Krugman is especially unreasonable today:
The fact is that one of our two great political parties has made it clear that it has no interest in making America governable, unless it’s doing the governing. And that party now controls one house of Congress, which means that the country will not, in fact, be governable without that party’s cooperation — cooperation that won’t be forthcoming.
Elite opinion has been slow to recognize this reality.[…]
The debt ceiling and START are his examples, and they’re good ones.
PeakVT
Heh. I’m in the middle of writing something referencing that column, and I almost titled the post “Return of the Shrill.” Herbert was pretty shrill the other day, too. Also.
arguingwithsignposts
I think this is the way the phrase was originally typed out, later edited by Broderites to blunt the shrill.
I really wish Obama would lay the smackdown on the GOP over the next two years. And after reading Nancy SMASH!’s interview in the Times Magazine yesterday, I have high hopes that she’ll be doing the same thing. Make Boehner cry, Madame Speaker!
Whee! Bipartisanship.
Balconesfault
Does Alan Simpson represent peak wingnut – in otherwords, is it only when the “serious people” on the right publicly embrace nihilism that we can finally achieve wingularity?
Corner Stone
No mention of his shrill article from 11/21 ?
FDR, Reagan, and Obama
Corner Stone
It still wigs me out to see Major Garrett on MSNBC as a reporter.
Suck It Up!
this thread will be really shrill in a few minutes. how many references to balls are we going to have today?
WyldPirate
He’s not only shrill, he’s downright apocalyptic.
From the link:
Krugman has given up on Obama. Bob Herbert has as well.
arguingwithsignposts
@Corner Stone:
Which explains why you won’t hear a lot of reporters dissing other networks (FOX). It’s a big media circle jerk.
WyldPirate
@arguingwithsignposts:
Na-ganah-happen.
Dennis SGMM
Obama is trying to play n-dimensional chess with people whose opening move is to crap on the chessboard, then storm out of the room and call a press conference where they blame Obama for being uncooperative.
Suck It Up!
The GOP may budge, may, if they are called out by the media AND other Republicans. Otherwise every word out of a Dems mouth will be used as a fundraiser.
FlipYrWhig
@Corner Stone: I don’t think Krugman properly credits–although he must know it–that there are things a president says in public that may well be purely lip service.(1) Krugman always says what he means; it’s one of his great strengths as a polemicist. But there’s another layer to political rhetoric: saying things you don’t really mean, or saying things now so that you can say other things later. That’s the way I see Obama operating vis-a-vis “bipartisanship” and “cooperation” and all that. There’s a place for rhetorical manipulation of that kind. Krugman is an economist and discounts that aspect of the written and spoken word. My dad is a scientist and he’s the same way: there can only be true and false, clear and unclear. But there are other reasons for choosing to communicate as you do.
1 Free shot on Obama lip service! Civil libertarians, take your whacks!
FlipYrWhig
@Dennis SGMM: But why do you think he’s actually trying to play, rather than play-acting at playing while accumulating anecdotes of how frequently they take shits and throw tantrums?
Dennis SGMM
@Suck It Up!:
I’d guess that seeing John Boehner mugged by Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny during a floor speech is a bit more likely than the above.
daveNYC
I’m not sure how you get that from the article. I think that Krugman has given up on the entire federal government. You need the Senate, House, and White House to work together to get things done, and the House isn’t going to do a goddamn thing. It’s currently being run by people who think that driving the federal government out of business (which is roughly what not raising the debt limit would do), and not working to reduce the world’s nuclear stockpiles are good policies.
I’d like to have DADT, DOMA, and a few other things dealt with over the next two years, but we’re going to be lucky to even get a budget passed through the house.
Corner Stone
@FlipYrWhig: At some point one must conclude the things being said are a direct indication of honestly held beliefs.
Corner Stone
The real beauty of the 11-D theory is that it allows the proponent to decide when statements are taken at face value and when statements are a ruse or subterfuge.
The ones that are useful are held up as a shield. The ones that aren’t useful, really are useful, but just not right now. At some point in the future the less than useful statements will be revealed as the gambit they really always were, and all will be set right with the world.
Agoraphobic Kleptomaniac
Krugman is wrong on one point. He says that things are so bad that no compromise and America will fall apart.
The republicans will not compromise, but they will pass stop-gap measures to kick issues down the road a couple years, further keeping us as a constantly stagnant country, as we have been for my entire adult life. Middle class wages will continue to slide, manufacturing jobs will continue to flee the country, and reliance on a free-market economy (while other countries aren’t playing that game) will continue.
