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You are here: Home / Politics / Domestic Politics / Oh, No

Oh, No

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Keep these folks in your thoughts:

U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords of Arizona was shot outside a grocery store in Tucson while holding a public event, Arizona Public Media reported Saturday.

Giffords, who was re-elected to her third term in November, was hosting her first “Congress on Your Corner” event at the Safeway in northwest Tucson when a gunman ran up and started shooting. At least five other people, including members of her staff, were hurt, according to Peter Michaels, news director of Arizona Public Media.

Please, no wild and uninformed speculation until details come out.

*** Update ***

I’m begging you. Please stop with the speculation until we know something. All we know is that many people are dead, and it is a horrible situation.

Reader Interactions

535Comments

  2. 2.

    Yutsano

    Apparently they caught the guy who did it. Hopefully Rep. Giffords will be okay, fortunately the U of A hospital is right there.

  4. 4.

    Warren Terra

    It would indeed be irresponsible to speculate. But I’m finding it impossible not to, though I won’t share any. My fervent wishes for the recovery of the victims.

    ETA The shooter was tackled by a bystander. Brave fellow.

  6. 6.

    AuldBlackJack

    “Gabrielle Giffords (born June 8, 1970) is the U.S. Representative for Arizona’s 8th congressional district. She is a member of the Democratic Party.
    She is the only member of the U.S. Congress whose spouse, astronaut Mark E. Kelly, is an active duty member of the U.S. military.
    Giffords is known as a strong proponent of solar energy as well as for her work to secure the border with Mexico.”

    Sounds like a socialist to me. Dog bless Amurika, where at least we know we’re free …..

  7. 7.

    PurpleGirl

    Oh hell. That’s terrible. I’ll keep her and the other hurt in my thoughts. I hope she and they will be okay.

  8. 8.

    Nick

    you would think the cable news channel would stop all coverage for this. I’m sure they wouldn’t either even if it was, say, Michele Bachmann (God forbid)

  11. 11.

    Lynn Dee

    Okay, no speculation. But is there any reason why none of the media seems to be mentioning her political affiliation? Or is this someone’s idea of being “fair and balanced”?

    Okay, the linked to article says she’s a Democrat. But, in googling around, I found a fair number of articles that are silent on that point. Seems weird.

  13. 13.

    Joseph Nobles

    Giffords’ district was one of the ones “targeted” by Sarah Palin. But we don’t know who did this yet.

    Fox just broke the story on TV, says Twitter.

  15. 15.

    Mike Kay (Chief of Staff)

    it was only a matter of time with the paranoia and hatred peddled every minute by Fixxed News, Hate Radio, and the GOP.

    In fact, Nancy Pelosi spoke of this in September 2009.

  19. 19.

    Alison

    Very scary, and maddening. This is what fucking happens, you teabagging fuckholes.

    Yeah yeah, no speculation. Sue me.

  20. 20.

    PaulW

    I will speculate. The gunman hates Cheez Whiz and wanted to make a statement.

    Either that or he hates Democrats. It’s one of those two.

    This wouldn’t have happened if there were more sword-carrying geeks in the crowd. Guns don’t kill people, geeks with swords do. At least that’s what Slate says.

  23. 23.

    Jay in Oregon

    Yes, but Eric Cantor once claimed that someone shot at his office window, so both sides are just as bad.

    EDIT: Crap. I just saw the update that she was shot in the head. Damn, damn, damn.

  25. 25.

    Mike Kay (Chief of Staff)

    pigs on fixxed news are asking if Giffords did something to provoke the shooting.

    i’m not kidding.

  26. 26.

    Nick

    Secretly, I’m sorta hoping it was an illegal immigrant or someone just looney tunes and not some right wing fanatic, because if it is, I hope Sarah Palin is indicted.

    If it is, this is Civil War now.

  31. 31.

    Silver

    I’m betting it’s drug related. Your average teabagger is too old and fat to shoot 12 people. I can see them managing one or two, but not 12.

  32. 32.

    kth

    I’m praying, after a fashion (I’m an agnostic), and I’ll refrain from political speculation until she’s out of the woods (whichever way out). Fucking terrible.

  37. 37.

    The Dangerman

    All things considered, I’m surprised this hasn’t happened previously and won’t be surprised if it happens more often in the future (regardless the cause of this event).

  38. 38.

    AxelFoley

    @mr. whipple:

    Is this what they meant by a Second Amendment solution?

    Seems like it, don’t it?

    Well, how’s about we go Old Testament on them? Y’know, that part about eyes and whatnot?

    Sick of this shit.

  39. 39.

    Joseph Nobles

    @Mike Kay (Chief of Staff): God fucking damn it. I had to flip over for a second to hear that shit for myself. Whenever I need a definition of concern trolling par scummy, this Fox New performance will be Exhibit A.

  44. 44.

    Mike Kay (Chief of Staff)

    given the extreme propaganda I’ve seen on fixxed news, everyone is a target.

    just this morning they were peddling a conspiracy theory that democrats will confiscate retirement savings.

    no lie is too incendiary.

  45. 45.

    Max Peck

    This all could have been prevented if we were allowed to openly carry firearms at all times….or something

  46. 46.

    cleek

    what a stupid fucking world this is.

    a sample FreeRepublic comment:

    I’m hazard a guess that the left sacrificed her to forward their agenda.

  47. 47.

    Joy

    The only report of a shot to the head is the Tucson Citizen website, which is not a traditional paper anymore, but the last vestige of the afternoon paper, so I would take that info with a grain of salt at this point.

  49. 49.

    GregB

    A man on CNN who was in the same parking lot is reporting that there are several dead, bodies still in the parking lot.

    It is not known if the shooter is still at large.

  50. 50.

    Mouse Tolliver

    And over the past two days three incendiary devices have been sent through the mail in the DC area. One was intended for Janet Napolitano. Another was sent to the Democratic governor of Maryland. And a third went off while it was still at the post office. One of the same post offices that was affected by the anthrax mailings.

    No speculation here, but its past time to start pushing back against the psychotic, violent rhetoric that’s coming from the right.

  51. 51.

    PurpleGirl

    New York Times:

    BREAKING NEWS1:22 PM ET
    Rep. Gabrielle Giffords of Arizona Reportedly Shot in Tucson

    That’s all they have so far.

  52. 52.

    The Dangerman

    @kdaug:

    And so it begins…

    As a person that is a known liberal in a Red area, I don’t feel well enough armed. If this goes the way we all fear, this shit will get ugly.

  53. 53.

    Comrade Mary

    This is horrible.

    Early reports are confusing: She was shot point blank in the head! No, the gunman was firing randomly into the crowd. News site comments are as bad as you think: It was an illegal! It was drugs!

    Whether or not she was deliberately targeted, she’s badly hurt, maybe dead, and we’re now hearing that other people are dead, too. I’m glad someone tackled that shitstain.

  56. 56.

    Jay in Oregon

    @Mike Kay (Chief of Staff):
    When you’ve convinced yourself you are a victim, anything you do to strike back at those whom you perceive is victimizing you is justifiable.

    http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/anger-in-the-age-entitlement/201002/victim-identity-im-not-okay-youre-more-not-okay

    Victim identity is identification with bad treatment you have suffered. It is focus on perceived damage at the hands of someone else or on personal weaknesses you feel were exploited by someone else. Damage and weakness become an integral part of your identity.
    __
    Victim identity carries a retaliation impulse that eventually rises to the level of revenge, enacted either passively (negative attributions and sabotage) or dramatically. All abusers and violent criminals suffer from victim identity, which, in their minds, justifies their abuse and crimes. The retaliation motive of victim identity is so great that you can reliably use the following as a guideline: If you feel chronically like a victim, you are most likely abusive in some way.

  58. 58.

    cckids

    @mr. whipple: Its the start. I think those who want the 2nd amendment solutions are thinking this, on a larger scale.

    I live in NV, and there are plenty of mouth-breathing fools who are probably hearing this & thinking “good start”. Evil bastards.

  59. 59.

    Warren Terra

    @Mike Kay (Chief of Staff):

    pigs on fixxed news are asking if Giffords did something to provoke the shooting.
    __
    i’m not kidding.

    Have these people no shred of decency, no concept of shame? What conceivable “something” could she have done to “provoke” shooting her? For gawds sake, what kind of atrocity did she commit that would explain the gunman shooting eleven other people?

  60. 60.

    geg6

    Fuck it, I’m going there, Cole. If this was a goddam Teabagger or any other sort of winger, it’s on. I’ll start packing and these mother fuckers will get a taste of their own medicine.

  61. 61.

    Shalimar

    Can we at least speculate that you have to be crazy to throw your life away to shoot a public figure like this? There isn’t any information to speculate on what kind of crazy, but this is just insane and unhinged.

    Prayers and best thoughts for those who have been injured.

  62. 62.

    BGinCHI

    A comment on that KGUN site I linked to:

    “I am conservative, but when I needed assistance and Gabby Giffords responded to my concerns within hours, John Mc Cain didn’t even bother responding my thought are with her and family.”

  69. 69.

    mclaren

    This may be a wild uniformed speculation, but just offhand, I’m going to guess that the shooter was not a liberal Democrat.

    Speaking for myself only, of course. Just a hunch.

  70. 70.

    4tehlulz

    Yahoo finally has something. It says it was the Congresswoman and her staff that were shot.

    Damn, it’s on now.

  72. 72.

    cathyx

    @Jay in Oregon: That’s the end result of all of the right wing media. It just feeds ones victim mentality. And given the instability of some people, this type of scenario occurs.

  78. 78.

    eldorado

    not going to speculate, wildly or not. people are crazy and they do things for crazy reasons.

    upthread someone said the perp had been caught. can anyone provide a link to that info?

  80. 80.

    MikeBoyScout

    Gabrielle Giffords, Jesse Kelly race all about immigration

    But her opponent in the Nov. 2 congressional election, Republican businessman Jesse Kelly, said Giffords hasn’t done enough. He is calling for the construction of a double-layer border fence, the hiring of even more Border Patrol agents and the deployment of 10,000 National Guard troops – more than eight times the 1,200 sent by the Obama administration.
    “Gabrielle Giffords has betrayed southern Arizona by refusing to secure the border,” Kelly said.

  83. 83.

    4tehlulz

    Fun Trivia: Cong. Giffords had her office vandalized during the HCR debate.

    Obviously, this means that she was shot by Mexican drug lords.

  84. 84.

    Jay in Oregon

    @trollhattan:

    Well, the “logic” behind that argument is that you would be less likely to provoke someone if you believe there’s a good chance you will get seriously injured or killed.

    In reality, what’s more likely to happen is this:

    1) Crazy asshole starts firing into the crowd at Giffords
    2) People in and the near the event start firing back
    3) Bullets that miss keep travelling and find other people to injure. (This actually happened in Portland a few years ago; a shot fired traveled a couple of blocks and struck someone)
    4) People hear the shots being fired, draw their weapons, run in and start firing at anyone they see shooting

  87. 87.

    Cermet

    Irresponsible to speculate? WTF! Palin and the other terrorist on fake news tell people to ‘target’ and they show the Demorat’s face within a rifle acope sight the dangerous demorats and you say it is irresponsible for us to speculate?! The greatest terrorist in this country are the repub-a-thugs and their enablers, fake news and billions that fund these nutcases.

  88. 88.

    Comrade Mary

    Not only does Palin’s Facebook page still hold that target graphic and the entire post, but her Take Back the Twenty site also includes the words “We’ve diagnosed the problem… Help us prescribe the solution.”

    Stating the obvious: of course I don’t think that palin wanted anyone to be killed. But if the shooter was someone with a TP hate-on for Democrats, and if he states that Palin’s campaign inspired him — ahh, what am I thinking. Her supporters will rationalize away her recklessness and bad judgment as they always do.

    On preview: Oh, man, the Congresswoman is dead? Others are dead, too? Bastards.

  89. 89.

    roshan

    I hope Giffords survives but if the point blank to the head news is true then it’s likely that this is going to turn into a nightmare. Also, hoping the other folks caught in the gunfire survive too. Fuck Fox News, Limbaugh, Palin, Bacchman, Angle and the whole Koch Bros right-wing alliance.

  90. 90.

    mr. whipple

    Rep. Gabrielle Giffords and six others died after a gunman opened fire at a public event on Saturday, the Pima County, Ariz., sheriff’s office confirms. The 40-year-old Democrat was outside a Tucson grocery store when a gunman ran up and began firing indiscriminately. The suspect was taken into police custody.

    OMG.

  91. 91.

    Short Bus Bully

    I am feeling sick right now. The idea that a coward would do this to ANY elected official has me feeling more down about our country than any time I can remember in recent years.

    FYI, I would feel the same if someone had shot W. like this. America doesn’t roll this way, at least not the America that I love.

    Fuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuck…

  97. 97.

    Dave

    This is on the head of Fox, Palin, Beck and everyone else who stirred up right-wing hate and used gun imagery and language to demagogue Democratic candidates.

    Maybe NOW the other media outlets will start calling them for what they are. Or do more people have to die?

  100. 100.

    BGinCHI

    Maybe it’s just stupid, speculative coincidence, but AZ has become the Palin lower 48 home state, hasn’t it?

    Let’s see if Palin or any of the other armchair gun and violence fetishists own up to having added to the conditions in which this stuff happens.

    Time for a new Brady Bill.

  102. 102.

    Obliterati

    Fucking hell, my blood is boiling. I hope to FSM that this is just some lunatic and not what I think it is…

  104. 104.

    Jake

    Some random things we know:

    1. Democratic congresswoman, some of her staffers, and others were shot at a public event.
    2. The public event was titled “Congress on your Corner”.
    3. Congresswoman Giffords appeared on Fox News yesterday.
    4. Congresswoman’s Tucson office was vandalized during the health care debate.
    5. Sarah Palin produced an ad with cross-hairs over Giffords’s district. The ad listed her name.

  105. 105.

    gizmo

    You can lay this horrible incident right on the doorstep of FOX news. Decades of hate, broadcast 24/7 into the living rooms of America has its consequences.

