For every single one of you shithouse lawyers who questioned the treatment of Bradley Manning because “you don’t like Glenn Greenwald” or his “posts are too long,” suck on this:
PFC Manning is currently being held in maximum custody. Since arriving at the Quantico Confinement Facility in July of 2010, he has been held under Prevention of Injury (POI) watch.
His cell is approximately six feet wide and twelve feet in length.
The cell has a bed, a drinking fountain, and a toilet.
The guards at the confinement facility are professional. At no time have they tried to bully, harass, or embarrass PFC Manning. Given the nature of their job, however, they do not engage in conversation with PFC Manning.
At 5:00 a.m. he is woken up (on weekends, he is allowed to sleep until 7:00 a.m.). Under the rules for the confinement facility, he is not allowed to sleep at anytime between 5:00 a.m. and 8:00 p.m. If he attempts to sleep during those hours, he will be made to sit up or stand by the guards.
He is allowed to watch television during the day. The television stations are limited to the basic local stations. His access to the television ranges from 1 to 3 hours on weekdays and 3 to 6 hours on weekends.
He cannot see other inmates from his cell. He can occasionally hear other inmates talk. Due to being a pretrial confinement facility, inmates rarely stay at the facility for any length of time. Currently, there are no other inmates near his cell.
He’s being treated unlike any other accused in the country and kept in his cell for 23 hours a day. It’s absurd and outrageous. And he is being treated this way for one reason, and one reason only- to break him, so the government can then proceed with an outrageous suit against a journalist- Julian Assange. He isn’t a security risk. He isn’t a physical threat. He’s made no attempt to hurt himself or anyone else. He is being tortured with mentally debilitating confinement simply to break him. It’s obscene, and Obama should be embarrassed. Just what the hell was he teaching in his con law classes?
And yet I’m sure there will be some internet tough guys excusing this behavior. Shame on you.
And to end the “but I don’t trust his lawyer” bullshit (despite the fact that he is a Major in the Army and a veteran of the Iraq War) that will inevitably come from some of you clowns, there are tons of links out there verifying how he is being treated and why.
JGabriel
John Cole:
Fixed. Embarrassment is far too mild a response.
.
ChrisS
Well, I’m certainly going to be very careful about what I say or do in regards to what the federal government does.
Mike Kay (Team America)
Oh, BS.
Give it up.
This is the same way they treated Aldrich Ames, John Walker, and Jonathan Pollard.
The Dangerman
I don’t think this is accurate; see, just for one example, the case of the Portland Tree Lighting bomber.
MikeMc
How should he be treated?
ruemara
I have to be frank. I don’t know if details of treatment is part of whatever briefing the President has gotten with regard to this man. But this is a crime in action and it is his responsibility to know and stop this inhumane treatment. Period. Now, what are we going to do about it.
Cacti
My God!
Why doesn’t he have a feather bed and tea service?
serge
So much for his right to a quick and speedy trial. It’s justice denied on every level. I’m afraid they will break his mind, or throw him a too-late bone if he rolls over on Assange.
He’s bait.
Knocienz
Actually, I’d say he is being treated in a fashion similar to most non- wealthy accused are in this country: guilty until proven innocent.
Mike Kay (Team America)
Can’t we hold a fundraiser so we can send him some call-girls and blow?
General Stuck
Did you actually read the entire report you excerpted? Virtually nothing GG claimed was true, except maybe the pillow and sheets thing, but he can have blankets. He is in standard solitary confinement, with one to three hours teevee time.
edit – he is accused of basically betraying his country. and likely wouldn’t last a week in general population in a military prison
Cacti
@General Stuck:
Torture!
Unspeakable torture!
He’s the Nelson Mandela of this generation.
Hypnos
Here in the UK the Independent front paged this story today:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/assange-begins-mansion-arrest-but-his-source-feels-the-heat-2163607.html
I am confident the European Court of Human Rights will find solitary confinement as practiced in the American prison system equivalent to torture and thus in violation of the European Convention of Human Rights.
No more extraditions from Europe.
NoFortunateSon
Julian Assagne may be a journalist. But this poor young kid broke a very serious law and put innocent lives in jeopardy to get Assagne the story he needed. Justice is blind, and the morality of WikiLeaks is a complete non-sequitor here.
Maude
@General Stuck:
I don’t trust the souces of GG. Sounds a bit like Judith Miller.
Napoleon
So why should I vote for Obama in 2012? The guy runs a thug government that is every bit as bad as Nixon.
Cacti
@Hypnos:
Would that be the UK where running while brown in a subway tunnel is a capital offense?
tomvox1
John, this is absolutely shameful and big giant kudos to Greenwald for helping to expose it. This is when GG is at his best: when his anti-government bombs are thrown accurately at the creepy expansion of the national security police state and its pervasive erosion of civil liberties.
If his work on the Manning matter can get the attention of Obama and get him to do the right thing, then it is definitely worth enduring another month’s ration of the usual “Obama Is Absolutely No Better Than Bush–Maybe Even WORSE!” rantings.
The Dangerman
@MikeMc:
Exactly like he’s being treated.
Someone asked about my past clearance in an earlier thread (it was called an EBI, roughly a Top Secret, it took about 9 months and about $60K to clear me for a particular program; sad thing is, my participation in that program could be measured in days before it was canceled, but I kept the clearance and could still go “behind the door” for special manufacturing techniques). If I had released ONE confidential memo (a Confidential clearance is the lowest level), I would have lost my job and probably would have gone to jail. Releasing 250,000 documents boggles the mind…
Shorter Firebaggers
@Cacti: ‘
No of course not! Europe is a land where golden unicorns shit rainbows made of diamonds!
Ruckus
@Knocienz:
This
Although most of the ‘less fortunate’ in jail awaiting charges are probably not held in solitary confinement. For months at a time.
Bnut
The prison system is indeed disgusting, but as it pertains to Manning, I fail to see exactly how he is supposed to be treated that would make you happy.
Hypnos
@Cacti: what kind of argument is that? What are you, six?
c u n d gulag
We are a sick, cruel, and morally bankrupt nation. The Bush/Cheney Cabal unleashed some nasty genii, and now we can’t get it back in the bottle. And now, even purported Liberals are screaming for punishment and blood.
For those of you who are stupid, and think that this treatment is fine, this man has not been through a trial yet. He’s only been accused. Not found guilty! And there are humane ways to treat not just the accused, but the guilty, too.
Solitary confinement should be used for punishment. And if used, used sparingly. We seem to have forgotten that, in our rush to inflict cruelty on others.
But, go on and enjoy wallowing in the misery of others.
At least he ain’t you, right?
And you will never end up in the hands of our growing police state, right?
So, you have nothing to worry about, right?
Wrong. The right answer is that everyone should have rights. And he’s no different than anyone else. If you ignore them for him, don’t expect anyone to worry about your sorry ass if it finds itself behind bars. Oh, but you have nothing to worry about. I forgot. Sorry…
General Stuck
@Cacti:
Or all the Maze Prison delights.
lol
Greenwald also claimed Manning was being drugged. Looks like he couldn’t help embellishing the story to generate outrage.
Sounds like standard solitary confinement – not surprising given the charges and that he’s in the military’s justice system, not a civilian one.
I’m sure if he was out in gen pop and he got killed, Greenwald would be screeching that Obama intentionally sent the guy to his death instead of putting him under “prevention of harm” watch.
Cacti
@The Dangerman:
It’s what I call civil disobedience for the special snowflake generation. If your motives are noble, you should face no consequences for your patently illegal acts.
When MLK was participating in acts of civil disobedience, he expected to go to jail for them.
John Cole
@NoFortunateSon: BZZZT. I suppose you know more than SecDef Gates and Mike Mullen, who both are on record saying not one person has been endangered.
General Stuck
@Bnut:
That would be like a progressive/libertarian hero
lamh32
OT, But Dems picked up 2 more votes for the repeal!
I hear it was Burr and Ensign, has anyone else heard the same?
Three-nineteen
@Bnut: I would like him to be treated like any other prisoner, unless there is an actual reason for him to be in solitary.
