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Every one of the “Roberts Six” lied to get on the court.

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84Comments

  2. 2.

    LGRooney

    So, we must all take audio recorders into the bedroom with us now. If a woman says stop and the man doesn’t, I agree it is rape. However, without physical evidence or corroborating testimonies from both sides, it would seem to be impossible to prove. And, what if the woman tells the man that she wants him to take her, even if she says no, even if she says stop. There would seem to be an agreement in place and how does the man know, when she says stop, whether she is serious or just playing the game? Too many possibilities for abuse in situations like this. But too many who have abused situations like these thus necessitating such laws?

  3. 3.

    cathyx

    Sorry if this has been mentioned to death, I’ve been off line for a while. Mastercard.com is down by hackers in support of Wikileaks. I guess two can play this game.

  4. 4.

    soonergrunt

    From The Guardian newspaper in Britain:

    Gemma Lindfield, for the Swedish authorities, told the court Assange was wanted in connection with four allegations.
    She said the first complainant, Miss A, said she was victim of “unlawful coercion” on the night of 14 August in Stockholm.
    The court heard Assange is accused of using his body weight to hold her down in a sexual manner.
    The second charge alleged Assange “sexually molested” Miss A by having sex with her without a condom when it was her “express wish” one should be used.
    The third charge claimed Assange “deliberately molested” Miss A on 18 August “in a way designed to violate her sexual integrity”.
    The fourth charge accused Assange of having sex with a second woman, Miss W, on 17 August without a condom while she was asleep at her Stockholm home.

    Ms. Lindfield is presumably the local solicitor hired by the Swedish government to represent them before the court.

  5. 5.

    LGRooney

    And, in the end, let’s not get carried away with Assange as a person and instead let’s stay focused on the need for his organization in light of the press’ failure or fear given the security state in which we no live.

  6. 6.

    Peter J

    Interpol has a page with information on the Sex Offences section in the Swedish Penal code.

    1. The law in Sweden isn’t consent based. While a no, is a no, according to the Swedish law, just a no isn’t enough.

    2. For it to legally be rape, there has to either be violence or threats involved. If not, then according to the law, it’s sexual exploitation and not rape. For example if the victim is unconscious or suffering from a mental disturbance.

    Just pointing this out since there have been lots of comments claiming that Sweden got a progressive, consent based law.

    That’s not true.

  7. 7.

    matoko_chan

    AMG CAN YOU STOP WITH THE ASSANGE CROTCH SNIFFING ALREADY?
    it doesnt fucking matter.
    its just a shiny for the cudlips so they dont notice Our Wunnerful Judeoxian “Democracy” going full frontal Iranian on Wikileaks.

  8. 8.

    Ash Can

    I think it was commenter Suzanne who brought up the trivialization-of-rape aspect yesterday, and she’s spot-on. The legal authorities have been as ham-handed as Assange himself, and it’s this aspect of the whole sorry mess that bothers me the most. If only the crime of rape were always taken this seriously.

  11. 11.

    soonergrunt

    WRT the claim that Assange is trying to cause a system to collapse from within as it becomes more and more secret and cuts off members from information flow and is beset by leaks to the outside–it looks like the theory ascribed to him (which I don’t happen to believe) is being tested as we blather on here at Balloon-Juice. Only the test organization appears to be Wikileaks itself.
    From Wired.com’s Threat Level blog:

    Assange left Icelandic television journalist Kristinn Hrafnsson in charge of the group in his absence, the activist said. But now the embattled organization’s secrecy and compartmentalization are apparently hindering its operations.
    Specifically, midlevel WikiLeaks staffers have been mostly cut off from communicating with hundreds of volunteers whose contact information was stored in Assange’s private online-messaging accounts, and never shared with others.
    “There is an ongoing plan, but that plan was only introduced to a few staffers — key staffers,” explained the source. “We are experiencing chaos.”

    Ironically, this information was leaked by an insider to Threat Level.

  12. 12.

    Chyron HR

    AMG CAN YOU STOP WITH THE ASSANGE CROTCH SNIFFING ALREADY?

    What’s the matter? Is the OODA going WAI WAI? Even Siberia goes through the motions. You need to get your Fuchikomas Tachikomas on the case, you 1337 cyber warrior of Apple Nation.

