But is it as big and important as a Glenn Beck rally:
After a week that brought Ireland a pledge of a $114 billion international rescue package and the toughest austerity program of any country in Europe, tens of thousands of demonstrators took to Dublin’s streets on Saturday to protest wide cuts in the country’s welfare programs and in public-sector jobs.
The protests centered on a milelong march along the banks of the River Liffey in central Dublin to the General Post Office building on O’Connell Street, the site of the battle between Irish republican rebels and British troops in the Easter Uprising in 1916 — an iconic event that many in Ireland regard as the tipping point in Ireland’s long struggle for independence.
The choice of venue for the protests by the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, coordinating the march through the city, reflected the mood of anger, dismay and recrimination in the wake of the economic shocks of the past 10 days. Those shocks have been the culmination of two years in which the economy has shrunk by about 15 percent, faster than any other European economy.
Before that, Ireland enjoyed more than a decade of unprecedented prosperity, so the rescue package being worked out by the International Monetary Fund and the European Union and the austerity program the Dublin government has been forced to adopt to secure the bailout loans have come as a deep jolt.
So which country will the banksters loot next? Portugal? Spain?
I’m increasingly of the opinion that the entire system needs to collapse catastrophically before anything changes. It would not surprise me to see global rioting akin to the Egypt bread riots and widespread chaos across the globe. Of course, instead of anything fundamentally changing here in the US, the security state will use the unrest to consolidate power, eliminate the PBGC, pass some new anti-terrorism laws, gut social security and medicare, and maybe squeak through a capital gains tax cut to “spur growth.”
JPL
Once again the poor and middle class need to tighten their belts so the banksters and corporate raiders can maintain their wealth. Ireland has a very low corporate tax but of course that will not be raised.
cathyx
Here is a great rant by a european parliament member (I think).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fyq7WRr_GPg&feature=player_embedded
Carnacki
A real zombie outbreak would do less catastrophic harm to humanity than the bankers.
ChrisNYC
Isn’t creative destruction McArdle’s beat? :)
Bobbski
@JPL:
Tighten their belts? Don’t you mean drop their drawers, bend over and grab their ankles?
WereBear
We got this far because the masses were both oppressed enough to have nothing to lose, and distressed enough to wise up; over and over throughout history.
It’s just my luck to be trying to muddle through at this particular point. But probably the lady tending her sourdough starter with one eye cocked for Mongols felt the same way.
El Cid
Strikingly, the Friedman unit dissents from the establishmentarian monoview that everyone cares only about the debt and the deficit.
Now, anyone still suggesting that a mix of plans including the Republican Party’s “instincts” is a freakishly out of touch member of the pundit class elites, a naive fantasist of what is actually happening, or a dishonest hack willing to always carry water for the elite consensus.
But at least he points out this deficit-fake-hawkery is a bunch of nonsense.
jonst
I can’t speak about the rest of the world, but I would bet the people here, in the US, if confronted with the scenario you outline will line up like sheep and take it.
General Stuck
There is only one possibility to pull out of our national death spiral, and that is a constitutional amendment to make all national elections publicly funded. A tall order to get done, and not likely to occur until a lot more pain is felt out in the countryside, if after that.
Otherwise, I see nothing, absolutely nothing to change the course of the wingnut driven clown bus headed for the cliffs.
Odie Hugh Manatee
I’m with you on the need for a catastrophic crash before anything really will be done to fix things. Problem is that there is no guarantee that a crash would lead to an eventual fix. It could very well be the final push, the final straw that breaks the back of what little sanity we have left. When economic conditions go to shit, war is usually a result. War is the Great Distraction, something that gets the public anger off of the politicians and onto some ‘other’ who is the enemy that must be defeated at all costs. When you have an angry populace and politicians looking for a scapegoat, distractions are good things!
The rich and bankers own everything, the rest of us either work for them or pay rent. They get what they want and we get whatever is left because that’s capitalism baby! Socialize the losses and privatize the profits, a bought and paid for formula that guarantees success.
Until the house of cards comes crashing down, as it always does.
marcopolo
Went to see Inside Job yesterday, and I highly recommend it for everyone. Be prepared to be totally pissed off at the end of it. There were maybe 25-30 folks in my screening and at the end I stood up and asked that if any viewers had their money at any of the banks that were mentioned in the film that now was the time to move it as they were supporting bad actors. Anyways, it is a particularly good primer for if you have a friend or family member that would like to get a basic understanding of how the financial system broke down in 2008.
