• Menu
  • Skip to primary navigation
  • Skip to main content
  • Skip to primary sidebar

Before Header

  • About Us
  • Lexicon
  • Contact Us
  • Our Store
  • ↑
  • ↓
  • ←
  • →

Balloon Juice

Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Let’s finish the job.

Nothing worth doing is easy.

“Jesus paying for the sins of everyone is an insult to those who paid for their own sins.”

Impressively dumb. Congratulations.

But frankly mr. cole, I’ll be happier when you get back to telling us to go fuck ourselves.

“What are Republicans afraid of?” Everything.

There is no compromise when it comes to body autonomy. You either have it or you don’t.

“Why isn’t this Snickers bar only a nickle?”

Take your GOP plan out of the witness protection program.

I was promised a recession.

We’ll be taking my thoughts and prayers to the ballot box.

Something needs to be done about our bogus SCOTUS.

I see no possible difficulties whatsoever with this fool-proof plan.

They traffic in fear. it is their only currency. if we are fearful, they are winning.

Motto for the House: Flip 5 and lose none.

Do not shrug your shoulders and accept the normalization of untruths.

Republicans want to make it harder to vote and easier for them to cheat.

No Justins, No Peace

Wow, you are pre-disappointed. How surprising.

Stamping your little feets and demanding that they see how important you are? Not working anymore.

How can republicans represent us when they don’t trust women?

… riddled with inexplicable and elementary errors of law and fact

Peak wingnut was a lie.

The revolution will be supervised.

Mobile Menu

  • Winnable House Races
  • Donate with Venmo, Zelle & PayPal
  • Site Feedback
  • War in Ukraine
  • Submit Photos to On the Road
  • Politics
  • On The Road
  • Open Threads
  • Topics
  • Balloon Juice 2023 Pet Calendar (coming soon)
  • COVID-19 Coronavirus
  • Authors
  • About Us
  • Contact Us
  • Lexicon
  • Our Store
  • Politics
  • Open Threads
  • War in Ukraine
  • Garden Chats
  • On The Road
  • 2021-22 Fundraising!
You are here: Home / Politics / An Unexamined Scandal / How Many More Times Must I Hear From This Witness?

How Many More Times Must I Hear From This Witness?

by Kay|  December 2, 201010:11 am| 83 Comments

This post is in: An Unexamined Scandal, Domestic Politics, Gay Rights are Human Rights, Blatant Liars and the Lies They Tell, Flash Mob of Hate, I Can't Believe We're Losing to These People

FacebookTweetEmail

Always a trusted source:

Did retired Lt. Col. Oliver North really just say that a repeal of Don’t Ask Don’t Tell could mean a return to the draft? Yes, in an appearance today on Fox News’ Happening Now, North said DADT repeal could mean a loss of 30 percent of military personnel, and that an all-volunteer force could not survive such a loss.

Seeing his face takes me back:

Twenty years ago this summer, a nation sat in rapt attention as a lesson in geography, international affairs, Washington political intrigue and White House mismanagement was carried live across the airwaves.

When the time came for North’s testimony, he proclaimed the diversion “a neat idea.” An approving television audience agreed. North, who master-minded illegal and unconstitutional executive branch schemes, became a national hero. Lectures and book deals followed. North was an instant hit. Thousands of letters and telegrams poured into congressional offices, most supporting the patriotic Marine.

Well, Oliver North wasn’t a hit with me, instant or otherwise.

I was living in coastal North Carolina, sporadically employed by an alcoholic lucky-heir southerner who owned a commercial greenhouse during the Iran-Contra hearings. If my employer was sober on any given day we were called to work and if he wasn’t, we weren’t. Peter wasn’t sober a whole lot that summer.

It was hot. I kept the front door open and sat in what we called “the front room” and watched the hearings. I watched so consistently that the mail carrier once stuck his head in and asked me what was going on. He wanted an update.

Sitting in a tiny frame house in coastal North Carolina, I was repelled by Oliver North. Each time he would widen his eyes in feigned innocence and his face would assume that martyred, sanctimonious expression that he favors I came to dislike and distrust him just a little more.

Just one of many, many times I was completely out of step with the nation.

FacebookTweetEmail
Previous Post: « Almost Back to the Land of the Living and… What the hell?!
Next Post: When something goes right, it’s likely to lose me »

Reader Interactions

83Comments

  1. 1.

    PurpleGirl

    December 2, 2010 at 10:18 am

    I didn’t watch those hearings, actually I don’t watch most hearings as I’d probably throw something at the TV and break it. However, I read about what North was saying and I despised him. I continued to despise him as he became a recipient of wingnut welfare. I still despise him.

  2. 2.

    Cap'n Phealy

    December 2, 2010 at 10:20 am

    I was in London during North’s testimony, taking a class through UC Extension, along with a bunch of other Yanks. We were housed at the Univ. of London, and would usually all end up in the room outside the cafeteria watching news on the Beeb before dinner.

    During coverage of Ollie’s star time, some of were us sitting in the back of the room (naturally) snarking away, when an older lady turned around and shushed us, saying “Colonel North is speaking.”

    Looking back, I should have seen the Shrub years and the Teabaggers coming from that instant.

