I was going to discuss this NY Times piece on the Obama tax cut deal, but decided I would save my time and just get this thread headed where we know the same couple of malcontents will take it anyway:
“How has Obama personally let you and the country down today?”
Now that that is out of the way, please use this thread for the usual bitching about:
1.) Gitmo not being closed
2.) Rahm
3.) Geithner
4.) the public option
5.) Obama not fighting or using the bully pulpit
And so on. Since I have dedicated this entire thread to you malcontents, please try to stay on topic in other threads. For example, the next thread I am going to talk about John Boehner. What I want you to do is to try to talk about the topic at hand, so when you get halfway through reading the post and have a Tourette’s like tug to write “ARRRGGGGHHHH-0bama didn’t push for a public option” or “RAWWR Obama is a corporate sellout,” stop what you are doing, and direct your browser to this thread, which will serve as our repository for your tired bullshit that we have hear a million god damned times already.
Deal?
kwAwk
Hmmm….. I think you forgot….
6. The stimulus was too small
7. We’re not out of Iraq and Afghanistan yet
8. We still don’t know who shot JFK
Ross Hershberger
Happy Monday, John.
Sweet Fanny Adams
Feisty.
Paris
Obama commanded Chicago’s weather to move east, or maybe its running away from Rahm. We usually don’t have this crappy of weather until January.
CT Voter
Snicker.
It’s like waving a raw steak in front of a starving dog…
I’m disappointed in Obama because it’s cold and getting colder here in CT.
debit
Obama turned me into a newt and then made me go into work anyway. RAGE!
lankyloo
Sounds like someone has a case of the Mondays.
schrodinger's cat
Should I also blame Obama for the woeful lack of Tunch pics in recent days? We want Tunch and we want him now!
MMonides
Other missing whines
#. But Krugman seyz!
#. But Greenwald seyz!
#. Hillary would have fought for us!
Sly
OK, I’ll bite. I think his education policy is myopic and amounts to little more than “NCLB with a Happy Face.” There’s just never any threads on the subject, and thats my only criticism of Obama in isolation of everything else. Race to the Top is 100% his baby, and it pretty much sucks.
He also hasn’t called up Oprah and told her to stop having that miserable authoritarian Michelle Rhee on without any counter-point. So there’s that, also, too.
MR. HOPEY CHANGY ISN’T DELIVERING BECAUSE HE HATES CHILDREN AND APPLE PIE AND MOM AND THE BIBLE AND WHITE PROGRESSIVES LIKE ME. NOW ITS OFF WITH ME TO THE VEAL PEN THATS UNDER THE BUS!
Or is the bus inside the veal pen?
Paranoia is so confusing.
guster
The pay freeze for federal workers makes me giggle.
Poopyman
All that flying around on Air Force One has seeded the clouds, and now look at what’s gone and happened.
Joe Beese
I’m afraid that this is only a stopgap measure, Mr. Cole.
Eventually, in order to stop your ears against the swelling chorus of bitching from people who Obama has kicked in the balls for the last time, you will need to start banning exisiting accounts and approving registration for new ones.
For the latter, you might consider making the registration process involved signing a loyalty oath of some kind. People who are still supporting Obama have shown the kind of authoritarian streak that should make them OK with that.
Poopyman
Did I mention that he lit the National -Christmas- Holiday Tree last week and now it’s winter?
Joe Beese
Oh, almost forgot…
The way Obama has let me down today is by being a war criminal.
kthxbai
amk
what kossack Geekesque said
Fuck the formatting. It’s all your fault, cole.
aimai
@Sweet Fanny Adams:
Pretty much. Okay. I’ll open thread it. I’m reading Stud’s Terkel’s “The ‘Good’ War” as a follow on to Paul Fussell’s The Great War in Modern Memory and boy is it fantastic. I bought it for Mr. Aimai, who doesn’t have time to read and probably isn’t as interested in this as I am, and I’ve ended up reading most of it out loud to him. Absolutely fascinating. Anyone who is interested in the fog of war, the history of histories through oral reporting (which I have been thinking about as running from slave narratives through Henry Mayhew’s London Labor and the London Poor, the WPA projects, the Mass society project etc… should defiitely look at this.
aimai
ChrisS
Enjoy 2012.
I can’t wait to hear all the fucking whining from you when Obama loses to Mitt or whatever other empty suit the GOP nominates and you blame it on the DFHs.
geg6
I don’t want to bitch about Obama today (unless he makes me, that is).
What I want to say is that Joe Sestak is absolutely the classiest politician I have ever had the pleasure of volunteering for/donating to. EVER.
Even though he lost to that piece of Randian shit Toomey, he has, in the past 4 days, sent me a personally written Christmas card (maybe an aide did it, but…) to thank me for supporting him and today I received an invite to a reception in the next county over (Lawrence Co.) to thank all his donors and volunteers in the area.
Never before in all the years since my first campaign in 1976 have I received these things from a politician for whom I worked who lost. I’ve gotten e-mails and mass-produced post cards thanking me, but never a hand-written card or a reception.
I am thinking I would like Joe Sestak to run for president in 2016. He’s classy.
Mike from Philly
Wow man. What’s it like to be like the only person smart enough to get it? Hold on, I’ll get a tissue for your tears and then you can tell me alllllll about it. I’m interested. Seriously.
amk
Sanders rox. Obama sux. So there.
CynDee
Good morning, John. Extending my appreciation to you for all you do.
I hope that you are staying warm, your car problems are fixed, Rosie behaves, Tunch stays in the house, and you are basking in the light of Lily’s love, with much satisfaction for all that you have achieved.
Oops, is this off topic?
sixers
@geg6:
Because he sent you a christmas card with probably your own donation to cover the postage? Sestak in 2012!
ChrisS
Oh wait, are getting a jumpstart on Festivus?
Is this the Airing of Grievances?
When are the Feats of Strength?
geg6
@aimai:
Studs Terkel was one of the reasons that, as an undergrad, I added a minor in history. A personal hero of mine.
And, yes, “The Good War” is an excellent and fascinating look at how real people experienced the war and the war effort through their own words. Love me some Studs oral histories.
ChrisS
@sixers:
Instead of sending it to an “independently” owned consulting firm? Sure, man.
Joe Beese
@ChrisS:
Let me give you a preview:
“You progressives are an insignificant fringe! And you’re the reason why Obama lost!”
Sweet Fanny Adams
@Joe Beese: You’d need balls in the first place for Obama to kick you in them, no? So you’ve nothing to worry about on that score.
geg6
@sixers:
You know what? You’re an ass. And it’s Sestak 2016, not 2012.
chopper
lol. well john, come on. progressives are frustrated because things aren’t going their way, so they’re bitching up a storm. and you and a number of others happen to have open blogs.
the primary shit will fade away eventually (i mean, the guy has a near-50% approval rating in the middle of the worst economy since the great depression, how stupid do you have to be to primary him?). it’s like some dude having a bad day at work and pissing at his wife when he gets home.
unfortunately for you, a lot of the bitching is happening on your blog.
stuckinred
@aimai: Have you visited the Terkel website where many of the interviews can be heard?
bozack
Oh neato, aimai, you were reading The Great War and Modern Memory? I just read it a month or two ago. It wasn’t quite what I expected– it was more a series of essays than a sustained political argument– but it was amazingly thoughtful, detailed, and wide-ranging.
One striking thing was his consistent resort to Northrup Frye, who I only knew previously as a collection of unlikely syllables. Do people still read him?
bozack
Oh neato, aimai, you were reading The Great War and Modern Memory? I just read it a month or two ago. It wasn’t quite what I expected– it was more a series of essays than a sustained political argument– but it was amazingly thoughtful, detailed, and wide-ranging.
One striking thing was his consistent resort to Northrup Frye, who I only knew previously as a collection of unlikely syllables. Do people still read him?
Woodrow "asim" Jarvis Hill
@chopper:
I’m not sure if you’ve noticed, but there’s a metric ton of stupid running around these days.
And not all of it’s on one side; I mean, how stupid do you have to be to keep believing Mark Penn to the tune of millions of dollars?
(For the Record: I don’t think either Clinton is stupid — in point of fact, they’re both amazingly smart and multi-talented people. But it’s easy to believe your own press, and end up doing stupid things.)
Linda Featheringill
I admit to being an Obot.
But I think that The Man might be wrong about the tax compromise. There are too many ways for it to come back and bite us.
Especially as we are dealing with the Republicans who don’t seem feel compelled to behave honorably.
Ohio Mom
What Sly @10 said. Most of the bloggers I follow seem to childless, or their kids are just babies or all grown up, so I’m not surprised this topic isn’t getting the attention it needs. Still, it rankles.
Probably the most important issue surrounding the Education Deform movement (of which Race to Nowhere is only one piece) is that its ultimate aim is to replace a local government — the school board, which is accountable to the public through elections and open records — with private corporations, which by definition are not accountable to the citizenry at all. And so we learn that facism can be accomplished on the local level.
