A friend just emailed me to tell me that local right-wing radio guy Bob Lonsberry just spent an hour on Obama’s birth certificate.
I believe that neo-birtherism — hey, I believe Obama was born here but there are legitimate questions — will gain momentum over the next year. I believe that we will hear at least one non-partisan Village type (Cokie, Howard Fineman) say “just release all the documents” and that some “respectable” conservative (Gerson, Kraut, Douthat) will engage in some form of neo-birtherism (why is his name misspelled on his student id, etc.).
What do you think?
Update. One down and one to go: it’s Tweety.
D0n Camillo
Is it irresponsible to speculate? It would be irresponsible not to speculate.
Phil Perspective
What do you think?
Just shoot me now!
EdTheRed
Ask, and ye shall receive:
Even the liberal Chris Mathews wants to know why Obama won’t just release all the documents.
taylormattd
Without a doubt this will happen.
But really, the House republicans no longer need the “respectable” journalists to go first.
Rather, what is going to happen is that one or more House committee chairs will launch hearings on birther-related issues, and various “journalists” at the Times, the Post, and elsewhere will rush to reprint verbatim the propaganda generated at the hearings, and to explain how normal and proper the hearings are.
Redshirt
I can’t prove any of us exist, not at the quantum level at least. Why won’t they release the quantum spin measurements?!
Jewish Steel
I think they will gin up something meatier. Birhterism is a Swift Boat that won’t float.
However, I consistently overestimate team R.
jsfox
It seems some may get their wish.
Hawaii’s governor wants to reveal Obama birth info
Not that this will stop the birthers from proclaiming that it is a fake document.
The Republic of Stupidity
What do ***I*** think?
Me? Personally?
I think this is idiotic beyond words…
These feckless asshats are basically saying the DNC, RNC, FBI, SS, CIA, the States of Hawaii and Illinois, and the Dept of State have all either been fooled by this fiendish Kenyan’s plot, or are part of it…
And only a small band of
gaaaaaawd-awful idjitsplucky rebels can save the entire farkin’ galaxy…bleh
I actually think they’re scrounging. They’ve tried to resuscitate a few of the old favorites (Death Panels too), but they don’t seem to be getting much traction.
I think the glories of Palinism are past, and the whole hyperventilating-mouth-breathers crowd is just not gonna get the kind of publicity they were given in the past. They’ll get it on Fox and Drudge and Limbaugh — and Palin — of course, but that’s just preaching to the choir.
The big “unless” for me is the GOP House. If the MSM decide that the imaginary issues they dream up, and put on shows about, are worth covering, then there’s a whole new vein to mine.
But I wonder whether they’ve finally poisoned the well with all their silly nonsense. We’ll know soon enough. If the MSM are skeptical about the first few attempts from Darrell Issa et al., the whole circus may shut down before it really hits the road.
GregB
Is Dan Burton going to shoot a watermelon in his backyard to try to prove something about this?
Politically Lost
Doug,
I’d put my money on Kraut.
By the way, is there a seething cauldron somewhere we can gaze into and figure out the next freak out will be?
I suppose if you stew Atlas Juggs, Redstate, Malkin, etc. into some unholy internet love tryst you could become a soothsayer on coming conservative freak show attractions.
Poopyman
I think I’m going to go flatten some tulip poplar with a jack plane. I need to get a couple of quick & easy gifts done before the weekend, the weather here in MD is pretty good, I need the exercise, lunch is digested, and I’m not ready for more outrage.
Later ….
bobbo
Didn’t Sully already join the “just release the documents” crowd? Or maybe he retracted that or something? I can’t keep track of his movements in and out of lunacy.
biff diggerence
It will be incredible theatre.
They have a black penis to investigate this time.
Mike Kay (True Grit)
just shows they’ve got nothing substantive to whine about.
Mike Kay (True Grit)
btw, what’s a worse CT: birtherism or the far left insisting Obama will slash social security during the state of the union address?
Just Some Fuckhead
Simply amazing it’s always Democratic presidents whose legitimacy is questioned and the press just goes with it instead of stepping back and saying WTF?!
mr. whipple
WTF????????
Derelict
Personally, I’m hoping that Issa launches a full-scale Congressional investigation of this and any number of Obama scandals.
And I hope that Obama wheels out the Bush adminsitration’s Unitary Executive brief (complete with prior Supreme Court decision saying the Executive Branch need not comply with Congressional subpoenas) to essentially say F.O.A.D. to the GOP
Davis X. Machina
@GregB: Not. He’s going to shoot old copies of the Honolulu Advertiser instead.
catclub
@The Republic of Stupidity: This.
Hillary Clinton’s opposition research team.
(Apparently all along she just wanted Obama to win.)
George W Bush’s State Department.
Karl Rove and his opposition research department.
All complicit.
New Yorker
@bobbo:
I think you’re thinking of his obsession with Palin’s pregnancy with Trig.
That’s a lot like what the 9/11 truthers sound like “Hey, I think Osama bin Laden was behind the attacks, but there are legitimate questions about NORAD’s response, the way the towers collapsed, whether UA 93 was shot down, etc.” It’s the way to make abject insanity sound more responsible to people who don’t want to hear it.
JoshA
Not sure he counts, but Chris Matthews is already filling that role while still saying he’s not a birther:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/28/chris-matthews-obama-birthers_n_801818.html
Redshift
@Politically Lost: Apparently there’s a Heritage Foundation e-newsletter you can subscribe to that will tell you most of the upcoming talking points a few weeks in advance. I’d subscribe, but I don’t thinkm I could stomach it. If you do, you probably want to create a separate webmail address for it, though, since I’ll bet they immediately sell your address to all sorts of wingnut groups.
Dave
This country is so totally screwed.
Obama shouldn’t have to do this b/c it’s so fucking laughable, Chris! And if he responds to this, that sets the precedent of the White House having to answer to every made-up, bullshit, teatard fever-dream that comes down the pike.
But hey, this is WAY more important that Wall Street rolling in billions of bonus-dollar money and the GOP getting set to let the lobbyists run the House. Asshole.
johio
Sully did join the crowd but retracted when someone pointed out the birth certificate had been published on Obama’s website in mid 2008.
Wouldn’t it be easier for Matthews to carry a sign? “Hi, my name is Chris Matthews and I’m a complete fool.”
kommrade reproductive vigor
What do I think? I think Obama should hire a group of look-a-likes (this will not be difficult*). These men who look like him will be tasked with hanging around certain areas: Mosques, gay bars, abortion clinics, soshulust clubs, rap videos &c. until these jackasses jump off a bridge a la Steve Brody in the Bowery Bugs cartoon.
*Because we all look alike.
Dave
@mr. whipple: Doug was using that as the example of what they would say. I hope…
Tonal Crow
I wish this fever-swamp to grow until every congressional Republican and Republican presidential candidate talks about little else. Ideally, this crazy will peak a few days prior to election day 2012.
GregB
I think we need a new term for this second round of birther questioning.
How about the after-birthers?
Baud
Wouldn’t it be funny if it turns out Obama was born in Kenya and therefore his signing of the bill extending the Bush tax cuts was declared unlawful?
Oops. I think I may have convinced the Professional Left to become birthers. Nevermind…
dmsilev
Of course the “serious” journalists will talk about it. After all, questions have been raised, and it would be irresponsible not to speculate, because where there’s smoke, there’s fire, now that the issue is out there.
(I think I just made Pundit Bingo).
dms
Mnemosyne
@jsfox:
I actually feel kind of sorry for the governor because his efforts will be absolutely useless due to the fact that he was friends with Barack Obama Sr. and Stanley Ann Durham and actually saw the president when he was a baby. This is, of course, absolute proof that Abercrombie is in on the conspiracy because only someone who was in on the conspiracy would claim he’d seen a baby in Hawaii that the birthers know wasn’t born in Hawaii.
mr. whipple
@Dave:
Jeebus, I hope so.
General Stuck
I think we are in for a world of shit. The wingnuts will divide up into cadres of crazy and roll every rock for a golden nugget that is shiny to show their friends and the country how their discovery proves once and for all that Obama is the motherfucking Devil incarnate.
It will make the Clinton witchhunts seem like mouse hunts in comparison. But none that shit should matter much, because Obama unlike Clinton is fairly sneaky clean, and Rahm will be manning the fort in Chicago when the citizen johnsolists show up to scour that City. Not to mention it being the Obama committee to reelect central command.
These things don’t worry me so much, and without actual golden nuggets for smear, instead, it will seem like fools gold to the public and a big waste of time in dire times, unless there are no jobs, then anything can happen.
What worries me is the wingnuts in the House defunding everything that moves with a P for progressive mandate from progressive laws enacted, especially HCR, which is the bullseye for these miscreant nihilists. They having nothing of substance on Obama and will play with matches to threaten a torching of the whole damn thing. And are so stupid, as to accidentally pyro this country sheer pure grade stupidity. Gawd hep us all.
Redshift
@Just Some Fuckhead: Yeah, and it’s annoying that they always get caught up in talking about documents, when the real response to birtherism is “why do you question these birth records and no others?”
To any sane person, the first step to be taken seriously should be “I have actual evidence,” not “I have suspicions and you should be required to disprove them.”
MikeJ
Just out of curiosity, where did the whole “vault copy” thing start? Has anybody seen a doctor finish delivery of a child and then turn to a giant tome, wheeled in on a portable lectern, that he then signs with a quill pen and enters the vitals of the child?
