something-something “where the wind comes sweeping down the plains”1
Sometimes what you need on a Monday is a little schadenfreude for the soul. Here’s some, for ya:
Members of a Kansas church who protest at military funerals may have found themselves in the wrong town Saturday.
To make matters worse, as their minivan slowly hobbled away on two flat tires, with a McAlester police car following behind, the protesters were unable to find anyone in town who would repair their vehicle, according to police.
The minivan finally pulled over several blocks away in a shopping center parking lot, where AAA was called. A flatbed service truck eventually arrived and loaded up the minivan.
Assistant Police Chief Darrell Miller said the minivan was taken to Walmart for repairs.
Even before the protesters discovered their damaged tires, they faced off with a massive crowd of jeering and taunting counter-protesters at Third Street and Washington Avenue, two blocks from the First Baptist Church, where the soldier’s funeral was held.
Miller estimated that crowd to number nearly 1,000 people, and they not only drowned out the Westboro protesters with jeers, but with raucous chants of “USA, USA.”
Fred Phelps is an asshole. The members of the Westboro Baptist Church are assholes. They got thusly served.
1 Far too intellectually lazy today to think of something witty. ETA: So lazy that I got the locale wrong. It was Oklahoma, not Kansas. Derp.
[cross-posted at ABLC]
Martin
Wait for the lawsuits to be filed. Westboro is just a grifter team masquerading as a church.
Remfin
And they’ll sue the city, walk away with a multi-million dollar settlement, and get exactly what they came for.
You don’t think they actually do this for religious reasons, right?
4tehlulz
Since when does helping them achieve their goals qualify as being “served”?
Southern Beale
While I can’t help but share in the schadenfreude, I suspect the Westboro Baptist Church received this cold reception because they were protesting a military funeral, NOT because of their anti-gay homophobic views.
Not saying this Kansas town shares these anti-gay views, but I just wonder how many folks would have gone out on a limb if the Phelps cultists were protesting some kind of GLBT pride event or the like.
Just some … perspective. Attacking gays I suspect is still OK. Just leave the military alone. And gays in the military? Don’t get them started.
The Moar You Know
Frist three commentors nailed it. This isn’t schadenfreude, this is fucking payday for the Phelps family. They are masters of this game and they know how to win in court each and every time.
Bubblegum Tate
Holy shit, is that anti-fig flyer a real, serious thing?
dmsilev
Hatred of Fred Phelps and his spawn is one of the few things which truly brings us together as a nation.
So, there is that.
dms
Brian S (formerly Incertus)
@Remfin: Normally, I would agree, but I don’t know who the Phelps family would sue here. The police? Is there some requirement that police are liable for damage they don’t prevent? Is the city liable for that? I think that as long as the police did a report and did a basic investigation, they’re probably safe. And if you never find out who actually slashed the tires, then you don’t find out who’s liable here. What am I missing?
The Other Chuck
The fig flyer is a real thing. As for serious, I guess it depends on what you mean by that. No there’s not a burgeoning anti-fig movement underway.
Gebghis
Very very sad. If it stops Westboro Baptist, then maybe it was worth it, but I’m afraid it will only lead to more escalation. My heart breaks for the families who are being terrorized by the WB thugs. How misguided! How wrong!
….H
mikefromArlington
Next time pour concrete down the gas tank and spray that insulation foam in a can into the exhaust pipes.
Jordan
Slashing the tires of people you don’t agree with politically is not something I would encourage.
zzyzx
Why do we allow these 40 asshats dominate the press so much. They always are shouted down.
4tehlulz
@zzyzx: Because they’re a troll show. And the press loves nothing more than a troll show.
See also: Sarah Palin.
Brian S (formerly Incertus)
@Jordan: Yeah, I’m with you on that, and not just because the Phelps’s are lawsuit happy. The ends just don’t justify the means. I mean, I’m not shedding any tears for the Phelps clan here, but I would be mad if say, someone did it to me when I was at an anti-war rally.
Angry Black Lady
@Southern Beale: that’s a very good point.@4tehlulz: i’m not sure what you mean. i enjoyed the bit about them not being able to find anyone to repair their vehicle, but my schadenfreude has been lessened by southern beale’s comment.@Remfin: who would they sue and under what theory?
Brian S (formerly Incertus)
@Angry Black Lady:
That part I can certainly get behind.
4tehlulz
@Angry Black Lady: They want to be oppressed and martyred, and this gives that to them on a silver platter.
The thing that they hate the most is to be ignored (hard as that is, I know), so that what needs to be done with them.
Martin
@Brian S (formerly Incertus): They can sue anyone, and they do. Remember, Westboro managed to kick their way up to SCOTUS.
They’ll sue the city, the police, the organized counter-protesters, and if they find out who slashed the tires they’ll sue them. They’ll sue everyone who refused to help them fix the flats.
Tom Betz
@The Other Chuck: The author of the fig flyer is clearly a fan of Thom Hartmann. The “God Hates Figs” routine is one of his regular schticks, along with “pigeons are alien robots from the planet Xenu”.
Winston Smith
@Jordan:
I seriously disapprove of such vigilante tactics. Had I seen the people slashing the tires, I would have told them so.
Very sternly.
MobiusKlein
@Jordan: What if I disagree socially, is that OK? I missed the style-guide on tire slashing etiquette.
Donald G
Actually, folks, the town of McAlester is in Oklahoma, not Kansas. My wife accidentally left her checkbook and driver’s license in a McDonald’s there once on a roadtrip. The folks in McAlester mailed it back to us.
While I’m sure there are plenty of homophobic rightwing nutjobs in McAlester, there are also decent people there, too.
I wouldn’t classify tire-slashing as decent, however.
Michael D.
@Jordan: This, I agree with.
freelancer
I don’t endorse the tire slashing. At all. I find it the wrong way to deal with hatemongers such as the Phelps. You don’t counter assholes by being a BIGGER asshole.
Loneoak
@Angry Black Lady:
Yeah, I want to second ABL’s question. Who are they going to sue for this? I’m especially baffled by the idea that they have any grounds for suing the city.