In regards to Ireland’s situation, they should have done what Iceland did: let their banks fail. As a result of not propping up their banks and devaluing their currency (which, unfortunately Ireland cannot do), Iceland is weathering the financial unrest much better than other countries in Europe that had to deal with serious problems. Hell, for that matter, the U.S. should have also done that
Here is a nice paper by Brad DeLong where he reflects on how we got to where we are over the last 2 years (http://delong.typepad.com/20101029-battered-and-beaten.pdf) sorry screwed the link up :):
Towards the end of the piece he looks at the odds that we can pull ourselves out of this mess and concludes they aren’t good. One of the reasons is what he calls transvaluative thinking. Here is an example:
JGabriel
Moustache of Understanding via El Cid:
They want the Democrats to fix everything while they continue to live in a Republican fantasy of conservatism?
(Pause.)
Oh shit, I think the MoU might be accidentally right, though not in the way he thinks.
.
Cat Lady
I wonder if the Irish would be so clear eyed about the culprits if Ireland had a significant minority or minorities to blame. Republicans, Wall Street and the media are the traitors here, but it’s hard imaging
thousandsanyone marching with giant signs of Blankfein, Boehner and Murdoch stamped Traitor. Instead we get misspelled signs of witch doctor Obama.BR
The December 7th withdraw-all-cash-from-your-big-bank day that’s gathering steam may be a powerful protest and may actually have serious effects. It’s a very different kind of protest, but it may be more effective than the usual kind.
Davis X. Machina
Where the ‘things’ are the economies of representative parliamentary states, the need for a catastrophic crash to fix them is directly proportional to how ignorant, venal, complacent, or supine, the people are.
On the way off to hang the first bankster from the first lamp post, a quick look in the mirror is in order.
I see Prof. DeLong anticipated this…
eric
paging karl marx to a red courtesy telephone, your proletariat is ready.
Alex S.
The Irish lived above their means, and the way the country is set up leads me to believe that they will go back to the days of being the poorhouse of Western Europe. There are already being signs of an emigration wave of the best and the brightest. Now, the EU will help a little, but the Irish model can’t function anymore (if it ever did). Without the bubble, revenue will not be back at the pre-crisis level for a long time. In the worst case, Germany and/or France will demand a corporate tax hike which would be Ireland’s only asset left if too many educated people left Ireland. Ireland is at a geographical disadvantage, does not have any natural resources and has a small population. I think they’ll have to completely “reboot” their economy. And they shouldn’t pursue the Anglo-american model, but become something like Denmark. An agricultural state with perfect infrastructure and an educated population. However, this will take decades to set up and this housing bubble was a massive waste of resources.
jwb
@marcopolo: It was the refrain of “it’s only fair,” supposedly uttered by the teatards that got me. It actually didn’t really strike me as teatard logic to base things fundamentally on fairness.
Odie Hugh Manatee
Shorter teabagger: “I’m suffering and I want everyone else to suffer more than I am.”
It’s as if they think that everything will be ‘even’ if this happens. If this does happen then what are they going to bitch about next? They don’t want solutions, they want to create problems just so they can point at them and say “SEE! This is what’s wrong with everything!”, thus confirming their view that they are right and everyone else is wrong.
That ought to keep their smug sense of satisfaction full but it won’t do much for their stomachs.
jcricket
I have a couple of questions.
1) Several “smart” people have told me that if Ireland raised corporate taxes (rather than those on the middle class), corporations would simply not locate themselves in Ireland. Sounds like your typical Goin’ Galt nonsense, but I thought I’d check.
2) How exactly will this austerity plan save the country? Cutting social services + cutting 10% of the gov’t employees + massively increasing taxes on the poor and middle class sounds like a recipe for further deficits, worse unemployment and most importantly, depressed economic growth. Which, of course, will lead to an inability to pay back the loans that are at the heart of this, leading to further default. Look at Greece, right? 70% unemployment in some places.
Is this all just forestalling the double-dip recession I fear is inevitable? I mean, Hoover and FDR both proved that recession + unemployment + spending cuts + tax increases = Depression. And judging by modern-day Greece, it seems all austerity leads to is more austerity.
Or is there some magic I’m not seeing where the poor and the middle class will just go further into serfdom and the rich will still get richer?
WereBear
@BR: I think it’s exactly the right kind of protest.
Shame and public opinion mean nothing to them now.
These clowns only notice money. That has to be the lever.
JGabriel
@Alex S.:
They can always go back to hunting leprechauns for meat. In fact, I’m pretty sure that was one of IMF’s austerity recommendations.
.
WereBear
To keep my thoughts separate, let me vent that this kind of thinking is completely cranialrectum driven. It took thousands and thousands of years of painstaking effort and trial and error to get us this far.
Putting us all in yurts, wasting time rediscovering the wonders of fermantation, and figuring out yet again that vendetta is a poor social process; we don’t have that time to waste.