But my angst about NCLB and RTT is mainly that its screwing up my kid’s life. He’s in seventh grade and he’s been stuck in a language arts class where almost all they do is read three-paragraph pieces and fill in bubbles. It’s pure test prep, and in fact, every Friday, the official lesson is “Test-taking strategies.”
The year is half over and the only piece of real literature they’ve read as a class is “Riki-Tikki Tava” (a very short story by Kipling). I hear they are going to read one book next semester, the Newbery winner “Crispin.”
It’s a completely dumbed-down curriculum because my suburban district is petrified of losing to the tests.
So yes, it’s personal.
Dave
My toast burned while I was cooking eggs for my kid this morning. Fuckin’ Obama! Primary his toaster-manipulating ass!
brewmn
The Great War and Modern Memory is a great book. I had to read it in a seminar on T.S. Eliot and His Times in college. At that time, the idea that the recognition of political and cultural disintegration could be recognized by an intellectual vanguard and captured in some of the greatest art in the history of Western civilization was a thrilling revelation.
ChrisS
I like reading about Obama from people that still support his GOP-lite agenda … it brings me back to the glory days of the Bush Administration when he tossed compassionate conservatism out the window and all the moderate republicans started in with, “well, I don’t agree with everything he’s done, but what could he have done differently?”
stuckinred
@geg6: His interviews with EB Sledge are amazing.
chopper
@ChrisS:
well of course obama will lose if you fuckbags primary a popular, accomplished president.
Lawnguylander
@ChrisS:
Wishing won’t make it so. Donate, volunteer for Mitt or whoever they nominate but don’t just sit on your hands in 2012. Be the change you can’t wait to see.
Balconesfault
I can deal with a lot of what Obama has done, and I’ve been a staunch defender of the guy … but if this payroll tax cut passes, and then gets extended or made permanent in the heat of the 2012 election and a still lagging economy … and in a few years we’re hearing how we have to gut Social Security benefits because the economics are now showing a huge shortfall … I’m going to be pissed.
Of the never forgive Obama form of pissed.
A primary challenge is stupid. But that doesn’t mean that those who want Social Security to remain a viable program long term shouldn’t be upset first about the makeup of the dog food commission, and then the potential undermining of SS’s finances that the payroll tax cut represents.
chopper
@Dave:
my wife forgot to bring the toddler’s blanket in this morning when she dropped her off at day care, so now i have to shlep in and drop it off myself.
fuckin obama.
stuckinred
@chopper: My dogs ate raisins and ended up in the ER. A Raisin in the Sun is about an African American. Obama is an African American. . .know what I’m sayin?
Joey Maloney
In which thread should we post our suspicions that the site owner is on the verge of some sort of neurological “event”? To be on-topic, I mean.
John E Williams
You should start “Balloon Juice Bingo” and at least make some money from it.
ChrisS
@Balconesfault:
Bah there will be some new great liberal hope nominated by CitiGroup and Goldman to say the right things while fucking the American people over. This is a significant nail in the coffin of Social Security. Never thought it would be a democrat to swing the hammer.
But we’ve only got one option! He’s the best of a bad situation! And look at all the good he’s done in handing out free government money to banks, pharmaceutical corporations, and insurance companies!
Lee
How about a better idea of the malcontents just keep this thread open in one tab of their browser.
Since they start off every post whining about Obama, they can put that text in this thread and hit “Submit”, then switch tabs to the other thread and actually comment on topic.
cleek
sounds like John’s blog is hurting his feefees
Linda Featheringill
Way off topic:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qybUFnY7Y8w&feature=player_embedded
Cute study of perpetual motion.
Omnes Omnibus
@ChrisS: I notice a lot of bitching coming from you. Very little in the way of positive suggestions. Okay, let’s say Obama is wrong, now what, now who? Guide us, oh knowledgeable one.
Poopyman
@stuckinred:
Obama needs charcoal?
Fuck U II: The Duckening
Christ, be careful folks. John doesn’t want anyone to step on the deep and substantiave criticism of Boehner in the next thread (hint: he’s orange and he cries).
Buck
@Lee:
Curious… what’s the opposite?
Bnut
The haters are all very Richard III, no?
Mike Kay
@geg6:
I hate to break it to you, Sestak just voted to block GITMO detainees from have trials on US soil.
http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2010/roll622.xml
https://balloon-juice.com/2010/12/13/gitmo-forever/#comment-2282458
agrippa
He has not ‘let me down’. It is illogical for me to feel that way.
Congress failed; not Obama.
It is Congress that did not pass what needed to be passed. Obama does not tell the Legislative Branch what to do; what to pass.
I realize that someone needs to be blamed; and, that Obama is a good one to blame. Life is unfair; and, deserve has nothing to do with it.
By the way: there is an election in 2012. Get ready for it.
mangrilla
@Balconesfault
“I can deal with a lot of what Obama has done, and I’ve been a staunch defender of the guy … but if this payroll tax cut passes, and then gets extended or made permanent in the heat of the 2012 election and a still lagging economy … and in a few years we’re hearing how we have to gut Social Security benefits because the economics are now showing a huge shortfall … I’m going to be pissed.
Of the never forgive Obama form of pissed.”
Exactly. The argument that Obama’s hands were tied here is one that I get, but I vehemently disagree. I know we mock the “Bully Pulpit” but I think that it goes for pretty much every Democrat on this one: No one is making the correct arguments, unless they are too off the reservation from Serious Washington Politicians (Sanders for instance). Social security is going to be dead in the water if this is how Democrats keep bargaining.
Balconesfault
@agrippa:
Huh – it seems that’s exactly what he’s doing with this deal with the GOP. Am I missing something?
Admiral_Komack
@Linda Featheringill:
Then be sure to thank Congressional Democrats for not dealing with this in September 2010.
rachel
@Balconesfault: Yes.
Admiral_Komack
@Mike Kay:
Hey now!
Obama sold us out…even when he didn’t, he did!
Now where’s my damned unicorn?
pharniel
How about we talk about the new awesomesauce questing in WoW or how Witcher 2 is only 6 months away?
Or teh fact that 3rd party support for the much malignied and now genuinely missed offline DnD 4.0 character builder has resolved most of the problems WotC decieded to put into it?
ChrisS
@Omnes Omnibus:
So, you’re what, unaware of any criticism of Obama, or you’ve conveniently dismissed any with a panglossian flourish?
Joey Maloney
@Admiral_Komack:
Fixt.
That poison pill was sitting out there for ten fucking years. Everyone knew it was coming. The “oh shit, where did that come from?” act from everyone from Obama down through NANCY SMASH to the lowliest special-election dem representative would be enough to get them fired for incompetence, were it not the case that everyone in the applicant pool for their jobs is even stupider (the ones who aren’t actually evil, and plenty are both).
Omnes Omnibus
@ChrisS: Nope, I am saying that bitching from the cheap seats is easy.
J
@aimai: Thanks for the tip, I know and admire the Fussell, but haven’t read the Terkel. In the unlikely event that you haven’t read it, may I recommend The Testament of Youth by Vera Brittain (much and rightly admired by Fussell I believe).
Oscar Leroy
@Ohio Mom:
You’re not supposed to think like that, Ohio Mom. You are messing up the narrative which says “people who complain about Obama are demanding ideological purity for its own sake.” Forget about what mom and dad are supposed to do to survive if their Social Security is slashed; this is all about anger-addicts attacking Obama just for the sake of attacking someone.
Stick with the program!
snarkypsice
@Joe Beese:
Except he won’t lose. Sorry to burst your bubble.
Oscar Leroy
@John Cole:
Oh, it’s so draining the way tone and tenor has gone downhill around here. Oh, what a shame that people are so angry and disrespectful. Why can’t people who are constantly called “Stupid”, “idiot”, “pinhead”, “moron”, and so on respond with measured thoughtfulness and topic-appropriate subject matter?
You, yourself, John Cole, are as bad at this as anyone else, and if you don’t like the climate here at Balloon Juice, look in the mirror to start finding a solution. Yes, it’s your place, but don’t hurl bitter, spiteful anger at people in lieu of a fact-based case and then wonder at the degenerating tenor of discussion. That’s a non-starter.
Admiral_Komack
@Dave:
Damn!
I’ve got rotten eggs, and my milk is spoiled!
OBAMAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
Balconesfault
Look – this wasn’t dealt with earlier because everyone was hoping that extension of the tax cuts wouldn’t be necessary at this point, and that the battle to dislink the middle class cuts from the wealthy cuts wouldn’t have to be waged.
From a budgetary POV, we need to have all of them expire. There was a reason we were starting to balance the budget in 1999, and part of it was economic growth, and part of it was that we were taxing ourselves enough to make some progress.
In a 5% unemployment economy, there would be no need for extending the middle class tax cuts right now. They would make no more sense in the face of massive deficits than extending the upper class tax cuts do right now.
Oscar Leroy
@Omnes Omnibus:
“Nope, I am saying that bitching from the cheap seats is easy. ”
LOL, as opposed to what? What you do?