Bubblegum Tate
@The Other Chuck:
I mean not a spoof. At first glance, I thought it was a Phelps-style “God hates fags!” flyer with a comical typo. Then I realized that no, the writer intended to target figs, leaving the question of whether the writer was spoofing Phelps-style “God hates fags!’ dumbassery or seriously concerned about the evil that figs represent.
The Other Chuck
I agree. Slashing their tires is too simple. These people need to have their lives utterly shattered in every way.
Maybe they “win” in some way by causing me to hate, but nonetheless I *HATE* Phelps and his clan, and I won’t be sorry for it no matter how many repulsive false equivalencies are thrown my way.
Martin
@4tehlulz: Westboro has turned right-wing victimization syndrome into a family profession. This is their career, and opponents and counter-protestors and police and cities too disgusted to stand up for Westboro are their customer base from which to extract revenue.
ruemara
@Loneoak:
For creating a hostile to jerks environment?
Mnemosyne
I disapprove of tire-slashing on principle, so what I really admire in this story is the townspeople sticking together and refusing to do the repairs. Otherwise, it would just be a story about vandals.
Zuzu's Petals
Waiting for people to show up with “God Hates Bigots” signs at a Phelps funeral. Or wedding. Or … oh, just anything.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Winston Smith: “Had I seen the people slashing the tires, I would have told them …”
… that using a locking blade would be safest and that wiping the blade with an oily rag before inserting it into the tire would make it slice the tire easier.
Yes, I’m an asshole and proud of it.
joeyess
@Southern Beale: They don’t dare protest any kind of gay pride event. If they did those proud queens would split their skulls, rightfully so, and the WBC would be looking to repair more than slashed tires.
Mnemosyne
@Loneoak:
The Phelpses don’t need grounds. They file nuisance suit after nuisance suit until their targets break down and settle with them.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
It was totally wrong that their tires got slashed. But I’m still going to enjoy the fact that someone did it. Exactly the same way I will enjoy that guy yanking the Koran out of that preacher’s hands.
Once again, we turn to xkcd. The image tag reads “Police reported three dozen cheerful bystanders, yet no one claims to have seen who did it.”
suzanne
@freelancer:
Damn. So much for my M.O.
Brachiator
@Southern Beale:
Possibly true. But still, it’s a start, and anything that punctures the self-important balloon of these goons is a win.
Possible. But let’s see how this plays out this time.
scav
Okla, isn’t that the state living in abject terror of someday coming under Sharia law? How’s their state of terror about living under the religious law of these pure Xians? Mixed up state of affairs.
I’m also getting a major giggle about ‘Mercans being those that simultaneously don’t find waterboarding to be torture and necessary in any case for national safety but do find patting down the buttocks to be an unwarrented invasion of privacy.
4tehlulz
@freelancer: What if I was a bigger asshole for its own sake? Then is it OK?
Andy Hall
@Bubblegum Tate: The flier is real, but it is probably based on a Westboro-mocking sign from the DC rally couple weeks back.
But yeah, it’s in the Gospels:
emdee
This happened in McAlester, OK, which is one of the largest cities in the OK-2 House district. Yeah, they elected Dan Boren, but that was a) because of his name when he replaced Tom Coburn; b) because he campaigned dirty against a real Democrat (Kalyn Free) in the primary, and c) because now he’s an incumbent, even if a DINO.
Coburn’s election to the House in that district from 1994-2000 was an anomaly; the district is reliably Democratic, and was gerrymandered by the GOP governor (over the Democratic legislature’s objections, but with the courts’ approval) to be even more so in the last redistricting. They’re conservative, but not Teatards. Unless it’s a wave election and there’s no incumbent, they’re going to elect a Democrat.
Bud
I once saw these assholes reduce a mother whose son had died of AIDS into a sobbing heap on the grass.
These people are evil. But they are also, ironically, the best friends the gay community has. They are so hateful that people who would not otherwise care about how they harrass gay people take note of their antics and vow to never behave that way.
MikeJ
It would be interesting to go to a small town like this for a military funeral, join the counter protestors and unfurl a “McAlester Loves Gays” sign.
Martin
@Brachiator: They play the long game. My investment strategy is similar – a lot of long-odds bets, expecting to lose everything 9 times out of 10 and then get the 5000% or 10000% return that 10th time.
They may not get anything out of this, but what did it cost them? 2 tires, gas, and signs. Their opponents probably spent a lot more than they did. If they sue and get $1000, they’re ahead. If someone violates their rights, or the city does, they’ll collect 10x that or 100x that – enough to pay for their escapades from the last 3 months.
jacy
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
Likewise. I guess I’m not evolved enough to feel bad when someone gets just a little bit back of what they deserve.
I probably wouldn’t slash the tires, but I sure as hell would applaud who did it and deny I’d seen anything. I’m petty that way.
The Populist
@Remfin:
Sue the city how? I had my windows damaged thanks to some rowdy kids but I can’t sue the city for the actions of others.
These freaks had it coming and I hope people do this to them in every town they protest in. Free speech is something I don’t want to infringe upon, even if I find the words vile, but as long as they aren’t physically harmed, I won’t cry when they find their tires slashed.
LOL, I doubt they have all this money to keep fixing their tires. In the end, Kharma is a bitch.
Legalize
Yes, the Phelps gang troll around for law suits, but there’s no one they can sue here. Correction – they can go after the master-minds who slashed their tires. Good luck with that.
Julia Grey
You don’t counter assholes by being a BIGGER asshole.
What about that whole Sean Connery speech? You know the one: “They bring a knife, you bring a gun….”
I think the idea of “God Hates Bigots” signs at the next counter-protest is really cool.
By the way, does the law still recognize the concept of “fighting words” as mitigation any more?
The Populist
@Belafon (formerly anonevent):
Yes, but I am quite sure their hate speech leads others to beat down on a gay person or burn a mosque and for that these Phelps assholes deserve much worse (kharma, not physical harm).