DADT repeal just passed.
John Cole
@General Stuck: You are seriously sick in the head when it comes to Glenn. Rather than just asserting stuff, show me where Glenn said something that was not true. Cut and paste what Glenn said that was a lie, and then cut and paste the source that proves it is a lie.
I’ll be here all day.
stuckinred
Wisconsin-Whitewater v Mt Union for the DIII National Championship, ESPN U! Go Warhawks!!
JGabriel
DADT Repeal has passed 65-31. Now it goes to President Obama for his signature.
New thread?
.
Cacti
@Hypnos:
I was just wondering when the European Court of Human Rights will be weighing in on Jean Charles de Menezes executioners.
The Dangerman
@Cacti:
Anarchist?
kdaug
Strikes me we’ve been honing these particular techniques for the last decade or so. Off-shore comes home. What’s cheaper – housing the perp for the rest of their lives, or driving them insane?
Bnut
@Three-nineteen: He isn’t any other prisoner. And as someone said earlier, put this guy in gen pop at a military prison and his ass is grass.
David Fud
@NoFortunateSon: Not only has no one been killed, this “poor kid” has yet to be charged with a crime.
Good thing I don’t live where you are in charge. Most people would be locked up for crimes ranging from witchcraft to gum-chewing with no need for trial.
Yutsano
@JGabriel: I was kinda hoping he was waiting in the Capitol hallway with pen in hand. That would have been kinda cool.
OT: just saw my job is paid for until Tuesday. Wonder if I’ll have work to come back to after the Christmas holiday.
Andy K
@Ruckus:
And most of the time the “less fortunate” are facing civilian charges in civilian courts. The UCMJ has always been given more leeway by the SCOTUS. Shit, for centuries it’s been common practice globally to execute soldiers and sailors for desertion- simply quitting their jobs.
lamh32
From CNN:
Gates said that once President Obama signs repeal into law, then the Pentagaon will take the steps needed to ensure the the law is implanted ASAP.
Tweet from Gibbs: President will sign the repeal this week.
Nethead Jay
@lamh32: Those are the 2.
FlipYrWhig
John, isn’t this the issue?
I remember saying at the end of the last thread that it was important to distinguish two claims:
1. Manning is being held in solitary confinement with many harsh restrictions, which is inherently a human rights abuse.
2. Manning is being held in particularly, perhaps uniquely, brutal conditions in order to make an example of him.
I think Greenwald blurs these by lingering over the conditions that are in fact _typical_ in order to claim implicitly that Manning’s treatment is _atypical_.
You can hate that such conditions are typical or that they have been made routine for some number of suspects, but that’s IMHO a different issue than saying that Manning is being targeted for special mistreatment. I think the criticism should be something more like “Manning is being treated in a manner that would be typical for people suspected of Serious Crime X, but he didn’t do anything like that.” Leave the criticism that sounds more like “Treating anyone in this manner, even people suspected of Serious Crime X, is appalling” for a different moment.
Bnut
@General Stuck: I can’t possibly be the only one who applauds his actions, but think he needs to take his punishment.
General Stuck
@John Cole:
The awful brute guards.
And If i am sick in the head over GG, then I am not alone, and though I’ve never put in those hyperbolic terms, when it comes to Glen Greenwald, I think it is you who is sick in the head, along with a number of others. And the above quotes from your links belies GG claims of being treated poorly on a personal level by his guards.
stuckinred
@Bnut: nope, you are not
General Stuck
@Bnut:
I don’t applaud his actions, but would like to see him in general population with other prisoners. But to do so would put him in some danger, I suspect.
Ruckus
In the military I had a top secret clearance. I never asked for it, I was told one day that I had one. I never filled out a form, answered any questions, talked to anyone about it before hand. No one told me the law concerning holding that clearance, I recall that when I was given the clearance I was told to it was need to know and was for access to top secret weapon spaces. I wonder how much different many military personal were treated concerning their level of clearance?
Omnes Omnibus
Quite a few people expressed concerns that Greenwald’s story was primarily anonymously sourced and that Greenwald has a tendency to extrapolate rather wildly from just a few points of data. They also noted that, if Manning were being subjected to inhumane treatment, his attorneys would be very likely to make that fact known. After expressing those concerns, most people then said that, if true, it was shameful. Why do you have a problem with that? A couple of commenters went off the deep end and suggested that Manning deserves everything he is getting, yet you don’t seem to be castigating them. You might need to take a step the fuck back for a moment. Questioning a thinly sourced piece by a polemicist is a far cry from justifying the mistreatment of a prisoner and you should know that.
Three-nineteen
@Bnut: And proof of this is where? I’m not being snarky, I really want to know. Has the military stated they are doing this for Manning’s benefit? Does Manning’s lawyer agree with his treatment?
Yutsano
@Bnut: My opinion is he’s a kid who made a big stupid mistake that he was probably colluded into by Wikileaks and thought he was doing the right thing. The fact that he’ll be paying for this for the rest of his life anyway just adds to the sting, even if he does manage to make it out of prison.
And Assagne threw him under the bus also. Great guy you worked with there Bradley.
Keith G
So I wonder, if he were to decide that he was to “nap anyway” what would be his punishment? No Oprah?
Realistically since he is a high value detainee this is what I would expect. Since he is not guilty, yet, I would hope that he has access to other forms of mental and emotional diversion for the other 13 hours a day he is made to stay awake.
I hate the way that arrest and pretrial confinement is held as being the same status as punishment after conviction. In a just society, that is morally wrong
joes527
@Bnut:
There is a difference between custody and punishment. While custody may be an element of punishment, there is no need for punishment to be an element of custody.
Manning has been accused of doing bad things. He has not had his day in court. He has not been convicted of anything.
It is entirely appropriate for him to be held in custody, but there is no justification whatsoever for the custody to be punitive. The “if you try to sleep through your days filled with nothing, we will make you stand” thing is a clear sign that we have skipped right through punishment into torture.
Yeah yea … belittle it all you want. Messing with a person’s ability to sleep over an extended period of time IS torture.
Amanda in the South Bay
@Bnut:
Yeah, but solitary confinement in this case isn’t just separation from the rest of the jail, but a punishment in and of itself.
stuckinred
@Amanda in the South Bay: And is he was in the general population in the stockade and ended up shivved?
NoFortunateSon
@John Cole:
Again, it is completely irrelevant to the argument whether anyone was harmed.
Are you next going to try to argue that espionage is not a serious crime?
Are you going to try and argue that other espionage subjects have been treated differently while awaiting trial?
Bnut
@Three-nineteen: Never having spent time in the brig, I can only attest to the views of people I knew who did go. Like any other prison, there is a social hierarchy, and being accused of treason/spying would put him just above child molester. You don’t think stabbing the evil traitor would get some idiot brownie points?
@Yutsano: Well said.
Cacti
@joes527:
Not being able to sleep between 5:00 a.m. and 8:00 p.m. is torture?
Sounds like standard jailhouse hours to me.
cathyx
All of you who are supporting the ill-treatment of Manning, or any other human being are sick and disgusting people. No one should be treated this way, no matter what they did. If crimes were committed, they should get a trial and proper legal punishment if found guilty. But this inhumane treatment is beyond decency.
soonergrunt
He gets 1-3 hours of TV a night and 6 hours on the weekends? He gets whatever books he can get his hands on? He gets more sleep than people not accused of the biggest security breach in decades and gets to sleep in on weekends? So he lives Beyer than ANYBODY deployed forward and most people at home station and he’s still getting paid?
Cry me a fucking river.
The Dangerman
@Ruckus:
Just to be clear, my clearance wasn’t military; I worked in the private sector. Given the times and the project (it wasn’t anything dramatic like Star Wars, though I did meet General Abrahmson briefly one day), getting cleared was serious business. I got the full treatment; financial check, lie detector test, drug and alcohol (of course), personal check back to my High School activities (including Boy Scouts IIRC), my friends were asked if I liked men or women, etc.