  106. 106.

    MeDrewNotYou

    Why is it always Democrats getting assassinated? (Dennis’s posts kinda explain that, but I’m fucking frustrated.) I say it a lot, but I really don’t want to live on this planet anymore.

  109. 109.

    Drouse

    If this is the work of a loosely wrapped wingnut, maybe the FBI will stop sweeping this shit under the carpet. The Beck inspired shooter in Oakland had a binder in his truck that probably contained a lot about his motivations. The FBI swooped in, snapped up the book and it has been crickets ever since.

  112. 112.

    Joseph Nobles

    Gawker has an eyewitness account from a former ER doctor. The shooter walked up to Giffords and shot her point blank, though she was able to move her hands after gunshot. The shooter then attacked the crowd.

    This was a political terrorist act.

  113. 113.

    Davis X. Machina

    @gnomedad: Not bloody likely. Liberals are intelligent, mostly, and quick studies, mostly. They’ll take the message to heart.

    The requisite ‘chilling effect’ will commence instead.

  114. 114.

    Judas Escargot

    @JPL:

    According to Tuscon newspaper she was shot point blank in the head.

    Fucking punk. Shoot an unarmed woman, barely 5’6″, in the head? Kill 6+ others, too, just to make sure? Yeah, true manhood.

    I do retract my pissed-off comment on “Southern Honor” from the other night: As was pointed out to me by several other posters, many Southerners have indeed shown true honor for their country over the centuries. One of my more asshole moments, and I’m sorry at anyone here who was offended.

    That said: It’s now, officially, ‘Crazy-Right-Wing Honor’. And yes, I’m assuming. Somehow I doubt this kid was a leftist.

    We’ll be watching your reaction to this, Gov. Brewer. Closely.

  115. 115.

    CaseyL

    I am not the slightest bit surprised: Arizona is fucking nuts, like Mississippi during the early Civil Rights movement, with bigots inciting and carrying out violence against Latinos and against anyone they think “supports illegal immigration.”

    You know what the RW is going to say. In fact, Fox has already started, by blaming the Congressperson: A “regrettable” act of violence that shows “how deeply people feel” about the issue. In other words: the victims had it coming.

    You know those fucking Bush-era police powers the Obama Administration decided it liked after all? I’d like to see them use the power of indefinite detention on the RW fuckwads who incite these terrorist acts and assassinations. How about they start with Brewer, Palin, and Bachman.

  119. 119.

    cckids

    @Short Bus Bully:

    I would feel the same if someone had shot W. like this. America doesn’t roll this way, at least not the America that I love.

    I agree. Even when the Iraqi guy threw the shoes at him, I shuddered a bit, because what if? ? W. was a shitty president, & I despised him, but killing him? No, no way.

  120. 120.

    lamh32

    Fox news now have some morning reporter on, trying to say when he interviewed Rep gifford, he told her that she “sounded like a conservative” and she told him that she “used to be a Republican…”.

    I see Fox is already trying to spin this hard!

  123. 123.

    gypsy howell

    @TheBus18:

    This isn’t domestic terrorism, is it.

    Saw somewhere (TPM?) that the gunman reportedly called out names of his targets as he was shooting.

  124. 124.

    The Populist

    OMG. I have no words to describe my anger and disgust at this turn of events. If the shooter is a follower of any of the righty tards who talk about stuff like this, it’s on.

  125. 125.

    Cat Lady

    Well, I guess its on. The only way to push back against this fucking shit is to scream at the media for allowing all of these nutjobs access to the airways. Boycotts. Picket Fox. Picket Beck wherever he goes. Boycott media that lets Palin twitter her fucking crap. Isn’t this a criminal conspiracy or something? This is public airwaves these thugs use to peddle their hate.

  126. 126.

    Joseph Nobles

    OMG, earwitness 50 yards away heard 15 consecutive shots. It would have to be semi-automatic at the very least.

  127. 127.

    Mike Kay (Chief of Staff)

    An uncharacteristically emotional Nancy Pelosi is warning Republicans — and other groups getting whipped up over the health care debate — not to incite unstable supporters who might repeat acts of violence that struck San Francisco in the 1970s (assassination of Harvey Milk and George Moscone).

    September 17, 2009

  128. 128.

    Dave

    She was shot first. This is an assassination. Fucking right-wing rhetoric in action.

    Fuck you, Palin.

    Fuck you, Ailes.

  129. 129.

    4tehlulz

    From Gawker:

    The gunman was young, mid-to-late 20s, white, clean-shaven with short hair and wearing dark clothing and said nothing during the shooting or while being held down, although he struggled at first. He didn’t look like a businessman, but more of a “fringe character,” Rayle said. The sheriff’s department arrived, arrested the gunman and cordoned off the parking lot.

    Totally a Mexican drug hit.

    @Mark S.: HAHAHAHAHA No.

  132. 132.

    gypsy howell

    @lamh32:

    You can bet the “just an isolated crazy person” explanation is being rolled out from the executive suites to the news floor in our media conglomerates as we speak.

  134. 134.

    hueyplong

    My bullshit meter is engaged when a report says the firing was “indiscriminate,” yet the guest speaker– the reason the pre-announced event is held– just happens to be shot in the head.

    The other victims might have been killed indiscriminately, but subsequent reporting will have to change a lot for me to believe that characterization applies to Ms. Giffords’ death.

  136. 136.

    Comrade Mary

    @Mark S.: Like scene from The Shining, where (ironically) the targeted assassination of the evil and insane political candidate fails because he uses a baby as a human shield and earns the disgust of a nation?

  137. 137.

    Zach

    Why doesn’t the assassination of a sitting Congressional representative merit “an interruption of your regular broadcast” or whatever? Would a Senator be important enough? Are they waiting till they get both sides of the story? I suppose you can’t hurt the ratings of the NFL pregame show, womens’ basketball, or an exercise infomercial…

  138. 138.

    licensed to kill time

    Wow, this is just horrible. I will wait for all of the facts to come out but naturally one tends to think of all the violent rhetoric and predictions of apocalypse and doom issuing from one side of the political spectrum. They’ve been winding up the scare machine so tight that springs are sproinging loose.

    What a tragic event.

  140. 140.

    West of the Cascades

    @Comrade Mary: I disagree – Palin is venal enough to actually want people killed. She easily could avoid this sort of suggestive language in her posts and websites (particularly websites, where whatever is written is a product of longer, more calculated writing process than twitter or facebook). She (or her handlers) made a deliberate decision to use the provocative phrasing on that site, to put rifle scope targets on the map, to use the term “help us prescribe the solution,” to play into the message elsewhere about “Second Amendment solutions.”

    I’m willing to speculate, contra John: the person who did this was motivated by the sort of hatemongering that Sarah Palin relies on and whips up to line her own pockets and promote herself.

  141. 141.

    JCT

    Oh, I am just sickened. A dedicated public servant assassinated while meeting with constituents in broad daylight.

    I swear I want to see the MSM run with that disgusting Palin graphic with the crosshairs.

    HEY, Gov. Brewer — how’s that fucking concealed carry law that you just signed working out for you? You know, the one that doesn’t require a permit?

    So surreal — I’m considering a job offer in Tucson, people keep saying what a nice “safe” change this will be from NYC.

  142. 142.

    Nina

    @Short Bus Bully:
    I’m with you on all of this SBB, assassination is horrifying. I’m here in NY and am not familiar with U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords but this news is just chilling and so painful. My thoughts are with U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, the others who have been wounded or worse, her constituents, and with the nation.

  145. 145.

    Anya

    This is such a tragedy, not only for the families of those killed and wounded by this clearly deranged young man, but for our country. WTF is happening in this country? A Congresswoman doing a routine work — meeting her constituent — was just shot by a man using an automatic rifle! Fuck! I feel enraged. We are not Pakistan damn it.

  152. 152.

    suzanne

    Fuck the right wing. Fuck them all.

    This happened around the corner from where I used to live.

    This place is fucking batshit crazy.

  154. 154.

    cathyx

    Absolutely no one who is guilty of inciting these kind of violent acts will ever admit that they incite these kind of violent acts.

  155. 155.

    BGinCHI

    MSNBC has a local sheriff on and he says Giffords is still alive. Has info from a SWAT medic or something.

    Obviously this is moving fast, so it’s hard to say what the whole truth is right now.

    Just reporting.

  157. 157.

    Dennis G.

    @Joseph Nobles:
    But of she was. I guess one of Sarah’s fans took her advice.

    Fuckers. Absolute neo-Confederate fucksticks.

    Oh and John McCain, are you happy now?

  161. 161.

    Comrade Mary

    @freelancer: Yeah, The Dead Zone.

    God, I feel so sorry for Giffords’ family and friends. This is going to be a nightmare for the rest of their lives.

    Oh: and cue an upcoming genuine or fake threat against Palin that she will milk for all it’s worth.

  162. 162.

    plaindave

    Any bets on eventually seeing the security camera video?

    $100 says it will be inadvertently erased.

  163. 163.

    stuckinred

    The Sheriff is going ape shit about “all the crap and hatred spewed by some media outlets”. Also, her husband is in space on a mission.

  164. 164.

    RoonieRoo

    @CaseyL:

    I’m sorry, I can’t turn on the tv or I will be ill. Are y’all saying that Fox is actually defending the assassin? Please tell me that is not what is really happening.

  165. 165.

    Jay in Oregon

    @Zach:

    Why doesn’t the assassination of a sitting Congressional representative merit “an interruption of your regular broadcast” or whatever? Would a Senator be important enough?

    I think it has less to do with the relative importance of the office than whether their name has an “R” or “D” after it.

    If Michelle Bachmann or John McCain were shot, they’d interrupt coverage of the Second Coming to announce it.

  170. 170.

    Mike Kay (Chief of Staff)

    Hospital spokesperson on MSNBC is saying she is still alive and currently in surgery.

  171. 171.

    Jo

    CNN saying “conflicting reports” on whether or not she’s passed away. My thoughts are with her and her family.

  173. 173.

    mr. whipple

    They are reporting both that she’s dead, or in surgery.

    Might be both if she’s an organ donor.

  174. 174.

    tomvox1

    Hospital spokes is now saying on MSNBC the Congresswoman is alive and in surgery, although probably critical. Fingers crossed.

  177. 177.

    The Populist

    I really hate asking this but does Gov Brewer get to appoint somebody or do they hold another election? Seriously, I am also concerned with this turn of eve@James Hare:

    The right will tell you we live in a republic as democracies are too messy.

    Question: Will Gov Brewer be allowed to appoint somebody in her place? If so, she’d better honor the win and put a local dem in office.

  178. 178.

    Gravenstone

    MSNBC just had a phone interview with a UA hospital spokeswoman who corroborated that the Congresswoman is alive, currently in surgery. An official update is due 1330 Mountain.

  179. 179.

    SectarianSofa

    Goddamn it.
    Damned sad, and I’m pissed off.
    Made me think of the Pakistan assasination, as well….

  181. 181.

    trollhattan

    @plaindave:

    In this day and age I’d be very surprised if there aren’t several videos taken by those attending. We’re an all video, all the time society.

    I’ll guess the FBI and Secret Service will be taking this over, forthwith. I’m hoping the president will speak on this as soon as the facts have cleared some.

  182. 182.

    Svensker

    @Judas Escargot:

    They’ve already pulled the page (500 server error).

    I can still get it, although the formatting is screwed up. Could that be because it’s still in cache? Or are they just getting inundated with hits.

  183. 183.

    jinxtigr

    John, if you can’t handle hearing “Second Amendment Solutions”, fuck you. It’s nice that you want to not fly off the handle, but COME THE FUCK ON.

  184. 184.

    CaseyL

    @RoonieRoo:

    I would not watch Fox if it were the last working communication medium on Earth. Mike Kay Chief of Staff took a quick look, and this is what he reported:

    pigs on fixxed news are asking if Giffords did something to provoke the shooting.

    i’m not kidding.

    I based my comment on that.

  186. 186.

    Dennis G.

    Most sickening will be the fucking crocodile tears and shock of the teabagger fucksticks and Republican Members of Congress and the Senate who thought that they call call for violence month after month and lie and make constant appeals to hate and now they are ‘shocked’ that people act on the lies they have been fed.

    Fucksticks

  188. 188.

    Bill E Pilgrim

    @JCT:

    I’m considering a job offer in Tucson, people keep saying what a nice “safe” change this will be from NYC.

    Er, actually.

    Tucson crime rate is higher in every category.

    New York is the safest big city in the US these days. Not that Tucson is even big. But it’s got higher crime rates even so.

  190. 190.

    jaleh

    I just wanted to see how they report this on Fox. For the first time in months I’m watching Fox. They just reported the gunman shouted something before he started shooting.

  192. 192.

    trollhattan

    NYT is saying she’s in surgery despite CNN and NPR saying she was killed.

    Then there’s this:

    The shooting occurred at a Safeway supermarket in northwest Tucson as Ms. Giffords hosted an event, called “Congress on Your Corner, to allow members of the 8th Congressional District to meet her individually. She has held several events since first taking office in January 2007. At one such event in 2009, a protester was removed by police when his pistol fell on the supermarket floor.

  195. 195.

    Nick

    @The Populist:

    Question: Will Gov Brewer be allowed to appoint somebody in her place? If so, she’d better honor the win and put a local dem in office.

    Special Election

    but lets’ hope it doesn’t come to that.

  196. 196.

    Shalimar

    Ok, no speculation on motive since we will learn soon enough. But, I’m wondering how Republican leaders must be feeling right now. We saw what happened to Robert Bennett, Mike Castle and others. We know how the tea partiers feel about Lindsey Graham and other traitors to true conservatism. And they really don’t think very highly of John Boehner or Mitch McConnell. It only takes one insane person listening to the rhetoric to do something like this. Knowing just what we know, if I’m Boehner or McConnell, I am terrified right now and wondering whether it was worth it to whip up all the hatred.

  199. 199.

