The Dish spent much more time this year tracking vitriolic right-wing rhetoric than left-wing rhetoric. I went through all of this year’s nominees and there were roughly ten times as many Malkin nominees as Moore nominees. And don’t forget that there is a second category for right-wing bile – the Hewitt Award. If there wasn’t an award for extreme left-wing vindictiveness, the contrast between left and right Cole fixates on wouldn’t be evident. And while I agree that this year’s Malkin nominees are generally more extreme than the Moore nominees, that doesn’t make the Moore nominees defensible. The Dish isn’t going to shy away from pointing out liberal intemperateness and divisiveness just because the other side is currently worse.
Wishing death upon your political enemies isn’t kosher –even if your words are dripping with sarcasm, you’re riffing off an old Dave Weigel quote, and you’re targeting someone as loathsome as Bill Kristol. Is that such a crazy standard to keep?
So basically we agree then- there really is no comparison between the left-wing nominees and the right-wing nominees.
But one last thing- I wasn’t wishing death upon my political enemies. Here is my full statement:
I’m proposing that pretty much every one do what I’m about to do, which is to suggest that I think we all agree the world would be a much better place if Bill Kristol was dead. Let’s give Sully so many nominations he doesn’t know what to do with them.
Pretty clearly, I was simply trying to get everyone to flood you all with nominees. That you chose to cut out the clear intent of the statement to make it appear as if I was just randomly wishing death on people is on you.
DougJ
Enough!
I do think we should have a Sullivan Award For False Equivalences and a McArdle Award For Numerical Inaccuracy though.
dmsilev
Who was it the other day who proposed the Daily Dish Excellence in False Equivalency award? Obviously, Sullivan and his minions are not eligible, as the award should be for amateurs in the field and they are clearly professionals.
dms
Mnemosyne
To be fair, John, how else was he supposed to prop up the false equivalency? And if you let the false equivalency between a Washington Post opinion columnist and some guy with a website to die out, then you’d have to actually admit that one side is fucking batshit crazy, and they’re driving the car.
No, better to continue to pretend that there’s no difference between the two than admit to yourself that the Republican Party is hopelessly broken.
jl
I don’t have time to follow this nonsense. But am curious, does the ‘Moore’ refer to Michael Moore, the film maker? If so, that is a silly name for the liberal side of this idiotic awards for supposed extremism.
But I just dismissed the whole enterprise as nonsense, so if no one bothers to answer me, that is no problem.
Just Some Fuckhead
None of this would have happened if Patrick Appel was dead.
tbogg
Oh noes! Wars have been started over less than that.
Now Appel’s got me wishing he’ll be caught with a dead Bill Kristol because someone forgot the safe word.
Martha
@DougJ: Yes and yes.
1. David Gergen
2. Paul Ryan
Lysana
When will you finally realize Sully is a blog to follow in order to mock, not follow for its own sake? He’s a loon, and his toadies are no better.
Violet
@tbogg:
I’ve been power voting for you. You were as far ahead as 34% of the vote, but dipped back to 33%.
@DougJ:
Yes, please!
Can we also have an award for wishing people dead? Tucker Carlson should be nominated.
tomvox1
I gladly wish death on Kristol every time he pops up on my teevee (“Fucking die already!” I shout). And he ain’t the only one on the Right. The real fallacy is this whole “people are people and if you just had a cocktail with the fellow, I’m sure you’d really like him” mentality. It’s good to have ethical enemies–they represent the opposite of what you believe. And in Kristol’s case, if he could get away with something like an Arab genocide to advance his vision of the United States’ foreign policy aims, he almost certainly would. I wouldn’t piss on him if he was on fire, much less have a polite chat with him. Sometimes trying to be “reasonable” to the enemies of liberal democracy is the least defensible course of action. It seems a squish like Appel just can’t understand that the world truly would be a better place if Bill Kristol was deader than hell.
Martha
@tbogg: Or a live Tony Perkins…
Oh ick, I need brain bleach for typing that.
geg6
Heh, indeedy.
