I’m busy doing other things, but I take it the house just passed a non-binding resolution that they are pissed about the tax cut deal. In the senate, something happened with DADT and CNN says the DREAM Act is in danger, and START has been shit-canned. Now it goes without saying that all of this is Obama’s fault, but could someone give me the details as to what is going on? I already had my car blow up on me today, and I refuse to turn on cable news.
*** Update ***
Never mind. I don’t give a shit. I’m just tired of caring about this shit only to have evil people wreck things, and then watch good people get blamed. And I warned you about the “moderates” from Maine, didn’t I? I’m also glad to have a bigot as my Senator. Thanks, Joe.
soonergrunt
Cloture vote on DADT failed 57-40.
dmsilev
Re: DADT, there was a cloture vote which failed. Collins voted in favor of cloture (though only after 40 nay votes were recorded, so by that point the result wasn’t in doubt; real profile in courage there…), all of the GOP plus your new Senator voted no.
Not sure about the others off-hand.
dms
Oscar Leroy
Oh, I see what you did there: you’re sarcastically mocking the people who think the president of the United States has some sort of power in American government. Good one.
Corner Stone
Tried posting this in the Ugh thread but FYWP I guess.
Anyway:
Orszag now works for Citi.
Ex-Obama budget director Orszag joins Citi
Zifnab
Hey, at least you’re only 1 for 2.
My Texas Senators very politely took my call, and they’re still batting 1.000 on the bigot bench.
gwangung
@Oscar Leroy: No, he’s mocking people who think the President has a different kind of power than he does. And blame him for what Republicans do.
TooManyJens
@Oscar Leroy: Seemed pretty obvious to me he was mocking the people who take every opportunity to blame Obama for Democratic failures, no matter what the reality is. But then again, I can read.
4tehlulz
@Oscar Leroy: If only he dissolved the Senate, this would never have happened.
Violet
It all fucking sucks. It just does. Fuck the fucking Senate. And fuck any fucking Democrat who thinks they can negotiate with a Republican. That’s like trying to negotiate with a two year old. Your best hope is to distract them.
Suffern ACE
@Corner Stone: That is 42.5% of why we can’t have nice things.
Carnacki
Just slammed Manchin at WVaBlue. He whines about Republicans slapping him around he should stop showing he’s such a coward.
Martin
@Corner Stone: Where do you expect him to go? None of the states or universities have any money to hire folks like him.
geg6
Well, John. I’d have to say that what happened is, in a nutshell, why this country deserves to be downgraded to developing world status.
Though I must say that my sympathies lie with the non-binding House resolution. I hear they tore Uncle Joe Biden a new asshole last night. Too bad they sent in Uncle Joe, who doesn’t deserve the abuse here, and not the guy who really should be persuading them but who, apparently, got pissed when he was forced to hear how he really should have consulted with them before running off to see how much sweet, sweet love he could wring from McConnell and Boehner. Sadly, and not for the first time over the last two years, word is that NancySMASH is trying to pull something out of her ass to persuade her caucus to go along so that President Pissypants can get his “win.”
Nick
Well Harry Reid decided to “fight” and rather than give into Collins’ demands, force a vote.
and it failed
I look forward to hearing the professional left praise him for “fighting”
jurassicpork
You’re not the only one who got bad news today, John, although I am sorry about your car. I’ve been there, buddy.
I guess what it comes down to is the GOP is once holding everyone hostage until they get their jiggling billionaire buddies those tax breaks, which just makes my own particular bad news all the more galling.
Suck It Up!
@Corner Stone:
And where else would an ex budget director work?
geg6
@Corner Stone:
Shocking! I’m just shocked!
Not.
WyldPirate
@Oscar Leroy:
Yeah, we would be a better country if we could amend the Constitution and make the head of the Executive branch something other than a figurehead.
/snark
In all seriousness, I think that unless the Senate can unfuck itself—and I think the egotistical pricks elected to the office can’t–then we are doomed as a country. It’s bad enough that we don’t have proportional reputation, but this hostage taking super-majority shit to past the most minor thig has to go.
Corner Stone
Well, with all these legislative initiatives dead I guess there’s no longer any reason to do the tax cut deal to move forward on other things.
What’s that? Someone inexplicably linked UI to getting the tax cut deal? Who would be so foolish?
freelancer
57 out of 100 votes is not enough. How many ways are there for the media to avoid saying “broken”?
Martin
@Oscar Leroy:
There’s a reason he’s called former Senator from Illinois. Former has meaning when used in a sentence.
Corner Stone
It should be obvious by now that Collins’ “15 amendments and 4 days” gambit was just that – a gambit.
Reid knew it if you didn’t.
superking
I concur. Over the past two months, my give-a-shit tank has been completely empty.
D. Aristophanes
@Nick: What were Collins’ demands, anyway?
demimondian
@Nick: Um…Collins voted for cloture.
Oscar Leroy
@4tehlulz:
You know what would be neat? If Obama could, someone, unilaterally suspend discharges under DADT because we’re at war. Stop the loss, if it were. If only he were the commander-in-chief of all US military forces, and thus could simply order them to stop discharging gay people until our wars are done. Sure, it might prove to be only a temporary solution, but it would be a whole lot better than nothing.
If only, if only.
A L
What happened? American democracy’s corpse twitched again.
Everyone blaming Obama for this can take a seat. They’re all culpable in carrying out the wishes of higher powers, and they have apparently decided that they are not done yet using this wedge issue.
eemom
it is my understanding that we’re getting this tax cut deal done now because after the new Congress comes in in January things are gonna be worse because then we won’t be able to get ANY of our legislative priorities through — oh wait…..
Nick
@D. Aristophanes:
she wanted four days of debate, but Reid apparently said it was an attempt to run out the clock and keep the Senate from voting on it until after time expires.
Corner Stone
And for those asking about Orszag and where else I think he should work, just found it interesting that’s where he went and wanted to share.
I’m very generous like that.
scarshapedstar
GLENN GREENWALD AND JANE HAMSHER WILL PAY FOR THIS!!11
Oscar Leroy
@Martin:
I admit, I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.
sven
Congratulations to Susan Collins for pulling off the mother of all obstructionist tactics.
She managed to kill DADT through procedural maneuvering without any possibility of facing electoral consequences.
Well played.
In other news:
Senate Democrats, still the stupidest people on earth.
Dennis SGMM
No blame for Obama from me. Lots of blame for each and every pants-wetting, delusional, meat sack who kept these measures from being voted on before the mid-terms. What part of “the president’s party almost always loses seats in a mid-term” did they not understand? Nancy Pelosi must be one of the most frustrated people in the world.
Kryptik
@Corner Stone:
Sadly the best realistic outcome that could have come from this. It was obvious from the start that if Collins didn’t double back on the deal, then Snowe would, or Brown, or some other asshole trying to pass as a ‘Moderate Republican’. A shit sandwich is still a shit sandwich sadly. I better see Dems hanging this millstone around the GOP’s fuckin’ necks. This shit is why, even with the ‘best deal possible’ thing on the tax cuts/UI stuff, I remain skeptical. A giddy GOPer means you likely got fucked over dirty.
Chyron HR
@Oscar Leroy:
Don’t forget the part about the GOP being to the left of Obama on gay rights. That’s the bit that makes your little joke such a thigh-slapper.
Bob Loblaw
Didn’t I tell you you were being an overemotional wanker with your “crawling through broken glass to poll the lever for Manchin and Oliverio” bullshit?
Enjoy him for the next 30 years though. He’s the new Ben Nelson.
Nick
@Oscar Leroy:
yes he can, with an executive order that can be overturned, and it doesn’t allow you to serve openly in the military as it’s still illegal to be gay in the military.
Sammy
Does this mean we can no longer count on support from the “African American Community”?
jl
I suggest we Balloon Juicers run Cole in a primary. That will pep him up, and he will have to act cheerful and friendly for awhile.
It will do him some good.
So, against Manchin or Obama?
If we can get the pets on board with the idea, Cole will have to do it.
FoxinSocks
I don’t blame Obama or Dems at all, because what are you supposed to do when the Republicans are determined to hold the gov’t hostage until they get tax cuts for rich folks? In a strange way, I’m glad for these votes, because it shows just how obsessed the GOP is with these tax cuts. It’s crazy to me. They even blocked health care for 9/11 first responders today.
So no, I’m not angry at the Dems, just appalled at the Republicans and appalled at the people who would vote for the GOP.
Sasha
Well, I think Scott Brown just blew his chance for reelection in 2012 . . .
Kryptik
@Dennis SGMM:
I honestly can imagine Pelosi and the Progressive Caucus in the House wishing they could just leave flaming bags of crap at the doorstep of every Senator at this point.
@demimondian:
Yeah, after (as pointed out above) the vote was a foregone conclusion. She voted for cloture because she knew cloture wasn’t happening, and her vote didn’t matter except as a fig leaf.
Corey
What happened? Your precious Obama, instead of just manning up and ending DADT by executive order, passed the buck to Congress and this is what he got.
One day you’re going to figure out that the President is sometimes at fault for stuff.
Corner Stone
Hey. Captain Obvious. You want a cookie?
Mike Kay (Team America)
Too bad gays have become lazy and self-indulgent.
Why 20 years ago, they would have been ACTing-up over this.
Nick
@Corey: he can’t “end DADT” by executive order, get informed.
Suck It Up!
@Corner Stone:
right.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@Violet: Obama tried to distract them with tax cuts for the rich. Then everyone else realized he was playing with the kids hoarding the candy.
Fuck U II: The Duckening
Kryptik: Wouldn’t it be easier to ring the bell and set the Senator on Fire? Same outcome either way.
Bullsmith
At least they put it to vote. It’s the only way to put it who did what on record.
Eventually you have to think that even the NYT will notice that when votes are 57-40, or 55-37, the side with more votes is supposed to win. Remember when we used to hear about “tyranny of the minority” and how we need “up or down votes.” Well that’s transparently true, but shhhhhh, the weak Dems just lost another vote. Sigh. No you don’t have to think that, do you.
Kryptik
@FoxinSocks:
My problem isn’t even with the deals anymore. I’m weary debating for or against the policy and shit. I’m simply pissed that our party as a whole is so shit ineffectual as to be consistently outmessaged, out-‘optic-ed’, outmaneuvered, and outplayed at every single fucking turn, and I really honestly have no fucking clue anymore about what can be done about it.
scav
@Corey: In short: Fuck Men, if manning up means being a dictator and worshiping at the altar of same.
Hal
All I can say is; Yeesh!
fourlegsgood
I think what we’re seeing now is that at long last, America is getting the government we deserve.
And it’s not pretty.