    Nina

    HIPAA regulations protect patient and designated family representative(s) rights first, and we won’t know much until the families of those who were attacked know what’s going on and choose to reveal information (or authorize it). Thoughts will all of them, and all of us.

  200. 200.

    CaseyL

    Regarding what happens to her seat: Someone on Kos, I think, has noted that Arizona requires special elections to fill unexpectedly vacant seats.

    OTOH, I’ve also seen an announcement by the GOP candidate who lost to Giffords of a special press conference next Saturday. This is the fellow who Palin supported, and who put a banner up on his campaign website exhorting people to “take aim” at Giffords.

    So maybe he’ll be announcing that Gov. Brewer has appointed him to finish Giffords’ term. Even though that is contrary to AZ law, and even though he lost to Giffords. I mean, it’s not like anyone will have the power to stop her. You think the AZ court will rule against the GOP? Or the SCOTUS? Hah.

  201. 201.

    LikeableInMyOwnWay

    I am mule kicked. Gabby Giffords is a gift, to the state and to the country and to the world. There might not have been a better or more worthy person in congress.

    Arizona is in shock. We are so upset out here, I can’t even describe it.

    Pray for the people killed and injured and for all of us.

  202. 202.

    liberal

    Assuming it was politically motivated, and the assassin was a rightist.

    How much did the Israeli right suffer after Rabin was assassinated? Not much.

  203. 203.

    eemom

    @Jay in Oregon:

    If Michelle Bachmann or John McCain were shot, they’d interrupt coverage of the Second Coming to announce it.

    the day those vermin are shot will BE the Second Coming.

    Sorry. That is very wrong of me.

  205. 205.

    JCT

    @Bill E Pilgrim: Yes, I know about the crime statistics — folks still think NYC is this evil, dangerous place.

    It’s ironic, but whenever I discuss this potential move the first comment is about the “lack of crime” and the second is usually regarding how one could be a physician in a state that lets transplant patients die on the list or be de-listed solely to save a few million bucks.

    The latter is a far greater concern — I’ve lived in NYC most of my life, I remember when it was a much less safe place.

    Good neurosurgeons at U of A — let’s hope for a good outcome, folks.

    And I have my copy of the disgusting Palin target map right here on my desktop.

  208. 208.

    lamh32

    So Fox essentially saying why would anyone target Rep Gifford, she was a “moderate” as if to say she wasn’t even “liberal”…bastards

  210. 210.

    roshan

    I believe the Boehner and Co. are already drawing up plans of blaming the shooting on the liberals and the far-left. False equivalency is going to lead the day as every talking head is going to parrot the “both sides do it” meme. Fox News is going to push the blame of the shooting on Giffords herself since her anti-americanness was proven by her vote for health-care. The media circus is going to begin any minute now.

  212. 212.

    eemom

    fwiw, there’s a nice gun at the top of the page right now in an add for “concealed and carry” permits

  213. 213.

    CaseyL

    @liberal:

    Not at all. In fact, the Israeli Right won the next election, and have stayed in power ever since.

    And we know how much the American Right loves the Israeli Right.

  214. 214.

    eemom

    there’s a nice gun at the top of the page right now in an add for “concealed and carry” permits. I take it there is some software that actually MAKES this happen?

  218. 218.

    Elizabelle

    I would love to be a fly on Eric Cantor’s wall right now.

    Or Boehner’s. Even Glenn Beck’s.

    Not Roger Ailes. He will have no remorse.

    You knew something like this was going to happen. Only question was the target.

  220. 220.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @change:One, fuck off. Two, if it is a right wing extremist, he likely would see staffers as evil libs as well. Three, seriously, fuck off.

  222. 222.

    Martin

    CNN appears to have retracted their claims that she died.

    Other than that, I got nothing good to say, so I’m going to say nothing.

  224. 224.

    Scarshapedstar

    Okay, fine. I won’t speculate that she was shot by the same tea bagger that shot up her campaign office. I just wonder when we can stop calling this a ‘shooting’ as opposed to an assassination.

  225. 225.

    piratedan

    I phone banked for her and am hoping that she somehow makes it through this. It’s not often that I get off my fat ass and actually get involved but I put in 20 hours for her because I believe that she’s a pragmatic person who generally makes good choices. My feelings go out to her staff and those others that were gunned down for simply being there or doing their jobs. The local paper (www.azstarnet.com) has all the suspects you might want to offer if you follow the commenst section after her office was vandalized post the HCR vote. She went so far as to OP-ED her decision in the local paper and why she voted for it and drew the usual hateful remarks and the amount of money that was spent during the campaign itself was impressive considering the size and constituency that she represents. I won’t have to jump to any conclusions about this shooting, since whe was singled out and shot first. The only question remains as to whether this person was disturbed or was “motivated”.

  227. 227.

    Davis X. Machina

    @Shalimar: There will be no price — none, zero, nada, zip, zilch, rien — paid by the GOP, any member of the GOP, any part of the GOP propaganda apparat.

    The desired chilling effect will be felt by the dwindling number of incorrectly-oriented legislators. They’re bright people, and they’ll draw the appropriate conclusions. Amid expressions of regret, their opinions will be stated less frequently, and heard less widely, than they otherwise would have.

    In other words, the system will have worked.

  229. 229.

    gbear

    @NR:

    TBogg has the chart up on his latest posting.

    Fuck. Fuck. Fuck. Where do you go when you think things can’t get any more fucked up. This is only going to amp up the crazy on Bachmann and her ilk.

  230. 230.

    lamh32

    Damn,

    seems this has already broiled over to Sarah Palin’s FB page.

    How soon before she shuts it down?

  232. 232.

    jinxtigr

    @change: Shut up. The mere likelihood that your people are now gunning us down in the street puts you beyond civilized discourse.

    There’s politics, and then there’s being shot down in the street.

    The latter is war, buddy. You could even say that TALKING about liberals being shot down in the street is still politics, though it’s sick fucking politics. Once it starts actually happening it is war, not politics.

  234. 234.

    Karen

    Oh my G-d!

    A woman and six others were killed (or the conflicting reports say she’s in critical condition)!

    Who cares that it’s a tea partyist or who the fuck ever!

    What’s important is that there are six families that will be without their loved ones!

    Speculate when we find out more information. Please. It’s on all the cable news stations now, btw.

    My heart goes out to all of those loved one’s families. I grieve for them. Wait til we find out more details.

  235. 235.

    lamh32

    I see a lot of GOP congress people coming on TV via phone an such to speak on Congresswoman Giffords. No spin there right?

    BTW, Sarah Palin’s short statement, after taking town her “lock and reload website”, from facebook of course:

    http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=485459383434

    “My sincere condolences are offered to the family of Rep. Gabrielle Giffords and the other victims of today’s tragic shooting in Arizona. ”

    On behalf of Todd and my family, we all pray for the victims and their families, and for peace and justice.

    – Sarah Palin

  236. 236.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    God almighty. Is anyone listening to this nitwit Republican on MSNBC blathering about how GG is “bipartisan”? He sounds like he’s talking at the retirement party at someone he doesn’t know.

  237. 237.

    Bill E Pilgrim

    @suzanne: I’ve never even been there, I just got curious and looked that up when I saw the post above. I’ve been looking at stats of various cities for unrelated reasons lately, pretty surprising what you find compared to CW.

    @JCT:
    Common wisdom is like concrete, as they say, once it sets….

    The vast majority of our country operates on a series of comic book images that are usually at least 30 years out of date, if they were ever true at all.

  240. 240.

    RalfW

    Per NPR:

    2:57 p.m. ET: Darci Slaten, spokeswoman at University Medical Center in Tucson, just told CNN that she can confirm Rep. Giffords was shot in the head and that she is in surgery now. Several other victims are also in surgery.

  243. 243.

    4tehlulz

    Oh look, the traitor has arrived.

    Why am I not surprised that he is too much of a coward to admit he’s happy about this political assassination?

  245. 245.

    Mr. Blink

    John, I know you don’t want us speculating, but fuck. Go read the comments on the fucking Fox news website. One person on there said Obama should be lynched in 2012, and lots of other people are basically saying “this is what happens when liberals attack the constitution”, and other shit like that. No, this is not an isolated wacko, it’s what at least 50% of the posters on the Fox site agree was the right thing to do. Fuck them.

  246. 246.

    eemom

    @stuckinred:

    seconded.
    I think it is great that John almost never bans anybody and part of what makes this blog better than most. However. There are exceptions. And this maggot is one of them.

  248. 248.

    Pangloss

    It is January 8, 2011. Just since the first of the year, the Democratic Governor of Maryland, Democratic head of Homeland Security (former Governor of Arizona), and a Democratic member of the House have had assassination attempts.

    But I’m sure we’ll hear soon that “both sides do it” sometime soon….

  249. 249.

    suzanne

    @Bill E Pilgrim: I was robbed a couple of times when I lived there, once combined with B&E. The police straight-up told me they weren’t going to try to solve the case, and refused to dust for fingerprints or anything.

    When I lived there, Tucson had the highest crime rate of any city in the U.S. At the time, the Tucson P.D. had 52 police cars. I went to IHOP one night, and 6 of the cars were in the parking lot. By the time my food came, we heard gunshots about a block away.

    That sort of thing happened often.

  250. 250.

    AAA Bonds

    Speculation aside, you don’t have to link the many recent attempts at violence against government officials in this country to be disturbed by them.

    I’m hoping that story gets at least some mention this year.

  251. 251.

    Davis X. Machina

    @Anya: On the contrary, it will be gospel by Wednesday.

    Narratives are constructed — they don’t just bubble up spontaneously. And in this case the people who can do it, need it to be done.

  252. 252.

    stuckinred

    Surely this will bring about great change. Just look what happened in Knoxville when the wingnut gunned down “liberals” in a Unitarian Church. Oh, nothing you say?

  255. 255.

    jinxtigr

    @Scarshapedstar: The point is that it doesn’t have to be the SAME teabagger. The point is that it may be- is likely to be- a different teabagger following the non-specific instructions very carefully and repetitively given by various people and media sources.
    This is not an accident or mistake. It seems not that likely that it was a personal act. I do not like this tendency to demand that this be not considered a political act, after all that’s been done to bring it on.

  256. 256.

    Karen

    @stuckinred:
    I know it matters who.

    All I’m saying is that we shouldn’t forget that people died. Not just the Congresswoman (or she’s in critical condition).

    I see nothing wrong with putting a human face on this tragedy and reminding people that this tragedy has robbed families of their loved ones.

  259. 259.

    Dave

    John…I’m sorry. But the rhetoric of Palin, Beck, Angle, Fox News and the rest created this kind of environment. Regardless of why the killer did this (but I would bet a ton he’s a right-winger), they are responsible for this kind of atmosphere. Look at all the shit Giffords went through. Someone left a gun at another constituent meeting of hers. She was threatened more than once.

    It’s NOT irresponsible to lay the blame at the feet of those who made this kind of action acceptable.

  261. 261.

    Omnes Omnibus

    MSNBC had a report that Giffords was alive and able to speak as she went into surgery.

  263. 263.

    Joseph Nobles

    @eemom: Software: “Oh, there are people talking about guns on this page! Perhaps someone here might be interested in purchasing one? Dooty-dee-doo…”

  264. 264.

    fucen tarmal

    i really had to check myself on this one, not in small part because i was having a very very good day so far.

    the numbing part, i felt an astonishing lack of surprise, like curt cobain killing himself lack of surprise for those within a certain age range, or tupac, it was like this was due to happen. like that makes it any better.

    i don’t know, and we won’t know the facts, perhaps for days, even weeks, but i want this to be a turning point, a real turning point, in all the shit we have become so used to, anesthetized to, to the point it doesn’t seem as shocking as it should.

  265. 265.

    PurpleGirl

    @eemom: Yes, the ad companies scan the text content of the site to see what words are on it and put up the ads based on that. So apparently since we’ve used the words, NRA and associated stuff, we want ads about guns.

  266. 266.

    liberal

    @mikefromArlington:
    No way there’s enough to go after anyone legally, unless there’s an actual conspiracy in the usual sense of the word.

    In terms of going after them “morally,” ISTM the hate-inducing language used by the American Right is SOP for right-wing extremists everywhere. And I don’t see much evidence they suffer for it; look at the Israeli right after Rabin was assassinated.

  267. 267.

    Nina

    @AAA Bonds:
    I don’t trust or rely on the NYT (and I’m in NY), but HIPAA law protects patient and family rights first and foremost, and until the patient or family release info we citizens (and this includes blogs, the NYT, NPR, CNN) won’t know anything. This is horrible and traumatic, but these laws are designed to keep the focus where it belongs right now, on the welfare of the patient and comforting family.
    We will get names as families are notified and can respond to the situation of their loved ones.
    My thoughts are with US Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, her family, her constituents, her staff, those who were injured or worse, with us, with the nation. How horrifying.

  269. 269.

    PaulW

    no speculation?

    a congresswoman who literally has a bullseye painted on her by sarah palin gets shot, and you don’t want speculation?

    okay. this is not speculation, this is fact. we have had shootings by far right wingnuts at “liberal” targets like a unitarian church and the Holocaust museum. we have had deadly packages shipped to Democratic leadership in the last week. we have had warnings from people who keep an eye on militia extremism telling us that the violent rhetoric out there in the not-so-fringe society is up to pre-Oklahoma City levels.

    we should and must wait further word on who exactly the shooter is and what his beef was. But the odds are too damn high its a goddamn wingnut shooting a “librul” because he’s been told we’re at war with each other.

  270. 270.

    liberal

    @Dave:
    Huh. I saw that “she didn’t vote for Pelosi” on a news site, and immediately though, “OK, but who did she vote for?”

  271. 271.

    kdaug

    @change: Cute.

    But since he’s commenting on his post right now, and they have the shooter in custody – swing and a miss.

    Jackass.

  273. 273.

    liberal

    @Omnes Omnibus:
    In a way it’s not that surprising. Point blank, blah blah blah. But apparently she reacted right before she was shot, and if she turned her head enough the damage might have been minimal. Let’s hope so.