    Assange is a hero to a lot of us.

    Yes, let’s all salute the man responsible for Climategate. He’s so dreamy!

  14. 14.

    MattMinus

    I’m getting a “Page cannot be displayed” on Pandagon, which is more informative than anything Amanda has ever written. The error message has the added benefit of not finding excuses to remind you it lives in Brooklyn now.

    As far as the Feministe article, the claim that he used his body weight to hold her down clearly gives up the game. The guy weights, what , a wispy 75 pounds?

  15. 15.

    matoko_chan

    @soonergrunt: nice to see you pull your head out of Assanges crotch long enough to read wired.

    the claim that Assange is trying to cause a system to collapse from within

    nah, Assange is field testing a prototype that kills closed information systems (like the modern security state) by causing paranoia reflex.
    he is inducing paranoia reflex by the slow release of a few hundred diplo cables at a time into the environment (the web)….an attack from without……..not at all the same thing.

  16. 16.

    dan

    Used to love Pandagon’s political stuff, but when 80% of it became how looking at a woman is committing eye rape, I had to give it up.

  17. 17.

    The Raven

    I think the publicized charges are being adapted as Assange’s opponents go along. First it was rape. When that became implausible, it was sex without a condom. Now it’s something else. Is Assange guilty, and of what? I have no idea. And neither does anyone else except Assange, his accusers, and perhaps the lawyers involved. After many tellings, story can replace truth in memory. So perhaps no-one knows, not even the people involved.

  21. 21.

    Comrade Jake

    I think one of the more entertaining defenses of Assange I’ve read is that “he wouldn’t rape anyone since he knows the CIA is hunting him!”

    Brilliant.

    The internet Assange fanboys are out in full force.

  23. 23.

    Will

    There’s a societal benefit to having people who will always, unquestionably support rape victims. I just don’t want them anywhere near the levers of power.

    And Marcotte’s whole bit in the comments about how women intuitively know which guys are “creepy”, men can’t share the ability and that this is a vital way of identifying potential rapists is pretty creepy in and of itself.

  24. 24.

    soonergrunt

    @Comrade Jake: Of course, if one is inclined to rape, it’s probably the best time because one could then semi-plausibly blame the accusations on the CIA.
    @Will: and if her claimed ability were in fact true, that would tend to mitigate against the claimed high numbers of rape she’s always spouting. And since another treasured chestnut of the rape-claim industry is that all men are potential rapists, shouldn’t this radar or whatever it is be completely useless because the signal to noise ratio is like 0.00001?

  27. 27.

    Medrawt

    dan @ 16 –

    I don’t think the blog you were reading is the same as the blog I was reading.

  28. 28.

    Caravelle

    cathyx :

    Sorry if this has been mentioned to death, I’ve been off line for a while. Mastercard.com is down by hackers in support of Wikileaks. I guess two can play this game.

    Then again Wikileaks had been the victim of anti-Wikileaks hackers before that (it’s the rationale EveryDNS gave to drop them, however big that grain of truth is). Hackers will do what they’ll do but I’m uncomfortable cheering for such an indiscriminate weapon.

    The Raven :

    I think the publicized charges are being adapted as Assange’s opponents go along. First it was rape. When that became implausible, it was sex without a condom.

    Is there the slightest bit of truth to this ? Or are you referring to the multiple interpretations of the Swedish charges that are floating around the media and blogosphere ?

    Otherwise I’ll just repeat what I’ve been saying on Pandagon. Stop trying to speculate on whether Assange is guilty or not; it’s completely irrelevant. I’m not saying the arrest isn’t political, I think it is, but this is completely independent of whether he’s actually guilty or not. Leave the rape charges to the courts, talk about the campaign to destroy Wikileaks instead. There certainly is enough to talk about there.

  29. 29.

    Svensker

    @soonergrunt:

    Of course, if one is inclined to rape, it’s probably the best time because one could then semi-plausibly blame the accusations on the CIA.

    Oh, geez, sooner.

  30. 30.

    Will

    @soonergrunt

    For the record, I also find men who get angry about the “rape-claim industry” to be pretty creepy.