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
Well, in the old days, all the Obama bashing posts started out with ‘Well, I was an Edwards supporter..’. At least THAT finally stopped, and should be a big indicator of the wisdom and political savvy of these special trolls. If they’d had their way, I do believe we’d be in worse shape than we are now.
geg6
@Mike Kay:
Yeah, I know. As a part of H.R. 3082, an appropriations bill for the VA and DOD military construction. An amendment added at the very last minute. I don’t expect Joe, a huge supporter of veterans and the VA, to vote against a bill that the GOPers added a poison pill amendment to. The bill wasn’t really about Gitmo, but I don’t expect an asshole like you to give a shit about veterans when you can get your purity rage on.
Woodrow "asim" Jarvis Hill
@snarkypsice: Indeed. Ed Brayton — hardly a unalloyed fan of the Obama Administraion, given that he’s called for Obama to be impeached over issues like warrantless wiretapping — just posted this amazing piece of forgotten history he found at Salon:
The biggest problem isn’t that people are idiots. It’s that we tend to be so amazingly short-minded and timed that we forget to even check to see what past, similar instances were like.
Ash Can
ITS FUCKIN COLD OUT AND MY CAPSLOCK KEY IS STUCK THIS IS ALL OBAMAS FAULT GODDAMMIT
PS I AM NOT A RACIST
D-Chance.
… the next thread I am going to talk about John Boehner.
Just save us the time. “John Boehner is orange. Too. Also.”
There.
Oscar Leroy
@ChrisS:
“Enjoy 2012. I can’t wait to hear all the fucking whining from you when Obama loses to Mitt or whatever other empty suit the GOP nominates and you blame it on the DFHs. ”
Poll: Obama’s losing support; Romney would beat him now
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/12/10/105105/poll-obamas-losing-support-romney.html
Joey Maloney
@Balconesfault:
Any legislator who looked at the current crop of Republicans and seriously thought this, seriously thought that they would not fight as dirty as possible to preserve any tax cuts, ANY tax cuts regardless of whether they made fiscal or economic or any other kind of sense should have been examined for cerebral trauma immediately. And if they didn’t prove to have the excuse of some sort of head injury for making them think that, they should have been given one.
Woodrow "asim" Jarvis Hill
@Balconesfault: There’s a mad jump between “asking” and “telling”. That agreement, like every agreement every President has ever made with a Congress, is non-binding — if it was, DeMint’s posturing with be just that, instead of a real threat to the GOP leadership and a bone to the Tea Party, who HATES this bill with a passion.
Presidents can ask for any damned laws they want, all day long. They don’t, in part, because asking all the time gets Congressfolks annoyed. With no direct power to compel law, a President has to depend on their abilities as a negotiator, and, yes, a compromiser — even with their own Party.
timb
@debit: I got better
timb
@Joe Beese: Joe, you certainly do seem insignificant
Balconesfault
@Joey Maloney:
Not true. It’s the tax cuts on the wealthy that they’re truly dedicated to preserving. Everything else is just optics to make sure that they can do this.
ChrisS
@Oscar Leroy:
I wouldn’t put too much stock in a single McClatchy poll, but 2012 is going to be a rude awakening for the Democrats. The Senate could be a blood bath (21D seats up against 10 R seats) and Obama isn’t a lock for shit (he won’t have a rightwing third party candidate and a roaring economy to aid him like Clinton did in 1996). Toss in some new house losses and the Government could be 100% GOP nutters in control of all three branches.
Thankfully we will have our tax breaks.
chopper
@Oscar Leroy:
i love press releases about polls, they get it so wrong. of course, chumps like you cling to the headline and get it wrong too.
Joey Maloney
@Balconesfault: Granted, but that is central to my point, which I believe no one has ever blah blah with such care yadda yadda.
agrippa
@Balconesfault:
No.
He is not.
They are moral agents who make choices.
WyldPirate
@Oscar Leroy:
Damn, Oscar. Don’t you know how hard it is for Omnes Omnibus to pull all of those excuses from his asshole when Obama just bargains things away out of the blue before he even starts negotiating?
Keith G
@Balconesfault:
IIRC, this wasn’t dealt with earlier because the appropriate legislation could not make it out of the Senate, so the vote was never called. Short of wacking a handful of conservative-acting Democrats and getting more moderate replacements, this was how it was destined to play out it seems.
New Yorker
BTW, why are we talking about primarying Obama? Isn’t it Ralph Nader’s job to run a quixotic vanity campaign to siphon votes from the whiny left who can’t stand that Obama won’t give them world peace, universal single-payer coverage, and free puppies for everyone?
Oscar Leroy
@Balconesfault:
“It’s the tax cuts on the wealthy that they’re truly dedicated to preserving. ”
Sure, that’s their main priority, but they just plain like tax cuts in general. Cutting taxes reinforces the Republican theme that government is the problem, never the solution.
In that stupid “Pledge to America” the Republican party put out, they mention the Child Tax Credit as something they like and want to continue:
http://pledge.gop.gov/resources/library/documents/pledge/a-pledge-to-america.pdf
Odie Hugh Manatee
This is an excellent idea that the trolls will just ignore…lol! I like that I can easily find all of the stupid in one place here. Do this daily and it’ll be like a trip through the drive-in crazy zoo.
It may eventually become a regular attraction!
Mrs. Peel
They’ll have that even if Obama wins.
chopper
@New Yorker:
apparently, the nader-voting progressives who helped give us president george w bush think they’ll get it right the second time around. trust them, they did their homework this time.
Oscar Leroy
@ChrisS:
“I wouldn’t put too much stock in a single McClatchy poll”
Me neither. But every poll shows Obama’s approval rating going down.
@chopper:
What am I supposed to think about that piece of crap you just wrote? Is that meant to persuade someone of something? Is there some manner of argument hidden within? What’s the point of writing something like that? If you want to present a case for something, present it.
aimai
@J:
Yes, I have read it. You know what is even better than Testament of Youth? A fantastic “fictional” autobiographical novel called “Not So Quiet On the Western Front” which is told from the point of view of a bunch of British nurses. Its so real that it seems realer than real.
I did my bit on this thread to distract everyone from the question of whether Obama is or is not History’s Greatest Monster. I think I’ve turned to reading history right now both because its fun and because it reminds me that no one knows exactly the right thing to do at any given political moment. There are always hostages. And always people paying the price. The bargaining field is not a level playing field. Sometimes even pretty smart people have tunnel vision, or flaws in their makeup, or weaknesses that make them do things that seem absurd to outsiders. Sometimes they have duties to people that they feel they must manage which seem irrelevant or unnecessary to us.
I think psychoanalyzing Obama is interesting insofar as it helps progressives grasp what he’s likely to do next (the kinds of bargains he’s likely to try to strike) and if it helps progressives get organized in advance to pressure Obama and the congressional dems to move in directions we find better–or to use strategies that we think would be more successful. The recent Kos piece by BrooklynBadBoy struck the right analytic note, to me. He points out that Obama values certain things I, personally, don’t value: compromise, civility, legislation, etc… I find that useful as a tool for assessing the current state of play and the things I’m likely to see over the next two years.
I’m really not interested in assigning blame to either Obama or the voters/believers/refuseniks as a form of personal therapy. Obama’s a pretty good human being trying to do a lot of complicated stuff without a good team and against a really good team. I feel sorry for him (and for us) and I’d like to find ways to help my team/the democrats play to win instead of always playing not to lose everything. That’s about the size of it.
aimai
j low
I’m really pissed at John Cole for everything that Obama has not accomplished.
Oscar Leroy
@WyldPirate:
Haha, looking back I see Omnes wrote this:
“I notice a lot of bitching coming from you. Very little in the way of positive suggestions.”
I wonder if he kept a straight face while typing that?
Balconesfault
@WyldPirate:
This has been the most infuriating tendency of Obama’s … and possibly his biggest failure from a political perspective.
Start with the stimulus – yeah, Obama made sure that the package was more acceptable to the GOP from the beginning by including lots of tax cuts and keeping it under 1 trillion.
What Obama seems to never have understood is that the GOP wants to bargain and win. And if the other side gives you a lot of what you want from the beginning, it’s not the satisfying blood fight that your constituents demand … so you have to draw some other line in the sand to prove you’re fighting for them.
Had Obama, in February of 2009, rolled out a 1.4 trillion stimulus with no tax cuts … and then had it worked down via negotiations to a 800 billion stimulus with 300 billion in tax cuts … the last 20 months we’d have been hearing about what a wise, reasoned, moderate voice he is – willing to make the tough bipartisan compromises – and how the GOP is a bunch of ungrateful SOBs for getting such big concessions and then voting against the bill anyway.
Time and time again he initiates the legislative process by figuring out where both sides are, and trying to split the difference with his original public proposal. It reminds me of Brian trying to deal with the beard salesman who wanted the spectacle of haggling, while Brian just wanted his damn beard.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Mike Kay:
Damn, another liberal hero down for the count. I am sure his supporters will be quick to blame Obama.
chopper
@Oscar Leroy:
here’s a clue when it comes to reading polls. when two people are polling within 2 points of each other and the margin of error is 3.5 percent, it’s called a ‘tie’, sensational headlines nonwithstanding.
