Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Only Democrats have agency, apparently.

No offense, but this thread hasn’t been about you for quite a while.

The gop is a fucking disgrace.

I’d try pessimism, but it probably wouldn’t work.

Seems like a complicated subject, have you tried yelling at it?

Another missed opportunity for Jamie Dimon to just shut the fuck up.

Take hopelessness and turn it into resilience.

We cannot abandon the truth and remain a free nation.

Historically it was a little unusual for the president to be an incoherent babbling moron.

The US Supreme Court is on the ballot in november.

Found liable for massive fraud, is required to post a massive bond, gets a break, then files a *fraudulent* bond!

Republicans want to make it harder to vote and easier for them to cheat.

New McCarthy, same old McCarthyism.

Anyone who bans teaching American history has no right to shape America’s future.

Republicans are radicals, not conservatives.

The current Supreme Court is a rogue court. Very dangerous.

If marriage is the equivalent of selling yourself into slavery, women with self respect should reject the offer.

Trump’s legal defense is going to be a dumpster fire inside a clown car on a derailing train.

The frogs are rarely mistaken.

One of our two political parties is a cult whose leader admires Vladimir Putin.

I have other things to bitch about but those will have to wait.

Republicans would impeach Biden if he bit into a whole Kit Kat rather than breaking the sections apart.

Proof that we need a blogger ethics panel.

I conferred with the team and they all agree – still not tired of winning!

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Reader Interactions

315Comments

  2. 2.

    arguingwithsignposts

    msnbc.com breaking news tweet:

    Pima Sheriff Dopnik on Rep. Giffords shooting: All the vitriole we hear enflaming the American public … that may be free speech, but it’s not without consequences

    9-year-old dead. fuck. fuck. fuck.

    ETA: thinking the DC press corpse tag might be a little much.

  5. 5.

    Louise

    I did my internship in an inpatient psych hospital, and one of the first rules I learned was this: do not play church music in a group setting in the psych ward. There’s nothing wrong with hymns and praise songs; in fact, there is often something very right about them. However, for some patients, all a hymn does is set off a torrent of distracting and disturbing religious imagery. And they share it, and vocalize about it, and other patients go off into crazyland with them, and soon everything is counterproductive.

    Lesson: Know the environment in which you’re working. It’s a free country and you can say and sing what you want, but caring and responsible people don’t set the crazies off if they can avoid it.

    (And, yes, I know this guy was mentally ill and mental illness — which I have — is tragically misunderstood and poorly-treated in our healthcare system. I don’t feel like parsing my words today.)

    The lunatic who opened fire today is a lunatic. His rantings are all over the place and don’t seem to fit any one political ideology (if anything, he seems to be a “leftist”). He might have popped off in any environment, under any circumstances. We’ll probably never know.

    But this is a time in our country when 24-hour “news” cycles that need to be filled, and “news” networks that have specific political leanings, and corporate desire for profit no matter what, and radio broadcasters who can and do say just about anything, and politicians who have no shame whatsoever — all these have allowed nasty rhetoric to reach the greatest number of people in history.

    At a time when so many are vulnerable (i.e., the economy, the wars) and feel vulnerable (changing demographics, health care crises, fear of terrorism), it’s inevitable that those leaning towards craziness will fall over that cliff. Responsible people do not help push them.

    Shame on everyone who fanned the flames. Shame on me for not fighting harder against it.

  8. 8.

    arguingwithsignposts

    @JPL:

    What the hatred in this country is doing is blocking free speech and blocking honest discussion about differences.

    That’s a fair point, but do you want your 9-year-old daughter to pay the price for that?

    I can’t say I would. And I’m as big a free-speech advocate as the next person.

  9. 9.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @JPL, per Keith: Interesting that Gabby Giffords read the First Amendment on the House floor the other day.

  10. 10.

    Mary G

    Sheriff Clarence Dupnik said.

    “When you look at unbalanced people, how they respond to the vitriol that comes out of certain mouths about tearing down the government. The anger, the hatred, the bigotry that goes on in this country is getting to be outrageous. And, unfortunately, Arizona I think has become sort of the capital. We have become the Mecca for prejudice and bigotry.