See, I won’t support anybody who hurts these freaks or burns down their church. I will laugh when somebody slashes their tires. Tires get costly in the long run and I do give credit to people for not doing more to the car. It was fun to see the shitstorm get heaped on these hatetards for once.
Warren Terra
I can’t endorse the tire slashing. If some people had lay down in front of their minivan, or done some other form of protest that took responsibility and wasn’t anonymous vandalism, I’d cheer. And it’s great to see people refuse their business … though I get a bit queasy about that, and worry about where it might end up, because while these people are monumental assholes and basically deserve to be treated as such, what if I can’t get my car fixed because it has an Obana sticker? Because it has a California license plate?
RE the “God Hates Figs”, it’s a parody of the Phelps slogan, often seen on their signs and flyers, “God Hates Fags”. There have been a number of excellent parodies used in counter-demonstrations (it may not be the most imaginitive, but the Chicago demonstration was one of the most heartwarming), activities that cause me to rejoice in my fellow man in a way that this act of anonymous petty vandalism does not.
The Populist
@Legalize:
They can but I could counter-argue that their tires popped thanks to glass or faulty maintenance.
fasteddie9318
It’s hard to imagine that they could win a lawsuit on this. The police and town can’t be held liable for not preventing crime or for failure to catch the criminal(s), or else every police department and local government in the country will be buried under an avalanche of lawsuits. The counter-protesters were perfectly within their rights to counter-protest, and I can’t imagine that our fine, pro-business Supreme Court wants to get into the business of ordering car service centers to accept clientele that they would otherwise refuse to serve.
Paul in KY
@freelancer: IMO, you aren’t being ‘a bigger asshole’ than them when you slash their tires.
With that crew, there’s a whole nother level of ‘asshole’ to go before you’re being the bigger one.
The Populist
@Warren Terra:
I have a feeling that extreme righties see your Obama sticker but would still fix your car (while making fun of you).
For me this is a slippery slope, agreed, but bullies need to get their beat down and I am glad to see the crowd resort to only slashing their tires. I would never condone destroying the windows, fucking with the engine, brakes, etc.
Being a left of center independent, I tire of people like this and it makes me feel good that somebody told them to go away in a way where nobody was hurt and they were the ones being embarrassed for once.
The Populist
@Paul in KY:
Watching them drive off with flat tires is like watching a bully walk away from a fight with his tail between his legs. It is a nice sight for once.
The Populist
@fasteddie9318:
Unless the Phelps inbreds have pictures or witnesses, they have zero case. You can’t sue a city for vandalism. You can press charges and sue the individual but good luck figuring out who did it.
Martin
@Legalize: You can sue anyone. There may not be anyone here they can win against, but plenty of battles have been won simply due to the intimidation of a lawsuit. How many counter-protesting groups are going to keep going knowing they need to dump money into defending lawsuits? And sooner or later they’re going to get some police officer who clearly failed to protect their civil liberties, and they’re going to sue them personally, and the city broadly for discrimination and win. Further, they’re going to catch someone slashing their tires, or throwing a punch, or something that they know they can sue into the 5 or 6 figure range.
licensed to kill time
Tire-slashing in general is bad, but I’d definitely look the other way if I saw it happening to those scumbags’ van. A case of temporary blindness, as it were.
Oh, and hey God, I hate figs, too! I lived in a place once that had a fig tree whose limbs hung over the driveway. What.A.Mess.
Paul in KY
@The Populist: Hear, hear!
Carnacki
Phelps said West Virginia was by far the worst place the group has ever picketed. I take pride in that.
A Ghost To Most
@Martin:
and this would be different from other churches how?
Legalize
@Martin:
I know you can sue anyone. The “anyone” with deep pockets here is the city. Maybe the police department.
Dissmissable on many grounds.
zzyzx
What drives me crazy is that one of the women at the Seattle protests (that I counter protested) was a smart, funny person who uses creativity to… errr… change the lyrics of Beatles songs to be about how all Jews will be eternally tortured. In a different world, I would like her.
Southern Beale
@A Ghost To Most:
Every church I’ve ever been involved with actually HELPS the local community, for one.
And thanks for reminding me why I’ve always said liberals can be as intolerant as conservatives where religion is concerned.
Gravenstone
What would have been a nice touch would be the police citing them for operating an unsafe vehicle. After all, they did try to drive with two flat tires initially, before finally getting a service vehicle summoned.
Warren Terra
@A Ghost To Most:
The Westboro group runs a grift that benefits their church at the expense of outsiders; most churches take from their members to benefit their leaders. That’s a pretty important difference.
Linda Featheringill
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
I agree.
These traveling demons of WB are mean and cruel and inflict large amounts of emotional damage and attack people at their most vulnerable [in the midst of grief].
And you goody-two-shoes types are upset because somebody damaged their goddamnded property?
What the hell is wrong with you?
iLarynx
@Martin: Technically, you can’t sue just “anyone” or “John Doe.” You have to name someone and if you can’t name the culprit, you can’t sue him.
A suit against the police would be thrown out of court before Phelps’ lawyer could sit down. And any suit against a private auto shop is almost as pointless. No tire store carries every size tire. It’s an easy defense to say, “we didn’t have that size so I couldn’t replace the tire.” Or that they were busy or shorthanded or something. It then basically becomes a he-said/she-said which will then get flushed down the judicial toilet.
In fact, it would probably be great publicity for any tire store to get sued by these assholes. Definitely worth their while to go to court and defend their actions.
stuckinred
For all ya’ll know they slashed their own tires. Fuck em either way.
Martin
@Legalize: Sure, but these guys are counting on the law of large numbers to come though in their favor. The more visibility they have, the more angry opposition they have, the more likely they’ll someday get a 6 or 7 figure payday against a city or group or individual.
And in the meantime, their visibility gets them donations from sympathetic nutjobs.
MikeJ
So everybody’s cool with physical violence to stop speech, as long as we don’t like what the people are saying, right?
