlan Reidmohr, 18, who graduated last spring and said he was relentlessly tormented and slammed against lockers after coming out during his freshman year. Through his years in the Helena schools, he said at another school board meeting, sexual orientation was never once discussed in the classroom, and “I believe this led to a lot of the sexual harassment I faced.”
Last month, the federal Department of Education told schools they were obligated, under civil rights laws, to try to prevent harassment, including that based on sexual orientation and gender identity. But the agency did not address the controversy over more explicit classroom materials in grade schools.2
Some districts, especially in larger cities, have adopted tolerance lessons with minimal dissent. But in suburban districts in California, Illinois and Minnesota, as well as here in Helena, the programs have unleashed fierce opposition.
“Of course we’re all against bullying,” Mr. DeMato, one of numerous pastors who opposed the plan, said in an interview. “But the Bible says very clearly that homosexuality is wrong, and Christians don’t want the schools to teach subjects that are repulsive to their values.”
What the what?!! No. NO!! Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong!!
You cannot teach kids tolerance while at the same time preach that homosexuality is wrong and is repulsive to Christian values. You cannot teach tolerance while at the same time complaining that teaching tolerance promotes acceptance of the subject of the intolerance, which is the reason you have to teach tolerance in the first fucking place! It doesn’t make sense!
Do these people not see that every time they open their mouths, hypocrisy falls out?
“We’re all against racism, but white people don’t want schools to teach equality.”
“We’re all against misogyny, but men don’t want the school to teach respect for women.”
Do the above statements make sense? Of course they don’t. Yet bigots continue to make the argument that I’m not against homosexuality, but it’s a sin ‘cuz the biblez totally says so, you guyzzzzz.
Fuck that.
What should be said:
“We’re all against bullying and as educators and members of the religious community, we will do everything we can to stop it.”
Full stop.
Any person who attempts to cloak their bigotry in religion is a bigoted asshat and should be called out as such every fucking day.
1 Wow, really? We’re teaching fifth graders about anal sex? That’s um… well… weird. Then again, I don’t have kids, so what the hell do I know.
2 When the Teatwits shut down the Department of Education, they can just bully all the ‘mos right out of the state! Get out and stay out!
[image via Slap Upside the Head]
WereBear
Doing that a few million times over formative years is how we get asshats.
So it doesn’t surprise me they are one trick ponies as adults.
Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther
Our grandchildren (please God let it be our grandchildren) will look back on this piece of American history and be horrified.
This and the anti-Muslim shit will be how our grandchildren tell themselves that our country is better than it used to be, “because at least now we know enough not to hate and hound people for who they love or how they worship.”
Please God.
Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther
Back to say: The repulsion thing is the thing that kills me (kills me most I guess. The denial of civil rights is pretty killer, too). I’m not gay, but I can just barely catch a glimpse of what it might be like to grow up knowing that the world finds who you are and how you love not just problematic, but disgusting. And we wonder at the suicide rates!
(Oh and hey, I wrote a little something about it once upon a time! Because it pisses me way the hell off! http://emilylhauserinmyhead.wordpress.com/2009/11/06/not-who-you-love-but-how/ )
MikeJ
I’d have to disagree. While I wouldn’t call myself a christian, and I don’t see any moral problem with homosexuality, I think that it is entirely possible to tell children there there exist things you disapprove of and yet you should still be tolerant of people who are misguided (in your view) and believe in those things.
The very word tolerance implies that this is something you’re putting up with even though you don’t like it. I don’t “tolerate” gays. They exist and I exist and I have no issue whatsoever with it.
I tolerate my neighbor using a leaf blower instead of a rake because even though I would prefer him making less noise, I don’t feel I have the right to stop him.
Linda Featheringill
Fifth graders [10-year-old people]:
These kids know about the mechanics of sexual intercourse. They already know.
The actual insert-part-A-into-part-B is very simple. And only a limited number of variations exist. So the kids have already gathered that information and no amount of self-righteous nonsense from their parents will erase that knowledge.
Actually making love is more complex. And truly loving is very complex, full of contradictions and a bunch of other stuff.