  31. 31.

    soonergrunt

    @Svensker: As long as we’re entertaining conspiracy theories (which is about all we do, WRT this particular topic) and we’re hearing from one group about how Assange is all ahead of people and inside the OODA loop and how he’s playing eleventy-seven dimensional chess and the cudlips just can’t keep up–it’s possible that is precisely what he’s done. In fact, it’s about as likely as the concept that the CIA is fabricating these charges against him in a Swedish court.

    Frankly, it seems most likely to me that he did in fact behave either as alleged or very close to the manner alleged and is now simply blaming the CIA after the fact. But saying that doesn’t tweak the cool-aid drinkers quite so effectively.

  33. 33.

    roshan

    Why haven’t eminent in-house BJ lawyers, eemom and burnsby, delivered their verdict in this case yet? By their logic it’s an open and shut case of rape by the narcissist and megalomaniac Assange.

  34. 34.

    matoko_chan

    @Caravelle:

    Wikileaks had been the victim of anti-Wikileaks hackers before that

    umm no, cudlip.
    read the link.

    If you tried going to MasterCard’s web site this morning you might have found yourself waiting a long time. A self-styled “hacktivist” group calling itself Anonymous claims to have brought down the site as part of Operation:Payback, according to thenextweb.com, after the credit-card company withdrew its funding services for WikiLeaks. The whistleblower Web site’s founder Julian Assange was arrested yesterday and denied bail. He remains in the custody of British police.

    THIS Anonymous.
    The one from Operation Avenge Assange.

  35. 35.

    matoko_chan

    @roshan: sooner is already on the scene with his super secret crotchsniffing powers– eemom and burn are redundant at this point.

  38. 38.

    scav

    Lost: One rocker, gently used. Last confident sighting, approximately 2000 ce, unverified rumors only since. Please contact Human species, 3rd planet Sol.

  41. 41.

    Ash Can

    @LGRooney:

    And, in the end, let’s not get carried away with Assange as a person and instead let’s stay focused on the need for his organization in light of the press’ failure or fear given the security state in which we no live.

    Excellent point. I still can’t help thinking that getting Assange out of the picture might be the best thing to happen to Wikileaks at this point, assuming some other grandstander in the organization doesn’t take his place. A Wikileaks that simply goes about its business exposing wrongdoing and educating the populace is vastly preferable to a Wikileaks distorted and overshadowed by a director who has become the story himself, much of it by his own doing.

  43. 43.

    beltane

    @matoko_chan: Twitter is next on the list of targets. How on earth will Sarah Palin survive if Twitter is taken down?

    Seriously, people, instead of all this hand-wringing over Julian Assange’s sex life, we’d do well to read the actual leaked cables being posted on The Guardian’s liveblog. If we expect moral purity from those who challenge the system, there will be no one to ever challenge the system. I am a woman but I am also a human being and Amanda Marcotte’s post did not resonate one bit with me.

  44. 44.

    Lysana

    @LGRooney:

    However, without physical evidence or corroborating testimonies from both sides, it would seem to be impossible to prove. And, what if the woman tells the man that she wants him to take her, even if she says no, even if she says stop. There would seem to be an agreement in place and how does the man know, when she says stop, whether she is serious or just playing the game?

    It’s called negotiating a safeword. When no is supposed to mean “keep going,” you pick a word that means “no” and both parties commit to using and honoring it (and yes, sometimes the top needs a safeword).

  47. 47.

    Woodrowfan

    Assange pissed off every major intelligence service in the world AND the Russian mafia. I ain’t going near the Wikileaks site without about a dozen firewalls.

    Oh, and what Caravelle said:

    Leave the rape charges to the courts, talk about the campaign to destroy Wikileaks instead. There certainly is enough to talk about there.

  48. 48.

    matoko_chan

    @roshan:

    Can’t we add an Israeli angle to this rape charge

    no need. crotchsniffing works splendidly for almost everyone here. it is the common denominator of cudlips everywhere.

    @beltane:

    instead of all this hand-wringing over Julian Assange’s sex life

    yeah, its pretty transparent, but the cudlips fall for it everytime. lets face it, its the only reason Palin is where she is.
    i dont think they can do twitter..that would be too full frontal iranian even for them.
    economist link.
    Zuckerman is a crypto-anarchist anyways. If the feds try to censor google or twitter the chanese will attack. we already saw mastercard get hacked this am– that was a WARNING ONLY from Anonymous.
    you gotta admit, it is driving the Hyperpower insane to be powerless….Assanges beta test seems to be WAI.