Mike Kay (Team America)
@Corey:
misogyny is okay when it comes from the far left.
fourlegsgood
@Corey: You idiot. Obama can’t end DADT by executive order.
But thanks for playing.
Kryptik
@Fuck U II: The Duckening:
But nowhere near as personal of a ‘Fuck You’ as the flaming bag of shit would be.
Dennis SGMM
@Kryptik:
True, that. OTOH, now that the Senate has failed to repeal DADT and kicked the Dream Act down the road it can get on with not-passing other important legislation.
Davis X. Machina
@Sasha: Let me guess — he sold the truck.
Because that’s the only thing that can cost him re-election. I have three registered-Democrat brothers, two of whom are union members, who voted for Brown in the special — they have trucks. Brown has a truck. They loved the truck.
Kryptik
@Corey:
To elaborate on why you’re dead freakin’ wrong as others have noted, DADT cannot be ‘ended’ by executive order. It’s Federal Law, not just military regulation. He can strike it by EO by saying it won’t be enforced, but 1) it’s the kind of bad precedent Bush started on with his EOs, and 2) it’s just as easily un-stricken by the next wingnut Prez that would come along.
Full on repeal is the only way DADT dies the permanent death it needs to.
Corner Stone
@Suck It Up!: If you can’t see the issue then I’m not going to waste my time explaining it to you.
JMY
@demimondian:
She waited for everyone else to vote though. She waited after Brown and other Republicans who said they would vote for it, voted “no”. She gets no props for that. If she wanted to make an impact she would have been the first Republican to vote “yes”.
TooManyJens
@Bullsmith:
I see no evidence that they will ever notice this.
@Corey: Gasp! The President left it to Congress to pass legislation to overturn existing legislation! But I’m sure that if you were in the Oval Office, your giant gonads would allow you to overturn legislation by executive order. Sure that’s not legal, but your balls are JUST THAT BIG, amirite?
SFAW
Yes, I can picture Martha Coakley rubbing her hands together over this one, saying “Hah! I have him now!”, followed by a Bullwinkle-esque “This time for sure!”
At the moment, probably the only Mass Dem with a chance in ’12 would be Capuano. (Although I’m sure some MA resident will tell me “Idiot! You forgot Moe LaRiankurly!” etc etc)
Although Capuano has a reasonable chance, it’ll take more than the DADT cloture vote to deep-six Brown.
Trentrunner
Steve Benen says:
Digby is right. These Republican nihilists are driving us off a cliff.
When JOE FUCKING LIEBERMAN can’t twist a single “centrist” Republican arm, you know you’re dealing with the immovable worst.
Mnemosyne
@Chyron HR:
What do you mean? Don’t you know that Obama is the worst president for GLBT rights ever?
I mean, sure, Reagan allowed thousands of gay men to die horrible deaths from AIDS, and Clinton signed DADT and DOMA, but clearly by attempting to repeal DADT and not succeeding, Obama is the worst ever!
TooManyJens
Lieberman just announced that he and Collins will introduce a standalone DADT repeal bill, and Reid has agreed to bring it to the floor.
gene108
@WyldPirate:
It would help, if we amended the Constitution, so rural areas didn’t have disproportionately higher amounts of representation in Congress versus their actual total of the country’s population.
But that’s a feature of the Constitution…what to do…
jl
@Davis X. Machina: That is depressing.
I guess being a bad faith con artist who lies and is untrustworthy, but smiles all the while, is not a minus anymore. So people like Brown and Collins pay no price, and perhaps benefit from that behavior.
Sooner or later Obama has to call out this behavior for what it is. Everyone can see it, as easily as they could see Brown’s truck during the campaign. Even the GOP voters can see it, the only difference between them and the rest is that they think it is very cool, and the very model of modern US political leader.
I will wait for the Brooks or Doubthat column that explains how this kind of unethical behavior will doom our country. Or maybe that kind of serious commentary is only for sexytime and trivia? Probably.
Kryptik
@Trentrunner:
Not to mention that when even Joe Lieberman stands with Dems against Republican obstruction that you have an issue that’s just plain unconscionable to stand against. Which makes the GOP obstruction even that more unconscionable than it was to begin with.
Mike Kay (Team America)
@eemom: they’re getting the deal done now because the pigs have blocked extension of unemployment benefits. Waiting 1 month or 9 months doesn’t help the 10% who are unemployed. I thought bloggers cared about the unemployed, not simply and solely sticking it to the other side.
Suck It Up!
@Corner Stone:
you must think you are the smartest person in the room don’t you? I know exactly what you mean. I’ve seen the same comment elsewhere.
john b
@TooManyJens:
i would imagine a DADT repeal bill alone would be even harder to pass. right?
edit: especially because it would mean that it would have to go back to the house. and it wouldn’t just be for conference either. and is there even time for that before the end of the lame duck?
Bullsmith
@TooManyJens:
I know, I couldn’t believe through the post and had to retract it a couple of sentences later. The Media’s ability to avoid reporting the obvious will continue. Indeed, it is their central mission.
John Cole
@Oscar Leroy: I’m tired of mouthbreathers like you blaming Obama when it was the Republicans. Firedoglake is thattaway, douchebag.
Mnemosyne
@Corey:
Little hint: it is illegal for the president to overturn legislation passed by Congress. It has been this way since 1952.
Not to mention that an executive order doesn’t solve the actual problem, which is that it is currently illegal for gay men and women to serve in the armed forces. That’s not because of an executive order, which Obama could easily overturn with a new executive order. It’s because Congress passed a law that Bill Clinton signed.
If you’re arguing that the president should be allowed to overrule any law that Congress passes just on his say-so, you’re arguing for a dictatorship. Sorry, I can’t go along with that, even for a good reason.
Zifnab
@Nick:
Let me be the first then.
“Thank you Harry Reid, for nutting up and holding the vote, rather than letting Republicans string you along until the clock runs out.”
If he doesn’t have the votes, then he doesn’t have the votes. I’m pissed about the filibuster and I’m pissed about politicians that barter away a bill before the voting even starts. I’m never as sad watching a good bill fail than a bad bill pass.
If Reid wants to have some fun, he can keep bringing the Senate bill up for a vote straight through the next two years. Reid controls the legislative agenda. That’s a damn powerful tool in capable hands. So long as he has 50 votes + Biden, and he can discourage any amendments, he can get it to the President’s desk eventually.
John Cole
@Corey: My God, you are stupid.
Suck It Up!
@TooManyJens:
what difference does that make? seriously. why?
Amanda
@Sasha: Bingo. Waiting to hear who’s running on the Dem side in MA so I can send them $$ and work my butt off for them. Sincerely hope it’s Capuano. He was my preferred candidate last time and I still think he’d make a fantastic candidate and Senator. We shall see…
FoxinSocks
@Kryptik
I’m also annoyed at the Democrats for not being able to message, but right now, I’m in this zen place where I can just sit back, watch the Republicans vote down every and anything for the cause of the filthy rich and just marvel that anybody voted for these jerks (well, except rich people, I can definitely understand rich people voting for Republicans. The Republicans do their bidding so well)
Davis X. Machina
@jl:
It never was a minus. Americans find, have found, will always find that skill set admirable. Professor Harold Hill is the hero, after all, and not the villain, of The Music Man.
SFAW
The only twisting that Holy Joe has been good for has been twisting his own …
Ooops! Sorry John, I almost orgot this is a family-orientated blog.
Mike Kay (Team America)
@Mnemosyne: don’t be so hard on Reagan. Why Dutch and Nancy employed gay decorators and and Nancy’s gowns were all done by gay fashion designers.
jl
Off topic, and maybe it is just here in CA, and not everywhere, but I notice the Pelosi has fallen off the map in terms of presence in the news, and her efforts to pass productive legislation is derided as symbolic.
And she is the only one who is still able to get anything useful done, at all.
Is that just more DFH punching by the kewl kids in the corporate press, or another example of the rancid sexism (along with the racism) that dominates this country?
Or am I just missing it? Anyone see Pelosi in the news lately? Hear her say anything?
Sasha
@fourlegsgood:
No. We are at long last getting the government that other people deserve … but I’m stuck in the same America as them.
Omnes Omnibus
@Corey: This has been covered again and again, but a president cannot override a valid law with an executive order. Go read Youngstown Sheet and Tube v. Sawyer.
Kryptik
@Suck It Up!:
Maybe this time Collins will vote soon enough to get to vote No, and make sure Lieberman and Reid see the knives in their backs clearly.
Pangloss
Here’s the roll call on the DADT cloture vote.
57 for, 40 against, with Lincoln not voting and Manchin Nay. Dead.
tworivers
Anybody know a good enlightened despot who could actually get sh#t done? This experiment in American democracy seems (insert phrase of choice here)
Davis X. Machina
@Mike Kay (Team America):
With what amounts to the advice and consent of a majority of the members of the House…
Mike Kay (Team America)
@Suck It Up!:
it’s because Joe wants to provide cover for his friend susan.
I mean, it’s gonna fail, but susan can say, I tried, I didn’t play a role in the gop kabuki to segregate gays.
lamh32
@Sammy:
I know you probably meant that as snark, but in 2012 I’m gonna vote for Obama. I’ll decide later if I gonna vote for any other national Dems.
Gus
Took you long enough to figure that out.
TooManyJens
@Zifnab:
Ditto.
@Suck It Up!: I honestly don’t know. Supposedly Manchin said he’d vote for cloture on the standalone. Did he have a bug up his ass about some other aspect of the defense authorization? I don’t know. I have an enormous headache.
Sasha
@Davis X. Machina:
Unless that anecdote is transferable to the rest of Massachusetts, I don’t think Brown’s reelection is inevitable.
Kryptik
@jl:
She’s served her role as easily caricatured strawman and boogeyman the GOP could misrepresent and cast in dark light to use to rally people to vote GOP for the House. Why should they bother giving her any more exposure now that she’s served her purpose?
freelancer
@Mnemosyne:
Dan Choi made quick work in going from face of DADT policy to gay Cindy Sheehan. I think for me, the tipping point was when he started chaining himself to the White House fence.
How bout handcuffing yourself to the door of John McCain’s Senate Office? Pick your target correctly, Lt. Martyr.
Mike from Philly
Was this ever in doubt? Priorities have been handled – rich people got their tax cuts. Everything else you stupid fucking hippies wanted can die a slow death.
And you know what Obama COULD do? He could ask his Justice Dept to stop defending this crap in courts after its struck down. But then again, I guess that would mean doing something to make the people who elected him happy, and we can’t have that.
Purity purity, ponies ponies, blah blah blah. So fucking worthless.
Suck It Up!
Well Sully says Reid was reckless for bringing it up today, but he points right at John McCain’s “bitter soul” as we all should.