I was just running over here to tell you that the Applebot was smacking you around in the most prissy and sanctimonious tone. I pictured him with one finger in the air and pursed lips while he typed it. Funniest thing I’ve read all day. Though I don’t think that was his intention.
cmorenc
@John Cole:
Yeah, John but you still said something that, even assuming it’s being interpreted out of the proper context you meant, nevertheless you and all of us would be roasting Glenn Beck for saying anything similar, despite any denials and mea culpas he might respond with that we were unfairly taking him out of context. We’d still be legitimately upset at him for saying something as potentially inciteful as that to potential crazies who’d interpret it as a dog-whistle request or else would otherwise be oblivious to its rhetorical context.
And no, it’s not any defense that Glenn Beck is half-insane, half quite coolly, cynically, and calculatingly leading a willingly gullible group of people into a movement in order to feed his own wealth and power-tripping, showboating ego, whereas you’re…a college professor? instructor? just sharing a modest blog among rationally intelligent people who aren’t easily led by anybody.
Saying that the world would be better off if a certain someone or group were dead is ALWAYS an unacceptably dangerous rhetorical device for ANY purpose, unless you really DO wish they would turn up dead, sometime soon, even if by bona fide accident.
Waingro
@DougJ:
Yes!!! Why should Sullivan have all the fun?
Let’s add another category:
The David Brooks Burkean Bells/Turd Polishing Award: Given to a conservative desperately seeking to put a pseduo-intellectual, principled spin on plutocratic policies.
The Bill Kristol Jock-Sniffing Award: Given to the most over-the-top, hero-worshipping authoritarian attempting to justify the most egregious aspects of the national security state.
I’m sure others will have further suggestions.
kommrade reproductive vigor
How about a Do Please Shut Your Face Hole You Ignorant Vapid Pearl Clutching Buffoon award?
We can order the trophy (an itty bitty swooning couch mounted on a vial of smelling salts filled with pearls) in bulk and send Sully his awards for the next ten years.
Redshirt
Begun the Blog Wars have…
If we’re coming up with funny awards, I know it’s a bit off topic, but the Simpson’s “Montgomery Burns Award for Outstanding Achievements in the Field of Excellence” is always a good time.
Zifnab
I mean, basically… yes?
When phrases like “Drop dead” and “Die in a fire” and “Fuck off and die” and “Take a long walk off a short pier” are all over modern vernacular, then getting cold sweats over one more in a long line of “I wish you were dead” comments is ridiculous and asinine.
It’s a crazy standard because virtually no one in Blogtopia – or the rest of the planet – holds to it. Acting like a fussy little manners nazi doesn’t endear you to anyone on this blog.
Rosalita
and such shithouse rats they are to pontificate and yet not allow comments… as if no one is worthy
Quicksand
As God is my witness, I thought salted dicks were non-toxic.
JPL
What site appears on Fox News first Tbogg or Balloon Juice? IMO
one will be highlighted on Fox News Sunday or whatever their show is called about the left calling for Kristol’s death. I’m thinking they will go after Cole and pictures of Lily, Rosie and Tunch will be highlighted. They might even compare him to Vick.
Bill White
How does his milkshake taste?
guster
@Zifnab: Why is rationally explaining things to crazystupid people (who should die the death of a thousand cuts) such a hollow experience?
Of course, you’re right. And yet, Appel still wins. I bet you couldn’t make him explain the mind-numbingly* obvious.
(* no actual minds were numbed in the typing of that sentence.)
New Yorker
So John and the Sully Borg agree then. Can we drop this now and go back to pointing out what an asshole Tom Friedman is and photos of Tunch?
jl
Because I have zero self discipline, I looked it up in the Official Sully Award Glossary (which appears to have mistakes)
“The Malkin Award – named after blogger, Michelle Malkin – is for shrill, hyperbolic, divisive and intemperate right-wing rhetoric. Ann Coulter is ineligible – to give others a chance.
The Moore Award – named after film-maker, Michael Moore – is for divisive, bitter and intemperate left-wing rhetoric.
The Poseur Alert is awarded for passages of prose that stand out for pretension, vanity and really bad writing designed to look like profundity.”
So, Moore is for Michael Moore, of course.