I just heard former New Mexico Governer Gary Johnson get up on a local radio station and say the republicans need to repeal Obama-care so we can decrease the deficit. The stupidity abounds and the “facts” that republicans have are not THE facts.
Dennis SGMM
@FlipYrWhig:
I’m having trouble understanding your meaning here. While a large stockpile of anecdotes may be great for Obama’s post-presidential memoirs, it’s going to do just about dick in the short term. Throwing the Republicans’ words and actions back in their faces accomplishes nothing: they’re proud of the crap that they’re pulling.
daveNYC
I don’t know about that. There’s a fair chunk of them that seem to be going for a showdown over the debt limit. That’s a bit of a Rubicon crossing moment if that doesn’t get done.
General Stuck
@FlipYrWhig:
Dennis, Corner, and Wildy, are full frontal anti Obama and want him gone, and they are not the only firebaggers with that motive.. I wouldn’t place a nickels worth in any critique of Obama from them, other than the most negative interpretation that is possible. They want Obama gone, period. Everything they say is in service to that cause.
Agoraphobic Kleptomaniac
@daveNYC: If we get close to the debt ceiling vote and republicans are still not budging, there is going to be a few closed door sessions between republicans and many many many powerful national groups, and suddenly republicans are going to find religion on the issue, much like they did with the bank bailout.
eemom
That is not “shrill” at all — it is understatement. As is this:
Now if he were to point out that “most Americans” are the same too-dumb-to-breathe suckers who just voted en masse to fuck themselves over AGAIN — that might be “shrill.”
Corner Stone
@FlipYrWhig: Honestly, I’d like to see another concern troll front page piece from Dennis G. telling President Obama how he’d really like it if Obama could start framing these talking points from the left, instead of using right wing framing.
jwb
@Dennis SGMM: That’s not the way it works: they won’t blame Obama for being uncooperative; they’ll blame him for having shit on the board. This will then become common wisdom.
Odie Hugh Manatee
Another day of teeth gnashing and rending of garments is, once again, just the way to start the week! Bush had it easy, he only had the left chewing at his ankles. It was easy for him to ignore since it was also ignored by the media because they were too busy giving Bush a tongue bath. Obama has no such luck, he has the right and the crazy left after him and there is no way the media will ignore that. There is no need for the media to suck up to Obama like they did Bush, the left isn’t where the money is at for them.
What really makes me laugh is that the ones on the left who are attacking Obama don’t care if their attacks lead to a return of republican rule. I think they would be much happier with the right back in control and I think they just might get their wish come next election. Of course they will just keep whining, as they have always done. The right forms up a circle and protects themselves from attacks from outside. The left forms up a circle and starts shooting each other.
Want to know why the right gets their way more than the left does? Because they will fight for it more than the left will. They may not all agree with each other but they do walk in lockstep to get things done. They bitch, moan and groan but they are being listened to. They don’t give up and the left does. If the manic progressives don’t get their way they pack it up and head home. The professional left are too busy cashing in on the latest outrage to care about anything but the next outrage.
Outrage addiction, it’s all we got left.
Dennis SGMM
@General Stuck:
You wouldn’t put a nickel’s worth in any critique of Obama. I don’t want Obama gone, I want him to be here now. You can put your fingers in your ears and chant “I can’t hear you!” ’til the cows come home but, that won’t change the fact that Obama, like every president, has done some things that can be criticized by reasonable people.
There will be tears on my pillow over the “firebagger” pejorative though.
The Republic of Stupidity
There… NOW it’s an accurate summation…
General Stuck
@jwb:
by two to one, or thereabouts, indies give Obama the advantage on being open to compromise. Indies like bipartisanship, and Obama mouthing the kumbaya words, while offering very little to the wingnuts, is likely why he still has a 45 plus approval rating that is solid. Independent voters decide elections in this country and have for several decades now. Taking what Obama says without factoring in what he actually does in giving in to winger demands is stupid shallow analysis.
General Stuck
@Dennis SGMM:
You have clearly stated your preference here for Obama to be primaried. That is fine with me, but don’t blow smoke up my ass telling me you just want “Obama to be here”. He is here, and you are somewhere else.
General Stuck
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
THIS, absolutely this. A thousand motherfucking times.