  49. 49.

    roshan

    I don’t think CIA had anything to do with these charges. There is basically no history of them carrying out any of such stuff. They might have done those dreadful enhanced and awesome interrogations, but I believe that was that and all of CIA has come clean since then. They probably deserve a raise if anything.

  51. 51.

    Caravelle

    makoto-chan :

    umm no, cudlip.
    read the link.

    Maybe you can read what I wrote instead. Pro-Wikileaks hackers are attacking Mastercard. Anti-Wikileaks hackers attacked Wikileaks. I didn’t cheer for the latter so I feel uncomfortable cheering for the former. Especially as I am reading the Guardian liveblog (really nice, thanks for pointing to it John) and all they seem to talk about is “hackers attacking Mastercard and Paypal etc”, implicitly linking hackers to Wikileaks as if Wikileaks hadn’t itself been the target of (other) hackers.

  52. 52.

    Ramiah Ariya

    I just want to point out – a lot of commentary has gone around how this is a new media vs old media thing; and a secrecy vs transparency argument. This commentary is not very useful, because they all seem to be finding excuses for WikiLeaks.
    The truth is, WikiLeaks need NOT be apologetic about this – by Assange’s own words, he considers himself a journalist. WikiLeaks is pretty much a news organization. Therefore, they are not “leaking” information. They are PUBLISHING leaked information. They are playing the very normal role of a news organization.
    Therefore this is neither a new vs old media thing; nor a secrecy vs transparency issue.
    The success of the obfuscation; obscuring the fact that what WikiLeaks is doing is VERY normal for a news organization – is this – every hostile interview and every government tool have started out highlighting that Assange is a hacker. Thus the questioning in the Forbes interview subtly tried to insinuate that Assange was STEALING information from governments as he used to from companies. Assange answered correctly, that he was a journalist; and his former role had nothing to do really with his current role.

    Thus with the basic terms of debate shifting to hacking vs secrecy, the commentary defending Assange is futile. The bastards have already won.

    After all, the questions asked of Assange such as:
    1. What use is this leaking? Is it effective in a crusade against government secrecy?
    2. This will be forgotten in a few days. So, what is the purpose of this?
    and so on, are NEVER asked of “normal” news organizations. Nobody goes and asks CNN if there is any use in their news. But they hold Assange to a standard different from news organizations because the trems of debate have been established around him being a hacker.

  53. 53.

    Culture of Truth

    The man ignited a debate over use of force in war, revealed an ocean of secrets wrt to Iraq and Afghanistan, created the greatest diplomatic uprorar in modern times, revealed interesting tidbits on everything from Iran and Saudi Arabia to North Korea and China, and provoked, if inadvertently, a timely discussion on consent and assault. Truly he should be Time’s Person of the Year.

  54. 54.

    Caravelle

    @Ramiah Ariah : Exactly.
    On this BBC report :
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00wmnrk/Newsnight_07_12_2010/
    They have Mukasey on and asked him if Wikileaks was doing something illegal and if so what, and he point blank said that yes they were doing something illegal, violating secrecy laws and so on. Of course this is false, but the crazy thing was seeing them going to waffling-on-torture-Mukasey for this. Apparently to them, “legal” means “convenient for the US government”.

  56. 56.

    arguingwithsignposts

    The US lobbied Russia this year on behalf of Visa and MasterCard in an attempt to ensure the payment companies were not “adversely affected” by new legislation, according to American diplomats in Moscow.
    __
    A state department cable released this afternoon by WikiLeaks reveals that US diplomats intervened to try to amend a draft law going through Russia’s Duma. Their explicit aim was to ensure the new law did not “disadvantage” the two US firms, the cable states.
    __
    The revelation comes a day after Visa – apparently acting under intense pressure from Washington – announced it was suspending all payments to WikiLeaks, the whistle-blowing website. Visa was following MasterCard, PayPal and Amazon, all of which have severed ties with the site and its founder Julian Assange in the last few days

    Guardian link

    (FYWP)

  57. 57.