Are the parents in question teaching their children that humans are individuals and not clones? Nah, not so much.
One of the characteristics of pro-fascism is a desire for homogeneity of ideas and actions. Another characteristic of proto-fascism is the sanction of approved scapegoats.
Hmmmm.
JGabriel
Really? People say that to me all the time.
Then they whack me over the head with a heavy blunt object — which, by the way, really kind of hurts. Hmm, maybe they’re actually being sarcastic. It’s kind of hard for me to tell sometimes, what with the head trauma and all… Nah, that couldn’t be it.
.
General Stuck
I once lived in Montana, and love the state. It is a collection of western libertarian type conservatives, religious wingnuts, with a healthy hippy population in various towns and villes.
The religious wingnuts are the loudest, and sometimes get the pol upper hand, but it is a far cry more liberal leaning state, especially the west part, than any of it’s neighbors, say like WY, ID, ND, etc…./ Otherwise, I agree completely with the sentiment and example of this post.
The Bearded Blogger
@MikeJ: You are absolutely right, as far as your personal convictions go. It’s true that people don’t need to personally approve of homosexuality in order to tolerate it. However….
If you teach that, as a god-given fact, homosexuality is wrong (and this is not a matter of personal preference), you cannot pretend to have a policy preventing the bullying of homosexuals. You are, causally, fostering the bullying of homosexuals.
Seriously, you can’t say to kids: “X is wrong and repulsive” and then “but don’t treat X as if it were wrong and repulsive”.
Tsulagi
No offense, but with all due respect pretty certain you can find crazy/asshole pastors, priests, imams, rabbis or other assorted purveyors of sky fairies in every city in the country. Montana ain’t that special.
JGabriel
I’m certainly not agreeing with the overall point of the conservatives, but 10 years old does seem kind of young for that level of biological detail. I mean, once we bring up oral or anal stimulation we’re talking about sex play, not how babies are made. Wouldn’t 7th or 8th grade be more appropriate for that kind of information?
It’s just an initial reaction, and it’s possible I’m completely wrong on that. So don’t flame me, I’m just asking and I’m willing to be persuaded otherwise.
.
Measles Montgomery
With all due respect, I like what you wrote.
Christin
I am too exhausted at this point to yell and scream about Montana. I expect no less from old pastors and old school believe or burn in hell Christians. They hate everyone.
At this time I’m still pissed off at stay at home lazy ass Dems who did not vote but whine and moan why me, Pissed off at progressives who are so pure Jesus can’t compete and just yell louder all the time and get zero results, pissed off at Firebaggers for being what they are, annoyed w/ the youth vote not giving a shit but whining and crying at every turn waaaah! and only caring about their own sorry asses, pissed off at old bigots and racists who try to control our future and only care about themselves and as long as I’m paying for their Medicare and SS that screech gimme back my old white racist country, I’m annoyed at women who drifted to the GOP and are about to get their a wake up call, blah blah blah blah.
This election wiped me out. I canvassed for a guy in another state who lost due to idiots, morans and all of the above. I need a breather. And railing about effed up bigots from some cold ass state where no one really lives is not on my list today or pretty much this year. Good thing you have the energy. To make up for me.
HyperIon
@MikeJ wrote:
But what if you caught your neighbor teaching your son how to use a leaf blower? I think that’s where these idiots are coming from….
The Bearded Blogger
@JGabriel: I hear you, but I think these are things kids already know about at that age, in the way of the “folk legends” kids tell each other. I’m speaking from my own childhood experience, and that was before the internet.
I imagine sex ed teachers nowadays probably get questions about b*k*ke, g*ld*n sh*w*rs and f*rr**s.
Sorry about the asteriscs, want to stay ahead of censorship
MikeJ
@The Bearded Blogger: I agree that it shouldn’t be taught in schools that homosexuality is wrong. I wouldn’t teach that it’s right either, merely that it exists. Parents should teach right and wrong, not schools.
Steeplejack
@Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther:
The grandkids will be hating on people because they’re cyborgs or robots or something. “No offense, but everyone knows that silicon can’t think. Not really.”
