Ever since FourLokoGate, TrashGate, and TSAGate overwhelmed this blog, I’ve felt very trapped. I have fairly limited interest in these topics (I have some interest in the TSA stuff and none in the others), and my inclination is mostly to make fun of it all, but I know where that leads — to me getting blamed for being the childish nihilist who ruined all the honest discourse with simplistic snark — so I’ve been soft-pedaling it. But then I got an email from a commenter I respect the other day saying that the place was turning into an Atlantic-style circle jerk, where we all respectfully disagree with each other’s principled, intellectually honest positions about stuff. I’m not one to be stung by criticism, but that one really hurt.
Is that commenter right about what this place is becoming? What can be done to stop this from happening?
Update. Everyone has the same complaint: too much back-and-forth on the front page that belongs in comments.
Michael
Honest men of goodwill can have principled reasons to discuss and dispute policy, therefore, in the spirit of bipartisanship you should admit that I win all arguments.
Poopyman
What the fuck are you talking about?
Mike Goetz
No, this place is becoming yet another outpost of weak-ass liberal whining about “optics” and grand-mal hysteria about nothing at all.
greennotGreen
No.
Simple answer to simple question. (Hat tip Atrios.)
Zam
From what I see a couple people come in call everyone O-bots then it goes from there.
Spiffy McBang
Become patently irrational for the purpose of our entertainment.
Alternately… find something else to discuss? There are shitloads of potential topics for a general-minded political blog. Talk about something feminist. Or foreign-based. Or explicitly economic.
For what it’s worth, I think the criticism is wrong. Just because something almost never happened before, and now has happened a few times, doesn’t mean you guys are doomed to repeat the pattern without a commenter intervention. Hell, the fact you’re thinking about it makes any such pattern less likely to hold.
FoxinSocks
I think more Tunch photos will fix the problem. Also. Too.
Three-nineteen
I thought the Atlantic circle-jerk was where everyone cross-links to each other’s posts, saying “he/she has a point” and not adding anything substantive. I have no problem with multiple posts disagreeing with each other or making different points about the same subject. I also have no problem with childish nihilistic snark.
eemom
this is gonna be a fun thread.
Michael
I’ll kick off the notion of taking commentary to a more pointed direction – medicare/medicaid paid fatty scooters.
I laugh at the conservatardism of the occupants.
Discuss calmly (if you can).
Ripley
Form a square?
Crashman
You need to start spoofing WAPO live chats more often. Get on it, Doug!
Lee from NC
Well, I don’t speak much but I visit every day, several times a day. I scroll past all the TSA, trashgate etc stuff. Take from that what you will.
Blue Neponset
Stop responding to each other on the front page. E.D. probably won’t like that he has to read the comments but three front page stories about the same topic are a bit much. Either use the comments like everyone else or edit your already posted stories.
SiubhanDuinne
Attention, front-pagers: Hyphen cleanup alert, Aisle 3, DADT thread.
JPL
After much consideration, I understand what you are trying to say but I respectfully reserve the right to call you an ASS..
Feel better now.
Calming Influence
Dear Dougj,
Please fuck off.
Thanks,
C. Influence
DougJ
@Blue Neponset:
I think that is probably a good idea.
chrismealy
Ouch. That Atlantic comment has got to sting, even if it’s not true.
How about a year-end ranking project? Something like “The Balloon Juice Ten Best People of 2010.” Or if that’s too inspiring, how about crowdsourcing an official enemies list?
me
There is nothing intellectually honest about the libertarian position on the trash thing. It was another example of ideology trumping reason (as opposed to Reason).
Mike Goetz
@Lee from NC:
That your scrolling finger is now three times the size of your other fingers?
Michael
@Ripley:
After covering the furniture in plastic.
LikeableInMyOwnWay
If I were you, and since you know and correspond with numerous BJers off the blog, I’d do some more digging.
Find out what people are saying to each other off the blog, behind your backs. And listen to that. It isn’t pretty, but it’s pretty much on target. I won’t post it here, but let’s just say, a certain front pager said publicly here this last summer, this isn’t a job, it’s a hobby.
So be it. It’s a hobby. But if you want people to take it seriously, you have to take it seriously yourselves. The constant whipsaw from dog bowel movements to serious political issues is fine if all you want is a community of social gadflies who get off on sucking up to the front pagers, accompanied by a sideshow of snarky flame artists who can make a joke out of anything.
There was also a “What is our identity?” period last summer, remember that?
Let me give you a clue: You guys have to decide what you want this thing to be, and then make it be that. If what it is now is what you want, then your work is done.
If not, then do something different.
mikefromArlington
You need to utilize the ; more often tbh.
J.W. Hamner
I think the problem is that this site has always paid entirely too much attention to libertarian nonsense… from McCardle to Reason. They’re a fringe ideology with demonstrably idiotic ideas about how the world works and really don’t deserve the attention you guys heap on them.
El Tiburon
Who is this commentor? Why don’t you name names? What other special privileges does this douchebag get?
Name fucking names!
Keith G
I donno. How many plot point constitutes a growing trend? Three times in 2-3 months is hardly significant if important ideas are being seriously discussed in an entertaining way.
When several threads open up in short order on the same topic diminishing marginal utility kicks in with a vengeance. Not sure what you can do about that. Maybe a little FP’er self discipline.
Again, I donno.
Allan
It won’t be the Atlantic until E.D. bases an entire post on the erroneous numbers resulting from his inability to operate a calculator.
Slowbama
As mostly a lurker, this place became a lot less compelling to me with the torrent of kneejerk responses against the ‘firebaggers.’ It seemed to become a minor obsession with the site proprietor and marked a real change of tone here, one of reaction rather than originality or inspiration. The place has morphed into an articulate, literate version of Daily Kos in its pro-Obama cliquishness and obvious attempts to suck up to the proprietor. There is a lot to criticize about this administration; just because the one before was also bad doesn’t exempt this one from fair criticism.
freelancer
Top 10 BJ assholes of 2010
This oughtta be fun…
El Tiburon
Boobies!!
And lots of ’em!
Paula
@Mike Goetz:
Seconded. I lurked on this blog because snark was accepted and no one got too offended by anything anyone said. Then, post-health care-Hamsher/Norquist-gate you got a whole bunch of fuckers demanding that Cole stop punching hippies and whole threads descending into accusations of corporate shilling/support for torture/bigotry.
In other words, just like every other useless lefty forum on the internet.
Stop blaming Kain. It would have been easy enough laugh him off or ignore him, but with the way the commentariat is now he has to turn into a goddamn cause celebre.
Noonan
Non-sequitur answer: I’m less concerned with the hand-holding than I am the sheer tonnage of posts on the front page. This place is starting to feel like HuffPo: at this point I feel left out for not having been published.
But at least it’s not The Atlantic, assuming McMegan doesn’t start guest posting.
robert green
i feel strongly that you guys should comment on each other’s posts like you are readers rather than front-page rights holders (?). that way we don’t have to choose to get every damn opinion of everyone flowing through our RSS or other updates. If ED writes something about that irritates you (and he will, oh yes he will) go into comments and pick it apart there. let there be one threaded conversation rather than several. it makes it easier to follow the debate and makes it far more interactive for some of your readers.
i believe that the quality of readership here is very high–i learn a ton in comments and i’m sad when i don’t have time to do anything but skim headlines–so i want to find better ways for the blog to incorporate the push and pull between readers and front pagers. to me this seems like an obvious place to start.
slag
Hmmm…I can see where the comment came from. And disregarding the comment section, I can see how it would resonate. But overall, I’m not seeing it.
Tone matters. Debates aren’t necessarily bad or wankery. And if you find yourself beginning your posts with “I very much respect [so-and-so]’s work” or whatever, that’s ok as long as that sentence ends with “but in this case, [so-and-so] is being a complete dumbass”. Or whatever.
General Stuck
I love everyone
now go away you whiny fuckers
Starfish
I feel like it is an Atlantic circle jerk in the sense that people are disagreeing with each other with weak talking points. I get a lot of my news from this site, and I prefer it when people discuss interests that vary from one another and highlight what they feel is important about those interests. I could careless about how much any of you love or hate the TSA. I prefer to get my news from this site because you and John typically provide the news with snark or some other type of humor that makes news tolerable as opposed to making me want to go hide in a nuclear bunker somewhere.
Trinity
@Blue Neponset: I agree!
JPL
@Allan: Teeheehee
I hope that Megan or one of her staff members sees that quote.
ruemara
hm? Dude, we fling some serious poo around here. No one at the Atlantic has that much fun. Whiners gotta whine, ignore them.
OneMadClown
Long time lurker, and honestly, I don’t see it. Everyone from front-pagers to commentariat (including Circle McJerkit) seems to be every bit the self-important Internet know-it-all douchebag that they always were. Keep up the good work, you O-bot/Firebagger/closet glibertarian fuckwads.
Jewish Steel
Nah.