  274. 274.

    IM

    21.Isn’t that the right age for a first ocurrence of schizophrenia?
    Add the idiotic gun laws (and gun culture) and the political climate of Arizona and the mad man was pointed in this direction.

  278. 278.

    Dave

    @liberal: Yeah…there seems to be an attempt with right-wing sites to play up any angle to make her “less” Democratic. How utterly unsurprising…

  280. 280.

    AAA Bonds

    @Nina:

    . . . I don’t know why that was a response to me? I’m not seeking personal information about the victims, I’m saying that the Times has done its usual terrible job so far.

  281. 281.

    jinxtigr

    Oh my G-d!
    A woman and six others were killed (or the conflicting reports say she’s in critical condition)!
    Who cares that it’s a tea partyist or who the fuck ever!

    I care, because it was not a bridge collapse or bolt of lightning that happened without intent to deprive families of their loved ones.

    I will not be steered into some manner of sentimental grieving as if these people were hit by a falling rock. There’s fuck-all I can do, I don’t even LIVE in a wingnut-heavy location. Though I’m going to be really pissed off if the second amendment people kill my Vermont senator, Bernie Sanders. And it’s going to be hard to figure out, intelligently, what to specifically DO.

    Do you understand that if this is a political act, and if it is copycatted by other unhinged, loosely directed wingnuts (and I’m going to say that putting crosshairs on liberals and giving their names and locations is still LOOSELY directing- nobody specifically said ‘come shoot this woman, today’), that it is a first shot in a civil war?

    Do you understand that if we can be gunned down in the streets of our country as a political act, we are at civil war?

    Being at war does not imply that we gotta abandon all civilization and fight it out like Somalia- that’s retarded, no way- but let’s call a spade a spade. People can call all the names and throw all the words they want and I’ll call it sick-ass politics, but when the other side opens fire it’s no longer politics.

    For what it’s worth, traditional Republicans are every bit as much at risk.

  282. 282.

    Joseph Nobles

    OK, a Federal judge was among those shot.

    And Gifford’s step-children may have been at the meeting.

    Her husband’s brother is also an astronaut and is currently in the ISS.

  283. 283.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @liberal: MSNBC said she was talking when she arrived at the hospital. I have no idea what that means, but it sounds like a good sign

  284. 284.

    liberal

    @stuckinred:
    His 2009 ADA score was 75%. Not great, I think the avg Dem was 85%. But you’d have to ask how conservative his district is. The report lists the most conservative Dems for 2009 in the House, whose scores range from 55% to 20% (gasp!).

    Also note that the most liberal Rethug was Collins/Snowe at 65%. Of course you’d have to ask how comparable the ADA House and Senate ratings are. But Castle (R DE) was the most liberal House member and got a 55% rating. (And of course there’s the whole “how good are their ratings” issue.)

  286. 286.

    Gus diZerega

    @roshan:

    And if it’s the right that did it what will you say to us all? I suspect it will be “crickets” because in my experience right wingers are bullies but have no genuine courage. Like their hero John Wayne.

  288. 288.

    Gozer

    My heart goes out to Giffords and her family.

    For those of you who have never had to deal with crazies like this one on one, it’s fucking scary how fucking crazy they can be and many genuinely don’t give a fuck.

    Case in point, whey my wife and I moved into our new house our retired neighbor greeted us with ruminations about how the country was going down hill and the white man is being left behind and how shit is going to happen in the world and “you’ll see…”. Keep in mind we’re a mixed couple (I’m teh swarthy) and he straight up racially insulted me on my own property. It was after that I decided to get some firearms training.

    These mofos are really frightening.

  291. 291.

    sherifffruitfly

    Yet more white christian male domestic terrorism that white christian males will never, ever call “terrorism”.

  292. 292.

    Karen

    @jinxtigr:

    Being at war does not imply that we gotta abandon all civilization and fight it out like Somalia- that’s retarded, no way- but let’s call a spade a spade. People can call all the names and throw all the words they want and I’ll call it sick-ass politics, but when the other side opens fire it’s no longer politics.

    But we don’t know anything about the shooter except that he’s 20 years old.

    We can speculate til we turn blue but we have no idea who the shooter is.

  293. 293.

    Citizen Alan

    @stuckinred:

    My God. To find out about a senseless tragedy like this .. while in space?!? How quickly can they bring him down to be with his children???

    @freelancer:

    okay, thank god for that, at least.

  294. 294.

    Martin

    @Joseph Nobles: There’s the diversion for Fox. Rather than focus on the who/what/why of this, what do you want to bet they’ll prattle on for 2 weeks about why an activist judge was at a political event, etc?

  295. 295.

    freelancer

    A reader of Sully’s reacts:

    I am standing in the aisle at Costco when I found out my Congresswomen, Gabrielle Giffords, has been shot dead up on the north side.
    While I’m scrambling with my phone, two couples in front of me are talking about it and suddenly I hear one of the women say, “Well, that’s to be expected when you’re so liberal.”
    And the other woman says, “Ohh, so we get to appoint a Republican?”
    I did not trust myself to speak. I’m a Soldier. Please remind me what country I am fighting for? At least seven people are dead. She happens to be the only member of Congress married to an active duty military — he’s a Navy officer serving as an astronaut.

    Fuck these women. They should be suffocated with excrement while being set on fire. “That’s to be expected when you’re so liberal.” Fuck you.

  298. 298.

    Anacreon

    A thought jumps out, that this is almost certainly going to earn mention in Obama’s State of the Union address in a few weeks.

  299. 299.

    WarMunchkin

    This thread is absolutely awful. I hate it.

    The correct response is that you’ll keep Rep. Giffords and the other victims in your thoughts and prayers, that you hope for their recovery and their souls to rest in peace. Period. Full stop.

  300. 300.

    Joseph Nobles

    OK, just saw a Arizona law enforcement official (ano) quoted as saying someone in the crowd shot back at the gunman, and that a Glock 9mm was recovered from the scene. So maybe semi-automatic isn’t necessarily true.

    John Roll is the federal judge killed, and he had death threats after certifying a $32 million civil lawsuit from illegal immigrants against an Arizona rancher.

    http://judgepedia.org/index.php/John_Roll

  305. 305.

    Rob

    Good news on Fox — Shepard Smith reporting that Giffords is responding to doctors’ commands.

  306. 306.

    wengler

    This is one of the most open and closed capital cases you could ever see.

    Congresspersons right now don’t really have any sort of formal protection outside of their office, and I’m guessing that this Congress will not be so concerned about “spending” when it comes to their own safety. The smarter rightwingers do understand that any person can shoot a gun.

    The only surprise here is that it hasn’t happened earlier. Is this the first Congressional (attempted)assassination since Jonestown?

  307. 307.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @freelancer:

    two couples in front of me are talking about it and suddenly I hear one of the women say, “Well, that’s to be expected when you’re so liberal.”
    And the other woman says, “Ohh, so we get to appoint a Republican?”

    I’d be willing to bet that both of them describe themselves as “Christians”

  308. 308.

    Karmakin

    Assuming that this was a political assassination (attempt currently), quite frankly, being quiet about this stuff actually makes it more dangerous. You have to make it clear that there WILL be a public backlash against such actions. That’s what prevents them.

    It’s strange that it’s the same thing that helps in opposing terrorism. Oh wait. That’s what this probably is.

  309. 309.

    jaleh

    Fox just had a state senator from AZ who said “when you have so much vitriol from the tea party, it could push someone over the edge”…She also said Gabriel was worried about something like this happening, but more worried about her staff than herself.

  310. 310.

    scav

    @WarMunchkin: well, having stated your feelings, I’ll tell you mine: namely that you are an arrogant ass to tell other people how to deal with tragedy, and, moreover, you are exploiting that tragedy in using it as a cudgel to impose your sense of decorum on others.

  311. 311.

    cleek

    @sherifffruitfly:

    Yet more white christian male domestic terrorism that white christian males will never, ever call “terrorism”.

    do you have any evidence that any of those adjectives, expect “male”, apply here ?

  312. 312.

    Nina

    @AAA Bonds: Sorry if I misunderstood, but there just isn’t reliable info at all on Rep. Giffords’ condition at the the NYT or anywhere else because that info cannot be released by the hospital until release is authorized by the patient or her family. So the NYT isn’t ‘last’ or ‘right’ at the the moment because the info is not available. In this case I respect their restraint. (original response to #240.) Again apologies if I mistook your comment.

  313. 313.

    Dave

    @WarMunchkin: I understand your sentiment. But when guys like Erick Erickson are trying to advance the line that the Mexican drug cartels are responsible, and Fox is playing up some kind of “anti-Obama” stance that Giffords supposedly had, then I think it is fair and right to call out the right-wing violent rhetoric that allows something like this to happen.

  314. 314.

    BGinCHI

    @WarMunchkin: So this holds no interest for us?

    http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/01/flashback-giffords-opponent-had-m16-shooting-event-help-remove-gabrielle-giffords-from-office.php?ref=fpblg

    Yes, we’re thinking about them and hoping they’re OK (though I don’t pray, thanks very much), but since life is going to go on, I’d prefer to keep this country from descending into a violent shithole.

    Having your head in the sand isn’t going to help anyone.

  315. 315.

    Comrade Mary

    MSNBC has reported that the judge shot and killed at the site was John Roll. It may have just been his bad luck to be at the scene, but the judge, a Bush appointee, has faced credible threats of violence from the right before:

    Judge Roll in 2009, faced death threats after presiding over a $32 million civil-rights lawsuit. The lawsuit was filed by illegal immigrants against an Arizona rancher. After Judge Roll ruled the case would be certified, threats came from talk-radio shows which fueled controversy and spurred audiences into making threats against the judge[2].
    __
    The threats materialized after one show, Judge Roll’s name logged more than 200 phone calls as some callers threatened the judge and his family[2].
    __
    This resulted in the judge and his wife were under a protection detail for one month as Judge Roll was given twenty four hours a day, seven days a week security by the US Marshals Service. An US Attorney’s investigation ruled that four men were identified as threat makers, but no charges were filed[2].

  319. 319.

    jinxtigr

    @Karen: …and nobody in American politics is doing anything at all or talking about anything at all in the way of political assassination. It’s in a complete vacuum, and it’s politics as usual. Riiiiight.

    What we know about the shooter is, he exists in this society. And we know plenty about this society, and we know that whoever it is had SOME reason for trying to kill off a bunch of people at a specific, pre-announced place, people who (guess what!) have been literally targeted with crosshairs for ‘removal’.

    STOP REMOVING THE CONTEXT. Things have consequences. We can see all the workings of the plan right up to the final part, where it goes dark, drops out of sight, and then out the other side comes a ‘crazed unmotivated mass murderer’ at best. At BEST. At worst, people are taking the tactically-vague instructions given them in plain, plain sight.

    I said before, it goes beyond existing parties now and Republicans are just as much at risk here, if they are not doing things like, say, freezing the debt ceiling, shutting down the government, repealing HCR or whatever. They’re in the crosshairs too and they know it. This is not coming from the traditional Republican power structure.

    I’m just saying, things could start happening very fast and people will need to have a clear picture of what’s happening. If we fuck around going ‘oh the totally unmotivated tragedy’, you know a lot of our people could be gunned down in loosely-coordinated ‘events’ while we are being “responsible enough not to speculate”?

  320. 320.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @cleek:

    The gunman was young, mid-to-late 20s, white, clean-shaven with short hair and wearing dark clothing and said nothing during the shooting or while being held down, although he struggled at first. He was “not particularly well-dressed”; he didn’t look like a businessman, but more of a “fringe character,” Rayle said.

    Whatever else we’re going to find out, I’d bet the farm that we’ll find out about a history of mental illness

  322. 322.

    Slide

    I can’t tell you how angry I am. If this turns out to be some right wingnut, which I assume it will be, it will be a turning point of sorts. We have been heading in this direction for some time and here we are. I guess those that suggested that if they lost the election that a “2nd Amendment Remedy” might be in order. Yep. Don’t win at the ballot box then we might just have to shoot you because …. well because…. we know better. We’re the REAL Americans you see. We are the true PATRIOTS. We just LOVE our country… and OUR God.

    I’m fuckin pissed

  324. 324.

    BGinCHI

    MSNBC: “She’s expected to pull through.”

    !!!!!!!YES!!!!!!!!!!

    Hope this is accurate.

  325. 325.

    Admiral_Komack

    @BH:

    I bet that miserable grifter bitch won’t be reloading for a good, long, time.

    Yeah, I said it, and I’ll say this too:

    President Obama has been called everything but a child of God, and has had numerous death threats.

    Now this young woman and others have been shot.

    What happens now?

    Will both parties try to chill with the rhetoric, and will the MSM do their part to stop this vitrol (Limbaugh, O’Reilly, and Beck I’m looking dead at you), or will we get just bullshit apologies.

    I’ll take bullshit apologies for $1000.00, Alex.

  326. 326.

    cleek

    @Dave:

    But the rhetoric of Palin, Beck, Angle, Fox News and the rest created this kind of environment. Regardless of why the killer did this (but I would bet a ton he’s a right-winger), they are responsible for this kind of atmosphere.

    how the fuck can you assign responsibility when you don’t know why the guy did it ?

    at this point, for all we know (literally), this could have been a John Hinckley kind of thing – a crazy guy using crazy logic to try to achieve his own crazy non-political goals.

  327. 327.

    Comrade Mary

    That link I made above may not work as that server is being hammered. The update:

    UPDATE: Police arrest man near Thornydale and Magee Roads who is suspected of being connected to the shooting of Giffords and others. A third man is being sought.

  328. 328.

    Violet

    Oh, my gosh. I just heard about this. How utterly terrible and devastating. I ache for Rep. Geffords, her family, and the others who were shot and their families. So, so, so awful. I don’t even know what else to say. So horrible.

  329. 329.

    gbear

    @WarMunchkin:

    Period. Full stop.

