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You are here: Home / Foreign Affairs / War / Cuz It’s One, Two, Three, What Are We Fighting For

Cuz It’s One, Two, Three, What Are We Fighting For

by John Cole|  November 19, 20107:50 pm| 96 Comments

This post is in: War

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If you aren’t drinking already, you might want to start:

Afghans in two crucial southern provinces are almost completely unaware of the September 11 attacks on the United States and don’t know they precipitated the foreign intervention now in its 10th year, a new report showed on Friday…

Few Afghans in Helmand and Kandahar provinces, Taliban strongholds where fighting remains fiercest, know why foreign troops are in Afghanistan, says the “Afghanistan Transition: Missing Variables” report to be released later on Friday.

The report by The International Council on Security and Development (ICOS) policy think-tank showed 92 percent of 1,000 Afghan men surveyed in Helmand and Kandahar know nothing of the hijacked airliner attacks on U.S. targets in 2001.

I’m reasonably sure this is nothing that can’t be fixed by heavy armor (seriously, has no one at the Pentagon watched the Beast?), some more drone strikes, and some friendly meet and greets with the local government.

PULL. OUT. NOW.

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Reader Interactions

96Comments

  1. 1.

    El Cid

    November 19, 2010 at 7:54 pm

    I wonder what the awareness would be of the existence of a national government now led by Hamid Karzai in Kabul?

  2. 2.

    WyldPirate

    November 19, 2010 at 7:56 pm

    John Cole sez:

    PULL. OUT. NOW

    But, but, but….weren’t you paying attention during the campaign, John? Obama campaigned on escalating in Afghanistan? Why did you vote for him?

    Why do you hate Preznit Obama, John? Whyyyy? Why do you insist upon tearing the Democratic Party apart, John?
    /snark off

    Now maybe some moron from the Obot apologist crowd will come along and tell us why some Afghanis need a J-DAM to blow up their wedding party for having the temerity to fire off an AK into the air instead of following proper Western wedding reception etiquette.

    edited to add that “The Beast” is a kick ass war movie.

  3. 3.

    DFS

    November 19, 2010 at 7:57 pm

    Don’t ask me, I don’t give a damn
    Next stop, Afghanistan

    See, it even scans neatly…

  4. 4.

    phillip anderson

    November 19, 2010 at 7:57 pm

    Jeezus H Christ on a goddamn tricycle….

  5. 5.

    Mojotron

    November 19, 2010 at 8:02 pm

    Huh, I just assumed they heard about it here.

  6. 6.

    mellowjohn

    November 19, 2010 at 8:02 pm

    damn, dfs, ya beat me to it.
    oh well, i’ll just have to continue…
    “come on generals, let’s move fast,
    your big chance is here at last.
    you know that peace can only be won
    when be blow ’em all to kingdom come!”

  7. 7.

    The Dangerman

    November 19, 2010 at 8:04 pm

    How many nanoseconds from pullout to a Republican calling Obama soft on terrorism?

  8. 8.

    General Stuck

    November 19, 2010 at 8:04 pm

    seriously, has no one at the Pentagon watched the Beast?)

    No shit, George Dzundza got his bones picked by fair Afghan maidens. They could also read a little Kipling to relax before bedtime.

    When you’re wounded and left on Afghanistan’s plains,
    And the women come out to cut up what remains,
    Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains

  9. 9.

    lamh32

    November 19, 2010 at 8:06 pm

    PULL. OUT. NOW.

    That’s what SHE said….ba-duh, dum.

    No seriously. I agree.

  10. 10.

    frogspawn

    November 19, 2010 at 8:07 pm

    They’ve had stupid foreigners invading them for a couple centuries now (if not longer); why would they even want to know what it’s about this time?

  11. 11.

    rageahol

    November 19, 2010 at 8:08 pm

    well, when the current life expectancy (at a historical high) is at 44 years for males….

    how well do you think people in tribal areas remember events of 10 years ago without access to a historical record like we have in wealthier countries?

  12. 12.

    Linda Featheringill

    November 19, 2010 at 8:08 pm

    @phillip anderson:

    Jeezus H Christ on a goddamn tricycle….

    Yeah.

  13. 13.

    NR

    November 19, 2010 at 8:08 pm

    @WyldPirate: Don’t be silly. It’s not like Obama can do anything. Everyone knows there aren’t 60 votes in the Senate for pulling out of Afghanistan.

  14. 14.

    Morbo

    November 19, 2010 at 8:09 pm

    I read some time this week that some high ranking member of the security forces in Afghanistan said that there were no more of al Qaeda left in the country, will Google to make sure I didn’t imagine that. Panetta himself said there were 50-100 in June. We’re using a hatchet to swat a fly.

  15. 15.