Dennis SGMM
@Mike Kay (Team America):
My understanding (Correct me if I’m wrong) is that the bill as it stands won’t do anything for the 1.4 million Tier 5 unemployed. They make up roughly 10% of the total unemployment and simply cutting them off, with the inevitable ripple effect, doesn’t seem like very sound policy.
Pangloss
If only the three gay Republican men in the U.S. Senate had voted yes, it would have passed.
Corey
OK, semantic geniuses, yes, “ending DADT” is not the same as “not enforcing DADT”. Got me there! Point is, if the president actually, really cared about ensuring gays and lesbians a place in the military, he would use his power to actually do it.
This isn’t a “bully pulpit” argument, the president actually has this power. He’s not using it. At some point you have to pull out Occam’s Razor and ask why.
TooManyJens
@freelancer:
Earlier today, I was seriously proposing a massive sit-in at Senate offices. If they don’t want to get work done, fine, they don’t need to get into their offices.
Zifnab
@SFAW:
The House is going to go Full Metal Wingnut next year. Is Scott Brown ready to vote on abolishing public education or repealing the 17th amendment? He won on the backs of the Tea Bag brigades. If he’s not sufficiently devote, he could pick up an even more right wing challenger in ’12. If he toes the line, he’ll look like a loon.
Brown is riding the tiger on this one.
gene108
@Kryptik: Political Parties don’t message alone. The supporters of a party are the ones, who usually do the heavy lifting, when it comes to messaging and influencing people.
There are no liberal groups patient enough to do this.
The folks, who want to gut Social Security, after an epic failure the first time they tried in 1980’s and another epic failure in 2005, are still at it. They don’t blame Republicans for betraying them. They know which side their bread is buttered on and they make sure that side stays up.
Kryptik
@Zifnab:
@TooManyJens:
Double ditto. Reid is on my shitlist for many things, but this isn’t one of them.
Comrade Mary
@Suck It Up!: It won’t pass, but maybe, just maybe, the mouthbreathers in the media will notice and blame the Repub — aww, who am I kidding?
Hugh
This line sets up a civil war in this thread and greatly reduces the chances that a discussion will be had of what happened legislatively. Too bad.
TooManyJens
@Corey: Do you honestly think that it’s better for the executive branch to just not enforce laws they don’t like than to try to get Congress to repeal said laws?
Comrade Luke
The headlines for this shit kills me.
DADT:
“Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” Repeal Falls Short in Senate.
Dream Act:
Senate Democrats Put “Dream Act” on Hold.
Contrast that with blocking health aid for 9/11 workers:
Republicans Block U.S. Health Aid for 9/11 Workers.
So basically, anything 9/11 is super important, so they correctly blame Republicans. Versus the Dream Act and DADT are Democrat-led reforms, so it’s their fault they didn’t move on even though they didn’t move on for exactly the same reasons, by the same Republicans.
Bunch of fuckers.
Suck It Up!
@TooManyJens:
I was going to add something like that in my original comment but it just didn’t make sense to me. I haven’t heard anyone object to the rest of the defense bill.
Sputnik_Sweetheart
@Sasha: I’m not very optimistic. His approval ratings are pretty high. I would love to be wrong, though.
KDP
@Pangloss: Well, I guess the two R not voting, Brownback and Cornyn, would not have been any help. Lincoln came in late saying she had been unavoidable detained and asked to have it recorded that “if I had been here, I would have voted Aye.” This after first asking if her Aye vote could be recorded retroactively,
danimal
I’m in a predictions kind of mood today, so here’s my prediction: The Senate won’t pass a damned thing until the tax deal is passed. The GOP will find a thousand ways to obstruct or deny anything that Dems care about until the deal is sealed.
If the deal is passed, Collins’ demand for four days of debate and 15 amendments will morph into four minutes of debate and a voice vote. If no deal, then no START, no DADT repeal, no judges, no DREAM, etc.
There is nothing, not a damn thing, more important to the GOP congresscritters than retaining the current tax rates, especially for the top 2%ers (actually the top 0.01%ers, truth be told). Nothing.
Culture of Truth
Obama, my preciousssssssssssss
Mnemosyne
@Mike from Philly:
Actually, they haven’t. The deal that Obama proposed hasn’t been voted on, so as of right now, everyone gets a tax hike on 1/1/11.
I’m guessing Reid scheduled this vote to force the Republicans to show their hand rather than holding the tax vote and then letting them go, “HAHAHAHAHA SUCKER! We’re not voting for anything else we promised to vote for!” And, frankly, he was smart to do it. Without a demonstration from the Republicans showing that they will let things come up for a vote, holding another tax vote would be insane.
Nick
@Corey: And what happens when gays start being prosecuted because it’s still illegal to be gay in the military
You do realize that the reason DADT exists is because it was an attempt to prevent prosecutions.
Zifnab
@Corey:
The issue is also working its way through the court system. Obama could ask the DoJ to back off the defense or drop the case and just let court precedent stand before it gets to the SCOTUS.
fourlegsgood
Lieberman just announced that he and Collins will introduce a standalone DADT repeal bill, and Reid has agreed to bring it to the floor.
Really? and has McConnell announced his intention to filibuster it yet?
Corey
@TooManyJens: Who says those two options are mutually exclusive?
Mike Kay (Team America)
@Mike from Philly:
Didn’t he take an oath to uphold all the laws, even the ones he disagreed with?
I sure if bush did that, stop enforcing a woman’s right to choose, bloggers would be sqwaking about the rule of law and impeachment.
Poopyman
Cole’s tired.
SFAW
John, seriously, WTF? Oscar snarked you on your gratuitous shot – a holdover from the 43 recent threads in which you’ve bitched about what some are calling “the professional left”, etc – and you can’t handle it? He didn’t say he blames Obama for this.
And, no, I’m not ignoring his stop-loss-Exec-Order foolishness, but that came after the comment you referenced.
One hopes that you’re just super-pissed because of your car, and it’s carrying over to this thread.
Kryptik
@danimal:
Fixed that for you.
What makes you think the GOP will actually be willing to compromise on anything even after they get their tax deal?
Mike Kay (Team America)
@Zifnab: that doesn’t work. the judicial ruling is only enforceable in the circuit it was decided. for example a 9th circuit ruling doesn’t bind any of the other 11 circuits.
Mnemosyne
@danimal:
I think that’s the impasse we’re at right now: the Democrats (rightly) want the Republicans to show that they’ll keep their promises and allow something other than the tax bill to come to a vote. Republicans, naturally, want the tax bill to come up first so they can get the credit for that and kill everything else.
Davis X. Machina
@Suck It Up!: There is, I am sure, some diffuse, general objection from the GOP, if for no other reason, for having being told, “No, you may NOT have a new war. You haven’t finished playing with the two perfectly good wars we’ve already bought you.”
Tom Hilton
@Oscar Leroy:
Or maybe, just maybe, sarcastically mocking the people who think the President of the United States has a whole range of magical powers including but not limited to the ability to unilaterally repeal acts of Congress.
TooManyJens
@Corey: But you’re pissed because he tried to get Congress to repeal it. And I’m saying OF COURSE he did; that’s the best course of action.
Mnemosyne
@SFAW:
You must not have been around for a while. Oscar blames Obama for everything, including the fact that Starbucks gave him the wrong coffee this morning. That’s all he lives for.
Allan
Right now I’m picturing sort of a mashup of Independence Day and Zabriskie Point featuring the US Senate chambers.
Culture of Truth
(New York Times) A Republican senator and an independent senator said today they will jointly introduce a stand-alone bill to repeal the military’s “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy after a larger defense bill containing the repeal failed to advance in the Senate.
not sure how that will help, but ok.
Dennis SGMM
@Kryptik:
Lucy – Football. The GOP has already stated that the UI extension cannot add to the deficit. If the Dems overcome that hurdle then the GOP will insist that none of the UI recipients be allowed to spend the money for an abortion. Etc.
Mike from Philly
Huh. I must have missed the part in the constitution that mandated the Justice Dept defend a law it states it doesn’t agree with through the appeals process.
I certainly missed the part where this same Justice Dept. compares homosexuality to pedophilia while defending a law nobody wants.
But hey, I guess we’re just holding him to a higher standard and if we expect him to do anything about not calling homosexuals pedophiles we’ll just never get “anything” done.
And by “anything” I mean of course giving the wealthy super fat tax cuts while waging endless war and calling your supporters whiny douchebags on national television.
No – Lt. Choi’s ire has been directed in entirely the right direction. Our “Commander in Chief” doesn’t give a shit about gays. We’re just another consituency to fuck over and bitch about while blowing Republicans and fucking this country over.
I’m done.
PS – hope this post doesn’t cause all the African Americans to start voting Republican or anything.
Corey
@TooManyJens: No, I’m pissed because why not do both? It is within the President’s power to correct the immediate injustice. Not a panacea, but as the newly-Broderite masses on this site keep telling us re: the tax deal, it’s better than the status quo.
tworivers
@Zifnab:
I think Capuano would have a decent chance against Brown. He sure as hell would campaign a lot harder than Coakley did. Plus, he’s plainspoken and blunt in a way that would make it hard for any “elitist liberal” charges to stick to him.
I hope he does run against Brown
SFAW
Perhaps so, but those weren’t the issues that Sasha raised. Had they been, I probably would have had a different response.
Either that, or blamed Obama.
catclub
@Mnemosyne:
“If you’re arguing that the president should be allowed to overrule any law that Congress passes just on his say-so, you’re arguing for a dictatorship.”
This is when George W Bush grins that stupid grin and says:
“Miss me yet?”
Signing statements by the ton.
Corey
Also, hilarious that those who were preaching “pragmatism” and making fun of “idealists” who opposed the tax deal a few days back are now holding out for some Platonic ideal of politics where the President simply must respect, without question, the dictates of Congress.
Davis X. Machina
@Culture of Truth: It’ll be a bipartisan empty symbolic gesture hoist on the petard of cloture. And that makes all the difference.
TooManyJens
@Corey: Until now, it was possible that the best course of action — having the law repealed by Congress — would work. Maybe now that that possiblity seems dead, the administration will have to turn to other means. I’m disturbed by selective enforcement of laws, though. I think I’d rather see the DOJ not keep appealing losses in the courts (which is also a bit selective, but they did defend the laws to begin with, so one could argue they’ve done their duty).
danimal
@Kryptik – This is all negotiations for the GOP. They don’t care about 90% of the things they pretend to care about. Really, there are enough moderate GOP senators to pass DADT tomorrow; they’re withholding their votes because they only care about taxes. Once the puppet-masters release their hold, the GOP ‘moderates’ will vote yes on some of these issues. Coburn or DeMint are beyond reach, but there are 3-5 GOP moderates that are reachable on just about every Dem priority issue.