    They confirmed that the Congresswoman was targeted deliberately, a weapon was dropped in a campaign meeting during the election, windows were broken at her campaign headquarters during the election, and a suspicious package is being investigated at her offices right now as I type. Police spokesman is saying that the bigotry and public rhetoric was a cause in this case and that people in public life and the media have inflamed the public discourse.

  12. 12.

    beltane

    @Mike Kay: I think her career in terms of any hope of mainstream acceptance died today. From what I’ve been reading today, the international media is calling Palin the “inspiration” for this crime. The US media is not making this claim, but still, it’s Out There.

  13. 13.

    fraught

    In a sane world this interview would be the last nail in the coffin of Sarah Palin’s career. This is not a sane world and SP will ultimately attract more followers and those followers will blame Giffords for prematurely blaming Sarah for this guy shooting her.

    In the clip, Chuck Todd is completely, stupidly predictable.

  15. 15.

    JGabriel

    Giffords Warned Of ‘Consequences’ To Palin’s Target Imagery

    To the people who have advocated for Second Amendment Remedies like Sharon Angle, or used eliminationist and gunplay rhetoric in their political advocacy like Sarah Palin and Jesse Kelly: This is what Second Amendment Remedies look like — blood, death, the wounded and the maimed, and murdered public servants and innocent bystanders.

    Your condolences, sympathies, expressions of sorrow and dolour, your excuses that the shooter was crazy and not influenced by you, all of this is hypocritical.

    It doesn’t even matter if the shooter was deranged. This is what Second Amendment Remedies look like. You have no business saying anything but “Good, that’s what I wanted. That’s what I advocated.”

  17. 17.

    r€nato

    Pima County (as in, Tucson) Sheriff Clarence Dupnik goes there:

    “When you look at unbalanced people, how they respond to the vitriol that comes out of certain mouths about tearing down the government. The anger, the hatred, the bigotry that goes on in this country is getting to be outrageous,” the sheriff said. “And unfortunately, Arizona I think has become the capital. We have become the mecca for prejudice and bigotry.”

    my how impolite of him to note the link between extremist rhetoric and extremist violence. This man simply will not be invited to any DC cocktail parties.

  18. 18.

    sukabi

    @Mary G: here’s a link to that article…

    According to Sheriff Dupnik, at about 10:10am Saturday, the gunman approached and opened fire. Congresswoman Giffords was the first person shot. She was hit in the head one time. Congresswoman Giffords is alive and the surgeon in charge is “cautiously optimistic” that she will survive. Sheriff Dupnik said a semi-automatic pistol was used and a total of 19 people were shot. Six people were killed. Sheriff Dupnik said two of the victims were personal friends. All six victims have been identified. Pima County officials are working to notify the next of kin.

    Sheriff Dupnik also confirmed that two individuals at this crime scene tackled the suspect. He said there is reason to believe that the gunman came to the location with another individual. Dupnik told reporters his office has pictures of a “person of interest” in this case. He also said the 22-year old in custody had a criminal background, but did not offer much other information based on the advise of legal counsel. The suspect is in the custody of the Pima County Sheriff’s department.

    “All I can tell you is that this individual may have a mental issue, and that people who are unbalanced are especially susceptible to vitriol,” said Dupnik.

  19. 19.

    John O

    Sarah Palin is toast. Good news for Republicans!

    So the Villagers, left and right, who are a bit frightened of her in the first place, will declare.

  20. 20.

    Stillwater

    “In fairness, campaign rhetoric and war rhetoric have been interchangeable for years.”

    Like, ‘we need to neutralize the enemy’ or ‘pacify the enemy population’ or ‘decapitate the leadership’? Or merely things like saying ‘we have opponents in our cross-hairs’?

    This is a pretty disturbing video, since she was talking the rhetoric on a level of intimacy and concern that the anchor (Chuck Todd) clearly thought was overblown. I hope he has some sleepless nights rethinking his cavalier attitude ahead of him, and starts calling out the bullshit for what it is.

    (Spelling fixed a bit.)

  22. 22.

    r€nato

    @Louise: we don’t know this guy was mentally ill. People with, ah, ‘original and unique’ ideas about our government are not automatically mentally ill.