The Bearded Blogger
@MikeJ: But do you think schools should teach that it is wrong to mistreat people on the basis of sexual orientation?
If you don’t, I don’t see how you could espouse a policy against bullying on the basis of gender.
MattR
@JGabriel: As part of that answer, I’d like to know what they are currently teaching fifth graders.
Separately, I pretty much subscribe to the Louis CK theory on telling young children about homosexuality – Why should somebody else have to supress who they are because you don’t want to have to talk with your kid?
protected static
@JGabriel: As the parent of a 10-year-old boy, no, it isn’t too much information. First, a lot of them will be squicked-out anyway – all indications so far are that our son is in this first group. Second, those that aren’t squicked-out *need* access to this kind of information. Third, 5th-graders will shortly be 6th-graders at middle school – along with 7th- and 8th-graders… Better that they know as much as possible beforehand.
Trentrunner
Never, never, ever forget that religion is the prime and powerful fuel source for American homophobia.
Just look at the sources of hate in the article.
Without religion-infused politics in this country, homophobia would have been moribund years ago.
Southern Beale
Also:
• “I was a lifelong Democrat until ….”
• “I’m not a racist but ….”
• “Some of my best friends are gay/black/Asian/Hispanic ….”
• “I didn’t like George Bush either but ….”
etc.
kommrade reproductive vigor
Then send your little darlings to a private school, jackass. The state is not here to promote anyone’s religious values.
I swear, I’m going to engrave the 1st Am. on bricks so I can hurl them through the windows of people in need of a reminder.
But I have to say I don’t see why this is so damn hard. To the kids:
Don’t bully people, ever, or we’ll suspend your punk ass and your parents will tear your head off.
The. End.
To the teachers:
Turn a blind eye to bullying, for any reason, and your next stop will be the unemployment line.
The. End.
Why the fuck does there have to be a bunch of hand-wringing over WHY a kid is being bullied? If the teacher sees a kid slamming another kid against a locker, she doesn’t need to launch an investigation into the cause. (Now Johnny, did you do that to Timmy because he’s Jewish or because he’s gay?) She just needs to send the little fucker to the principal’s office.
kommrade reproductive vigor
Thanks. You’ve made me feel all stabby.
asiangrrlMN
Yeah. Too exhausted to work up proper outrage. I would just like to say, it’s my religious belief that anyone who does not explicitly take a stance against bullying should be prodded with a very rusty pitchfork. Oh, and the threesome thing.*
*Hedonism is VERY big on threesomes.
Or to be ruder, I don’t give a flying fuck what your religion tells you is right or wrong, just as you don’t give a flying fuck about my moral values. The difference is that I’m not trying to SHOVE MY BELIEFS down your throat (no, really, I’m not) or take away your rights. **
**Except the right not to ever be offended. That is not a constitutional right.
MattR
@asiangrrlMN: Is your pitchfork three pronged?
gbear
@Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther:
Thank you for trying to imagine that. The feeling that everyone is going to hate and reject you if they know the real you is just devastating when you’re a kid just coming to the realization that you’re one of ‘those’. It’s hard to overcome in even the most accepting environments.
And it still hurts to have to deal with this stuff. There is a special place in hell for the religious conservatives in the Anoka-Hennepin school district that are doing everything they can to kill anti-bullying policy.
asiangrrlMN
@MattR: You bet it is.
@gbear: I know. I almost can’t believe in this day and age…but sadly, I can believe it of Anoka. Fucking Anoka.
greennotGreen
I was a little taken aback by the vaginal/oral/anal TMI for 5th graders, too, but remember that we live in the age of AIDS. Information too late can mean a much-shortened life for a kid. It won’t really mean anything to them till they need the info, and then I *so* want them to have what they need to protect themselves.
beergoggles
@Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther: Our embrace of Irish and Italians is how I tell myself America has gotten better as well.
Jorge
May I add “bless their heart”, a southern euphemism for “I’m about to say or have just said something awful about this fucktard.”
Keith G
@JGabriel: You are right.