Is that what they think happens or what a birth certificate is?
jsfox
@Mnemosyne:
I just got a headache trying to follow the logic of this. Which means you are probably spot on.
Nellcote
I think the President should force a Governor to violate the laws of his state for political reasons.
What could go wrong?
Tony J
Yeah, the ‘new thinking’ out there on the Wingnut grapevine seems to be that they always thought that the Birthers were silly people chasing a lost cause, but the fact that people who know Obama aren’t happy to just let the issue fade away obviously means that the Birthers were onto something after all, and the Congressional GOP should hold hearings to find out what he’s hiding and dog him him with it for the next two years.
The politics of serious people.
Ash Can
Meh. It’s a dead news period, and Tweety et al. are desperate for eyes/ears.
MikeJ
@dmsilev: We’ll have to leave it there.
Amir_Khalid
Do the neo-birtherists ever actually say what legitimate questions they have? If it has not been done already, shouldn’t someone challenge them to do so?
Mnemosyne
@jsfox:
It’s perfectly simple, if completely insane: any proof you have that casts doubt on the conspiracy is really only proof that you’re in on the conspiracy.
JPL
@MikeJ: I like the long form of the birth certificate.. lol
JPL
How long before they call for his school transcripts? (not the ones from Harvard but the ones from when he attended schools in Indonesia)
Legalize
Even the liberal Chris Matthews, host on the liberal network, MSNBC ….
Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther
Here’s what I don’t understand (well, one of the many, many things that I don’t understand):
If someone leads by saying “Hey, I believe Obama was born here,” how do they then get to “there are legitimate questions”?
If he was born here, and is older than 35 years of age, he has a Constitutional right to be President. There are no other questions to ask!
Maybe they’ll doubt the birthdate? “He was really only 32 when he was inaugurated! Un-do, un-do!”
Dave
@MikeJ: I think it was because Obama’s birth certificate says “Certification of Live Birth” which is a copy and therefore utterly false. The “vault copy” would be the real actual certificate in this alternate reality.
Baud
@Mnemosyne: Exactly. A conspiracy for which there is no evidence can only be confirmed or covered up. There are no other options.
Sasha
Obama wasn’t born in Hawaii, he was incarnated.
dmsilev
@MikeJ: Without checking, I’m going to guess that the whole “vault copy” thing arose roughly 15 minutes after the Obama campaign posted the image of his certificate.
That said, there probably are a large number of birthers who believe that there is a Giant Birth Certificate Vault which is guarded by a dragon and a herd of unicorns, and can only be accessed by a warrior who is Pure of Heart and has been proved worthy of carrying Excalibur. Even worse, I’ll bet a lot of them think Sarah Palin is this paladin.
dms
Bill E Pilgrim
That Huffpost Tweety article:
..made it sound like Tweety was expecting that Obama would be the next NeoBirther.
Okay I mean I’m generally pretty supportive of Obama, all things considered, but that would be going over the line. “Look, let’s be clear: I believe I was born in the US, but I’m just saying, there are legitimate questions.”
Suffern ACE
Meh. I’m guessing the real interesting part will be at the state level and certain new demands and election review panels that will be set up for the purpose of disqualifying him from ballots in those states. Just a guess, but some of those new state legislatures look scarier than anything at the federal level.
Tonal Crow
@Mnemosyne:
Well said, and applicable to a wide array of Republican stupidmongering, from climate-change denialism to Dominionism.
Southern Beale
Dylan Ratigan was doing a thing on birtherism today. He had the liberal and conservative pundits on to discuss both sides of the issue — because apparently there are TWO sides to this story! — tho the conservative kept saying birtherism is “a fringe issue,” and claimed “there are no conservative leaders who question the president’s legitimacy” which is flat-out wrong. Tom Tancredo is a birther, he just got his own fucking radio show. Joseph Farah of WingNut Daily is suddenly relegated to the “fringe” although cons consider him the voice of truth on every other issue. Lou Dobbs, Sean Hannity, G. Gordon Liddy … all are birthers. So is Rush Limbaugh.
So glad to know these assholes are now on the conservative “fringe.” Maybe that means we can stop paying attention to them.
Jack
No matter what evidence is produced, the birthers will never accept it and will move the goalposts (see McCain re:DADT).
God Himself could come down and hold a news conference, complete with back-up affidavits from Jesus and the Holy Ghost, stating that Barack Obama was born in a US state to a mother who was a US citizen, and that STILL would not be enough for these maroons.
Then they would demand time and geolocation stamped video of the birth…
sb
@Mnemosyne: This.
If Obama produced the certificate during the state of the union, he’ll be grilled about why it took so long to produce it.
It. Will. Never. Stop.
dmsilev
@Sasha: I prefer to believe that he willed himself into existence.
Either that, or he’s a time traveler living life on a closed curve, and was never actually born. Go ahead, prove me wrong.
dms
zmulls
@General Stuck:
You may have meant to type it that way; but if not, it’s my favorite typo of all time. (This week, anyway)
4tehlulz
Somewhere, David Irving is alone with a drink in his hand, thinking bitterly about how he and his ilk blazed the trail for the birthers and teatards and won’t ever get the credit they deserve.
catclub
@General Stuck: “Obama unlike Clinton is fairly sneaky clean.”
LOL – you may say it is just a typo. Some people think a cigar is just a good smoke.
zmulls beat me to it.
Tonal Crow
@Sasha:
Ooo, a chance to start a madlibs chain:
…by Satan, for _______ and _______, but _______ causing _______ and _______ unless _______.
Mnemosyne
@MikeJ:
It started when Barack Obama released his birth certificate and proved he was born in the US. That’s when the birthers started screaming that a document that was good enough to prove citizenship for any other purpose wasn’t good enough to prove citizenship for the presidency.
Snopes has a pretty good rundown of all of various forms of birther insanity that includes a jpg of the president’s birth certificate.
licensed to kill time
You can whack its skull with a crowbar, you can drop an Egyptian obelisk on it, you can light it on fire, you can blow its head off with a shotgun, you can run it over with a car, trap it in a pit of concrete, run it through a wood chipper, you can even try to starve it out but you will never kill the ZOMBIE BIRTH CERTIFICATE FIXATION because it is the UNDEAD.
And so are its followers. They will always rise again, hungry for braaaaaaaanzzzzz…..
Tonal Crow
@Jack:
And if this were produced, they would demand that the producer be prosecuted for obscenity.
Makewi
You have to blame the Star Advertiser and Hawaii’s new governator Abercrombie for this being in the news again.
Tonal Crow
@licensed to kill time: “Nuke it from orbit. It’s the only way to be sure.”
Barb (formerly Gex)
@New Yorker: Nope. Sully briefly joined the “why won’t he show the documents” crowd. Well after it had all been debunked. It all had to be debunked for him personally. And still, I bet he’s the “what would it hurt to just release the documents” kind of enabler.
Suffern ACE
@Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther: Nah. The issue moves then to whether or not he somehow or his mother or step father undid the citizenship thing in Indonesia while he stuided at the radical madrassa.
Nellcote
@MikeJ:
FWIW I got a copy of my birth certificate some years ago that appears to be a photocopy of the hospital form. It has a doctor’s sig & a witness sig, presumably the nurse. It does have more info than the certificate of live birth that was posted online such as parent’s ages etc. But the basic info on the colb is all that’s really needed to certify.
stuckinred
Bet Hamsher thinks it’s a worthy topic too.
kommrade reproductive vigor
@MikeJ: When a black man looked like becoming the next PotUS. Or to be accurate, when he produced a certified copy of his Birth Certificate.
A certified copy is the only document you, I or any other citizen can ever get from the state DHS. The state can’t and won’t release the original. However, once Obama produced the only document that is available, that suddenly wasn’t good enough. Thus was the original long form vault copy born.
Seriously, by the standards they’ve set for Obama, NO ONE can prove he’s a natural born U.S. citizen.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
@GregB:
Born-again birthers
[nope, too redundant]
Birther-nation bandwaggoners
[no, too long]
Casual weekend birthers
[sigh – it just doesn’t roll off the tongue easily]
Birther-curious
[copyright it]
Bill E Pilgrim
@Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther:
“There are legitimate questions” is actually full of Birther goodness, telegraphing “legitimate” so people think, oooh, and the opposite of that is “illegitimate!” for one thing.
And no, it will never end. There is no point, nothing, no amount of data or anyone who knew him or his parents and no further documentation upon hearing or seeing which any Birther will say “Oh. I see. Okay then. That’s that.”
There is zero chance. Evidence is way beside the point here.
Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther
@Suffern ACE:
Ah, but if you’re born here and don’t (personally) swear allegiance to an enemy power or become a member of its government, you can’t lose your citizenship (I have dual citizenship, for instance, and no one batted an eye). I don’t think that it can even be revoked in the courts!
Once you admit that he was born here, there are no other questions!
Not that reason has stopped these fuckers yet. I confess to a failure to understand the fuckers.
SiubhanDuinne
Sad O/T:
RIP, Billy Taylor. What a great jazzman he was. Died last night, age 89. Peace, Dr. Taylor.