    Caravelle

    provoked, if inadvertently, a timely discussion on consent and assault.

    Timely ? I couldn’t think of a worst time or subject to divide the left on. (I definitely don’t think the feminists should be the ones to shut up here btw)

  58. 58.

    matoko_chan

    @Caravelle: Anonymous attacked mastercard IN REVENGE. read the link. hackers are not attacking WL. US gov paid skiddies and spammers are attacking WL– the Hyperpower is attacking WL.
    Hacktivism is a new paradigm. There are no hacktivists working for the US gov in DDOSing WL. You are presenting a false equivalence.

    @soonergrunt: Hacker Nation = the chanese = hacktivists = Anonymous.
    welcome to the 21st century.

  61. 61.

    Caravelle

    Anonymous attacked mastercard IN REVENGE. read the link.

    I don’t need to read a link to figure that out.

    hackers are not attacking WL. US gov paid skiddies and spammers are attacking WL—the Hyperpower is attacking WL.

    So you’re using a definition of hacker that excludes being employed by the US government. Fair enough. I wasn’t.

    Hacktivism is a new paradigm. There are no hacktivists working for the US gov in DDOSing WL. You are presenting a false equivalence.

    I never mentioned hacktivists, I only talked about hackers. And I don’t think the two groups of attackers were equivalent, I think their methods were equivalent. And since I felt that the Powers That Be using DDOS attacks on Wikileaks (as opposed to going through legal channels) was unfair I can’t turn around and cheer when Anonymous does it. Especially when it’s later portrayed in the media as hacking=Anonymous=Wikileaks.

    Note I’m not telling Anonymous what to do here. That’s what I meant when I said that hackers will do what they will do. And just because I don’t want to cheer them doesn’t mean I want to boo them either. I’m just explaining my reaction to the news and my worries of how the media will interpret it. (which will be the media’s fault)

  62. 62.

    Morbo

    @matoko_chan: Never said they didn’t. I question whether it is a good thing to have “justice” dispensed based on the benevolence of the mob. Frankly it’s not much of a question given the mob. On top of that, forgive me if I don’t think DDoS attacks are productive. If anything it gives Lieberman rhetorical ammunition for fighting for more restrictions on internet freedoms. But oh well, Iranian style crackdown is a small price to pay for inconveniencing Mastercard.

    Oh by the way, how’s Scientology doin’?

  63. 63.

    Caravelle

    Mary :

    That’s why god and kinksters invented safe words.

    God has a safe word ? Can we know it ?
    Oh wait, it wouldn’t be “I accept Jesus Christ into my heart” would it …? (if it is I’m totally stealing that)

  64. 64.

    soonergrunt

    @Caravelle:
    “I accept Jesus Christ into my heart”
    I really didn’t want to imagine some guy, trussed up in a wetsuit with nipple clips and dong in his ass, hanging from some trapeze assembly shouting that.
    But since I’ve got the mental image, by Dog, the rest of you will too.

  65. 65.

    matoko_chan

    @Morbo: im not a scientologist.
    ima sufi..and a quellist.
    but they might be the same thing…i have not totally explored the memespace of either yet…..
    @Caravelle: hmm…..ok i cede your point of interpretation. but i think you are you are wrong. i think the idea of hacking is that it is ALWAYS used against authority and consolidated power. hackers are cyber-insurgents by definition. the skiddies and spammers employed by the feds are mercs, not cyber-insurgents.
    hacktivism is information transparency.
    hacking is cyber-insurgency.
    see the difference?

  66. 66.

    liberal

    @Chyron HR:

    Yes, let’s all salute the man responsible for Climategate. He’s so dreamy!

    This is indeed the most distasteful thing about WL.

  68. 68.

    liberal

    @Caravelle:

    I’m not saying the arrest isn’t political, I think it is, but this is completely independent of whether he’s actually guilty or not. Leave the rape charges to the courts…

    I could be wrong about the precise legalities here, but I thought it does matter if the arrest is political, because some nations have written into their extradition treaties that they won’t extradite for political crimes.

    Whether that’s true of Britain, whether it covers trumped-up charges, etc, I’m not sure.

  71. 71.