The Republic of Stupidity
@daveNYC:
Uh… this could lead one to believe the GOP thinks it’s actually a good idea to also privatize our nukes… too, also…
Someone, please tell me that’s not true…
jwb
@Corner Stone: No, it’s not what is said that matters. It’s what is done. All the shit Obama’s said about bipartisianship wouldn’t matter in the least if he had a plan for what to do when the other side showed no interest in bargaining. But so far he hasn’t indicated that he has such a plan. At this point, we can only hope that he has recognized the problem and has developed a plan that he is simply not showing (because now is not the time to show the hand). The way the administration has been acting since the election, however, does not give me high hopes that Obama understands the nature of his problem.
General Stuck
@jwb:
You can’t have a plan to deal with people who only have one issue and one mission, and that is to simply destroy your presidency, whatever it takes. And doing it by denying your right and ability to govern as the elected president. And as we are seeing, a GOP that is increasingly willing to take the entire country down with them and Obama, and all the rest of us.
The wingers have had that power with the filibuster, now they have included capturing the House of Reps. At least now, it will be easier to spot their nihilistic mindset and use it as a foil.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@General Stuck:
You know, if they had some viable plan to get what they want done then I could get behind them. But they don’t. All they keep screaming about is how this or that isn’t enough, all the while attacking the very people they want support from. There is no method to their madness, it’s as if they prefer total shit-for-nothing rule by the Republicans rather than the half-assed crap we get from the Democrats.
Here’s another humorous thing about the way the crazy left operates. Activists prefer to protest/attack their own because they figure that the other side won’t listen to them. Ok, fine. Let’s say that you attack your side to the point that they lose the next election and now the other side is in charge. Who are they going to protest now? They lost ‘their guy’ and won’t protest the other side, right?
These fuckers are happy to cut their nose off to spite their face. How in the fuck am I supposed to take people like this seriously? They don’t give a shit about anything but the bitch list that they are always clutching and breathlessly reciting.
Suck It Up!
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
And on the way home, they’ll tell you that Democrats have no spine and don’t know how to fight.
jwb
@General Stuck: Those same independents who voted gooper en masse here in November in order to send Washington a message? You really think those independents are going to vote for Obama if the economy is still in the shitter come 2012 whatever Obama says about bipartisanship? The only way that will happen is if the goopers very much overplay their hand—which is the likely scenario given who the goopers have running things. But it’s not at all a foregone conclusion.
jwb
@General Stuck: Obama better damn well have a plan for dealing with the situation or he’ll get his (and our) clock cleaned. I don’t think the magic words of “bipartisanship” are going to cut it.
jcricket
@Agoraphobic Kleptomaniac: I think you have this slightly wrong. Look to California for our future.
Republicans will stamp and shout and pout and furrow their brows and demand ridiculous things.
Democrats will bend over backwards, do their best to come up with cuts and taxes that close the budget holes/fix the problems – but Republicans will still be unreasonable.
So it’s Democrats who will then find some way to kick the can down the road because no matter how far to the right the Dems move, the Republicans still say “no”.
I don’t want Dems to give in and allow the shutdown or whatever. I want Dems to fight, stand up for what we believe, and when we’re in charge – make shit happen. If we can’t, let’s make it clear who’s preventing us. And if the GOP is instead in charge, let’s not compromise with them, not at all.
Time to start running America like a parliamentary system.
General Stuck
@jwb:
Obama wasn’t on the ballot dude. And no, if the economy is still in the shitter, Obama will be vulnerable, but not toast. The wingnuts have no real candidate to offer that would likely be acceptable to a large swath of the electorate. And despite dems senseless and counterproductive food fights, mostly over process,the wingnuts have even a bigger and deeper fault lines over core ideology with issues. I think the economy would have to get worse for it to become a serious problem for Obama’s reelection prospects.
Plus, like you say, the wingers will certainly overplay their hands, and if there is a silver lining to them getting back the House, their obstructive antics will be out in the open, and not just hidden behind the poorly understood by the public, filibuster, or senate cloture rule.
General Stuck
@jwb:
Well then, what plan exactly would you propose to make the wingnuts act like loyal Americans, and not seditious asshats? Passing legislation is simple math when you get right down to it. Obama can either give in completely, and propose only 100 percent republican legislation that Eric Cantor set the bar at, or Obama can do what, exactly?
chopper
@Corner Stone:
that’s also the beauty behind the ‘obama is teh sux’ argument.