Barb (formerly Gex)
@Suffern ACE: And they’ve already tried the “everything you as a person are comes from the father’s semen”, so Obama must be just like his dad. It’s a really nice juxtaposition for the Christian right to be “anti-Muslim” and to reduce to just a birthing vessel his American mother.
srv
Krugman has identified a new term, Geliocracy, meaning rule by the ridiculous.
kommrade reproductive vigor
@Sasha: He sprang fully formed from the head of his father: Bill Malcom X Ayers.
General Stuck
Who’s to say of Obama’s origins?
The was found and is very old and quite disturbing if you ask me.
Bill E Pilgrim
@ThatLeftTurnInABQ: After Birthers has a great ring, but Birther-Curious is pure genius and wins.
Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther
@Bill E Pilgrim:
Or, you know, what he said!
jibeaux
@Mnemosyne:
Hell, he could execute an affidavit saying he saw the infant Barack Obama emerging from his mother’s birth canal in the middle of a luau and that wouldn’t help.
Brick Oven Bill
Amir_Khalid asks:
Do the neo-birtherists ever actually say what legitimate questions they have? If it has not been done already, shouldn’t someone challenge them to do so?
Answers:
1. Yes.
2. You just did.
Therefore;
Exhibit ‘A’;
The father’s race is listed as ‘African’. African was not a ‘race’ in the early 1960s. In the early 1960s, people from Africa were called ‘negros’. Around 1970, the race adopted a new name ‘blacks’. The race ‘Africans’ was not adopted until the 1980s, when Barry was learning his skill sets at college.
Exhibit ‘B’;
Barry was willing to share a physical copy of his birth certificate with friendly news outlets, who were allowed to touch it. This certificate, of course, is not available for others to touch and has apparently disappeared.
Exhibit ‘C’;
Barry’s college records are sealed, a practice without precedent for a United States President. These records would show his claimed Citizenship status.
So why is this important?
It is because beyond the Principle of the rule of law, if Barry is, in fact, not Constitutionally seated, he is completely beholden to blackmail, specifically mentioning by the Banking interests. On a completely unrelated note, Barry named a Goldman Sachs lobbyist to be Tim’s Chief of Staff.
Comrade Colette Collaboratrice
@ThatLeftTurnInABQ: Birthopolists? Birthenogenesists? Neo-birtharians?
Mike Kay (True Grit)
@Southern Beale:
how can that be!! Dylan is the only “true progressive” on tee vee!!
DJShay
Even if the law is changed in Hawaii (it’s apparently the reason the “long form” certificate hasn’t been released) and the document is released, it will not satisfy the teatard birthers. They’ll just say it was forged. Asshats. And the media too for pushing this garbage. FU Chris, “Can’t speak without spitting” Matthews. It YOUR effing industry that feeds this crap. We’re becoming a nation of idiots because of people like you and your racist, genocidal friend Pat Buchanan. *Did someone mention execution today?*
Bill E Pilgrim
@Brick Oven Bill:
African-Americans were called negros. His father was African.
(Great, now I’m arguing with one of them. Must be dinner time.)
JPL
@Nellcote: CT had a long form the hospital. It was not to be used as a legal document. This was in 1978 when my son was born. The only legal document was the one issued by the state. It sounds as though Hawaii is the same way. I’m not even sure where that form is anymore so my son can’t run for President.
EDIT..it was simply a keepsake type of form..I flunked that I guess.
Tony J
See troll at #67 for proof of #40.
It’s the new meme. “They wouldn’t be so angry about us saying it if some of it wasn’t true.”
Mike Kay (True Grit)
@stuckinred: you mean the queen of conspiracy theories
Davis X. Machina
@Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther:
Trop v. Dulles (1954), which says basically that stripping you of your citizenship as a criminal penalty is cruel and unusual, and hence unconstitutional — but executing you is not.
That way, you get to die an American….
DJShay
@Mike Kay (True Grit):
I’ve always said that the “progressives” will join the teatards at one point. I have a bet on when the first birther diary goes up at Daily Kos, FireDogLake, or where ever Greenwald writes these days.
Nellcote
@Mike Kay (True Grit):
Maybe Cent’s still subbing for him.
Mnemosyne
@Suffern ACE:
According to Snopes, it’s impossible for a parent to renounce their child’s citizenship. Only an adult can do it and only on their own behalf. If you’re born in the United States, you’re an American citizen until the day you formally renounce it and become a citizen of another country.
Kinda like being Roman Catholic, I guess. ;-)
DJShay
@Brick Oven Bill: Orly Taint? Is that you?
Tonal Crow
@Brick Oven Bill: That’s some mighty good trollin’. Just make sure to get inside before sunrise.
kommrade reproductive vigor
@JPL: Yup. Hospital birth certificate : State issued bc :: Church issued marriage certificate : State issued mc.
I’ve known a couple of people who found out the form from the hospital doesn’t cut it when they tried to get passports.
Mike Kay (True Grit)
@DJShay: FDL and glenn are already a hot bed of conspiracy theories.
Hanoi jane actually peddled the Resko crap as early 2006.
sb
@DJShay: Same command of the language. Might be her.
Brick Oven Bill
Here, the news outlet Factcheck is allowed to touch Barry’s birth certificate. The fingers illustrated belong to a reported Joe Miller (no apparent relation to the Alaska candidate). Factcheck assures us of its findings:
‘Obama was born in the United States.’
Factcheck just happens to be owned by George Soros.
Nobody else is allowed to touch Barry’s birth certificate.
Nellcote
@JPL:
That’s interesting. Mine was from San Francisco Dept of Records and meant to be a valid birth cert. used for ids etc. But it was a looong time ago. Maybe I’ll send for another one to check out the change in format.
TOP123
@dmsilev: Willed himself into existence. Brilliant.
The only question is, would he still inherit the ‘seed of Islam’ from his father?
DJShay
@bobbo: Yes, he did. I emailed him a while back when he wrote that God Awful post and this is what he emailed me back.
danimal
Heard some birtherism on KFI last night from the remarkably ignorant Tim Conway Jr (remove all humor from his father and you get a wannabe rightwing gasbag). They want to stoke the suspicion without getting into the veracity of the state of Hawaii’s records.
Conway kept hinting that he was open to reason if only Obama would provide the original b/c. Failure to provide was some type of smoking gun, blahblahblah. This argument is a blatant lie; they demanded Obama’s b/c in 2008 and Obama posted the sucker on the internet for everyone to see. There is no doubt they would pounce on any perceived irregularity on the original document to continue their line of inquiry. It will never end.
That said, I believe Obama wants this issue to stay in the public sphere; it makes his opponents look like absolute loons. Better to keep this fake scandal alive than deal with new fabrication.
licensed to kill time
BOB is so bummed that he doesn’t get to touch ‘Barry’s’ big black birth certificate.
Nellcote
So the Birthers will never be satisfied but what will it take for the msm to stop calling it controversial?
Tonal Crow
OT: Another Republican is under investigation for grifting. No one could have anticipated….
DJShay
Why hasn’t anyone asked for McCain’s “Certificate of Live Birth”? Why isn’t every candidate asked this? Whoever the the GOP nominee is in 2012, we should ALL make a HUGE stink over requiring them to produce their longform certificate.
stuckinred
@Tonal Crow: That’s not all that needs to be probed if you know what I mean.
4tehlulz
Birtherism and antisemitic dogwhistle are two great tastes that tastes great together.
ant
The birther movement was founded to give voice to folks that think only whites are Americans.
Quite a few of em out there, it seems. also, too.
Tonal Crow
@DJShay:
Because he’s a Republican. Next question?
Bruce (formerly Steve S.)
Not sure if this will happen, but one thing already has; that Birtherism is equivalent to Trutherism. This is a false equivalence that is already embraced by the respectable.
jurassicpork
If Christine O’Donnell teaches us anything, it’s that Republicans are never too stupid to be crooked or obscenely lucky.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@DJShay:
My money’s on FDL (I’m not a huge Greenwald fan, but I don’t think he’d go this far. If anything, he’d fight it). In fact, I’d say it’s even money between FDL or Fred Hiatt giving some cretin space between Broder and Cohen to wank about this. Actually I wouldn’t put an “Obama must put these rumors to rest” column past either Broder or Cohen.
Ash Can
I have to hand it to whomever is doing this “Brick Oven Bill” schtick; it’s a perfect distillation of the batshit lunacy that is birtherism.
Mnemosyne
@Nellcote:
I sometimes wonder if that’s part of the issue: you have a lot of gullible folks who haven’t had to get a copy of their birth certificate in a long time and don’t know what the modern ones look like, so this strange computer-printed thing with less information is somehow “suspicious.”
guster
@Brick Oven Bill: If it’s true that Ringtone and Snappy-Z actually touched a physical copy of Document Theta, I think that really _is_ something that should be explained.
guster
@Tonal Crow: Also, he was born dead.
Pat
What do I think? How about every living past president and every wanna be future president get in line with “all their birth documents” and we can have a big show and tell day.
Brick Oven Bill
It is both disconcerting and comforting to realize how stupid these people think we are. From the Factcheck web-site linked to above:
Recently FactCheck representatives got a chance to spend some time with the birth certificate, and we can attest to the fact that it is real and three-dimensional and resides at the Obama headquarters in Chicago. We can assure readers that the certificate does bear a raised seal, and that it’s stamped on the back by Hawaii state registrar Alvin T. Onaka (who uses a signature stamp rather than signing individual birth certificates). We even brought home a few photographs.
The thing that sucks about a bad fake is that, like a bell, it cannot be un-rung.