General Stuck
@John Cole:
Here ya go boss
untrue
Technically true, but misleading cause Manning gets blankets to stay warm
untrue, and misleading, a GG tact of suggestive effect. he gets to exercise that one hour.
He is not totally isolated, and here GG misleads by leaving out facts that would that would belie his overall theme of mental torture via a level of isolation that would constitute that.
And jeebus Cole, here I don’t hear from you in months, and suddenly you write, accusing me of being sick in the head. Think of me fee fees. Fake generals on the internet haz them, also too. And a Merry Christmas Boss.
John Cole
He’s not been charged with espionage, tards. Do any of you even know what you are talking about, or are you just dropping in here to look tough.
And no, this is not the norm for prison treatment. Our prison system sucks, but this is very atypical. Jesus christ, Greenwald just wrote a book on the prison system. I trust him more than you clowns.
Yutsano
@Bnut: As far as him being held in solitary, the conditions are not unusual for a high profile or high risk prisoner like Manning. The lack of sleep part bothers me, but I’m not familiar with how those rules apply to the UCMJ as opposed to civilian courts. His lawyer should be pursuing that as a grievance within the system. Beyond that, accused can also be held in solitary, it happens quite often, especially if threats have been made against their lives like has happened with Manning.
Cacti
@John Cole:
On what knowledge or information do you base this statement?
MattR
@General Stuck:
And you have a quote from GG that proves that, like John Cole asked for?
@Cacti: I honestly have no idea what normal jailhouse routines are, but I always assumed that inmates were allowed to sleep in their cells during the day if they wanted/could manage with all the noise. (EDIT: If my sleep was ever limited to the hours of 8pm to 5 am I would go insane within a month unless I was given massive amounts of depressants to knock me out each night and stimulants to wake me back up. I am currently prescribed both amb1en and amphetamines and I still have issues with my sleep schedule/body clock)
@stuckinred: I agree that he needs to be separated from the general population for his own safety (though perhaps that should be Manning’s call). But that does not give them carte blanche with respect to how they impose his solitary confinement
Keith G
@Yutsano: I totally agree with your first paragraph.
I am curious about the second, though. How was he thrown “under the bus”?
joes527
@Cacti: Being held in a cell with nothing to do and being refused the refuge of sleep is torture, yes.
If he has to be somewhere or do do something … time to eat … appear before the judge … talk to the warden … use the exercise yard, sure, put him on the jailhouse schedule.
Making him stay in a six by twelve cell with a bed, a drinking fountain, and a toilet, but if he tries to sleep he will be prevented is just sick shit.
Omnes Omnibus
@MattR:
With the exception of it being Manning’s call as to whether he is in general population, I think you have it about right.
MattR
@MattR: And I managed to throw myself in moderation with an edit. Is the correct response “brilliant” or “FYWP”?
cleek
is there a right to watch news programs ?
PS
People, people, calm down. It seems that some folks here are suggesting that a person accused of an act that theoretically could have caused damage to the U.S. should be tortured before trial, apparently as punishment. This is absurd. Calm down everyone, please.
Yutsano
@Keith G: Assange denied even knowing who Manning is. Claimed to a British newspaper he had never heard of Bradley. When six months ago he was pledging to assist in his defense fund. That money also didn’t show up. I’d say Manning has Greyhound tire marks all over his back.
stuckinred
@John Cole: From the Bradley Manning Support site.
Andy K
@Cacti:
Sounds like standard military hours to me.
Damn that draft.
General Stuck
@MattR:
No it’s not from a direct GG quote, it is from omitted facts that GG paints an image of guards being impersonal . If you read my statement on GG in the previous thread, he doesn’t too often outright lie, but cleverly develops a narrative for effect of an impression he is trying to project. In this case, standard, while somewhat harsh, as far as being able to freely mingle with the general pop of a prison, and out of his cell more during the day, with something toward Pappillon level of isolation.
Anya
I think Greenwald is petty and obnoxious but that’s beside the point. The treatment of Bradley Manning is an embarrassment and Obama and the military should be ashamed of themselves. Unfortunately, we are at a stage in our country that no one will question this.
Cacti
@joes527:
Rules for the confinement facility. That means nobody gets to sleep between 5:00 a.m. and 8:00 p.m. on a weekday.
And if you calculate the down time hours, it’s more than 8 per night, +2 hours sleep in time on Saturdays and Sundays.
Sorry, not torture. Normal schedule for incarcerated persons.
Sgwhiteinfla
Maybe Im late on this but at the bottom doesnt it say Manning is allowed personal visits on weekends ane holidays of 3 hours? And not that its a whole lot doesnt that in and of itself contradict the “solitary confinement” term?
The Dangerman
@PS:
There is that word again; I do not think it means what you think it means…
/Inigo Montoya
Ruckus
@Andy K:
And how many times did those military personal not stand trial before being shot? Was it OK for them to be shot without trial?
Is it OK to have a military which treats it’s personal as indentured servants instead of citizens?
Why are our standards of treatment of not just accused but also convicted considered torture in many civilized parts of the world? And why should military prisoners be treated differently (worse) than civilians?
I used to think that this country stood for freedom, for being better than other nations, that we treated our people with consideration when we thought they had done something wrong. I thought we were the good guys.
Boy was I wrong.
Three-nineteen
@Yutsano: @Bnut: Then the problem (as I’m sure many of you know) is with the prison system. Prisoners who are separated from genpop because of safety concerns are treated the same as prisoners being punished and prisoners who are at risk from self-harm. This means that Manning is being punished through no fault of his own. And if the government wants to break him to flip on/lie about Assange, they can use plausible deniability – “we were trying to protect him” — to get him do what they want.
stuckinred
@Ruckus: Is it OK to have a military which treats it’s personal as indentured servants instead of citizens?
Are you serious?
MattR
@General Stuck: So basically you read GG’s description of Manning’s conditions and decided that GG was trying to imply that the guards were unprofessional and/or treating Manning poorly on a personal level. But somehow it is GG’s fault that you reached for that conclusion and it turned out to be wrong?
There may have been times that GG has played with the truth to create a false impression, but in this case it seems a whole lot more like you are reading your previous impression of GG into the current article than making a reasonable attempt to look at what was actually written. It is your right to judge GG based on his past works. But it does not mean that you get to use your impression as evidence that GG was lying.
stuckinred
@Three-nineteen: He’s in the fucking brig not a prison.
General Stuck
@John Cole:
It is the norm for this kind of case, but our prison system does suck. If you want to have threads on that topic, then go for it, I will likely agree. But holding up the Manning case as a segway into that debate, seems only to bolster yours and others argument that Manning should be treated more like a hero, than a criminal. I won’t fall for that. Because he is allegedly, a criminal, at this stage. For a serious crime.
Ruckus
@stuckinred:
Yes.
Cacti
Some of the comments in this thread make me think that people’s general idea of life behind bars has been informed by Shawshank Redemption.
Sorry guys, but inmates, pre and post conviction, don’t spend most of their time drinking beers on the roof, carving chess sets, or playing harmonica in the yard.
Bnut
@stuckinred:
The only kind of brig for me!
General Stuck
@MattR:
You are picking one element of my argument to make this charge, concerning guard treatments. I will gladly leave that off the evidence list, and let the other examples of lying and misleading stand. It is all part of creating an impression that is contrary to reality. Not unlike a defense attorney throwing everything against the wall, hoping to make an impression of reasonable doubt. And when you are accusing people of torture, then that is bullshit, and I will call it bullshit. You can call it what you want.
edit – Mr. Manning is not being tortured. period
stuckinred
@Bnut: A dogface in their brig, ouch. I recently read “Helmet for my Pillow” and Leckie’s description of the brig was hair-raising.
Three-nineteen
@stuckinred: And the rules are different in the brig how?
Nick L
Manning’s treatment is abhorrent, but not at all unusual:
Terrorism suspect imprisoned without conviction in Virginia
Children routinely held in pre-trial solitary confinement in Texas
I’m not here to shit on people who are justifiably upset about Manning. But this is a much deeper problem with our society and justice system than simply a few authoritarian dudes in the military and a White House which looks the other way.