Xenos
@chopper:
This feels like an emerging meme – and it fits the meter of The Dead Milkmen’s “Bitching Camaro” just perfectly.
chopper
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
like by perfection, die by perfection.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Admiral_Komack:
He’s right here, slaying ponies!
Suck It Up!
Jeebus! can you guys pick someone who hasn’t recently lost an election?
shortstop
@stuckinred and aimai: I once ran into Studs Terkel on the 36 Broadway bus and starfucked him all over the place. He was quite kind and admirably self-deprecating as I gushed about The Good War and some of his other efforts.
chopper
@Xenos:
fuckin obama, fuckin obama, made me late for work
fuckin obama, fuckin obama, he’s why my boss’s a jerk
Paris
@chopper: Last I checked, Gore won. Try blaming the people in the Supreme Court who were responsible, plus the number of Dems in Fla that voted for Bush. The Obama complainers are bad enough, at least argue with facts.
Stillwater
@WyldPirate: Don’t you know how hard it is for Omnes Omnibus to pull all of those excuses from his asshole when Obama just bargains things away out of the blue before he even starts negotiating?
Look, you’re a smart guy, what you wrote here is deliberately stupid. Do you really think that Obama just sits around in the Oval Office, alone with his thoughts and feelings, oblivious to the whims and desires of members of Congress, dreaming up shitty compromises to spring on the public? Or is it that maybe he understands what a bunch of dickweeds fill the Senate, and he tries to come up with something that will attract some votes?
Odie Hugh Manatee
@chopper:
Great, now the Nader Patrol is going to drop in to tell us all how cool Ralph Mouth is and how everyone else is stinky.
At least it’s in the right thread!
timb
@ChrisS: Chris, you should take more medication….medication you might be able to receive with the Insurance reform (the greatest entitlement program since 1965) that the President helped pass.
I know he’s not as perfect as Jesus, but, if you want to follow heroes, sports is always option. Politicians will ALWAYS let you down, because governing is not about winning. it’s about compromise and progress.
chopper
@Paris:
so bush-voting dems bear some responsibility for keeping gore out of the white house, but not nader-voting progressives. gotcha. if nader-voting progressives hadn’t swallowed all that garbage about gore being no different than bush we wouldn’t even be talking about the supreme court.
and i didn’t say they did it alone. but they sure as shit gave us the ‘the dems and gop are one and the same’ shtick back then too. this is just the same shitjob with a new coat of paint and a bunch of hope that we’ve all forgotten.
timb
@ChrisS: You mean the same payroll tax holiday that Goldman stooge Paul Krugman has been championing since 2009?
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Stillwater:
Let me guess WyldChyld’s response:
Yes.
No.
Was I right?
shortstop
@Stillwater:
Objection. Assumes facts not in evidence.
Dr. Squid
@Oscar Leroy: Awwww. Poor little ratfucker Oscar. Someone cwiticized you. I don’t know how you’ll survive because it’s just like Bosnia. Waah.
Seriously, what have you ever done, besides being a ratfucking firebagger troll that supports someone whose PAC has only given money to Paul Ryan?
eemom
tee hee. This blog now comes pre-trolled.
Actually it is kind of sad, that certain trolls are so lacking in humor and/or self-respect that when John snarkily invites them to come in and spew the same old tired Obama-bashing lines for the eighty zillionth time, they……come in and spew the same old tired Obama-bashing lines for the eighty zillionth time.
In the spirit of the holiday season, perhaps it’s time for a “Toys for Trolls” drive…..
chopper
@timb:
these are the sort of people that walk out of the stadium after the first play of the game demanding that their team’s coach be hanged from a light pole.
geg6
@Suck It Up!:
You guys? What guys? It’s just little ol’ me saying this because I admire the man and find him to be much more human and interesting than almost any other pol out there. I don’t know what big movement you think I’m a part of but whatever you’re thinking, you’re wrong. I’m not an Obot and I’m not a Firebagger. I’m somewhere in between, which means I’m your average, every day lifelong Democrat who is happy to find a Dem that isn’t weak or insane. He may have lost the senate seat, but he lost it in a squeaker in a purple state in an election cycle that was poisonous to Dems. I’m pretty happy with how Joe landed considering the climate. I hope he runs again. Many times.
Balconesfault
@Stillwater:
I think that Obama wants to be viewed as a “reasonable guy”, so he tries to start negotiations with a deal that he thinks any reasonable opposition should be willing to accept and support.
This would be successful if you’re working with opposition who shares your overall goals and appreciates your moderation. It sucks when you’re working with opposition whose only goal is to see you fail, and is ready to argue that the things they were demanding last week are now signs of liberal overreach.
timb
@Oscar Leroy: So, you have something to celebrate? Will you be donating to Sarahpac or just getting a yard sign?
Blue Neponset
@chopper: If the Naderites are that important to winning in 2012 then maybe Obama shouldn’t go out of his way to piss them off?
amk
@ChrisS: Got kicked out of dkos ? You were that bad a whiner there ?
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Dr. Squid:
Now we are going to regaled with Oscar’s Imaginary List of His of Progressive Accomplishments which he will then compare to your complete failure to make something of yourself as a progressive.
Ignore him, Oscar’s always been a grouch. Living in a trash can will do that to a muppet.
timb
@New Yorker: They gave us George W. Why can’t they give us Mitt or Sarah or Rudy? Go, disaffected “liberals”! Rage at the moon and make sure Obama goes the way of Gore.
I swear reading this ChrisS and Wyld Pirate is like reading Protein Wisdom without the witty Corey Haim posts….or Stacy McCain without the KKK leanings
shortstop
@chopper:
Odie Hugh Manatee
@amk:
No. It’s all whining there and ChrisS voice is getting lost in the din because it all sounds the same now. They just came over here to yell and be heard, it validates their existence.
timb
@shortstop: Like you making the sad choice to be a Cubs fan? The universe is against you, shortstop, don’t blame Lou and Dusty for that!
homerhk
@balconesfault – I do find it funny how commentators on blogs are so sure that if only they had been negotiating they would have done better. Here’s a thought and perhaps a tip – President Obama is the president. He got there not through a golden inheritance, connections or personal wealth – he got there through his own hard work, persuading people to join with him on what was initially a quixotic campaign, and gradually persuading the country too. Whatever you may think of his policy preferences, the man is not a naif. You think that if he had asked for a 1.4 trillion stimulus that would have been negotiated down? Negotiating is not a science – it isn’t all I want X so I’ll ask for Y to bargain down to X. That’s part of it, but if Y is SO unobtainable, you just get laughed at or the other guy storms out of the room. So, please, discard the bad negotiation meme and consider that in an era of unrelenting opposition to anything that has Obama’s name on it, he managed to ‘negotiate’ health care, financial reform, student loan reform, a New Start treaty, and countless other things.
I would also say that it seems to me that it’s always those people who complain about Obama’s negotiation that also complain that when he does twist someone’s arm (a la Kucinich) he’s just playing politics as usual.
A line in one of JC’s recent posts got me the most – it talked about treating the President with some fucking respect. That doesn’t mean being overawed with him or his office or never criticising, but for God’s sake respect the fact that he got there, that’s he’s governing the way he thinks best and give him the fucking benefit of the doubt when it comes to the ‘soft skills’ crap – which he’s clearly got in abundance.
Karlisle
Here’s my biggest complaint about the prez. There are many others, but I think this one says it all. DADT.
I was royally pissed when the DOJ defending DOMA using the most disgusting Family-Research-Council bullshit imaginable, but that’s forgivable. There’s lawyers left over from Bush, and maybe the President shouldn’t be picking and choosing what laws from Congress s/he should defend and ignore. Fine, I let it go, but I get one free Fuck You for that one.
He could end DADT by signing an executive order for the Pentagon to stop enforcing. Same problem, DADT was signed by Congress, and even though this would be a great service to the rest of us Cocksucker-Americans (and lesbians- I’m not a lesbian so I don’t get to speak in a derogatory manner about them), but it opens the door to gay rights being subject to the whims of whomever sits in the oval office. Fine, but I get another Fuck You for that.
But then the courts struck down DADT, and Obama has the perfect opportunity to let it die a good, face-saving death. All he had to do was not appeal, i.e. do absolutely nothing. But instead he appealed. And for what? To hold up this obviously unjust law that he opposes? What is accomplished by Obama preferring to spend his very limited political capital on this issue, when he could neutralize it by not doing anything? To preserve the sanctity of the congressional debate process? The lives of gay servicemen and -women are less importunate than making sure John McCain and Ben Nelson have their say?
With all due respect, Fuck You Mr. President. These are actual peoples lives that are being ruined. Getting a Dishonorable Discharge sucks hard. You lose your benefits. You get to start a new career at Starbucks (if there are any of those positions available, of course. We’ve got laid-off baby boomers and college grads who never found a real corporate whore job to compete with, after all).
And for what? The republican are going to call you a soshalist kenyan marxist hitler/mao hybrid no matter what you do. David Broder still won’t be able to get it up until Sam Nunn or Joe Lieberman is president (I’m dumping my stock in Pfizer if there’s a Nunn-Lieberman Unity ’12 ticket). What, exactly, have you gained by letting this continue?