Licensed to kill time refers to the size of Obama’s birth certificate. I present:
Exhibit ‘D’.
Teabaggers do not, can not, sit like this, at least while smiling.
Bruce (formerly Steve S.)
@DJShay:
Here is your answer.
Cain
@Mnemosyne:
In fact some may question that perhaps the date of when Hawaii became state may have moved in order to accommodate the birth of Obama in preparation for his ascendancy as President.
cain
kommrade reproductive vigor
@DJShay: That would be a hoot. “I’m sorry, according to the clearly stated articles of birtherism we need the original long form vault copy. Oh, the state where you were governor won’t give it to you? Suuure buddy.”
Villago Delenda Est
The bottom line in all of this, and no one dares to mention it, is that the President is near.
That’s what it’s all about.
Birthers=Idiots^2
I would really like to know what the hell the moron who posted this entry really thinks are “legitimate questions”.
Nellcote
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I don’t remember his name but check out the WaPoo “religion” section sometime.
hueyplong
The fact that you can’t tell whether Brick Oven Bill is a parody of a birther or the real thing is sort of the point.
Gotta say I enjoy the “subject to blackmail” part (the old line used on gays). I wonder what a blackmailer would do, threaten to put the “birth” issue into the media?
It’s the inverse of Dr Strangelove questioning the wisdom of keeping the Doomsday Machine deterrent a secret.
LikeableInMyOwnWay
krv at 73 has it right. The original certificate belongs to the state and only the state can decide what access anyone else can have to that certificate. I seriously doubt that the state is going to allow it off their property. That means that the only representation that can be allowed off state property is going to be a certified copy.
The whole birther scheme is built around this concept, for the very reason that no “proof” can ever be forthcoming. Evidence can be forthcoming, but that isn’t proof, so the “controversy” is kept alive. It is kept alive for the purpose of fooling the rubes, nothing more. Reasonable and intelligent people won’t be affected much, but they are not the core of the base over there.
This is pretty much the same tactics that drove the Vince Foster Was Murdered scheme. No proof could ever be forthcoming one way or the other, at least none acceptable to the truly skeptical. So the question could be kept alive indefinitely. A base was fooled and the thing served its purpose.
The real outrage here is that respectable commentators devote any time or attention to the nonsense at all. Unfortunately their ranks are filled with cowards and SomeSayers and they will never let it go.
So there its, blog fodder for six more years. Enjoy.
Comrade Colette Collaboratrice
I know the State of Hawaii has relatively new legislation that allows the Dept. of Health to ignore abusive/repetitive requests for birth records, but I wonder if there is any way they can increase the fee for multiple or repetitive requests enough that they could at least get a decent revenue stream out of this bullshit. It’s got to be costing the State more than ten bucks a pop to deal with these assholes.
Old Dan and Little Ann
Bob Lonsberry is a fucking ass clown. I don’t think I have listened to him for more than 30 seconds before hurriedly changing the channel.
While working as a talk show host for WHAM-Rochester in late 2003, Lonsberry made comments about William A. Johnson, Jr., the black then-mayor of Rochester, over background chimpanzee sounds.
MikeJ
@Nellcote: I got a copy of my birth certificate. A plastic card, much like a credit card. Raised letters and numbers for transferring carbons, like they used to do with credit cards.
No problem getting a passport with it.
Chad N Freude
@Mnemosyne: Absence of evidence is proof of conspiracy because the conspirators are suppressing it. Evidence is proof of conspiracy because it is put out by the conspirators.
This is M.C. Escher logic.
Sasha
“It is possible that Obama conspired his way to the precipice of the world’s biggest job, involving a vast network of people and government agencies over decades of lies. Anything’s possible. But step back and look at the overwhelming evidence to the contrary and your sense of what’s reasonable has to take over.” — PoliFact
Reason has squat all to do with birtherism. It’s part and parcel with Beck’s ramblings of how only he can see the truth. Being part of an elect who really knows what’s going on has been catnip for this crowd back when birthers were still called Birchers.
There continues to remain a certain segment of American society who simply cannot accept that a skinny black dude named Barack Hussein Obama won the Presidency fair and square (without any the doubts of legitimacy, like those that shadowed the 2000 campaign for instance), and they continue to grasp at any straw that would strike that result down and reset reality to something they would consider acceptable. To them I would simply say this:
Grow up.
Chyron HR
@Brick Oven Bill:
A revelation to chill the blood, indeed. Was this insidious plot concocted by Saul Alinsky or does it date back to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion?
hueyplong
“Factcheck just happens to be owned by George Soros.”
Clearly we’ll only be safe when all information comes from entities owned by NewsCorp.
LikeableInMyOwnWay
In this case, it is the MumboJumbo of the Elders of Kenya(tm).
licensed to kill time
BOB has a strange fascination with men’s crotches and teabags. How closely he inspects the evidence!
kittypat
My husband wrote down his ex-girl friend’s birthday as mine on our twin’s birth certificates…. does this mean I’m not their mother?
Comrade Colette Collaboratrice
Factcheck is funded by the Annenberg Foundation. Its alleged (and non-existent) link to Soros is a well-known and thoroughly debunked piece of anti-Obama idiocy.
Michael
@Pat:
And transcripts – I’ve seen them repeat over and over again that every prior candidate had to fork over school records, passport apps, college transcripts, marriage licenses, insurance applications, etc.
Thing is, to be an old white Southerner (mostly, although quite a few old white yankees are shit stupid too) is to believe anything, no matter how ridiculous, so long as it somehow supports your worldview.
Tonal Crow
@Chyron HR: Hey, you forgot Roger Baldwin and the Wobblies!
Tonal Crow
@hueyplong: Why is Rupert Murdoch hiding NewsCorp’s long-form birth certificate?
Jules
These people will NEVER be happy.
Never.
Once they get what they have asked for they will move the bar.
Because it is all about the fact that the man in the is a negro.
That is it.
I’d like to know why can’t we just pat the crazy people on the head and then ignore them?
LikeableInMyOwnWay
@kittypat:
Yes.
Seriously though, a birth certificate is not proof of much of anything … anyone who has been through a tough probate fight knows this. As one grizzled lawyer probate lawyer told me, anybody can show up at a hospital with a woman and claim to be the father of a child, as long as the mother goes along with the ruse … if she is competent and/or alive after the birth. If not, then … do the math. But the paper is just about useless as legal proof of anything at all. Why our processes give it so much credence in its current form is a wonder.
Courts nowadays want affidavits of acknowledgement of paternity, or DNA tests … something more substantial than a birth certificate. How do we really know that Obama’s father wasn’t Little Black Sambo?
Michael
Leave it to Bob.
So anybody can go rooting around in anybody’s transcripts for any reason?
How does that square with FERPA?
Jules
Obama was certified at some point by some Federal something that certifies that candidates meet all the requirements to be President.
Stop.
That is all anyone needs to know.
Ever.
BC
@MikeJ: They think the “true” birth certificate is the one the hospital gives you, the one that has the child’s footprint on it and the doctor’s signature. The fact that this document states that it is NOT a true and valid birth certificate just goes over their heads. This is the document they want to see, dammit! Chances are that Obama does not have this document because his mother lost it at some point after he was born.
DJShay
@kommrade reproductive vigor: I’m deadly serious about this. Once we know who the GOP nominee is, I’m gonna start a website demanding to see transcripts, longform birth certificates, etc. And I sincerely hope that others join me. Because if Obama has to do it, then so should EVERY candidate.
Brick Oven Bill
/teleprompter off/
Barack Obama was, ummmm, Chairman of the Board of the Annenberg Challenge, um, serving with, uhhh, Bill Ayres. Sooo, there, is, duhhh, no no nothing wrong with having Annenberg be the, uhhhhh, sole media outlet allowed to, uh, uh, touch Barry’s birth certificate.
Stop thinking stupidly.
/teleprompter on/
TOP123
@Villago Delenda Est: This has been the best way to put it yet.
My question, is, once again, what is it with the refusal to call one’s political opponents by their names? Is there a certain frisson a right winger gets calling the President of the United States ‘Barry’? Sure, maybe some don’t want to show respect and offer acknowledgment of adult status to certain people, ahem, (see: ‘boy, n.’), but it seems also of a piece with the use of ‘Democrat Party’. Just pure joy in being contrary?
peach flavored shampoo
Questions? Such as? Such beautiful strawmen you construct.
kommrade reproductive vigor
The state can’t. It’s obvious to you, me and single-celled organisms living in ditch water why we don’t want the state let such a document out of its control, but the birfers aren’t that smart.
Also, I’m stealing Somesayers.
LikeableInMyOwnWay
@Brick Oven Bill:
Absolutely right, FakeBOB.
The thing is not genuine until it is certified by the Grand Vizier of the Ku Klux Klan, in most states.
Also, your neighbor said your pizza tastes like shit.
Sasha
So I guess this explains why Bush had people constantly pestering him on whether GHWB was actually his father or Barbara his mother and demanded proof of paternity/maternity — otherwise, he might be beholden to blackmail by banking interests, the military industrial complex, Cheney, and who-knows-who-else.
Michael
@Brick Oven Bill:
You’re either brilliant parody or a stupid fuck, so I’ll self moderate my rage-induced blood pressure by pretending that you’re parody.