  3. 3.

    jo6pac

    December 2, 2010 at 10:22 am

    Oh good old ollie back in the day when he was chasing fawn around the basement both coked out their minds. Boy those were the days.

  4. 4.

    J

    December 2, 2010 at 10:30 am

    Kay, a good part of the nation was with you.

    Holding hearings to investigate crimes and misdeeds by those in power: what a quaintly old-fashioned idea…like boys in short trousers, women wearing corsets, paddle steamers…

  5. 5.

    Cat Lady

    December 2, 2010 at 10:31 am

    Nixon should never have been pardoned. His pardoning enabled the IOKIYAR and all the Republican lawlessness that followed. Fuck you Gerald Ford.

  6. 6.

    Bob L

    December 2, 2010 at 10:31 am

    North served in the ’70s. Ya’ don’t think social mores have changed a little in the last forty years Ollie, don’t ya’?

  7. 7.

    Craig

    December 2, 2010 at 10:38 am

    Turning little liars into heroes, it’s what they’ve always done.

  8. 8.

    kay

    December 2, 2010 at 10:42 am

    @J:

    Kay, a good part of the nation was with you.

    I was really young, my life was chaotic (by choice, mostly) and I didn’t follow the news. I learned about the scandal through the hearings process, which is actually not a bad way to learn something complex. I came into them clean. I didn’t have a whole lot of opinions.

    I was almost acting as a juror, looking back. There’s nothing I could watch now where I would enter like that.

  9. 9.

    soonergrunt

    December 2, 2010 at 10:44 am

    My father in law was at the Naval Academy as a second-year (a Junior) when North was a Plebe (freshman). At the academies, the upperclassmen teach the lowerclassmen the military and academy customs and physical training stuff.
    He remembers the general assessment of North as “a weaselly little fuck.”

  10. 10.

    Culture of Truth

    December 2, 2010 at 10:45 am

    I also had a job that summer that involved exposure to the hearings on tv. I was already an active liberal, so no surprise, I found his testimony about all the Reagan crimes compelling. According to Ollie, Reagan lied. But they’re both heroes for the right so that should tell you something.

  11. 11.

    MaineDem

    December 2, 2010 at 10:47 am

    North never was popular. But it’s true that his supporters created the impression he was and that led some members of Congress to respond to that. There are two books on the myth of North’s popularity and how conservative groups played the media. They are:

    Muffled Echoes: Oliver North and the Politics of Public Opinion by Amy Fried

    Becoming Citizens in the Age of Television: How Americans Challenged the Media and Seized Political Initiative during the Iran-Contra Debate by David Thelen

  12. 12.

    Svensker

    December 2, 2010 at 10:49 am

    I was a conservative at the time and thought Ollie North was a lying, corrupt, little sack of shit. The fact that he became a hero on the Right was one of those things that got me thinking about who I was hanging out with.

  13. 13.

    catclub

    December 2, 2010 at 10:50 am

    North was a weaselly fuck, but the he was just the distraction from Poindexter and Casey.

    And J @ 4 re: hearings and such.

    There was the botching on purpose of the hearings so that North does not actually get convicted of anything.

    Similar to Ted Stevens case – prosecutor incompetence so bad that they throw out the case. I just wonder if they planned for it to happen sooner so he would get re-elected, but the timing did not work out.

  14. 14.

    Pongo

    December 2, 2010 at 10:51 am

    Most compelling part of those hearings for me was when Daniel Inouye had the opportunity to confront North about his sanctimonious patriotism. It was hard not to be moved by a guy whose arm was missing and who was a decorated WWII vet suggest that some low-level, self-serving marine was not exactly the picture of a true patriot. But then, again, Inouye is a democrat so, you know, a socialist. Anything he’s done for his country pales in comparison to the illegal activities of a butt-kissing desk jockey.

  15. 15.

    Ross Hershberger

    December 2, 2010 at 10:52 am

    Only overreaching by the government saved North from being convicted of very serious crimes. In my book he’s still a criminal.

  16. 16.

    catclub

    December 2, 2010 at 10:54 am

    @Svensker:
    The same people who laud Ollie North claim that any dealings with Iran are dealing with terrorists – which was exactly what Ollie North was doing!

    But since it was Ollie North, he’s a good guy so that is ok.

    … something about cognitive dissonance and dead irony.

  17. 17.

    Pongo

    December 2, 2010 at 10:54 am

    @J: Not sure I miss them so much. It was early reality TV, where the public ‘voted,’ by public opinion, on who won the hearing. In the North case, it turned him into an undeserving hero. Plus, these days they seem only to be used as opportunities to share the latest rightwing talking points over and over and over again.

  18. 18.

    Redshift

    December 2, 2010 at 11:01 am

    My Marine father-in-law couldn’t stand North because he wore a winter uniform to summer hearings in order to look more impressive, and especially because he cried on cue, which no true Marine would ever do.

    To me, North will always be a convicted felon who got off on a technicality. I expect he still parrots the GOP line of being “tough on crime” for other people, though.

  19. 19.

    Paris

    December 2, 2010 at 11:01 am

    a loss of 30 percent of military personnel … an all-volunteer force could not survive such a loss.

    Another benefit of eliminating DADT

  20. 20.