WyldPirate
But, all of you with your newfound nihilism here don’t believe Presiodent Obama is going to save us with his “bipartisanship”? WTF is up with that?
Come on now, support your President! He’s got plans to reach out and go speak to the US Chamber of Commerce–the same one that spent hundreds of millions of “small business donors” dough trying to defeat his proposals. They have to put there heads together and get us a nice little austerity plan like Ireland!
And he’s going to work with those nice Republican legislators to get us some more tax cuts for rich people and to cut things for all of those wastrels like retired workers whose homes have been devalued and who don’t have health care. And we need to cut those free lunch programs for kids and food stamps too! And those nasty capital gains taxes are making “small business” hedge fund managers nervous. To stimulate business, we need to cut the capital gains rate to 10%!
C’mon gang! Get behind President Obama! He’s finally seen the light and is going to work with those nice Republicans who have all Americans best interests at heart!
maskling
I’m increasingly of the opinion that the entire system needs to collapse catastrophically before anything changes.”
the collapse will lead directly to some sort of totalitarianism, some rabid racist fascism. Hitler was just the right guy in the right place at the right time, with just enough charisma to charm the masses in their time of distress. he was the 20th century’s finest grifter. who will step up to the hitler chair in the coming collapse?
sadly, no matter how cynical i become, i simply cannot keep up.
jcricket
@Odie Hugh Manatee: I don’t actually believe the tea baggers want unemployment. They’ve just been mislead to believe that things that benefit the corporations/rich are the only way out of the situation. They believe every pronouncement of the rich/corporations who claim they will stop hiring, move to Botswana, etc. if taxes are raised 3%. Or that if only they were left alone without those pesky regulations the economy would skyrocket and corporations would protect the environment and the public health out of the goodness of their own hearts. My rich brother-in-law is the best example of this. He voted for Kerry in 2004 b/c he thought Bush was an idiot and Obama b/c of Palin – but he’s happier than a pig in shit that the GOP won these elections. He really believes you can’t spend your way out of a recession and that the GOP is fiscally responsible and that tax cuts increase revenues, etc. He’s working in the medical field, but he can’t add 2+2 in terms of economic theory, and can’t see more than a year ahead in terms of how the continued erosion of the middle class will eventually lead to massive cuts in his own inflated pay check.
That’s why we need Dems to just do what they did under Clinton. Ignore the corporations and rich, pass stimulus that lowers unemployment NOW. Then raise taxes and increase regulations a small, but reasonable amount, and when the economy recovers the deficit will erase itself in record time. Same thing with HCR – had we passed a Medicare buy-in for 55+ folks, and a public option, there’d be no difference in short-term electoral impact, but in the long-run it would have helped Americans, which has a long-term positive impact in everything (including the electoral fate of Democrats).
GOP proves you can elected despite being completely full of shit, because they act confident. We have the virtue of having facts on our side. If only we’d learn that lesson.
marcopolo
@jwb: Yeah, I see the same thing when the tea party folks and wingnuts start complaining about the “huge” amount of money that public employees earn since, you know, a lot of them are unionized and all of them are being paid by our sacred tax dollars. So their solution is to cut back on wages and benefits to public employees in some crazy race to the bottom. Really?!?Never mind the studies showing that the vast majority of public employees are not overpaid. Never mind that we really don’t want a country wherein everyone earns Walmart wages and Walmart benefits. And finally, never mind that while they are looking at the birdie of public employee “over-compensation” financial industry employees are making out like bandits. Or if the economic pie of the U.S. was sliced a little more equitably income for folks in the lower 50% might be a fair amount higher.
JGabriel
@jcricket:
Because the Real Business Cycle is Magic!
.
Alex S.
@JGabriel:
or maybe a Riverdance theme park
Davis X. Machina
A general liquidation, a good physicking of the body politic, and subsequent austerity, in other words. With a more virtuous republic on the other side.
At last, a policy both sides can agree on.
jcricket
@maskling: Yeah – the whole “let it burn and then we’ll learn” attitude is horribly misguided. Countries that fail do not become people-run liberal paradises. They become Zimbabwe or the Congo.
The right attitude is FDR style liberalism. Take over the government and in the face of the howls from corporations and the rich, pass social welfare increases, massive regulation of industry and much higher taxes on corporations and the rich.
Sure, you’ll end up with overreach, but who cares. We’re so far the other direction I doubt a little liberal overreach would do nearly the harm our current model is doing.
JGabriel
@WyldPirate:
Don’t you DARE call my nihilism newfound!
I am a committed, long-time, nihilist, and don’t you forget it!
.