    Corner Stone

    November 19, 2010 at 8:13 pm

    showed 92 percent of 1,000 Afghan men surveyed in Helmand and Kandahar know nothing of the hijacked airliner attacks on U.S. targets in 2001

    I’m wondering how this is relevant? Do you think if they knew about 9/11 they’d look at Western invaders killing their friends and family and just shrug their shoulders?

  16. 16.

    General Stuck

    November 19, 2010 at 8:14 pm

    For the site rebuild, I want to suggest an idiot filter be installed, but let me through the door before you turn in on.

    thanx

  17. 17.

    celticdragonchick

    November 19, 2010 at 8:16 pm

    Damn. That is fairly depressing.

    Problem is that when we leave. I give it a year before Al Qaeda is running the country again and we are back to weekly missile strikes and air raids on the fucking training camps.

    The fun will never end in our lifetimes.

  18. 18.

    M. Bouffant

    November 19, 2010 at 8:18 pm

    Christ on a crutch, I remember a picture from 2002 or so, wherein an American soldier invading Afghanistan was showing a copy of Time or Newsweek w/ the towers collapsing on the cover to an invaded Afghan, who (No matter how exceptional America is!) had had no idea what had caused this latest incursion before seeing the pictures in the rag.

    Good to know Karen Hughes & her “public diplomacy” group at the State Department did such a great job getting the word out over the last eight yrs.

    It never fails to astound me how pig-ignorant Americans (especially, & worst, those in power) can be about any other part or peoples of our poor little planet.

  19. 19.

    Hunter Gathers

    November 19, 2010 at 8:19 pm

    So what’s the timetable on Petreaus pulling a Good Soldier Stanely and rat fucking Obama over the scheduled draw down next year?

  20. 20.

    Restrung

    November 19, 2010 at 8:19 pm

    omfg

  21. 21.

    Kevin

    November 19, 2010 at 8:19 pm

    This isn’t relevant, but I emailed John a link to a cats vs. dogs site that I thought BJuice readers would like. I don’t know when John reads his email or whether he’d agree with me that this is amusing; so I’m putting in the link for any animal lovers to check out.

    http://www.thepoke.co.uk/index.php/2010/11/16/cats-vs-dogs/

  22. 22.

    The Dangerman

    November 19, 2010 at 8:20 pm

    Problem is that when we leave. I give it a year before Al Qaeda is running the country again and we are back to weekly missile strikes and air raids on the fucking training camps.

    True, sadly.

    The bigger problem now, and has been for a while, is that the hotpoint is the tribal areas of Pakistan.

    A mess of the highest order.

  23. 23.

    celticdragonchick

    November 19, 2010 at 8:22 pm

    @Morbo:

    That is because the AQ cadre is camped out with their Pushtun pals in Pakistan and maybe near that little border segment with China.

    We have no good options.

    We can stay and fight with people who have no earthly idea why we are even there to begin with and think we are trying to eradicate their religion, while we are propping up a preposterously corrupt government (Kharzai’s brother is one of the biggest druglords on the Asian continent…)

    Or…

    We can take our ball, go home and watch the fun as the country devolves into Hobbesian chaos again and the Taliban and AQ set up shop for another go at Jihad against us and Europe.

    I need some Scotch.

  24. 24.

    Amanda in the South Bay

    November 19, 2010 at 8:24 pm

    Apropos of nothing, but isn’t southern Afghanistan pretty flat, i.e. good tank country? Anyhoo I think our mission there is pretty fucked regardless.

  25. 25.

    Dennis SGMM

    November 19, 2010 at 8:25 pm

    I’m reasonably sure this is nothing that can’t be fixed by heavy armor…

    It’s like the people in charge of this clusterfuck were born this morning. Have they no idea that the fathers and grandfathers of the insurgents learned how to deal with main battle tanks decades ago? That was even before easily fabricated explosively formed penetrators. As long as they’re at it why don’t they being out siege guns and equip the troops with halberds?

  26. 26.

    Allan

    November 19, 2010 at 8:27 pm

    Sounds like we need to give everyone in Afghanistan a satellite dish tuned to Fox News so they’ll know why they need to die.

  27. 27.

    celticdragonchick

    November 19, 2010 at 8:29 pm

    @M. Bouffant:

    It never fails to astound me how pig-ignorant Americans (especially, & worst, those in power) can be about any other part or peoples of our poor little planet.

    You could say the same for 98% of the people on the planet. It is not a uniquely American problem, although it is fashionable in some quarters to imagine that America holds some sort of monopoly on human fallacy.

    Human nature and human ignorance are unchanging throughout history, and I do not expect any group of people to break that cycle any time soon.

  28. 28.

    General Stuck

    November 19, 2010 at 8:29 pm

    It is a big conundrum for sure, but I do not see where playing whack a mole with the Taliban is doing anything but propping up the Al Capone of Kabul, and getting civilians and GI’s killed in the process. And bringing tanks in will just remind those 12th century souls of the Soviets and the quasi genocide they conducted there, before we gave them Stingers and turned that around.