    Well if you can turn your brain off at this point, more power to you. It’s really hard for me to think about Gifford’s assassination without my mind turning to the graphic that Palin had posted showing a fucking gun site with her name attached to it. These are facts, not speculation. These facts need to be addressed STAT because others could be in danger also, too.

  330. 330.

    Judas Escargot

    @change:

    I bet its a disgruntled former staffer. He shot the staff too. A political assassin would just shoot the Congresswoman.

    A ‘former staffer’ would have been recognized. And one of the targets was a 10 year old kid. Such honor. Such bravery. Such manhood.

    The left is going to be disappointed that they can’t make political hay out of this poor woman’s death.

    Fuck you. Fuck you all the way to hell.

    And when you finally do get there, may bloated, red-hot spiky demon-cocks fill every single one of your miserable, wart-ringed orifices until the very end of time.

    I mean that sincerely.

    (BackOnTopic: Latest reports say she was actually able to talk on the way to the hospital, which is a good sign).

  331. 331.

    Short Bus Bully

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    You’re right. Mental illness will rear it’s head in the back story. Very sad when illness gets weaponized and then agitated past the point of no return by the usual suspects.

  332. 332.

    lamh32

    Reports coming in saying Giffords is expected to pull through.

    Still prayers and condolences.

    whatever happens, IMHO the end of any chances that Sarah Palin may have had of becoming President. Oh, her supporters will still love her unconditionally, but any campaign opponent of hers will include this news coverage and her “lock and reload” webpage as apart of their “research” on her. And that’s just the GOP side of it.

    Already, Palin and her minions websites are scouring to scrape all incidents of possible extreme rhetoric off of affiliate websites, and her FB page is being inundated…

    Are we witnessing the poss end of the grifter’s national aspirations…?

    Prayers for Rep Giffords and other’s injured.

  335. 335.

    trollhattan

    The president:

    This morning, in an unspeakable tragedy, a number of Americans were shot in Tucson, Arizona, at a constituent meeting with Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords. And while we are continuing to receive information, we know that some have passed away, and that Representative Giffords is gravely wounded.

    We do not yet have all the answers. What we do know is that such a senseless and terrible act of violence has no place in a free society. I ask all Americans to join me and Michelle in keeping Representative Giffords, the victims of this tragedy, and their families in our prayers.

    Nancy Pelosi:

    “It is with the deepest sadness that we have received word of the attack on Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords, members of her staff, and her constituents. This terrible act of violence is a national tragedy, and today is a very sad day for our country.

    “My prayers, and the prayers of all Members of Congress, go out to her husband, Captain Mark Kelly, their family, and to all of the staff and others who were victims of this horrible attack.

    “Congresswoman Giffords is a brilliant and courageous Member of Congress, bringing to Washington the views of a new generation of national leaders. It is especially tragic that she was attacked as she was meeting with her constituents whom she serves with such dedication and distinction.”

  337. 337.

    Rabble Arouser

    @change: Eat a whole bag of dicks. I know you love to needle folks over their political views here, but you are way out of fucking line with that shit. This was a fucking attack on America, you piece of dog filth. Fuck yourself to death.

  338. 338.

    amorphous

    You know, we’ll find out in short order if any of the wild speculation is justified, but the fact that the behavior of dozens of powerful people in a major US political party makes such speculation not only easy but inevitable is something that is actually making me sick to my stomach and somewhat concerned about what will be happening to this country over the next decade.

    That said, I’m deciding today that I am never going to set foot in Arizona again for any reason. Not even to connect flights. If I were in Arizona right now, I’d be busy looking to figure out the easiest way to get out permanently.

  339. 339.

    Dave

    @cleek: And if you want to pretend that all of that didn’t matter, that it’s sheer happenstance that the shooter walked out of the store BEHIND Gifford and shot her first, that the police looking for other suspects is irrelevant…then fine. I’ll take the evidence at hand and lay the blame where it belongs.

  341. 341.

    RedKitten

    I really do hope that this wasn’t politically motivated, and was just the act of some random nutjob. If it was at all politically motivated, things will get SO ugly, with the left blaming the right, and the right claiming it was a set-up. You think politics are ugly now? Oh, just wait.

    I hope she pulls through, and my deepest sympathies to the loved ones of those who were killed.

  342. 342.

    Slide

    I hear Sarah Palin’s people are trying to remove all those gunsight graphics over congressional districts and her Facebook page is overwhelmed with people giving her a piece of their mind. She is an accomplice to murder.

  343. 343.

    cleek

    @stuckinred:
    this guy?

    if so, he’s TimeCube-style crazy. just fucking nuts.

    and here are his favorite books:
    Animal Farm, Brave New World, The Wizard Of OZ, Aesop Fables, The Odyssey, Alice Adventures Into Wonderland, Fahrenheit 451, Peter Pan, To Kill A Mockingbird, We The Living, Phantom Toll Booth, One Flew Over The Cuckoo’s Nest, Pulp,Through The Looking Glass, The Communist Manifesto, Siddhartha, The Old Man And The Sea, Gulliver’s Travels, Mein Kampf, The Republic, and Meno.

    anyone still think this was a teabagger?

  346. 346.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Comrade Mary: That is not good. Assuming that it is accurate, of course.*

    (*) Not a reflection on you, Comrade Mary, but on the unfolding story.

  347. 347.

    amorphous

    …aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand CNN is asking for “more bipartisanship” right now. What is with these people?

  348. 348.

    PeakVT

    @Dave: Calling out disgusting rightard spin is not the same as creating disgusting spin from the other side. There’s plenty of the former to find and document right now.

  350. 350.

    Glen Tomkins

    Nothing to speculate about

    Of course this was a political killing. A Congresswoman was shot at a public constituent event. She wasn’t shot in some attempt to grab her purse. She was shot because she was a Congresswoman, a Democratic Congresswoman. Clearly the shooter disagreed with the reality that AZ-8 is represented by a Democrat.

    It’s equally clear that, unlike similar episodes in, say, Pakistan, this shooting wasn’t ordered by the other party. Had the leadership of the other party wanted to get rid of some D, it would have been some D Senator in a state with an R governor. They may pick up AZ-8 from this, but that prize hardly seems worth the risk of exposure of their involvement, which carries a far greater downside here than in Pakistan, where this is politics as usual.

    Now, whatever responsibility can be laid to the door of the other party’s ideology has long been clear before this shooting. The shooting was politically motivated. The shooter wanted to hurt the cause of the Democrats. He went about this, not by volunteering to canvass or phonebank, but by exercising his 2d Amendment Rights, as Angle urged him to, and taking aim at a pro-ACA vote, as Palin and the Congresswoman’s unsuccessful 2010 challenger urged him to.

    Sure, the shooter is, at some level, crazy. But aren’t they all? I joined the Army as a young man, for reasons that I can only describe now as crazy. Less crazy, arguably, than most of my peers, but still crazy. People don’t take up guns unless they are, at some level, crazy. But, in a world in which murderous crazy is not at all uncommon among young men, most young men nevertheless do not end up acting out fantasies common at that age. They are far more likely to to do so only if there is a rationale offered, and some specific target is pointed out to them as an ennobling object of their fantasies.

    In a world full of crazy young men, calling on them to use the 2d Amendment option should their side lose an election, has some level of culpability. But that culpability was just the same before this shooting as it is now. These politicians of the other party created a risk by encouraging young men with guns to channel their crazy in a certain direction. They created a rationale for young men with guns to act on a crazy that would otherwise likely have gone unexpressed. They would have been no more guilty had this shooting not happened as they are now that it has. But also no less guilty.

    Not a bit less guilty.

  351. 351.

    Citizen_X

    The fact that police have arrested one guy and are searching for another because they are suspected of being connected to the shooting pulls it right the fuck away from “maybe he’s just a lone crazy guy” and straight over to “right-wing terrorist conspiracy.”

    Other possibilities include “drug-gang conspiracy” and “left-wing terrorist conspiracy.” But only the first fits with previous threats.

  354. 354.

    MTiffany

    How long is it going to take for Michelle Bachmann to start claiming the shooting was a socialist plot to frame the tea party movement?

  358. 358.

    cleek

    from his YouTube channel, his favorite books include:
    Animal Farm, Brave New World, The Wizard Of OZ, Aesop Fables, The Odyssey, Alice Adventures Into Wonderland, Fahrenheit 451, Peter Pan, To Kill A Mockingbird, We The Living, Phantom Toll Booth, One Flew Over The Cuckoo’s Nest, Pulp,Through The Looking Glass, The Communist Manifesto, Siddhartha, The Old Man And The Sea, Gulliver’s Travels, Mein Kampf, The Republic, and Meno.

    anyone still think this was a teabagger?

  359. 359.

    Comrade Mary

    <a href="The shooter's name is Jared Lee Loughner. Here is his YouTube channel.“>His favourite video, made by someone with a different user name.

    I want you never fearing of wrongful incrimination by local police (cult leaders).
    __
    =|
    If there’s no flag in the constitution then the flag in the film is unknown.
    There’s no flag in the constitution.
    Therefore, the flag in the film is unknown.
    Burn every new and old flag that you see.
    Burn your flag!
    I bet you can imagine this in your mind with a faster speed.
    Watch this protest in reverse!
    Ask the local police; “What’s your illegal activity on duty?”.
    If you protest the government then there’s a new government from protesting.
    There’s not a new government from protesting.
    Thus, you aren’t protesting the government.
    There’s something important in this video: There’s no communication to anyone in this location.
    You shouldn’t be afraid of the stars.
    There’s a new bird on my right shoulder. The beak is two feet and lime green. The rarest bird on earth, there’s no feathers, but small grey scales all over the body. It’s with one large red eye with a light blue iris. The bird feet are the same as a woodpecker. This new bird and there’s only one, the gender is not female or male. The wings of this bird are beautiful; 3 feet wide with the shape of a bald eagle that you could die for. If you can see this bird then you will understand. You think this bird is able to chat about a government?
    I want you to imagine a comet or meteoroid coming through the atmosphere.
    On the other hand, welcome yourself to the desert: Maybe your ability to protest is from the brainwash of the current government structure.

  362. 362.

    Nethead Jay

    Just watcheed press conference live on MSNBC streaming. Surgery guy said she’s alive, has been operated on and may pull through though is still critical.

  364. 364.

    Comrade Mary

    Everything on his profile page about himself is written in the past tense. “I attended school: … My favorite interest was reading, and I studied grammar. Conscience dreams were a great study in college! … I had favorite books”.

    I think he expected to die in the attempt.

  365. 365.

    jinxtigr

    These facts need to be addressed STAT because others could be in danger also, too.

    Exactly. Others ARE in danger, and I don’t mean just the other names on Palin’s list. I said before and I’ll say again, just so people hear: Republicans are next in line to be in danger, should they fail to do things like freeze the debt limit etc.

    This is big, and this is serious, and this is not about traditional party politics, it is about insurgency in plain sight.

    I don’t believe using the same tactics right back is a civilized or acceptable response, but we god-damned well have to get a tactical view of the situation, because it’s totally insane to call this an isolated incident.

    In a post upthread, someone recounted the words of a military guy in a store, who overheard two women talking to the effect of ‘that’s what you get when you’re a liberal’.

    When people like that are out there, we have to face the situation as it exists, not flutter off into some pastel tragedyland of woe and vague weeping over the randomness of the world. I’m glad some people can give themselves over to fitting emotion but the next step from that is unthinking vengeance and that will not do…

    We have political terrorism in our country right now with people who hear of it and go ‘hah, that’s what you get’. Turning around and killing them and going ‘hah that’s what you get if you’re a teabagger’ is NOT going to be an acceptable response, for a variety of reasons.

    And try to remember that the Republicans who don’t follow orders are next in the crosshairs once all the liberals are killed… the old lines don’t really apply as much as you think right now….

  368. 368.

    cleek

    @Glen Tomkins:

    Nothing to speculate about
    …
    Of course this was a political killing.

    look at his YouTube page.

    it’s TimeCube-level crazy. there isn’t a bit of partisan politics there. all of his anti-government stuff is about mind-control and his fucked up paranoia.

    he is a crazy person, not a teabagger hitman following Palin’s subliminal commands.

  370. 370.

    AxelFoley

    @change:

    I bet its a disgruntled former staffer. He shot the staff too. A political assassin would just shoot the Congresswoman.

    The left is going to be disappointed that they can’t make political hay out of this poor woman’s death

    You PUNK MUTHAFUCKA. Go DIAF, bitch. Fuck you and your family.

    If this little bitch isn’t banned for this, Cole…

  371. 371.

    jonas

    First, CNN, NYT and other major outlets have not reported that Rep. Giffords had died and NPR has retracted it’s report from earlier that she did die. So as far as we know now, she’s in critical condition, but not dead yet. Second, virtually every early, first-hand “report” or “account” of a dramatic, violent incident is always sketchy and full of errors, including the description of the suspect (race, what he was wearing, etc.), how many shots were fired, whether there were one or more gunmen, how many wounded there were, etc. I’m sure it was utter pandemonium in the few minutes after Rep. Gifford went down and people’s perceptions and what they see are clouded by panic, fear and chaos.

    WE HAVE NO IDEA who this guy is or what his motives were. It could have been some mentally ill nut job for all we know (I think schizophrenic felons can carry up to two concealed weapons in Arizona). It could have been some distraught guy whose wife just left him and was going to have his house repossessed and had a grudge against the government for not doing more to stop foreclosures. Maybe it was some teabagger who decided to take out his liberal nemesis.

    There will be time enough for sorting out the political implications of this once we know something. Which at this point we don’t.

  372. 372.

    PaulW

    @cleek:

    Animal Farm, Brave New World, The Wizard Of OZ, Aesop Fables, The Odyssey, Alice Adventures Into Wonderland, Fahrenheit 451, Peter Pan, To Kill A Mockingbird, We The Living, Phantom Toll Booth, One Flew Over The Cuckoo’s Nest, Pulp,Through The Looking Glass, The Communist Manifesto, Siddhartha, The Old Man And The Sea, Gulliver’s Travels, Mein Kampf, The Republic, and Meno.