The ‘moderates’ really want to vote yes on some of these issues. DREAM had bipartisan backing recently, ending DADT will help the New Englanders immensely and so on. But nothing is as important as serving the hyper-rich; it’s their raison d’etre.
D. Aristophanes
@Davis X. Machina: Dude, c’mon. Cole doesn’t like people blaming Obama for shit the Republicans do, and he’s right. Similarly, it’s not cool to blame the House Dems for Republican shit either.
4tehlulz
@Corey: Because the EO would last about 5 min. in court?
maybe 10 if he got lucky and it ended up in the 9th circuit.
Mnemosyne
@Mike from Philly:
If you didn’t know by now that that claim was a major exaggeration by John Aravosis, I feel sorry for you. The rest of us have known it for months.
Though I am glad to see that you are already over the thousands of gay men that Reagan allowed to die and have moved on to the most important issue EVAH! — employment discrimination. That’s far more important than AIDS ever was.
Gus
@Pangloss: Ooh, I love this game. Um, Lindsay Graham, Mitch McConnell and ummmm, don’t tell me…Dick Lugar?
SFAW
Mnemosyne –
I’ve seen some of it, probably more than is good for my blood pressure. I just viewed Oscar’s first comment as him calling bullshit on John, who appeared to be trying to stoke up some more internecine flaming. I usually like what John has to say. but he needs to take about 1376 deep breaths re: the whole Obama-haters-suck schtick.
Of course, now I’ll probably get exiled to FDL to RedStoat.
Davis X. Machina
@D. Aristophanes: They block the tax compromise, they block the UI extension. It’s a package last time I looked — and they bid fair, as of this evening — to block it.
Mnemosyne
@Corey:
Yes, clearly thinking that the president should follow the law is a “Platonic ideal,” when really the president should break laws right and left until he gets caught.
Mike Kay (Team America)
@Corey: you do know that there are 12 judicial circuits in the united states, and the ruling of one circuit is non-binding on any of the others. The 9th circuit could say bans on gay marriage is unconstitutional, but that has no value in any other circuit.
so yes, obama could stop the appeal of one decision in one circuit, but that doesn’t end DADT in the others.
it even gets more complicated because within every circuit are various districts, and same procedure applies, one district ruling has no force in the neighboring district.
so the answer is no. not appealing the ruling of one district judge does not end DADT.
to say otherwise, is trolling.
TooManyJens
@Mike Kay (Team America): The way somebody explained it to me in a long-ago thread, if one circuit rules DADT unconstitutional and it’s not appealed, it can’t be enforced. (That was in fact the case for a few days this fall.) Thus, since the law is no longer being enforced, no suits would be going forward in any other circuits, and there wouldn’t be an opportunity for any other circuit to declare it constitutional. That sounded right to me, but am I missing something?
jwb
@4tehlulz: Why stop with dissolving the Senate?
JMY
@Mnemosyne:
School me on this, because I heard that the DOJ did make that comparison.
Amanda
@Zifnab: As a Massachusetts voter, I would tend to agree with you.
The flip side of the coin is that Scottie is going to face an EXTREMELY different electorate in 2012 than the one he faced previously — it will be more diverse/less white, more Democratic, younger, etc. Which means the rock and hard place he’s between is only going to get worse.
The guy just got super lucky to be running in a low turnout special election against a totally incompetent candidate. That dynamic isn’t going to repeat. And in 2012 there’ll be another factor — he won’t be this supposedly charming blank slate that pissed of moderates can project their hopes on; he will be a guy with a record, every bit of which will be grist for his (hopefully) competent & savvy opponent (cough Capuano cough).
As long as my fellow MA Dems nominate a strong candidate, I think we’ve got a very strong chance, despite the incumbency factor. Why? The recent re-election of Deval Patrick as Governor and the retention of all 10 Dems in our US House seats — in a horrifically toxic environment.
These are both must reads:
http://www.boston.com/news/politics/articles/2010/11/06/stunned_by_brown_win_he_led_partys_comeback/
http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2010/11/04/for_democrats_door_to_door_did_trick/
The MA Dem party and all the electeds for like the first time in history joined forces and got off their behinds — and ran an incredible campaign. We can do it again. And all the motivation we need is that Scottie’s voting record sucks and doesn’t reflect the majority of his constituents’ views. With the right opponent and a solid coordinated campaign — coupled with Presidential year level turnout — I think we can beat him. I think it will be close due to the incumbency factor. But I think we can beat him.
oldswede
Regarding the tax cut for the top tier, what’s the big deal, really? Don’t you all realize that these people won’t pay much anyway? They have tax lawyers and accountants up their wazoos to find the loopholes.
This is a phony issue.
oldswede
Bruce (formerly Steve S.)
No, Obama and the Senate Dems. They’re the ones who took all the decent-to-good legislation that the House passed over the last two years and either watered it down or completely ignored it.
Suck It Up!
From Steven Benen:
NR
@Mike Kay (Team America):
Then where are the torture prosecutions?
Wile E. Quixote
@Mike Kay (Team America):
Plus Reagan was helped in 1980 by John T. “Terry” Dolan who founded the National Conservative Political Action Committee. Dolan was a closet case, publicly opposed gay rights and died of AIDS in 1986.
JMY
@Mike from Philly:
Lt. Choi lost all credibility after tweeting that Obama was the worst president for the LGBT community. That’s bullshit and he knows it. Not after Reagan and Bush, Jr. So Reagan not doing anything about AIDS is not worse? Bush, Jr. making gay marriage a major campaign issue, trying to create a constitutional amendment is somehow better? Fuck him for even thinking that.
shortstop
@Sasha: This, this, this.
Lurker
@lamh32:
I’m voting for Obama in 2012, too. For what it’s worth, though, I plan to vote my displeasure with other national Dems in their primaries, not the 2012 November election.
Bob Loblaw
How is this Obama’s fault exactly? I mean, I suppose you could criticize him for his failed negotiating strategy of using the military brass and Pentagon as his conduit to force Republican Senators hands, since that’s plainly failed.
But even then, that’s solely due to Republican nihilism. I’m not sure why people think attacking the President at every turn is a good move. It diminishes one’s ability to credibly attack him when he’s genuinely in the wrong, which is a not infrequent amount of the time. To put it simply, you lose the moral authority to make judgments on the man and his policies when you reduce them all down to 2D straw men at every turn…
Dennis SGMM
@Amanda:
Just keep Coakley away from the election.
Oscar Leroy
@John Cole:
Stay classy, John. How mature that was. Did you think long and hard before writing that?
Yes, the Republicans voted down this measure. And whose idea was it to leave this up to Republicans? President Obama’s. Everyone in this thread can’t wait to say “I knew those awful, horrible Republicans would screw this up!” And yet it’s alright for the president to put repeal of DADT in their hands? How does that work?
Obama can’t sign an order to spend a trillion dollars on stimulus, or force industry to use 21st century energy, or cause businesses to hire people. But he can sign an order to stop discharging people from the military for being gay. That is a fact. If you don’t like that, it’s alright. You’re entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts.
http://www.palmcenter.org/files/active/0/Executive%20Order%20on%20Gay%20Troops%20-%20final.pdf
D. Aristophanes
@Davis X. Machina: Fine, and by the same token, Obama is blocking the needed revenue from the rich peoples’ tax cuts that were set to expire. This is a dumb game. Reasonable people on our side disagree on how far we ought to go on a compromise on tax policy with Republicans. That doesn’t make Obama ‘objectively pro-tax breaks for the rich’ any more than it makes House Dems ‘objectively pro-cutting off the unemployed’. That’s why I objected to your formulation of ‘advice and consent’ in your original comment.
Omnes Omnibus
@Bob Loblaw: … and with this comment, you just gained some credibility in my eyes. FWIW
Martin Gifford
@FoxinSocks:
Obama and the Dems could communicate that information effectively to the voters.
And remember just 2 years ago they looked down and out for a generation. What happened in the meantime? Obama rescued them.
@Bullsmith:
Obama should have pushed for senate reform instead of pandering to Joe Lieberman and co.
@Kryptik:
The Dems need a strong charismatic intelligent bold leader. And that prospective leader might also need to be incredibly cunning, i.e. pretend to be a 3rd way Dem like Obama, then bam – take no prisoners once she or he is in office.
@John Cole:
It’s both. Obama should have pushed for Senate reform, and the Republicans should WTFU.
@tworivers:
America should ask for Corner Stone and Comrade Luke to form a two-headed benevolent dictatorship.
Jen7
@FoxinSocks: I’m angry that Obama compromised with these souless pigs and let his own fucking party know 10 minutes in advance without ANY say on the matter. That’s what I’m angry about!
So, when I see that the GOP blocked DADT and the 9/11 health bill, I get even more angry that Obama did what he did.
No, he’s not to blame for the obstructionism. But he’s responsible for this shitty deal and for leaving the Dems out of it. He has absolutely NO backbone. I believe 100% that if Dems and Obama held firm on no tax cuts for the rich, the Republicans would have caved.
Instead, they get a sweet deal on millionaires and dead millionaires. And we get an extention for 1 year on those who have been jobless for only 100 days, while those who have been jobless for over a year, get screwed…my husband included. It wasn’t a fair trade.
Unless he decides to fight for his agenda and for the middle class, he does not have my vote in 2012. He fooled a lot of people.
Oscar Leroy
@freelancer:
Wow, you are so much better a person than Lt. Dan Choi. Really, he should totally take your advice.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Choi#Military_education_and_career
I’m so sure that John McCain, who faced a teabag primary this year, would gladly move to the left. Good call.
Ep1phany42
@Davis X. Machina: Yeah, Scotty has a truck that he can’t even back out of the driveway, so he asks a staffer to do it for him. But hey, Scotty looks good in his BVDs, too.
Omnes Omnibus
@Oscar Leroy: He can end the discharges temporarily, but being gay and being in the military would still be illegal. That is because there is a a law that says so. L.A.W. Law.
Amanda
@Dennis SGMM: As people used to say, Word. I had to really hold my nose to vote for her for Attorney General this time around but honestly she’s been ok in that job and it’s about the only thing she’s good at, so best to keep her where she is, imo.
Still amazes me, the incompetence & political malpractice of her Senate campaign…
And my hope is that in the next Dem primary for US Senate in MA, I won’t have to have any more arguments with my fellow Dems about not wanting to vote for a candidate because he has a “temper” and seems “combative.” In many ways, Coakley was our fault — we let her happen because too many of us are idiots and wooses. I know a lot of Dems in MA who’ve definitely learned that lesson…the hard way.