    Very stupid seems to me. But we can’t completely leave and let OBL have his way to export trained killers onto the world either.

  29. 29.

    MobiusKlein

    November 19, 2010 at 8:30 pm

    Fuck Yeah.

  30. 30.

    celticdragonchick

    November 19, 2010 at 8:31 pm

    @Amanda in the South Bay:

    Apropos of nothing, but isn’t southern Afghanistan pretty flat, i.e. good tank country?

    Yeah, it is. I think that is why heavy armour is being limited to that area. Tanks are of little use in the mountain areas.

  31. 31.

    celticdragonchick

    November 19, 2010 at 8:35 pm

    @Allan:

    Sounds like we need to give everyone in Afghanistan a satellite dish tuned to Fox News so they’ll know why they need to die donate to Jim DeMint and the AFA etc to keep teh homos from marrying their kidz and that they will win the Mooslim War against us if a Mosque is built somewhere in New York.

    That, and that they also need Viagra, and you can build something together with Home Depot.

  32. 32.

    The Grand Panjandrum

    November 19, 2010 at 8:37 pm

    Oh goody. Bigger guns to kill the gnats.

    OT: A new law that would allow the gummint to censor the internet without due process:

    On Thursday, the Senate Judiciary Committee unanimously approved a bill that would give the Attorney General the right to shut down websites with a court order if copyright infringement is deemed “central to the activity” of the site — regardless if the website has actually committed a crime. The Combating Online Infringement and Counterfeits Act (COICA) is among the most draconian laws ever considered to combat digital piracy, and contains what some have called the “nuclear option,” which would essentially allow the Attorney General to turn suspected websites “off.”

    Oh goody. Bigger guns to kill digital media pirates and anyone else the AG decides to turn “off”.

  33. 33.

    tkogrumpy

    November 19, 2010 at 8:37 pm

    I don’t have to pull out now, I have a vasectomy

  34. 34.

    And Another Thing...

    November 19, 2010 at 8:38 pm

    @Dennis SGMM: American Exceptionalism baby…we CAN DO ANYTHING!! …or we could clap louder…same principle.

  35. 35.

    celticdragonchick

    November 19, 2010 at 8:38 pm

    @efgoldman:

    A hundred years from now, when we’re all dead, I surely hope the history books treat GWB as kindly as they do Buchanan and Harding. He and his legacy certainly deserve it.

    Buchanan and Harding did not do the kind of damage to this country that Bush, Cheney, Rummy, Addington and Co. have done. We will not really appreciate the full scope of it for thirty years or more, I think. It is really that serious.

  36. 36.

    Dennis SGMM

    November 19, 2010 at 8:39 pm

    @General Stuck:

    But we can’t completely leave and let OBL have his way to export trained killers onto the world either.

    Right, as if trained killers can only be generated in AF-PAK rather than anywhere else.

  37. 37.

    Bruce (formerly Steve S.)

    November 19, 2010 at 8:41 pm

    PULL. OUT. NOW.

    This would have been outstanding advice for Todd Palin a couple of decades ago, but in reference to Afghanistan it will be completely ignored. Consider that by the time a majority of the country felt this way about Vietnam, with massive protests and some segments of the population ungovernable, it was a mere half dozen years before the U.S. finally did pull out.

  38. 38.

    Jim Newell

    November 19, 2010 at 8:41 pm

    But there are more women to liberate, sexist John Cole. The tanks will liberate more women.

  39. 39.

    General Stuck

    November 19, 2010 at 8:42 pm

    @The Grand Panjandrum:

    Oregon Senator Wyden effectively kills Internet censorship bill

    I guess by pocket veto (hold), at least that is what Rawstory is reporting. I do seriously doubt this would ever become law. In Great Britain maybe, but not here. But who knows these days?

  40. 40.

    celticdragonchick

    November 19, 2010 at 8:44 pm

    @efgoldman:

    A small bunch of widely-spaced guerrillas with hand-held IEDs and anti-tank weapons, who can easily melt back into the landscape? Not so much.

    True. Armour will help if they are stupid enough to shoot from those mud brick forts they have had around for the last thousand years, but I think they will mainly just be a perk for moving faster over rough terrain without the liability of wheeled vehicles. I doubt that the gunners will get to use those 120 smoothbores all that often. They had better get used to cleaning the machine guns because that is what they will be using.

  41. 41.

    Mark S.

    November 19, 2010 at 8:44 pm

    I wouldn’t equate AQ with the Taliban. They are both loathsome, for sure, but they have different goals and methods. From what I’ve read, Omar was a little pissed at Osama for shitting up his Islamic utopia.