No, “Barry” isn’t going to send his certified copy of his birth certificate to conservative activists, as they’re lying, mendacious, criminal douchebags who will perpetrate harm with it.
And do you understand that Annenberg has many different arms, and was a longtime GOP functionary? That the challenge is not tied operationally to factcheck?
LikeableInMyOwnWay
@kommrade reproductive vigor:
Of course, for $39.95 we can go online and order a genuine Chain of Custody.
Just Some Fuckhead
How do we know Hawaii is a United State? Has anyone seen their certificate of UnitedStatedness? I’m not talking about the one the Hawaiian government would produce if asked. I’m taking about The Real One, The Vault Copy generated when Jesus created the United States.
LikeableInMyOwnWay
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Only if certified by descendants of King Kamehameha and/or Don Ho.
Sasha
@TOP123:
It’s a way to act disrespectful or superior without being easily called out as a dick.
But it’s Grade-A, passive-aggressive dickishness.
Mnemosyne
@LikeableInMyOwnWay:
It’s proof that one was actually born when and where one says one was. It’s not proof of anything else, though.
LikeableInMyOwnWay
@Mnemosyne:
Not really. It’s evidence, not proof, of the existence of the birth. Proving that you are the person named on the certificate is another matter. I know, because I have been in that situation.
Sasha
Like I’ve said before, Obama should not give in to birther requests. Like any good conservative should know, it’s dangerous to cave to the demands of extremists . . .
Tonal Crow
@Just Some Fuckhead: I wanna see Jesus’s long-form birth certificate. No one has produced it yet, despite 2,000 years of requests. Can it be that it doesn’t…naw!
Tim I
@Suffern ACE: On the plus side, he did get an ‘A’ in terrorism.
Dr. Psycho
@Sasha: It is a long-standing right-wing tradition. Their grandfathers called FDR “Rosenfeld”. Their fathers called LBJ “Jonsonovich”.
I am enjoying how they tie themselves in knots trying to make “Barack Hussein Obama” sound any more foreign and unAmerican. It is driving them crazy that that’s really his name, and he’s the lawfully-elected President of the United States. Hee hee.
Mnemosyne
@LikeableInMyOwnWay:
True. To be more specific, it’s proof that a baby was born on said date in said place, but it doesn’t necessarily prove that the person presenting the birth certificate is the same person.
kommrade reproductive vigor
@DJShay: I’m in. So far as I’m concerned anyone who announces they’re going to run is fair game.
Chyron HR
@Brick Oven Bill:
Oh! The AnnenBERG Challenge. Obviously an institution in cahoots with George Soros and the “bankers”, wink wink.
Tonal Crow
@Mnemosyne: It’s *evidence* that a baby was born at a certain time and place. Evidence, not proof.
Mnemosyne
@Tonal Crow:
Yes, yes, lawyer-person. Whatever. ;-)
Tim I
@TOP123: Assholes really need to act like assholes.
Think back to the asshole bully in 4th Grade. These guys are the same fucks, just older, but not more mature.
LikeableInMyOwnWay
@Mnemosyne:
You haven’t lived until you have stood in court and had your siblings challenge your identity and your existence in order to screw you out of your share of a trust. And then had one of the lawyers in the proceeding, who wrote the book, literally, used as the ubiquitous reference for that state’s court procedures, state that your birth certificate is proof of nothing. And not be challenged.
You will think you have descended into Hell, where up is down and good is evil and all the people in charge are tiny little munchkins with pointy hats.
And the judge is a frog.
LikeableInMyOwnWay
@Chyron HR:
Bill forgets the the Titanic sank soon after striking a large Annenberg.
cckids
@Comrade Colette Collaboratrice: In one of the articles out this week referencing the new governor, he mentioned that it takes a state employee AT LEAST two hours a day, every day, to deal with this BS. That adds up. And, of course, you’ve got the nutjobs creating fake names, emails, etc, to get around the no duplicate request law.
As my daughter is wont to say, “these people need an actual problem in their lives.”
TOP123
@Michael:
Well said, and on the assumption that BOB is all parody, I will provide this short list purely for everyone’s use if the wingnut relative happens to bring up their teleprompter fixation over what remains of the holidays:
@Brick Oven Bill:
This list of links: c. twenty seconds and Google Images:
http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/assets_c/2008/05/Bush%20on%20Abe%20Lincoln%20Mission%20Accomplished%20small-thumb-425×278.jpg
http://bastardlogic.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/83389137.jpg
http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2004/10/06/1097069659_7708.jpg
http://s-ak.buzzfed.com/static/imagebuzz/web02/2009/3/19/15/bush-with-dual-teleprompters-14791-1237490634-0.jpg
http://bagnewsnotes.typepad.com/bagnews/images/McCain-Teleprompter.jpg
Didn’t use anything past the eleventh hit. Chose five for aesthetic purposes. Yawn.
kittypat
@LikeableInMyOwnWay:
That was an easy out, from now on I’m going to blame her for everything they do wrong.
Michael
@LikeableInMyOwnWay:
Jesus, that had to be awful in ways I can’t even fathom.
Brachiator
It’s freaking nonsense of course. But it has become the topic of the day. If I believed in conspiracies, I would say that conservative talk shows have been instructed to milk this bullshit specifically because Obama is vacationing in Hawaii, and the rightwing agenda is to keep negative shit about Obama swirling all the time. This has been made more necessary now that Obama has topped some “most admired” polls.
A couple or talk radio shows here in Southern California milked birtherism for all it was worth yesterday. The hosts made the totally false claim that every previous president had showed his birth certificate (to whom?, I kept wondering).
They were also hitting on the point that since Real Amurikins(tm) have to show proof of birth to get a job, Obama should have to bring his forward.
Aside from being nuts, we have a mob creating an extra-constitutional requirement for proving that a person can run for president. This seems like a small thing, but shit like this is never good.
And die-hard birthers will insist that any document brought forward is a forgery.
LikeableInMyOwnWay
@kittypat:
I assume that your husband now has the correct date tattooed on the palm of his hand …..
LikeableInMyOwnWay
@Michael:
Well it was. Only a few days before I had offered to let my siblings buy me off for half of my share. They refused and said “See you in court.”
Welp …. it was long and fierce battle, but I won. So I had the last laugh. But it was quite a ride.
Sasha
@Dr. Psycho:
The best they can come up with is to always use his middle name and ALWAYS WRITE IT IN CAPS (just so you’ll notice).
Sucks to be them …
Tim I
@kittypat: Did you kick his ass?
hueyplong
“It is a long-standing right-wing tradition. Their grandfathers called FDR “Rosenfeld”.”
That’s what the Nazis called him. Oops, my bad, that’s your point.
Just Some Fuckhead
Godwinned in 184 – a new record!
Bruce (formerly Steve S.)
@Tonal Crow:
Right here.
Mnemosyne
@LikeableInMyOwnWay:
I think the word “Kafkaesque” is used way too often, but I can’t think of a more appropriate adjective for that experience. People will do really weird shit for money.
Brachiator
@LikeableInMyOwnWay:
I can relate to this. I was left a share of property and some relatives I (fortunately) barely knew tried to do that challenge thing. I had an attorney call and chat. He asked what I did for a living and I responded, “I spend a good chunk of time dealing with detailed tax questions about trusts and fiduciary tax returns.” Things kinda worked out in my favor when the dust settled.
Sasha
The opening line of Obama’s Conservapedia entry pretty much exemplifies the Right’s inability to accept a reality they don’t want:
I’m quite certain that no other President’s entry has the qualifier “said to have been born”.
Tim I
@Brick Oven Bill:
Progressive racism is such a refreshing change.
Mnemosyne
@Brachiator:
IIRC, it’s not false — every presidential and vice presidential candidate gets a thorough background check. I remember it came up in one of the recent books about the Bush administration that it should have been a bigger deal that Cheney managed to sidestep the background check (which he probably did because his health was so compromised).
The false part is the radio hosts assuming that if the background check didn’t show that Obama is not a US citizen, it must not have happened, because of course it’s impossible for him to have passed it if their conspiracy theory is going to be true. So they have to deny that the background check happened rather than admit that it happened and it didn’t give the result they wanted.
LikeableInMyOwnWay
@Mnemosyne:
They sure will. These folks even invoked an 18th century law which made the “illegitimate issue” of a person ineligible to participate in the distribution of a trust. Even thought this law had long ago been made moot by modern law, they went to the trouble to prove that my parents had not been legally married on the day I was born, and argued that the old law somehow or other applied to the trust …..
The judge seemed fascinated by this storyline, but it was explained to me later that he was bemused and wanted to see how far my adversaries would go with the assertion. Then he ruled against them.
So, yeah, I’m a bastard. And proud of it.
Heh.
4tehlulz
@Sasha: He is not of woman born. He was secretly grown in a vat on a Kenya compound leased to the COMINTERN by the Rothschilds.
Ed Drone
B.O.B. mistakes what document the folks he disparages “were allowed to touch.” Since the document in question was in Obama’s possession in Chicago, it could only have been the ‘Certificate of Live Birth’ posted on the Internet by the campaign. So there’s not much of a conspiracy there, is there?
In the mention above of David Irving led me to the Wikipedia article on Holocaust Denial, and the term “negationism,” which I think fits the John Birth Society* to a “T”.