This, the Qur’an snatcher, anybody other haters of the first amendment we’re supposed to applaud?
suzanne
Can I ask why only two of the tires got slashed? I mean, if you’re gonna go Full Metal Asshole, why not double down?
stuckinred
@MikeJ:What physical violence. They are TIRES.
stuckinred
@suzanne: They may have been smart enough to nail the tire on the side where they couldn’t be seen. Yall’s some rookie’s around here.
Linda Featheringill
@MikeJ:
The Koran snatcher committed an act of civil disobedience. Illegal, but morally correct. Especially as it was done to prevent an act of greater wrong.
licensed to kill time
It would’ve been cool to get up a flash mob to surround their van with “God Hates Flats” signs.
Barry
@Winston Smith: “I seriously disapprove of such vigilante tactics. Had I seen the people slashing the tires, I would have told them so.
Very sternly. ”
So would I.
Afterwards.
Over a pitcher of beer.
suzanne
@stuckinred: Guilty as charged. I’ve never slashed anyone’s tires. I prefer to sneeze on their door handles. Especially when ill.
Amir_Khalid
@suzanne: You need to slash two tires to immobilize a vehicle that carries one spare. But slashing more than two is wasted effort and exposes the tire slasher to a needless extra risk of being caught.
stuckinred
@Linda Featheringill: People go on and on about false equivalences and then make one with these bottom feeding low-life fuckers. When they came here we met in a big group before hand and it was made clear that we’d just screen them from the family. The coppers did have their van covered or who knows what would have gone down.
stuckinred
@suzanne: :) Typhoid Annie!
jrosen
The tire-slashers are assholes too. But they are our assholes, this once.
suzanne
@stuckinred: Damn skippy. Last week, some lowlife motherfucker took the parking space I was sitting and waiting for patiently, with my turn signal on. (Stealing the parking spot of an eight-months-pregnant chick = ass-a-holic.) So my husband very kindly went over and donated some strep throat to their cause.
MikeJ
@stuckinred: So this:
From a wingnut blog seems perfectly reasonable?
Brian S (formerly Incertus)
@MikeJ: What does the First Amendment have to do with this? I’ve already said that I’m not in favor of violent responses to speech, even when it’s speech that’s clearly begging for a violent response, but the First Amendment doesn’t apply here. Congress isn’t banning the Phelps family from speaking. Individuals are responding to the Phelps family.
JoyceH
The thing about God hating figs? That’s actually in the Bible, you can look it up.
It’s in Matthew (21:18-19), AND Mark (11:12-14), and one other gospel that I don’t have time to look it up – it’s in THREE of the four gospels, so it really struck those disciples how irked Jesus was with that fig tree.
On the other hand, Jesus never said word one against homosexuality.
The Moar You Know
@Linda Featheringill: George Bush’s defense of warrantless wiretapping in three sentences. I commend you on your brevity.
Paul in KY
@Gravenstone: Agreed. That would have dotted the i & crossed the t, if the police had completed the festivities like that.
MikeJ
@Brian S (formerly Incertus): Criminals are responding to speech they dislike. There’s nothing admirable in smashing the windows of local Democratic offices. There’s nothing admirable in slashing the tires of bigots.
Alan
Just as with the “dude you have no koran guy”, liberals can be such unapologetic thugs when it comes to people they disagree with. It’s just amazing– and embarrasing.
Kitty_Sanchez
I heard about a community that simply closed all of their businesses during the time that a KKK rally was scheduled to be held in their town. The rally ended up being very, very brief, and it attracted almost no press attention. Best of all, the town let these fuckers know — without doing anything overtly hostile or illegal — that the entire community shunned them. It’d be awesome if these Westboro freaks would likewise get shunned — in a meaningful way — by the communities they inflict themselves upon.
jacy
@Amir_Khalid:
I am not ashamed to say that I will file this away for future reference. Just in case.
Brian S (formerly Incertus)
@MikeJ: And I never fucking said there was. Read my comment if you’re going to actually respond to it.
celticdragonchick
@Jordan:
I have no problem with it here.
Bobby Thomson
@JoyceH:
Awfully petty for a deity, especially considering he was trying to eat the figs out of season.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@MikeJ: In the Koran case, the guy who took it took a chance on being arrested. If he had, I would not have gone after the police, though I would have donated to his defense fund.
Dave
@Jordan: “Political disagreement” really isn’t what led to Westboro’s tires being slashed.
Chyron HR
@Alan:
Yes, damn those far left Pelosi liberals that populate Oklahama.
Warren Terra
@The Moar You Know:
The Dude You Have No Koran guy wasn’t anonymous, and so was ready to take responsibility for his civilly disobedient theft. Fairly different from anonymous vandalism.
Also, does anyone know what thread MikeJ and Alan were reading? Because this one seems to lack the unanimous embrace of thuggery they report having encountered …
MikeJ
@Linda Featheringill:
No. He ran away. Had he turned himself in you night make a civil disobedience argument. He wasn’t willing to pay the price. It’s an insult to people who did to compare that idiot to them.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@Bobby Thomson: Why didn’t he just make the fig tree grow figs?
BDeevDad
These guys have the right counter-protest methodology.
Remfin
I never claimed they won in court, I said they’d get a settlement. When you sue the city, the county, the city council, the county board, the mayor (personally), the county commissioner (personally), the police department, the fire department, the police chief (personally), the fire chief (personally), individual officers, local news, reporters, private citizens who talk to reporters…
Eventually someone pays to make it all go away.
jacy
@MikeJ:
I guess there’s very limited space on the moral high ground you’re occupying.
Winston Smith
@JoyceH:
For anyone wondering, the figs are a metaphor for the leaders of Israel. There’s a fair amount of commentary in the New Testament in which Jesus excoriates the people who should recognize the messiah — and quite possibly do — but deny Him anyway to maintain the status quo.
He’s like, “Oh, come on you assholes, it’s your fucking job to recognize the messiah, but you won’t because if you did, you’d have to start working for a living.”
Mnemosyne
@MikeJ:
No, they’re not, unless you’re now saying that legislation you don’t like counts as “speech.” The tea partiers were threatening to break windows because of the Democrats’ actions in passing legislation, not the things that they say.