    It’s not a great choice, but we might need to look into cutting a deal with the Taliban, with the understanding that AQ is not to have a safe haven in Afghanistan. Hell, our boy Karzai has threatened on more than one occasion to join the fucking Taliban; he knows who’s going to win in the end.

    The whole thing sucks.

  42. 42.

    celticdragonchick

    November 19, 2010 at 8:46 pm

    @Dennis SGMM:

    Right, as if trained killers can only be generated in AF-PAK rather than anywhere else.

    There are few areas where the trained killers can train in the open and with government support they way they did in Afghanistan. I imagine that AQ will try to get that type of arrangement back up asap, albeit with better hidden camps.

  43. 43.

    Corner Stone

    November 19, 2010 at 8:47 pm

    So when will we roll in the Mi-24 Hind?
    I mean that’s next, right tovarisch?

  44. 44.

    General Stuck

    November 19, 2010 at 8:47 pm

    @Dennis SGMM:

    Right, as if trained killers can only be generated in AF-PAK rather than anywhere else.

    This a pedantic sideswipe, or a serious point? I mean terrorist factories, like what was there before, in the open and numerous. If that’s okay with you, then fine. It is not okay with me.

  45. 45.

    J. Michael Neal

    November 19, 2010 at 8:49 pm

    @tkogrumpy: I don’t have to pull out, either. I never have a chance to push in in the first place.

  46. 46.

    celticdragonchick

    November 19, 2010 at 8:51 pm

    @Mark S.:

    I wouldn’t equate AQ with the Taliban. They are both loathsome, for sure, but they have different goals and methods.

    Not so much. At the time of 9/11, they had merged to the point that distinctions were useless except that AQ was mostly Arabic (with some Chechnyans and other foreign fighters) and the Taliban were mostly Pushtun. AQ was running the military operations in Afghanistan, and running all the training for domestic and foreign operations.

    They have separated now, but I do not believe that would last. AQ brings money, weapons and volunteers to the table, and the Taliban know it.

  47. 47.

    celticdragonchick

    November 19, 2010 at 8:54 pm

    @Corner Stone:

    So when will we roll in the Mi-24 Hind?

    Those are some nasty birds.

    I would not like to be on the wrong side of a Hind-E.

  48. 48.

    celticdragonchick

    November 19, 2010 at 8:55 pm

    @efgoldman:

    Heh!

    I don’t know why I do that. I play a Brit game called Warhammer 40,000, where all the spellings are like that and I may have just picked it up from constant exposure.

  49. 49.

    mellowjohn

    November 19, 2010 at 8:57 pm

    @frogspawn:
    MUCH longer. if no one else has, i recommend stephen pressfield’s “the afghan campaign.”

  50. 50.

    Mike G

    November 19, 2010 at 8:58 pm

    Afghans in two crucial southern provinces are almost completely unaware of the September 11 attacks

    We may finally have found some people more ill-informed than teabaggers. Although they have the excuse of being illiterate with no radio or TV access, while teatards actually choose to be stupid and proud of it.

  51. 51.

    R-Jud

    November 19, 2010 at 8:59 pm

    @efgoldman: Heh. I’ve lived in the UK five years and don’t do that. Or maybe I have and just don’t realise i– crap.

  52. 52.

    numbskull

    November 19, 2010 at 9:01 pm

    Well, it’ll all work out now that we’re going to have complete Missile Defense Systems for all NATO nations. ‘Cause “It responds to the threats of our times,” says Prezdint O.

    I swear, some days I really, really can’t stand Obama. What a fucking idiot. No doubt we’ll be safe from box cutters delivered by ICBM. Fucking idiot. It’s not bad enough that he’s not doing shit about the real problems, NOOOOOOO, he’s gotta ENCOURAGE the fuck-ups.

    Please, Obots, spin me how this makes sense. I wanna buh-leeve, but it’s so hard…

  53. 53.

    freelancer

    November 19, 2010 at 9:01 pm

    @R-Jud:

    I’m sceptical of your claim.

  54. 54.

    The Republic of Stupidity

    November 19, 2010 at 9:02 pm

    @celticdragonchick:

    Tanks are of little use in the mountain areas.

    I believe it was Colin Powell himself who said ‘We (the US Army) don’t do mountains…’…

  55. 55.

    Morbo

    November 19, 2010 at 9:07 pm

    @Dennis SGMM: Yes, well… in my search for the news article I thought I’d read, mostly what I found were articles suggesting we need to invade Yemen for that very purpose. More alcohol please.

  56. 56.

    Corner Stone

    November 19, 2010 at 9:08 pm

    @numbskull: “We need 1,000 laser systems put in the sky and we need it right now. That is of paramount importance.”
    Failed WV Senate candidate John Raese, or…

  57. 57.