And I, too, think Obama won’t ‘provide the documents’ simply to keep the crazy alive, and that keeps the GOP connected to the nuts. Not that he needs to do that, as the GOP has accepted, surrendered to, joined, absorbed, championed, and cloned the zombie-lie crazies of the world, in a cynical program of win-at-all-costs politicization of everything, and so far, it hasn’t cost them nearly enough.
ED
“*John Birth Society” coined by a commenter here on BJ.
LikeableInMyOwnWay
Apparently George Washington was undocumented.
Mnemosyne
@LikeableInMyOwnWay:
I was going to joke that you were lucky they didn’t hire a hit man to try and get your share that way but, Jaysus, I don’t know how much of a joke it would be.
LikeableInMyOwnWay
@Mnemosyne:
I wouldn’t put it past them. To put a ribbon around the story, they claimed to have been chagrined and confused because their father had never told them of my existence. To this day I am not sure they have gotten over it.
Brachiator
@Mnemosyne: RE: The hosts made the totally false claim that every previous president had showed his birth certificate (to whom?, I kept wondering).
Since the hosts said every president, I wondered who George Washington showed his birth certificate to.
But these nutcases never brought up the issue of background checks or any facts or background. They were flying by the seat of their pants using “common sense” arguments.
Had they mentioned the stuff you brought up, I might have said, “well, OK.” But they also put on caller after caller who believed or were certain that Obama was not born in the United States. This is what made the whole thing obnoxious.
But you hit the nail on the head that they were wandering into conspiracy theory land since they were only looking for stuff that reinforced their beliefs, and studiously ignored facts, and reality. And of course, nobody on any of these shows has raised the issue of background checks or how they are conducted, or invited any knowledgeable guest to talk about it.
And unsurprisingly, they kept hitting the point that it was up to Obama to satisfy them and … somebody … by bringing forth his birth records.
Tonal Crow
@LikeableInMyOwnWay:
Washington presumably (!) falls within the “or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution” clause of Art.II s.1 cl.5. ‘Course, can anyone really prove that he was a citizen?
Sasha
@4tehlulz:
Anyone name MacBeth had better watch his step around him.
Tim I
@Brick Oven Bill:
Progressive racism is such a refreshing change.@Brick Oven Bill: are you really a racist fuckhead, or do you just play one on the internets.
LikeableInMyOwnWay
After a few years, I think we have to say, he really is a racist fuckhead. Or a very good spoof of a racist fuckhead. Probably the former.
agrippa
Gullible.
I figured out a long time ago that there are people in this world who will believe anything.
And, that there are cynical people who will try to see to it that the gullible are, in fact, deceived.
I think that this is what we have here.
Sab
Eh, Bob Lonsberry is like a poor man’s Ned Flanders (h/t to Brother Wease for the comparison), except with occasional racism and silly Mormonism. He comes across as much more of a wingnut on his website than you would expect based on his on-air persona. He’s your typical local right-wing radio talker. Having moved from the Flower City to Killadelphia, I found they have one down here, too: Dom Giordano. Similar BS, different market, except Dom likes to give Cardinal Rigali the occasional rusty trombone.
As for the whole birth cert “issue”, I mean c’mon already! Some people just can’t seem to come to terms with the fact that a black Democrat became President of their country. How dare he!
smith
First off, Bob Lonsberry needs to STFU and should concentrate more on his failed four marriages and trying to get another sucker mail-order bride to marry him then concerning himself with things that are beyond his intellect. Lonsberry was just fired from his Utah gig, why won’t WHAM give us upstate New Yorkers the same relief?
As for the birth certificate, nothing will ever be good enough for the birthers. If they get the “vault copy” and it says Obama was born in Hawaii they will just claim it is a fake or a forgery. There could be video evidence of Obama being born in an American hospital and they would claim the footage was doctored.
kommrade reproductive vigor
@Sasha: Or McCain.
Mnemosyne
@Brachiator:
You’d think that “common sense” would lead them to realize that, since it’s true that no one gets to be president these days without a background check, that must mean that Obama passed the check, not that one wasn’t done.
At this point, complete and total ignorance of how the modern world works is the only way to maintain birther beliefs.
wenchacha
Lonsberry blows donkey dicks.
Is the fact that Obama’s mom is a US citizen not enough? Or are they still harping on her being minor, renouncing her citizenship while consorting with non-white America-haters or what?
Isn’t it enough that the Prez is an anchor baby?
Brachiator
@Mnemosyne:
But again, none of this has anything to do with common sense, or facts or reality, and everything to do with the psychological discomfort, the fear and anxiety, that typically lies behind conspiracy theories.
In between endless demands for Obama to do the right thing and “prove” he was born here, the hosts indulged callers who needed to make strange, disconnected cracks about Obama’s race. For example, that he is listed as “white” on his birth certificate, which would have dashed Obama’s running as potentially the first black president, even though Obama himself never asked people to vote for him because of his race. Other callers added crap that Obama was not only foreign, but elitist and (and I don’t get this at all) feminine.
In short, the segment consisted of a lot of white males (I don’t recall any women callers) psychologically ducking and dodging because they cannot accept a black man as their president. But it’s not their fault. Oh, no. It’s Obama’s fault. Because he wasn’t really born here or refuses to satisfy their childish, pointless demands that he prove his legitimacy to them.
Just Some Fuckhead
@LikeableInMyOwnWay:
There’s a surprise.
t1
I’m not a birther. I took 3 weeks off of my job in California and worked on the Obama campaign in Nevada.
That said …
I really don’t understand why Obama has not authorized release of a copy of the actual birth certificate.
Yes, I understand that the Governor of Hawaii says that the Hawaii sec’y of state has examined the original birth certificate that is on file and states that the computer print out of the birth certificate is accurate. I understand that.
But, really, WTF? There is an original birth certificate. It is on file in Hawaii. A copy of it has not been released. What has been released is a certified computer print-out of certain (not all) information contained in the original birth certificate.
I do not doubt that Obama was born in Hawaii. And, yes, I am certain that even if a copy of the original is released and if Fox news gets to sit down at a desk in the Hawaii secretary of state’s office and view the actual certificate that the racist, birther assholes will find something else to yammer on about. Buy why does Obama continue to make it so easy for them?
maus
@t1:
The only answer I can think of at this point is that nothing would ever be good enough for a conspiracist. Goalpost-shifting, etc.
Mnemosyne
@t1:
I have to admit, I find it funny an official copy of his birth certificate, the newspapers that published the original birth announcement, and the testimony of people who knew directly of his birth because they lived in Hawaii still aren’t good enough for you.
Of course, that’s the point — none of the above evidence is good enough for the birthers, because no evidence will ever be enough. Why is the president supposed to indulge a bunch of wackos who refuse to accept the mounds of evidence in front of them?
I do find it fascinating that you’ve bought into their whole “if there’s smoke, there’s fire” way of thinking and now you want to see evidence far beyond what any other public official has ever had to provide just in case the fucking insane people are somehow right.
Do you believe that Queen Elizabeth is running drugs like the LaRouchies say? After all, she’s never even addressed their claim, much less offered proof, so doesn’t that doubt always remain in your mind that maybe they’re right?
Someone here is making it easy for the birthers to continue to operate, and it’s not the president.
LikeableInMyOwnWay
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Eat your heart out.
I’m not Just Some Bastard. I proved my status in court.
The Sheriff's A Ni-
@t1:
FTFY.
PurpleGirl
@t1: Because it’s not up to him. It’s state law in Hawaii (and everywhere else) that certain documents are given out by the state in a certain way and that’s that. He asked the state for a certificate, they gave him what they give everyone. Period. The former governor probably went beyond the rules to have the Health commissioner (or whoever) say that they saw the original and the computer-generated form has the relevant information.
They can’t accept a black man as president. No, Ands, Ifs or Buts. That’s it.
Brachiator
@t1:
Release it to whom?
To prove what?
And which president or presidential candidate before Obama released his (or her) birth certificate to … anybody?
t1
PurpleGirl – Is that so? I thought that under Hawaii state law that the original could be copied if Obama gave permission. I could be wrong about that.
Brachiator – I had thought that people could give permission for their origial birth certificate to copied. Were I him, I’d give that permission and let anyone who wanted a copy get a copy. But Purple Girl says that’s not legal in HI, so moot if so. And no others haven’t had to do this, but the circumstances of his parentage and birth are different than previous presidential candidates. Legally it’s pointless since he’s president, of course.
Oh, and the rest of you like The Sheriff and Mnemosyne can go fuck yourself. If you think that anyone who doesn’t share your precise views is a batshit birther, then you might want to ask yourself if you’re spending a little too much time being a keyboard warrior.
danimal
Brachiator – sounds like you stuck around long after I threw my car radio out onto the freeway yesterday. I kept waiting for a birther argument that remotely made sense in the real world, but was unfulfilled. Public service announcement: Limit your intake of AM talk radio or you run the risk of rage and/or excessively high blood pressure.
t1 –
Obama wants them focused on this stupid crap. Birtherism is God’s gift to Obama. They instantly discredit themselves, and conservative critiques of Obama, with most Thinking-Americans. Thinking-Americans are a crucial voting block, small in numbers but absolutely vital to winning elections.
t1
danimal
That actually makes the most sense of any explanation I have seen. Sort of how Obama must dream at night of Palin getting the nomination in 2012.
Mnemosyne
@t1:
If you want to try and make up your own facts without knowing what you’re talking about, be my guest, but don’t expect people to not call you on it.