When I start to experience Atlantic levels of Blog Induced Narcolepsy (BIN), I’ll be a mensch and tell you.
brantl
Dump E.D. Kaine. That will do it.
John W.
There’s a big difference between having principled disagreements and discussions and … whatever it is happens at the Atlantic blogs. I’ll call it McArson.
Linda Featheringill
@Spiffy McBang:
Amen!
The very minute that SOME PEOPLE start to dance respectfully around each other, that very minute is the proper time to go off on another topic.
Bob Loblaw
My recommendation would be for the two MPers who can’t stifle their inner white-assed libertarian longings (one of whom used to be a Republican, quelle surprise, and the other is well…E.D. Kain, so it’s going to be hard for them I know) to put in a bit more effort on that front. Maybe try to develop a little warning light in their brain when they find themselves giving a shit about speed-laced alcohol bans and Arizona garbage routes.
But then again, I completely fail to see the merit in playing intellectual grabass with the likes of Radley Balko to begin with. I don’t roll in the right internet social circles, I guess.
Mumphrey
There’s no site I’ve ever found on which I want to read everything. I don’t much care about FourLoko or the Trash or even the whole TSA shitstorm. So I just don’t read those posts, or read them only cursorily. I don’t know what the e-mail writer was all snotty about. Readers can read what they want, and nobody makes them read the stuff they don;t want to read. Seems to me this “problem” takes care of itself that way.
I don’t doubt that some people read the stuff that bores them so they have something to bitch about. I can’t even really fault that: I read David Broder just to annoy myself, and I read Krauthammer just to appall myself. But when I read those clowns, I put the blame for my annoyance, or my appalledness where it belongs–with me. Well, I do blame Broder and Krauthammer for being soulless fucks, so maybe I’m on the wrong track here. But, still, I say, if you don;t want to read about FourLoco, don’t read about it…
martha
No it’s not.
Keep skewering the absurd BS that keeps getting peddled, as you do it beautifully. I about died laughing last night as I read through the threads after a terrible Monday. The fantasy by EDK and the glibertarians/teapartiers that private companies are more efficient than the government is almost more delusion than one sane person can bear. None of these people must actually work for a living, for private companies.
Anyway, I think it’s just the glibertarian shit that get recycled ad nauseum that makes me a bit tired…
licensed to kill time
Sounds to me like you wanna open up a can of whup-ass on E.D.
Don’t hold back on our account.
Fuck! A Duck
Fuck you, fuck this, fuck all y’all.
Also, too: Everyone knows that you don’t respect the commenters so sack up, put yer fee-fees back in your jock, and go out their and rip their heads off tiger!
WyldPirate
I think all of the “Pie-eaters” here are a bunch of snobbish pussies. They should sack up and have their delicate sensibilities offended.
Dennis SGMM
This is not an Atlantic-style circle jerk. In an Atlantic-style circle jerk the participants frequently switch hands to gain a stroke.
Himalayan Pink Salt Hater
Fuck what anyone else thinks. I read BJ more now than I ever did. It has become the first blog I check in the morning.
I disagree with some things Kain says, but whatever. I’m not a gigantic baby.
This place is the anti-Atlantic.
J.
FourLokoGate is so two weeks ago. I give you WhippedCreamGate. (And no, I am not making this up. Sadly. On the plus side, I cannot wait to see the demonstrations at the Congressional hearings.)
4tehlulz
>where we all respectfully disagree with each other’s principled, intellectually honest positions about stuff
HAHA no
Don
Bingo. Unlike someone above, I LIKE the back and forth between dog poop and politics (joke too easy, make your own). It’s the personalities that I find interesting.
What I DON’T like is this thing where the front-pagers write back and forth to each other in new posts. How the hell is there discussion that way? Well, okay – there is discussion that way – half a dozen of them, spread out all over hell and creation.
I don’t know what ED’s firewall/employer/whatever problem is with being able to comment but it’s tiresome to have new posts without new materials/links. If you’re responding to someone, respond in the comments. It’s fucking lame when someone posts in the comments with a link to their own blog; the fact that the new post is on the same domain doesn’t make it suck any less.
LikeableInMyOwnWay
@General Stuck:
Why don’t you move to a town that has electricity?
Heh.
Michael D.
Yes.
There are just too many people posting here. I think John should get rid of 4 people. I have my opinions on who they should be, but really, I think John, Tim, and possibly you should stay. And one more. I have nothing against the people who post here. There is just SO much to wade through that it I think no one really knows what this blog is supposed to be.
Again, no offence to people who post here, but when there are so many people, the blog loses its focus.
The only posts I tend to read are John’s, Tim’s, and yours. It’s not that the other people post stuff no one is interested in. It’s just too much cognitive load for me. I tend to be more sympathetic to E.D.’s opinions (even though I think they’re wrong on balance), but I usually don’t read him any more. I’d rather see a blog focused on countering the crazy than enabling it by pretending that it’s not as big a problem as we think.
Too many people to keep a focus. That’s my opinion.
taylormattd
I think you and the respected commenter must have missed the part where each and every one of the other front pagers ripped the hell out of Kain’s stupid posts, both on the front page and in comments.
So no, I don’t think this place is in much danger of becoming an Atlantic style circle jerk. And yes, that’s a very good thing.
Tractarian
Yes.
Turn back the clock to 2005: More hot air and ill-informed banter. Fewer 10-paragraph treatises on the theoretical underpinnings of government contracting. (And really, the last thing I ever expected to see on Balloon Juice was James Jacques Joseph Motherfucking Tissot.)
The bottom line is you’ve got way too may cooks here and the broth is getting pretty damn spoiled. Limit the front page to John Cole, Tim F. and DougJ, please.
JPL
IMO..E.D Kain adds an interesting twist on today’s events but as Blue said @14, the front page tit for tat gets old. Normally it is on minor issues or issues that only so much can be said.
I enjoy all the front pagers and the addition of Tom Levenson is a real plus.
soonergrunt
@Three-nineteen: He has a point.
Paris
I think its because Kain occasionally posts something so preposterously retarded that everyone feels compelled to comment on it. Also, too.
J
If something deserves snark, even if it’s on the BJ frontpage, do NOT hesitate to unload.
Edit: my apologies to the other J for using the same nick.
Ben
If you disparage the Atlantic but are too lazy to explicitly exempt TNC, I lose respect for you.
andrewsomething
So you admit that there is a secret cabal conspiring behind the scenes to influence the direction of Balloon Juice’s coverage! JournoList all over again.
General Stuck
Too many idiots
chopper
did it feel like an “ice-cold douche”?
soonergrunt
@OneMadClown: WIN
General Stuck
Wonder what tymezone they live in?
LikeableInMyOwnWay
I will add this to my list of your malapropisms, which are legion.
You mean, you didn’t just pull the number 4 out of your ass?
I might laugh myself into an asthma attack. Hey, if I am not on your list, please add me. I think I must have made at least a couple dozen posts in November.
I also think John should get rid of 4 people. I just have no idea who they are.
taylormattd
@Slowbama: Says the firebagger with the username “slowbama”. Jesus.
LikeableInMyOwnWay
@General Stuck:
Can’t remember the last time I emailed Doug. More to the point, I am pretty sure he can’t remember it either.
WyldPirate
@Slowbama:
This is skating on pretty thin ice around here.
Not criticizing JC or anything, but it is really noticeable how when he posts in a manner that is critical of Obama–the Obotter’s fangs get drawn in and the suck-ups come out.
And dude, you nailed the “firebagger” thing. It’s almost slavishly cultish–or cultishly slavish amongst some.
Elia
Great post. Was thinking lately that this place had become a bit boring. I think the major issue is that there’s just too much discussion about whether or not libertarianism works. I don’t think the world political world is so small that there aren’t other things for us to discuss, and, frankly, it gets a bit annoying to constantly wade through back-and-forths over a truly marginal, elite, and basically irrelevant ideology. I’m not saying to ban the libertarian jihad from the blog, but can we impose some sort of Big Brother quota on the amount of time we devote to discussing free markets, please?
LikeableInMyOwnWay
@General Stuck:
Well, just do what I do, and enjoy being among family.
Bob Loblaw
For the record, I blame Julian Sanchez for making epistemic closure a thing that Serious Bloggers were supposed to worry about. And they say the internet is immune to the village hivemind mentality…
Jan
What we do here is substitute the word for the deed.
I don’t even do that much — I come here nowadays for the pet stories.
BDeevDad
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9V7zbWNznbs
Andy K
@WyldPirate:
Why am I not surprised that you didn’t understand the OP?
Key to the OP:
It’s not about commenters who disagree with you and B.O.D., it’s about the bloggers not disagreeing spitefully enough with each other, thus not creating a sense of any muscle-building dynamic tension.
slag
I disagree emphatically.
Don’t get rid of any of them! The newest additions…ABL and Tom…are just as awesome as all the rest. I may not be able to keep up with all of the posts, but so what? I’m always learning something new regardless.