    Let’s not give him a pass on this until someone with the right qualifications determines whether he was, in fact, mentally ill.

  23. 23.

    serge

    Watching Chuck Todd dismiss the heated speech as typical campaign business made me want to smash my monitor (a feeling I often have, I’m afraid).

    He is one the higher forms of petrified turd. If he had an original thought, he’d probably drop dead from sheer fright. Maybe we could think of his first name as a transitive verb, and “chuck” Todd.

  24. 24.

    r€nato

    @fraught: no, I think Sarah is finished. She is going to get a righteous grilling over that graphic with the 20 Dems ‘targeted’, and seeing as she lacks a conscience and is a full-on narcissist, she will take a bad situation and make it worse by immediately playing the Sarah-crucified-on-the-cross-by-the-liberal-media martyr shtick and generally saying the wrong things all around.

  25. 25.

    JGabriel

    @John O:

    Sarah Palin is toast. Good news for Republicans!

    If true, that probably would be good news for Republicans, They get to scapegoat Palin while skating away from any consequences to themselves and their own rhetoric and policies.

    .

  26. 26.

    Barb (formerly Gex)

    @Southern Beale: Yup, that’s what I’m seeing from random conservatives in my circle as well. Accusing the left of making political hay. I can’t even get someone to agree to the statement that “politicians should have other suggestions to address political differences other than to suggest that second amendment remedies may be necessary”. It makes me so sad.

  29. 29.

    sukabi

    @r€nato: and even if she doesn’t finish herself off, Boner, Cantor and the other R’s who aren’t quite at the level of crazy as the teabaggers will make sure she’s done. There may be a very nasty whisper campaign launched very soon to make sure she’s out.

  30. 30.

    Rex

    Really remarkable watching news commentators asking a woman who is now in a coma after suffering a bullet to the head if maybe she wasn’t, y’know, taking this a little too far.

  31. 31.

    Violet

    From here:

    Neighbors said Loughner kept to himself but that they often saw him walking his dog, almost always wearing a hooded sweat shirt listening to his iPod. Neighbors said Loughner lived with his parents.

    I feel for his parents. How terrible for them that their child (allegedly) did this.

    And…he had a dog? That seems kind of weirdly unexpected.

    So horrible and tragic for everyone.

  32. 32.

    Mike Kay

    If you have twitter you may want to tell Chuck todd “shame on you for enabling the gop’s rhetoric of violence”

  33. 33.

    John O

    @r€nato:

    She is going to get a righteous grilling over that graphic

    LOL, email just sent to a political opponent:

    Subject: t’s a little different when you call it out…

    …before you get shot point blank in the head and a bunch of people around you get killed including a fucking 9 year old plus a Judge.

    Palin is toast. Watch her play the victim card and win Iowa. Good news for [opponent]!

    It appears the shooter was on the far edges of the bell curve of American sanity, such as it is, but when you put opposed political people in literal crosshairs you’re flattening the curve, putting more people out there in that 3rd standard deviation:

    Followed by the PalinPac graphic.

    I’m still doubtful she’ll get a grilling, though. Where? FOX? Twitter?

  34. 34.

    Stillwater

    @r€nato: we don’t know this guy was mentally ill.

    He opened fire on a Congressperson and a crowd of bystanders with a 30-round clip. I think it’s indisputable that he’s mentally ill.

  35. 35.

    Shadow's Mom

    @Southern Beale: Most of the commenters there disagreed with his premise that there is little connection between hateful political rhetoric and the violent actions by unstable people. To my mind, the rhetoric from ‘respected’ political figures can validates the use of violence in the minds of the unstable (perhaps even amng those that are nominally stable as well).

    Today’s events just too depressing. I did ask my professors in my public admin program if they would consider a moment of silence before our classes this week in honor of the victims of today’s violence. Now, I’m going to walk Shadow and then go back to watching Season 4 of Buffy.

    @JGabriel: Thank you, this is exactly what I have been thinking all day.

  36. 36.

    LarsThorwald

    My wife is not political, and when Sheriff Dupnik said what he said about the vitriol on the radio and on television, my wife said, “Glad he said it, because he’s absolutely right.”