    Emma

    December 2, 2010 at 11:03 am

    Contemptible doesn’t even begin to describe the sob. But he served his purpose, which was to use the honorable uniform of the United States military to cover up the crimes of his superiors. Weasel.

  21. 21.

    Mike in NC

    December 2, 2010 at 11:05 am

    For people with the right(wing) connections — Ollie North and G. Gordon Liddy being the most notorious — being a traitorous piece of shit has absolutley no downside. Granted, before FOX News came along they had to work a little bit harder to pimp their books and radio shows.

  22. 22.

    Lowkey

    December 2, 2010 at 11:07 am

    I can still vividly recall my sense of relief when North, despite the unprecedented out-of-state wingnut financial support, lost his campaign to become one of my senators.

  23. 23.

    Brachiator

    December 2, 2010 at 11:07 am

    Yes, in an appearance today on Fox News’ Happening Now…

    This just demonstrates how Fox Viewers have been conditioned to reflexively go into patriotic spasms whenever someone is trucked out who was in any way connected to Ronnie the Reagan.

  24. 24.

    Culture of Truth

    December 2, 2010 at 11:07 am

    North was rescued by card-carrying members of the ACLU.

  25. 25.

    Edward D Rockstein

    December 2, 2010 at 11:15 am

    I, for one, support a return to the draft–a draft with no exemptions. The nation should not be involved in military actions which the vast majority do not support and will not sacrifice for. Yes, I am an honorably discharged U.S. Army veteran of voluntary, active service.

  26. 26.

    Mnemosyne

    December 2, 2010 at 11:15 am

    @Pongo:

    It was early reality TV, where the public ‘voted,’ by public opinion, on who won the hearing. In the North case, it turned him into an undeserving hero.

    IIRC, polls at the time said by a 60-40 majority that North should go to jail. It was the media that turned him into a hero.

    That was one of the first times where I saw the disconnect between the story that the media was constructing and actual reality. And it only got worse from there.

  27. 27.

    Damned at Random

    December 2, 2010 at 11:16 am

    I remember North lecturing Sen Inouye about patriotism and was surprised that he assumed that would win him sympathy. Didn’t everybody know that Sen Inouye lost an arm in Italy and was awarded the Bronze Star? Apparently I overestimated the public at large and Ollie knew exactly how to play them.

  28. 28.

    daveX99

    December 2, 2010 at 11:20 am

    Just one of many, many times I was completely out of step with the nation.

    Oh my god, yes. I’m not sure I even understand people as a whole, let alone the subset of humans who identify as Americans.

    That subset however, is fucking crazy.

    –dave.

  29. 29.

    J

    December 2, 2010 at 11:21 am

    @kay: I was well into my 20’s myself. I remember as an early teen watching the Watergate hearings and being riveted.

    @Pongo: I disagree. The hearings were far from perfect. The Reagan govt didn’t fall. North’s testimony, such as it was, couldn’t be used in criminal prosecutions. In a minor way, North became a hero to some people, probably the same crowd that admired Lt. Calley. Fawn Hall had her 15 minutes of fame. But important truths were aired in public. Impressive voices (some of them Republican, e.g., Lowell Weicker) were raised in defense of the rule of law and accountability. Many, probably most, of those in power tried to avoid putting these ideas in practice, but they had at least to pay lip service to them. There were even some prosecutions. The unspeakably odious Elliot Abrams, for instance. It was too little, but it was something. Contrast the present: war criminals walk the land; the rule of law is in a complete shambles. There has not even been the semblance of an accounting. ‘We must look forward, not back’ . The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity and are calling all the shots so far as I can see.

  30. 30.

    Shalimar

    December 2, 2010 at 11:26 am

    North, who master-minded illegal and unconstitutional executive branch schemes, became a national hero.

    Do we have any polls from that period on North’s popularity? The guy couldn’t even win a statewide election in Virginia during a Republican tidalwave year, I seriously doubt he was ever a hero to anyone who isn’t a teabagger now.

    Edited to add: I think he was a “national hero” in the same sense Palin is now. He had a huge following among hard-core Republicans but the majority of the population hated him.

  31. 31.

    Suffern ACE

    December 2, 2010 at 11:27 am

    @Damned at Random: I was only 15 at the time and seduced by that crap. To use the modern terms, I was convinced that Inouye was a DFH. Looking back, has there ever been a Democratic war hero whose service record has been ignored and whose patriotism hasn’t been questioned since McCarthy?

  32. 32.

    Xenos

    December 2, 2010 at 11:31 am

    Bloom County nailed the whole North phenomenon. A shame it is not online somewhere.

  33. 33.

    wenchacha

    December 2, 2010 at 11:32 am

    Ollie North – major Douchebag of Liberty. Everything about him is creepy and manipulative.

    Horrors if we lose all the super-Xtianists from the military. No more Jesus-aroma filling the halls of the Pentagon. What a shame. A draft would SUCK BALLS but might help end the freaking wars without end, which would be excellent.

    I can’t remember who, but somebody in Congress made the same dire prediction about DADT in the last week or so. So Ollie isn’t even original, no surprise. At least he got the memo.

    And a big GFY to John McCain, also, too.

  34. 34.

    Mnemosyne

    December 2, 2010 at 11:32 am

    @J:

    There were even some prosecutions. The unspeakably odious Elliot Abrams, for instance.