Gary Farber
Please forgive me for ignoring your other fine points, but on this?
This simply isn’t true. I’m entirely willing to believe that’s how you feel every time you read those words. But it’s simply not true that that’s how everyone responds, and it isn’t other than idiosyncratic usage; the most that can be claimed is that the phrase is susceptible to many interpretations, yours included.
But claiming that yours is the primary usage seems difficult to support by cite to any objective authority on usage.
This is a technical way of saying that projecting this interpretation onto other people is going to steer you wrong much of the time, absent additional indicators that they do indeed think they’re stupid and hate you.
They don’t say that because it wouldn’t make any sense. But “no offense” and “with all due respect” have very clear meanings; how you decide to interpret what the writer intends beyond those words is up to you, of course.
Fine post, otherwise. But, yes, I get stuck on language issues and assertions.
Hey, no offense intended!DMD
No offense and with all due respect, but you forgot “bless your heart, but….”
asiangrrlMN
@Gary Farber: No one says “No offense” if the person thinks what he/she says is not going to cause offense. If someone does not want to cause offense by a statement one is prefacing with no offense, then maybe that person shouldn’t make the statement. Same with all due respect. There is no reason to say it other than to emphasize how much you are going to disagree with the person you (general you) are addressing.
@JGabriel: I don’t think factual information, the bare bones as it were, would be too much information such as, “A penis can be inserted into a vagina, a mouth, or an anus.” That’s purely a personal opinion, however.
RalfW
@Komrade: The Bible doesn’t really very clearly say that homosexuality is wrong. A small handful of verses, in translation from the Greek and/or Aramaic is, after translation, being further interpreted by placing into modern context concepts that 2,000 years ago were probably about 1) don’t rape visitors to your town and 2) we need babies so do your wife, not your boy-slave or best pal..
Of course this line of argument is utterly, patently unproductive with the likes of Rick DeMato who think the modern english language BIble is a directly faxed, verbatim, book from God.
asiangrrlMN
FYWP.
@Gary Farber: No one says “No offense” if the person thinks what he/she says is not going to cause offense. If someone does not want to cause offense by a statement one is prefacing with no offense, then maybe that person shouldn’t make the statement. Same with all due respect. There is no reason to say it other than to emphasize how much you are going to disagree with the person you (general you) are addressing.
@JGabriel: I don’t think factual information, the bare bones as it were, would be too much information such as, “A pen is can be inserted into a vagina, a mouth, or an anus.” That’s purely a personal opinion, however.
ETA: And, apparenty, WP agrees with you that pen is should not be mentioned.
Lancelot Link
I have to confess, I am fond of the proper use of “with all due respect”.
Here’s a really good example;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YD-xxoQwOo4
Mnemosyne
@DMD:
With all due respect, that makes no sense at all. You admit that saying something nice after “with all due respect” or “no offense” makes no sense, but then you argue that people using those phrases aren’t using them to try and cover up that they’re getting ready to say something mean?
If “with all due respect” were a completely neutral phrase, as you claim, then it would make perfect sense to say something like, “With all due respect, you’ve always been a great cook, but you’ve really outdone yourself with this Thanksgiving dinner.” But it doesn’t, because everyone knows that “with all due respect” really means “I’m about to be an asshole to you, but I’m going to try and put a pleasant sounding phrase in front of it to pretend that’s not what I’m doing.”
Hob
So yeah, of course we tell our kids to be nice even to sinful sinners… just for pete’s sake don’t tell them what sinners DO.
Don’t let them read the Bible either– it’s all “knew his
wife” this and “adultery” that. I mean, if you tell a kid that Jesus saved the life of an adulterer, then they’ll want to know what adultery is, and that’s how they get in trouble.
Back in the ’40s, my dad’s Sunday school text had a novel approach to the latter. He swears this is true: they illustrated the commandment against adultery with a person surreptitiously pouring water into a bottle of milk. See, they’re adulterating the milk– don’t ever do that!