What fool thinks Michael Moore is the lefty equivalent of Malkin?
Also, there is no entry I could find for the Hathos Award, and the Poseur Award does not seem to exist.
Also, too, I tried to vote for Cole for the Moore award, in my tireless efforts to help out this miserable lefty blog, but there was no listing for Cole. What the hell is this fuss all about?
Also, too, in addition, how about a Supercilious Brit Bullshitter Award? I can think of several worthy nominees. Or was that the apparently disappeared Poseur Award?
And how about an ‘incompetently run blog award’ award? Sullivan would win that by a landslide.
Apathy
Suggesting we eat babies isn’t kosher, even if your words are dripping with sarcasm, you’re riffing off a very knowing American of your acquaintance in London, and you’re targeting someone as loathsome as an Irish politician. Is that such a crazy standard to keep?
Metatron
@Just Some Fuckhead: FTW
kommrade reproductive vigor
I said ‘I’m so happy I could die,’
She said ‘Please leave me alone because I don’t care for you,’ and left with another guy.
Doesn’t scan, but it at least it doesn’t offend!
debit
@tbogg: Please, my delicate sensibilities.
kindness
But John you are so clearly correct.
The world would be a better place if Bill Kristol was dead.
Blogasita
Who cares? Why not wish the fucker dead? I do. Does that mean I’m going to go kill him? No. But if the hand of God comes down & does him in? As I said, who cares?
Barb (formerly Gex)
Listen. Clearly they don’t put much thought into the meanings of words. So why would you think they would read you accurately?
They need to misunderstand what you are saying and what the original award recipient said. Otherwise their offense is ridiculous. So what was said is twisted in their minds to justify their response. It doesn’t matter what you said. In their heads you wished death upon someone and THAT is worthy of being held up as the nearest attempt to equate intemperate liberals with our good “second amendment remedies”, “why not just run around the world assassinating people”, “Muslims aren’t really human” conservatives.
Barb (formerly Gex)
@Zifnab: Again, this is how these twits operate. They storm in, demand that they set the rules and that you follow those rules. And in their rules common colloquialisms are just as bad as calling for violence, sedition, and war.
Why won’t we, their inferiors, just unilaterally disarm and let them tell us which rules to follow?
Conservatives are so ridiculous. You can see rape regularly on TV. But Janet Jackson’s boob? National outrage.
You can call for the US to run around the world killing scientists, but you can’t say fuck off and die on a blog.
Penn and Teller’s show on etiquette does a pretty good job of demonstrating how these kinds of things are used by people like Appel to control others.
Dave
I say the onus is on The Dish to explain how the world has benefited from Bill Kristol’s existence.
Maude
@Barb (formerly Gex):
This.
pragmatism
this interview of appel that tbogg linked to is ummmmmm kinda sad.
http://ordinary-gentlemen.com/blog/2009/12/21/it-takes-a-village-an-interview-with-patrick-appel/
Lesley
Wishing death upon your political enemies isn’t kosher
This is such fucking bullshit, I don’t know what to say.
Barb (formerly Gex)
This whole discussion brings to mind a conversation I overheard at my grandparent’s house when I was a tween back in the eighties. The topic of AIDS came up and there wasn’t a lot of concern. One of my uncles thought it served “those cocksuckers” right and was almost happy at the idea of their deaths.
Then they all realized a tween heard the word “cocksucker”. And that was the big moral outrage from the scene. Not the fact that they show callous indifference at best and near joy at worst at the idea of gays dying from AIDS.
ETA: I don’t really know how I came to care about others. My family is really a piece of work.
jnfr
Go vote for tbogg! You too can have a bag of salted dicks.
Just Some Fuckhead
@jnfr: I completely misunderstood and thought we were voting for Bill Kristol to be killed. Now I feel tricked and want my 3000 votes back. Who fucking cares if Tbogg wins? I want Kristol DEAD.
Mnemosyne
@jnfr:
I linked through and discovered that Amanda Marcotte was nominated for a Moore for her dangerously violent blog post saying that David Brooks thought that Sandra Bullock’s husband would have stayed faithful if Bullock had stayed home making sandwiches (ie being a good wifey) instead of winning Oscars.