I tried so hard to believe in the man, but I’m left with only one conclusion- he’s just not that into us. I don’t care if he makes fun of the professional left or calls me a faggot, as long as at the end of the day I’m just a tiny bit better off because he is president.
shortstop
@timb: There’s pointing out the facts and then there’s just plain cruelty, Tim. I’d like you to take a few moments to think about what you just said to me.
Anyway, I never really walk out. I’m a spineless appeaser from way back. I just can’t get over the stupid idea that in politics and in baseball, there’s more than one inning in a game.
ETA: Given the tone and tenor of this blog lately, I feel like I have to point out that my first paragraph was a joke made in good humor.
chopper
@Blue Neponset:
gore didn’t do much to piss them off in 2000, but they still went full retard with the gop equivalence shit.
listen, i don’t think manic progressives aren’t going to cost obama the election, unless they do something as stupid as primarying the guy. but the idiotic black-and-white thinking is just getting tiresome. they were dead wrong back then and they’re dead wrong now, and i’m not too interested in listening to the guys whose rigid political orthodoxy helped give us george bush bitch about how the same garbage with a fresh coat of paint now applies to obama.
obama’s going to piss those guys off either way just by getting up in the morning anyways.
Mike Kay(Democrat of the Century)
@geg6:
Of which country?
chopper
@timb:
being a cubs fan isn’t a choice.
timb
@Karlisle:
The DOD, admittedly not my favorite source for information on this, claims that ending it that way would create problems. In fact, Mullen said constantly, to anyone who would listen, that he wants to phase it out through legislation, not judicial fiat. As a lib and a lawyer, I think he should fuck off, but it doesn’t seem terribly wrong for the President to listen to the DOD, so that one Fed Ct district is forbidding it while 10 others allow it.
Balconesfault
@homerhk: All very well and good … @homerhk:
Yep.
Agreed.
Yep.
I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but the GOP has stormed out of the room up to now everytime Obama has proposed anything.
Chrisd
I’m a relatively new poster unfamiliar with the specifics of Cole’s trajectory from Republican to Democrat. Did he go through a similar phase of denial and anger before accepting he was wrong about Bush all along?
And how long did it take? Because this shit is tedious.
timb
@shortstop: I made it good humor. I’m a Reds fan….who the hell can I kick around? My hopes for a successful future are tied up with Dusty! Now, you know why I don’t sweat Obama’s disappointing me on some issues. when it comes to future sadness, Dusty is much more likely to break my heart, than the guy who spent an entire election telling me he wasn’t nearly as liberal as I wished he were (sadly, Wylde Pirate wasn’t listening to that, as he was too busy swooning over the new FDR)
homerhk
Balcones, well my point was that even with Republicans storming out, he has managed to get a number of pretty progressive laws passed. doesn’t that speak well of his negotiating ability, i.e. the ability to find the point of agreement for all people, something which, by the way, is a consistent trend throughout his Audacity to Hope book.
Mike Kay (Democrat of the Century)
@geg6:
Of which country??
Suffern ACE
@Balconesfault: Unfortunately, there is no politician in his right mind that is going to touch those middle class tax cuts at 5% unemployment or 1% unemployment or 50% unemployment. The Dems pander on that issue as much as the Reps. Even if, say, that lower tax rate leads to cutting or creating programs to ease the life of the middle class. They would, in the end, rather pay lower taxes and take on debt to send their kids to college and file for bankruptcy when they become sick (surprise! you have a human body and from time to time it falls apart!) and their health costs exceed their insurance coverage.
I can’t blame the Dems for not being able to outfox the Reps on the tax promise (pander), but until someone wins while promising higher taxes for the middle class, I don’t see “Tax Reform” being a winner.
DPirate
Deal.
From that article I gather that this tax bill/deal is just political strategy meant to gain votes for his re-election. It does nothing to help the country generally, except insofar as people have a few more dollars to spend for a year or two, and more or less is a naked attempt to sluff off culpability onto the opposition. That’s not what I look for in a leader, I’m afraid. A few hundred dollars isn’t going to guarantee anyone’s future. I guess that other than the obvious vote bribery, the hope is we will all purchase a new apple device.
chopper
@timb:
split circuits are always pretty wacky. the good part is they lead to a supreme court showdown, the bad part is the scotus ends up coming up with some stupid reason to only rule on one tiny part of the case and all the big buildup was for nothing.
General Stuck
@Karlisle:
discharges under dadt are General Under Honorable Conditions types. There is no benefit loss, and these type
discharges are used for all sorts of other reasons besides dadt.
They shouldn’t have been discharged at all, and there are good people trying to get this odious law repealed once and for all, all the way from the president to top generals. It will be repealed sooner rather than later/
timb
@chopper: Yeah, and with all the Catholic holy warriors on SCOTUS, I would rather avoid a modern day Dred Scott aimed at gays and lesbians.
Do you wonder where Alito, Roberts, Thomas, and Scalia are voting? Most of them are still griping about Lawrence (and for that matter Griswald, although I think Thomas probably like Loving v Virgina!)
General Stuck
@General Stuck:
I should say discharges these days for allegedly violating dadt is nearly always General under honorable conditions. That has not always been the case, in the past.
Karlisle
@timb: Who cares what Mullen or the DOD has to say about it? I thought he’s the Commander-in-chief.
Someone please tell me why the process that never works (Congress) is preferable to the one that does work (just ending it). What is gained in this process? Why do we want MORE choke points?
shortstop
@timb: I’m not so sure about that. I’d bet Thomas is perfectly capable of arguing against Loving regardless of his own situation. I really think the asshole would and could do it.
@General Stuck:
Making no comment on whether executive order is a wise or sustainable path, I don’t see how you can reasonably arrive at the conclusion that legislative action will happen sooner rather than later.
Dr. Squid
@timb: clarence Thomas is one of those “I got mine” conservatives, so if Loving gets invalidated, he won’t care because it won’t retroactively invalidate his marriage.
Balconesfault
@homerhk:
I’m with you – it’s been an impressive list.
But those laws have been progressive … but not super-liberal. But they’ve been framed by the right successfully as super-liberal, and that’s a big reason I think why his popularity is eroding.
Karlisle
@General Stuck: Obviously, you’re not familiar with the U.S. Military’s ability to screw you on the way out. They aren’t SUPPOSED to get DH’s but it happens.
Yes, there are good people working for this. Mr. President, please pick up your pen and give them a win.
General Stuck
@shortstop:
I arrive at that opinion because the military itself, and it’s current top brass, want it to be. The wingnuts are isolated, even from some of their own. I maintain, that once the military leadership is on board, it is only a matter of time till the wingers cave, or enough of them, to the will of the military they hold in high regard. Sooner rather than later is a completely relative term, and of course, I could be wrong. But that is my opinion.
Dr. Squid
@Karlisle: Because if there’s anything that Congress likes to do, it’s throw a hissy fit when they get bypassed. To wit: executive order overturning DADT results in an act of Congress keeping gays out of the military forever, or at least until another act of Congress overturns that act.
Karlisle
@Dr. Squid: Let them throw a hissy fit. No one cares except David Broder.
If they pass a bill, veto it.
timb
@Karlisle: I get that you’re emotional on the subject. Not sure who on this page isn’t.
Still, the Executive branch just can’t go around invalidating laws, Karlisle, no matter how much you might want them to. I take an extremely pragmatic and liberal view on the law and even I don’t like that (mainly, because i didn’t like it when George the Second did it ).
As far as Mullen goes, he’s on our side, in case you didn’t notice. Blaming Obama for something that Susan Collins, Scott Brown and Joe Machin did seems “ChrisS-esque” to me.
General Stuck
@Karlisle:
I am a military vet, so I do have a clue, and sometimes, in some instances, dadt victims get screwed with a bad conduct discharge, as do other soldiers, but to get a dishonorable one, you have to be court martialed, and that isn’t happening very often these days, from what I know about it. And discharges can and are reviewed afterwards to correct injustices. The high profile nature of this issue makes that pretty rare though.
timb
@Karlisle: And, if Wylde Pirate gets his way and there’s a REPUBLICAN president? Who vetoes it then?
chopper
@timb:
yeah, this. obama can change DADT with a stroke of the pen, but only temporarily and only as an emergency measure. if he tries to completely overturn a federal law with an EO, it’s pretty clearly unconstitutional and O would get spanked at the supreme court.
an EO is the worst of the three options, and it doesn’t provide ‘breathing room’ for either of the two left, instead it gives them an excuse to drop the whole thing and kick the can down the road a few years when congress is going to be even more republican.
Elie
What is the most difficult thing for me to understand is the public’s and our inability to truly grasp the nature of governance or management of anything complex.
So many seem to hold the belief that you can run the government and set policy in clean, uniform, all your way, positive only streams, without set backs and huge opposition. Even in non government organizations, most new policy and initiatives are hard won and success is frequently accompanied by the difficulty of mistakes or failure.