Mnemosyne
@JGabriel:
In addition to what other people have said, I can’t help but wonder if those specifics were meant to be part of an anti-molestation lesson — as in, “Perverts might want to touch you in these areas, and here’s why.”
mclaren
There’s a level of stupidity beyond which I lose the ability to understand what people are thinking. Montana reached that point a while back.
Hob
@greennotGreen: I’m skeptical, to put it mildly, about the “oral/anal in 5th grade” claim. I’m not saying it’s impossible that someone did write that in a guideline (even in Montana)… just saying that the last 1000 times I’ve seen statements like that, they turned out to be grade-A baloney, based on either (a) something incredibly general that’s just meant to avoid leaving kids vulnerable to the “it’s not really sex if you just let me do this” dodge, or (b) nothing at all.
ricky
No offense but if they don’t want to get bullied they need to quit sashayin round like sissies. Now your average intelligent folk, on the other hand, don’t go messin with then manly wimmen, with all due respect.
beergoggles
If you don’t teach kids about anal and vaginal sex in 5th grade, how will they know what the priest is doing to them?
Paul
I lived in Montana, so I know of their live and let live attitudes which are pretty much a bunch of horse and cow plop.
It’s pretty much a one way street with many of them.
They’ll let you live (maybe) if you’re white, Christian, heterosexual (and being born there, so you’re considered a native Montanan, also helps. Yet in their pecking order, even if your family goes back further, i.e., Native Americans born in Montana for thousands of years, that doesn’t count because of other white Montanans social and cultural pecking order).
I’m glad pretty much these days, regarding Montana, all I have to do with it is fly over it.
Beautiful big sky country, true, yet also true is it’s a place full of way more than enough people with too many narrow minds.
eir
The oral/anal thing may sound weird, but remember that we have a lot of (frequently Christian)”technical virgins” who think that it doesn’t count so long as a penis doesn’t enter a vagina. If you’re going to teach kids what sex is, I think it’s also reasonable to mention that oral/anal intercourse is also sex and can still lead to STDs. And, as Hob mentioned above, that’s also relevant to rape/molestation education – i.e., if someone forces you to give them a blow job, that’s rape.
Felanius Kootea (formerly Salt and freshly ground black people)
@Lancelot Link: Ah yes, the tried and true “with all due respect, in the most unparliamentary language, FOOOCK YOU!”
The cowbell is the best part.
Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther
@gbear: This idea, this idea that children are looking at the world and being made to feel as if they are, themselves, in their bodies and souls, Beyond The Pale, just breaks my heart. And it makes me marvel at the human spirit, because of what so many good, loving, giving people have had to overcome.
Hob
OK, for those who are curious (either about the facts of life or about Montana), here’s the Helena Public Schools Health Enhancement K-12 Critical Competencies Draft.
The dirty parts are to be found on pp. 45-46. The 5th-grade section reads in its entirety:
Note, this is a description of the goals to be addressed by the curriculum – not a text to be read to the kids (if it were, I can only imagine the Beavis-style guffaws, as the poor gym teacher who drew the short straw for health class tried to hurry past the word “penetration”). And there’s nothing at all to suggest that they’d be teaching how to do stuff, showing pictures, etc. The message boils down to “this is is a big confusing subject that includes a lot of things, and we know a lot of you are probably thinking about it, and we’re not going to get into all that now but be careful.”
Hob
I forgot to say that I myself am totally fine with those guidelines. They introduce new concepts very gradually – the 6th-grade points are much the same as the 5th grade, plus a bit more about why you need to be careful and a reminder to ask your parents about stuff. Between the ages of 10 and 12 is when I became totally obsessed with all things sexy & forbidden (though still too shy & squeamish to either look, touch, or ask questions), and I don’t think that’s unusual. And my peers were certainly a font of breathless misinformation.
protected static
To build upon what Hob said – I don’t know about y’all, but I remember sexual attraction & experimentation really kicking in around 5th or 6th grade. For me, at least, none of it ended in actual sex of any kind, but still – by 6th grade, even (especially?) in the rural-ass town I grew up in 30-or-so years ago, I had classmates who had had sex. Some of them were kids who had been held back a year, some were abused, and at least one was a bona fide psycho (currently serving a life sentence in GA for rape & attempted murder; has a younger brother who’s a suspected serial killer), but sex was a done deal by 6th grade… We went to a 7-12 Jr/Sr high school, & the exploitation of 7th & 8th-graders by upperclassmen wasn’t terribly widespread, but it was definitely there.