Montysano
@WyldPirate:
If there were money to be made from constructing strawmen, you’d be a rich, rich man.
srv
I, for one, welcome our new self-punching emo overlords.
There’s no electoral formula that leads a viable economic recovery strategy until 2014 at the earliest, and 2018 would be more realistic.
Chyron HR
@WyldPirate:
Boy, it really frosts your Wheaties when the “crack hos” (not that you’re racist or anything) who worship “Black Jesus” (not that you’re racist or anything) have the audacity to say things that you agree with.
marcopolo
@jcricket:
Um, did you really just type this? Do you really believe that the Dems under Clinton ignored corporations? Do you know who Robert Rubin is? Do you understand that a lot of the financial deregulation that led to the 2008 collapse was supported and pushed through by Rubin and other folks put into place at the Treasury by Clinton? Do you realize that it was the Clinton Administration, along with Greenspan, and Dems and Reps in Congress that repealed the Glass-Stegall Act and ensured that Credit Default Swaps and other derivatives could not be regulated?
I will grant you that Clinton did a few things right, but I would throw out that those things are probably overbalanced by the actions his administration took that allowed the final and almost total capture of our government by the banking and financial industry. And as for job creation, once again Clinton did a few things right but was much more the beneficiary of being in office when information technology finally reached the sweet spot in increasing economic efficiency and opened up a new industry.
Brick Oven Bill
The Cloward-Piven strategy calls for swelling the welfare roles with 3rd world immigrants, thereby collapsing the economy, and then instituting a system where everyone is equal.
What they have instead created is a Weimar.
cleek
it’s alright ‘cos the historical pattern has shown
how the economical cycle tends to revolve
in a round of decades three stages stand out in a loop
a slump and war then peel back to square one and back for more
bigger slump and bigger wars and a smaller recovery
huger slump and greater wars and a shallower recovery
—
oh Stereolab, you so smart
Ping Pong
Susan Of Texas
A friend took a photo of, I think, City Hall in my city. He was playing with his telephoto lens and took progressively tighter shots. In the print of the last shot of the top of the building, we could see two long metal tubes sticking out of a balcony.
I don’t think we’ll do much rioting.
WarMunchkin
Alright team, when’s the scheduled rise of the proletariat? Because shit, I want in.
ah, I see I was beaten to it @eric:
WyldPirate
@Chyron HR:
For your information, Chryon HR, I use “Black Jesus”, because some of you dumb fucks here treat him as if he is infallible and you act like you worship him–not unlike Rethugs did with Bush–and not because I’m racist.
So you sir–or madam–can run along and endeavor to fuck yourself.
jcricket
@marcopolo: Alright – I grant you that Dems have become as captured by financial interests as Republicans. I was specifically talking about tax policy, in a narrow sense.
I’m significantly to the left (and moreso every day) to most elected Democrats, but I still think change will come in little incremental bursts, and only with the Democrats in charge.
The Republican party didn’t become this right-wing junta overnight. 30 years of sustained pressure from the religious right and “Libertarians” (read: anti-tax, anti-regulation zealots), combined with corporate largesse/lobbying – and here we are.
I still believe the only hope of us achieving anything in this country is a similar takeover of the Democrats by those of us center-left and left. I hope people in Ireland and Greece rise up and take back their country from the banksters. It seems like in countries like France, Germany, Sweden & Denmark the amount of middle-class and general societal well-being are entirely related to an actual healthy debate between the left and corporations/center-right folks – instead of what we have, which is the far right and the center-right.
Pongo
@El Cid:Americans want a plan to make America great again, and at some level they know that such a plan will require a hybrid politics — one that blends elements of both party’s instincts. And they will follow a president — they would even pay more taxes and give up more services — if they think he really has a plan to make America great again, not just bring him victory in 2012 by 50.1 percent.
marcopolo
@jcricket: I would point out that part of the reason for FDR being able to accomplish what he did was a direct result of the economic elites in 1930-32 being able to see the mob with their torches and pitchforks starting to come up the road toward the castle gates. There was incredible unrest across the country, one out of every four workers was unemployed, the communist and socialist parties were growing in power and popularity and there was even a march on Washington be WW1 veterans that led to a several month long live in of thousands of them in front of the Capitol.
A lot of the economic and political elites believed it was go along with what FDR was proposing or face the kind of situation that was happening in the Weimar Republic or worse the unrest that led to the Russian revolution.
Maude
@marcopolo:
At the same time Clinton was pulling the rug out from under the lower income population and the poor.
You have it right. No one points this out. Clinton seems to always be seen as a poor little victim of the Republicans.
He’s worth over $110 million. How can he be a victim?