If we’re now going to designate laws we don’t like as “free speech” that can’t be infringed on, we’re in serious trouble.
A Ghost To Most
@Southern Beale:
As someone who has been a target of “good christians” for 35 years, and who have been very intolerant of my beliefs (including my and my wife’s families), that is a distinction without a difference. I used to be mildly amused/bemused by the way “christians” treated me; now I am angry/afraid.
Christians, heal your religion before you wonder why people like me fear you.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@Alan: Consistency will cause you to yell at fig trees.
Sorry we’re not pure enough, but even we like the occasional payback. Probably the biggest drawback to most of us is that if we were in the same position, we’d say “That person has a right to what he’s saying, and it’s wrong for me to slice his tires.”
I figure that’s one reason I’m agnostic: I hope something is going to happen to punish Phelps and his ilk.
Citizen Alan
My only hope is this: Since hateful funeral protests like the once WBC engages in appear to be constitutionally protected, I hope when that pig Phelps finally dies, that tens of thousands descend on Westboro to celebrate his descent into hell. I hope Fred Phelps’s funeral turns into a week-long Mardi Gras.
Southern Beale
@Kitty_Sanchez:
That would be Pulaski, Tennessee … home of the modern KKK and now tryting its damnedest to fight that label. Pulaski isn’t exactly a bastion of liberalism and tolerance but they at least recognize the Klan when they see it … even when they disguise themselves as a “European Heritage Festival.”
Alan
@Chyron HR
It probably wasn’t liberals that slashed the tires, but that act, and the refusal of the tire places to replace the tires is certainly not being condemned here except among some commentators.
@Warren Terra
From the blog post at the top of this thread:
“Fred Phelps is an asshole. The members of the Westboro Baptist Church are assholes. They got thusly served.”
Ash Can
Could someone please tell the tsk-tsk’ers here to speak up? There are so many flies swarming around the giant mountain of shit that is Westboro Baptist Church that the buzzing is drowning them out.
ed drone
@Bobby Thomson:
Yeah! Wouldn’t he, like, KNOW that there would be no figs on that tree? And here he is, omnipotent and all…
Goes to show, dunnit?
Ed
Chyron HR
@Alan:
Yes, it’s terrible the way some people here are making excuses for the actual tire-slashers.
Mnemosyne
@Southern Beale:
That’s the thing that freaks me out sometimes about the KKK and other white supremacists — they keep insisting that there’s such a thing as a “European.”
I mean, it’s great for people to celebrate their heritage. We have tons of European heritage festivals here in So Cal — Greek, Italian, French, Irish, whatever — and everybody has a great time.
But it’s so weird to me that they’re so ignorant of their own family histories that they fall back on “European” heritage as the thing that sets them above everyone else.
Southern Beale
@A Ghost To Most:
Not all Christians are intolerant, bigoted, assholes. I can’t make excuses for those who are except to say: they are not Christians. They’re just wrong. And I’m sorry for the pain caused by those who get it wrong.
But lots of people get this shit wrong and no one demands an apology. Everyone on the left seems to understand the difference between Muslims and Muslim extremists. Why can’t you understand the difference between Christians and Christian extremists? Our news media seems determined to mainstream the extremists of both faiths, yet the left cuts one group a pass while believing the worst of the other.
Southern Beale
@Mnemosyne:
Yes “European,” but not, you know, “Jewish European” or Roma or any group not blonde-haired, blue-eyed, and white complected.
Very strange. European is just a code word for “white.” No one is fooled.
Lost Left Coaster
I can’t endorse slashing the tires of this group and then leaving them without help.
Oh, wait, yes I can!
Southern Beale
@A Ghost To Most:
Let me add one final thing: The problem is not the religion. The problem is the people who have twisted it to fit their own political and ideological aims. That is *always* the problem with every organized religion.
Anyone who has spent any time studying Jesus’ words know he was a revolutionary soc1alisticky communisticky anti-capitalist dirty fucking hippie ….
Catsy
@Winston Smith:
Perhaps even with a sternly-worded letter?
Kitty_Sanchez
@Southern Beale:
Yeah, that must be the community I’m thinking of. It was very cool the way they handled that.
http://archive.itvs.org/forgottenfires/hate_b4.html
Hal
I guess that depends on your definition of “Christian Extremist.” In my book, that would be people like Ralph Reed, Pat Robertson, and many other of their ilk. And yet, they all have tv shows, or organizations with influence and huge followings.
They are presented as mainstream Christianity.
Ash Can
@Hal: I would argue that mainstream Islam has suffered a similar treatment.
Linda Featheringill
@Southern Beale:
You have a point.
I actually do know the difference between Christians and Christian extremists but have not been clearly attaching labels. I can remedy that oversight.
[Phelps, of course, is closer to “spawn of Satan” than anything else.]
A Ghost To Most
@Southern Beale:
Everything you said is true, but I don’t see many of the “tolerant christians” standing up to the bigoted assholes; and the ones that do, often suffer for doing so. My wife, who is one of the “tolerant christians” you reference, has been ostracized by her family for trying to stand up to the “good christians”, and defending my beliefs.
Christians, heal your religion before you start bitching about how others, who are on the receiving end of christian intolerance, perceive it. Excuse me if I don’t hold my breath.
scav
@Southern Beale: You’re also guilty of assuming that what we say here — on a thread largely about Christian extremists (no matter where one puts “mainstream” Christian beliefs, this lot is probably 2 or 3 stdevs out) — is the sum total of what we say at any time about all Christians at all time and under all circumstances. Given the current environment and conversations, sane people with balanced opinions about either religion will probably spend more time defending Muslims and deriding Christians just to get a little balance into the overall conversation.
catclub
@ed drone:
“Yeah! Wouldn’t he, like, KNOW that there would be no figs on that tree? And here he is, omnipotent and all…”
Um, I think you meant omniscient where you wrote omnipotent.
scav
@catclub: well, the omnipotent part could have put the figs on the trees, no matter what season it was. I suppose The Lord must have Senior Moments despite his omniscience.