PS
@General Stuck: So you accuse Greenwald of doing exactly what you do only in his case it’s awful because shut up?
stuckinred
@Three-nineteen: People a raving about the “prison system”. The brig is not in the “prison system”.
Keith G
@Yutsano: Oh. I see what you are saying. My take was that they were never on the same bus either by temperament or motive (but that’s just me being needlessly technical).
PS
@The Dangerman: Nonsense. I know what torture means. (It’s Giants baseball.) I was characterizing comments by other people; if you wish to associate yourself with those whom I am criticizing, feel free.
MattR
@General Stuck:
Thank you. In fairness to me, it was the only evidence you had provided in response to John’s request when I first commented on this thread (though you posted another comment as I was typing mine)
soonergrunt
Manning doesn’t get to sleep during extended duty hours and his supervising NCOs ensure that a Soldier with a history of breaking the rules (2 article 15s) obeys the rules. Just like every other member of the army. He’s still subject to UCMJ. Whether any of you fainting-couch occupants understand this or not, OUR LIVES ARE NOT LIKE YOURS.
The lawyer is an O-5 Reservist who teaches court-martial tactics and procedures. I think he doesn’t need Greenwald’s shading or stretching the truth so much as he needs the $50k that Assange promised before he started claiming to have never heard of Bradley Manning.
Omnes Omnibus
@Nick L: No arguments here. I think there are two issues here: 1) Is Manning being treated worse than any other prisoner who is separated from the general population, and, if so, why? 2) Are prisoners who are separated from the general population treated in a way that decent people would consider inhumane? It does not benefit the discussion to conflate these issues.
FlipYrWhig
@John Cole:
Again, it sounds like he’s lumping together his philippic against the prison system in general, probably including solitary confinement and the rest, with this particular case. Because the details, as far as I can tell as a person with zero expertise on this, don’t seem to be specific to Manning. If Manning is being treated the way other people are being treated, it reinforces the case that military prison or the prison-industrial complex or what have you is harsh and cruel, but it actually _doesn’t_ reinforce the case that Manning is being singled out to break him and retaliate against Assange and the rest.
My question is, if you could write the same story about some other guy being held in the same facility, would that help or hurt Greenwald’s case?
B-town
@General Stuck:
You know if you are going to accuse some one of lying you should probably be a little less amateurish at the art of prevaricating:
Your quote:
Full Greenwald quote:
From the post John linked to:
In the future, if you are going to be mendacious at least don’t do so as blatantly.
I do give you props for the rest of your beef, arguing that someone using factual statements in a “misleading” way is definitely more professional.
stuckinred
@soonergrunt: And his supervising NCO is proly some Gunny!
General Stuck
@PS:
i didn’t write an article with a number of untruths to paint a picture of a prisoner being tortured. And leaving out that Manning’s guards check on him AND ASK IF HE IS OK, rather than not.
You Greenwald groupies are something to behold. But I can see why.
The Dangerman
@PS:
Have you seen next years starting rotation for the Dodgers? Gonna be a long season for them.
FlipYrWhig
@Omnes Omnibus: Right, those are the questions I’ve been trying to raise as well.
Cacti
My favorite comment:
As opposed to the other cells with the queen size beds, internet access, and kitchenettes.
stuckinred
@The Dangerman: Don’t even start that shit with a Cub fan!
Buck
@lamh32: Cool!
Happy Christmas and a Merry New Year!
MattR
@Cacti: Are you saying the article would have been better if they had omitted that fact and let each reader use his imagination to determine what Manning’s cell looked like?
PS
@General Stuck: Hey, I am not a GG groupie. Nor am I a GG attacker. I am me. Deal with it. In this case, I think both of you gave somewhat misleading impressions to bolster your opinions. But Greenwald was much more forthright about what he was saying and meaning, and I do give him props for that.
Omnes Omnibus
@FlipYrWhig: It’s going nowhere though. Cole’s tone in the OP pretty much ensured that.
PS
@efgoldman: Thank you. Nicely put.
Buck
I know there hasn’t been a trial yet. But I’m wondering – is Manning’s guilt in question? Is it commonly accepted that he did do what he’s being held for?
The Dangerman
@stuckinred:
You are right; I stand corrected.
OK, at the risk of opening old wounds, I was in a sports bar watching the “you know which” game, rooting so damned hard for the Cubs; then, it happened, and I thought “that poor bastard”. I think there is a 30 for 30 movie coming up about him on ESPN.
Cacti
@MattR:
No, it would have been better if it wasn’t trying to make the lack of amenities in Manning’s jail cell seem different than any other jail cell.
General Stuck
@B-town:
Oh come on. “even inside his cell” is an oblique statement that he also doesn’t get to exercise “outside his cell” . And goes directly to my point of misleading, why didn’t GG and his sources describe what he did during that one hour out of his cell.?They didn’t because it would mess up the narrative of extra harsh treatment. And do you think GG sources were spot on, that they didn’t mention he can get and read books, and watch teevee 1 to 3 hours a day. I don’t know for a fact if GG’s sources were feeding him incomplete info, or that GG chose not to mention these things purposely for meme effect. But if I was betting, I would bet the latter.
Gawd , if this kind of mental gymnastics to defend were only directed toward Obama. Imagine that.
General Stuck
@PS:
LOL
stuckinred
The statement, entitled “Safety and Security = Job #1 at the Brig,” and written in response to charges that Manning is being mistreated, asserts that Manning is allowed to converse with other prisoners “as long as the conversation does not interfere with good order and discipline.”
In response to questions about how much time Manning gets outside his cell everyday, marines at Quantico’s prison say he is “allotted one hour of recreation time per day, as is every other maximum custody detainee.”
Depending on the weather, this recreation time may be indoors or outdoors. “Activities may include calisthenics, running, basketball, etc.,” according to the statement.
It also addresses the charge that Manning is being held in cruel conditions – specifically, that he is not allowed to exercise in his room. “No detainees are allowed to exercise in their cell. As a matter of safety, all exercise must be supervised.”
As to whether Manning gets sheets and blankets, the marines at Quantico allowed only that Manning “is issued adequate bedding.”
The statement emphasizes that a “maximum custody detainee” receives some of the same privileges as the general population, including sending and receiving mail and visitations. Manning also gets one hour of television, a “hygiene call, reading and outside physical activity without restraint.”
Maximum security prisoners are under constant supervision due to a “high probability of escape.” This includes “those likely to be dangerous or violent, and those whose escape would cause concern of a threat to life, property, or national security.”
Andy K
@Ruckus:
Well, seeing as I was citing precedent over a long period of time all over the world, I’d say quite often. There’s been an awful lot of leeway over the years given to officers to pass summary judgment on personnel fleeing the battlefield in the face of the enemy.
“Uh, Captain, I’m taking a personal day. I’ll join the battle tomorrow, okay?”
But, honestly, I think this is one better answered by someone like Cole, who, like Manning, volunteered to waive some of his civilian rights.
First, I’m not seeing how Manning’s pre-trial treatment is any different than that of any civilian charged with espionage, other than he’s being held to the military standard of remaining awake for a whopping 15 hours a day (shit, when I was 23, not only was I awake for approximately 37 hours straight a day, I was drunk most of the time). And if you think that the rest of the “civilized” world doesn’t treat those charged with espionage similarly, I don’t think you’re using your head. Espionage, almost uniformly, has a conspiratorial (ironically, in this case) element attached, and rooting out co-conspirators is given priority over the comfort of the detainee.
Second, as to the difference in treatment: Discipline. An old friend of mine was a fuck-up, and he joined the navy. He got busted for something trifling- lipping off to an officer, or stealing some strawberries, I don’t recall exactly- but the Navy weighed out the options, and figure it had spent enough time, energy and money on someone who was salvageable, so they had him pound rust off of ships’ hulls for a month rather than being let go, as would have been the case in the civilian world. Dude went back to regular duty at the end of his sentence, didn’t fuck-up any more, and got a general discharge and the end of his enlistment period.
Dollared
@efgoldman: This.