There is absolutely nothing to the claims by the birthers. Nothing. Nada. Zero. Zip. There are mounds of evidence to the contrary. And yet you think that the president should have to take extra steps demanded of no other president to somehow “prove” to these insane people that he really was born here? He’d have about the same success as trying to convince a schizophrenic that the CIA isn’t really monitoring their thoughts.
Brachiator
@t1:
Really?
Do tell.
t1
Mnemosyne and Brachiator- like I said, you can go fuck yourself.
Mnemosyne
@t1:
I don’t blame you — if I’d fallen for the crazy stories of the birthers and then was presented with the actual facts, I’d be pretty embarrassed, too.
Original Lee
@4tehlulz: OoO Good one! I think you have a good chance of winning the thread.
agrippa
@t1:
chill out dude.
agrippa
The birth certificate that has been provided is the birth certificate. No further proof is needed.
If someone finds it expedient to disbelieve, that is their problem.
There are people who will, in fact, believe anything.
General Stuck
@t1:
Doing what you ask would constitute an act of contrition to insanity. And would only lead to more insanity of something else demanded, that has nothing to do with anything, and in the case of the BC, what has been provided has sufficed for every other president to reach the legal bar to run for and serve as president of this country. Once Obama gives in to such a thing, his opponents begin to isolate him like predators isolating a prey away from the herd. It is all psychological warfare, of a sort. And was some of the biggest mistakes Bill Clinton made giving in to it, believing it would stop. It will not stop, absolutely, until they have run BO out of the White House, or have him running in circles trying to please their nutty demands, with little time left for presidenting. Fuck em. Let em appear as the petty dem president hunters they are
t1
Agrippa
I don’t think that’s correct. I think that what has been provided is a computer generated copy from a database. My understanding is that there is an actual, original birth certificate (the created and filed by the hospital or whoever) sitting in the archives in Hawaii.
The Hawaii Sec’y of State or Registrar or whatever stated that they had viewed the actual, original birth certificate and that the computer generated copy contained accurate information.
Again, I haven’t spent a lot of time on this and that is just my understanding and if I am factually wrong, I’d appreciate knowing how.
Agreed. There is certainly no legal obligation that Obama provide further proof. My point was that it would be so easy to provide it, why hasn’t he? (But this understanding was based on the perhaps incorrect belief that Obama could allow release of a copy of the original, which may not be correct according to the poster above.)
Danimal may be right and that Obama has made a tactical decision not to release the original since that creates a wedge between most people and the nutty birthers. That is at least a plausible explanation…
PurpleGirl
t1: I am not a lawyer and do not know Hawaiian law in depth. But I do not remember any lawyer over the last two years saying President Obama could give permission to release a copy of the hospital/state record. He or someone from his campaign staff contacted the state agency and requested a certificate. The state agency sent them what they sent them. That should be enough for us. There is no reason for more to be asked for from him. His mother was a citizen, He is therefore a citizen.
People have debated this issue and the process of getting a birth certificate for 2 or so years now. It is a state matter. They send out what they send out. We have to accept that. And most people probably do not remember or have a paper from the hospital or doctor about the registration of their birth. Again, if you call the city or state agency in charge of records they send you what they currently send out. And his mother was a citizen, that’s all we need to know.
t1
Purple – I don’t have a source but I believe I read that HI law allowed release if a “person with a legitimate interest” requested it – meaning a parent or the child.
I agree that the citizenship of the parent is probably enough to establish citizenship, regardless of the location of birth. (I don’t think the law is crystal clear on this, though.)
Like I said, _I_ don’t have any doubts myself about Obama’s citizenship – I just don’t understand the decision of not releasing copies of the original … assuming that is possible, etc.
PurpleGirl
@t1: I don’t have a source but I believe I read that HI law allowed release if a “person with a legitimate interest” requested it – meaning a parent or the child.
That is probably equivalent to the line on the order form for getting a NYC certified copy which asks why you want it, because they do not want to release the certified copy to just any one.
t1
Yes, I am sure that there is a certain percentage of people who would continue with the birther rantings even if sweet jeebus appeared and notarized the original BC in their presence. Agreed.
Actually, I don’t recall any other presidential candidate ever having to produce anything related to his BC. In that way Obama has done more than anyone ever has. But why, in attempting to squash all of this idiotic talk, did he ever do anything less than have his original BC produced? It just seems like a clumsy half measure that allowed the yammering to continue.
I mean, PR 101 says that you get out in front of any potential problems and kill the story decisively, right?
Danimal seems to think this a conscious strategy. Maybe it is. But I remember back when this debate was really raging and I think it was a third party who went to the newspaper archives and found birth announcements, not the Obama campaign. I was surprised that the campaign which was so well organized and executed didn’t have somebody doing that right away. (I mean, this campaign had some guy from my neighborhood knock on my door _twice_ to make sure that knew where my polling place was …)
General Stuck
@t1:
There is no story. It is manufactured bullshit meant to distract, kind of like what you are doing in this thread. PR 101 says also that when you opponent is acting like a fool, don’t get in their way. Nobody cares about this so called story, but some of the nuttiest wingnuts in the country, and apparently you. Don’t waste our time with this garbage, other than to mock the fools who keep pushing it.
t1
I see that you, like a couple of other posters, are still trying really, really hard to win the 2008 election. Sorry being a little too meta for you to understand.
Mnemosyne
@t1:
You mean like by releasing a copy of your legal birth certificate to the media? Or having state officials swear that the facts on the certificate were correct — twice?
They did address it. Promptly. The fact that insane people immediately moved the goalposts and demanded a document that no one else has to produce is not the fault of the Obama campaign staff.
LikeableInMyOwnWay
@agrippa:
Worse than that. There are people who will post anything.
Ahem t1 ahem.
agrippa
@t1:
No further prrof is needed. full stop.
what you think is ‘needed is irrelevant and immaterial. always has been all ways will be.
pattonbt
@t1:
“Sorry being a little too meta for you to understand.”
Really??
You’re an idiot. The people questioning Obama’s birth / citizenship / legitimacy are not people who are doing so for serious, reputable reasons. Every required agency has said “Obama’s legit”. That’s it. Done. Those who don’t accept that can not be swayed.
The people who push for more are not doing so for any other reason than to attempt to discredit Obama – and discredit in any way. Anything that puts a question mark on him (birth, policy, college, etc.), no matter how small, is another piece they add to the “see!!, we told you he was the worstest evah!!” column.
And as has been pointed out over and over and over and over and over and over, there is nothing, nothing Obama can deliver that will cease this meme.
You seem to be the one lost on the “meta” side of this argument. If Obama shows his “vault copy” BC (Jesus I feel like an idiot even writing “vault copy” like it is an actual legal thing), the goal posts will just move to his father, or his mother’s second husband and his time in Indonesia.
So get it through your thick skull and learn to deal with it – the birthers will exist forever. Nothing can satisfy them. Nothing will stop them. To them, Obama is foreign, and they know and can fell it and that is all that is important. They will just move to next inane excuse.
They do this because Obama has a funny name and non-traditional background (compared to the tea-folks) which makes it easier to see him as “the other” and “less American” than “us”. End of story.
When every agency required to test citizenship says “good to go” then the person is fucking good to go. End of story. The fact that haters want to try and fight that is something that is out of Obama’s hands and the best way for him to deal with it is laugh and mock, or even better, which he is doing, ignore.
So grow up idiot.
Older
I have read it all, and it was difficult, not to say disgusting. I have, however, what may be a useful perspective.
I was born in 1938. My oldest child was born in 1959. My youngest child was born in 1988. I have copies of my own birth certificate, my children’s of course, and that of my great-aunt who was born in the 1880’s (I don’t recall the exact date).
My great-aunt’s birth certificate is a letter signed by a doctor stating that he was present at the birth of a female child, the offspring of So-and-so and Such-and-such, his wife.
My birth certificate is a questionnaire, filled in by the doctor who presided at my birth. It includes the names of both of my parents, their occupations, my birth order and whether I was one of a multiple birth, and some other demographic data. When I asked for a copy years ago, I received a notarized photocopy of this questionnaire.
Same with my oldest child; the birth certificate I have in my file is a notarized copy of a similar questionnaire. The questionnaire undoubtedly exists for my youngest child, but when I asked for a copy, I got a “certificate of live birth” — with the kind of decorative border that other “certificates” have.
Moreover, when one of my older children needed a copy of his birth certificate recently, what he received was a “certificate of live birth”. I have a notarized copy of the questionnaire in my file, but he can’t get a notarized one from the state now. Neither could I get another copy of my own birth questionnaire/certificate. I could only get a “certificate of live birth”.
It would appear that a number of the states have gone over to this practice. The president is younger than my oldest children, and it’s possible that he was born after Hawaii no longer sent out copies of the questionnaire form of birth certificate. But there wouldn’t be anything on the “long form” that would “prove” he was or wasn’t a citizen that wouldn’t be on his “certificate of live birth” also.
And note that nobody has the “original” but the state — otherwise they could not have sent my uncle a photocopy of my great-aunt’s birth certificate when she died. The state had it, and they still have it. There’s no way anyone has “the original” of their birth certificate, because if they had, and lost it, they could not request a copy from the state where they were born.
BobS
I liked the idea someone had upthread about making all presidential candidates produce original copies of their birth certificates.
In fact, it should be required of anybody running for any political office in the US, anyone serving on the staff of a politician, or anyone joining the military.