I am tired of reading the ignorance and the simplemindedness on our own side. We can and should debate whether at any point in time a strategy or trade off should have been made, but damn, there will be tradeoffs and retreats and downright failures. But none of this is allowed in the standards we hold for others — but obivously not ourselves — perpetually in reality show mode — “You didn’t make a perfectly smooth sauce in the five minutes that normally takes two hours to reduce, but you are chopped anyway!”
Do you folks actually think it will be better for the next President, even if he was a Democrat and had all the appropriate liberal creds? Or, unfortunately more likely, are we just ungovernable… so we can look forward to more dysfunctionality and even more control by the corporate assholes who know they can manipulate us by throwing just a little sand in the gears…that we will never never never have stomach for the hard, long fight. We will cut the knees out from any leader within months of gaining office, rejecting the whole for any one part we do not agree with at any moment… expecting magic and coherence without understanding how anything actually gets done.
I have no idea whether at the end of the day, Obama is going to be on the whole more or less successful. Too much up in the air, too much complexity for me to know that completely. I know this though: none of you know either.
In any case, its not about Obama, who sooner or later will be off the national stage. Its about us and this country. Are we governable? Do we truly understand how things get done in real world ways, not someone’s fantasy of top down command and control? I definitely do not think so.
fasteddie9318
You forgot Larry Summers, although him and Geithner do kind of piss me off even though I can agree that the bully pulpit thing (the font of most of the rest of the complaints) is bullshit.
Keith G
@Karlisle: I understand your anger. Still I think an EO as you describe it would be very problematic as there are many other issues to be dealt with other than just to discharge or not – such as base housing for family and other benefits.
Let’s say an EO was issued and was “successful”. That in and of itself might take the pressure off further consideration of the benefits issue. Thus one could be a gay soldier, but there would be no support for one’s “family”, as it were.
The above is from Sully and as happens every once in a while, he is quite right.
edited
SadOldVet
My major additions to the list are
1) The failure of Obama’s DOJ to investigate and prosecute the crimes of the Bush administration including, but not limited to:
– torture
– illegal wiretapping
2) Our continued presence in Iraq and expansion of the war in Afganistan
John Cole claims to be a ‘former’ republican but appears to still have the republican mindset (now applied to Obama) that any criticism of the president is unpatriotic and unforgivable.
Get over it John!
Mike Kay (Democrat of the Century)
I love how the slightest bit of mockery by Cole brings all the firebaggers out of the wood work.
what i can’t figure out is how they signal each other. Do they use smoke signals, do they use their antennae, do they speak in Klingon or maybe a vuvuzela?
burnspbesq
@Admiral_Komack:
Obama killed your unicorn and had the White House Mess make it into dog food for his pooch.
Mike Kay (Democrat of the Century)
@SadOldVet: I got a question for ya, why didn’t Nancy Pelosi ever hold watergate style investigations into illegal wiretapping and torture?
Hmmm, I wonder why?
burnspbesq
@timb:
Well, you’ve just removed any lingering doubt about the fact that you are totally disconnected from reality.
burnspbesq
@Karlisle:
Are you really that stupid?
The District Court declared DADT unconstitutional. Regardless of whether it’s good policy or not (and for the record, I think it’s bad policy), it is not obviously unconstitutional. And the job of the Justice Department is to defend laws that are passed by Congress and signed by the President against constitutional challenge. I hope the Ninth Circuit affirms and the Supremes deny cert, but this is the way the system is supposed to work. If you have a problem with this, I will help you find directions to the graves of Hamilton, Madison, and Jay, because that’s who your beef is with, not Obama.
Karlisle
timb has definitely missed the point.
I’m not blaming Obama for what Collins, Manchin and Brown do. I’m blaming him for valuing their right as elected officials to screw up the process over the actual lives of servicemen and -women.
And all of this talk of the correct strategy, the efficacy and constitutionality of using an EO to overturn the will of Congress is BS. The president has enormous power, not just to actually change the law but to set the standard going forward.
Let the next congress actively pass a law to kick thousands of people out of the military. Let the President Palin sign that law. Let’s see how far they get, when the DOD pushes back on their loss of manpower.
We’re kidding ourselves arguing the minutae of what is the right way to do it. Just do it. The American people have already moved beyond this.
We’ve used the power of the Presidency to torture, start wars, “signing statements”, and god only knows what else.
Just once, it needs to be used for good.
SadOldVet
It was Obama, not Nancy Pelosi, who told Holder and the DOJ that “we want to look forward and not behind us” and to NOT investigate the Bush administration.
By international law and treaty, we (the United States) is required to investigate war crimes. Yet, we now have Bush and Cheney proudly proclaiming their war crime actions (torture) and nothing is being done about it in our country. The United States was a major participant in the trials and executions of Japanese, after WWII, for waterboarding.
Does AMERICAN EXCEPTIONALISM mean that our politicians are excepted from the same accountability that we expect of other countries?
Bush and Cheney belong in front of an International War Crimes Tribunal!
Mike Kay (Democrat of the Century)
@burnspbesq: what’s funny is whenever KThug trashes Obama, the firetards run around the net saying, “we must listen to Krugman because he’s an expert”.
But when KThug is in favor of something they don’t like (NAFTA, PNTR, CAFTA, Cadillac Tax, and now a payroll tax holiday) they trash him as an enron stooge, an obama stooge, an goldman stooge, an elitist who’s out of touch stooge, etc.. and they no longer want to hear from this “expert”. If their hypocrisy wasn’t so funny it would require meds.
shortstop
@burnspbesq: Not so much. Your sarcasm meter needs its 5,000-mile checkup, however.
@General Stuck: You have a much more optimistic view than I of the likelihood that current Senate Republicans (who are likely to be the majority or at least a larger group after 2012) will be persuadable on this issue. On this, as on other issues on which they’re stubbornly operating against public opinion, the lure of flatly opposing Obama is just too shiny for them to resist. I’m not sure why you think this will be the issue on which they find they just have to go along with the majority of Americans, particularly when it’s such a good fundraiser and emotional button-pusher among the fringiest of their base.
Of course I hope you’re right and I’m wrong. As you say, “sooner” is a wholly subjective measurement and we probably have differing definitions.
For reasons others have stated above, I’m not suggesting that an EO is the solution. But I think we need to be as open-eyed as possible about what the Senate is going to do or not do.
Mike Kay (Democrat of the Century)
@SadOldVet: don’t by a puzzy, answer the question, why didn’t Nancy Pelosi hold watergate style investigations into torture and illegal wiretapping when she became Speaker in 2006?
Why did nancy go so far as to, in her famous words, “take impeachment off the table” ???
In 1973, Congress had no apprehension in investigating Nixon, so why did Nancy block Congressional investigations?
FeFiFo
Its pretty simple for me – either you’re fighting for the 98% of Americans that have been soaked dry by the top 2%, or you’re fighting for the top 2%. Regardless of whatever excuse people come up with for any Democrat sucking up to the oligarchs, they’re still sucking up to the oligarchs at the expense of the vast, vast majority of Americans.
I’m interested to see how many new members the Democratic Socialists got after Sanders’ honorable and much-needed reality check on Friday. Sorry Team Blue, I’m done with you.
Joe Beese
@SadOldVet:
People like Mr. Cole and Andrew Sullivan never change their authoritarian mindset.
They just change which authoritarian they like.
Comrade Dread
I’m still waiting for my magical unity pony.
In other news, Federal judge invalidates individual mandate: http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/12/13/health.care/index.html?hpt=T1&iref=BN1
I was never convinced of the constitutionality of it, and thought HRC was largely a Rockefeller Republican type plan, but I always find it funny to see in an esoteric sense where ‘conservatives’ draw the line on what the government can do.
Chrisd
He’s always had the power to halt discharges, if not change the law. The excuse for his inaction has always been the preferability of an imminent and permanent legislative solution. Now that Congress has failed to repeal and the new Congress is even less likely to repeal DADT, the rationale has changed a bit. You are supposed to appreciate the preferability of continued discharges while awaiting permanent repeal sometime in the future, over halting discharges immediately but under the shadow of a hypothetical reversal under the next hypothetical Republican president. And also that the second option necessarily precludes any legislative repeal. Get it?
Mike Kay (Democrat of the Century)
@Joe Beese: and yet you’re here.
retards who call obama authoritarian and weak in the same breath – priceless!
Joey Maloney
@Karlisle:
Lovely rant, but nobody gets a Dishonorable under DADT, unless there’s some other unusual circumstance.
Mike Kay (Democrat of the Century)
@Chrisd: DADT was suspended two months ago.
I’m sure you read about it, it was in all the papers, although probably not in any blogs.
Admiral_Komack
@Oscar Leroy:
Oh, I think the Mittster has some ‘plaining to do.
Did fellow Mormons cover up officer’s baby molestations?
By Parick Orr | Idaho Statesman
BOISE, Idaho — As many as 15 people who knew that a Boise police officer had confessed to molesting babies will face no criminal charges.
Ada County sheriff’s deputies investigated whether those people should be charged with failing to report the crimes. But deputies have determined that the leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints congregation that Stephen R. Young attended can’t be charged because of Idaho’s clergy privilege law.
And church officials say it’s because of that very clergy privilege that Young is in prison today.