    Dennis SGMM

    November 19, 2010 at 9:09 pm

    @General Stuck:
    No, it isn’t a pedantic sideswipe, you ass. I actually served in a counter insurgency war and my service included training. The resources required to train really devastating and effective individual killers needn’t show up on anyone’s satellite view of the terrain. We aren’t being fucked with because one attack made us fuck with ourselves beyond the ability of any terrorist organization to do so.

  58. 58.

    celticdragonchick

    November 19, 2010 at 9:10 pm

    @The Republic of Stupidity:

    Mountains are tough, nasty places to fight in. Read about the “avalanche war” in WW I that took place in the Austrio-Italian Alps. Artillery on both sides were used to start devastating avalanches onto the hapless troops of the other side. 60,000 soldiers were buried alive and smothered or crushed.

    Bad stuff.

  59. 59.

    Punchy

    November 19, 2010 at 9:12 pm

    In related news, I’m heading off to the best bluegrass band in the nation (Mountain Sprout) and their ‘kick, Fast Food Junkies. I shall get my cracker dance on like nobuddeh’s biznatch.

    P +4

  60. 60.

    celticdragonchick

    November 19, 2010 at 9:14 pm

    @Dennis SGMM:

    As I tried to point out, Afghanistan was one of the very few places on earth where AQ could train thousands of recruits openly and with support from the governing body of the country. I suspect they will try to get that situation re-instated.

  61. 61.

    stickler

    November 19, 2010 at 9:17 pm

    Heh.

    So when will we roll in the Mi-24 Hind?
    I mean that’s next, right tovarisch?

    You just know that there are a lot of ex-Soviet officers who are watching our current predicament with (whatever the Russian equivalent of Schadenfreude might be). And I bet that some of them are glancing over at their massive stocks of shoulder-fired SAMs and thinking about how many Hinds our Stingers took out in the 1980s.

    Fortunately, of course, we have things well in hand in Afghanistan, and Vladimir Putin is an honorable and altruistic man.

  62. 62.

    celticdragonchick

    November 19, 2010 at 9:20 pm

    @celticdragonchick:

    BTW…the author in this piece I linked to does not believe that artillery was used to set off avalanches and perhaps he is correct, although I had come across claims that it was done deliberately in other sources.

  63. 63.

    General Stuck

    November 19, 2010 at 9:24 pm

    @Dennis SGMM:

    We aren’t being fucked with because one attack made us fuck with ourselves beyond the ability of any terrorist organization to do so.

    Of course it did, and Iraq is the leading example of this, and all the other shit George Bush brought us, like torture, etc…..

    And completely botching what was a legitimate mission in Afghanistan. You picked out the last statement of my comment to run with. I agree we are doing it wrong in Afghan., and need to end the ground war there. Likely should have ended a long time ago.

    The rest of your reasoning is existential hogwash, somehow relating the Vietnam experience to AQ and terrorism of today. Yes, lots of killers get trained around the world, but the ones in Afghanistan came here to visit their violence, And our only legitimate purpose there is to prevent that from happening again, if we can. And allowing OBL to set up shop like before is something I don’t support. As I don’t support a stupid ground war against the Taliban that is occurring now. There are other, less stupid, and lethal to civilians ways to protect ourselves. Unless you just think we deserve what we get.

    Maybe you should have stayed at FDL?

  64. 64.

    Davis X. Machina

    November 19, 2010 at 9:25 pm

    Obama’s just fighting them over there so he doesn’t have to fight them here.

    Coup-coup-kachoo.

  65. 65.

    celticdragonchick

    November 19, 2010 at 9:26 pm

    @stickler:

    You just know that there are a lot of ex-Soviet officers who are watching our current predicament with (whatever the Russian equivalent of Schadenfreude might be). And I bet that some of them are glancing over at their massive stocks of shoulder-fired SAMs and thinking about how many Hinds our Stingers took out in the 1980s.

    I’ve heard that Spetnaz officers actually went back into Afghanistan in early 2001 and 2002 with our Spec Op guys. No way to verify that, but I assume Bush got Putin to send some experienced talent in with our guys. I would bet there were still some hard feelings about the Stingers…but plenty of SA-2 Guideline missiles (with Russian techs) shot down F-105 Thuds in ‘Nam.

    It was all part of “The Great Game” at the time.

  66. 66.

    Linda Featheringill

    November 19, 2010 at 9:30 pm

    @Kevin:

    That is cute. Much plotting going on this house, I’ll tell you!

    :-)

  67. 67.

    mellowjohn

    November 19, 2010 at 9:32 pm

    @celticdragonchick:
    several years ago, outside magazine had an excellent piece about the undeclared war india and pakistan have been waging a few hundred miles to the east. way up in the Himalayas and just beastly.

  68. 68.

    M. Bouffant

    November 19, 2010 at 9:35 pm

    @celticdragonchick:
    Well, I almost typed Western Euro colonialists, but as a Yankee I figured I should only complain about what I know.

    If only the 2% w/ half a brain were running things.