And for all of you attacking GG for his anonymous sourcing, you need to work on your reading comprehension.
Greenwald accepts anonymous sourcing when all identifiable sources are afraid to, or won’t speak.
When the Vice President of the United States, Dick Cheney, speaks bald-faced lies on background to Judy Miller, why is it anonymous? He doesn’t have to worry about losing his job or going to jail for speaking his mind. It’s only to spread politically advantageous lies without accountability.
GG’s source in this case would be punished if identified. That’s when GG, and all traditional (“quaint”) journalistic ethics accept anonynimity.
MattR
@Cacti:
I would agree if there was any evidence of this whatsoever. The article was providing a complete description of what a typical day for PFC Manning is. That is all. Anything else is what you have chosen to read into it.
(EDIT: More than anything, this is proof that you can’t satisfy everyone. Had those details been left out and commenters were making educated guesses about what his cell was like, at least one person would have complained that they should have been provided in the article)
Nick L
@Omnes Omnibus:
1) Not really. For prisoners in solitary, 23hrs/day of total isolation for several months is far from unusual. As an extreme illustration, read about this man who was in these conditions for 25 years. Further, solitary confinement is used as punishment and control, with little oversight.
2) I’d say so. Solitary confinement is psychological torture.
Now, Manning is an unusually odious case, since unlike most (but not all) in solitary confinement, he hasn’t been convicted. But the abuse he suffers is shared by 25,000 other Americans in prison.
Dollared
@Mike Kay (Team America): Uh Mike, links to your proof? And do you know how much money Manning made, and which foreign government he was conspiring with to steal America’s military secrets?
See any difference here? No? Then you are more concerned with reinforcing authority than the good of the nation.
General Stuck
Listen, as for being a Glenn Greenwald “attacker” I will say this.
GG is 100 percent opposed Barrack Obama period, and don’t give me that bullshit about holding Obama’s feet to the fire same as Bush. And I make no apologies as being for Obama, and anyone, no matter who, anywhere, that tries to lay some specious shit on him or his administration, then that specious shit will be examined and if confirmed, as in fact, specious shit, will also be called bullshit on. Have a nice day.
Omnes Omnibus
@Dollared: FWIW I was not attacking him for anonymous sourcing, but rather saying that the use of such sourcing does diminish the credibility of the piece. I think it is true of all cases of anonymous sourcing. I also understand that it is sometimes a necessary tradeoff that journalists must make.
B-town
@General Stuck:
Look you are basically giving me two options here
1) You read at a second-grade level and can’t understand basic English syntax in particular the function of a semi-colon.
2) You we’re lying by omission and can’t own up to it, since you basically can’t calm yourself down.
Have lurked on this site long enough I’m leaning towards number 2.
General Stuck
@B-town:
Blow it out your ass
There, all calmed down
Dennis SGMM
@stuckinred:
You are correct. A brig is a brig and it can be about the most rigorous confinement there is because brigs are run according to a different set of rules than civilian prisons.
During my time aboard the U.S.S. Lexington many years ago, those confined to the ship’s brig were run throughout the ship every day by Marine brig chasers. Every so many yards the noncom in charge would blow a whistle and the inmates would drop and do push ups until the whistle blew again. This was considered normal for anyone sentenced to short-term confinement. Guys would off themselves rather than serve a long-term sentence at Portsmouth Naval Prison.
MattR
@General Stuck:
Are we allowed to call bullshit on this specious shit? I would be glad to refute it, but first you have to let me know what level of evidence that will require. I am assuming that a single article supporting some action of Obama’s will not be sufficient to disprove that he is “100 percent opposed” to him.
Tom M
@The Dangerman:
getting cleared was serious business. I got the full treatment; financial check, lie detector test, drug and alcohol (of course), personal check back to my High School activities (including Boy Scouts IIRC), my friends were asked if I liked men or women, etc.
BFD. I had to do all that to work at a bank.
Of course, I didn’t do any of that when I had a TS in the military. I guess they were just glad to see me.
Now shut up.
General Stuck
@MattR:
Obama worse than Bush
case closed
PS
@General Stuck: I think you have opinions, but it’s actually quite difficult to tell what they are, since you hide them behind your criticisms of him. In the case of Greenwald, I know very well what his opinions are and can therefore discount for them; in your case, it’s really not entirely clear. I’m paying you the compliment (which you refused to pay me) of assuming that you do not walk in lockstep with someone else. So … what is your view?
Mine is that detention without trial is appalling. That would be true if the conditions were great; if they are bad, so much the worse. And if they are bad but normal, that’s a criticism of “normal” not a justification.
Bnut
@B-town: Always classy to insult someones grammar and have your own post have errors as well.
Three-nineteen
@stuckinred: What an insightful and detailed response. I’m totally on your side now.
If the military prison solitary is different from the civilian system, it would be helpful to know that. If you do in fact know that, please explain what the differences are.
This whole kerfuffle could go away if someone just said “the military is required to treat prisoners suspected of espionage this way, see regulation X”. If this isn’t true, they are either “trying to protect him” (no judgment on whether or not this is true yet, as I’ve seen no evidence) or they’re fucking with him because they can, which IMHO is disgusting and wrong.
stuckinred
@Dennis SGMM: LBJ was designed to deal with guys who refused to go into combat so they tried to make it worse. You could hear the shit going on in there all night.
The Dangerman
@Tom M:
Just an educated guess, but getting cleared to work at a bank is also serious business (assuming one is handling the money in any serious amount). I make no claims to being anything special, just stating the procedure that not all passed.
Now, shut up, too.
General Stuck
@PS:
This has nothing to do with GG’s musings about the conditions of Mr. Manning’s detention. There are a lot of things I simply hate about our justice system and incarceration. Though the military has different ideas on what crimes should indicate pre trial confinement. As a vet, I can assure you, that handing out national secrets to the public, or anyone without legal clearance, is at the very top of that list of serious crimes.
Dennis SGMM
@stuckinred:
LBJ was a godawful fuck story. One of the less-regarded aspects of the war in Vietnam was the racial tension that grew as the war went on. At LBJ the prisoners self-segregated and fucked with each other most of the time. The (mostly) untrained guards there reacted with brutality. LBJ was, as so many other aspects of that war, something of which to be proud.
stuckinred
Inmates spent their days in tedious work details and mundane recreation. For those not inclined to follow the rules, there was always ‘Silver City,’ the maximum confinement area made up of converted Conex shipping containers, where temperatures could exceed 110 degrees. Some inmates considered this a form of torture, and Silver City dramatically contributed to LBJ’s reputation as the worst place to be in Vietnam.
Zuzu's Petals
@General Stuck:
I would imagine if someone was on “prevention of injury” watch, they would be denied sheets and pillows as a matter of course. Just guessing here.
lol
@efgoldman:
Manning was charged five months ago, you moron.
General Stuck
@Zuzu’s Petals:
Absolutely. also no belt buckles, etc…. It is hard to hang yourself with a blanket, I suspect.
MattR
@Zuzu’s Petals: From what I have read, Manning was initially on suicide watch and then moved to “prevention of injury” watch so I am not exactly sure what “prevention of injury” watch is (though I kinda assume it is to prevent others from injuring you)
Carl Nyberg
What are the charges against Bradley Manning?
Five specifications of violating UCMJ Art. 92 (Failure to Obey and Order or Regulation) and eight specifications of violating UCMJ Art. 134 (the general article).
The max punishment for violating Art. 92 is two years in prison. Art. 134 is a little more complicated, but it looks like those charges have a max sentence of three years.
The UCMJ explicitly prohibits punishing the accused before trial. So, the governments conduct is a bit sketchy.
Also, the UCMJ (and the U.S. Constitution) require a “speedy trial”, normally within 120 days of being charged. The government presumably has some exception that it’s claiming pertains.
But this isn’t an espionage case. The UCMJ has articles for charging someone as a spy or for committing espionage. There is also an article for aiding the enemy.
Manning has been charged with none of these things.