Susan Of Texas
People need to criticize liberals who support Obama to get them to realize that they are supporting someone who is harming them out of automatic loyalty to authority. It’s not to point out what dumb shits some liberals are.
Getting rid of authoritarian thinking is a process; it won’t happen all at once and it won’t happen by puffing up one’s self over other liberals. People have to give up a tremendous amount of beliefs to get to that point. Some never do, some can only do it partially. Each person has to travel his own path.
You’re not special because you’re further along the path. You’re just further along the path.
Jay C
@jcricket:
Sadly (for Ireland, that is) this may be a facile oversimplification, but one of the main factors driving the country’s former “Celtic Tiger” boom in recent years, was its restructuring as a Eurozone tax-haven of sorts – attracting investment from (mainly) multinational corporations by offering several favorable conditions; a low corporate-tax rate, an educated, English-speaking workforce available at reasonable wages, decent infrastructure, financing and communications; and – ostensibly – a stable currency and entree to the rest of Europe.
Unfortunately, a lot of these multinationals were
speculation“finance”-based, and thus vulnerable to bubble-bursting without having much of an real stake (unlike, say, a manufacturing enterprise) in actually staying in Ireland. Outside of the low taxes. I don’t think it’s likely that a post-boom Ireland is going to see an immediate mass exodus of outside investors (for their sake, I hope not); but an “unfavorable” tax structure might have the effect of discouraging future investment – which of course, will stifle the Irish economy even more, and make their recovery even longer and harder.Montysano
@marcopolo:
All very true. Toss in the loosening of leverage limits on the big banks (2004-2005?), and there’s your financial crisis in a nutshell.
To be fair to Dems, though: they initially opposed Gramm-Leach-Bliley, but caved after the GOP tossed them a bone on strengthening the CRA. The Commodity Futures Modernization Act (which put CDS outside of regulation) was shoved through in the lame duck session of 2000, when Clinton was on the way out the door. Clinton could have vetoed it, but didn’t.
Sly
Portugal. For two reasons:
1) Ze Germans are denying that they are putting any pressure on the Portuguese government to accept fiscal receivership (might as well call this what it really is), but the news leaks mirror those that occurred with respect to Ireland.
2) Spain is the fifth largest economy in the Eurozone. If it fails, it is too big to be rescued. Spain’s fall would lead to this:
An understandable point of view that extends to more than just economic policy. “Shit has to get really bad before people wake up” has been a recurring theme in major political conflagrations throughout human history. And it likely will get worse before it gets better. The question to ask is “how worse?”
Because we should remember that “shit getting really bad” also forces some elements to burrow deeper into fantasy. In some cases, nightmarish fantasy. If you think Glenn Beck rallies are insufferable now, you really won’t like them if a third of the eligible population is unemployed, and becomes unemployed under a Democratic administration.
@El Cid:
It’s still vague enough to the point where Friedman can assert that the “Great Center” believes in the same narratives and holds the same prejudices that he does. Then he doesn’t actually have to make an substantive argument designed to convince intelligent people who disagree with him, because in his mind those people simply don’t exist.
Friedman’s true sin, in both thought and expression, is laziness. And I should know because I’m an exceptionally lazy person.
John O
I wasn’t a nihilist until we re-elected Bush the Lesser.
But even then, I was smart enough to wonder if we would survive it, and I’m with most of the cataclysmic commenters here.
But, a non-violent way out:
25 years ago my bank screwed up my student loan. It was a clear mistake on their part, I had all the documentation, they conceded it was a mistake.
I said, “OK, send me $20 and we’ll call it even.” The entertainment that ensued was too much to describe adequately here, but I can summarize by saying that of the 10 people up the ladder in the chain of the bank I spoke with, me taking as much time with each one as I could thus spending their money, none had an even half-hearted response to the inevitable point in the conversation where I got to say, “Wait a minute: You admit you made a mistake, right? [Right.] Now, can you tell me what you do to me when *I* mistake with you? You charge me, right? I’m just doing business here. My time is worth money.” They just meekly conceded.
It was so much fun I’ve done it pretty much every time The Man screws up, sometimes even successfully. I’ve called my current bank just to spend time with someone important asking them pointed questions about who owns my mortgage.
So I’m saying a ton of that would scare our Masters.
JPL
Barbara Bush needs to visit Ireland and deliver a motivational speech. That will lift their spirits…..
Suck It Up!