More, sooner, accurate, and contextually appropriate is a Good Thing, as far as I’m concerned.
JGabriel
Mnemosyne: Yes, that seemed the most potentially likely scenario to me as well.
.
Brad Hanon
To be fair, I myself use “No offense meant” and variants from time to time. I think it’s because language is an imperfect tool, and we’ve all had the experience of phrasing something badly, and having someone take it very much to heart. For me, “No offense meant” means “Of the two or more possible interpretations of my comment, I wish to assure you that I meant the less offensive one.” It’s a request for the benefit of the doubt, in other words.
I might say “It would never have occurred to me to try it that way, no offense meant.” Which means “I’m not trying to say that your way is crazy or ill-advised, I’m trying to say I didn’t think of that.”
Similarly, “With all due respect, I think you’re wrong about that” is an attempt to defuse the all-too-common problem where you criticize someone’s argument or information, and they take it as an attack on them as a person. I think we’ve all plowed into that one a time or two.
Of course, I fully agree that too many people try to use these phrases as get-out-of-asshole-free cards, along the lines of “I’m not racist but…” I’m just trying to make the case that get-out-of-asshole-free is not their only use.
Mnemosyne
@Brad Hanon:
Not to be pedantic (oh, who am I kidding?) but I do think there’s a difference between saying something, seeing the reaction you got, and saying, “No offense meant,” and saying it up front. The first one is saying something that you didn’t realize might be offensive until it was too late, and now you’re apologizing. The second one means, “I’m going to say something that I know will offend you, but I want to try to turn it around on you so that if you do get mad, it’s your fault and not mine.”
However, Gary Farber was trying to claim that no one ever means to be offensive when they start off by saying “no offense, but …” and anyone who thinks they are is jumping to unfair conclusions. We all live in the same culture and we all know what it means (which is why there’s an extended “no offense” joke that shows up in Aliens) and it’s disingenuous to pretend that people who start their sentences with “no offense, but …” are just good-hearted people who are cruelly misunderstood.
Hob
@Mnemosyne: Huh? Gary may be a bit of a nit-picker at times, but I’m pretty sure if he’d meant to say “no one ever means to be offensive…” he would’ve said so. Actually he just said that the reverse (i.e. no one ever means it sincerely) is an exaggeration.
Mnemosyne
@Hob:
This is what Gary said:
I will walk back very slightly — he’s claiming that most of the time, people don’t mean to be offensive when they say “no offense, but …”
I say that’s bullshit, and people who start sentences with “no offense, but” know that they’re about to say something offensive and are just trying to turn the tables on the listener and make it seem like the listener’s problem if they get upset.
IOW, Gary Farber has actually fallen for the scam and thinks that if ABL gets angry when someone says “no offense, but most criminals are black people,” it’s ABL’s fault if she gets angry since, after all, the speaker pre-immunized himself, right?
Hob
@Mnemosyne: Good grief… you make it sound like Gary was really putting ABL down or making excuses for bad behavior, and I don’t get that at all. He is nit-picking some, which he admits willingly. But it’s absolutely true that if you project any assumption onto everyone who happens to use a certain phrase, when there really is more than one way it could be meant, then you’ll be wrong sometimes, and it’s probably better to pay attention to that other evidence that he mentioned… which there’s plenty of in ABL’s example.
In any case, I’ve read Gary’s writing for years and, say what else you will about him, I can’t think of many people for whom the phrase “he’s fallen for the scam” is less appropriate.
SpaceSquid
It’s at least possible that some of this is complicated by the fact that I’m not sure “showing tolerance towards X” and “tolerating X” have the same meaning, or at least their meaning has diverged a little at some point. It may not match the true dictionary definitions, but it’s at least arguable that there is a whole bunch of indivual acts and comments that might fit in the second term, but not the first.