I think what most of the government’s critics and most of Manning’s supporters want is for Bradley Manning to be brought to trial expeditiously, as required by the UCMJ and U.S. Constitution. The government should try him on the charges. Let Manning present his defense. If he’s found guilty, sentence him and let him serve his sentence.
The conditions of Manning’s incarceration should be no different than anyone else convicted at courts-martial.
Ruckus
@Andy K:
“Uh, Captain, I’m taking a personal day. I’ll join the battle tomorrow, okay?”
But, honestly, I think this is one better answered by someone like Cole, who, like Manning, volunteered to waive some of his civilian rights.
As did I. Full enlistment. During wartime.
At one time due to illness I spent a short period of time in the discipline barracks as it was also used as the transit barracks on the post I was on. I saw military discipline first hand.
I also served with the shore patrol daily for a period of time. I was the master of arms of the transit barracks on a major navel base for a short time. I saw and delivered military discipline first hand.
I achieved a high enough rank to have others work for me. I saw and delivered military discipline first hand.
And I received an honorable discharge.
I think my bona fides give me the right to comment here.
General Stuck
@Carl Nyberg:
I fully support this observation, and should really be what we are arguing about here. And Not about unverified, and largely dispelled claims of torture.
The Dangerman
@General Stuck:
Mythbusters had an episode where they made a reasonable rope out of toilet paper; I’ll assume just about everything in the cell is designed to prevent it from being turned into a rope/weapon.
B-town
@Bnut:
Am as willing as any to take my lumps for typos (we’re instead if we’re…terrible), but whose grammar was I insulting?
I guess someone else has reading comprehension problems.
Omnes Omnibus
@Carl Nyberg: Actually, I think you have just posted a comment with which everyone should be able to agree. It might well be a miracle.
PS
@Omnes Omnibus: Indeed. But “miracle” … them’s fightin’ words.
Carl Nyberg
@General Stuck:
General Stuck, what about all those cases of government officials passing classified information to journalists in support of the Bush administration’s case for invading Iraq?
The fundamental breakdown that allowed the Iraq War kinda destroyed credibility of the whole system.
The government is free to take inaccurate information and then incorporate the false information into intelligence. The false information is then classified and passed to establishment journalists, who then sell the public on the lies.
And when we ask for accountability we are told that the journalists can’t betray their sources. And no one can be held accountable for getting the intelligence and analysis wrong.
Do you see the asymmetry of the situation? Lies peddled by the powerful are protected by the same system being used to punish Bradley Manning for telling the truth?
Do you think U.S. citizens are entitled to the truth? Are citizens responsible enough to handle the truth? Should Manning be punished for sharing the truth?
What about the people lied to build support for invading Iraq? Should they be punished?
Which did more harm? The lies used to sell the Iraq War or the truth revealed by Manning?
Omnes Omnibus
@PS: I said “might.”
Carl Nyberg
@General Stuck:
Do you accept the solitary confinement can be a form of torture?
Why hasn’t the trial began within 120 days of Manning being charged?
PS
@Omnes Omnibus: And I had a sign indicating humor after my comment, which mysteriously failed to be published. Or should I say, “diabolically”?
eemom
@Nick L:
this tragic fact, and others like it, is the only part of this that I frankly give a shit about.
All kinds of obscure poor people accused of minor offenses languish in prison cells for months awaiting trial because they can’t afford to post bond. Meanwhile they lose whatever little they had in the way of job, home, vehicle. They haven’t been convicted of a crime either.
oh — but maybe they’re not all in solitary. I guess that makes it ok.
It’s so amusing to watch sheep start bleating about abuse and injustice only when some big pig tells them to.
Omnes Omnibus
@PS: I had assumed.
Andy K
@Ruckus:
I never said you didn’t have a right to comment here.
Here, allow me to clarify a bit:
No disrespect intended at all.
My point with the “personal day” remark is that it’s very difficult for the military to carry out its primary function- the defense of the nation- if it allows PFC Goldbrick to shirk his duties. I’m not talking about PFC Doe, who has to go get treated for walking pneumonia, but about Goldbrick, who takes the euphemistic “mental health day”. For example, as put by the incomparable Mojo Nixon, “Oh boss, I’m so sick. I’m so sick….That I gotta go to a party on the beach!” You make that call to your boss at Acme Widget and they let you go to the beach- if you’ve got the PTO bennies. Follow?
General Stuck
onmes
Of course. Depends on the conditions, and especially, as I stated on the original thread on this topic, that of serious sensory deprivation, that to me was what GG article was attempting to establish, without actually stating such.
Allegations that now been proven to be not true, per accepted standards of solitary confinement. I would also agree that length of time in this situation, can at some point become a form of torture, even under comparative humane conditions.
I don’t know if Manning has reached that point yet, but he needs to be tried soon. But what do you do, when you are later convicted of being the moral equivalent of traitor to your country, and placed in general population with other military prisoners who may not appreciate such a crime? I don’t know the answer to that question.
General Stuck
@Carl Nyberg:
I was just stating how I suspect, with some military experience, of how the military views those in it’s ranks handing out classified info. As I always state, I am four square for bad behavior from our government coming to light of day via leaks. Otherwise, not so much.
General Stuck
@General Stuck:
this comment was to Nyberg, not Omnes. sorry
Omnes Omnibus
@Carl Nyberg: The right to a speedy trial does not impose a specific timeframe on the prosecution. Instead, Barker v. Wingo, 407 U.S. 514 (1972), sets forth four factors that a court must consider if a violation is alleged. Those factors are: “(1) the length of the delay; (2) the reasons for the delay; (3) whether the appellant made a demand for a speedy trial; and (4) prejudice to the appellant.” Id. at 503. Aside from the length of the delay, I don’t know that any of us knows the answers WRT the other factors.
Yutsano
@Omnes Omnibus: I would assume his attorney is on top of all that. Plus it seems that the process of calling a court martial to order is harder than a civilian trial is. Not to mention there’s a LOT of evidence that hasn’t come forward yet.
Omnes Omnibus
@Yutsano: I am sure his lawyer is all over it. FWIW the military take on a speedy trial is stricter than civilian take, but it is still based on the Barker v. Wingo factors.
A couple of years clerking for a federal court doing habeas cases and post-conviction motions and a few things stick in the old memory.
Sapient
@Carl Nyberg:
Regarding why Manning hasn’t been tried yet, a late November entry on his lawyer’s web site states that “PFC Manning’s case is currently awaiting an Article 32 hearing. Based upon several defense motions in this case, the government has put the Article 32 hearing on hold until it can determine the classification level of the case. A preliminary classification review is currently being conducted to determine the highest classification level of any relevant information involved in the case.
“The preliminary classification review is expected to last an additional three to six weeks. Once this review is complete, the government will need to take the necessary steps to ensure everyone associated with the case has the requisite security clearance. This process, depending upon the classification level, can be a lengthy one. Once every member of the government and defense has the requisite security clearance, the government will likely begin the Article 32 hearing. ”
In other words, Manning’s attorney has filed motions on his behalf which require response by the government. Presumably, what’s happening is that work is being done in order to provide Manning with a competent defense. There’s no question that each side will require a certain amount of time to sort through the leaked documents, etc. The time that this takes is a legitimate reason for delaying a trial – and it is as much for the defendant’s good as for the government’s. If the government is unnecessarily dragging the process out, the lawyer can demand a hearing before a court. This is usual procedure in criminal cases.
300baud
@General Stuck:
That is an obviously incorrect reading of what he said. Substitute a period for the semicolon and it’s clearer.
Accusing Greenwald of being selective with the truth to make a point is only persuasive if you can demonstrate actual reading comprehension skills. Here, you fail.
Zuzu's Petals
@General Stuck:
I understand in (at least some) regular jails they are provided quilts with knots…harder to rip up.
Nick L
@eemom:
Even though we seem to be on the same page in this – that Manning’s treatment is a noteworthy-but-small attribute of a much deeper and more distressing problem in America – I do have to take some exception to this:
It’s true that the Greenwald wing of left-libertarianism has plenty of sheep, and that Cole also has plenty of sheep. But neither are “big pigs” – both are thoughtful and ideologically independent people that simply don’t know everything, and I think their outrage about Manning’s treatment, though justifiable, also betrays a bit of their ignorance about the American prison system.