    You do know that Elliot Abrams worked for the Bush II administration, right? He helped organize the attempted coup in Venezuela in 2002, FFS.

    There is rot in our system, but it doesn’t date from when Obama took office. War criminals are perfectly respectable to the Village as long as a Republican is in office.

  35. 35.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    December 2, 2010 at 11:32 am

    @Shalimar:

    The guy couldn’t even win a statewide election in Virginia during a Republican tidalwave year

    Meh, he woulda easily beat Robb had it not been for Republican Marshall Coleman jumping into the race as an independent (and also getting the backing of Senator John Warner.) If anyone rejected North in Virginia, it was the Republican establishment.

  36. 36.

    Roy G

    December 2, 2010 at 11:33 am

    Yup, conspiring with Israel to sell arms to Iran and sell cocaine in the US and use the profits to buy arms for Central American fascists is the very definition of a Patriot®

    When this gang of criminals got off easy in the IC hearings, it paved the way for the mess we’re in now, just as Enron emboldened the finance grifters.

    Oh, and Sarah Palin probably hugs a picture of Ollie every night in bed.

  37. 37.

    WyldPirate

    December 2, 2010 at 11:38 am

    The Iran-Contra hearings were a pivotal point in my political outlook.

    I, too, was in coastal North Carolina at the time. Throughout the 80’s as an undergrad in ROTC and as an active duty officer in the Army, I was a gung-ho, kill commies for Uncle Ronnie dyed in the wool Republican.

    This all began to change sometime towards the end of my stint on Active Duty in ’88. I began to pay attention to what was going on in Central America with the dealings between the Contras and the Sandanistas. I began to really question just why in the hell we were intervering with their internal affairs. Then there was the debacle of the S&L scandals and the clear ties between it and deregulation and lack of oversight in the industry.

    The Republicans lost me for good at the national level in between the Fall of ’88 when I voted for GHWB and the end of the Iran-Contra hearings in ’90. I began to see them as corrupt and bound and determined to undermine the best interests of the country for the benefit of the wealthy and well-connected.

    I have voted for a grand total of one republican since 1990 at the statewide level.

  38. 38.

    Josie

    December 2, 2010 at 11:39 am

    Kay – I watched the hearings and reacted to Col. North exactly as you described. I was and am astounded by the number of people who watched those hearings and saw something else. To this day, he turns my stomach. In a way, he was our first grifter and pointed the way to those who are now raising griftiness to an art form.

  39. 39.

    Elizabelle

    December 2, 2010 at 11:40 am

    What would be so wrong about a return to the draft, especially for 30% of the armed services?

    A great problem is Americans willing to send someone else’s kid off to fight and maybe die in a misbegotten war. And not caring whether traumatic brain injury vets, or amputees, or any vets get continuing care on their return. Especially if they gave up their future so others could sit on the couch and whine about “government overreach.”

    Be allowed to overturn DADT AND put all or most American families on the line for the insane political views of half the country?

    That sounds like win to me.

  40. 40.

    WyldPirate

    December 2, 2010 at 11:42 am

    @J:

    Contrast the present: war criminals walk the land; the rule of law is in a complete shambles. There has not even been the semblance of an accounting. ‘We must look forward, not back’ . The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity and are calling all the shots so far as I can see.

    Yep. We have definitely regressed as a society since those times of even Reagan.

    the rich, well-connected and priveleged have always gotten breaks and the benefit of the doubt when compared to your average citizen. However, it has gotten exponentially worse in my lifetime. their seems to be no accountability whatsover for those that possess wealth and power.

  41. 41.

    Chris

    December 2, 2010 at 11:43 am

    Somewhat OT, but if we really wanted to declare a war on terror, the first thing we should have done was to arrest Oliver North and extradite him to Nicaragua to face charges for terrorism, with a heartfelt apology from the United States and a “sorry, but now that we know what it’s like to have our civilians murdered by a bunch of psychos playing politics, we empathize with you and would like to give you justice.”

    Yeah, I know. But I can dream. The foundation for the rule of law is that all criminals be treated equally. In any just world, Osama Bin Laden and Oliver North should be facing the same trial.

  42. 42.

    Bnut

    December 2, 2010 at 11:46 am

    I hope that ratfuck has an EGA tattoo on his body, cuz I’d like to deal with it the way motorcycle gangs do when someone leaves the club.

  43. 43.

    twiffer

    December 2, 2010 at 11:51 am

    wait, you can just leave the armed forces whenever you want? like quitting a job? i’ve never served, so i’m not up on this stuff, but i thought you had to serve a certain number of years, and if you tried to leave they put you in jail.

    so, how is 30% of our armed forces going to suddenly disappear? and is this more or less than whatever % was likely kicked about prior to racial intergration in the armed forces?

  44. 44.

    Chris

    December 2, 2010 at 11:52 am

    @Elizabelle:

    I agree completely.

    One of my biggest problem with the wars of the last thirty years (since the Reagan age) is that they’ve been completely consequence-free for the public. Only a small amount of troops get to see combat, and if any of them come home and say anything other than “God bless you all for sending me to kill those Grenadans/Panamanians/Iraqis/Somalis/Serbs/Afghans,” the system just shuts them out. (What happens to the civilians in those countries never even comes up for discussion). The only place we feel the effect of war is when our taxes go up to pay for it, except now they don’t even do that anymore.