This becomes more clear when you consider schools can teach tolerance of all peoples; with homosexuality being just one facet of humanity that it is important be understood. Once you start discussing who must be tolerated, though, you have no choice but to start drawing up lists of those who get to be accepted, and those who get to be tolerated.
Gary Farber
This is completely false. Also, you’re attributing to me an opinion that only an insane person could hold. Which seems odd.
Hob: #55:
Quite.
Mnemosyne:
Wrong. “Much” has a different meaning than “most.”
I’m fine with people arguing all they like with what I write. However, if you misread and then claim I believe or think or wrote something I did not, you’re not arguing with me, but with an imaginary version in your head.
Thanks for your 57, Hob. And now to dismantle this computer set-up for shipping to California where I’ll be flying out to move on Thursday, so please forgive me if I don’t show up again for some weeks.
Gary Farber
Mnemosyne:
But let me try to be clear: Please find someone who believes this to argue with, if you want to argue it, Mnemosyne, as I wrote absolutely nothing of the kind.
I wrote nothing like the above whatever since I believe nothing of the kind, and think nothing of the kind. I didn’t even address the topic.
And it’s unpleasant when people make up stuff about what one thinks, and then make false claims as to what one thinks.
Please don’t try mind-reading me again. You’re no good at it. And please don’t make declarative statements about what I “think.”
You aren’t in a position to know, and when you make such a claim as “Gary Farber […] thinks that […]” you have to know that you can’t know that.
I assume you aren’t actually delusional, but simply are writing hastily, carelessly, and unintentionally making a false claim that can’t be supported, and aren’t knowingly lying.
But I do suggest reconsidering the notion of reading something, and then declaring what the author “thinks” if the author hasn’t actually written the words you’re imagining the author must really mean. Because when it works out to making false claims about other people holding offensive opinions that you’re only imagining, it doesn’t tend to lead to productive conversation.
For me, please stick to quoting words I write, and responding to those, alone. Thanks kindly. See y’all later.
draftmama
I live in Helena MT and we went through this crap for weeks, led by the completely wacky Tea Party candidate for State House. Helena is actually pretty blue, like Missoula, but we have our fair number of stoopid wackjobs. FYI the sex ed part of the curriculum was a small piece of a much larger social curriculum. And considering the number of teen pregnancies, an epidemic of STD’s among kids and dreadful bullying in HS, its entirely reasonable.
Except God hates f*gs and God is always right, dontcha know……
Original Lee
@kommrade reproductive vigor: This this thisity this.
I think 5th grade is a little young for the detail, but OTOH I bought my son 2 books that have considerable detail in them, and he read them with squicked-out horror and shared them with his best friend. That was my decision as a parent, to give him this information at 10 years old.
I explained homosexuality to my kids when they were in 2nd Grade (not in detail). I’ve had to explain a lot of stuff to them earlier than I would have liked AND earlier than I would have needed an explanation when I was their age, which I find sad.
I have tried to explain the tolerance program to friends and acquaintances who object to this part of the curriculum. The fact that they fail to grok the difference between leaving somebody alone and beating the crap out of them shows a fairly basic misunderstanding of the word tolerance, IMO.
brantl
@Gary Farber: Nope.
What it means is, they are going to say something that they realize is likely to offend you, but want a get out of jail free pass, for when they do offend you. Otherwise, they wouldn’t say it. You’re splitting hairs here, Gary. Very small hairs, at that. Get a grip.
Jado
“You cannot teach kids tolerance while at the same time preach that homosexuality is wrong and is repulsive to Christian values”
Uggh. Fine.
Tolerance is gone. But it’s YOUR fault; you were the one that said we had to choose.
Hogan
“I don’t want to badmouth the kid, but he’s a horrible, dishonest, immoral louse. And I say that with all due respect.”
–Broadway Danny Rose
(But hey, hate the sin, love the filthy degenerate pervert who commits it. Bless his heart.)
Gary Farber
Thank you for your original and insightful advice. I shall now completely reconsider.