“It was efforts of the church and its leaders that resulted in this matter coming to the attention of the authorities,” said Randy Austin, an attorney specializing in child abuse cases for the church in Salt Lake City. “From the moment Mr. Young confessed, church leaders took every precaution they legally could to protect victims and the public.
“And church leaders avoided violating the clergy privilege — a breach which could have tainted the evidence against Mr. Young and jeopardized his prosecution.”
The Idaho code that defines members of the clergy — including LDS lay bishops and stake presidents — allows people to confess crimes without fear of their confessions being reported to police. But LDS officials say church policy and practice is to urge such people to turn themselves in.
While Young did confess to church leaders and was eventually excommunicated, it wasn’t until after a fellow Boise police officer who attended Young’s church heard of the punishment and spoke to him that Young turned himself in on March 2 — two days after his abrupt retirement from the Police Department, according to Ada County sheriff’s arrest reports.
That was about two months after church officials say they first talked to Young about his crimes.
WHY THE DELAY?
Church officials say they understand how Boise residents might be concerned that Young continued working as a police officer during that two-month stretch, and that some church members knew what Young’s employers did not — that he had confessed to molesting children.
When Young first told his bishop about his crimes in January, church officials urged Young — and his wife — to tell police what had happened, Austin said. Making that recommendation was all clergy members could legally do until Young turned himself in, Austin said, so they did it often.
“From the outset (church leaders) strongly encouraged Mr. Young and his wife to go to the police as quickly as possible,” Austin said.
Austin also said that while Young didn’t turn himself in until after he talked to fellow Boise police officer Kyle Christensen, Young had promised church officials before he talked to Christensen that he would do so.
“Long before Kyle Christensen ever spoke to Mr. Young, there were efforts being made for Young or his wife to report to police,” Austin said.
Read more: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/12/12/105162/did-fellow-mormons-cover-up-officers.html#storylink=omni_popular#ixzz1819jGZBa
grendelkhan
Oh, such delicious memories! Remember when Obama was “a cautious man who is six months into a mess”, or how “Obama doesn’t like this aspect of how the US has operated”, or that we should “give him, say, a year or two before we start accusing him of the equivalent of war crimes” or any of the apologetic bullshit that flowed forth even after it had become painfully evident that while Obama is moderately less likely to invade any more oil-rich countries for Democracy, Whiskey and Sexy, he’s certainly not going to roll back any of the current crop of horrors.
It’s like a ratchet, really.
Remember my hilariously optimistic offer to perform a moderately degrading public act to demonstrate my confidence in my position? And how I thought that, well, maybe at least one of those things will actually happen, so I’d better bet on all of them happening? And how while no one seemed interested in a wager, I still got to hear a lot of excuses for the guy.
Hey, maybe we’ll even leave Iraq some day, if we change the Constitution to give him five more terms, and nobody in Congress uses the T-word in the next two decades.
Chrisd
@Mike Kay (Democrat of the Century): Yes, that judge’s suspension was one of Obama’s finest moments of fierce advocacy.
Admiral_Komack
@Mike Kay (Democrat of the Century):
Hey now!
You used the word “retard”!
According to Beltway wisdom, you’re talking about Sarah Palin and her brood…and it’s Obama’s fault.
BruceFromOhio
@ChrisS:
When I read every single thing you write as satire, you’re fvcking hilarious! Now I’m hunting WyldPirate comments to confirm the effect.
Mike Kay (Democrat of the Century)
@grendelkhan:
Tits
I’m sorry to tell ya, congress won’t refrain from saying “tits” for two minutes, much less two decades.
Hell, I bet even Barbara Boxer uses the word “tits”.
kommrade reproductive vigor
I love you John. (Don’t worry, it is a purely Platonic sort of thing.)
Mike Kay (Democrat of the Century)
@Chrisd: the executive branch wasn’t legally required to abide by it, not with a stay.
but you’re point was, that in light of the failure of the senate to repeal DADT, the administration should immediately move to stop discharges, even if the EO would later be lifted by president palin. sadly you didn’t know that discharges already stopped two months ago. this is typical of lefties.
An EO would be nice, but at this point, it would only be ceremonial, as the substantive act of stopping discharges has occurred.
BruceFromOhio
@aimai:
I got hooked on civil war history from a recommendation by Steve Gilliard (RIP, Gilly, and FTFY), “Battle Cry of Freedom,” by James McPherson. The parallels between the 1860’s before the shooting started in earnest and today are compelling and frightening.
Not quite politically minded, but very engaging nevertheless, is “They Made America,” by Harold Evans.
Chrisd
@Mike Kay (Democrat of the Century): My point was that the Obama could’ve halted discharges with an executive order two years ago which would have remained in place until legislative repeal or the awful future hypothetical Republican president rescinds it.
The judicial suspension you seem to credit Obama for is only pending administration appeal. Or is this all part of the 11th dimensional plan?
sparky
@SadOldVet:
yes.
Chrisd
Stick to the script. The EO could never be nice, because such a rash move on the president’s part would have prevented this Congress from repealing DADT. That the bullshit I’ve heard ever since Obama took office.
Chrisd
Also, why is the judge’s suspension a substantive act while a presidential EO would only be a temporary measure and a disincentive for Congress to repeal DADT?
WyldPirate
@timb:
You can leave me out of the DADT, bullshit and the “wanting a republican president BS”, timb..
The last time I voted for a Republican–other than for one state race–was 1984 when I voted for Reagan.
I thought that Clinton was a complete sell out when he pushed the DADT and the DOMA years ago. Both treat the GLBT community as being less than equal to the rest of the citizens in this country.
sparky
@grendelkhan: well, yeah. but you see here the power of words of actions. happened with the Rs, now it’s on the “other” side of the aisle. is there a moral here? maybe it’s that no one should ever misunderestimate the emotional bond forged through rhetoric.
since you were basically correct, with one good-sized exception, you win. as to Iran, maybe you should just coat a limb? or you could renew that one, as the reasons it hasn’t happened are not visible so you could perhaps call a timeout for that one.
Oscar Leroy
@Dr. Squid:
Any minute now, John Cole is going to tell this guy to tone it down. You know, because he wants serious discussions without rancor or draining negativity.
Oscar Leroy
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
Only if I cared about what people like you thought.
Another prediction down the drain. Don’t you get tired of being wrong?
Mike Kay (Democrat of the Century)
@Chrisd: that’s not what you said. See, you have so many voices in you head, you don’t even know what you said.
as to your last argument:
you’re clearly uniformed or simply inarticulate on this issue.
It’s not a “judicial suspension”. The 9th Circuit granted a stay on the lower court’s order (see here), which means the suspension was lifted. With the stay in place, the executive branch was under NO legal obligations to stop the discharges. But they did.
This will likely wind it’s way up to the supreme court in two years, in the meanwhile, discharges have been halted.
The supremes can repeal DADT or leave in place. If it’s the latter, then a EO is necessary.
But until then, I’ll repeat, an EO would be nice, but at this point, it would only be ceremonial, as the substantive act of stopping discharges has occurred. That’s what you called for.
You should be happy that the obama administration has voluntary stopped discharges.
you’re gonna have to find another reason to hate obama.
sparky
since the topic has already come up in this OT, i have a non-snarky question:
can someone please explain to me the importance people place on “ending” DADT? i mean, what exactly is the point of campaigning so that openly gay people are now “free” to kill brown people?
yes, i understand it’s a symbol, but a symbol of what, exactly? that a segment of the electorate thinks it is important to allow openly gay people to kill brown people seems a bit um odd. absent an explanation, i cannot account for it other than to surmise that, as with the Rs, the personal is the only item of interest. in other words, the D “base” is really pretty much like the R base: it’s fine to screw them so long as you toss a few scraps to them.
Jewish Steel
Open trollthread. Nice.
This is exactly the kind of creative solution I was expecting. But will it/did it work? I see a some of the usual suspects here. I’m going to walk the dogs and test the other threads when I get back. Fingers crossed.
Jay in Oregon
Here’s something to take the holiday edge off: new Simon’s Cat for the holidays!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=nn2h3_aH3vo#at=102
Oscar Leroy
@SadOldVet:
It’s hard to avoid that suspicion. John comes here and says “oh I’m tired of the flame wars, the degraded tone, the name-calling. Why don’t you Obama critics stop it?” But it isn’t the Obama critics who flame people or degrade the tone or call people names. It’s the hard-core supporters who constantly retort with “you disagree with me so you must be a stupid moron troll sexist pig firebagger who wants Mitt Romney to win the next presidential election.”
So, what are we supposed to think? When John Cole only gets mad at people who disgree with him. . . the most likely explanation is that he simply doesn’t want people to disagree with him.
Bruce (formerly Steve S.)
Two? Jesus, it was up to fifteen last night. What is this, Basic Arithmetic With Sarah Palin?
Mike Kay (Democrat of the Century)
@Chrisd: maybe this will help.
1. judge phillips suspended DADT.
2. subsequently, her judicial superiors, the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals, overturned her suspension.
3. the executive branch voluntary suspended discharges on it’s own accord.