    Both the Manifesto and Mein Kampf on the reading list suggests he had a friend from college help put his personal library together.

  375. 375.

    JD Rhoades

    BorowitzReport says it best: “Let’s not rush to judgment and blame this on Glenn Beck. But for the record, Glenn Beck is an asshole.”

  377. 377.

    MTiffany

    @jinxtigr:

    “Republicans are next in line to be in danger, should they fail to do things like freeze the debt limit etc.”

    Good. I hope that the moster the Republicans created turns on them. Serves ’em fucking right if it were to happen.

  378. 378.

    Martin

    @cleek:

    he is a crazy person, not a teabagger hitman following Palin’s subliminal commands.

    Just need to point out that it’s damn hard to tell these things apart some days. Glenn Beck has been the nexus of the tea party, and he’s fucking crazy too.

  379. 379.

    Dave

    @cleek: But he WOULD be just the kind of person susceptible to talk about losing the country, our way of life going downhill…and needing to “correct” it.

    But hey, let’s keep pretending that Palin’s violent rhetoric has no effect on anyone.

  380. 380.

    eemom

    @amorphous:

    the fact that the behavior of dozens of powerful people in a major US political party makes such speculation not only easy but inevitable

    Excellent. That is the real point here, amidst all this to-speculate-or-not-to-speculate angst.

    And that is why the army of Palin.com is shitting its collective pants.

  382. 382.

    WarMunchkin

    Just thought I’d pass along that people are flooding the net with fake info about “Jared Laughner”. Including a brand new Facebook page that someone just made up in his name, stating that he was a Tea Party member and that he was a fan of Sarah Palin.

  383. 383.

    Karen

    @change:
    A nine year old girl died!

    You’ve only proved to me that right wing nutbars like you have no heart.

    One would think for once in your life that you could be a decent human being but I guess if you don’t have a shred of human decency you’re not capable of compassion.

    After all, it’s not your child.

  386. 386.

    gwangung

    @cleek: I dunno. When one of the two major political parties make violence an acceptable political behavior, does it really matter if this particular gunman is partisan?

  387. 387.

    Fuzz

    Don’t know if it’s true but the AP and HuffPo are saying that unfortunately the one death is a child and another source is saying that a staffer is critically hurt and might not make it either. The good news is that as of last check her doctor said he’s as optimistic as he could be given the situation, so there is some hope. Lots of varying reports coming in.

  389. 389.

    amorphous

    Sarah Palin’s Facebook page reads like FreeRepublic, but without the anonymity. The mind boggles that people are overly willing to attach their names to such vitriol.

  391. 391.

    Ed Marshall

    @cleek:

    No, I won’t pay debts in a currency that isn’t backed by gold or silver isn’t ideological? He’s nuts, no doubt about it, but this was a political assassination.

  394. 394.

    JCT

    @Dave:

    But hey, let’s keep pretending that Palin’s violent rhetoric has no effect on anyone.

    Or for that matter, from her opponent (Jesse Kelly) in the last election:

    “Get on Target for Victory in November. Help remove Gabrielle Giffords from office. Shoot a fully automatic M-16 with Jesse Kelly.”

    It’s not just “words” folks.

    Just heard it was a straight-thru shot, there’s hope here guys — they got her under quickly as well. Send those prayers and strong thoughts.

  395. 395.

    IM

    A mad man, fine. But shouldn’t the violence of mad man be directed at all kind of politicians? Not just the left? And anybody standing near them?

  396. 396.

    Citizen_X

    @Ed Marshall: Ah. So there you go: he’s crazy AND he’s right-wing. Like these are mutually exclusive items?

    And for those who doubt the “right-wing” part, look at the last 30 seconds or so of the video Ed linked to: pure Beckian goldbug/anti-federal-govt. horseshit.

  398. 398.

    burnspbesq

    @Joseph Nobles:

    a Glock 9mm was recovered from the scene.

    Interesting. The standard magazine on a Glock 19 is 15 shots. News reports I have heard are that 18 people were shot. Did the shooter actually reload?

  399. 399.

    Ed Marshall

    He’s specifically Glenn Beck nuts now that I think about it. He had to have been a Beck fan.

  400. 400.

    JPL

    @RedKitten: My right wing friend already accused me of being irrational by bringing up Palin’s crosshairs symbol because obviously Sarah didn’t want this person dead. My response was simply that she and I can discuss difference means of taxation and debate but that type of free speech is blocked by some who decide that crosshairs, target practice fundraisers and death panels blocks debate.

    The fuckers on Fox and hate radio is taking my right to free speech.

  401. 401.

    Comrade Mary

    Good news that the Congresswoman is expected to survive, but my heart is breaking over the dead child.

    I don’t think the kind of deep disturbance shown on the YT page means that Loughner could not also have been acting out of political motives that map onto Tea Baggers pretty well, but it does make it a lot less likely. I don’t know how the second arrested man and the third suspect fit into this. It’s possible that this will result in nothing and we have a lone, deeply disturbed young man, or there could have been a political conspiracy among three people displaying various levels of sanity.

  403. 403.

    cleek

    @Dave:

    But hey, let’s keep pretending that Palin’s violent rhetoric has no effect on anyone.

    WTF. where did i say otherwise?

    but that’s irrelevant here, because we have no evidence, at this point, that he even knows who Palin is.

  404. 404.

    joe from Lowell

    When John F. Kennedy flew to Texas, he was greeted by “Wanted” posters accusing him of treason, posted by right-wing, anti-communist segregationists. He was then murdered by a communist.

    Creating an atmosphere of violence and fear in our politics has effects on people across the spectrum, and directs the energy of crazy people in the direction of politics.

  405. 405.

    jinxtigr

    Good. I hope that the moster the Republicans created turns on them. Serves ‘em fucking right if it were to happen.

    No, I don’t agree that ‘serves ’em fucking right’ is acceptable. I don’t vote in favor of death penalty for rightwing douchebaggery.

    The monster IS turning on them, and what’s more they’re liable to still try and control it or benefit from it, because benefiting from political event has been all that they do all their lives. They’ve gotta be made to take some responsibility, but we do not do that via lynchings.

    And people loudly pointing out the craziness of the point man here- do you seriously expect the point man of the movement, taking personal action, risking or sacrificing his life for ‘noble goals’ fed him by other, leveler heads, is going to himself be a fucking banker or accountant?

    He exists in the context of a society.

    Do you seriously think THAT guy is the one who’s best described with ‘the banality of evil’?

    The banality of evil is all the people in Arizona and elsewhere who said or thought, “good, that’s what liberals get”. You don’t sentence them to death for the crimes of the point guy, but you have to take them into account and figure out what to do about them. They make him possible.

  407. 407.

    Comrade Luke

    @cleek:

    Sarah Palin’s minions are busy scrubbing her sites as we speak. They seem to be assigning motives as well.

  409. 409.

    stuckinred

    @burnspbesq:

    For those who want high capacity magazines but don’t want to actually buy extra magazines, we now carry the MagEx Magazine Extension for your Glock® 21. Using no tools at all, the MagEx can easily convert your pistol magazine to hold 30 rounds, giving you more firepower. Manufactured by Magpul®, the MagEx is made from incredibly durable fiber-filled polyamide composite for years of use.

  410. 410.

    tammanycall

    Is everyone certain that the youtube page belonged to the shooter? Why would he misspell his own surname? Or is the spelling reported in the media inaccurate?

  411. 411.

    WarMunchkin

    @Joseph Nobles: Is it uh, Jared “Loughner” or “Laughner”. I know the YT channel says from Tuscon, but TPM is saying “Laughner”, and if that’s true, then Jared Loughner with an o is going to have a very bad day.

  412. 412.

    Fergus Wooster

    @burnspbesq:

    Interesting. The standard magazine on a Glock 19 is 15 shots. News reports I have heard are that 18 people were shot. Did the shooter actually reload?

    Sheriff deputy said he had an extended mag.

  414. 414.

    burnspbesq

    @burnspbesq:

    Tucson Citizen is reporting that the shooter had what it calls “an extended magazine.”

    There is a 33-shot magazine available for the Glock 19. One can safely conclude that shooter was planning to do a lot of damage to a lot of people.

    And yes, I am assuming it was a 19, rather than a 17. The 19 is more easily concealed but still has more than enough stopping power for mowing down unarmed civilians.

  415. 415.

    AxelFoley

    @cleek:

    but that’s irrelevant here, because we have no evidence, at this point, that he even knows who Palin is.

    Really? GTFO with that shit.

    Who the fuck doesn’t know who Palin is?

  416. 416.

    gil mann

    @cleek:

    Props for swimming against the thread on this one. It always creeps me out when libs find that teensy shred of justification they need to bust out their own irresponsible violent rhetoric.

  418. 418.

    Jeremy

    Jared Laughner was a member of the Tea Party. And he lists Sarah Palin as someone who inspires him, according to his Facebook profile.

  420. 420.

    cleek

    @Ed Marshall:

    No, I won’t pay debts in a currency that isn’t backed by gold or silver isn’t ideological?

    i didn’t say he had no ideology. i said there isn’t any partisan rhetoric on his YouTube page. there’s a whole lot of incoherent crazy there, but it’s not really left or right.

    right after he says he won’t pay in currency not backed by gold or silver he says he won’t trust in god. and then “what government’s if words don’t have meaning.” that’s not very teabaggery. neither is listing the Communist Manifesto as one of your favorite books. neither is “conscious dreaming”.

  424. 424.

    gwangung

    Creating an atmosphere of violence and fear in our politics has effects on people across the spectrum, and directs the energy of crazy people in the direction of politics

    This it, exactly.

  425. 425.

    AxelFoley

    @gil mann:

    Props for swimming against the thread on this one. It always creeps me out when libs find that teensy shred of justification they need to bust out their own irresponsible violent rhetoric.

    Fuck you, bitch. We’re not all libs here.

  426. 426.

    Comrade Mary

    @Jeremy: That’s a brand new, fake page, right down to the misspelling of the name.

    I took a look at Palin’s FB condolences and the comments that follow. I obviously hate the smug and defensive reactions of her fans, but while some sensible Palin opponents are showing righteous and measured disapproval, others are piling on with verbal abuse and nasty cracks about her family. Not Helping. Let’s not do our bit to raise the crazy.

  427. 427.

    Comrade Luke

    @gil mann:

    Teensy. Yea, right.

    And the fact that you assume that anyone who thinks this whole thing is more than just a random occurrence must be liberal says a fuck of a lot more about you than anyone else.

  430. 430.

    batgirl

    @Jeremy: There are a lot of false facebook profiles popping up out there. Crazy people on the left and right creating Internet profiles to “prove” that he is a leftist or a tea partier. Be careful.

    We just don’t know yet. What we do know is that people are dead, including a child. This is a tragedy.

  433. 433.

    Joseph Nobles

    Someone who says she knows Loughner from high school and college says he was a leftie, very “philosophical”, very reclusive after dropping out of college, and had met Giffords before, finding her “stupid & unintelligent.”

  435. 435.

    Anya

    @wag: I think this is a mistaken identity. A person who lists, To Kill a Mockingbird and Animal Farm, as his favorite books, cannot be a right wing nut.

  437. 437.

    Gordon, the Big Express Engine

    Let’s say this guy was some non-political loon. I find it interesting that this incident has apparently caused Sarah Palin to scrub her facebook page… Think about what that says about her.

  438. 438.

    Dave

    From Loughner’s video:

    “I won’t pay debt with a currency that’s not backed by gold and silver!”

    yeah, that sounds NOTHING like what the Right has been injecting into the American political bloodstream…

    A crazy person driven to violence by right-wing violent political speech. Sorry, but that makes them responsible even if he wasn’t a Teabagger himself.

  439. 439.

    BGinCHI

    The right, from various media and elected and unelected figures, uses rhetoric of violence and direct appeals to violence. And then someone takes it upon themselves to use violence against a congressperson. Even if this person wasn’t directly motivated, this has still happened in a context that has been created by the right.

    So saying you’re “sorry” or whatever does not undo your participation in this climate of fear and violence.

    The right needs to take responsibility for what it has been advocating.

  440. 440.

    Mark S.

    @Anya:

    A person who lists, To Kill a Mockingbird and Animal Farm, as his favorite books, cannot be a right wing nut.

    Of course such a person can. Ann Coulter has said Animal Farm is one of her favorite books. It’s an allegory about Stalinism, after all.

  443. 443.

    MrTemecula

    I’m afraid he’s both a nut and political. If this is the suspect, here is the political part of a video from his youtube channel.

    link

    Glenn Beck fan, too

    link

    link

    My thoughts are with victims.

  444. 444.

    MTiffany

    @Comrade Luke:

    Sarah Palin’s minions are busy scrubbing her sites as we speak. They seem to be assigning motives as well.

    Anyone happen to know what the latin phrase “mens rea” means?

  445. 445.

    Fallsroad

    @cleek:

    I note Mein Kampf is listed just below the Communist Manifesto, but you saw no reason to put that in bold.

    Makes for a rather contradictory and confusing picture, no?

  446. 446.

    Glen Tomkins

    @cleek:

    Actually, his thinking is generally libertarian and tends strongly to Constitution in Exile. There is a specific reference to the “10th Section” of the Constitution, so he’s a Tenther as well.

    In sum, a teabagger.

    Crazy? Sure.

    Aren’t they all? As far as political “thinking” goes, is what he says on this site any more extreme than the bagger mainstream? Perhaps less coherent than the bagger mainstream. Very clearly more willing than their mainstream to carry their thinking to its logical conclusion in action.

    But “not a teabagger”? Hardly.

  447. 447.

    Judas Escargot

    @joe from Lowell:

    Creating an atmosphere of violence and fear in our politics has effects on people across the spectrum, and directs the energy of crazy people in the direction of politics.