Ash Can
@eemom: Bear in mind, of course, the specialized use of the word “shrill” in this blog.
Elie
Its the same tired arc of discussion. Obama disappoints and the righteous progressives have “given up” on him.
Ok. That takes care of that. Fail. We can just give everything over to the Republicans and call it a day. No hope for Obama. Lets keep knee capping him and ourselves for the next two years so we can assure that he and we continue to fail. Also.
So, what you having for Thanksgiving?
Corner Stone
Obama “can’t have a plan”? So he’s going to be in react mode for the next two years? Whatever viciously stupid meme the rightwing pushes he will be in a defensive mode? That’s going to work out well.
We here all knew what the Republicans were going to do, and how they were going to act after 2008. It wasn’t a mystery.
That’s how the notional 11-D chess theory came about. Because people could see what the President was saying, at the same time they watched what the Republicans were doing, and they couldn’t reconcile the two in their head. So obviously there had to be hidden forces at work, just below the surface where we couldn’t see them.
The Republicans impeached and otherwise delegitimized a white Democratic President. What the hell did anyone think was going to happen to a black President?
Corner Stone
@chopper: I’m not going to defend that argument, so what do you mean there?
FlipYrWhig
@Corner Stone:
I think that’s a fair comment. I just also believe that Obama’s inner circle is at least as smart as we all are, and that no one could possibly think that Republicans are _actually_ ever going to be constructive, but rather that there’s a long game unfolding to spotlight the depths of their game-playing, tomfoolery, and other nonsense.
@Dennis SGMM:
It doesn’t accomplish anything with Republicans. It may accomplish something with the public. The public, like Jon Stewart, kind of naively wants Republicans and Democrats to sit down together and get important things done. Republicans haven’t been doing that, and to this point they haven’t suffered much from doing so. IMHO part of the reason why is that they have succeeded in convincing the public that Democrats are being “partisan” and “too liberal.”
How can you reverse that? By making it clear that Democrats are open-minded and Republicans are not. Being “partisan” in retaliation would be immensely gratifying to progressives and liberals, who are starving for someone to be as bigmouthed and ballsy as Republicans tend to be. I get that, and I feel it myself. But there really is reason to think, in my opinion, that what some of the true independents and middle-of-the-road people out there want is grown-up seriousness and constructive engagement, and Obama is actually very good at projecting that attitude, and Republicans are insanely bad at it, and I still believe that Republicans will be hurt by the way they are about to behave.
rickstersherpa
First, Professor Krugman, if you have been reading him over the last 3 years, has never “bought” Obama. He is sorta of a fact based guy, and read what Obama had in his platform and what he actually said on the issues, and identified Obama as the center-right politician he is. And Obama did not lie about either, he just wrapped it up in progressive rhetoric, and the our stereotyping, meme controlled narrative just had to have a Black guy who was a Democrat as some sort of radical liberal.
The problem with Obama is not that he does not have guts or courage or is unwilling to fight. He is perfectly willing to fight for what be believes in. But since he essentially believes in laissez-faire and accepts the meme that social security an old fashion and unaffordable program, he is not going to fight to save it and the rest of the New Deal, something he does not believe in.
gene108
I say let Republicans do what they want. Let them have one party rule and let the morons, who keep voting for them deal with the consequences.
Screw it.
Until things get Great Depression bad, there will be no cause for people to embrace changes that will limit what corporations and the wealthy are doing to stick it to the middle and lower classes.
chopper
@Corner Stone:
exactly what i said. not every reply to posts here is contrarian, you know.
point is that it all comes down to black-and-white thinking. if you’re happy with everything fitting your narrative, you’ll ignore whatever reality allows that to happen. i’ve never liked the ’11-dimensional chess’ bit for that reason.
cat48
General Stuck
@Corner Stone:
Strawman. Just because Obama mouths the bipartisan words doesn’t mean he is just in a “defensive mode” . And contrary to leftist blatherings, he has consistently pointed out republican obstruction at the same time, for the past two years.
Now if the complaint is he isn’t emoting or angry enough, well then, that at least is a rational critique. It is a poor critique, imo, but rational, because Obama is no drama and articulates his anger rather than with Bush league petulance.
The point is, like Krugman and Benen and other dems and liberals have been pointing out recently. The wingnuts are thoroughly self possessed right now. They are quite insane with faux patriotic fervor that Obama must be destroyed above anything else, to save the republic, or somesuch bullshit.