    I know this is another point where the public opinion polls would eat me alive, but I want the draft back. If a society makes the choice to go to war, then that entire society should bear the burden.

  45. 45.

    Skepticat

    December 2, 2010 at 11:53 am

    @Josie: What Josie said.

  46. 46.

    Southern Beale

    December 2, 2010 at 11:58 am

    Once again I’m reminded about how visually driven our society is. Oliver North is a nice looking man, Fawn Hall was a nice looking woman. Sarah Palin is a nice looking woman.

    If North or Palin looked like trolls, they would have been historical footnotes. Instead the GOP makes them stars.

    Sad but true.

  47. 47.

    kth

    December 2, 2010 at 11:59 am

    It’s important to remember that North was convicted (before it was overturned on procedural grounds, not actual innocence), not merely of joining a cabal to subvert the clearly-expressed will of Congress, but of common thievery: he helped himself to a nice perimeter fence out of that money from the arms sales.

  48. 48.

    debbie

    December 2, 2010 at 12:02 pm

    @Mike in NC:

    I actually thought Oliver North made Liddy look sane.

    @ Southern Beale:

    I think it was his uniform and not his boyish good looks that got North all that attention.

  49. 49.

    Mike G

    December 2, 2010 at 12:14 pm

    Speaking of right-wing criminals:

    Nigeria to Charge Cheney
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-11902489

    Something about Halliburton and bribery.

    Of course, being charged with bribery in Nigeria is like getting a speeding ticket in the Indy 500.

    Our ‘public servants’ in DC will inevitably quash this, but the thought of that rat bastard rotting in a Nigerian prison brought me a moment of satisfaction.

  50. 50.

    Bob L

    December 2, 2010 at 12:18 pm

    What puzzles me about the likes of North and Liddy is they are heroes to the Right somehow. Considering how both of them are total screw ups who failures did harm to the administrations they were working and the country for you would think the Right would want to bury them as embarrassments. But I guess North and Liddy look the part of of the noble patriot solider and tough guy covert operative so that’s what counts to the Right.

  51. 51.

    Pangloss

    December 2, 2010 at 12:24 pm

    @Mnemosyne: Yes, but the 40% was almost exclusively White, suburban, and therefore more important than the 60%, which was composed of hippies, minorities, city folk, and Democrats. Ewww!!!

  52. 52.

    Kyle

    December 2, 2010 at 12:26 pm

    @Damned at Random:

    I remember North lecturing Sen Inouye about patriotism and was surprised that he assumed that would win him sympathy. Didn’t everybody know that Sen Inouye lost an arm in Italy and was awarded the Bronze Star?

    For North fans, what they saw was a conservative, southern Christian white man putting an Asian man in his place. A sweet moment of nostalgia for them, for the days when being being white, even if you were uneducated, exploited, stupid trash, put you above any minority.

  53. 53.

    Gravenstone

    December 2, 2010 at 12:26 pm

    Iran-Contra was the wedge that split my young wingnut self away from the Republican party. Something about realizing the doddering old fool I’d gladly voted for barely 2 years prior was actually involved in an act of treason against the country he purported to lead was enough to get it through even my thick skull that the party was wholely corrupt and not fit to govern.

    The fact that this same thought process did not occur to every other Republican at the time should have been our first indication that this country was well and truly damned to endure each and every self inflicted injury we’ve sustained since.

  54. 54.

    Ross Hershberger

    December 2, 2010 at 12:34 pm

    Reagan was the first President I voted for, and the last Republican. I didn’t pay much attention to politics back then and their talking points sounded good enough to me.
    It didn’t last long. It was clear from the hearings that they were willing and eager to do anything they thought they could get away with to achieve their ends. And the endless litany of Reagan ‘not recalling’ ever being in any meeting about the illegal activities was really disturbing. Either he knew and was involved in crimes or he didn’t know and was incompetent to lead.

  55. 55.

    J

    December 2, 2010 at 12:48 pm

    @Mnemosyne: I do indeed know that Abrams was ‘rehabilitated’. For me that was a clear sign–one among many–that something was going terribly wrong. Do you mean to imply that this in some way undermines my point? To my way of thinking, the moral of the story is not that original investigations and prosecutions, however incomplete and imperfect they were, had no point, but rather that the fight must be constantly renewed. There is a magnificent quotation by William Morris, which I wish I could remember, to the effect that nothing is ever permanently gained, the struggle must be constantly renewed and is never over. My point, in response to another commentator, was that we need more of what we had some, but too little of, in the Iran Contra hearings and subsequent prosecutions. I hope you don’t think that I believe that ‘the rot in our system’ ‘date[s] from when Obama took office’. Nothing could be further from the point that I was trying to make.

  56. 56.

    artem1s

    December 2, 2010 at 12:49 pm

    @Edward D Rockstein:

    I’m not military but I agree 100% with you as long as there are NO exemptions at all. My friends think its a crazy notion but I’ve always believed that the more people who are put at risk of suffering the consequences of war the less likely we will have them. And I’ve never understood why my relatives in the military (or any other volunteers) haven’t led a massive revolt about private ‘security’ firms who get paid 3-5 times what an enlistee gets to do the same jobs. Its mercenary at best and IMHO traitorous when it comes to BlackWater ops assaulting their own and regular military personnel and getting off scott free.