Actually, maybe ignorance is too harsh. I’m sure both are fully aware that American prison sucks balls. But I don’t think it’s occurred to a lot of people that prisoners are routinely tortured, and America is okay with it. I think the most egregious example of this is the idea that prisoners in “rough” prisons should simply expect to get raped.
Seriously, think about that. What the fuck kind of society are we, that rape is considered an acceptable part of one’s punishment?
General Stuck
@300baud:
I love it when the glennbots swarm over his critics, and pull up what they think are golden nuggets to impeach all the other evidence of his asshattery, and prance around with this golden nugget, that is actually, all in context, fools gold. In this case an alleged grammar detail.
We have seen this play out many times with national pundits, other than a nobody blog commenter like me. It is classic wingnut debate tactics.
GG and his unnamed sources got it wrong, as did his defenders, and Manning’s attorney called bullshit on it, clearing the air of torture claims in this particular case.
Rekster
@MikeMc:
Please take a look at Jeralyn Merritt’s blog post. She is a real Lawyer lady.
http://www.talkleft.com/story/2010/12/16/04044/684
She breaks this down pretty well and then I guess you can then make your own judgment on how he should be treated.
Zuzu's Petals
@MattR:
I don’t know what the official definition of the term would be in this context. I understand that in regular jails, as well as mental facility, the term is usually “prevention of injury to self or others.” If they’re asking him if he’s okay every few minutes, I suspect it’s injury to self they’re thinking of.
But again, just guessing.
Ruckus
@Andy K:
Are you sure that’s condescending enough?
BTW, I got your examples. And it’s bullshit. Just so you know. The people I knew in the military knew their duty. And they didn’t need to be treated like idiots to get them to do it. They did their duty. Sometimes very dangerous duty. Not always with a smile or without a lot of swearing, but they did it. And people I worked closely with almost died for it, without being treated like idiots. And still they did it. And the question I heard most of all was not why do we have to do this, but why do they treat us like shit?
The answer is because they could. Not because it is necessary.
eemom
@Nick L:
You’re a nicer person than I am.
GG, imo, is the very essence of a big pig. Not sure what you mean by “ideologically independent,” but he sure ain’t that — unless his selective, inconsistent, and self-serving applications of various generally accepted principles counts as “independence.”
Anyway I thought someone said he just wrote a book about prisons.
El Tiburon
@General Stuck:
Keep digging with both shovels. I don’t recall ever seeing someone so wrong about something, yet not own up to it.
The fat Roger Ailes would have a hard-on for you.
General Stuck
@El Tiburon:
Wrong on what? list them.
Rick Ellensburg
@eemom:
Greenwald only has a New York Times Best Selling Book on the Bush Administration and its abuses of power. And he has one of the most-read blogs on the Interent, after a few years blogging. And Senators read from his blog at Senate hearings and his posts lead to front-page news stories in major newspapers.
Why shouldn’t people listen to him?
DPirate
John Cole, you don’t know what you are talking about. Oh, gee, he can only sleep for 9 hours a day and he doesn’t get HBO? You think this is equivalent to torture? Get a grip.
I wish he wasn’t in jail at all, but your post and all the wigging out on the internet about this is pathetic and wrong.
EDIT: BTW, 6’x12′ is HUGE!
DPirate
@Cacti: Yes, as opposed to America, where laying down in a subway while brown is a capital offence.
debbie
Greenwald’s recent writing is increasingly harder to read, what with all his sarcasm and snark. So much bluster in such a small space.
I’m bothered by the fact that he’s far more upset about Bradley Manning’s treatment than he was about Cameron Todd Willingham’s. Now there’s a real victim.
El Tiburon
@General Stuck:
AS another commenter pointed out, this is pure, 100%, unadulterated bullshit of the highest order. Again, how you can be so wrong and so full of shit and still pretend to know what you are talking about is laughable.
Praise for Obama defending “Ground Zero” Mosque
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/08/13/mosque/index.html
Obama’s Impressive New OLC Chief
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2009/01/05/olc
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/radio/2009/04/16/aclu
…there is no grounds for criticizing Obama here and substantial grounds for praising him.
Even so, it is true Greenwald has heaped loads of criticisms on Obama, and justifiably so. Greenwald specializes in civil liberties in his blog. It is no secret that Obama has pursued disastrous Bush-era polices in this area far more than Bush ever did. And Greenwald reports on this.
I find it much more despicable that Obama is doing this than when Bush was doing it. Much more.
Sixers
He has a TV but it doesn’t have basic cable. The horror. He broke a serious law. You don’t get to disqualify that by saying no one got hurt.
General Stuck
And this quote is from one of Cole’s there are tons of links out there verifying how he is being treated and why.
Mr. House was one of GG’s sources and pretty much boils down what GG’s article was trying to say. All of it, Manning’s lawyer now says is untrue. He is under “prevention of injury” status, or suicide watch. He gets to watch teevee, but only local teevee stations, and no cable news, thank gawd for his sanity. He doesn’t have sheets and pillow, as part of POI status, but gets blankets to keep warm. He gets to exercise one hour per day. His lawyer doesn’t indicate he is being interrrogated, and he gets plenty of reading material of his choice. To keep informed about the world outside. And every so often, his guards asks him if he is OK.
The Army needs to bring him to trial however, sooner, rather than later.
eemom
@Rick Ellensburg:
Also I kind of think you’re full of shit with most of those assertions, anyway. Glenn.
General Stuck
@El Tiburon:
Obama worse than Bush
case closed
burnspbesq
@John Cole:
BZZT yourself, John. You know perfectly well that that’s irrelevant to the question of whether Manning is guilty of stealing government property.
Andy K
@Ruckus:
Well, if you thought THAT was condescending, then, I guess not.
Which is wonderful, that everyone was doing their patriotic duty and all, answer me this: How much of this begrudged compliance was born out of a pre-existing sense of noble patriotism, and how much was instilled through basic training and a fear of repercussions? And what would have happened if you did, indeed, have bad apples in the unit?
This is where I actually start getting actually condescending.
Because you’re little fucking cogs that make the big machine work. If, for some reason one day you don’t dig holes and fill those holes back in, it’s a sign that there’s the possibility that some of the cogs aren’t working correctly, which, absent repairs, could cause the machine to malfunction at the worst possible time.
No, because even when the system isn’t being abused by chickenshit officers issuing chickenshit orders, the best of officers have to know that when they send a unit into a position that MUST be defended , even at the expense of the lives of every soldier in that unit, even though that unit is being utilized as nothing but a redoubt in order to provide time for other units to prepare to meet an onslaught with better odds, they must know the unit will carry out its orders.
burnspbesq
@cathyx:
Go back a few days, to the original post on this topic, and you will see virtually every commenter here who is an actual lawyer saying exactly that. Which is why John’s “shithouse lawyer” crack is so far off base and offensive.
DPirate
@Yutsano: What is Assange supposed to do from Sweden? Also, I am disdainful of anyone implying that Manning wasn’t aware of what he was doing. It insults his intelligence, and negates any sense of righteous motive he may have had. You seem to say that Manning is just a stoolie.
@John Cole: Well, I’ve been to jail, and been held in conditions similar to those described by Manning, except that my cell was about 6’x10′ more or less. I was there for appr. 24 days, iirc. I got a shower once a day, and solitary “exercise” in a glass room for one hour if I wanted it. There was no tv, and there were no books, although you could request a bible. Cells were side-by-side and there was to be no talking, yet of course talking was done. Books were also smuggled between us. You could go to the law library for a couple hours a day if you wished to.
I was glad when it ended, but I liked being there. It was a welcome respite from the constant noise and posturing in general population. The most interesting thing that happened was when some of the others convinced a prisoner who was mentally-something not to take his meds (he was in there for self-protection) and the guards bumrushed him and made him take it. One female guard got into some sort of sexual relationship with another prisoner: I suspect she liked to watch him masturbate, as she sort of implied that I should as well. Seriously, the only torturous aspect of his captivity seems to be that if the guards check on him every five minutes they won’t allow him to jack off in peace.