@Susan Of Texas:
Jesus Christ! Obama supporters aren’t a part of a damn cult. They are as knowledgeable as anyone else and use facts to back up their beliefs. Can liberals not have different opinions or must you all walk in lock step against any and all authority?
burnspbesq
There’s no need to do away with the PBGC. It’s been technically insolvent for a very long time, because a very large number of the old-fashioned defined-benefit plans it’s supposed to insure are massively underfunded. If the stuff ever really hits the fan, those retirees are going to see their benefits take a big haircut.
http://www.aei.org/outlook/24552
BR
@WereBear:
Yup. I don’t know if it’s going to happen, but I don’t want to go to the ATM on December 7 and find that I can’t take any cash out, so I’ve been taking out a few hundred dollars every couple of days. I figure I’ll hang on to the cash until I find a credit union I like.
marcopolo
@Maude: As much as I take issue with Clinton’s approach to the financial and banking industries, I do have to give him credit for a dramatic expansion of the Earned Income Tax Credit, which did the opposite of pulling the rug out from under the poor. In fact, it is the single most substantial government program benefiting the economic well-being of working lower income Americans passed in the last quarter century.
On the other hand, your point about the Clinton’s current net worth has a lot of merit. Tony Blair in England has also seemingly “hit the jackpot” since he left office. IMHO this is just another aspect of the corporate capture of our political system. I am sure I am not the only person who looks at our congresscritters and wonders how much they are looking beyond their time in elected office to what their future career might be (read lobbyist for a large number of them) and how that affects their votes on a wide range of issues. As someone who lives in St. Louis, I can point to Dick Gephardt as an example.
I dunno, anyone here read a study of how many of our elected officials wind up staying in D.C. after they leave office instead of heading back home?
Sly
@Suck It Up!:
The politics of resentment isn’t just for conservatives. We’ve just been wallowing in that brand of paranoid fantasy a lot more in recent history.
JohnnyB
@jonst: This is the central truth about Americans. For all the yelps about liberty, our citizenry is the most sheepish lot in the West. My God, they were flat out lied into supporting a War in Iraq, and a majority turned around and reelected the liars, telling themselves that Bush deserved their vote because John Kerry seems French.
Of course, the ace that the banksters, corporations, and the wealthy hold is the race card, which has been brilliantly played in our elections to ensure that the money class continues its pillaging of America. As long as a majority of white Americans believe that austerity only will hurt African-Americans, brown Muslims and brown Spanish speaking people, they will cheer the pain inflicted on the middle class. These voters are showing increasing interest in returning to the first decade of the 1900s, when blacks could by lynched without fear of legal consequences, most of our major public and private institutions were all white, and women couldn’t vote.
maskling
@brick oven
you probably missed the news. the economy has collapsed with no help from cloward, piven, marx or lenin. the wizardly wealth-creating class collapsed the thing with their innovative instruments. not a minority or illegal in sight.
i guess there are still those who believe that poor people and barney frank’s lover collapsed this thing. how convenient for their way of thinking that it was solely the minorities they have always despised in the first place that ended the party. why it’s no coincidence at all i tellya!!
which grifter will step up the the hitler chair in our brave new world? get that prize chair before they stop the music!
Michael
@WereBear:
I don’t think they notice money, either, as they’ve enough to provide personal lifestyle cushion.
What they will notice is some good old fashioned left populist violence. Molotov cocktails tossed at the country club, general strikes, Shining Path kidnappings and car bombs.
They’ve earned it.
Maude
@marcopolo:
You are right again.
I’m not saying what Clinton did was all bad.
I don’t like that amount of money Clinton made in such a short period of time. It used to be called unseemly.
I’d rather former presidents not collect the pension and benefits if they are not needed.
Davis X. Machina
@maskling:
Enough to elect a government.
Michael
@maskling:
Secessionist Todd Palin will be happy to do it, using Evangelical Eva as his figurehead to make it appear somewhat softer (note that it is the reverse of the Eva/Peron duo, and is a rightist movement, as opposed to Peronism).
I’ve long been convinced that Bible Spice is expressing hubby’s politics verbatim, and that he drives her empty headed ideology. She’s a nasty-tempered mean-girl in her own right, but too vacuous to arrive at a political set of conclusions on her own.
Bruce (formerly Steve S.)
Wow, Cole’s gone full commie on us.
You realize, of course, that an emotional outburst like “the entire system needs to collapse catastrophically before anything changes” is similar to that of the LGBT activists who vote Republican, Nader voters, and by those of us who harbor twisted fantasies of Sarah Palin getting elected President in 2012. In other words, the next time you feel like lecturing those people for making stupid choices remember what you yourself wrote in this post today.
WyldPirate
@marcopolo:
Bingo. We have a winner. What has marcopolo won, Vanna?
Marcopolo, you are the proud winner of a cruise around the world! And a lifetime supply of pasta!
Too bad that there is nothing but Teahadism for the disenfranchised proles to cling to once the collapse comes.