    All the more reason people should think twice before using crosshairs to mark ‘targets’ on a map, or sporting a gun in your political photo: It energizes the crazies. Many of us have been saying this for years.

    I don’t give a fuck about which side of the ‘spectrum’ little Jared was on at this point: One side used violent imagery to energize its base en masse, backed by Fox.

    One side.

  448. 448.

    PurpleGirl

    @Bnut: I don’t see most of the ads, thanks to NoScript. Animated ads bother me quite a bit so I kill stuff that needs Flash or Java. It’s a pain sometimes to give temporary permission for stuff but it’s better than seeing the ads.

  449. 449.

    Glinda

    @tammanycall: That is one of the funniest comments ever

    Why would he misspell his own surname?

    I gather you haven’t experienced first-hand the inaccuracy of the media.

  452. 452.

    KDP

    My thoughts and prayers are with the friends and family of those present or involved in this horrific incident. I am saddened by this tragic event.

  454. 454.

    Slide

    a quote from the shooter

    “The majority of the citizens of the United States of America have never read the United States of America’s Constitution. You don’t have to accept the federalist laws. Nonetheless, read the United States of America’s Constitution to apprehend all of the current treasonous laws. …. In conclusion, reading the second United States Constitution, I can’t trust the current goverment because o fthe ratifications: The government is implying mind control and brainwash on the people by controlling grammar.

  456. 456.

    sukabi

    @Poopyman: Dr.’s news conference at the hospital where they were being treated said the 9yr old was a girl… probably won’t know for sure until things settle down in the next day or so…

  457. 457.

    suzanne

    My aunt, who lives in New York (where I was born and lived for about half my childhood), called this morning, screaming at me and my family to, and I quote, “get the fuck out of Arizona!”.

    I’m REALLY fucking tempted right now.

  458. 458.

    frankdawg

    @MTiffany:

    mens rea

    literally = guilty mind. Its a legal term that basically says you can’t be guilty if you can’t comprehend what you were doing.

    2 years of latin, good for something

  461. 461.

    Judas Escargot

    @Slide:

    I’ve been watching some of these, too: Definitely smacks of Word Salad.

    I’ll just repeat what someone else said: How the fuck did this kid get his hands on a gun?

  462. 462.

    cleek

    @Fallsroad:

    I note Mein Kampf is listed just below the Communist Manifesto, but you saw no reason to put that in bold.

    i didn’t bold it because Mein Kampf doesn’t really fit into either left or right, in the current US political system. it’s really more of a historical document, these days.

    Makes for a rather contradictory and confusing picture, no?

    it sure does. which is why i don’t really see anything that makes me think he’s a teabagger or Palinite. he just seems like a crazy, and deeply confused young person.

    all of this isn’t to say i don’t think it’s impossible that he is a teabagger in addition to being crazy. but i ain’t seen any actual evidence yet.

  463. 463.

    suzanne

    Fox News is saying, “Imagine what poor Governor Brewer has been through today.”

    FUCK YOU.

  465. 465.

    MTiffany

    @Judas Escargot:

    I’ll just repeat what someone else said: How the fuck did this kid get his hands on a gun?

    I think it’s a safe bet we can thank the NRA and their diligent work to “protect” The Only Amendment That Matters, the Second.

    @suzanne:

    Fox News is saying, “Imagine what poor Governor Brewer has been through today.”

    Yes, poor Governor Brewer is sad that the assassination attempt failed, and now will not be able to appoint a Teatard Republican to fill the vacancy. Not that I’m implying a Governor who would murder her own citizens by denying funding for organ transplants would sink to the level of plotting political assassinations or anything…

  467. 467.

    Dave

    If that youtube video ID is accurate, Loughner is also a military recruit. He makes reference to being a recruit at MEPS in Phoenix. He also says you have to read the Constitution to apprehend “all of the current treasonous laws”

    yeah…no right-wing influence here…

  468. 468.

    Poopyman

    … and now the AP is saying “at least five people” were killed. Since things are still so fluid I’m taking that with a teensy grain of salt.

  471. 471.

    IronyAbounds

    @cleek:

    i didn’t bold it because Mein Kampf doesn’t really fit into either left or right

    You fucking disingenuous idiot. Like the Communist Manifesto isn’t anything more than a historical document these days. Gee, it’s trotted out all the time in typical political discussions these days. Just swallow that bullshit puke you’re spouting, you dickwad of the highest order.

    I live in District 8. I know the vile right wingers and the odious bile they spew here. A gunsight over Giffords name is red meat to that cackle of mindless hyenas.

  472. 472.

    Poopyman

    Oh yeah, also from the AP article:

    U.S. officials who provided his name to the AP spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to release it publicly.

    THEN WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU SAYING ANYTHING, ASSHOLES??!

  473. 473.

    JCT

    @suzanne: Are you kidding? Really??? Poor Brewer? The same one who has been having a field day throwing all the gun control laws (such that they were) out the window of late? Not to mention saving a few million dollars by letting prospective and listed transplant patients on Medicaid die?

    BTW, I think there are only 3 states that have concealed carry without a permit and AZ is now one of them.

    This has been a truly terrible day and to think that Fox feels “bad” for that bitch Brewer really just caps it off.

  474. 474.

    frankdawg

    @suzanne: \

    Arizona hell, I have been encouraging my kids to get the fuck out of this sinking ship for 6 years now. Its going to get a lot worse & we have too many guns & too many crazies.

  475. 475.

    IM

    @arguingwithsignposts:

    But of course there is an extreme right in the US that reads Mein Kampf: Neo-nazis, KKK and so on.

    And they do blend over into the Militia movement, Posse Comitatus etc.

    Now in the nineties these kind of people, while right wing, were obviously to right of the republican party.

    But now?

  476. 476.

    Judas Escargot

    @suzanne:

    Yes, fuck Fox. And fuck all who enable them.

    Watching Gov. Brewer’s speech/press conference now. To her credit, a calm and classy response. Much better than Palin’s IMO.

    I do wish there was a stronger “violence is never the answer” message there (and Palin had none of that at all in her response), though. I am absolutely no fan of Boehner, but at least he was right out in front of things with that.

  477. 477.

    Fallsroad

    @cleek:

    Mein Kampf is a political manifesto, every bit as much as the Communist Manifesto. Hitler basically laid out his plans for Germany in it. Then he seized power and enacted that agenda. To call it simply a “historical document” while simultaneously highlighting the Communist Manifesto as proof the guy isn’t a Teabagger is beyond disingenuous.

    I know nothing of the guy. If any of that youtube stuff is actually his, he sounds crazy, and yes, there is a lot of right wing crazy mixed in – trust me, I live in Oklahoma, which is now completely in the hands of Republicans (first time in state history that party holds both house of the legislature and the governorship) of the kind who are going to enact every wacko right wing wet dream legislation you’ve ever heard of, and a few bits you haven’t.

    I do know which party has been content to employ and encourage violent rhetoric in opposition to specific legislation and in campaigns against candidates from the other party. That dynamic has all gone in one direction. Context matters, no matter where the ensuing craziness it ignites comes from politically.

  478. 478.

    suzanne

    @JCT: No, I am NOT kidding. I’ve been flipping through the news channels, and Fox just made me so fucking ill. I switched back to CNN.

    Poor Brewer my ASS.

    In her press conference, Brewer kept blathering about how Giffords is her personal friend and “never played partisan politics”.

    Vomit.

  479. 479.

    Legalize

    Thank goodness, MSNBC is dutifully explaining to us that sometimes crazy people just do crazy things, and this is sometimes the price we pay for a free and open society, via GOPer Congressman Trent Franks. Franks very graciously informed me about the threats that jihadists pose to “soft targets” like Congressman. Dude got about 5 minutes of breathless airtime to dispel any notion that this could have been politically motivated.

  480. 480.

    Villago Delenda Est

    U.S. officials who provided his name to the AP spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to release it publicly.

    Yet, they did indeed release it publicly.

    They’re just cowards.

  481. 481.

    cleek

    @arguingwithsignposts:
    yeah, really.

    i know it’s fun (for some) to call the GOP “Nazis”, but they really aren’t. and Hitler might fit a bit better on the right than on the left by today’s standards), but it’s not like reading him is going to shed any light on modern conservatism.

    we may disagree. on that. i don’t mind.

    @IronyAbounds:
    well argued!

  483. 483.

    wag

    @cleek:

    i didn’t bold it because Mein Kampf doesn’t really fit into either left or right, in the current US political system. it’s really more of a historical document, these days.

    Bullshit.

    I will bet that Mein Kampf outsells the Communist Manifesto 5:1 in this country.

  484. 484.

    Fallsroad

    @cleek:

    If Mein Kampf seems so out of place in modern US politics, why go to the trouble of highlighting the equally outdated (by your logic) Communist Manifesto from the same reading list as proof of anything?

    You’ve invalidated your entire point.

    Neat trick.

  485. 485.

    cleek

    @wag:

    I will bet that Mein Kampf outsells the Communist Manifesto 5:1 in this country.

    i have no idea if it does or not. but what would that prove either way?

  486. 486.

    wag

    @cleek:

    i have no idea if it does or not. but what would that prove either way?

    It would show which book has more of an impact on our current fucked up political climate.

  487. 487.

    RalfW

    18 people were shot by one person with (it appears) one gun.

    The National Rifle Association is also implicated in this tragedy. Their obsession with protecting the ability of citizens to own guns that can wreak extreme havoc is a major, major source of potential destabilization and death in our country.

    I’m OK with people owning a hunting rifle and/or a shotgun. And I know those guns can kill people too. But a 9mm Glock pistol with extended ammo? It’s a people-killer thru-and-thru and has no place in a decent society.

    We don’t currently live in a decent society, but if we ever wish to?…

  488. 488.

    arguingwithsignposts

    @cleek:
    i think i get your point, but let’s be honest – everything on that list is “historical” by most standards. I’m calling bullshit on the fact that the guy even *read* the CM or MK. They are usually on lists because people think it looks cool. I’d be more impressed if the guy had read “Even Cowgirls Get the Blues” or the latest Twilight.

  490. 490.

    IronyAbounds

    @cleek:

    well argued!

    Here’s another argument: go fuck your ass with a splintery broomstick.

    Like I said, I live in District 8 and have constant contact with the mindless hatred that is expressed for Giffords by the Teatards that live here, even the sane ones. When Giffords’ opponent does an ad with him sitting with an automatic weapon inviting people to go shooting with him, you get a good idea of the mindset that exists. For you to argue that rhetoric isn’t likely a major factor in pushing an obvious nutjob over the edge illustrates a complete lack of intellectual honesty.

  491. 491.

    cleek

    @Fallsroad:

    If Mein Kampf seems so out of place in modern US politics, why go to the trouble of highlighting the equally outdated (by your logic) Communist Manifesto from the same reading list as proof of anything?

    “outdated” ? don’t think i said anything about that. but, yes, they are both outdated. i don’t think i implied otherwise.

    but, let’s not get carried away here – deeply analyzing his book list deeply is pretty silly, since, given the word salad on his YouTube vids, he probably didn’t understand a word of either Mien Kampf or c.Manifesto. the reason i bolded Marx on the list is that saying you like Marx is something no self-respecting teabagger would ever do. it’s such a huge political signal these days. Mien Kampf just doesn’t seem to carry the partisan baggage that Marx does – didn’t strike me as saying much of anything w/r/t teabaggery.

  492. 492.

    Moesha

    Dana Bash on CNN was just talking about how this is a wake-up call to both parties and “maybe even the blogosphere, although that’s hard to do.

  493. 493.

    The Populist

    @cleek:

    Prescott Bush and many enlightened cons of their day rooted Hitler on with support both financial and moral until we went into the war.

    To me, the arguments that Hitler was somehow a s-list lib is ridiculous. Hitler demanded loyalty from the country’s elite. If they did not swear oath to the party, they were done and would lose everything.

    Gee, seems to me this approach sounds familiar in light of the way the GOP does business with elite rich folks.

    Point of background: I am one of those people who would have seen my taxes go up had Obama allowed the tax cuts to lapse. I would not have cared if I paid another 3%. So before you accuse me of something, know where my mindset is.

  496. 496.

    The Populist

    @IronyAbounds:

    I live in a heavily GOP district and I can tell you the people I know despise liberals in ways where they almost talk of eliminating them. I get they mean politically, but sometimes this assinine thinking leads to tragedies like this.

  497. 497.

    Fallsroad

    @cleek:

    This is deliberately obtuse. Out of place, outdated, whatever. Your clear implication was that the Communist Manifesto being present on a nutjob’s reading list is somehow proof of something, but Mein Kampf, a mere “historical document” is not.

    That was your argument.

    Feel free to go back and read the post in which you highlighted the Communist Manifesto as proof the shooter isn’t a Teabagger, then follow your own convoluted justification for doing so.

    And Mein Kampf doesn’t “carry political weight?” It is the holy bible of the white power movement, which has many more adherents than any violent Communist organization in America, if such animal even exists (and quite possibly the American Communist Party itself).

    You’ve lost the plot.

    Deliberately obtuse.

    I’m out.

  498. 498.

    The Populist

    @Judas Escargot:

    She was classy but I wish she’d tone down rhetoric w/r/t beheadings on the border.

    She’s also guilty of allowing innocent people to die due to her cheap cuts in the medical benefits for transplants.

  500. 500.

    Judas Escargot

    @IronyAbounds:

    For you to argue that rhetoric isn’t likely a major factor in pushing an obvious nutjob over the edge illustrates a complete lack of intellectual honesty.

    This.

    Show me a few pics of Dem candidates sporting military-grade firearms in full Cammies in the last election, and I’ll take the “they all do it” bullshit a little more seriously.

  501. 501.

    The Populist

    @Fallsroad:

    This kid was also talking about our money being fake without gold backing it. THAT is a teabag talking point.

    Just because the kid had Marx on his reading list does not imply his political sympathies lean that way.

  503. 503.

    The Populist

    @cleek:

    The fact he has Mein Kampf AND the communist manifesto proves he may be well researched (as in know your enemy?).