LikeableInMyOwnWay
Or as we call it in Arizona, Baby Formula.
cleek
as other people have said: responding to each other’s front page posts with other front page posts sometimes overwhelms us poor readers. yeah, you all have your own opinions that you want to share, but if you’re all front-paging the same topic within hours of each other, it’s too much.
i don’t know how you fix that. “use comments” seems like the obvious thing to try, but when one of you refuses to use the comment section to say what he has to say…
General Stuck
@LikeableInMyOwnWay:
I stand corrected then, and am too also innocent. At least of this particular incident.
Schad
I won’t settle for anything less than a 1500-word screed entitled “John Cole, You Ignorant Slut”. Due Thursday, footnotes required.
LikeableInMyOwnWay
@andrewsomething:
Oh heck yeah, always has been. Used to be a mailing list.
Now, there is Facebook.
LikeableInMyOwnWay
@General Stuck:
Darrell!
Scott de B.
“Dear Mr. President,
There are too many states nowadays. Please eliminate three.
P.S. I am not a crackpot.”
;-)
Woody
Well, look, there are several Atlantic writers that are worth reading often; some that are worth reading depending on the subject; and The Rest . . .
I’m amazed: I come here (multidaily) because I greatly enjoy the writers and some commenters. I don’t read every piece – but I don’t expect to in the first place. I don’t consider my decision to scroll-on-by makes me the Jew of Balloon Juice Fascism.
I greatly liked what John wrote earlier regarding EDK: The decision about who writes here isn’t up to the readers. I’m not always on board with ED, but I read him, if for nothing else than to read another POV.
LikeableInMyOwnWay
Fixed.
Comrade Javamanphil
@J:
There’s an Atlantic style circle jerk joke here somewhere. Don’t tell me what it is. I’ll find it.
General Stuck
@Schad:
Yup, dressed up in his best Lenin, laying down the law for all the peoples minions, or else.
Why blame Kain, every blog needs a jester.
Digital Amish
It’s obvious to me that the comment section needs more BOB.
Jan
@robert green:
That’s a great idea. Hope they noticed.
srv
JHC. Captain Obvious becomes Captain Concern Troll.
Look everybody, DougJ has been around a long, long time. Like pre-history. This recent era of navel gazing for a clue is just bizarre. Either Doug is overdoing his meds or this is not the same guy.
John, please send Strike Force Tunch to either terminate this imposter with prejudice or fix his meds.
West of the Cascades
Answers: (1) No, he is not right. (2) Post more photos of cats.
Corey
This place would be about a million times better if you dumped ED, Angry Black Lady, and Anne Laurie. The jury’s still out on Tom Levinson and Kay.
I swear to god, if I have to see one more hyper-formatted, cringe-inducing post from ABL I’m going to tear my eyes out. I wish RSS readers had “author” filters.
duck-billed placelot
Ugh. I don’t know what you expect here, DougJ – who started those shit storms of stupid? The commentariat – and the shit storms themselves – have made quite clear that Kain is a naive hack with lazy and offensive arguments. And John nearly lost his shit. He’s not the type to admit defeat, at least not for a couple of years. Kain has, at last count, three times stated that he understands why people get so pissed off about his not reading comment threads – and then continued to post at times when he is unable or unwilling to participate in comments. He’s not going to get any better.
I think you’ve got to either accept that this is what John wants or fight back in some new way. Kain will not learn, even from sharp, smart responses like yours and Annie Laurie’s. I suggest just stepping all the F over his posts. As soon as he puts some crap up, post on an entirely different topic two minutes later. Shun him.
Or start a new blog? I’d read it.
Cackalacka
Not that I find ED Kain’s posts to be overly vacuous (although to be fair, I do) but I do find that when his thoughts are picked to the bone by the fourth commenter, only to have said thoughtful and inspiring beat-down ignored by ED to be pretty patronizing.
Then, when another front-pager reiterates a similar thought that another commenter had already placed in the bowels of the comments, there is a disconnect. It is not as though the other front pagers are being condescending, but it does empower glibertarian patronization.
If you’re getting your ass righteously handed to you on your own comments, be a man about it and respond to your tormentor in the thread.
I, for one, enjoy coming to here and glibertarian places (like Balkos place.)
The key differences I see between the commenting communities is, John et al (save for ED) have the stones to face down and stand by their arguments. The Glibs either waive away the criticism or ignore it (until another front pager calls them out and they softpedal.)
WyldPirate
@Andy K:
Perhaps it’s because I don’t waste my time reading blogs at the Atlantic and perhaps, like others on the thread before me, the comments started going off topic.
Unclench your anal sphincter, AndyK. The world won’t fucking end because I didn’t adhere to the original topic of the thread.
No shouldn’t you go back to your hall-monitor job?
General Stuck
the front pagers aren’t the problem here, the problem is a new grade of assault from pure industrial grad nihilistic, Obama and likely self hating troll. Racing up Mt. Balloon Juice to conquer this little Obot fort and plant their flag of stupid. I give this blog another Friedman unit, or less until it is unreadable. You can’t hold back the tide, nor stop an army of let loose idjits. I just want to go with my boots on, wearing a clean pair of cranky pants.
Midnight Marauder
@cleek:
And this is it, really. People keep talking about conversations being held on the front page, but that only started happening when this site added a writer who is incapable, unable, and unwilling to interact with the commentariat here in any substantial way. And hell, it was E.D. Kain who kicked off the entire “trend” of replying to front pagers in another front page post shortly upon his arrival here.
There’s a very specific complaint that people are making here and there is a very specific root from where that complaint germinated.
Calming Influence
@WyldPirate:
Fucking puss.
This blog is most enjoyable if you consider every post an open thread. Most of the shit Cole and the rest of them write are just straight man set-up lines.
Try the veal.
pragmatism
we’re letting the sensitive glibertarians move the butthurt window towards full palinism. crump that. they’ll get a thicker skin and become better blog overlords if they just wear it.
like the song says, if you’re gonna be dumb you gotta be tough.
Catsy
Yes.
In a nutshell? Be willing to call out bad arguments and lazy thinking for what they are, instead of indulging in the very sort of false comity and manufactured civility that you rightfully mock when the Dems or the media do it.
To be honest, this wasn’t so much of a problem before you guys brought on EDK. Occasionally one of you would write a post building on or responding to what another had written, but for the most part you each had your own valuable perspective on the rare occasions where you doubled up on a subject.
What does EDK have to do with that? A number of things. First and foremost is the fact that he’s just a really poor addition to the stable–he makes bad arguments filled with sloppy errors of fact and lazy reasoning, and for the most part doesn’t bother to participate in the comments on his own posts, let alone anyone else’s. Even other front-pagers have corrected his errors in the comments on his posts, and been ignored.
As a consequence, the only real way anyone can effectively engage with EDK is by writing their own front-page post on the matter. This leads to him responding with yet a third post on the subject, a post which generally consists of him restating the same argument he made in the first post, with the words changed slightly, the goalposts shifted a bit, and a generous helping of either “you just don’t get/understand what I was trying to say” or “despite all the evidence that I was completely full of shit I still think I have a point here”. But despite all of this, you guys don’t seem willing to call his bullshit and lazy arguments out for what they are, which results in a string of repetitive posts on the same subject with all of the disagreements papered over with transparently forced civility.
That’s the Atlantic circle-jerk in a nutshell: a cycle perpetuated by crappy bloggers who keep producing shoddy work on the one hand, and better bloggers who are too polite to call them out on the other.
Nellcote
>Is that commenter right about what this place is becoming?
No, unless BJ is planning an “ideas” conference in Aspen next summer.
>What can be done to stop this from happening?
More Open/Pop Culture/I Read the News Today, Oh Boy (with links) threads.
Find some frontpagers with expertise in science/history/photography to expand subjects to discuss.
More Tunch pix. Also.
duck-billed placelot
Also, too, between Kain’s smelling salts, vote-me-off thread and this one, the level of emoting around here is off the charts. I prefer snarky DougJ to sad panda DougJ any day.
p.s. Apologies to Anne Laurie for my upthread misspelling of her name.
Zandar
Clearly the only way to decide is 80-ton Clan mechs at dawn. None of this stravag inner sphere bullshit either.
WyldPirate
@General Stuck:
I see that you’re Obotomy finally took, General Stuck.
Congrats.
cleek
@Midnight Marauder:
additionally… it doesn’t help that some of EDK’s part of the conversation happens on different blogs.
it feels a bit like a snub to the BJ community to take these discussions somewhere else. ex. the “ombudsman” thing.
arguingwithsignposts
haven’t been able to read the whole thread yet, but if memory serves it was cornerstone who made the comment on the abolish the tsa post. I thought it was b.s. at the time and still so today.
General Stuck
@WyldPirate:
credit where it’s due, you at least know your name and come when called.
Corey
@Corey: Also too, I don’t like the never-ending pet posts, but I understand that it’s a non-professional blog and it’ll have quirks like that. I don’t think it’s like terribly detrimental or anything.