Chrisd
@Mike Kay (Democrat of the Century): I used the term judge’s suspension because that is what it was. She did the heavy lifting. You credit Obama for subsequently ignoring the stay pending appeal. Whoop de fucking do. No, that’s not the same as an EO issued two years ago.
Now you’re all on board for the judiciary to get rid of the policy, as if that were the magical plan all along, but should that fail, THEN an EO will be necessary? And Obama will be just the guy to do it, huh?
Mike Kay (Democrat of the Century)
@Chrisd:
“Whoop de fucking do”
see you don’t care about suspensions being halted. you don’t care that obama has STOPPED the discharges.
Instead of saying, “cool, I’m glad discharges have ended”, you’re more interested in trying to find a way to hate obama. That’s you’re sad problem. You’re hate is consuming you to the point that it prevents you from conducting a rational discussion.
But facts are facts. Obama has stopped the discharges.
Keith G
@sparky: Because humans are, at large, tribal and martial critters and the desire to be a part of such pursuits is not limited to our straight brethren.
Oscar Leroy
@Mike Kay (Democrat of the Century):
Hahaha!
teadoust
i imagine obama’s the same dumb douchebag today that he’s always been. so technically, i’m not really disappointed.
Oscar Leroy
@sparky:
Equal rights are equal rights. My version of a just world isn’t one where we fight in Afghanistan, either. But if we’re going to be there, we should be as close to just as we can.
Chrisd
@Mike Kay (Democrat of the Century): I’m glad the judge suspended DADT.
That Obama finally, under pressure, agreed to halt duscharges pending his administration’s appeal is not the same as an EO. This is the last time I’m writing this. Either you get it or you don’t.
The Obot line on the EO has always been that it is temporary measure that would prevent a permanent legislative solution. I take it that Obama’s lifting discharges pending appeal is somehow better than that. Enlighten me.
Mnemosyne
@Chrisd:
That was a pretty impressive moving of the goalposts, I have to say. So now it doesn’t matter that only the Undersecretary of Defense can approve any discharges and there is still a bill to be voted on because it didn’t happen two years ago.
I’m assuming at this point that if somehow the Democrats do manage to squeak the repeal through Congress and Obama signs it into law, you’ll still be here bitching because it didn’t happen on your preferred schedule.
Mnemosyne
@Chrisd:
It’s better than that because the permanent legislative repeal is still in front of the Senate. It’s not dead because Congress would rather ignore it than get into the nasty debate.
Though I do love your confidence that no future Republican president would lift an EO suspending discharges. You should probably talk to some women in the third world about the games Republicans love to play with EOs before you decide it will be a moot point forever once the EO is issued.
Chrisd
Tell ya what. If they pull it off, I promise not to bitch about the protracted timetable if you don’t pretend Obama did anything to get it passed.
Mike Kay (Democrat of the Century)
@Chrisd:
okay. what’s the difference?
Mnemosyne
Argh. I tried to edit but it wouldn’t let me. Here’s the corrected version:
@Chrisd:
It’s better than that because the permanent legislative repeal is still in front of the Senate. It’s not dead, but it would be if an EO were issued because Congress would rather ignore it than get into the nasty debate.
Though I do love your confidence that no future Republican president would lift an EO suspending discharges. You should probably talk to some women in the third world about the games Republicans love to play with EOs before you decide it will be a moot point forever once the EO is issued.
(Fixed for clarity.)
Mnemosyne
@Chrisd:
Will you stop pretending that Obama has done anything to block it? Because I think that’s the conspiracy theory I’m most tired of: that Obama proposes legislation that he secretly opposes and deliberately undermines because argle blargle 11-D chess.
Chrisd
Yeah, I know, that’s the standard line about the EO removing any incentive for Congress to act. Unlike, say, a pending Supreme Court ruling.
Chrisd
Never said that.
Indeed, I have every reason to believe that should a repeal bill someday cross his desk, his brain will willingly fire enough neurons to scrawl his signature on the bottom.
Mike Kay (Democrat of the Century)
@Chrisd: I’m still waiting for you to tell me how an EO is different than obama’s current halt of discharges
Mnemosyne
@Chrisd:
Because Congress just loves having their laws found to be unconstitutional? Huh? I’m pretty sure that Congress does everything they can to prevent the laws that they pass from coming under judicial scrutiny.
Unless you’re arguing that the Republicans are deliberately delaying a legislative repeal in the hope that the Roberts court will save their bacon 6 years down the road but, again, I’m not really getting why you think that was Obama’s plan all along.
Mnemosyne
@Chrisd:
Ah, yes, the “dumb president” meme. Because the head of the Harvard Law Review is always the stupidest person they can find in the law school.
Chrisd
@Mike Kay (Democrat of the Century): You first:
Mike Kay (Democrat of the Century)
@Chrisd:
see, I gotcha. there is no difference. if you give them enough thread, they’ll hang themselves.
bow humbly before your intellectual superior.
Chrisd
@Mnemosyne: I didn’t mean to imply he was dumb. I meant that he’s committed to as little personal effort as possible on the subject.
On a number of subjects, actually.
lola
Did anyone notice that he signed the school nutrition bill today. Ketchup isn’t a vegetable anymore. I’m so proud of this administration for doing something so fundamentally good.
timb
@burnspbesq: that’s called sarcasm, counselor
timb
@Mike Kay (Democrat of the Century): Seriously, you people have a HUGE problem divining sarcasm. It’s almost like posting around wingnuts. I thought WE were supposed to have a sense of humor and be able to spot snark?
Keith G
@Chrisd:
Obama lifting discharges pending appeal or any other exec action can, by def, happen whenever the exec decides. There is a process underway right now, as halting as it is, and will be underway until this Congress adjourns.
I do believe that an EO issued right now would change the dynamic of the process in the Senate and even temp GOPers like Brown and Murkowski to weave back into the definite “No” camp.
And as I said earlier, this is about more than just being allowed to stay on the job:
If legislation can be passed by the 31st, an entire portfolio of services and benefits will need to be available to the families of Gay soldiers.
timb
@BruceFromOhio: I see that, Bruce, but I think Chait has a point today (about Bush v Gore) that bears noticing: the lack of real unrest followed by that tragedy. That didn’t happen in the 1840’s, let alone the 1850’s. McPherson, however, is a god.
I think the historical parallel today most reminds me of is c. 100 BCE Roman Republic, where abitious and unscrupulous people warped the Roman political system so greatly that it failed. The amount of money the richest people had, their desire to use that for private armies and mobs. All we are missing right now is a Sulla or a Marius
Chrisd
@Mike Kay (Democrat of the Century): An EO issued years ago would have demonstrated Obama’s real (as opposed to rhetorical) commitment to actually ending the policy. It would have given the armed forces experience before repeal to military life without gay discharges. It would have buttressed the inevitable armed forces study with empirical data of life without DADT. It would have removed the fear of the unknown for chickenshit senators and any wavering voters before the vote. It would have been a significant step toward ultimate repeal while the Democrats still held a majority.
Obama’s lifting discharges only after a judge’s ruling, under pressure, and pending his administration’s appeal does none of these things.
To those who argue that an early EO would have failed to result in permanent repeal, well, we’ll never know now, will we?
timb
@WyldPirate: so ask yourself why are you working so hard to elect a Republican in 2012?
jeff
@Balconesfault:
All the tax cuts benefit the wealthy, not just the cuts directed at the top 2%.
Admiral_Komack
@Oscar Leroy:
I didn’t know he was sick (rimshot).
johnny walker
Just keep pretending you hate the flamewars there Mr. Stoker In Chief. Man it’s just so frustrating! My own blog is getting so contentious that I’m gonna have to install a pie filter! If only there was some connection between the multiple flamewar troll threads I start daily and the resultant comments!
Which contrasts with novel and unique content about butt-hurt manic progressives who’re motivated only by hatred and a desire to destroy Obama.
Since you’re so prone to describing shit you find distasteful or problematic in terms of mental illnesses and disorders, what’s your diagnosis on the rapid turnarounds you experience on subjects like Manchin or the tax compromise?
Because I have a suggestion: using mental illnesses, etc. as a political slam is offensive and inappropriate no matter who’s doing it, where it’s directed and what the justifications are.
johnny walker
@agrippa:
Looks like someone needs an American Government refresher. If you disagree, help me out. When it’s said in political science circles that the President sets the legislative agenda, it means what?
johnny walker
@timb:
Needs more intellectual dishonesty. You barely even seem to be trying.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Oscar Leroy: “Don’t you get tired of being wrong? “
No, but I am lucky to have you as an inspiration to keep plugging away at it.
@timb:
Because he thought Reagan was a great guy and voted for him in ’84?
Anyone who voted for Reagan clearly has brain damage.
Keith G
@johnny walker:
Hey there Sparky.
I got a degree in political science and taught American government for 20 some years. So let me help you out.
I cannot recall one authoritative source saying that the President sets the legislative agenda. “Set” being the limiting parameter.
If you go to an authoritative source like this:
http://www.psci.unt.edu/EshbaughSoha/PRQ2007.pdf
You are likely to read:
Read this paper. It will do you good.