    North and his ilk were the foundation of all of the military contractual shenanigans that were pulled after 9/11. Some of us recognized when a traitor was manufacturing a war for his own gain. The nation has now lost the ability to see that ruse while its head is wrapped in the flag and is being entertained daily with airport security circuses.

  57. 57.

    J

    December 2, 2010 at 12:55 pm

    Through the miracle of google, the William Morris quotation that I was trying to remember, which turns out to contain a more complex and interesting thought than I remembered:

    “Men fight and lose the battle, and the thing that they fought for comes about in spite of defeat, and when it comes it turns out not to be what they meant, and other men have to fight for what they meant under another name”

  58. 58.

    Delia

    December 2, 2010 at 12:59 pm

    I was teaching Western Civ as an adjunct in Fullerton, CA and muttering about the hollowing out of the Constitution . . . .

  59. 59.

    Davis X. Machina

    December 2, 2010 at 1:00 pm

    And I’ve never understood why my relatives in the military (or any other volunteers) haven’t led a massive revolt about private ‘security’ firms who get paid 3-5 times what an enlistee gets to do the same jobs.

    Religion. Scripture teaches them otherwise:

    The Gospel according to St. Ronald, Chapter 1, verse 1: Anything private is better than everything public, and so long as one of us, anywhere is covered by a collective bargaining agreement, none of us is truly free.

  60. 60.

    Bill Murray

    December 2, 2010 at 1:15 pm

    @Skepticat:

    What Josie said

    you are no longer a Skepticat but a Pussycat

  61. 61.

    HyperIon

    December 2, 2010 at 1:17 pm

    @Elizabelle wrote :

    That sounds like win to me.

    My thoughts exactly. I yearn for the return of a draft.

    Having your kid drafted (yes, draft women, too) focuses the mind sharply on reasons for war/military action. Most people now just shrug.

  62. 62.

    kommrade reproductive vigor

    December 2, 2010 at 1:20 pm

    Whenever I think of North I hear my mom laughing.

    She cracked up when he started his Tiny Tears impersonation.

  63. 63.

    Colin

    December 2, 2010 at 1:21 pm

    God, I hope he’s right.

  64. 64.

    kommrade reproductive vigor

    December 2, 2010 at 1:24 pm

    @Elizabelle: Except it isn’t going to happen. North wants to pretend the 30% of survey respondents who said the end of DADT would have a negative effect are a) Going to run off screaming, b) All service members, and c) The military experienced huge losses when it integrated.

    He’s full of shit but he can’t go on Faux Snooze and say it’s no big deal. Even shameless whores who are well past their Best By date must eat.

  65. 65.

    Jose Padilla

    December 2, 2010 at 1:36 pm

    @Damned at Random: Senator Inouye was awarded the Medal of Honor for his service in WWII.

  66. 66.

    John

    December 2, 2010 at 1:40 pm

    @Shalimar:

    Yes, exactly. North was running against the not wildly popular Chuck Robb in a massively Republican year. George Allen easily beat Robb six years later in a year much less friendly to the Republicans.

    North, iirc, didn’t even receive John Warner’s endorsement. North only managed 43% of the vote. It was a three way race, but I can’t imagine Coleman took more votes from North than he did from Robb

    The basic fact is that 57% of voters in North’s own quite conservative home state voted against him in a year when the Republicans were spanking the Democrats in most other competitive races. How such a man can be considered a national hero is hard for me to understand.

  67. 67.

    SB Jules

    December 2, 2010 at 1:40 pm

    I thought Ollie was a weaselly fuck too. I was doing some bookkeeping for a retired hollywood designer. I made the “mistake” of saying I thought Ollie was awful and got a lecture from the wife about her days in the OSS and combatting the red menace in southern CA! I really didn’t miss that job at all.

  68. 68.

    Shalimar

    December 2, 2010 at 1:41 pm

    @artem1s:

    And I’ve never understood why my relatives in the military (or any other volunteers) haven’t led a massive revolt about private ‘security’ firms who get paid 3-5 times what an enlistee gets to do the same jobs.

    I have one relative in the military who I have talked with about this. I didn’t understand his reasoning either, something about tougher work that enlisted people couldn’t do or some crap. But he is hoping to be in one of those private firms making much more when he gets out, so that very well may explain it. I assume it is along the same lines as poor people who don’t want rich people to pay taxes because it would be so unfair to them after they win the lottery.

  69. 69.

    asiangrrlMN

    December 2, 2010 at 1:50 pm

    First time I saw North, I thought he was scum. My opinion of him hasn’t changed since. I don’t think he’s good-looking at all (or ever was), but I also don’t think Palin is, either. North should be in jail or exiled or something. The fact that he’s not pisses me the fuck off.

  70. 70.

    jak

    December 2, 2010 at 1:52 pm

    @Mnemosyne:

    That is how I recall it also. North was viewed as a criminal by most people that you talked to.

  71. 71.