To actually be constructive: more media critiques, less indulgence of freshman-year libertarian nonsense (there is a variety of libertarian-esque thought that is worth considering, I think, but not the Reason stuff), less obot-ism. DougJ, you were doing some stuff with think tanks awhile back that was pretty interesting, although I didn’t agree with it all.
mr. whipple
@Mike Goetz:
x2.
BGinCHI
What I like about this place is how eclectic it is. It ain’t hard news; it’s commentary and alerts on stupid shit (trash may be trivial, but it can sure as hell be a sign of things to come….ever been to Naples?) and serious shit.
It’s sports and pets, and food and booze. And occasionally artsy stuff.
I don’t think snarking each other on the front page is a good idea if it gets repetitive, but a good solid argument is useful when DinoIdiots like Andrea Mitchell rule the airwaves.
Oh, and fuck the WaPo and the Atlantic.
Xenos
My first suggestion is that the second-tier FPers ought to be rotated out on a schedule. Much as I like Anne Laurie, Tom, Kay, ABL, and so on, limit them each to 2 front-page posts per week so they do not overwhelm things.
And those of us who are long-timers in the peanut gallery are finding things a bit dull. I propose that, like the ancient Athenians, we have a regular ostracism of commenters. Once every couple weeks we get to throw one of our fellow commenters out for a fortnight, if for no reason other than ginning up a good fight on a regular basis.
Mike E
Try getting down from your libertarian fence and walk around a little, your butt will stop hurtin’ and you might actually see how we proles get on down here! And such.
Poopyman
Oh, fer Gawd’s sake ….
You can stop the damned navel gazing for starters. Introspection is sometimes good. Doing it on the front page of a blog is not.
And readers can stop feeling the need to read every post just because it’s on the front page. Seriously people, if you don’t like a poster just skip the post. Likewise, when you see some (insert derogatory term of choice here) making a comment you find stupid or offensive, ask yourself “is it worth my time to answer this sack o’ shit?”. Chances are you will better serve the BJ community by scrolling on down to find a better comment to riff off of.
Except for poop jokes. They’re mine dammit!
General Stuck
@Corey:
could we bring you a soft pillow, and maybe some fruity beverage to make yer precious ass comfy?
WyldPirate
@General Stuck:
What can I say, Stuck. Sometimes one has to figure out where that nasty, foul smell of shit is coming from.
It almost always leads directly back to you…
Calming Influence
@Xenos: I vote for tossing Xenos!
kwAwk
@LikeableInMyOwnWay:
Not sure I agree with any of that. What makes this blog fun for me is reading about JC’s life foibles and triumphs along with the current events stuff. He just seems more human and able to project a sense of self than most of the bloggers I’ve seen out there.
I don’t really disagree with some of the criticism of the commenters, though I think if you go looking for intelligent debate in the comments you can generally find it. And certainly you can find a good flame war if that is what you’re looking for too.
mr. whipple
@Poopyman:
Then I have to come along and clean up. Sigh.
eemom
Tried to say this already but my comment got eated.
I have observed, in the many hours of my life that I have foolishly frittered away on blogs, that these soul-searching, “where did I go wrong,” look-down-upon-me-Jesus type posts never accomplish much of anything.
Still, it’s sweet of DougJ to care.
ETA: oh and this one is hilarious. Also too.
Crashman
@Xenos:
Love it. We shall be sated only with blood.
srv
It was a good thing when John, Tim and DougJ read those other folks so we didn’t have to. But I, for one, never thought those other folks would mostly become McStupid and her slightly smarter cousin Sully. It’s like kicking the dog because they made a mess on the carpet. THEY DON’T KNOW ANY BETTER.
I WANT MY
COUNTRYBLOG BACK!Nutella
Agreed that using front-page posts to comment on other front-page posts, instead of using comments to comment on front-page posts, has got to go.
May I suggest that if you or any other front-pager is sick of TSA or GarbageGate, the best way to deal with it is to write a post on some other more interesting topic.
Oscar Leroy
@Slowbama:
Well said.
Except the “articulate and literate” part. Saying to someone “you don’t agree with me, so you must be stupid” is neither. And far too many regulars here can barely spell, let alone reason.
freelancer
BJ cannot fail, it can only BE failed.
Redshift
If you aren’t interested in a topic, don’t post about it. When ED writes a particularly idiotic post, it gets ripped perfectly adequately in the comments, and even if it isn’t, it will soon fade into well-deserved obscurity without a front-page rebuttal.
I think I speak for most of us here that we’d much rather you post about something completely different that actually interests you rather than letting “someone is wrong on the Internet” dictate the sole topic for most of the day.
General Stuck
@WyldPirate:
We finally half way train one corner stone and along comes another.
Bob Loblaw
I, for one, would like to note with all proper irony the very ombudsman-like tone and nature of this post. Well done all.
Elia
@LikeableInMyOwnWay: You clearly understand that blogging is VERY SERIOUS BUSINESS.
Lysana
ED Kain causes the circle-jerking. So either he needs to find a way to engage folks in comments or something’s gotta give.
On the other side, I’ve been relieved at the diversity introduced by Anne Laurie and ABL. Frankly, white males control the discourse way too much. The rest of us need more fora to express ourselves and poke your perceptions in the eye a few times. And by doing it here, it means those alternative perspectives aren’t ghetto-ized.
And yes, Doug, please, snark your fellow front-pagers if you’re of a mind to. Or add something of other substance if the topics currently flying around aren’t working for you.
Sentient Puddle
I have a scroll wheel on my mouse. It’s all good.
The fatigue I feel comes mostly from the one-note commenters who come in and shit out a bunch of posts in a thread. Not that many I feel this about, but man they’re a drag. Yes WyldPirate, I can predict that your post will find some way to bash Obama. No, I’m not interested in reading it over the course of twenty posts in this thread. Get a hobby.
Otherwise, I irrationally feel like we could use more threads that aren’t about politics. But I think that might just be a seasonal thing.
Xenos
@Calming Influence:
You can’t do that to me – I quit!
No, wait!
Bruce (formerly Steve S.)
If you hang around until the thread tipping point — don’t know exactly where that is, maybe around comment #150 or so in any given thread — all the kum-ba-ya shit gets tossed to the side and the fun really begins. So be patient.
slag
@Catsy:
Well, you do make a somewhat compelling argument.
The funny thing is that I like the idea of an EDK. I really really do. But every time I read his posts, I start to wish BJ could find someone who fits his profile but who wasn’t so lazy and willfully ignorant. But then I remind myself that lazy and willfully ignorant must inherently be a trait of libertarians. Otherwise, they obviously wouldn’t be libertarians in the first place. Very sad. Cynicism wins this one.
It also makes me worry a little that, in order to increase religious diversity, BJ will next bring on one of those people who relentlessly try to argue the existence of God by quoting the Bible. It’s really hard to see what the fpers can do with that after a while besides smile and nod. There is no breaking that wall. As frustrating as it may be.
WyldPirate
@General Stuck:
Someone has to keep you fuckers on your toes. Otherwise y’all would get bored as hell agreeing with each other.
Larry Bird
ABL is terrible. Sorry but it is true.
Poopyman
@Bruce (formerly Steve S.):
Ooooh, goody! It’s coming up soon!
Oscar Leroy
@WyldPirate:
Where did that “firebagger” nonsense come from in the first place, anyway? During the health care fiasco the people at FDL opposed what we ended up with, so they were voted off the island.
Of course, these days anyone else who criticizes Obama gets phantom zoned too–Atrios, Krugman, etc.–but I never got what was so bad about FDL.
Edgar Allahu Akbar Poe
Let me get this straight. For pretty much fucking ever this blog has been a mixture between a daycare and a sewer where people speak their own increasingly meaningless and obfuscating language (butthurt!! poutrage!! obot!! firebagger!!), no one gives anyone else the benefit of assuming their good faith (which is what a productive conversation requires), and anyone smart reads only for the entertainment value; the site finally hits puberty and begins to learn to have a thought and now you think something’s wrong??
Nellcote
On a positive note, I very much appreciate the addition of Annie Laurie and ABL to the front page. Otherwise it’s just another old white guy blog.
Poopyman
@slag:
See my comment at 116. I predict it would die from lack of comments. In a perfect world it would, anyhow.
Xinark
Hey, lurker here, deciding to speak up again. I’ve only been reading for about a year-and-a-half, maybe two, so take what I say with as many grains of salt as that warrants.
With the front page seeming to double in size in terms of posters, it’s hard to keep track of who’s who anymore. By that, I mean, each poster here has a pretty distinct voice and has a fair amount to offer the discourse, but in the mass of different pieces, the voice of the blog, as a whole, seems to be muddled.
I came here, of all things, as a leftist-borderline-naif (depending on who you ask) looking for a wider range of perspectives from the left or liberal side of things, especially given how a lot of other places seemed to lack that nuance (and if I wanted anything conservative, I could probably look to 95% of mainstream discourse in this country). The commentariat here was awesome, too; I learned stuff in the comments as much as the main posts, and the sense of community here was pretty wild for, effectively, a bunch of people posting comments on someone else’s blog. There was just this underlying sense of purpose, too: call bullshit on that which is bullshit. If I could sum-up anything I read on the front page or in the comments as a trend for this blog, it’s that: calling out bullshit, while providing enough of its own to make things interesting.