Oscar Leroy
@Tom Hilton:
What you are saying applies to no one in this thread. No. One. What you are saying is immaterial. It is pointless. You are not addressing anything in reality. No one who exists applies to what you said.
Read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man_fallacy
Mnemosyne
@SFAW:
I think you’re giving Oscar more credit for coherence than he deserves. YMMV, I guess.
Oscar Leroy
@Omnes Omnibus:
That is true, factually accurate, correct.
Oscar Leroy
@Mnemosyne:
Not only that, but I’m a sexist because I wanted Obama to talk to Congress when the first DADT vote came up, rather than congratulate the WNBA champions. See how that works?
Davis X. Machina
I believe I’m an Adelié penguin.
Hugh
I think someone noted this in another thread but here’s a cut-and-paste from the NYTimes website
Why doesn’t it say anything about Republicans blocking the vote? It’s all passive voice, like it just happened somehow. You have to click the link to get more. Drives me insane.
Kryptik
@danimal – They will care for one big reason. It makes the deems look bad. This doesn’t end with taxes. It ends with them holding all the power and shitcanning anything dems like has proven to be a political winner for them. So why expect different from them?
Mnemosyne
@JMY:
The comparison was made because the DOJ was making the argument that states do not always honor marriages contracted in other states. One of the examples that they used was an uncle marrying his niece in one state where it was legal, but then moving to another state where that marriage would be invalid, and arguing that the courts say that the second state is not required to recognize the marriage.
This got turned into “OMG THEY CALLED US INCESTUOUS PEDOPHILES!” by Aravosis and now it’s the meme that just won’t die, no matter how many times people shoot it in the head.
Jamie
well Truman integrated the military on an executive order, Obama can get rid of DADT that way too. It might help minimize his wuss reputation too
Midnight Marauder
@Oscar Leroy:
Um, because they have the votes to obstruct any piece of legislation they want in the Senate?
And I like how, somehow, President Obama decided to leave repeal of DADT up to Republicans, as opposed to Republicans just wielding outsized power in the Senate because of their egregious abuse of arcane and anachronistic rules, and their nihilistic embrace of the filibuster.
That’s pretty fucking amazing how that happened.
Oscar Leroy
@TooManyJens:
You are right to be We all should be. And yet selective enforcement goes on every day. Does everyone who goes 66 in a 65 zone get a ticket? Of course not. Suppose someone were going 75 in a 65 zone, because their dad had a heart attack–should we be upset if a cop decided not to give them a ticket?
Now suppose we were at war in an Arab-speaking country, and not only needed every soldier we could get, but especially needed those who spoke Arabic? Should we discharge those who are gay because–I’m sorry, what was the good, compelling reason for discharging gay people, again?
Omnes Omnibus
.@Davis X. Machina: Your belief is more likely to be borne out in the real world.
Mike Kay (Team America)
@Hugh: well the Times doesn’t want to hurt gop fee-fees.
Mnemosyne
@Oscar Leroy:
It’s so weird how you specifically picked a phone call to a women’s basketball team as the waste of time when you could have picked the in-person visit to the White House by the Pittsburgh Penguins, which took up much more of Obama’s time than a simple phone call. But that was a men’s sports team, so I guess that was perfectly okay.
So if your motive was not to point out that Obama wasted time by calling a bunch of gurls who think they’re some kind of athletes, then what was your point?
Omnes Omnibus
@Jamie: No. Read what people have been posting.
Jamie
The GOP is trying to pick up the Cheney you can’t bargain with crazy people strategy.
Davis X. Machina
@Omnes Omnibus: Not only that, a.) it doesn’t involve impressing the GOP with my steely resolve, and b.) it’s got entertainment value.
Somebody throw me a mackerel.
Suck It Up!
@Oscar Leroy:
that doesn’t make you sexist, it makes you a petty idiot.
shortstop
@Oscar Leroy: Stop with that shit. You remind me of Team McCain responding to every criticism of his policy choices with, “Well, you know, for five long years in the Hanoi Hilton, John McCain didn’t get to (insert policy issue here).”
Grow up. No one said Choi hasn’t had a stellar career. They said, absolutely correctly, that he’s misdirecting his blame.
@Corey: This word “semantic”–I do not think it means what you think it means.
Tom Hilton
@Oscar Leroy:
Ahem:
Oscar Leroy
@Midnight Marauder:
The president could stop discharges under DADT with an executive order. Period.
http://www.palmcenter.org/files/active/0/Executive%20Order%20on%20Gay%20Troops%20-%20final.pdf
But instead, he said “hey, let’s put it to a vote in Congress instead.” He did that knowing he had only 59 Democrats in the Senate, and a bunch of those are wobbly. He could have done A but he did B. B failed. His choice, his failure.
Oscar Leroy
@Suck It Up!:
LOL.
shortstop
@Jamie: The repeated explanations in this thread of why he hasn’t been able to do that since 1952 (that’s the late Truman administration–happy to help) are just invisible to you, eh?
Mike Kay (Team America)
@Jamie:
Are all lefty bloggers this stooopid. it there something about being left that makes you dumb?
DADT is an actual law.
Racial segregation of the military was never a law, rather it was a prerogative of the CinC.
Gay segregation in the military was ONCE also a prerogative of the CinC, but that changed in 1993, when Congress passed an actual law banning gays and taking away the power to integrate away from the President.
The office of the presidency no longer has that power.
Triassic Sands
It was obvious that Manchin was going to be trouble on a wide range of issues, but he really distinguishes himself on this one.
He said this about DADT repeal:
Yeah, now that McCain has decided that the armed forces are democracies in which military personnel (carefully selected for their likelihood of being homophobic) get to vote about homosexuals, let’s give military chaplains the final say. That is the dumbest thing I’ve ever “heard” anyone say about DADT repeal.
John, I’m pretty sure if we check back in a year or two, Ben Nelson will no longer be the worst Democratic senator with the worst voting record. It looks like Manchin may earn that honor by a wide margin.
Oscar Leroy
@Mnemosyne:
Yes, it’s weird that I picked a call that happened on the day of the vote itself, when all hands were needed on deck, rather than a call that was made on some other day. So, so weird. There is only one explanation for that! ! ! ! ! !
Omnes Omnibus
@Oscar Leroy:
@Mnemosyne:
Jesus, people aren’t starting this crap again, are they?. 1) Biden did the calls and outreach because Biden has the fucking relationships to Senators based on long service together. 2) Does anyone think it would have mattered? GOP senators were going to be assholes on this one because they think gays are icky and because liberal wanted it. 3) What Mnem said about the girls.
Mnem, this wasn’t aimed at you.
Onkel Bob
I have long said that the stupid have reached a critical mass. Regardless of what the benevolent intelligent do or want to do, the malevolent intelligent, manipulating the stupid, will be able to undo it or prevent it.
Which is why I gave up, no longer care, and look forward to a nice bloody insurrection. I think I would enjoy living in interesting times.
Oscar Leroy
@Hugh:
Yeah, the reporting about bigotry is worse than the bigotry itself.
Jamie
@Omnes Omnibus:
OK I finally found it. you people talk too much.
Oscar Leroy
@Omnes Omnibus:
Oh, so it was a terrible idea to put it to a vote rather than–hey, wait a second!
JMY
@Jamie:
False.
Oscar Leroy
@Mike Kay (Team America):
Nothing says “opposite of stupid” like proper spelling and correct punctuation.
shortstop
@Oscar Leroy: You’re a brick wall.
Tom Hilton
@Oscar Leroy: Sure, in theory the President could temporarily stop discharges, leaving gay service members in a kind of legal limbo in which they would be subject to the whims of the next president. Strangely enough, the President thought repealing the act of Congress was preferable.
Yeah, I know: crazy!
And let me remind the newly minted fans of executive power that an executive order is what got us into this mess. Clinton tried to do it by executive order (without trying to get the buy-in of either Congress or the military brass–a lesson from which the President has obviously learned), and the reactionary backlash gave us DADT.
Jamie
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desegregation#Desegregation_in_the_military
Truman integrating the military.
Tom Hilton
@shortstop: Perhaps even a brick oven wall.
Oscar Leroy
@shortstop:
No, he’s right.
Omnes Omnibus
@Oscar Leroy: If Biden couldn’t do it, I doubt Obama could esp. wrt the Ice Queens.
Tom Hilton
@Jamie: Jesus you are fucking stupid. Do you seriously not understand that Truman wasn’t dealing with an act of Congress when he issued his order?
Midnight Marauder
@Oscar Leroy:
Do you remember when this exchange happened earlier:
@Oscar Leroy:
So, again, you are not actually interested in repealing the fucking law that prevents gays and lesbians from openly serving in the military. You just want a temporary solution that would have little long-term substantial and constructive impact. Good to know.
Because we are talking about a law, and laws are passed by Congress, who also is in charge of repealing them. Remember, you have already agreed that this is a clear cut legal issue wholly in Congress’ jurisdiction.
Those were your words.
I do enjoy how the vacillations of cowardly Senate Democrats is President Obama’s fault, as opposed to the fault of those individual, specific cowardly Senate Democrats.
You have written a lot of dumb things on this site, no doubt. But this one has to be a sure-fire Top 5 candidate.
shortstop
@Tom Hilton: Is that it? I don’t get here often enough to catch most of the costume changes.
Omnes Omnibus
@Jamie: What does this have to do with Obama overturning a law with an EO? Nothing. Exactly. That is the problem.
Oscar Leroy
@Tom Hilton:
And in fact, too.
Which is worse than being in a legal limbo subject to the whims of Congress because. . . oh I don’t know, 42?
Sure, it was preferable, if by that you mean “had no chance at all of actually happening thanks to Republican a–holes.”
So I guess that, since DADT was created by Congress, we shouldn’t rely on Congress to end it, either. Because that’s what got us into this mess.
Tom Hilton
@shortstop: I don’t think so…but there’s a comparable density, to be sure.
Jamie
@Tom Hilton:
wow, somebodies cranky. low blood sugar or a hangover?
Oscar Leroy
@Midnight Marauder:
Noooooo, I just want a less-than-perfect answer if the perfect answer is not available. You know, like if you can’t take a limousine to the store you take your 1999 Chevy instead.
I shouldn’t have said that–wait, I didn’t say that.
Yeah, I sure did. Like when I wrote “attaching DADT repeal to the defense authorization bill and putting it to a vote in Congress is as great strategy that is certain to work, so it’s just a matter of when DADT is struck down, not when”.
Oh, wait, that was what people like you have been writing for months now. I was the one who said that wouldn’t work. I don’t have to feel dumb at all :)
Oscar Leroy
@Jamie:
Neither, that’s just how most people discuss stuff around here.