  69. 69.

    Linda Featheringill

    November 19, 2010 at 9:36 pm

    @Punchy:

    Mountain Sprout.

    I went to youtube and gave a listen. They are good.

    So I added them to my bluegrass channel on Pandora.

    Thanks for the recommendation!

  70. 70.

    WyldPirate

    November 19, 2010 at 9:41 pm

    @Dennis SGMM:

    Right, as if trained killers can only be generated in AF-PAK rather than anywhere else.

    This, a million times over. Terrorists can be trained in the middle of crowded slums or in warehouses. This is why intelligence and defensive counterterrorism measures are far more effective than large troop concentrations.

    This is why what we are doing in Afghanistan is so fucking stupid and wasteful. We are doing nothing more than what someone said upthread–propping up the Afghan version of Al Capone in Karzai, As soon as we are gone, it reverts back to lawlessness and chaos.

  71. 71.

    celticdragonchick

    November 19, 2010 at 9:43 pm

    @M. Bouffant:

    If only the 2% w/ half a brain were running things.

    LOL.

    Yeah, I know.

    I’m not sure which is ahead for me right now…cynicism or despair.

  72. 72.

    celticdragonchick

    November 19, 2010 at 9:51 pm

    @WyldPirate:

    This, a million times over. Terrorists can be trained in the middle of crowded slums or in warehouses.

    With prying eyes and ears to report them? In cities located in countries with unfriendly governments? Not really. There is a reason why terrorist operations in cities move in small cells that don’t know what the others are doing…and that is because operational security or OPSEC can bite you in the arse.

    This is why intelligence and defensive counterterrorism measures are far more effective than large troop concentrations.

    What defensive measures would those be? Reactive responses to terrorist activities means that they have initiative…which you do not concede at all if you can help it. The idea is to keep them reacting to you and off balance…not the other way around.

    This is why what we are doing in Afghanistan is so fucking stupid and wasteful. We are doing nothing more than what someone said upthread—propping up the Afghan version of Al Capone in Karzai, As soon as we are gone, it reverts back to lawlessness and chaos.

    That was me, actually. I really don’t know what the answer is in this case, because I think the consequences of anything we do at this point will be dire.

    Heckuva job, Bush.

  73. 73.

    edwin

    November 19, 2010 at 9:52 pm

    No one else is seems to be hungry. Well I’ll bite.

    Few Afghans in Helmand and Kandahar provinces, Taliban strongholds where fighting remains fiercest, know why foreign troops are in Afghanistan,

    So why are Americans in Afghanistan?

    Saturday, November 6, 2010
    Noam Chomsky: U.S. invasion of Afghanistan was illegal since to date there is no evidence that al-Qaeda has carried out the 9/11 attacks.
    “The explicit and declared motive of the [Afghanistan] war was to compel the Taliban to turn over to the United States, the people who they accused of having been involved in World Trade Center and Pentagon terrorist acts. The Taliban…they requested evidence…and the Bush administration refused to provide any,” the 81-year-old senior academic made the remarks on Press TV’s program a Simple Question.
    “We later discovered one of the reasons why they did not bring evidence: they did not have any.”
    The political analyst also said that nonexistence of such evidence was confirmed by FBI eight months later.

    http://angryarabscommentsection.blogspot.com/2010/11/noam-chomsky-us-invasion-of-afghanistan.html

  74. 74.

    Davis X. Machina

    November 19, 2010 at 9:53 pm

    With prying eyes and ears to report them? In cities located in countries with unfriendly governments? Not really.

    Belfast. Canary Wharf. Impossible without a failed state to operate from.

  75. 75.

    celticdragonchick

    November 19, 2010 at 9:55 pm

    @edwin:

    We have a troofer.

    Maybe we need a new sort of Godwin tag rule for this sort of thing.

  76. 76.

    celticdragonchick

    November 19, 2010 at 9:58 pm

    @Davis X. Machina:

    The PIRA did a lot of their training in Libya (Gadiffi was happy to provide camps, ammunition and weapons to “liberation movements” of whatever stripe…but he was an old school Pan Arab socialist), if I recall correctly. They recruited fairly liberally in the North of course, and they got sloppy about it which lead to substantial infiltration by MI5.

  77. 77.

    WyldPirate

    November 19, 2010 at 9:59 pm

    @Dennis SGMM:

    We aren’t being fucked with because one attack made us fuck with ourselves beyond the ability of any terrorist organization to do so.

    Fucking bravo, Dennis.

    I don’t know why some of the thickheaded Obot apologists don’t seem to get this simple point.

    Not only that, OBL, had this as one of his stated aims–to throw us into such a panic that we ruin ourselves economically. Damn near doubling our already grotesque DoD spending has done a pretty good job at achieving that goal for OBL and AQ.