    Marlowe

    What’s the deal with Amanda Marcotte? Is she a spoof or do people take her seriously?

    Read the paragraph that begins “I don’t know if Julian Assange is guilty, of course …”, followed by a shovelful of the most idiotic, pseudo-Psych 101 innuendo based on nothing but an agitated imagination. It would be entertaining if well-written, but it’s Amanda Marcotte, so fat chance of that.

    John Edwards dodged a bullet.

  74. 74.

    Caravelle

    makoto-chan :

    see the difference?

    Sure. You’re not the first I see using the word “hacker” like that and I have no problem with it. As long as we understand what we’re both talking about.

    Liberal :

    I could be wrong about the precise legalities here, but I thought it does matter if the arrest is political, because some nations have written into their extradition treaties that they won’t extradite for political crimes.

    Well, the context is certainly political (I have trouble believing a red-list Interpol warrant for questioning on this kind of crime) but the crime itself isn’t. One could claim they are trumped-up charges but I don’t see how you could possibly prove that in a he said/she said case like this one, short of having the actual trial.

    That said I have no experience of such political arrests and extradition cases, maybe the standards of proof aren’t what I think they are.

    From the indispensible Swedish phoenix commenting on the Pandagon post :

    If the US wants him, they will have to define which crimes he’s supposed to have committed, and they must be illegal in Sweden as well, and carry a minimum sentence of one year in prison. If the speculations that he’ll be charged with treason or espionage are true, that would probably do it. But he can’t be extradited to the US while the Swedish rape investigation is going. The second article quotes The Independent, claiming that the US has requested informally that Assange is extradited. However, our minister of foreign affairs, Carl Bildt, denies this.

  75. 75.

    Peter

    You know, I’m enjoying this blog much more now that matoko has stopped blathering about science fiction scenarios and started talking about pie.

  76. 76.

    matoko_chan

    @Caravelle: well……you cannot exactly Fight the Power when you are taking a paycheck from the Power.
    im more sympathetic to the chanese….praps its an age thing.

    i <3 griefers.

  78. 78.

    uriel

    @matoko_chan:

    Hacker Nation = the chanese = hacktivists = Anonymous.

    Look, that is frankly nonsense. Anonymous is mostly 14 year old kids who spend most of their time trying to sneak CP past the 4 chan mods, and impressing themselves with their clever uses of the n word. And most of them couldn’t hack their way past the log in screen of their own ipods with out instructions.

    There is one reason and one reason only that they might be involved in this: lulz.

  80. 80.

    matoko_chan

    @uriel: AMG you ARE dumb.
    Anonymous SAID they were going to do it.
    and then they DID it.

    Anonymous, a group of online activists representing what has been called the first “real grassroots Internet rebellion”, brought down part of MasterCard’s site Wednesday in revenge for its refusal to take donations to WikiLeaks.
    The attack, dubbed Operation: Payback, “was confirmed on Twitter at 9.39am [GMT] by user @Anon_Operation, who later tweeted: ‘WE ARE GLAD TO TELL YOU THAT http://www.mastercard.com/ is DOWN AND IT’S CONFIRMED! #ddos #wikileaks Operation:Payback(is a bitch!) #PAYBACK.'”
    (UPDATE: About 12 hours later the Visa.com site also went down and as of 21.30 p,m, it remains offline. In addition, payment processor Datacell has announced it will be suing Visa and Mastercard for suspending payment service to wikiLeaks)

    cant you stupid cudlips EVEN FUCKING READ?

  83. 83.

    soonergrunt

    @Morbo: Hell, they couldn’t even affect MasterCard’s actual business. I got all the last of my Christmas shopping done today online with both my Visa and my MasterCard, and never had problem one.

  84. 84.

    matoko_chan

    @soonergrunt: AMG you dumbass.
    think of all the encryption protocol for safe online shopping that has been compromised.
    the chanese hacked it, and they can do it again.
    Osama understood perfectly that the bankstahs are part and parcel of the american security state.
    He destroyed our economy and our courage with one blow.
    now Assange’s system killer is amping up the system paranoia reflex until America becomes a police state on the way to non-linear info system collapse….and on the way destroy the Hyperpower’s global hegemony and any illusions any cudlips still harbor about “american exceptionalism” or american power.

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