Whoever gets in the most “you’re an idiot” or “you’re stuuuupid” wins, I guess.
dms
Ah, but we DFHs and professional leftists were assured by all you adults that this would all work out.
And by the way, Reid was threatening the vote for yesterday, so don’t blame him for a vote today.
Mike Kay (Team America)
@TooManyJens:
think about it in other situations.
If one judge in the Bronx banned the death penalty saying it was cruel and usual punishment, would that one ruling then apply to every single state – no.
If one judge in alabama repealed Roe v Wade, just one judge, would that overturn Roe across the entire country – no.
If one judge in Brooklyn repeals the ban on gay marriage, just one judge in one circuit, would that ruling then apply to the entire country — no.
Tom Hilton
@Jamie: Stupidity makes me cranky, as people who say stupid shit often discover.
Midnight Marauder
@Oscar Leroy:
Except that there is no legal limbo right now, because the law explicitly bans gays and lesbians from serving openly in the military. There is no limbo, no ambiguity, no doubt, and no equivocation. Essentially, you have no point here. There are no “whims of Congress” on this issue. Congress declared long ago that there shall be no gays or lesbians in the military.
The law is perfectly clear on this.
Jamie
@Oscar Leroy:
Yeah, i used to spend too much time doing this back in thee Clinton years. People haven’t polished their rhetoric much either.
TooManyJens
@Oscar Leroy:
But we just now found out that the perfect answer was not available. Like, two hours ago. Up until then, progress was being made. The Pentagon report came out and was very favorable. DADT repeal got more votes today than in September. It’s not like this was some wild-ass longshot that was crazy to try.
WereBear
The Republicans control the mass media. That’s why we’re outmessaged, and that’s the only reason. If the blaring headlines on Yahoo and MSN were “Republicans block Unemployment” and “Republicans don’t want First Responders to have health care” and “Republicans want your kids to die of malnutrition” just how much traction would they have? Only you never see these true headlines. Anywhere.
What can be done about it? Simple. People have to die.
I’m not talking revolution and blood in the streets. Quite simply, our most gullible population is at death’s door, and coincidentally, they lurve Republican lies. That would be the soul sucking elderly. (The sharp, savvy, elderly don’t vote Republican.)
But the people who fall for the crafted mass emails, and the Fox crap, and the nice voice on the phone who wants their credit card number (the elderly and the evangelical have the highest con rates in the known universe. Combine them and you have a down payment on that island) fall for Republican crap.
It ticks me off. They aren’t even that good at it!
Oscar Leroy
@dms:
Exactly. The people calling us “stupid” now were the ones calling us “stupid” 6 months ago for saying this wouldn’t work. I would say that that is why they are calling people “stupid” now. . . but they always call people names who disagree with them, so that can’t be it.
TooManyJens
@Mike Kay (Team America): But then why was the military legally barred from enforcing DADT for a few days there? It’s not like issues such as the death penalty or gay marriage, which go state by state. There’s only one military.
Mike Kay (Team America)
@dms: no big deal. gays don’t care. you don’t see any gays protesting do you.
Jamie
@Tom Hilton:
Ooh you told me. Have you heard that you catch more flies with honey…?
Nick
@Jamie:
it wasn’t illegal to be black in the military, nor was segregation the law, and the last unit wasn’t desegregated for six years.
Oscar Leroy
@Midnight Marauder:
Here’s why I wrote what I did: a court has struck down DADT out in California. Will it be appealed? If it’s appealed, will the decision stand? If so, will it end up applying to everyone, not just the plaintiffs? You’d need a crystal ball to see.
JMY
@Mnemosyne:
Thanks for clearing that up for me.
Tonal Crow
@Mike Kay (Team America):
While it’s true that a decision in one circuit doesn’t bind courts in another circuit, a decision against a party (e.g., the DoD) binds all that party’s operations, not just its operations in the district/circuit in which the decision was rendered. This is why the DoD suspended enforcement of DADT when a federal district judge held it to be unconstitutional.
Tom Hilton
@Jamie: Have you heard that saying stupid shit is likely to get you a beatdown?
When you’re ready to admit that you were completely fucking wrong, I’m ready to make nice.
Tom Hilton
@Oscar Leroy: What you are saying applies to no one in this thread. No. One. What you are saying is immaterial. It is pointless. You are not addressing anything in reality. No one who exists applies to what you said.
shortstop
@WereBear: That’s it, young man or young lady. The FBI is going to hear about you blatantly threatening the elderly with…the passage of time.
Suck It Up!
@dms:
this perpetual victims act is getting old.
Oscar Leroy
@Tonal Crow:
You mean the military stopped enforcing a law–and we didn’t descend into a lawless totalitarian state?!?!?
Jamie
@Tom Hilton:
ooh, OK 3rd grade recess etiquette works here. my mistake.
Mike Kay (Team America)
@TooManyJens: they were only barred in that district/circuit.
I think that’s the element people are missing, federal district
courts and federal circuit courts have a finite geographical jurisdiction. their rulings are only enforceable within the confines of their limited jurisdiction.
there is only one military, but there is also only one constitution. so any judge could strike down the death penalty based on the 8th amendment’s ban on cruel and usual punishment. any judge could strike down DOMA based on the 14th amendment’s ban against discrimination. And any judge can, and if one does, that one ruling only applies to his or her jurisdiction.
Oscar Leroy
http://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html
that’s all I have for now.
Midnight Marauder
@Oscar Leroy:
I’m pretty sure that the 9th Circuit, who is handling the appeal, issued a stay. Meaning that the law is still very much in effect and that there is no limbo. The law is still the law, despite the vigorous (and most likely successful) challenge being mounted against it.
EDIT: I mean, get fucking serious, man. Every single question you posed is a total red herring to the actual discussion being had. For starters, the ruling is already in the process of being appealed, so brush up on your fucking facts. And secondly, you clearly have no idea what happens when a court grants a stay to a law being challenged.
TooManyJens
@Oscar Leroy: They stopped enforcing a law — when a court ordered them to on the grounds that it was unconstitutional. Your point?
The Bobs
@Oscar Leroy:
Jane, you ignorant slut.
So, Obama shouldn’t have tried this because the Republicans won’t let it pass? Then you would blame him for not trying.
Martin
@Oscar Leroy: Yeah, no shit.
Let’s start at the beginning. The US government is comprised of 3 branches – the legislative (who make the laws), the executive (who execute and enforce the laws) and the judicial (who interpret and apply the law). At the outset, these were established as independent branches with the power (limited) to check the power of the others.
Now, Obama is President. The President is the head of the executive branch. He’s important because he can check the power of the legislative branch through the use of the veto, which the legislative branch can override, but he does not have the authority to make laws himself. Obama used to be a Senator, part of the legislative branch, the one that makes the laws but he isn’t any longer. I suspect you have forgotten that detail.
So while you might think that legislative failures are Obama’s fault, they really aren’t because he’s no longer a Senator. That is, he’s no longer a legislator. If he vetos a law, then by all means the legislative failure is all his. Obama is also allowed to submit bills for consideration to become laws, but he has no real power to make that happen, or even to have Congress bring that bill to a vote.
Does that help?
Omnes Omnibus
@Jamie: I take it you are new here. It can get kind of rough.
JMY
Here’s the thing about Democrats or Obama being out-messaged.
Obama: “I believe it is time to reform health care in this country, by making sure all Americans have access to health care and that Americans will not be denied because of a pre-existing condition.
Republican: “Obama wants a socialist takeover over your health care. He wants to kill your grandmother by taking over her Medicare and sending her to death panels.”
Obama: “I believe that tax cuts for the rich should expire and the middle class tax cuts should be permanent.”
Republican: “Obama is going to raise your taxes!” He’s going to increase the deficit!”
Guess which of these headlines is going to be the first thing that is talked about on the news? And because many citizens fail to research themselves, they’ll believe it. No matter how many times he or any Democrat tells the American public that the Republicans could give a fuck about the middle-class, it doesn’t work. The mid-terms proved that.
dms
@Suck It Up!: Not as much as your perpetual superiority.
Jamie
@Omnes Omnibus:
I should have figured the tone of the debate hadn’t changed. Kind of depressing really.
TooManyJens
@Mike Kay (Team America): Except — and I’m really not trying to be difficult here — If the Ninth Circuit rules the death penalty unconstitutional, then the death penalty can’t be applied by CA, OR, and WA (or whatever the 9th Circuit boundaries are). But it didn’t work that way with the injunction against DADT. I don’t know how that would even work. The injunction applied to the entire military.
Omnes Omnibus
@Oscar Leroy: Is anyone here arguing for the fucking law? No. Aw hell, what does that quotation have to do with this discussion?
shortstop
@dms: Maybe we should all vote.
Nick
@Jen7:
I’m not sure how anyone could seriously believe this
Nick
@Oscar Leroy:
So, what you’re saying is, Obama was stupid for trying to repeal this legislatively, which is how you repeal laws, because they won’t vote for it, but we should still blame Obama for not trying?
And I should take you seriously because?
Tonal Crow
@Mike Kay (Team America):
No, but not for the reason you imply. The bound party in that case would be the state of New York, not all the states. So only New York would have to comply with the decision. The same applies to your other examples.
Omnes Omnibus
@Jamie: The debate can also be erudite and substantive. It goes to ugly quickly when people post the same argument again and again after it has been shown to be false. Sometimes it is erudite, substantive, vulgar, and profane all at once. Those are the special days.
WVBlueGuy
As a proud West Virginian I am greatly disturbed that our new Senator Joe Manchin stood above his party and shouted no. He may think he is playing to some imagined base at home, but his actions in the Senate are seriously weakening him as the most junior Senator in the old boys club. At least Jay Rockefeller voted right on this one. Very active discussion about Manchin at wvablue.com.
NobodySpecial
@Suck It Up!: So is the non-professional left getting rolled.
shortstop
Jamie, who came here to play his part in an elevated dialogue, is disappointed in others’ inability to provide sophisticated discourse:
well Truman integrated the military on an executive order, Obama can get rid of DADT that way too. It might help minimize his wuss reputation too
[swift and sure multiple corrections of this error follow]
The GOP is trying to pick up the Cheney you can’t bargain with crazy people strategy.
OK I finally found it. you people talk too much.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D…..e_military Truman integrating the military.
[more corrections of this repeated error follow, less patient than the last time]
wow, somebodies cranky. low blood sugar or a hangover?
Yeah, i used to spend too much time doing this back in thee Clinton years. People haven’t polished their rhetoric much either.
Ooh you told me. Have you heard that you catch more flies with honey…?
ooh, OK 3rd grade recess etiquette works here. my mistake.