Linda Featheringill
Speaking of Christian theology, the members of the Phelps cult should hope that Judgment Day is a myth.
ricky
Dumb Okies with a slim-jim don’t know how to hot wire a mini-van?
soonergrunt
While I’ll take good news about Oklahoma where I can get it, if Phelps were doing some other form of protest against homosexuals, I doubt very much we’d have heard of something like this anywhere, but especially Oklahoma.
McAlester is home the McAlester Army Ammunition Plant. Mostly civilians working there, making, repairing, and demilitarizing missile warheads and aerial bombs. I note this primarily because it cannot be overstated how much the people of McAlester love the Army. It’s like the family business for hundreds of area families. A pretty town in eastern Oklahoma, it’s actually Democrat country. The OK-2 is represented by Dan Boren, but could, conceivably be represented by an actual Democrat if there were actually a Democrat of any stature in the state besides Dan Boren. It was the absolutely wrong place for Phelps and his crew to do their thing.
Governor Henry, who as a firm centrist is about as left-wing as you will find in a successful OK politician, is term limited. We are hoping he’ll take on Jim Inhofe in 2012, so he doesn’t count for this purpose.
ricky
@soonergrunt:
I thought the only Democrats in Oklahoma were Texans recruited by the pro football coach in Norman.
soonergrunt
@ricky: why bother? The way they used seems to have worked pretty well.
geg6
@A Ghost To Most:
QFMFT. For reals.
burnspbesq
@Martin:
That’s why God created motions to dismiss, and limited fee-shifting rules that punish vexatious litigants.
donquijoterocket
@Remfin:
Not that I’d like to think well of the sooner state after their recent anti-sharia false flag vote and other reasons,but I’d think that the Phelps cult would have a most difficult time finding a sympathetic jury to any civil action anywhere in Oklahoma and hopefully anywhere else.An individual judge might find for them on strictly legal or constitutional grounds but any type of action requiring a jury decision they’d undertake at their risk, I’d hope.
geg6
@Southern Beale:
Well, you may be happy to know that this particular liberal makes no distinctions. I pretty much despise any and all religions, extremist arm or not. So I don’t discriminate. Muslim, Christian, Buddhist…whatever. No respect for any of them, equally.
soonergrunt
@ricky: There aren’t enough of them in Norman to counter the wingtards. Just like Tulsa.
Both cities are pretty liberal. The Tulsa World is actually a readable newspaper. It’s just that there’s two small islands of sanity in the vast sea of fuckwittedness.
Eastern and Southeastern Oklahoma is old school democrat though.
Funny story about eastern OK–I was on disaster relief a couple of years ago during a blizzard and they had us driving around eastern OK checking on the farmers. We’re out patrolling in a hummer on this route we were given and we’ve been stopping at each farm and checking on people. At each farm, we’d radio back to the armory with the condition of the family, drop off some bottled water if they needed it and so on.We get to this one farm, and there’s a sign on the fence (no snow on it, so we knew it was a new sign) and on the sign was the words “YOU ARE NOW IN RIFLE RANGE OF THE HOUSE”
We called in from the road that those people were just fine and went on to the next one.
Sue
Maybe they couldn’t get their tires fixed because everyone was at some funeral.
I explain the fig tree story to my Sunday Schoolers by calling it the “Jesus had a bad day” miracle. Everyone gets crabby sometimes, you know, like when you go to McDonald’s and your fries are cold or something. The biblical equivalent.
Paris
There were lots of claims that Westboro has received multi million dollar settlements from people reacting against them, Westboro likes to sue people, etc. I couldn’t find any evidence of this. Does anyone have any links?
Westboro has been ordered to pay restitution in one case:
“In the autumn of 2007, the father of a Marine whose funeral was picketed by the WBC was awarded $5 million in damages.”
They claim they spend $200k a year on demos. They’re getting money from somewhere.
J.
Speaking of Westboro Baptist, if y’all have not seen/heard Steve Martin’s brilliant “Atheists Don’t Have No Songs” — finally, a gospel song for atheists! — featuring the Steep Canyon Rangers check it out now. It will lift your spirits.
djheru
@Citizen Alan: A very GAY mardi gras
geg6
@Citizen Alan:
I love that idea. I think we could make that the first Balloon Juice Road Show. Cole, agoraphobic that he is, won’t come. But I’ll bet we could talk DougJ and Dennis G into coming.
soonergrunt
@Paris: The case you cite is currently before the Supreme Court. It’s been argued and is awaiting judgement. The damage award was already reversed by the appeals court.
Fred Phelps is a disbarred lawyer who made a lot of money in civil rights cases before he got caught with his hand the till and his daughter is a lawyer. She argued the case in front of the Supreme Court if memory serves.
djheru
@Sue: Well, then, you are doing your Sunday School students a great disservice. It represents the rejection of the nation of Israel as being “worthless” for not bearing spiritual “fruit”. The account in Mark continues on with the well-known story of Jesus’ cleansing of the Temple, which follows along the same lines.
cckids
@Kitty_Sanchez:
I agree, but the fact that they deliberately show up to make public assholes of themselves at funerals would make the “business closing, shunning” option difficult to carry out. I’m in favor of the tactic I saw last year (maybe in WV?). They showed up, started with the signs & shouting, and a group of college students grabbed a bullhorn, followed them around with louder shouting/chanting. It was kept jovial, more mocking WB church than trying to start anything. They left after a short time, tails between their legs, followed by the kids with the bullhorn. Very effective.
Linda Featheringill
One thing we learned today, children, is that when you feel compelled to take direct action, don’t tell anyone. And don’t publish it online. And don’t mention it on this blog.
XOXO
Moses2317
Figs????? I thought God hates shrimp.
http://godhatesshrimp.com/
Also, the best way to piss these people off is to call your Senators to urge them to repeal DADT during the lame duck session. Key Senators to call are at my blog:
Winning Progressive
maus
Ignore them.
The best way to piss these people off is to target the media and get them to stop reporting on these operations.