You can’t make reasonable compromise hay with folks who are in that semi psychotic tunnel. And a fucking POTUS cannot become the leader in an all out gang fight. He has to largely stay above it all, but state the simple truths of what the GOP is up to. The gang fighting is our job, his supporters, that is not helped by non stop obsessive focus of Obama fail.
Montysano
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
I get so tired of the won’t-fight meme. Are you willing to have Nancy Pelosi go around the country and screech some equivalent of “Deth Panelz!! Kill grandma!”? Is our side willing to pitch a national freakout when John Boehner wants to talk to school children? In other words, are we willing to act like them, +10%, in order to “win”?
The sad truth is that only the voters and/or the media can punish the GOP for their behavior. Apparently, neither one is up to the job.
chopper
@General Stuck:
this is an endemic problem in the democratic ranks tho, and has been for a long time. we’re not fighters. we haven’t been for decades. we’d rather stand in the corner bitching.
it’s like a bunch of hipsters in a gang fight.
cat48
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Montysano:
I never said that they had to fight the way the right does, did I? If they did then that would be stupid. This isn’t an either/or situation.
What they are doing is not working, they are losing ground.
Corner Stone
@FlipYrWhig:
And I agree, President Obama and his advisers are all far more intelligent than we are regarding policy and politics.
That is why I say that at some point one has to conclude the outcomes we are seeing are the desired ones.
IMO, there’s little reason to talk about a “long game” or other moves that allow this administration to pivot to certain strategic positions we all hope for. From all observable events, this seems like the least likely outcome. And to continue to invent excuses for behavior and outcomes seems a little like wishing for a pony.
General Stuck
@chopper:
LOL
PanAmerican
@jwb:
You assume the 2010 electorate = 2012 electorate.
This is very a poor assumption on your part.
Suck It Up!
@General Stuck:
ooh ooh I know I know, he can “fight”
celticdragonchick
@WyldPirate:
I have to agree. Obama is anything but confrontational.
Suck It Up!
@cat48:
for real? I live in a blue state so I haven’t seen or heard any.
FlipYrWhig
@Corner Stone:
What’s it called when you continue to impute malevolent motives for that behavior and those outcomes? Wishing for the crabs?
Perhaps I err too far on the side of viewing Obama as engaging in rope-a-dope when he says things I don’t love immediately. But there are definitely _many_ people, many of whom soar up the rec list at DailyKos and dominate similar venues, who IMHO err _way_ too far on the side of viewing Obama’s remarks as evidence of backstabbing and covert or overt illiberalism.
WyldPirate
@daveNYC:
I “get that” from the general trend in Krugman and Herbert’s articles of late. Krugman has been skewering Obama overtly.
Herbert has been doing some skewering of his own, but he is directly banging on Obama like Krugman has.
Catsy
@Corner Stone:
No, because that wasn’t the topic of the thread, jackass.
I’m not sure why you think it’s effective to try to threadjack every conversation into an opportunity to bash Obama, but it’s tiresome and just gets people to the point where they recognize your concern trolling for what it is, roll their eyes, and put you in their pie filter.
Montysano
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
Then what type of “fight” do you have in mind? If, as I noted above, neither the media or the voters will punish the GOP for their general asshattery, then I don’t know how to fight them. Wish I did.
WyldPirate
@General Stuck:
this is more of the same horseshit from one of BJ’s chief Obot butt boy apologists.
Obama is showing pathetic leadership and zero spine and he’s getting walked over.
I don’t want him gone because the alternative is far worse. I do want him to act like he gives a shit about something.
Corner Stone
@Catsy: The topic was Krugman being shrill.
And I comment on about 1% of the threads here.
If you have your head shoved too far up your ass to deal with my commentary then you can go fuck yourself.
chopper
@WyldPirate:
apparently the one thing obama really cares about is making you complain about everything.
Odie Hugh Manatee
It wouldn’t matter what I would suggest, someone will be right in to shoot it down as impossible, stupid or whatever else they need to say to negate my statement. That’s how it works for them. What I say doesn’t mean diddily squat to them, all that matters is their cause and that they are working for it the best they know how. Despite that, it isn’t working for them. They are losing ground and don’t seem to really care about it because they are too busy digging the hole they need to bury themselves in. Keep protesting Democrats and pretty soon they won’t have any Democrats left to protest. Since they won’t protest Republicans I guess it means at that point they can just stay home and enjoy the fruits of their efforts.