Calling Dr. Dunning and Dr. Kruger.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Oscar Leroy:
Fix’t.
Tom Hilton
@Omnes Omnibus:
That is a very kind and patient way of putting it. Let’s see if that works with Jamie.
shortstop
@Omnes Omnibus: The specialest!
Nick
@WVBlueGuy: I heard he said he’d vote for a standalone bill.
could it have been the DREAM Act that caused him to vote no?
Tonal Crow
@Mike Kay (Team America): You’re just incorrect. See http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/california/cacdce/2:2004cv08425/166387/249/0.pdf for the DADT judge’s discussion of nationwide injunctions at p.5-6.
HyperIon
@Hugh wrote:
Exactly.
Sad that so few can resist a cheap shot.
That’s the way the ‘tubes roll….or at least that’s how this site mostly rolls these days.
JPL
@shortstop: well Truman integrated the military on an executive order, Obama can get rid of DADT that way too. It might help minimize his wuss reputation too
Hmmm… Congress passed DADT and either the courts or Congress have to change it.
You are making an assumption that a President has the power to change laws. President Palin will do away with income taxes, social security and medicare by executive order if that’s true.
Mike Kay (Team America)
@TooManyJens:
Oh, I appreciate the questions you’re asking. you’re obviously interested in good ole fashion discussion, unlike others.
From a legal standpoint US District Judge Virginia Phillips has no power to enforce her injunction outside of her jurisdiction. She is constrained. Her power only exists in her district. It’s unenforceable outside.
The administration chose to appeal it, because as the article you provided said, “The administration is obligated to defend the nation’s laws from constitutional challenges…”.
Even if the President declined to appeal it, DADT would still be in force in every district outside of her jurisdiction.
It doesn’t wipe the law off the books across the country, only in her district.
A district judge can not overturn a congressional act across the country, on in her jurisdiction. Only the supreme court can overturn a congression act across the entire country.
The president suspended enforcement, because he wanted to. If he choose to, he could have kept enforcing everywhere, except in Judge Phillips’s district.
Tonal Crow
@Mike Kay (Team America): Cite your authority. Mine says you’re incorrect: see http://docs.justia.com/cases/f…../249/0.pdf for the DADT judge’s discussion of nationwide injunctions at p.5-6.
Mike Lamb
@Midnight Marauder: To further your point…all gay servicemen/women who would like to stake their career on an EO temporarily suspending the enforcement of DADT, please raise your hands…
WereBear
@shortstop: LOL!
Of course, in the times we live in, stating the bleedin’ obvious is traitorous.
johnny walker
@Mike Kay (Team America): As long as “the unemployed” is defined to the exclusion of the 99ers. Pick one:
-People who doubt the compromise do so because they don’t care about the unemployed
-You support the compromise because you don’t care about the 99ers.
No wiggling. There are only two options and you have to pick one. You cannot have both, not without dropping your bullshit strawman about mean liberals hating unemployed people anyway.
ps. Weird how they were able to get 5 other extensions without caving on the last half-decade of tax rhetoric. How oddly and conveniently coincidental.
Jay in Oregon
@Oscar Leroy:
Yeah! Everyone knows that the President has the magical “inverse veto” power which turns bills that are never even voted on (let alone passed) in the Senate into law.
That letter signed by 42 Republican Senators which said, in essence, “We ain’t passing fuck-all until we get tax cuts for the rich” sounds like a VIP shortlist for the tumbrel to me.
dms
@shortstop: Maybe you should stop short of thinking you have the inside track on being right.
You just got pwnd. What a surprise.
Midnight Marauder
@dms:
Actually, that did not happen. The quote JPL cites at 270 as though it was written by shortstop, was actually from the string on inanity that jamie wrote. All of the non italicized remarks in shortstop’s comment belong to Jamie.
But I’m sorry, you were saying something pithy?
johnny walker
@John Cole:
@John Cole:
OK, you’ve gone after the low-hanging fruit. Now how ’bout a response for the guy calling you on your dramatic, emotional Hallmark moment talking about how Manchin was so much better than the Republicans that you’d walk through broken glass to vote for him? Or does seeing the “party unity or else it’s on your ass” stuff simmer down a bit right after it causes you to get so openly fucked.
Jay in Oregon
@Corey:
What a great idea! Instead of waiting for the Tea Party Caucus to come up with a legal justification for impeaching Obama for “Presidentin’ While Black,” Obama should just hand them actual reasons for impeaching him.
In the spirit of bipartisanship, of course.
CircleSquared
@Corey: “…all other things being equal” is the often forgotten part of Occam’s Razor.
Which is why that argument doesn’t apply here.
You can’t “simplify” a root cause by deciding that part of the problem doesn’t exist, especially when part of the problem is determined to see you fail, votes accordingly, and tells the media that it knows exactly what it’s doing.
johnny walker
@John Cole:
@John Cole:
Ehh that last post was unnecessarily aggressive. I tried to edit it but there’s a permission problem. Alternate ending was something like:
Or does the “party unity or else it’s on your ass” stuff simmer down a bit when the situation’s a little more complex than shitting on liberals for insufficient loyalty?
You were on this blog a month or two ago essentially telling people that if they didn’t vote for the right team that anything bad that happened to the country was on them. Manchin’s bad but you’d crawl through glass to keep the GOP outt’ve office blah blah blah. Would you care to rethink that at all, Mr. Furthered Experiments In Authoritarianism?
Cacti
Whatever happens from here on out, I blame the black guy.
johnny walker
@Hugh: Not new and not limited to NYT. This has been going on since the Dems took back Congress; at that point the concept of the filibuster simply ceased to exist. The AP in particular is brutally bad about this stuff. At least the Times gives a small nod to procedural hurdles that someone might be able to check more into; the AP’s stuff generally is so bad that the only way to worsen it would be to tack something like, “As has always been the case on every bill in the history of the United States Senate” onto their stock “fell short of the 60 votes required for passage” formulation. Thanks for actively making us stupider AP!
Tim
OSCAR LEROY has kicked this thread’s ass along with the asses of everyone in it.
Kudos all round, O.L.
Mnemosyne
@Oscar Leroy:
There is no legal limbo right now because it is illegal to be gay and be in the military. The law is very clear — if the armed forces find out that you’re gay, they have the legal right to toss you out on your ass.
By issuing an executive order saying otherwise, Obama would put people in — wait for it — legal limbo where their actions are illegal but the armed forces are not allowed to punish them for their illegal actions.
If your argument is that they’re in legal limbo because Congress can pass whatever laws they want, that means that all of us, at all times, are living in legal limbo because the laws could change tomorrow.
You’re actually advocating for allowing people to live in legal limbo where their actions are against the law but they aren’t punished for them, and you’re pissed off that it’s not happening.
FlipYrWhig
@Cacti: I blame him for trying too hard, not trying enough, failing, and also for succeeding in ways that are too slow, too incomplete, or otherwise not to my personal satisfaction. That bastard!
shortstop
@Midnight Marauder: Thanks for delivering another smackdown of dms–better than I could’ve–while I was momentarily working for the Yankee dolla.
shortstop
@FlipYrWhig: Also, there’s just something arrogant about him. I can’t quite put my finger on it.
ETA: Is this Tim guy a parody?
Mnemosyne
@johnny walker:
Yeah, it’s almost like the Republicans won the House of Representatives for the next legislative session, which is the house of Congress from which all financial bills have to originate. It’s like the Democrats doubt that the new Republican House leaders will extend unemployment again, so they need to get it passed now or it won’t happen for another two years.
Nah, that couldn’t be it.
eemom
oh fer fucksake — Olbermann’s running with the “HILLARY woulda been a contender” schtick.
WHAT a fucking asshole.
Nick
@Mnemosyne:
They would still be allowed to court-martial you and convict you of sodomy and sent you to prison, which is what DADT sought to prevent.
Admiral_Komack
@Dennis SGMM:
“No, Obama!”
“We Democrats can’t vote on it before November because we got to get re-elected and we’re afraid of Republicans; especially Scott Brown…ohhhhhhhh! (faints).”
Admiral_Komack
@eemom:
Thank you for watching so I don’t have to.
Mnemosyne
@Oscar Leroy:
You know what else? I bet he took a shit that day. And he probably ate lunch, too, the bastard. How could he spend valuable time away from calling Senators every minute! ! ! ! !
If you really think that DADT went down in September because Obama took five minutes to call the WNBA champions, then you really are beyond hope.
Admiral_Komack
@Cacti:
But enough about Michael Steele…
JMY
@eemom:
People still watch Olbermann? Hell, I’m surprised people still read HuffPo.
And didn’t he absolutely shit on Hillary during the primaries?
FlipYrWhig
@eemom:
I originally thought that the Lawrence O’Donnell show would be the Huffington Post in televisual format. Instead, the condition metastasized. Now all of MSNBC is HuffPolarized. Well, it was kind of enjoyable to watch for a two-year stretch. Back to HGTV for me!
Omnes Omnibus
@Mnemosyne: He could have called Susan Collins from the toilet. You have to admit that would have been the LBJ move.
SFAW
I think Oscar misread it – he thought it was that Obama called NWA. Hence his upset.
fasteddie9318
@eemom:
This is the same Hillary who he helped to bury in the primary, right? I don’t want to accuse him of being a self-wanking sack of shit without being clear on the facts.
But yeah, sure, Hillary Clinton, who was intimately involved in her husband’s triangulation strategy (so named, I think, because it involved gutting liberals with sharp, triangular objects), would have been a fucking liberal lion.
Tom Q
@eemom: Considering Olbermann ran with “Hillary wants Obama to be assassinated” for two days after she innocuously pointed out how late the CA primary was in 1968, you’d think even Keith’d recognize there’s a shark he’s leaping over.
FlipYrWhig
@SFAW: Or a conference call between NWA and MBNA.
fasteddie9318
Just to see if I’ve got this straight, we’re pissed at Obama because DADT couldn’t pass the Senate in part because Joe Manchin might as well be a Republican, right? So that means that some of you seriously thought that this Senate would actually repeal DADT? I have to know, what the hell country have you people been living in for the past two years, and what’s their Senate like?
RinaX
@Admiral_Komack:
Eh, an asshole is an asshole regardless of what side of the political spectrum they’re on. I’m completely unsurprised by this. Ben Affleck nailed him in his SNL parody.
shortstop
@Omnes Omnibus: I’m screaming with glee over here.
SFAW
Flip –
Does MBNA still exist?
Elie
@WyldPirate:
But you know Wyld, you still have to show up and work it every day….