Glinda
@Cacti: Thank you for that bit of reality. Considering that too much sleep can be a health problem and that when depressed the desire to oversleep is not uncommon, that part of his confinement could hardly be considered torture.
I have mixed feelings about Manning but he was military, he knew the rules, he broke them and he, like anyone else participating in “civil disobedience” should be prepared to take the consequences. This was by any definition espionage and I wholeheartedly agree with soonergrunt on thisl.
Sapient
@General Stuck:
Can’t tell you how happy I am that you’re making such a persuasive case. El Tiburon’s statement that “Greenwald specializes in civil liberties in his blog. It is no secret that Obama has pursued disastrous Bush-era polices in this area far more than Bush ever did.” This is so ridiculous and so wrong. Not to mention so dangerous to the cause of civil liberties generally, since this is exactly the kind of disastrous thinking that caused the Bush/Cheney reign of terror in the first place.
Thanks, General Stuck, for fighting it.
Sapient
@General Stuck:
Can’t tell you how happy I am that you’re making such a persuasive case. El Tiburon’s statement that “Greenwald specializes in civil liberties in his blog. It is no secret that Obama has pursued disastrous Bush-era polices in this area far more than Bush ever did.” This is so ridiculous and so wrong. Not to mention so dangerous to the cause of civil liberties generally, since this is exactly the kind of disastrous thinking that caused the Bush/Cheney reign of terror in the first place.
Thanks, General Stuck, for fighting it.
burnspbesq
@Buck:
Yes, it is commonly accepted that he did it. He has admitted it in interviews.
Manning is toast. The only way he is ever again a free man is if the prosecution fucks up. Which is why the circumstances of his confinement, in addition to being barbaric, are profoundly stupid.
Jeez, put the guy in a suite at the Willard, and let him have all the pay-per-view porn and cashews from the minibar that he wants. The object of the game at this point is to get him to roll over on Assange, and do it in a way the yields admissible evidence.
maskling
the marines who guard our embassies worldwide have standing orders directing them to shoot to kill any person who is known to be absconding with classified material. the classified material is regarded as a living hostage, and a kill shot is taken if it arises. manning could have been shot dead if it was known what was on his lady gaga cd.
not saying that solitary is not cruel – it is. not saying manning should have been killed. no.
i am saying that manning was in the army and should have known this may be coming. but he did not regard this as much more than a fun game, i reckon. the kid had a screw loose, perhaps, and after solitary, he will be crazier than hell.
it was not worth it, private manning.
soonergrunt
@Carl Nyberg:
“Why hasn’t the trial began within 120 days of Manning being charged?”
Well, there are the dual issues of the government holding a classification determination and an RCM 706 board.
For those of you who don’t know, RCM 706 boards are commonly known as “sanity boards.” So it’s entirely possible for a Soldier in PTC to have extra security protocols simply because there is an RCM 706 board.
Note here that the attorney, David Coombs, has denied requesting an RCM 706 board, and the government is not answering inquiries on the subject.
The RCM 706 board can take “as long as it needs to take” as I have been told.
General Stuck
@Sapient:
LOL, fairly clever. Lies are lies. always. and rarely lead to anything good.
edit – even though the ultimate cause, is a good one.
soonergrunt
@Omnes Omnibus: You should read http://www.caaflog.com
It’s a site for military appellate lawyers. The last couple of years there were several instances where the Court of Appeals of the Armed Forces (CAAF) either threw out or reduced punishment in several cases involving unnecessary trial and appellate delays. This was followed by the service courts of criminal appeals clamping down the next term, and this is a huge issue right now.
Also, since a court-martial is considered completed under the law until all statutorily allowed appeals are exhausted, there are opportunities for years after the original trial for the Defense to lodge appeals for various things.
In one recent case, the CAAF forced the Army Court of Criminal Appeals to adjust a Defendent’s sentence for sexual exploitation of a minor from 12 years and a Dishonorable Discharge to six months and no discharge because somebody (it’s not clear who) lost a part of a Defense exhibit, which is part of the trial record.
Mike G
@Cacti:
Funny, that’s exactly the Repuke party position on the self-admitted crimes of Bush and Cheney. In fact, they have bragged about committing crimes that resulted in the deaths of thousands and are celebrated by many Republicans for these actions.
Too bad Manning wasn’t an oil company CEO or the idiot scion of a well-connected rich family, committing crimes in service of right-wing greed. He’d have his own show on Fox News by now and be making lucrative speeches to cheering crowds of assholes.
General Stuck
I will say this however. That I don’t think GG is necessarily opposed to Obama 100 percent, as much as opposed to the idea of a presidency in our system of government, or a central executive power of state authority in one individual. Obama just happens to be the dude that is presnit now. I suspect GG would, and will turn on any president, no matter how liberal or conservative. Dem or repub.
mclaren
Marvelous. I’m delighted to see the quislings rush forward to justify this kind of abomination. They’re telling us exactly who they are, and that’s good, because now we know who the enemy is.
It’s not Al Qaeda. It’s you people who try to excuse this kind behavior by our government.
The Balloon Juice commentariat aptly illustrates the depraved and debased nature of America in the 21st century. When the mobs finally exact vengeance, those of you who tried to act as apologists for this stuff will be first ones in the tumbrels.
Dicky Kunc
@General Stuck: All night and all day, clanking their batons on the bars like they did at Abu Ghraib?
It’s sad when people no longer trust a purportedly democratic government; it is worse when they have reason not to trust it.
MoZeu
@Keith G: Well, we know he has TV up to 3 hours per day. We know he receives visitors, because John’s link contains quotes from someone who visits him. I assume he is allowed to read. I have no idea if he is permitted other solitary diversions, like drawing, playing an instrument. (Please, no masturbation jokes in response, OK?) He may be, he may not be. Does anyone here know? Doesn’t seem like it.
The conditions stink, but torture? Really?? No. This is not torture. It is typical solitary confinement, nothing more, nothing less. In military prison. It’s ugly. That does not mean it is torture. Please do not trivialize the word.
Should he be in solitary confinement at all? I have no idea. Case can be made that it is inappropriate. Have his lawyers tried to have him moved to general population? If not, why not? If so, what has the result been?
I really don’t have enough facts to make a determination that this is some kind of outrage. Of course I do not like the thought of any person in solitary confinement for 7 months. I’m not a sadist. But I realize that this is not an isolated practice, and Bradley Manning is not the only person accused of a crime but not tried to be kept out of the general prison population.
Triassic Sands
Yeah, this sounds like it is really designed for Manning’s welfare. Asking him every five minutes if he is OK and demanding an answer is nothing more than harassment. Imagine if you were sick and your caregivers asked you every five minutes if you were OK. Would you think they cared about your well-being or were trying to drive you crazy? The answer is pretty obvious.
As for sleep, waking him during the night if he turns to the wall or pulls his blanket up too high also sounds like harassment disguised as “concern.”
General Stuck
@Dicky Kunc:
Agree on both counts. See GWB and his long lasting legacy. I do think somebody needs to try and keep perspective, however.
wengler
I can safely assume that the birther Lt. Colonel was also confined in solitary with severe restrictions on his activity before his court martial?
Mike
This is not dissimilar from the horrific treatment Wen Ho Lee received. Mr. Lee was innocent but accepted a plea deal to get out of prison. The judge apologized for the treatment Mr. Lee received from the Bush regime.
http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2000/9/19/a-national-embarrassment-pcivil-liberties-have/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wen_Ho_Lee
America is, at heart, a fascist state.
Sapient
Mike, Lee was mistreated during the Clinton administration. He subsequently was paid damages to the tune of 1.5 million dollars. http://www.slate.com/id/2143222/
When the United States makes mistakes, the victim sometimes has the opportunity for redress. We have to be careful that America not become a fascist state – there is certainly a lot to worry about. But it isn’t, at its heart, a fascist state.