    Tokyokie

    December 2, 2010 at 1:55 pm

    20 years ago, I was of the opinion that North and Poindexter’s resignations from the military should not have been accepted and that they should have faced courts martial, not civilian trials, where they could have been convicted of treason and summarily executed. And my opinion hasn’t changed over the years.

    Jose Padilla: Inouye’s Bronze Star was upgraded to a Medal of Honor during the Clinton administration, so at the time of North’s testimony, he was a Bronze Star winner.

  72. 72.

    JohnR

    December 2, 2010 at 2:01 pm

    @Ross Hershberger:

    Either he knew and was involved in crimes or he didn’t know and was incompetent to lead.

    I said exactly that to anybody I ran into, and they all assured me that it was OK, since he was acting with the best interests of the US in mind. “You’re too naive and idealistic” may have been thrown in there as well, along with “That’s just how things get done in Washington.” I guess my concern about subverting the Constitution and the law in order to bypass Congress was completely misplaced. Poor Nixon. Even then he was kicking himself for being ahead of his time.

  73. 73.

    Onkel Bob

    December 2, 2010 at 2:04 pm

    @Ross 15

    Only overreaching by the government saved North from being convicted of very serious crimes. In my book he’s still a criminal

    Actually it was favorable treatment. If subjected to courts martial, North would have been easily convicted of unauthorized destruction of classified material. Even with the congressional testimony, all the prosecutor needed to ask was:
    Do you have these documents? Do you have authorization for the destruction of these documents?
    Neither question requires him to incriminate himself, neither one can be said to be aided by immunized testimony. He committed a serious breach of the UCMJ and should have received a BCD for it. He was spared military justice for reasons only the Pentagon can answer.

  74. 74.

    El Tiburon

    December 2, 2010 at 2:19 pm

    I remember watching those hearings. I was in my early-20s. Politics didn’t register for me then – it would be another decade before I got plugged-in. (The one silver-lining with BushII as Prez. that it certainly radicalized someone like me who otherwise thought O’Reilly and Matthews were alright by me)

    Anyway, I watched a lot of those hearings, especially Col. North. His atty was very good I thought. I wasn’t really rooting for anyone, guess there wasn’t much to watch 20 years ago.

  75. 75.

    Elizabelle

    December 2, 2010 at 2:28 pm

    I think we should push back with some letters to the editor on this matter.

    Case in point: I am in my early 50s and underemployed. I have no medical insurance, although I have sufficient funds to take care of routine medical and health.

    Good command of the English language, work skills, computer skills, relatively physically fit, even several advanced professional skills that are used in military settings.

    Put me up for a draft or allow me to serve in exchange for a few years of service, MEDICAL CARE/Disability insurance, and a chance to give back to my country.

    Which I do love, intensely, even though I usually vote Democratic and don’t watch Faux, like true patriots.

    Allow me, and others who are un-or underemployed, to serve our country so that perhaps my beloved nephews and nieces do not get sent to die in some ridiculous war that makes no difference in the lives of 98% of Americans.

    Oh: and if you are in Congress, the Senate?

    You, your kids and loved ones better have a good reason they’re not draft eligible with a first preference. Conscientious objector is okay, but even that makes one eligible for some tasks.

    Skin in the game, folks. Blackwater/whatever should not do it all and make a bundle in the process.

    PS: obviously my suggestion may not work for people raising families. However, we are in unusual economic circumstances, and there is likely a bigger pool of potential draftees out there if you look at what the military really needs. And catch these skills without incurring 20 years of service and full retirement pay.

    Use those mid-life skills. As instructors, legal assistance, medics, IT folks, anything that will free up a career soldier for strictly military pursuits.

  76. 76.

    eemom

    December 2, 2010 at 2:33 pm

    heh. I remember when North ran for the Senate here in Virginia against Chuck Robb. It was ’94 and I was pregnant with my first child (she will be 16 tomorrow!), and even though I wasn’t very political at the time, I remember telling a nice young man who came to knock on my door for Chuck Robb that no way was I bringing my baby forth in a state that elected that weasely little lowlife thug as a senator.

    And sho nuff the great republican blitzkrieg of that November passed him by, tee hee.

    Hell, I think even Ronald Reagan emerged from the cloud of Alzheimer’s to speak out against him. I distinctly remember that Nancy Reagan did, and also our other senator at the time, John Warner……one of that extinct breed of principled republicans folks get all misty-eyed over.

  77. 77.

    Comrade Dread

    December 2, 2010 at 2:34 pm

    Even assuming he were right (which is such a huge assumption, it’s not worth doing), I’d be okay with a draft, provided no one had the option of having mommy and daddy buy/talk their way into a cushy national guard gig.

    Actually making the public have a stake in the next ‘overseas deployment for freedom promotion’ might make everyone think twice about whether or not it was really worth dying for.

  78. 78.

    dmbeaster

    December 2, 2010 at 2:38 pm

    It’s worth remembering the details of how North got off, which was an early example of Republican judicial activism by Judge Laurence H. Silberman (who has a long record of partisan decisions). North got “use immunity” in connection with his compelled testimony before Congress. The long-standing practice at the time by prosecutors seeking to prosecute someone who got use immunity was to disclose in advance and in writing all of the evidence that they intended to use for the prosecution prior to the compelled testimony being heard. They could then claim that the subsequent prosecution did not in any manner make use of the compelled testimony and therefore constitute a Fifth Amendment violation.