The Phelps clan lives to be hated, they profit off of any perceived assaults with lawsuits.
BruinKid
I’m thinking there should be some gay people willing to travel to Kansas to protest legally outside the Phelps residence on the sidewalk with big “GOD HATES BIGOTS” signs 24/7. Get enough people to do it in shifts. Give ’em a taste of their own medicine.
Lysana
The Phelpses used to protest at funerals of famous gay folks. San Franciscans have warm memories of countering their bigotry outside the church where Randy Shilts’ funeral took place, for one. I think WBC switched to soldiers’ funerals because it got them more publicity.
As for the fine folks of McAlester, OK, I know some of the protest organizers. Two staunch pagans who voted Democratic in the 2006 election and spat on that anti-shariah law bill. I’m praying someone got video of some of what they told me that didn’t make the news about the Phelpses’ reception. Like the priest who exorcised them off his church’s front lawn and followed that with blessing the Hell’s Angels’ bikes. And how that slashed minivan could’ve only been accessed by the police for quite a while there…
Jordan
@Dave: Ok, I’ll grant you that. Just a guess, but I’d imagine friends, relatives and/or fellow veterans of Sgt. McCluskey thought the Westboro people were going well beyond political disagreement. I have to say, were I burying a friend of mine only to have these insufferable jackasses show up, I’d be tempted to do worse.
So what I should have said was: I wouldn’t encourage slashing someone’s tires just because you disagree with their politics.
Why? Because thug tactics hurt your cause. It’s a good way to make the douches feel unwelcome; it’s bad politics.
The Populist
@MikeJ:
Uhhh, not the same thing. Many of us have said we would never support physical harm or destroying their car. The tires are more of a statement since nothing else seems to phase these inbreds. NOBODY is advocating we burn down their church, homes, hurt their children, etc.
No equivalency whatsoever. If I was dumb enough to leave my car in the open and counterprotest some rightie jerkwads, I deserve the tire slashing.
I am not advocating anything beyond that bit of symbolism. Tires are one of the cheapest and easiest things to fix on a car. I WOULD NOT approve if somebody broke windows, broke into the car to slash upholstery, break anything, destroy the engine, etc.
inflector
See what Dan Choi’s Army plans for the Westboro Baptist Church: http://scr.bi/c4msZQ
Tim Cooper
I’m going to join the “Ignore them” crew. It may feel good to shout/air horn/slash tires/whatever these guys. But they really are just a form of performance art, like the guy who piddles all over a cross or something. And yes I know they are vile, awful stunted human beings. But feeding trolls just encourages the behavior.
The Populist
@Alan:
You know what Alan? Why should I condemn it?? Ever lose a loved one?? I cannot imagine standing there watching them get buried, seeing my family members tearing up, watching kids cry and look over yonder to a bunch of assholes screaming GOD HATES FAGS and other such nonsense.
What cracks me up about the right is that I say who cares if their tires got slashed and it’s a big f-n deal. I didn’t wish harm on them, I didn’t cheer the people on who did it. People on the right talk about hurting other people. Whether they find their homes and post the addresses on the net or they try to silence anybody with a dissenting opinion.
I gave money to the family suing the Phelps’. I LOVE free speech but if Dick Cheney died tomorrow, I would not be over at his funeral yelling obscenities at the family. Guess what? It’s not the same to say you want to burn down a Pelosi HQ or shoot an abortion doctor. When the right lose, they talk about SECOND AMENDMENT REMEDIES. WTF?
Sorry dude, you want to take out your outrage? Free speech is fine but people should realize you can’t yell fire in a theater, you shouldn’t be able to protest in front of somebody’s actual home (yes, libs are included here) and you shouldn’t be allowed to post a private address or protest a funeral.
Sorry, if the right want to have some dialogue again…they need to calm the fuck down and meet us in the middle like they once did. THAT would be a fucking start.
The Populist
@Tim Cooper:
I’ve seen them in person. Everybody I was with kept asking who the inbreds were. They are a joke.
Steaming Pile
Who are they going to sue? Where, small claims court? I bet those tires cost maybe $40 apiece new. Installed.
Ruckus
@geg6:
Agreed.
And I know people who go to christian church (do I ever want to say religiously) regularly who are some of the best people I know. They have gone to NO to work on houses, they give of themselves, they seemingly follow the christian ethic. But they don’t make up for all the religions out there who have no idea of the christian ethic. And I don’t see why they get to say we’re good christians don’t lump us in with all the bad christians. If you have willingly joined a group that goes by some name and no one can tell if you are a good member or an asshole and seemingly the majority are assholes then I’m going to lump you in the bad group until you prove otherwise. And as some members are ASSHOLES (like the ones under discussion) I feel fully justified. You don’t want to be called out don’t associate with the people who need to be called out.
The Populist
@cckids:
Amen….I support that more than the tire slashing but it is nice to know they had to cover the costs of the tires AND leave with their wimpy tails between their legs.
To answer the apologists posting here (right wing of course): If I went to protest an unpopular thing, I’d park my car so far away that it would never be a problem. Parking your car where others can see it only encourages misbehavior, so too bad, so sad on the Phelps clan.
The Populist
@Steaming Pile:
If it keeps happening I’d have to wonder where they are getting the cash.
JoyceH
@Citizen Alan:
The old creep is 81. Keep your calendar flexible.
Though come to think of it, I don’t think he’s been at any of the recent protests; it’s the younger generation. Are we sure he’s still alive? They might have him mummified in that ‘compound’ of theirs.
Alan
@The Populist:
Sorry to be trite, but two wrongs don’t make a right. (no poetry intended).
We condemn lawlessness and vandalism because we are a country of laws and in a civilized society we follow the laws.
People can reasonably disagree about the wisdom of legal restrictions on protesting at funerals. I’m sure I would agree with some restrictions, just as I agree with certain restrictions regarding protests outside abortion clinics. The vandals’ understandable hatred for the Phelps’ does not excuse their violence towards them however.