  78. 78.

    celticdragonchick

    November 19, 2010 at 9:59 pm

    @Davis X. Machina:

    My reply is stuck in moderation. Sorry. :(

  79. 79.

    edwin

    November 19, 2010 at 10:05 pm

    @celticdragonchick:

    Is Noam Chomsky a flake?

  80. 80.

    celticdragonchick

    November 19, 2010 at 10:07 pm

    Have a great Friday evening everybody. My spouse and kid are at the movies watching Harry Potter, and I’m going downstairs to paint some overpriced wargame figures.

  81. 81.

    celticdragonchick

    November 19, 2010 at 10:09 pm

    @edwin:

    Is Noam Chomsky a flake?

    Appeal to authority is a fallacy of defective induction, where it is argued that a statement is correct because the statement is made by a person or source that is commonly regarded as authoritative. The most general structure of this argument is:

    1. Source A says that p is true.
    2. Source A is authoritative.
    3. Therefore, p is true.

    This is a fallacy because the truth or falsity of the claim is not necessarily related to the personal qualities of the claimant, and because the premises can be true, and the conclusion false (an authoritative claim can turn out to be false). It is also known as argumentum ad verecundiam (Latin: argument to respect) or ipse dixit (Latin: he himself said it).

  82. 82.

    Svensker

    November 19, 2010 at 10:13 pm

    @celticdragonchick:

    You could say the same for 98% of the people on the planet. It is not a uniquely American problem, although it is fashionable in some quarters to imagine that America holds some sort of monopoly on human fallacy.

    We don’t hold a patent on ignorance, but we sure are way out ahead of everyone else on blowing other folks up for no good reason except our ignorance.

  83. 83.

    Suffern ACE

    November 19, 2010 at 10:15 pm

    Poll doesn’t surprise me at all. They don’t have a clue why we’re over there and many over here hadn’t a clue why they might have come over here with nefarious plots to blow up buildings, or embassies in Kenya, or nightclubs in Borneo. Its been going on for almost a decade and a half now. We’ve been talking about it seriously now since 2001…I still don’t know how confidently I’d answer a survey question as to their motivation either.

  84. 84.

    WyldPirate

    November 19, 2010 at 10:16 pm

    @celticdragonchick:

    With prying eyes and ears to report them? In cities located in countries with unfriendly governments? Not really.

    Yes. The IRA, PLO, Hamas, et al are/were masterful at this.

    What defensive measures would those be? Reactive responses to terrorist activities means that they have initiative…which you do not concede at all if you can help it. The idea is to keep them reacting to you and off balance…not the other way around.

    Good intelligence allows a government to use defensive counterterrorism measures.

    We had good intelligence on OBL and had the opportunity to blow his ass off the map. We have thwarted planned attacks. That is what good “defensive” counterterrorism measures are.

    I don’t know why I’m even responding to someone who stupidly suggests that the US military fucking up Afghanis shooting in the air in celebration get what they deserve. That sort of person clearly doesn’t have a grasp of what is going on in Afghanistan, how fucking stupid and wasteful it is and what a proper counterterrorism response is.

    Funny how you’ve changed your tune to “reasonableness” in a thread that the blog host starts with exceedingly valid criticism instead of being your normal, knee-jerk Obot-supporting self and attacking anyone that dares criticize stupid policy when it comes from a Democrat.

  85. 85.

    Uncle Clarence Thomas

    November 19, 2010 at 10:27 pm

    .
    .
    I don’t understand why you don’t trust President Obama’s word that we’re pulling out next year. The man doesn’t have a dishonest bone in his body.
    .
    .

  86. 86.

    edwin

    November 19, 2010 at 10:27 pm

    @celticdragonchick:

    Interestinly enough, I asked

    Is Noam Chomsky a flake?

    Now, quoting people who are recognized as authorities in their field is no fallacy. Noam Chomsky is well known for his political study and has published several books on the topic of US adventures. He has enough stature that he made it onto Nixon’s enemies list.

    If you wish to argue with what Noam Chomsky has said – fine and good. It doesn’t have to be true because Chomsky said it. It does become something that is reasonable to consider – unless you believe that Chomsky is a flake.

    Do you have some proof that dates before the US invasion that Bin Laden was involved in the world trade centre bombings? After the invasion does not count.

  87. 87.

    petorado

    November 19, 2010 at 11:01 pm

    Groovy. And to think there are now teenagers in Afghanistan who have known nothing in their lives other than foreign occupation/ intervention. I wonder what the Pashto word for “Wolverines” is?

  88. 88.

    celticdragonchick

    November 19, 2010 at 11:19 pm

    @Svensker:

    We don’t hold a patent on ignorance, but we sure are way out ahead of everyone else on blowing other folks up for no good reason except our ignorance.

    Maybe, but the Romans, British etc have a hell of a head start on us. We are just the latest, and we will not be the last.