And, for the most part, among some front-pagers — including some of the new posters, don’t get me wrong — and a lot of folks in the comments, that’s still there somewhat.
But then the bullshit went down with health care, and this place went all crazy, to put it lightly. Now it’s almost like someone has to flash “puncher-of-hippies” or “no true progressive” credentials before saying anything, because just calling out bullshit, regardless of where it falls on the strata of “liberal” or “lefty,” is admittedly damn hard to do when it’s personal now to some people, and the discourse suffers a little for it. Suddenly B.O.B. wasn’t the biggest troll around; people were just trolling each other out of spite and strawmen. Hell, I’m no different making that comment just now, I suspect. But nothing could be said that wasn’t either being a “firebagger” or being an “Obot,” and the nuance just went away. Maybe it wasn’t there in the first place, but it seemed like it was, at least for a little while.
And just when things start to settle down, the meta kicks-in with the arrival of E.D. Kain. Of that, I’ll only say this: on a blog that spends a lot of time, probably too much time, disparaging of libertarians, I could see why it would be warranted to include a representative of the movement.
I take that back: it would, if only the same dynamic of the other front-pagers — responding directly to comments and engaging in a discussion with the commentariat — would apply. Absent that dynamic, for whatever reasons, things fall apart. We have posts now dedicated to the ensuing back-and-forth, leaving the front page cluttered with a fragmented discussion, instead of individual posts devoted to a wider variety of subjects and ideas and, well, open threads. There’s not an easy solution to that whole mess, and I know that, in the past, John and DougJ (and others) have referred to each other in posts before, too, though not nearly as excessively as now, so it’s not exactly a new thing. But having to spend an entire series of posts just addressing what one front-pager writes, responses to the criticism from the original front-pager, a second volley of criticisms from there, and so on, isn’t the best system, either.
Maybe that’s where the whole “Atlantic” vibe comes in, too: instead of drawing rhetorical blood like with other, similar targets, any criticism toward E.D. Kain is treated delicately and with respect. When he posits arguments that, if they had been posted anywhere else, by anyone else, would be torn apart with a volley of (possibly deserved) insults, rhetorical bludgeoning, and general belittling-of-character, he avoids the same treatment and instead is regarded with respect for his contribution. That’s not to say such treatment is equally deserved by him; just that it’s a bit jarring to see enacted, almost like a double-standard.
Anyway, in the midst of all this firebagger and Kain-induced fervor, it’s almost like the blog has lost itself in…well, itself. Only a little bit, but enough where it’s noticeable. I don’t really know how to describe it, or that I’m even qualified; please feel free to correct me or put me in my place, as the case warrants.
Back to lurking with me. And obligatory: this blog would be saved if only there was more Tunch.
jeffreyw
I would suggest that more doggie pictures would help.
ruemara
@WyldPirate:
It’s pretty much coming from you. Even a posting about the blog in and of itself becomes an opportunity to bash on Obama and anyone who does see it your way. For fuck’s sake, give it a motherfucking rest.
Corner Stone
@arguingwithsignposts:
Not quite.
I made a similar comment on that thread, and I stand by it. IMO it is an accurate representation of the relentless idiotic bullshit EDK has brought here.
But DougJ said it was from an e-mail from a commenter he respected.
1. I’ve never e-mailed DougJ
2. I’m sure he wasn’t referring to me
BTW DougJ, I’m hurt. You have hurt me.
Oscar Leroy
WyldPirate, stop criticizing the president! There’s no place for that on a political blog! ! ! ! ! ! !
fourlegsgood
That commenter needs to take a valium.
General Stuck
Assumptions concerning “good faith” are earned.
You want the benefit of assuming their good faith as the rule of thumb , turn on CNN.
Zifnab
@cleek:
This. Let the comments section be for comments. If you’ve got anything serious to add, update, etc, or the comment section is pushing 200+ entries and you just want a fresh thread, then I guess it’s cool to repost and rehash.
But the back-and-forth is a bit numbing. It’s nice to have a variety of topics to discuss. “Topic of the Day” isn’t always the only fish in the sea.
geg6
Whoever it was who emailed is full of shit with one exception that has already been explored fully by many other commenters. So I will leave that alone.
I love almost all the new FPers. It’s great having different people with different styles and expertise contributing. I can’t say how much I love dengre’s stuff and ABL’s and Tom Levenson’s (what a get!). I’ve always adored Anne Laurie, kay brings a viewpoint I don’t often come across (a party activist!), mistermix has great slams. And, of course, you, John, and Tim F. are always the sentimental favorites.
I also love all the different topics covered here. BJ is not just a political blog (though I think it’s the best at that due to the snark), but it covers a wide range of topics, some of which I am not interested in at all (photography comes to mind). But as soon as one topic I don’t care about pops up, another on a topic I love (puppehs!) will be right behind.
The best thing about BJ is the commentariat. It is, hands down, the smartest, snarkiest, and most fun commentariat on the Intertrons. There are those I could do without (no, I won’t name names; they know who they are), but even they are important to the give and take here. I love that Cole almost never bans anyone. I love that I can tell people to go get fucked. I love that I can say something I regret the next day and no one (well, hardly anyone) holds it against me. It is sad that one of the new FPers is missing out on the best part of the blog and that is something that is not true of anyone else here. That, IMHO, is the only thing that has gone wrong here lately, though Cole is our god and he says too bad for us about that.
As for things that could be done better? Well, being a woman, I’d like to see more issues relevant to women (ranging from Pandagon-like discussions of “nice guys” to equal pay to cooking competition shows) get some play and I have hopes that our female FPers will get around to that some day.
Alex S.
I like this blog because it tries to be a bullshit -free zone. Of course, that depends on my own perspective, but I find the share of bullshit front-page articles to be fairly small, and whenever I find one, I comment on it. I thought that front-paging against another front-pager was a bit much even though I understand where it’s coming from. It could have been dealt with behind the scenes, or Doug could have used the comment function. In the end though, it’s not a conflict between Doug and ED, but between Doug and John, and it’s about what the concept of this blog is. I guess I find myself more in agreement with Doug about that, but in the end it’s John’s place, and as long as my demand overlaps with John’s concept of this blog I’ll stay. If not, I leave – and that would be no big deal, it’s a non-profit blog. About that comparison to the Atlantic, well, if the bullshit is still getting called out, you can have all the circle-jerks or friendy fire you like. The easy solution is always skipping it. I felt uneasy about Doug’s criticism though, because it appeared to be personal, even though it’s probably not. It’s just Doug’s allergic reaction to libertarianism.
Oscar Leroy
@Edgar Allahu Akbar Poe:
Don’t forget **shudder** “teh”.
I’m going to go disinfect my keyboard now.
WyldPirate
@Oscar Leroy:
Shit, I’m not sure, OL. I was an intermittent reader at the time and very infrequent poster during the HCR fiasco days of August 09.
I think the “firebagger fetish” amongst the Obotomized came about a few months ago when Jane Hamsher snarked on one of Cole’s posts and they had a mini inter-blog jihad thing going on.
I kind of view the anti-firebaggers and the Obotomized as a cross between pissed off Chihuahuas and angst-filled teenage girls who didn’t make the cheerleading squad. Their sole mission is life is to shiv socially (as in not in the blog’s “kewl Kidz crowd) anyone that upsets their “beautiful minds”.
Dave S.
@Nellcote: Actually I think a BJ Ideas Conference would be a hoot, although I don’t see it happening in Aspen.
Ailuridae
@El Tiburon:
It was me.
@Midnight Marauder:
And this is it, really. People keep talking about conversations being held on the front page, but that only started happening when this site added a writer who is incapable, unable, and unwilling to interact with the commentariat here in any substantial way. And hell, it was E.D. Kain who kicked off the entire “trend” of replying to front pagers in another front page post shortly upon his arrival here.
I basically agree here. I don’t think ED adds anything of substance on most issues and on many issues, he is proceeding dogmatically from a libertarian ideology and ignoring all actual facts. I find that frustrating to read especially when many, many commenters who actually know what they are talking about take a lot of time to point out where Kain is plainly in error.
I didn’t intend for the Atlantic Media point to be a cheap shot and in hindsight I think a different comparison is more apt. Much of the TRBC was irate about the WaPo refusing to correct substantiative factual matters in several of George Will’s pieces on climate change. And, they/we were right. And, I believe that sentiment was echoed here most likely by DougJ himself. And just as with Will so it is with Kain now.
Yes, I understand a blog isn’t a newspaper or even en editorial page. And, yes, I tend to think that ED Kain should just acknowledge his own errors in the posts with a simple “wow, I had no idea what the actual relevant facts were about X and should probably refrain from posting on such topics til I do” addendum but barring that it becomes an editorial issue. But when Kain writes on regulatory issues he is, for all intensive purposes, George Will writing on the environment. He’s serially misinformed and often openly dishonest. And like Will this isn’t a “we just have different opinions issue”; he’s demonstrably wrong on the actual facts.