Not condemning the business owners and public servants who refused to help the Phelps’ puts us on a slippery slope towards some very ugly things. I’m sure Rand Paul would defend the tire shops’ rights to refuse service (assuming he’s consistent), but I certainly don’t.
Alan
@The Populist:
“I’d park my car so far away that it would never be a problem. Parking your car where others can see it only encourages misbehavior, so too bad, so sad on the Phelps clan.”
Ahh, blaming the victims. How liberal of you!
I’m not right wing, btw.
A Ghost To Most
Thank you, geg6 and Ruckus. Sometimes I feel like a blue cork lost in a red sea.
plaindave
Jesus and the fig tree is covered in “Why I am not a Christian” by Bertrand Russell. Along with the herd of swine and the persuasive demons story.
Russell’s approach is to ask what must a Christian believe. He assumes if one is a Christian, one must believe that Jesus was the best man evah.
He attacks that premise via the figs and pigs, comparing Jesus’ petty anger and concern for demons to the actions of other highly regarded men. Buddha and Socrates have no such questionable incidents recorded about them.
Makes ya think.
gwangung
I don’t approve…but I don’t necessarily condemn very strongly.
Though I wouldnhave appreciated it more if they had just let the air out of the tires…any resulting damage would be due to solely Phelps’ band of idiots.
mai naem
I hope for their sakes the Phelps’ have something set up to avoid further slashing of the tires’ episodes because I guarantee you this is going to happen. I don’t like the slashing of tires but sometimes that’s what it takes.
dopey-o
well, i for one don’t condone slashing tires. it’s been done before.
how about half a dozen beefy liberals to pick up the rear of the vehicle, stack up several concrete blocks, and then repeat at the front of the vehicle? now it looks like a monster
truckminivan!4 or 5 well-parked autos could make the WB’s retreat an hours-long ordeal. of course, bystanders with video cameras could insure no parked vehicles were damaged. lawyers, too.
it’s important to match WB’s level of obnoxiousness, and let them understand that as they sew, so shall they reap. they haven’t paid any price for their behavior until now, and no one but WB can moderate their behavior.
Geeno
@The Other Chuck:
I would personally like to see the entire Phelps family hung by piano wire from lamp posts. (This comment was deliberately left for nut picking purposes)
Mnemosyne
@dopey-o:
I really love that idea. It sends the same “Drop dead” message without the property damage.
Tim
Please. This is Oklahoma. If the Phelps psychos had been protesting the funeral of an AIDS victim, believe me, there would have been no counter-demonstrations. Morons in OK only turn out to cheer on endless wars and the people who come back in coffins as a result.
fuck them.
Jay
I think Jim Inhofe would be on the side of the WBCers.
gwangung
@Mnemosyne: Me, too.
asiangrrlMN
@Mnemosyne: Me, three. I’m not outraged by the damage to the tires of the van, mostly because I’m just so fucking tired of them, but I like this approach better. Interference without actually touching their property. Plus, the frat boys who did the impromptu dance in counter-protest. This never gets old.
Mnemosyne
@gwangung:
@asiangrrlMN:
Plus you get to keep the motif of the townspeople refusing to assist them. It’s win/win!
tkogrumpy
@freelancer: Or even a smaller asshole.
The Populist
@Alan:
And who said I was liberal…and I am an independent. Nice try.
The Populist
@Alan:
And the liberal in me says fair enough. I wasn’t hating on your opinion. To offer a counterpoint, if we are a land of laws (we were once) then why is it okay for the Supremes to take established judicial precedence and throw it out the window in the name of activism?
Wanna debate? Fine, but stay away from tags. Notice how I never called you conservative?
Nancy Irving
When Fred Phelps dies I’m gonna be out at his funeral banging on pots and pans!
slightly_peeved
So I can call all Americans assholes now?
Sorry, that’s just an excuse to be intellectually lazy. I’ll stick with calling assholes assholes regardless of whatever other labels can be applied to them. It’s not really that much effort to work them out.
brantl
@The Moar You Know: Who will they sue. Anybody can refuse them service as a private individual, as long as it’s not based on anything bigoted. They don’t know who slashed the tires. Can you sue a bunch of individual business for not being willing to fix your tires? I really doubt it.
twiffer
@Jordan: politics aside, protesting funerals is fucking evil. whatever you believe, let people have peace for grieving. it’s beyond a political disagreement; it’s a conflict of basic moral principles. a mere slashing of tires is going easy on these soulless fuckers.
Original Lee
Yesterday, La Plata, MD showed how to handle Westboro with class. Attendees say Westboro never got near the church because all the access roads were lined 5-10 deep with people waving flags and wearing T-shirts honoring Terry Honeycutt.
Also, Longmont, CO, a couple of years ago rallied their Veteran Bikers, who protected a military funeral with their vehicles and flags.
So it possible.
CircleSquared
@MikeJ: There’s nothing admirable in spectating while bullies go in action. And there is absolutely no excuse for shrugging it off as “gee, I just can’t tolerate the idea of getting involved.” Gay teens commit suicide, gay men are dragged behind cars, and families burying honorable people who saw service for the country can’t do it in peace.
Substitute “person of color” for “gay.”
What these people do is harassment with intent to provoke hostilities for the purpose of extortion.
When they tried to come to the high school near our church, the school and the city council bestirred themselves and wrapped so much red tape around it that they went somewhere else.
Frankly I think the townspeople did it just right: not too little, not too much.
Pyora
Well, WBC has stepped it up, they are now retaliating against the people of McAlester by targeting children’s funerals in the state of Oklahoma.
http://www.ktul.com/Global/story.asp?S=13520403
oufan84
I actually lived in mcalester my whole life and went to highschool with the soldier that died. Anyone that thinks that the tire slashing was wrong its what they deserved. They need to vanish from america they need to be dropped in iraq or the middle east and make them live their because they hate america fuck their cult. I don’t even consider them a church. Fuck the ppl that think the tire slashing was wrong because they deserved this. They are protesting baby funerals what the fuck is wrong with this cult. I hope someone makes them vanish for good. I’m proud to say I’m from mcalester and I’m glad what the ppl did to their van..