Susan Of Texas
Jesus Christ! Obama supporters aren’t a part of a damn cult.
Cult is your word (and the right’s). Not mine.
They are as knowledgeable as anyone else and use facts to back up their beliefs.
They have the same tendency as everyone else to ignore facts they don’t like. Anyone could have looked at who was financing Obama (the financial sector) and what he said about Afghanistan (we’re staying) and the banks (they’lll collapse if we don’t bail them out). Nothing he has done is a surprise to those who read his early speeches.
Can liberals not have different opinions or must you all walk in lock step against any and all authority?
We’re sitting here in the midst of a world-wide economic crises, with multiple wars and even more battle fronts, unable to even keep unemployment insurance, and you’re worried about too much anti-authoritarianism? So you can keep your pride?
Montysano
@maskling:
Nicely done.
El Cid
Please put me down on the list of those who think that another significant downturn, much less a crash, will lead to an even further right-nihilist pseudo-populist politics, and no type of liberal-left-labor New New Deal reforms.
Maude
@Bruce (formerly Steve S.):
We know John posts about things he cares about in a passionate manner.
He does have a point tho.
To watch people who had nothing to do with any of the financial crisis in any clountry, get clobbered is painful and makes for outrage.
burnspbesq
@Michael:
“What they will notice is some good old fashioned left populist violence. Molotov cocktails tossed at the country club, general strikes, Shining Path kidnappings and car bombs.”
One of the great things about our country is that you can spout mindless shit like this and not end up in jail.
Michael
@burnspbesq:
So are you aware of any other way to inspire fear in those who have so very many assets, life cushions and a very twisted desire to fuck everything up for everybody else so that they can rule with no consequence? Clearly, shame and public criticism don’t work with those who have their very own Wingnut Wurlitzer to blunt that public criticism.
I’ll be patiently awaiting your solution on how to best deal with David “Auric Goldfinger” Koch, the Hunt brothers, Howard Ahmanson and the like.
Citizen_X
@burnspbesq:
Or like this: “Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable”?
Sly
@Michael:
Billy Ray Valentine: You know, you can’t just go around and shoot people in the kneecaps with a double-barreled shotgun ’cause you pissed at ’em.
Louis Winthorpe: Why not?
Billy Ray Valentine: Cause it’s called assault with a deadly weapon, you get 20 years for that shit.
Louis Winthorpe: Listen, do you have any better ideas?
Billy Ray Valentine: Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by turning them into poor people.
Citizen Alan
@jwb:
That’s because it’s not fair to suggest that “if I’m out of work, then the government should lay off people so others can feel my pain” or “if I’m bankrupt, then other people should be forced into bankruptcy so that my self-esteem improves.” That’s the mentality of a demented toddler, lashing out at the idea that some else has a toy he’s not allowed to play with.
At this point, the level of poisonous hate amongst the teabagger set leads me to question their basic humanity.
Ruckus
@Sly:
True, true, but
How is this accomplished? LW had an advantage, he was one of them. He knew how to game the system. How would he do that today?
Ruckus
@Citizen Alan:
The hate is because they can’t see anything but the past. They are conservatives, so they only see the parts of history they want to see, and then only credit what they see with getting to their deluded vision of the world. They are immature. Except instead of holding their breath till they turn blue, they have realized they can inflict pain to get what they want. The classic bully.
I’m going to get skewered here for this but the teabaggers have a point.
We all want something else from our country, just like they do.
It’s just that we want the positive things to take over. No bigotry. A whole lot less poor people. Better (actual) health care for all. The ability to work and retire without having to steal and plunder. We don’t want to go backwards. We want to get better. They can’t look forward because they are conservatives. The whole point is to protect what they see as a world going the wrong direction. It’s as if they walk around with a rear view mirror stuck in their faces.
Linda Featheringill
@WarMunchkin:
And @eric
and @general stuck
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/11/28/923761/-Citizen-Not-For-Sale-political-candidates
Diary by Sea Turtle on Daily Kos
Sea Turtle suggests something I have been thinking about. It might be worth thinking about and talking about.
I signed up with dkos just so I could comment on that diary but they will have to “vet” me for 24 hours, so maybe I can do it tomorrow evening.
A political movement might have the benefit of a lower mortality rate. And it might produce representatives that actually represent the people.
I don’t have any predictions. I certainly cannot promise that the problem can be solved politically. It would take a lot of thought and a lot of work to establish a workable party platform.
But it might be fun to run such a party against EVERY REPRESENTATIVE.
ruemara
@Suck It Up!:
yes. this is your holiday weekend SATSQ.