    Mein Kampf is still relevant to many people these days so you are wrong dude.

  504. 504.

    Shalimar

    @JCT:

    This has been a truly terrible day and to think that Fox feels “bad” for that bitch Brewer really just caps it off.

    Brewer is on their “team”. Who else do they have to feel bad for in this situation? All of the people like Gifford who are on the other team aren’t really human beings so it would be weird to show compassion for them. I wish I were joking, but years of exposure to Limbaugh-listening family members have left me deeply saddened by the ease with which their hatred is channeled.

  505. 505.

    jinxtigr

    If you’ve read the book ‘The Authoritarians‘ by Bob Altermeyer, or ‘The True Believer‘ by Eric Hoffer, the guy’s being a liberal communist rightwinger Nazi-sympathizer makes sense.

    It’s NORMAL for the shock troops of a political movement to be the guys who are so unstable that they can have pasts even from the diametric opposite politically. The extremes of the wings meet in the middle, and always have.

    The report that this guy has been a ‘liberal’ (thx Sully) do not contradict the idea that he is NOW a teabagger prepared to kill liberals. It’s rather like his real position is ‘extreme nutbag’.

    Disavowing him from being a tea partier is pretty ridiculous as they are MADE of extremists, and fit that profile very well.

  506. 506.

    The Populist

    @Judas Escargot:

    I’m there with you. I just can’t help but roll my eyes when I see her. I wish I wouldn’t do that, but people like her are hard to feel for when they are playing political games 99.999% of the time.

    I find it funny that the right are the ones that tolerate Beck and Limbo yet get all worked up by Olbermann and Maddow…yet…I do not see Keith or Rachel using end times arguments and calling others enemies. Keith uses snark and Maddow uses facts as weapons. Beck uses race baiting and Limbo uses us vs them type framework to sell their b.s.

  507. 507.

    cleek

    @The Populist:

    Hitler demanded loyalty from the country’s elite. If they did not swear oath to the party, they were done and would lose everything….Gee, seems to me this approach sounds familiar in light of the way the GOP does business with elite rich folks.

    i think that’s pretty much backwards from how the elite work int his country: our elite tell the govt what to do, not the other way around.

    @Fallsroad:

    To call it simply a “historical document” while simultaneously highlighting the Communist Manifesto as proof the guy isn’t a Teabagger is beyond disingenuous.

    i’ll repeat myself: no self-respecting teabagger would put Marx on his favorite book list. but Mien Kampf isn’t really as left/right charged as Marx. it’s a different kind of signal. that’s all my bolding meant.

  508. 508.

    The Populist

    @jinxtigr:

    They will always take what they want from any ideology. The one they tend to act upon is the one that hits closest to home.

    In this kid’s case, he may have been a fan of Marx but maybe shifted to Hitler and then guys like Beck who push the “buy gold because the dollar is worthless” type arguments.

    He sees dems as enablers of banks due to the bailouts yet won’t use his brain to see the RIGHT are the enablers of the very people that he says is keeping him down.

  510. 510.

    The Populist

    @cleek:

    Cleek, it’s the same concept. Hitler oversaw an oligarchy. For all we knew, the elite had some input since MANY took advantage of slave labor with the jews.

    The powerful elite allowed Hitler to come to power. You can argue my point, and you have one yourself, BUT the fact remains: Hitler supported power in the hands of a few so they would not challenge his authority. The right in this country take orders from an elite oligarchy that may have LEARNED that it isn’t important to have a figurehead in charge.

  511. 511.

    The Populist

    I might add that oligarchies DO NOT WORK. Cleek, do you think we have free markets in America? We do not. The powerful elite control everything and can put any small business down that challenges their market share.

  512. 512.

    Fallsroad

    @cleek:

    but Mien Kampf isn’t really as left/right charged as Marx

    Only if you are Jonah Goldberg.

    You are completely and utterly wrong about this. Mein Kampf is the foundational touchstone for extreme, right wing white power groups in the US, groups that have committed violent crimes in my lifetime to achieve their absurd political ends. Mein Kampf is, without question, a right wing ideological play book. I’ve read it (turgid as it is).

    Give it a go some time, look into the fascist abyss, and quit spouting nonsense. If anything, Mein Kampf is a more volatile and relevant text in terms of modern American politics than the Communist Manifesto.

    Neither of us know what meaning can be derived by the presence of both books on a violent killer’s purported reading list, but your assertions about their presence and relevance to current US politics are unfounded and vacuous.

  513. 513.

    cleek

    @IronyAbounds:

    For you to argue that rhetoric isn’t likely a major factor in pushing an obvious nutjob over the edge illustrates a complete lack of intellectual honesty.

    Q: you know what else illustrates a complete lack of intellectual honesty?

    A: claiming i’m arguing a point that i’m not, then doing a victory dance when you prove how wrong that point is.

    i’m arguing that there’s not really any evidence (so far at least) that says he’s a teabagger. what “pushed him over the edge” is also 100% speculation on your part. there aren’t any details out about that (that i’ve seen). maybe you’ll turn out to be right, but it will be entirely by accident because right now, you’ve got nothing but your own imagination.

  515. 515.

    Wile E. Quixote

    @cleek:

    Nice selective highlighting. Of course if you weren’t a dishonest lump of shit you might also have highlighted Mein Kampf and Ayn Rand’s We the Living. Of course since you’re a dishonest lump of shit you didn’t.

  516. 516.

    Cain

    I’m with cleek here, let’s not try to frame the debate into right wing hackery just yet.

    cain

  517. 517.

    Larv

    I tend to agree with Cleek. I don’t think TCM and Mein Kampf are really similar in terms of political signaling. You can find liberals (not politicians, but liberals on blogs) willing to defend Marx and TCM. But I suspect even on Red State you’ll have a hard time finding anyone willing to come out in support of Mein Kampf.

    In any case, his list of favorite books is less a reading list than a declaration that he’s a Deep Thinker and Willing to Defy Convention. It reeks of grandiosity. The books appear to be chosen to shock and/or impress more than to give any insight into his actual thoughts.

  518. 518.

    Fallsroad

    @cleek:

    Probably not, and you are deliberately obscuring your own, original point (highlighting the Communist Manifesto on that list as proof of something, but the presence of Mein Kampf as somehow utterly meaningless) while choosing to mischaracterize my responses.

    This indicates bad faith on your part.

    Good bye.

  519. 519.

    cleek

    @Wile E. Quixote:

    you might also have highlighted Mein Kampf and Ayn Rand’s We the Living.

    i admit i didn’t recognize “We The Living” as even being a Rand book. i don’t have her bibliography memorized. haven’t read it, so i’m even sure what it’s supposed to signify.

    i’ve said enough about Mien Kampf already.

    and, one more time: i bolded Marx because your typical teabagger doesn’t claim to like Marx.

    Of course since you’re a dishonest lump of shit you didn’t.

    duly noted.

  520. 520.

    cleek

    @Fallsroad:

    Probably not, and you are deliberately obscuring your own, original point (highlighting the Communist Manifesto on that list as proof of something, but the presence of Mein Kampf as somehow utterly meaningless)

    holy crap. could you people please stop inventing positions for me to defend?

    i’m not trying to say it’s meaningless. i’m trying to say teabaggers and Marx don’t mix (is that controversial?). i’m not saying he’s a lefty or that white power people don’t like Hitler or that Hitler wasn’t an authoritarian and that there are authoritarians on the right or any of that. i’m saying that if he’s a teabagger, he’s not a very devout one.

  521. 521.

    cleek

    @Larv:

    In any case, his list of favorite books is less a reading list than a declaration that he’s a Deep Thinker and Willing to Defy Convention. It reeks of grandiosity. The books appear to be chosen to shock and/or impress more than to give any insight into his actual thoughts.

    right. it sounds like the reading list of a young guy who doesn’t have strong a political identity, but has recently read some Important Books and, for whatever reason, thinks he likes them – and wants other to know it.

  522. 522.

    eemom

    @cleek:

    don’t have a piece in this board game, but note that it sucks how folks here will go full-throttle name-calling pile-on against a regular commenter just because of one unpopular position. Been that, done there.

    A little perspective, people. On occasion, reasonable minds actually CAN differ.

  524. 524.

    ogliberal

    @cleek: This guy was just a nutjob. I wouldn’t consider the LaRouchies to be liberals but the man himself is a Democrat and there ain’t too many liberal Republicans…or any. The full-blown Paulites support stuff that no self-respecting Republican would ever get behind. While some of his former classmates may have called the dude a leftie, gold talk, the mind control stuff, the illegitimate government stuff…that’s far-right (way beyond the baggers…well, not all of them) wingnut stuff. Hard to be a “liberal” if the wingnut definition of liberal today is “lovers of Big Government”. This guy obviously hated “Big Government”. And he doesn’t strike me as a gun law supporter, another think that supposedly defines “liberal”. But I always wouldn’t jump to the conclusion that he was a Palin fan either.

    In other words, it’s hard to classify this guy as anything other than a nut. But his actions are clearly politically motivated, even if he doesn’t fit cleanly into a left or right bucket.

    Btw, listing a book you disagree with 100% on your list of “favorite” books doesn’t mean you can’t be completely the opposite of what that book promotes. I’d bet that a large number of teabaggers today have read and re-read Saul Alinsky. And I’ll bet some of them actually think he has good ideas (have to be honest with you know…I don’t know what Alinsky stands for and only heard his name after the wingers started attaching it to Obama in 2008), just that they’d use them to further their right-wing as opposed to left-wing goals. Ditto TCM and MK – wingnuts on either side can like the tactics and strategies while not agreeing with the end goal of the author. Both Stalin and Hitler employed the “Big Lie” and they despised each others’ politics.

  526. 526.

    Jinchi

    I’ll repeat myself: no self-respecting teabagger would put Marx on his favorite book list. but Mien Kampf isn’t really as left/right charged as Marx.

    Sorry, but who other than a teabagger would have Marx on his list. Or Mein Kampf, for that matter.

    Both are on Glenn Beck’s reading list.

    Plus you’ve got the kid’s idiotic comment about the gold standard.

  529. 529.

    moe99

    John, what do you do when your crew (the ones who are permitted to initiates posts, vs. the commentariat rabble) ignores your advice?

  530. 530.

    PurpleGirl

    @ogliberal: Saul Alinsky was a community organizer; he founded the Industrial Areas Foundation, which teaches people how to organize for political and social action. Generally a leftist, many considered him a Marxist-Leninist.

    I took community organizing training from the Industrial Areas Foundation in the mid-1980s through the church I was then attending. ETA: Among the principles of organizing as IAF taught them, you need to be part of a community institution to make consistent action possible. At the time, IAF was training many people from religious groups (Christian and Jewish) to fight for affordable housing in NYC.

  531. 531.

    Morbo

    If anything, this guy sounds like a proto-tea-partier. A young guy who thought he had the whole world figured out at 18, plugged in to the internet, voted for Ron Paul in ’08 accordingly. None of these things are terribly uncommon, but it looks like he also happens to be violently insane.

    And boy if Google ads doesn’t have its priorities straight, here we are flooded with concealed carry and professional firearms training ads. Thanks, Google!

  532. 532.

    ogliberal

    @PurpleGirl: Thanks. I knew he was considered a leftist – don’t know to what extent or what his methods were. I consider myself pretty well read on politics and the guy was new to me in 2008 – seems like the right-wing was looking for any way to somehow label both Dem frontrunners – Clinton and Obama – as commies by associating them with Alinsky. But I have seen righties talk approvingly of his methods even though they don’t agree with his goals. Basically, “read Alinsky and do what he says but do it to further right-wing policies.”

    I stopped reading conservative blogs after they went full on bananas about two years ago but if you checked the log files from my ip address for the years between 2004 and 2008 you probably would have found more hits on conservative blogs than liberal blogs….it would have been a mix, like this guy’s reading list, but you would have found more conservative than liberal hits. Bottom line, hard to discern political ideology from a reading list.

  534. 534.

    Jinchi

    @myiq2xu:

    Ever seen a teabagger burn an American flag?

    I don’t know anyone who’s burning the flag. But who talks about seceding from the United States these days?

  535. 535.

    WaterGirl

    Apologies for posting this in both threads, but I just received this in an email from Alan Grayson. It’s worth reading.

    A reporter called me a little while ago, and told me that Rep. Gabrielle Giffords had been shot at a public event. She is in critical condition.
    …
    I’m going to let others comment on what this means for America. I just want to say what it means to me.
    …
    Gabrielle Giffords and I served together on the House Committee on Science and Technology. She was the Chairman of the Subcommittee on Space and Aeronautics, and I was a member of that subcommittee. Her D.C. office was one floor above mine.
    …
    I saw Gabby dozens, if not hundreds of times, during our two years together. And nearly every time that I can remember, she was smiling.
    …
    Gabby is one of the most cheerful, charming and engaging people I have ever known. She’s always looking on the bright side. She has something good to say about pretty much everyone. Bad news never lays a glove on her. She loves life, and all the people in it.
    …
    No matter what is going on in your life, after fifteen minutes with Gabby, you’ll feel that you can touch the stars.
    …
    Everyone knew that Gabby would have a tough race in 2010. (She actually won with 49% of the vote.) But I always thought that if each of her constituents could spend that fifteen minutes with her, and see what she is really like, then she would win with 99.9% of the vote. (Same thing about Harry Teague of New Mexico, who lost, and a few others that I could name.) You would want her as your Congressman, because you would want her as your friend.
    …
    I know nothing about the man who shot Gabby, and what was going through his mind when he did this. But I will tell you this – if he shot Gabby out of hatred, then it wasn’t Gabby he was shooting, but rather some cartoon version of her, drawn by her political opposition. Because there is no way – NO WAY – that anyone who really knows Gabby could hate her or hurt her. She is a kind, gentle soul.
    …
    My heart goes out to Mark Kelly, Gabby’s husband, and the many, many people who love her. Gabby, we don’t want to lose you. Please stay here with us.
    …
    Alan Grayson

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