Midnight Marauder
@cleek:
I just thought it was very telling that E.D. was able to make his infamous “ombudsman/in-house critic” quip in the comment section of another blog. In the middle of the afternoon. On a weekday.
The only reason I bring this point up is that E.D. has repeatedly insisted that he has no ability to comment here during the day because of his work situation (amongst other factors), which would seem to be straight-up bullshit given the fact that this comment exists.
But I think this goes back to something DougJ mentions in the original post:
I think there is an increasing tendency amongst front pagers here to not be as aggressive as they should in calling out patently obvious clowns and egregious levels of bullshit.
It’s not your fault Cole made an atrocious selection and seems incapable of appreciating that fact. Let it rip loose.
eemom
ok, I think I sense some consensus building here.
So far I’ve got:
1. If front-pagers disagree with each other they should comment directly on each other’s posts so as to pretend that they are at one with the great unwashed, and NOT make a whole ‘nuther post on the same exact same topic just to show off the fact that they ARE in fact a big-ass dick-swinging front-pager who gets to make his own post whenever he disagrees about something instead of a just a whiny-ass little commenter like all the rest of y’all.
Very Reverend Crimson Fire of Compassion
One of the things I loved about this blog on first stumbling across it was that I had a pretty good chance of finding some smartass BJ commentary on just about any headline that caught my attention, whether in regard to domestic politics, international relations, or cultural/tribal/religious developments. The focus of front-pagers’ attentions seem to have steadily narrowed over the last few months. And most of the criticism I’m seeing here misses this point. The NYT is full of articles on the celebration of secessionist anniversaries, and links between teabaggers and neoconfederates, and what is DougJ posting about? This shit. Kain’s not derailing the conversation by himself. This whole meta-narrative crap where everybody sits around discussing balloon juice (like I’m doing right now) is boring as hell.
geg6
@Nellcote:
Word. I’d be willing to bet that almost everyone on this thread bitching about her is a white male. The privilege never ends with that bunch.
Alex S.
@Alex S.:
hyphen + slow server = fail
slag
@Poopyman: As someone who skips a lot of arguments for that reason, I get where you’re coming from. But there is a saturation point. As other comments have mentioned, BJ is where calling out stupid shit is done best. However, it only works well when the stupid shit doesn’t flow uncontrollably from within.
General Stuck
This thread about Balloon Juice civility is making me grumpy.
Time to walk the dog.
J. Michael Neal
I agree with the basic idea that the proliferation of front page posts is now a serious problem. Unlike pretty much every blog I read, the comments section is the heart of this place for me. I like the front page posts. There are times when all I have the energy to do is read them, but they aren’t the real point for me.
So goddamned many posts means that it becomes extremely difficult to get conversations going and keep them going. A new post is made, which pushes an older one off the bottom of the screen, so no one goes there any more. A new thread starts, but it has people responding to each other’s comments in old threads, which makes it extremely hard to figure out what’s going on.
Slow down the posting. Most of my suggestions have been made already: no responding on the front page being the primary one. But I have another: Have a small number of fre-ranging front pagers (obviously including JC and Doug, and maybe one more person), and the rest should all be niche posters. The ideal here is Dennis G, who has a particular subject he focuses on, and only posts when he has something to say on that subject. Make Randinho your sports editor, if he’s willing to branch out. I like Anne Laurie as a front pager, because she mostly has a niche: Late Night Open Threads, pets, and the occasional post about Massachusetts.
Give me about three complete bullshitters who pull posts out of their ass, and then some people who post on things that they particularly know about, but not just whatever comes up.
Also, getting rid of the particularly obvious trolls would be a good thing. I don’t mean someone like WyldPirate, even though he’s a complete idiot. I don’t mean Corner Stone, even though he’s an asshole. matoko_chan needs to go. Whoever it is (I can’t remember his name) been breaking threads with 15 paragraph essays on his favorite conspiracy theories. Get rid of the people who clearly have no interest in actual conversations.
Those two things right there would deal with most of the problems.
Alwhite
@Blue Neponset:
Yes, this – respond to each other in comments please.
@Slowbama:
Yup, I noticed this also. Add in a couple of trollers that dash into every thread with pointless OT BS about Obama & I have been less enthused recently about BJ
Earl Butz
Tractarian has it right. That is all.
And FWIW, this place is not the second coming of the Atlantic. The commentariat is far too intelligent and abusive for this to ever become anything like that.
Oh yeah, and keep Dennis. He rarely front pages, but when he does they are doozies. His rate of posting is good (means, very rarely), and his quality is epic.
Catsy
@Ailuridae:
“For all intents and purposes.”
Other than that, what Ailuridae said.
@J. Michael Neal:
While I agree (and would personally add WyldPirate to the troll list; he’s one of the few whose contributions are so reliably worthless that he’s on my pie filter), where do we draw the line?
Or more to the point, where does John?
Basilisc
My suggestion: hold tight until the Republicans finally take over the House in January. Then there will be more than enough absolutely outrageous actions, proposals and rationalizations from the right, and more than enough outrageous surrenders, retreats, and rationalizations from the left, to keep all of us busy expressing outrage at the horror of it all.
The last few weeks have been a weird interregnum. We have a few weeks now of lame duckedness, but most of the right-wing stupidity and left-wing pusillanimity has already been expressed. I guess we can wait to see exactly how McCain et al will deep-six DADT repeal, and exactly how Reid will let him, and exactly how Reid, Pelosi and Obama will screw up the Bush tax cut extension. But the outlines of how both of these will go down are already pretty much clear, and the outrage has been pretty much expressed as needed.
So how about the cat-lovers spend the next couple of weeks trading cat pictures and the rest of us take a breather, mmkay?
LikeableInMyOwnWay
@Elia:
Yes, but only in a parallel universe.
We are in the dogshit universe, where everything has a 24 hour cycle of intake, digestion, and elimination.
The only question is, soft, firm, or liquid?
Sorry gotta run ………. eyoowwww …..
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
I don’t think there’s much wrong. One of the things I like about this place is its calling out of ideological bullshit from all directions. The difference is now we have a FPer who likes to post this crap. If he’s going to stay – and I don’t see why he can’t – then he’s going to be called on it, even by other FPers. Maybe all responses to a post should be in the post, but that doesn’t really bother me either.
As for us agreeing to disagree, we’re a blog, not Congress. Let’s not get any idea that we’re making decisions here. If that happens, this place will have jumped the shark.
slimslowslider
i am just sick of the term “asshat”
The Other Chuck
What everyone else has been saying: Stop replying to each other on the front page. That needs to be a rule, and if it’s too much for EDK, he needs to go.
General Stuck
Not going to happen, life moves on, shit changes, and Cole is going to limit his exposure to the bullshit, and I can’t blame him really. Pretty soon, I suspect, a Cole post on anything other than pets and pointy head foodstuffs will be a relic, or at least rare as a Wildypirate brain cell.
I will say this though, ABL goes, so goeth I, most likely. She put a spark in my tired blogging soul.
Pangloss
@J.W. Hamner: Bingo.
J. Michael Neal
@Nellcote:
Another fairly new poster, mistermix, is not a white guy.
Keith G
@Very Reverend Crimson Fire of Compassion:
Well then, we could be discussing this instead:
…but then I would have to decide between sniffing paint thinner or just drinking it.
LikeableInMyOwnWay
@General Stuck:
So, if I send you an air conditioner, can you run an extension cord down to Las Cruces and at least get your summer under control?
oklahomo
More snark, not less, Dougj.
The more nihilistic, the better.
( And maybe a cleek-style filter for a(some) front-pager(s). j/k. I think. The modified-pie-filter I run makes the comment threads semi-bearable, at least. )
Edgar Allahu Akbar Poe
@General Stuck: That’s just the sort of silliness I don’t understand. See, if I suspected that someone was arguing with me in bad faith I wouldn’t spend any amount of my time engaging them. What would the point of that be??
WyldPirate
@J. Michael Neal:
Pretentious asshole, much?
Tim P.
Step 1. Realize there’s no such thing as a libertarian who cares about human suffering in the same way a liberal does and thus that the two views are fundamentally incompatible.
Step 2. Realize that the development of competing vocabularies (obot vs. firebagger, etc.) cannot help but fracture the community and should be avoided whenever possible.
Step 3. ?????
Step 4. Profit.
J. Michael Neal
@Catsy:
Wherever the fuck he wants.
The reason I didn’t include WyldPirate is that, as I said, let’s just dump the really obvious trolls. WP is, indeed, a predictable moron. But there is at least a plausible case that he is trying to engage in substantive discussion, even if he isn’t very good at it. So, by my criteria, he stays.
J. Michael Neal
@WyldPirate:
Yes.