I also think it would be a particularly good idea that an original birth certificate be produced each and every time a Social Security check was cashed, and for any office or hospital visit for which Medicare was billed.
t1
First, regarding your general tone, you can go fuck yourself, okay?
I know the birthers are crazy and stoopid, you ignorant piece of catshit. (See, isn’t this post much more convincing when laden with insults?)
My question was wondering why Obama has chosen not to allow access to the original birth certificate.
A couple of posters above offered speculation about this – maybe he can’t authorize that or maybe he has made a careful calculation to draw the line where he did because he believes it will split off the maximum number of birthers and make them look stoopid which will result in rational voters leaning more towards Obama. Maybe those things are true.
Yes, the birthers are batshit crazy. But the fact that several people commenting here can’t tell the difference between being a birther and speculating about what calculations lay behind Obama’s decisions to handle this the way he has leads me to believe that dumbassery isn’t limited to the birthtards.
So why don’t you see if you can get that through your skull.
The Sheriff's A Ni-
@t1:
FTFY again. Obama doesn’t owe anyone anything beyond the prima facie evidence he’s already revealed. If anyone has a problem with that, they have their next shot at him in November 2012.
Ron
@t1: Why on earth should he “release” anything more than he already has (which is ample proof to anyone with 2 functioning brain cells) when NO OTHER president has been subjected to this.
t1
t1
If he can, in fact, authorize the release of the original, it seems like that would take about 30 seconds for him to do and it would cause the birthers to look even more idiotic. Maybe.
LikeableInMyOwnWay
@t1:
You can’t possibly be serious.
Obama does not own the original certificate and can’t control access to it.
How is it possible that after all this time, you don’t get that?
Yutsano
@t1:
Stop right there. That is your answer. Speaking as someone born in Hawai’i, I also cannot access my original birth certificate? Why? It’s the property of the state, not mine. Full stop. I got a certificate of live birth that was perfectly fine for me to get a passport twice. It looks exactly like Obama’s. End of discussion.
maus
@danimal:
This is a good point.
@t1: To a certain extent, I understand your wanting to make it easier for libs. When presented with sensible, valid reasons for why he may be doing this, continuing to flip out on everyone else is not doing you any favors.
t1
My understanding was that people could obtain a copy of their actual, original birth certificate in Hawaii. Perhaps I am wrong. What do you have, other than your certainty, on this issue?
Are you saying that you have attempted to contact whatever the relevant government office is in Hawaii to get an actual copy of your original birth certificate and were refused? Or are you just speculating that it’s impossible to get a copy of the original because they sent you the computer printout?
When people want to discuss this civilly, I respond in kind. But when some asswipe proceeds to tell me that unless I share his/her precise views on the subject I am a racist, dishonest, idiot, then I tell them to go fuck themselves. That’s all you can do with such people.
LikeableInMyOwnWay
@t1:
The copy of a birth certificate you refer to has already been obtained and seen. It’s the same copy you would get if your certificate were in Hawaii. There’s no mystery about it. The matter is settled in fact, and in law.
Yutsano
@t1: You are being deliberately obtuse and argumentative. In other words, not to be taken seriously.
Sasha
In summary:
Obama has demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt that he is an American citizen, and no further efforts to prove this are necessary on his part.
To entertain and justify the ramblings of people who simply cannot accept the facts is pointless and does nothing save make them appear serious and legitimate, as opposed to the whack-jobs they are.
In short, the next time a birther demands that Obama needs to prove he’s an American, roll you eyes and treat him or her with the same consideration that you’d give someone trying to unironically talk you into reading his religious manifesto of the inner core reincarnated souls’ sex orgy (written in screenplay format).
t1
Actually if you look at the newspaper article tha 238 linked to above (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-07-27-obama-hawaii_N.htm), you’ll see that a copy of the original BC has not been seen by anyone other than one or two HI government officials. You might want to read up-thread to see where I am coming from. I am not a birther and I don’t have any doubts about the legality of the Obama presidency. My interest is in what strategy underlies Obama’s decision not to attempt to release a copy of his original BC. It just seems like a mistake to me, but some posters upthread have made the plausible suggestion that Obama is used it as a wedge to split off the birthers and drive rational votors towards him.
Yutsano
You wrote:
You offered up your personal experience to prove that one “cannot” access their original birth certificate. I asked whether you:
Instead of simply answering and perhaps shedding some light on the issue of whether a person can, in fact, access their original BC, you responded:
Have you considered that I actually might be asking that question in good faith? And I would hope you can see the difference between “they sent me a computer generated form” and “it’s impossible to access your original BC.”
We’re talking about two different things – whether birthers are nuts (yes they are) versus Obama’s strategy in handling this issue. And, by the way, whenever I ran into a birther, my strategy was to ask “If there was really anything to this, don’t you think that Hillary Clinton and her hundreds of lawyers would have found it?” That actually seemed to make an dent since Hillary was the only person they hated and distrusted more than Obama.
maus
@t1:
Asking the question once was in good faith. Continuing to goalpost shift once the reasons for why the records have not been released from proper custody have been explained to you is in poor faith, and in line with the conspiracists, who also have a hard time grasping basic concepts.
You’re probably not a racist or bigot or conservative, but you share their impenetrability on this particular issue, and recycle their poorly-researched arguments as well.
t1
You’re having an argument with someone other than me because that’s not what I have posted. I haven’t shifted the goalposts one bit.
I started by asking why anyone thought that Obama didn’t just release his original BC and chose, instead, to just release a computer generated copy.
One person has said its a conscious strategy. That’s plausible.
A couple of other people have said that it hasn’t happened because it’s impossible for him to release it. Okay. That would be a darn good reason. But when I asked for the basis for this explanation there was no response. I mean, really, look above. The only thing that was offered for the impossibility argument is, “The State of Hawaii sent me the same type of BC.” When I asked if they had actually requested a copy of the original, I just got some insults.
Unfortunately it seems that many people, yourself included, just default to insult instead of discussion.
I’ve said repeatedly that I am not a birther and personally have no doubt’s about the legitimacy of Obama’s presidency. I spent three weeks knocking on doors for him for Christ’s sake. I was just wondering about his strategy on this. But I guess, in some people’s minds, you can’t discuss such things because of, you know, support the team and Republicans are stoopid and rah, rah.
pattonbt
@t1:
Ahhh, still at it I see. Can one develop callouses from clutching pearls so tightly for such a long period to time?
Let’s start again….
The state of Hawai’i has certified Obama was born there. That makes him eligible (at least for one of the criteria) for president. End of story.
tl: But…
Stop. The state of Hawai’i has certified Obama was born there. End of story.
tl: But…
Stop. The state of Hawai’i has certified Obama was born there.
tl: But…
Sigh. Stop. The state of Hawai’i has certified Obama was born there.
So to recap. The state of Hawai’i has certified Obama is legit. End of story. Those who choose not to accept that are not doing so in good faith and are either shirt stirring or deluded. You choose which, but that’s all that’s left. And those are the kind of people that will not accept ANY rational argument / evidence put forward. So why bother?
But what you seem to be saying is that just because Obama is “the other” in these people’s eyes (real murikans) Obama has to do extra shit to prove to them, the “real patriotic murikans” (not some half breed, muslin, marxist hitler wannabe), that he really is who he says he is. And then you seem to believe, naively, that that will just tidy things up right quick and this nonsense issue will be settled once and for all.
I can not fathom what world you live in, but it surely isn’t the real one. None of the people pushing this BS will buy anything. Obama could build the Delorean time machine from Back to the Future and transport every doubter back to his birth to show them in person and they still wouldn’t believe it.
The birther issue does not exist for the reason the people say it exists. It exists for one reason and one reason only, as part of an ongoing campaign to delegitimize the president and paint him as “the other” and your pearl clutching only helps that meme. Obama has nothing to prove to anyone about his “American-ness” and to ask more of him than anyone else just cements that seed they want planted that Obama “really isn’t one of us”.
But you would rather have Obama play defense on being American? That is what you are seriously asking? That’s surely a winner of a strategy there.
Get a grip. Obama has done what is legally required to hold his office, those who will not accept it are either liars, misanthropes or insane. Expecting more of Obama only demeans him (same would go for McCain if the shoe were on the other foot) and helps the overarching goal of the meme.
The only way to fight this issue is with the facts, shaming and laughter – publicly. And even with all that you just have to accept this issue will never go away. No conspiracy does, especially ones which are predisposed to a persons biases. It will sadly be there forever.
Older
Oooooh, a Computer-Generated Form. The horror!!
I used to work for a school. You know how we “generated” the diplomas?
We used a computer.
Does that mean they weren’t real?
t1
pattonbt,
You’re confusing the question of whether Obama has satisified all of the legal requirements to be president with the question of why Obama chose this particular strategy in dealing with the political or p.r. issue.
The former is trivial (he certainly has) but the latter is still interesting.
The birthtards cannot rationally discuss the former and it seems that some others can’t rationally discuss the latter. In fact, some are so spun up that they can’t tell the difference between the two.
Yutsano
@t1:
No, because I answered the question in my response. I needed a record of my birth in an American state to get a United States passport. The State of Hawai’i sent me a certificate of live birth. If I asked for my original birth certificate they would refuse on the grounds that it is the property of the state. Your refusal to understand this and continue to argue paints you as a birfer in all but name.