I guess somebody over there reads Pandagon with one hand over his crotch lest Amanda reach through the screen and yank his balls off.
Quicksand
Are salted dicks crunchy, like crackers, or chewy, like jerky?
On second thought, never mind. I don’t really want to know.
drunken hausfrau
Let’s just call it what it is: jealousy. The right (and the gatekeepers of “respectable” journalism) absolutely hate the left because the left is FUNNY. The left has wit, sarcasm, literacy, talent. The right? Not so much. And the MSM? they are tools.
Most of the examples in these comments just prove my point.
de stijl
@DougJ:
My 2 cents – Should be named McArdle Award For Innumeracy. Innumeracy is an awesome word.
@kommrade reproductive vigor:
Face hole just doesn’t cut it – I know there are lots of folks who are “pie-hole” fans, but I’m a “cake-hole” man, myself.
Which is odd as a prefer pie over cake as a tasty postprandial treat.
Bruce (formerly Steve S.)
That’s funny, because these are the reasons I never read The Daily Dish except when trying to get some context out of someone else’s post.
I wasted a little time looking through the nominees and was severely disappointed at the dearth of “I wish so-and-so would choke on his own vomit” entries. They need to work a little harder at compiling this stuff.
dbcooper
@drunken hausfrau: Astute observation.
Not only funny, but accurate and they hate that.
(Observation made while power voting for T-Bo over at Sully’s… holding steady at 34%-22%)
kc
@cmorenc:
Saying that the world would be better off if a certain someone or group were dead is ALWAYS an unacceptably dangerous rhetorical device for ANY purpose, unless you really DO wish they would turn up dead, sometime soon
In which case it’s a totally acceptable rhetorical device!
AhabTRuler
@Zifnab:
Bingo.
I mean, wouldn’t it be great to examine & discuss the role of violence in human culture and the English language, but nobody gives a fuck about that pussy shit. Hoo-ah!
Pete
Has Patrick Appel been taking stupid pills, cut with Conor Friedersdorf’s Patented Good Times Pretentious Tablets?
LGRooney
Sounds like SOP for right wingers discussing originalism when it comes to the Constitution.
On another note, if I may twist my knife of arrogance a bit, when talking about JC’s comment on Bill Kristol vs. the homicidal rhetoric from the right it is very important to note the distinction in readership. Given the nutcases running the right-wing asylum these days and their followers, and given the general intellectual level of
what used to be called moderate conservativesliberals, this side can be a bit more flippant with its words because the readers better understand what are hyperbole, sarcasm and analogy. Conservatives have a solid recent history of actual murder over political differences.MikeMc
I cannot believe this is still being discussed.
digby
In the name of bipartisan comity, I feel compelled to point out that Sullivan actually nominated me based on a post by a fellow liberal who frequently calls me out publicly for being a silly old hysteric. Liberal shrillness is commonly loathed by very serious, savvy people on both sides of the aisle.
catclub
“The Dish spent much more time this year tracking vitriolic right-wing rhetoric than left-wing rhetoric.”
… but we spent much more time criticizing left wing rhetoric.
jnfr
@Mnemosyne:
You almost get the feeling that the folks over at the Daily Dish don’t know what sarcasm and snark are all about.
Cermet
If sullivan was more interested in truth rather than being the gay end of the thug party, he’d state the truth – these thugs caused the murder of so many tens of thousands children, woman and many, many more men and male teens that did nothing to hurt us in any way as well as the terrible injuries that far more people there suffered.
Yet that is ok but wishing someone to be killed is far, far worse?
WTF!? Sullivan is a total shit eating ass wipe that I hope is murdered in a manner exactly like so many poor Iraqi’s were – and more, I wish the same on bush, cheney and all the war mongors that started that illegal and immoral war that murdered so many people and ruined a country for at least a generation. Animals all. sullivan is sick and must like the mass murder of children as long as afterward, he can say, oops, my bad. Pig.