Mission accomplished!
General Stuck
@WyldPirate:
More natterings from our new Boorish Clown. Yawn
Corner Stone
@FlipYrWhig: I don’t impute malevolence, or any motive except the outcomes are what is desired.
You seem to be the one searching for some imputed motive that is not readily apparent. I’m just saying what we see is what we get, IOW.
Corner Stone
@Catsy:
And it’s pretty funny to me that quoting true statements and observable actions is somehow a ‘bashing” move.
WyldPirate
@General Stuck:
You sure as shit can have a plan when you are faced by what you claim from the Rethugs (and BTW I agree that that is the Rethugs plan as that’s what they have fucking said over and over again).
But what in the fuck do we keep getting from Obama? Same old shit. Hell, I can’t find the quote, but Obama said something to the effect that he thought Kyl was being sincere over the START treaty for FSM sake.
What is idiotic is that Obama keeps acting as if that is NOT the Rethugs plan. At this point–after two goddamned years of this shit–that is one fucking idiotic strategy.
But I’m sure you will find some way to excuse it and praise it as the best game of 11 dimensional chess evah, General Stuck.
General Stuck
@WyldPirate:
Double Yawn
WyldPirate
@chopper:
Right, chopper. You keep pretending everything is just going super for him and the Dems right now. Be sure to tell me how that continual two years of denial feels in early November of 2012.
Otherwise, stick your fingers back in your ears and keep on singing.
A Humble Lurker
@Corner Stone:
In politics?
WyldPirate
@General Stuck:
Damn, stuck. Those are some mad rhetorical skills you’ve got.
Pretty common from teenagers and people that know they don’t have a leg to stand on with their retort.
Why don’t you run along and join chopper and stick your fingers in your ears or up your ass and continue to hum that little song about denial ya’ll keep working so hard at.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@General Stuck:
No shit. Sounds like a broken record, same shit over and over again, as usual. Same old PUMA bullshit from one and whiny bullshit from the other.
SSDD.
General Stuck
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
I am baking up some wanker troll pie for our concerned friends. Secret ingredients :)
WyldPirate
@cat48:
The problem is that most of the public doesn’t give two shits about the START treaty. Their eyes will glaze over about two sentences in. On top of this, the Rethugs can turn it against him with a couple of outrageous lies about “weakening ‘Merica” and giving in to the Ruskies.
Feel free to run up to that football and have it jerked away again, though. I hope it doesn’t hurt too bad when you fall.
catclub
@Agoraphobic Kleptomaniac:
I hope you are right, but I am betting that tied in with raising the debt ceiling will be repeal of the healthcare bill. Or, as Alan Simpson hopes – huge cuts in education, research, and social security.
And it will not arrive on Obama’s desk until two hours before the debt ceiling must be lifted. Then what does Obama do?
Veto raising the debt ceiling? And guess who gets the blame then?
When you know that your opponent in the negotiation is sane, and you are not, who has the advantage?
chopper
@WyldPirate:
see, you’re a moron. i don’t feel that way at all. i don’t, however, bitch and complain about every damned thing, and make everything about my own fee-fees.
Corner Stone
@A Humble Lurker: I would argue we haven’t seen a lot of tricky shit for the last few years.
Republicans saying no and the Democratic party playing a lot of defense.
chopper
@WyldPirate:
see, this right here. first you guys are all ‘obama’s a loser, START etc he has no plan’. then someone points out that he’s fighting for it and has a plan, and suddenly you pivot to ‘whatever, the public isn’t interested anyways’. anything to fit the narrative.
it’s all about the optics with you guys – you think like a republican. yeah, most people don’t even begin to understand START. it’s wonkish. but it’s a good policy, that’s what ultimately matters.
Montysano
@WyldPirate:
And if Obama gets angry, the story will be “Obama is angry” and not what he is angry about.
Wyld and Odie want Obama to “fight” and “show some backbone”, all the while acknowledging that if he does, the GOP will beat him over the head with his own club. So just what the fuck is it that you want him/Dems to do?
The Murikan people have spoken. This is the govt we want. We could have changed it at the polls but chose not to. This is the media we want. We could vote with our wallets and change it, but chose not to. The Idiocracy? You’re soaking in it.
A Humble Lurker
@Corner Stone:
What about the Teabaggers?
Nick
@Montysano:
Because when he does “fight” and “show backbone” like he did with tax cuts this past Fall, they’re no where to be found, or they’ll say “I’d be ok with compromising if he fought first” then ignore when he fights, so when he compromises, they can pretend he never fought at all.