Keep in mind that I’m way above the median on your list of defenders around here. So keep my comments in perspective.
Nellcote
@J. Michael Neal:
My apologies to mistermix and kay, too, for leaving them out.
General Stuck
@LikeableInMyOwnWay:
LOL, I like the heat, and have plenty of palm fronds to fan myself, like the natives do.
Alwhite
@Corey:
Whats sad to me is that ABL often has something useful to say, I just wish she could do it in less than 50,000 words. Yes, I have ADD so what?
Brevity is the soul of wit.
El Tiburon
@J. Michael Neal:
I don’t think we should be talking about this.
General Stuck
@Edgar Allahu Akbar Poe:
i can’t make you love me if you don’t
you can’t make your heart feel
somethin’ it wont
J. Michael Neal
@Alwhite: Agreed. Snark is best in small doses. You need to boil down the soup of sarcasm and really concentrate it into pill form. ABL is fun, but ought to put all of her stuff through another round of condensing before hitting “Publish.”
eemom
not a fan of banning either, but I can’t believe anyone would miss this guy:
“.
.
.
.
.
.
[same stupid diss of Obama with wording slightly modified to reflect the post topic]”
Keith G
@Alwhite: She’s a lawyer, isn’t she?
Tom Levenson
@Michael D.: See if I buy you anything other than a lump of coal this solstice.
geg6
@Alwhite:
Only to those with a short attention span.
Tom Levenson
@JPL: @geg6: You guys, on the other hand…;)
Tom Levenson
@Alwhite: I got no soul, then.
Alas.
Alack, too.
Keith G
@Tom Levenson: I got your back.
LikeableInMyOwnWay
@General Stuck:
Fronds are good, but I need slaves to fan them at me.
Since I can’t get those (even in this Mormon state), I have to break down and bring electricity into the house.
mr. whipple
I agree. Everyone has a recognizable style and viewpoint. I can read a para or two and guess who the author is. I’m not saying I like ever writer equally, but I like them all.
srv
@J. Michael Neal:
This. Back in the day, you could join a 100+ comment thread late and be entertained for a few hours. Now, not so much. For a multi-poster site like FDL, you just go to the Tbogg tab. Never been anywhere else there. Here, I might loathe two FP’ers and ignore a third, but enough FP’ers are worth the time – it’s actually sad when someone like dengre has a great post that we all would have spent hours on, and now it gets washed out quickly.
I know the FP’ers here don’t coordinate at all, so I’m not implying they deliberately step on each other, but if John wants all this freaking content to win the morning, afternoon, evening and late-night, either establish some posting policy or bring in an editor.
Catsy
@J. Michael Neal:
This persuades me. There should be a line between “so worthless I’ve filtered him out” and “so worthless he has no business existing here as a commenter”.
But in his case, that’s a pretty thin line.
WyldPirate
@J. Michael Neal:
Cool. Just checking.
I don’t need any “defenders”. I will point out things and people I think are stupid and don’t really give a shit if some folks here think or say the same of me.
This place has a lot of fucking pretentious pricks around here that want to have their little “country club” where everyone agrees with each other. the most humorous–and full of shit people–in this crew are the “pie-eaters”. The blue-blood Barbara Bushes of blogistan whose beautiful minds can’t be soiled.
Alwhite
@Oscar Leroy:
What was so bad about FDL, what is too often what is so bad about Obama & many Dems is that they use and reinforce wingnut talking points when making their arguments. FDL teaming up with Grover Fuckin Norquist? Hell ya that is wrong & needs to be slapped down.
Martin
@The Other Chuck: This.
The point of having a discussion area is to put discussion there. That shouldn’t exempt FPers. Come down and talk with us and make your case there.
Front page posts should be triggered by external and largely new information to which you are replying. If there are two TSA front page posts in a day, they should relate to two individually significant external events or writeups.
If the concern is that these discussions are getting too long (sympathetic to people with slower connections/browsers/reading on their phone, etc.) then simply create a new FP post as a continuation but not as a rebuttal and close comments in the previous one.
One pet peeve that I will vocalize (I try to not make a habit of complaining about house rules where I am a guest) is that I regularly find myself in 3 or 4 discussions on the same topic across different threads because halfway into a discussion another FP showed up on the same topic.
Pangloss
I thought that was the Festivus “Airing of the Grievances.”
arguingwithsignposts
@Corner Stone:
CS, I only mentioned it because it was exactly the same sentiment mentioned in the e-mail, and DougJ agreed with you later in the comment thread.
I do think the back-and-forth can get a little overboard on the FP, though.
apologies for the confusion.
LikeableInMyOwnWay
@LikeableInMyOwnWay:
I am at the digestion phase right now.
I am at elimination minus 12:00:10.
Updates as necessary.
Poopyman
I wish to complain that there is too much complaining going on in this thread.
That is all.
curious
@Elia: i agree. the republicans in power are still doing and planning a depressing amount of destructive nonsense. please keep the focus on exposing and mocking them, and disregard kept libertarian apologists and firebaggers. the latter are actually allies. the former are fish in a barrel — really long-winded fish in a barrel.
ChrisNYC
@Mike Goetz: Second.
Also, DougJ, fantastic title for this post. Except that song’s in my head now.
LikeableInMyOwnWay
@srv:
Don’t agree. A good flame war between FPers would be the best thing that ever happened to this place.
Solidarity is about the most boring and assholish thing on earth in commentary. It’s bad enough that bloggers, like tv pundits, make space for each other like little old ladies on a bus.
Let’s get some Fuck You on. Come on, you know you want it.
Keith G
@WyldPirate: How old are you? I mean really?
When that is the opening of the main idea of a/your comment it leaves the impression that you are…well…just not all that self aware. Perhaps you could do better.
chopper
@WyldPirate:
lol, that’s the worst 3rd grade attempt at a comeback i’ve heard this month.
Redshift
@geg6:
This, and
@J. Michael Neal:
this. The conversation is the thing that gives it life, and a strong community also makes it harder for trolls to derail the conversation.
chopper
@Oscar Leroy:
heh. in all seriousness, cole could post a recipe for brownies and wyld would be all ‘hey, speaking of dark things that aren’t good for you, obama said today…’
schrodinger's cat
DougJ@ top
Why not some more posts on Math. I remember you had done one on the winner of the Fields medal.
cmorenc
This thread IS precisely the circle-jerk the OP complains of. Have some chicken soup and get back to usefully substantive and informative blogging.
You think the right-wing blogs are diverting their energies into such useless self-flagellating navel-gazing? For sure, they regularly divert their energies into numerous self-deceiving fulminations driven by ideological faith rather than actual empirical fact, but nonetheless they do NOT waste their energy on self-flagellating navel-gazing or circle-jerking. Maybe buggery and hiring prostitutes to engage them while wearing diapers, but not circle-jerking.
Nellcote
@srv:
Blame it on short attention span commenters instead.
srv
@LikeableInMyOwnWay: I want it in the comments, not trying to figure out if I need to follow Ed’s post, or Annie Laurie’s response, or DougJ’s response to her, Ed’s followup, or John’s projectile vomiting on the commentariat in a fifth post.
You RSS script kiddies may be able to follow all that, but if there’s going to be a knock-down drag out, I want it on one lawn, and not have to carry my lawn chair all over the damn neighborhood.
eemom
omg — Wyld is really Sarah Palin!
WereBear
Well, yes. ED Kain has a wonderful passive/aggressive thing going where he:
Writes a post, it’s full of stupid, but since he won’t comment tearing it apart gets to be too much like picking on someone with serious challenges and then the fun is gone.
It also infuriates a front pager, who feels moved to comment, but putting in in the comment threads really seems like bigfooting, and now the whole blog is full of ED Kain.
As an illustration of what’s wrong with Libertarianism it’s flat marvy. But at this point it’s like a movie about boredom that makes its point by being boring.
That’s not art.
curious
@Catsy: not sure if this has been answered before but why does edk post here? i feel bad about all the flak he gets (deserved or not) based on the sheer volume. has he said this is in any way rewarding? i’m not sure what he’s getting out of this endeavor.
LikeableInMyOwnWay
@srv:
Yes, I understand that you need to keep it simple. Complexity is what killed Rome. God forbid anyone should have to keep track of two trains of thought at the same time. I mean, that’s …. wait a minute, is that hot fudge?
Slurp.
Anyway, I have no idea what RSS script is. Is it septic safe?
DougJ
@cmorenc:
From what I’ve seen on them, yes, but with less self-flagellation and even more navel-gazing, though Reagan-gazing might be a more accurate description. They spend half their time talking about what it means to be a “real conservative”.
rootless_e
@Oscar Leroy: They are liars, slanderers, friends of Grover Norquist, and boring beyond all imagination.
And that’s their good side.
WyldPirate
@Keith G:
Go back up the thread and read the conversation between J. Patrick Neal and Catsy the fucking pie-eater.