    Judge Silberman made new law (no coincidence as to when conservatives decide to find new rights for criminal defendants – when the defendant is a prominent Republican) by holding that this practice was not sufficient under the Fifth amendment. In addition, the prosecutor had to show that none of the witnesses had their testimony influenced by the compelled testimony of North – a nearly impossible burden, and particularly difficult when it is announced as a new rule after the fact. Walsh opted not to prosecute North again under this standard.

  79. 79.

    kay

    December 2, 2010 at 3:06 pm

    @dmbeaster:

    Judge Silberman made new law (no coincidence as to when conservatives decide to find new rights for criminal defendants – when the defendant is a prominent Republican) by holding that this practice was not sufficient under the Fifth amendment.

    God, it got so much worse. I’m glad I didn’t follow it past the hearings. I knew he ran for something or other in Virginia, years later. I think by then I was watching in horror as the editorial page of the WSJ and New York Times disseminated lunatic conspiracy theories on the Clintons.

  80. 80.

    ThresherK

    December 2, 2010 at 3:30 pm

    @Southern Beale: “Who’s Oliver North?

    (Oh, and FYWP, this is the four-hour anniversary of my first posting this.)

  81. 81.

    bostondreams

    December 2, 2010 at 6:30 pm

    This brings to mind a piece I read by Col. David Hackworth, where he describes Ollie North thusly:

    “LET ME TRY to describe Oliver North in a few fast bursts. He’s a jackass. He is so preposterous that there is a temptation to laugh at him. He’s smarmy, a flatter, a brownnoser. He’s also a twisted impostor, a drugstore Marine with an apparent compulsion to bullshit just about all the time. But while he tries to fool people with his fantasies, he is also very easy to fool. He boasts that he was an can-do guy when he was in the White House, but the record spells no-can-do. North did terible damage to the U.S. until he was caught. One thread runs through his performance–getting conned. The Iranians conned him, the contras conned him, the crooked arms dealers conned him and even Manuel Antonio Noriega conned him.”

    I especially love the line about North being a ‘drugstore marine.’

  82. 82.

    JWL

    December 2, 2010 at 7:06 pm

    North is full of shit, but even if events proved him right it would be OK with me. A military draft would prove a great check on imperial adventurism. You can be sure had there been one in 2002-2003, a far more caustic eye would have been lit on the administration’s claims by people, press, and congress.

  83. 83.

    gnomedad

    December 2, 2010 at 8:54 pm

    If we could require all wars to be paid for with a surtax, that would put a damper on things, too. But it would probably be easier to bring back the draft. Because unlike involuntary servitude, taxes are, you know, tyranny.

Comments are closed.

Primary Sidebar

Recent Comments

  • rekoob on *Interesting* Read: ‘Are “Never Trump” Republicans Actually Just Democrats Now?’ (Sep 23, 2023 @ 9:45pm)
  • WaterGirl on Postcard Writing Party & Music Thread (Sep 23, 2023 @ 9:44pm)
  • Major Major Major Major on War for Ukraine Day 577: The Ukrainians Commissed Another Russian Submarine Today (Sep 23, 2023 @ 9:42pm)
  • WaterGirl on Postcard Writing Party & Music Thread (Sep 23, 2023 @ 9:38pm)
  • Geminid on *Interesting* Read: ‘Are “Never Trump” Republicans Actually Just Democrats Now?’ (Sep 23, 2023 @ 9:36pm)

🎈Keep Balloon Juice Ad Free

Become a Balloon Juice Patreon
Donate with Venmo, Zelle or PayPal

Balloon Juice Posts

View by Topic
View by Author
View by Month & Year
View by Past Author

Featuring

Medium Cool
Artists in Our Midst
Authors in Our Midst
We All Need A Little Kindness
What Has Biden Done for You Lately?

Balloon Juice Meetups!

All Meetups
Talk of Meetups – Meetup Planning

Fundraising 2023-24

Wis*Dems Supreme Court + SD-8

Calling All Jackals

Site Feedback
Nominate a Rotating Tag
Submit Photos to On the Road
Balloon Juice Mailing List Signup
Balloon Juice Anniversary (All Links)
Balloon Juice Anniversary (All Posts)

Twitter / Spoutible

Balloon Juice (Spoutible)
WaterGirl (Spoutible)
TaMara (Spoutible)
John Cole
DougJ (aka NYT Pitchbot)
Betty Cracker
Tom Levenson
TaMara
David Anderson
Major Major Major Major
ActualCitizensUnited

Join the Fight!

Join the Fight Signup Form
All Join the Fight Posts

Balloon Juice for Ukraine

Donate

Cole & Friends Learn Español

Introductory Post
Cole & Friends Learn Español

Site Footer

Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

  • Facebook
  • RSS
  • Twitter
  • YouTube
  • Comment Policy
  • Our Authors
  • Blogroll
  • Our Artists
  • Privacy Policy

Copyright © 2023 Dev Balloon Juice · All Rights Reserved · Powered by BizBudding Inc

Share this ArticleLike this article? Email it to a friend!

Email sent!