Cermet
@Cermet: I forgot to add that I hope everyone he loves die’s before his eyes first just like so many Iraqi’s had to wittnes such horrors and people like kistrol had such a hand in making all that come to pass. Thank God we are not, never have been and never will be a Christian nation because God would really, really be pissed at us considering how many people are murdered for our profits as we give lie to christian values.
Barb (formerly Gex)
@Cermet: The jury’s still out. It remains to be seen if they only ruined one country or if they ruined two.
Ripley
Based on his quotes, I don’t know why anyone reads Sullivan. Never read him, don’t care to, probably never will. Seriously, if there’s a less interesting, less important voice in political blogging, I’ve yet to come across it.
Hell, Spocko is light years ahead of Sullivan when it comes to political analysis, and actually took on some of the shit munchers who were calling for violence against people. But Sully’s interns are really digging in and making note of the rhetoric and hyperbole. Fucking huzzah, right?
Sullivan is beyond irrelevant. Or less than irrelevant. One of the two.
Belvoir
“Pretty clearly, I was simply trying to get everyone to flood you all with nominees. That you chose to cut out the clear intent of the statement to make it appear as if I was just randomly wishing death on people is on you.”
I agree, and I thought the intent of your jape was clear. Appel seems to be a petty little bitch here, deliberately pretending you were serious, then smugly lecturing. Stop fixating, Cole! What a jerk.
I guess Sullivan is totally cool with his seat-warmers dishonestly taking your quip seriously and posting that hostile nyah-nyah. Childish really.
Redshirt
@Cermet: Strong stuff. And good! Damn.
The comments above about Rethuglicans not understanding sarcasm, irony, or any of the other subtle pleasures we hysterical liberals indulge in near daily, are dead on. DEAD. ON.
Richard Rorty's Chins
I hope Appel dies in a Bill Kristol — on camera.
Judas Escargot
@Rosalita:
Can’t risk Readership Capture.
Damned proles have a way of getting uppity and boorish if you let them speak out of turn in public.
Lincoln
@Lysana: Aaaaamennnnn
Jim C.
Now I know I’m not one of the most regular commenters here, but I think Appel is in the right on this one.
It’s some pretty big nit-picking to delineate between stating the world would be a better place with someone dead and actively abdicating for it to happen ala “will nobody rid me of this turbulent priest”.
I agree that it is objectively true that Bill Kristol is a slimy piece of shit and the world would indeed likely be better if he was not in it. Just like the world would indeed be better if there was no Dick Cheney or Sarah Palin or Rush Limbaugh etc.
The problem is that in a civilized society, I think posting public fantasizing about such things to a very widely read blog crosses a line of sorts. Yes, the number and extremism of crazies on the right is far surpassing those on the left at the moment, but that doesn’t mean that we on the left don’t have a few whack-job lunatics as well.
Would we really want someone who is a regular reader of Balloon Juice who happens to be more than a bit off his rocker to say to himself, “You know what, the world WOULD be a bit better place without that dickwad around. John’s right. I think I’ll go take care of that.”
I don’t know about any of the rest of you, but I’m not sure that I’d want to be referenced as the muse who inspired someone to go off ANYONE…
…even a total asshole like Bill Kristol.
Jim C.
Small addition:
Yes, I know that the full context of what was said:
“Pretty clearly, I was simply trying to get everyone to flood you all with nominees. That you chose to cut out the clear intent of the statement to make it appear as if I was just randomly wishing death on people is on you.”
But I’m not sure that this is quite as clear as you think John. “Tone of voice” doesn’t always translate well to words on a screen.
I’m very favorably inclined towards Balloon Juice, but the original couple of sentences raised my eyebrows a bit.
To paraphrase Star Wars, I don’t think that bloggers always are aware of the influence that they can have on the weak minded out there.
Redshirt
@Jim C.: I agree with you in large part, but I think there’s a substantial difference between a turn of a phrase, like “go DIAF”, which is more slang or text-speak than anything else, and really only means get stuffed, get bent, go pound sand, etc. The sentiment behind the slang is fairly common. Now, outright wishing for someone to die, in detail, is a little much. But it still does not compare to the very real manipulations of millions of people, affecting billions and indeed our very species to the last, perpetrated by Kristol et al. Their lies and deceptions have very real consequences, while the slang of bloggers is but conversational froth.
de stijl
@Jim C.:
How about wishing for someone’s death, but with cute little emticons? As in:
I hope Bill Kristol get salmonella and shits himself to death ; – )
asiangrrlMN
@Just Some Fuckhead: Thread. You won it. Twice, actually.