If you were on a boat in the middle of the Pacific after your ship sank, you could know somewhere inside that you were “doomed”, but I doubt you would throw yourself over the side immediately. Instead, I would assume you would still work to survive and hope that you would ..
My quibble with some of your point of view is not its fundamental accuracy at times, but with the , well now, so what do we do now? And we must keep working it in my opinion… must. We cannot afford hopelessness and the vapors about hard times ahead. In fact, we need to proceed as if we didnt know that, don’t you think?
Elie
@FlipYrWhig:
Very subtle and refined…
I am just really tired…
SFAW
Flip –
Oscar was also upset because he heard that NWA did a cover version of a song by Nina Gordon. Or somethin’.
Also, too.
A Humble Lurker
@Oscar Leroy:
No, but it would point the media in the right direction or at the very least away from the wrong one. You could argue that the media would just do it’s usual ‘blackout’ that it always does with Republicans, but Lt. Choi would at least be a thorn in the side of someone who’s actually actively fighting the repeal of DADT and has been such an obvious flip flopper/hypocrite on the issue.
Also, why was this vote held? It’s not even very likely the Republicans will vote for it after the tax deal is voted on, so why would they now?
Corner Stone
@Tom Q: Dude you are pushing your fucking luck. It is an ABSOLUTE article of faith here at BJ that HRC demanded someone assassinate Obama.
This is one of the key touchstones here.
WyldPirate
@Elie:
C’mon, Elie. I’m not bitching and saying things are necessarily hopeless, just that the methods that we are using are fucked up.
Obama and the Dems have been tactically and politically stupid. Not once, but over and over again. That’s what has pissed me off so badly. particularly about Obama.
This nightmarish horseshit going on over the tax stuff was predictable. The filibustering shit was predictable. The Rethugs have been doing it more and more for years. Afghanistan being a fucking failure was predictable. The low-balling of the stimulus was predictable. Many people predicted all of this stuff. I could go on and on, but you get my point.
I am not torqued off at Obama because I think he is a bad person. I don’t think that. Just don’t keep doing the same stupid shit over and over. That’s insanity. That’s what he is doing. That’s what the Dems are doing.
It’s time for Charley Brown to quit trying to kick the goddamned football and kick Lucy in the fucking teeth.
Corner Stone
@Martin Gifford:
Totally.
Joe Beese
Sorry I got here so late.
When Mr. Cole made his “I’ve got my mojo back” post the other day, I announced my anticipation of the occasion – which I expected might take 5 or 6 days to arrive – when Obama would kick him in the balls once again.
The merry occasion proves to have arrived ahead of schedule.
Do you recall, Mr. Cole, a few weeks ago, when you expressed your hopefulness (Obama has long since scared you out of expressing confidence) that he would get DADT repealed before year’s end?
Any follow-up comments you’d care to make?
magurakurin
but Elie, WyldPirate gets paid to encourage others to give up hope. It’s, like, you know, his job.
WyldPirate
@magurakurin:
And evidently you just say stupid shit for free, huh?
TooManyJens
@Admiral_Komack: FTW!
TooManyJens
@Corner Stone: What, did you think there was a bullshit shortage around here or something? We don’t need your donation, thanks.
Corner Stone
@TooManyJens: WTF?
Or should I say, thank you for proving my point.
TooManyJens
@Corner Stone: “One of the key touchstones here” is something nobody’s ever said? Bullshit. It’s not that hard to understand, really.
FlipYrWhig
@Corner Stone: Hey, more common ground! That kind of embarrassing display, the insistence that Hillary Clinton was speculating about violence and/or defending racism, was part of why I abandoned DailyKos after 6 years of steady participation and a low 4-digit UID.
ETA: I’ve never heard anyone bring that up around here, though.
Jsfox
@Nick:
Yes I have discovered it is more about the fight than the result. The Grayson school of politics, scream, yell, call out folks, but in the end accomplish nothing except loose an election.
TooManyJens
@FlipYrWhig:
Details, details! Just because you’ve never seen anyone bring that up here doesn’t mean it isn’t an ABSOLUTE article of faith!
Corner Stone
Are you both fucking kidding me? Were you not here for the D primaries?
Give me a fucking break. Memory hole bitches.
LiberalTarian
Here you go John, some Dan Reeder.
TooManyJens
@Corner Stone: There, there. Go cuddle up with your strawman.
Corner Stone
This was all over BJ during the primaries. If you two simps missed it don’t blame it on me.
Corner Stone
@TooManyJens: Yeah. Meh.
Corner Stone
HAHAHAHA!
A New Low
Corner Stone
I can go on and on regarding this FACT you fucking useless jackholes. BJ was home, front and fucking center to this myth.
Fuck the both of you.
Corner Stone
Yep. Fuck you both.
Corner Stone
So predictable
Corner Stone
May
But I Can Still Win If Someone Pops a Cap In His Ass- A Really Late Night Open Thread
TooManyJens
And I’ve got your own words:
I’ve even bolded the especially fuckwitted part for your convenience.
Also, if this is such an absolute article of faith, it’s funny how nobody but you said jack shit to TomQ about it.
You could maybe get over the fact that people got mad for a couple of days about a stupid and creepy thing Hillary Clinton said two and a half years ago. Or maybe we don’t have any bigger problems to focus on.
Corner Stone
@TooManyJens: Nope. It was absolutely accepted here at BJ that HRC was calling for someone to assissinate Obama.
You can’t hide from that truth. I could put up two dozen links if I wanted to.
So don’t act like you can do your pathetic best now to parse words from “demand” to “call for”, as somehow not being the same.
Fuck you simpleton.
TooManyJens
@Corner Stone: Jesus Christ, are you in training for the lying Olympics?
Corner Stone
@TooManyJens: Yeah, it’s funny only one person wants to call out that truth here. BJ commentariat doesn’t exactly appreciate being called on their bullshit.
Color me shocked.
Corner Stone
@TooManyJens: Nice. You can’t hide from your fuckup on trying to call me on something.
How many links would it take for you? Eleventy billion?
Corner Stone
@TooManyJens:
HAHAHAHAHA!!
It’s called “teh google” you fucking dumbass.
Jsfox
@Corey:
You do know he can not end DADT by executive order. Laws cannot be overturned by executive order. Yes he could do a stop loss, but that does not end DADT or suddenly allow gays to serve openly. So DADT would still exist.
Corner Stone
@FlipYrWhig: How about you Flipster? TMJ has run away in shame. You got anymore to say about this now?
SFAW
“No, you’re a fucking liar!
“No, YOU’RE a fucking liar!”
“No, YOU are a lying fucking liar!”
“No, YOU ARE!!!!!!!”
Listen, assholes, either get a room, or do the pistols-at-dawn thing. If I wanted this shit, I woulda bopped over to RedStoat.
FSM save me from three-year-olds who have learned how to comment on blogs.
WyldPirate
@Corner Stone:
hehehe…that shit left a mark..sorta like a deer being hit by a semi at 80 mph.
Nice job, CS. ;)
Corner Stone
@SFAW: Lord save me from idiots who can’t read a thread and clearly figure out what happened.
Protip – it’s not a “he said she said” kinda thing. There is an objective truth involved.
Corner Stone
I just fucking hate it when people see a back and forth and write it off as squabbling. Maybe it is.
But a lot of the time it’s some one fighting back against a lot of bullshit lies.
Sorry if that harshes your fucking mellow.
SFAW
Yeah, unfortunately the objective truth is that you and TMJ were each trying to prove the other was wrong or a liar or both. After 20 or 30 of the back-and-forth, does it really fucking matter anymore (other than to you two)?.
No maybe about it.
Well, thanks for your apology, but that last time I was mellow was … was … hell, I can’t remember that far back.
FlipYrWhig
@Corner Stone: Um, we established on a previous thread that I was not in fact hanging out here during the primaries; or, since I don’t remember when I started to stop by regularly, I guess I should say that I don’t recall having been here during that time. And I in fact said on this very thread that saying Hillary Clinton wanted to assassinate Obama was a stupid suggestion, specifically agreeing with you in the process.
Note me saying that in my original comment that you and I had found common ground. Note me likewise saying that I hadn’t _heard_ anyone bring that up around here. I suppose I could clarify that, being that I wasn’t here during the primaries, I meant in rehashes of the primary fight. I have participated in those rehashes and defended Clinton against what I find to be specious charges of racism, particularly as a campaign strategy.
What are you challenging me on? If stupid shit about assassination was said here, I don’t remember that; I may not have been coming by regularly when it was said in real time. When similar stupid shit about assassination has been said since then, I have tried to rebut it, here and elsewhere. I have a pretty solid online record as a Hillary Clinton defender.
FlipYrWhig
@FlipYrWhig: correction… not really “she wanted to assassinate Obama,” but rather “she was hoping Obama might get assassinated.”
Corner Stone
@SFAW:
Yeah. It kinda fucking does you ice cold douche.
Corner Stone
@SFAW: You fucking moron, this is the whole thing.
If you say A is the truth and douchey says no it isn’t, and y’all go at it for 5 comments, it doesn’t change the fact that A is still the fucking truth.
Except for whiny little bitches like you that somehow can’t fucking read through a couple comments to determine what actually fucking happened.
“Oh, waaaah. Somebody said something true but some other douche disagreed! I’m too fucking stupid to tell the difference between them anymore! Waaaaahhh!!”
Fuck you.
SFAW
Corner Stone, honey –
Some people would certainly agree with you that I’m a moron. But that doesn’t change the fact that you’ve become (at least in this thread) a self-justifying imbecile who is going to great lengths to prove YOU ARE FUCKING RIGHT AND TELLING THE TRUTH GODDAMMIT AND TMJ AND THE REST ARE FUCKING LIARS AND YOU HATES THEM FOREVER, PRECIOUSSSSSS!.
I am only guessing here, but I bet that people (other than you and the objects of your scorn) stopped giving a flying fuck about your little pas de deux (or is it trois? I lost count) after the 38th “Here’s even more evidence that I’m
righttelling the truth, so fuck you, you LIAR”.So instead of wasting valuable time, energy, and phosphor (so to speak) to keep showing that you’re
righttelling the truth, try either:A) Growing up, or
B) Running full speed into a brick wall, or
C) Fucking yourself
Oh, wait – you called me a whiny little bitch! Oh, I’m crushed. I take back all the mean and quasi-mean things I said, implied, or didn’t prevent others from saying. Can you ever forgive me? Oh boo-hoo-hoo! Waaah! PLEASEPLEASEPLEASE stop calling me names, before I have to go crying to my Mommy!
You moron.
SFAW
Ooh, I missed the “ice cold douche” line. My bad. Well, I’ll give you a point or two for originality.
FlipYrWhig
@SFAW: “At least in this thread”?