They not serious people.
Corner Stone
@A Humble Lurker: What about them? They are Republicans. Dead set against the President and waiting to punish anyone who even thinks of working with him.
No matter how much they may hate both candidates when it comes time they will vote R.
Comrade Kevin
No, of course WyldPirate isn’t an Obama-hater.
chopper
@Comrade Kevin:
and his emphasis on ‘butt boys’ and anal rape are kinda crazy.
Elie
@Montysano:
Absolutely and sadly true. If we in turn screech and attack the insanity with more, we will just be in a gigantic political gotcha war. Don’t like what we have accomplished thus far? We would have much less without sanity and patience on our side and going forward.
Why is that so hard to accept or understand?
Do the progressives REALLY think we can outshout and scream them? And if we could outshout and outcrazy them, that that would give us MORE successess? That the crazydude repubs and tea partiers would just relent and give in — “well I guess you just shouted us down and now we are going to do as you say”?
Honestly. Aren’t you progressives out there smart enough to see this? And if so, the alternatives that it leaves us – the patient following a process, avoiding more inflammatory knee cap kicks and making enemies where you don’t have to — well, it really IS the right solution. So sorry it doesnt fit your emotional needs to kick the other assholes in the teeth so hard they bleed (a sentiment I truly share and understand but recognize as FUTILE)
Grow up — wise up.. progressives
A Humble Lurker
@Corner Stone:
Well, yeah, but the very fact they exist is a deceit. Not only are they Republicans despite their claims of independence, they’re AstroTurf to the bone. We all know what they’re about now, but when they first appeared they were merely a stupid nuisance. None of us knew about the buses, the scripts they were given to scream at town halls, who provided them and why.
I just find it odd that among a group that can be so cynical (which I say with very fond affection) no one seems to think it’s possible Obama might not always be saying exactly what he thinks or means.
Corner Stone
@A Humble Lurker:
Ok, let’s say I agree. But there has to be a payoff at some point. Either people on your side are persuaded to work with you, you turn a few Republican votes/voters your way, or Independents start to think about chatting you up again.
And the notion that President Obama has time to implement a “long game” strategy has long since expired. He’s realistically looking at losing the Senate in 2012, if not his Presidency.
If that happens then any legislation he’s pushed for is imperiled.
So, what is said could have some ulterior goal, OK fine. What is it?
General Stuck
@A Humble Lurker:
When people hear what they want to hear, there is no incentive other than to take those words at face value, when they fit into a meme. In this case, such as corner stone, he has hated Obama since the primaries, other cases, might have been soft Obama supporters at one point, but are no longer. They want another democrat in the WH, and don’t really care if the wingers take it first. All or nothing, their personal feelings of displeasure rule their thinking, sometimes to the point of rank stupidity. Or, believing that politicians and especially presidents always mean what they say at face value with no observation as to what they actual do, and no acceptance of political strategy per disinformation. Sometimes to trap the wolf, sometimes to just keep it away from the front door.
Odie Hugh Manatee
/snip
You have a problem with reading comprehension Monty? Please point to my post here where you claim I said that ‘Obama needs to fight’ or ‘show some backbone’. I was talking about THE ACTIVISTS and their stupid fucking worthless hammering of Democrats and that their tactics are yielding nothing but fail.
Once they chase the remaining Democrats out of office, who will they protest against? They already say they won’t protest the Repub pols because they won’t listen to them. When there are few Democrats left and the repubs are running the show, who do the activists have left to protest to?
Nobody. They like to think they are fighting for what they want but all they are doing is shooting themselves in the face. What they are doing is NOT working.
That’s twice in this thread that I had to correct your interpretation of what I have said. I know you really want me to be saying what you think because it fits your narrative but enough already.
West of the Cascades
Krugman has taken to channeling Balloon Juice, it seems (reference to a pony seems the tell-tale feature). If true, that is pure win.
Mnemosyne
@West of the Cascades:
I’m still waiting for the magic phrase: “skull fuck a kitten.” Then you’ll know for sure.
Corner Stone
Less than 18 months ago people here at this blog were making front page posts and generally laughing about how destroyed the Republican party was.
Now they have the House and in 2012 will retake the Senate.
And IMO if U3 is above 8% they have an excellent chance at the WH as well.
But it’s irrational to suggest some different course be taken.