@jl: It’s easy to get confused. It’s actually TBogg for whom we are voting (though I would have voted for digby if this kerfuffle hadn’t started). Cole was just making a searing point about Sully’s underlings indulging in a case of very false equivalence.
@Barb (formerly Gex): I strongly agree with this. Tits can be seen on TV selling everything from car to booze to cologne. But, heaven forbid that Janet Jackson’s covered nipple pops out during the halftime of a very violent sport when men are pounding the shit out of each other (and said commercials are being played in the interim). It’s madness. Madness, I tell you!
The world would have been a better place without Cheney, W., Kristol, et. al. Not saying it doesn’t make it not true. And, I reread that post of TBogg’s. He was spot on and right in his assessment of Kristol. They really are cherry-picking.
matoko_chan
@Cole
what do you not understand about this?
Patrick Appel and the rest of the sullyborg have message discipline suppositories so far up their butts that they’re leaking out their ears.
and the message is….. both sides are just the same.
Consider this post –New Atheists are screwed on reproductive rate.
Appel follows this up with crappy ctds about how yes, xians out reproduce atheists all the while wholly ignoring the real reproductive story, which the Dish even linked.
Smart Youth Voters Shunned the GOP in Midterms.
The reason this is happening is Salam-Douthat stratification on cognitive ability, Grand New Party page 154.
Differential in between group reproductive rates hardly matters when the entire top tier in IQ out-converts to atheism.
Like in the much ballyhooed GOP “wave” midterms.
Elite students fled the GOP like scalded cats.
The reason this is a ginormous problem for conservatism in this country is that conservatism has become a religious doctrine.
We are simply not a secular nation when one of the two major parties is wholly religious.
The GOP cannot nominate a presidential candidate that fails a purity test on religious doctrine like fetal personhood and creationism and homophobia (the “sanctity” of marriage).
Conservative christianity has wholly suborned the conservative movement in this country.
And they cannot talk about this because the other thing conservatism has become is wholly intellectually dishonest.
And it is likely irreversible, because it is branding.
Very difficult to change branding without alienating the “judeoxian” base.
Sully et al are just conservative shills. That means they don’t mention ANYTHING that looks bad for the future of conservatism. Sully exploits the bloody hell out of gay rights issues, cant admit he was WRONG about Trigs maternity, and is a conservative fifth columnist ON EVERY OTHER FUCKING ISSUE THERE IS!
no party or clique my fine white muslimah ass.
Paris
Most of the Moore nominees don’t even make sense. Suggesting Bobo doesn’t like women is hateful speech?
How about a special award just for Faux? How many of their personalities have wished someone dead this week, much less all year long?
Where was the mention of this one?
Tucker Carlson: ‘I Think Personally [Michael Vick] Should Have Been Executed’
brantl
These fuckfaces that work for Sullivan wouldn’t be so defensive, if they didn’t know that they were wrong.
Judas Escargot
@matoko_chan:
I had a casual acquaintance point out that “Christians are outbreeding Atheists so we’re winning, Ha!” article at a Christmas party last week.
I pointed out that (with our greater grasp of Science), the atheists will always have better weapons, so I don’t consider this to be a serious problem.
Funny how quickly the topic was dropped.
Trakker
Sigh… ’tis the season to be jolly and bright isn’t it? I think we should try to put ourselves in the Dish’s shoes for a minute and imagine what it must be like to be lumped together with Limbaugh, Beck, Hannity, Malkin, et. al.!!! Ewww! Wouldn’t you go off the rails sometimes?
Think about it. Imagine how demeaning it must be when the nuttiest lefty you can think of to use for your award for nuttiness is Michael Moore. Michael Moore?! Moore is a deft cartoonist. Michelle Malkin is a nihilist. That’s what the Dish has to live with every day of every year.
Pity them.