Mike G
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
Inflicting punishment is the foundation of white-trash Republican serfdom. It’s the Old South philosophy, “I may be poor white trash but at least I ain’t no…”
As long as there’s someone lower in the heirarchy to look down upon and abuse, and a security blanket of Bigoted Murkan Jeebus religion and Fox News to tell them lies they want to hear they’re fine, and won’t get uppity about questioning the people with all the power and money who make all the decisions.
Mark S.
@marcopolo:
Well o-kaaay. But do these lizard-brains really think the economy is going to improve a lot if all of the sudden we have 15-20% unemployment?
I guess it would all be worth it in their fucked up little minds. At least Gergen and Broder think these are sincere people who have the country’s best interests at heart.
chopper
@WyldPirate:
lol, so you use ‘black jesus’ because of the voices in your head. that’s rich.
DPirate
By this I say you are coming around. You should work at labor ready for a week, dumpster dive for hamburgers, or sell your plasma twice a week for a month. Get some new perspective. Take a big whiff of the smelling salts.
Comrade Darkness
I’m trying to imagine this sort of thing in China, in say, oh, 18 months or so. It is NOT going to be pretty.
dollared
From the top, John: We don’t need a complete collapse of the financial system. And I agree with the others that suggest that complete collapse would lead to a new level of militaristic facsism. As Hitler proved, nothing says “morning in the Rhineland” more than humming aircraft and tank factories.
No, we just need two years (yes, I know what I’m saying) of relentless, methodical enforcement of the law.
It actually would cause a whole series of big financial facesplats. But the system wouldn’t collapse.
What we need is a rocket docket system for financial regulatory enforcement, bond default bankruptcies and white collar crime prosecutions. I nominate Glenn Greenwald as chief of a new federal appeals court, and David Dayen as the bond default solicitor general.
Five years from now, John, Antonin, Samuel, Clarence and that Kennedy guy would probably reverse every conviction and invalidate every enforcement order, but that’s not important. What it would do is interrupt the flow of new deals, and the flow of bonuses.
Two years of that, and all our mathematical geniuses would be over at Amazon, trying to figure out algorithms for what garden implements and pet stain removers to recommend to you, John.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Suck It Up!:
I agree. I dismiss the asshats who like to come in and whine to anyone who has the audacity to say something good about the president. Their criticism usually includes calling them some schoolyard-style ‘bad name!’ to let them know how stoopid and dum they are for saying something good about the president. Something good is mentioned about him and we get the ‘yeah but he did (or didn’t!) do this evil/good thing so you are a Black Jesus worshiping Obot idiot poopyhead bad person who is helping to destroy the country!1!1!!’.
I agree with some of what Obama has done (or not done) and I disagree with other things he has done (or not done), yet I still support him. I may not always agree with him but I have never agreed 100% with any other person so I see no reason to start now. He is not some monster nor is he stupid. He has to work within the structure he came in to, it doesn’t automatically change just because he’s president. I know that the president doesn’t make law, our congress does that and does it pretty poorly. They are largely responsible for the condition we find ourselves in since they are the ones to create the bills and measures that the president has to sign. Yet manic progressives are convinced that if they just had the right progressive as president that everything will be candy and flowers for all!
The ‘pony hunters’ are pissed because they aren’t getting what they want so they are moaning and groaning about it. They want everyone to agree with them and are pissed that it isn’t happening. If you tell them they are single issue types and will never be satisfied until the get what they want, they quickly counter with numerous other issues that they have. Interestingly enough, the issues they list are usually other issues that they disagree with the party of president on. If you point that out they counter with a point or two that they agree on with Obama and/or the democrats just to prove how reasonable they are.
I’m not saying their issues are not worthy of consideration but rather that they seem more than happy to burn down the house to save it. Point that out to them and they go into collective hyperventilation, cranking the pissy up to 11, making them a real joy to be around. I have a hard time seeing how their issues are going to be addressed when their tactics are depressing Democratic and independent turnout by helping to feed the M$M narrative against Obama and the Democrats. I think that since election 2008 many of their efforts seem to be counterproductive, with the results depressing party support and voter turnout rather than building it. It’s like they think that working positively for their goal takes too long and they will get better results by throwing a childish shit fit, screaming I WANT IT NOW!!. The M$M wants conflict, not positive engagement, and they are helping to feed the monster.
Good luck with that.
timb
@General Stuck: I’m not sure we would need an amendment. Tweaking campaign laws rather substantially might do it
Susan Of Texas
I agree with some of what Obama has done (or not done) and I disagree with other things he has done (or not done), yet I still support him.
You are not here to support him. He is here to support you.
If you are satisfied with a president who is tightening the security state, increasing the battle fronts, and has given away the middle class to the bankers, then by all means continue to support him.
Or find someone better.