  89. 89.

    celticdragonchick

    November 19, 2010 at 11:25 pm

    @WyldPirate:

    Yes. The IRA, PLO, Hamas, et al are/were masterful at this.

    As I said, the PIRA trained in Libya. Hamas, Hizbollah etc have access to friendly areas that are not under Israeli control that they can operate in with relative impunity and stockpile weapons. That is what Sudan and then Afghanistan served as for AQ. They have that to some extent in the border tribal areas in Pakistan, but it is under constant surveilance and daily airstrikes which tend to hamper large scale camps etc.

    I have no idea where you got the idea that I am an Obot, since I have been roundly cursed on this site for my constant criticism of Obama relating to GLBT issues.

  90. 90.

    celticdragonchick

    November 19, 2010 at 11:28 pm

    @edwin:

    Do you have some proof that dates before the US invasion that Bin Laden was involved in the world trade centre bombings? After the invasion does not count.

    The troof will come out.

    Arguing with the “Loose Change” crowd is like arguing with Young Earthers. Briefly amusing, but about as productive as teaching your dog to play Pachabel on the cello.

  91. 91.

    WyldPirate

    November 19, 2010 at 11:56 pm

    @celticdragonchick:

    It was something you said this morning about “of my schtick getting old”. I assumed (perhaps wrongly) that you are one of the gang of Obot PC thought police who try to shout anyone down that voices the least bit of criticism about Obama or other Democrats. There’s about a dozen of them that like to try and run people out of the comment section.

    I’ve got no beef with you. Keep on sticking up for yourself and speaking your mind.

  92. 92.

    celticdragonchick

    November 20, 2010 at 12:10 am

    @WyldPirate:

    Fair enough. :)

  93. 93.

    Dollared

    November 20, 2010 at 1:23 am

    Read the entire thread (no, it was not fun, but there is no one else I trust on this issue more than the gang here).

    I have to say, John is right. Out. Now. NOW!

    And for that matter, take all the money saved and spend it in the US. Neatly enough, we can do it in the first year by spending the $50B HAMP funds on HAMP, buying down mortgages and weatherproofing homes, loudly, all over the country, with no need for a House vote. Let the Teabaggers picket people at escrow offices signing papers to keep their houses, that’ll make great local TV coverage.

    CelticDragonChick, General Stuck, I understand your handwringing about the mess we leave behind, the terrorist state stuff, etc, etc., but we got 70% of the worst case risk right now and 100% of a stupid, expensive, counterproductive war that is not a risk, it is a certainty.

    I say we pull out over the next six months, move the 34 warships from Mumbai harbor to just off Karachi, and get out. One more thing:

    It is amazing how foolish Obama has been on this issue, along with all the others. Getting out was always the change we were hoping for.

  94. 94.

    frosty

    November 20, 2010 at 1:57 am

    @DFS: AWOL Rag. Sorry, don’t know the source, writer, etc.

    Come on Publicans across the land
    Toss a pot to Iraqistan
    Come on lobbyists – yer fight too
    Or cough up a son, or a daughter’ll do
    Be the first yer side o’ the street
    To jack a leg in the grinder meat!

    [CHORUS]

    And it’s one, two, three
    What are we fightin’ for?
    Don’t ask me I don’t give a damn
    Next stop Eye-raqistan!
    And it’s five, six, seven
    No! No! Guantanamo Gate!
    Now who started this row?
    All Hat! No Cow!
    Whoopie! We’re all AWOL now!

    [CHORUS]

    Come on Exxon `n’ git yer thrill
    Lay some pipe and send `er the bill!
    Abu grab you, Tex’ state pen
    All the same – it’s `murikin!
    We’ll sell `er soul
    Dilate `er hole
    Tank `er up `n’ watch `er roll!

    [CHORUS]

    Now sorry y’all for the mess we made
    It’s how we figger that poker’s played
    Keep yer stinkin’ Eye-raqi sand
    Don’t you fer’ners understand –
    We’ll all be free
    ‘s `mocracy!
    Now drop that RPG!

  95. 95.

    J sub D

    November 20, 2010 at 11:38 am

    PULL. OUT. NOW.

    NATO says Four more years! Four more years!

    The U.S.-led coalition in Afghanistan formally adopted a transition plan Saturday designed to turn over control of the war to Afghan security forces by 2014 but continue heavy financial and military support for the indefinite future.

    Fuuuuck. Does anyone know what the mission in Afghanistan is and how we will determine it is accomplished?

  96. 96.

    Dollared

    November 20, 2010 at 4:14 pm

    I just want to cry.

    It would have taken a really farseeing, monstrously cynical person to look at Afghanistan and the US in 1990 and say “yeah, well guess what: we’ll go there too and get our asses kicked, just like the Russians.”

    And I would have said “you’re crazy. There’s no way we’d be that stupid!”

    Thank you, president Petraeus.

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