Now i really don’t give a shit what people think of me here. I’m not friends with anyone here. I'[m not looking to form an alliance with anyone, nor am I looking to be part of the cliquish crowd of Obotomized apologists. I wouldn’t lose a wink of sleep if I never read this blog again after this post.
What I find pretentious is a couple of douchebags discussing who they think their opinion is so important that they should determine who should be eliminated from the blog as either commenters or Front Pagers. It’s not their goddamned decision. It’s JC’s and we’re all here at his invite until we find out otherwise.
Now of course I’ll defend their right to say what they are saying. That’s all good with me. They think I have nothing useful to say, well that’;s their opinion and they are entitled to it. They have made so miniscule of an impression on me with their comments that I can never recall J. Patrick Neal ever posting, much less any worthwhile argument he’s made. Catsy, basically makes no contribution in my view either other than being a worthless pie-eating bitch. That’s my opinion.
Does that clear things up for you?
WyldPirate
@chopper:
Ah. Nice to see one of my very own blog stalkers.
I don’t know how I could go on without you and General Stuck, chopper.
WyldPirate
@eemom:
Damn. My cover is blown. ;)
Don’t tell Ellie. She’ll be pissed that I’m getting paid so much by the Koch brothers to come over here and upset the BJ thread apple cart at 200+ posts into the thread.
Steeplejack
I agree that front-pagers should make an effort to comment in other front-pagers’ threads rather than put up a new post that is basically a disagreement with, or a comment on, another post. If E.D. Kain can’t (or won’t) respond in the comment thread of his own posts, readers should keep that in mind and either live with it or not waste their energy demolishing his specious arguments. I agree that he should respond, but you can’t force him to. Someone upthread made the telling point that his infamous “ombudsman” statement was in a workday comment on another blog. But maybe his workplace filter blocks only DFH sites like Balloon Juice.
I like the addition of the new front-pagers, although I’m not always interested in every post by every one of them (or those of the “original” front-pagers either). But, hey, that’s what the scroll button is for. Ditto for irritating commenters: just scroll on by, get the pie filter, or whatever. And, as an old white guy, I like the addition of non-old-white-guy voices to the blog. If this blog could steal Ta-Nehisi Coates away from The Atlantic, I would be in hog heaven. I love his stuff, but I don’t get over there often because the comment structure is very frustrating and hard to follow. I would love to see him and Dengre do a long joint thing on race. It would be like Miles and Trane!
As a housekeeping thing, I wish that the front-pagers would check the current “open thread” status before throwing up a new one. Sometimes they occur too close together, and it does get confusing trying to figure out where the action is, or hopping among competing open threads that are still active.
Finally, I think we all may be in a slough of battle fatigue or something right now. The election was a marker for the halfway point of Obama’s (hopefully first) term, and it is wearying to see how hard won the successes were and to see that the Republicans are still unrepentantly aroar with obstructionism and complete bullshit. Which seems to be working. Ugh. The real battle will be rejoined in January, so we are left with a “phony war” interim which just seems to be irritating everyone (more than usual). So maybe it is a good time to polish the brightwork on the blog, tune the engines and make sure everything is shipshape.
Okay, I’m off to eat Mexican food. I’ve been starving myself all day. I’ll have a marg or three in honor of my BJ homies. Los Tíos, here I come!
goblue72
The only solution is a last man standing cage match between the FP’ers, with John in the role of MC. (referees being beside the point in a cage match). My sense is ABL would win, as I suspect she’d be willing to bite.
But in all seriousness (if that’s possible at BJ), I really don’t get the beef – people are completely obsessed with Big Daddy Kain as if having a softcore libertarian somehow is an offense to our collective sensibilities. So what if doesn’t stick around for an hour in the comments – he’s got a life and is busy.
As for the often fact-challenged nature of some of his posts – absolutely. But with the exception of maybe Tom L, its not as if most of the other more strident FP’ers don’t also have similar issues with over-simplistic analysis, selective fact-picking and the like. But since those FPers tend to support and confirm the biases of the average BJ’er, nobody notices.
Seriously, grow a pair. And if you don’t like a particular post, change the channel. (or just wait 15 minutes for a new post). Its the Internet for pete’s sake – its not like you don’t have any other options.
geg6
@Tom Levenson:
I hope you know that I meant “what a get for the blog!” and not “what a stupid git.”
I’m thrilled you’re here.
matoko_chan
@Catsy:
this.
its why Sully sucks up to Douthat, even tho he knows in his soul that Ross would cheerfully see him and his beautiful husband nailed to a buck fence in Wyoming. its the same reason Sully gives mercy
fuckslinks and welfare epics to McArdle.McArdle is just ED in drag.
Cole and Sully are both weepy-desperate for some signs of sanity on the right.
that said, being JCs blog an all.
more power to him.
but its like when you dumbass juicers defended ED’s right to endorse the fetus=slave argument.
that is a stupid, unredeemable argument, and you asshats were too fucking polite to crush him.
that has been going on ever since.
meanwhile, you run off an authentic REAL commenter like MMonaides with interesting things to say, instead of crappy regurgitated conservative dead-white-guy pablum.
bullshytt dumbass cudlips.
you deserve ED. he totally belongs here.
J.
@J: Apology accepted.
Keith G
@WyldPirate: Thanks for your response. I do wonder, though, why bother?
What good do you obtain from clicking on this site?
Mystical Chick
Sticking up for ABL here – I dig her. Other stuff, not as much but like everyone’s said (ad nauseum), the scroll wheel works fine for me.
ino shinola
Yeah, me too.
I have no problem with there being a libertarian around, but if you’re going to be The Front Page Libertarian on this blog, you really need to be able to mix it up in the comments.
For some reason (probably just sheer cussedness) commenters here are a leetle hypersensitive when someone of the (ahem) libertarian persuasion spouts something purely dogmatic and later contradicts himself.
slag
@goblue72:
You act as if this is a bug and not a feature. Of course people notice. But knowing your audience matters.
When you’re writing to persuade, then you should try to be persuasive–laying out your case. When you’re writing to commiserate, then you should be striking a nerve of the collective–not laying out your case. Those are two very different styles of arguing that require different approaches. A lot of the FPers are putting an interesting spin on things that many of us already think and feel. Telling us point-by-point what we already understand would undermine the goal.
That said, I can’t imagine any other FPer throwing out an “Abolish the TSA”-like post without a serious re-think post after a very short while. If anything, an issue like that would be posed as a question for debate and would play out as such.
Really, there is no comparison here. Most of the FPers have posted some stupid stuff in their lives, but only one of them seemingly refuses to learn from the experience.
DaBomb
I like the new posters for the most part. It’s nice to have varied perspectives and opinions on the front page.
If I don’t like what a front pager is saying then I tend to skip the post.
There are some fps I like more than others, that’s why my mouse has a scroll, I can move right along.
I would suggest spacing out the posts, so there is a cogent conversation that is developed within the comments.
And please more snark!!
xian
@cleek: wait, how does he manage to comment on other blogs through his impregnable employer firewall?
Death Panel Truck
@WyldPirate:
Wrong. Jane Hamsher and her minions self-identify as Firebaggers.
Your constant whinging aligns perfectly with Jane’s. So if the epithet fits, wear it like a jailhouse tattoo. Otherwise STFU and go the fuck away.
JenJen
@Lysana: My thoughts exactly. Nice post, Lysana.
LikeableInMyOwnWay
Right on! Those thugs blocking worthy women from starting their own blogs and blowing away those narrow minded white men should be dragged off the playing field and ….
uh …. should be, uh ….
sh…. uh …
never mind.
Calming Influence
@srv:
A most clever and fitting analogy, and one just added to my quiver of repartee!
[takes pretentious sip of champagne with pinky raised]
Church Lady
When I first started reading this blog, it was John, Tim and Michael posting. Good times. Then Michael left and DougJ came on board. Still good times. Then John started adding additional front pagers, seemingly almost weekly. Good times over.
A lot of the posts are boring and many of the best (and most entertaining) commenters have left. Cute stories about Lily, Tunch, Rosie and John cleaning his bathroom naked have slowed down to a crawl.
I wish Balloon Juice circa 2006 would come back.
Andy K
@WyldPirate:
Other than TNC and Fallows, I don’t either. But I do read the blog posts here, so I understand the reference. Maybe if you actually read the posts here- instead of treating any thread that drops as nothing but another opportunity to to throw ill-conceived haymakers at so-called Obots- you’d know it, too.
asiangrrlMN
@Steeplejack: I agree with the Steepman for the most part. Damn. This thread is nowhere near as much fun as the later ED thread. I like the new posters very much. I think ED has potential. I think every front-pager adds value to the blog, even if I don’t read them all. I have been scrolling past all the FPers bickering because it doesn’t interest me (the topics, mostly). Comment in the comment sections of each other’s post unless you have a completely different take on a subject AND (this is the important part) it’s something that you would write about anyway. Otherwise, go about your merry business and do your thing.
Blogreeder
No!! Simplistic snark?!! At Balloon-Juice?!! Funniest thing I’ve read here in a long time. Thanks DougJ!