    This summer I was discussing the political atmosphere, and I was reminded of Thompson’s quote from The Hunt for Red October: “This business will get out of control. It will get out of control and we’ll be lucky to live through it.”

    A fucking nine year old.

  37. 37.

    SiubhanDuinne

    I’ve been looking for some statement, any statement, by Gabrielle Giffords’ challenger in the 2010 congressional race. Can’t find anything reporting that Brian Miller has released a comment, but isn’t it interesting that his campaign site — *his campaign site* — is currently down for maintenance.

    Right.

    I’d say “WTF?” except I know all too well WTF it is.

  38. 38.

    LarsThorwald

    My wife is not political, and when Sheriff Dupnik said what he said about the vitriol on the radio and on television, my wife said, “Glad he said it, because he’s absolutely right.”

    This summer I was discussing the political atmosphere, and I was reminded of Thompson’s quote from The Hunt for Red October: “This business will get out of control. It will get out of control and we’ll be lucky to live through it.”

    A fucking nine year old.

  39. 39.

    fraught

    @r€nato: I hope you’re right. I also think there is blood on John McCain’s hands and Arizonans should start asking for his resignation. His response today was so wrong headed an pre-senile that I can’t get my head around it.

  40. 40.

    Mumphrey (formerly Renfrew Squeevil (formerly Mumphrey Oddison Yamm (formerly Mumphrey O. Yamm (formerly Mumphrey))))

    Yeah, I loved that bit where Todd asked at about 2 minutes and a half in whether Palin “intended” for something violent to happen. Seems scary at the moment, he said, more or less. Yeah, so I guess we know just how scary it is, now, asshole, and not just “at the moment”.

    I don’t really care whether Sarah Palin “intended” for Giffords–or anybody else–to get shot in the head. I don’t care. We don’t ask drunk drivers whether they “intended” to run down and kill somebody when they get back in the car after downing whisky all night. It doesn’t matter whether they “meant” to hurt anybody or not, and it means just as little here whether Palin or Limbaugh or Beck or Gingrich or Angle or any other of these assholes who are stoking unstable, paranoid loners’ fears “meant” for some freaked out loner to shoot Giffords in the head, or whether they “meant” for him to kill a federal judge and a 9 year old girl and 3 other people.

    All these assholes, we need to run them out of all polite society. There’s no reason on earth that any of these assholes listed above, or any of the countlessly many other vile losers who spew this kind of shit, should ever get a spot on television or a column in the Washington Post again to say anything. At all. Not that Fox News or the Post or the Wall Street Journal would dream of dumping these shits over this or for any other reason, but it damned well ought to happen.

    I wonder how David Broder will find a way to show us all that it’s really the Democrats’ fault because Obama said something mean once about Wall Street…

    Oh, and by the way, @JGabriel: Damned right.

  42. 42.

    Susan

    If there is indeed a second person involved, that whole lone nut thing kind of goes down the tubes, you know?

    The sheriff said there is a “person of interest” they are seeing, a man in his 50s.

  46. 46.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @me #37: I wasn’t very clear. Of course I meant some comment from Brian Miller *today* in response to the shooting — when I read my comment it looks kind of like I was just searching for any random comment from any time during the campaign.

    +2 and who could blame me?

  48. 48.

    r€nato

    @Stillwater: angry people are not automatically mentally ill.

    John Hinckley thought he would impress Jodie Foster by shooting Reagan. Now THAT is mentally ill.

  49. 49.

    Violet

    @Southern Beale:
    The ratings for it kept dropping. Except for the episode where Kate Gosselin showed up, they dropped pretty much every week.

    But yeah, she’s running. Or at least she’ll try. It’ll be interesting to see how today’s tragedy affects her. People do blame her for it.

  50. 50.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    I will max out to the first Dem to call on McCain to apologize to the country for that stupid, vulgar woman.

  51. 51.

    Zuzu's Petals

    @arguingwithsignposts:

    So very sad:

    Also killed was 9-year-old Christina Taylor Green of Tucson.
    __
    A neighbor was going to the Giffords event and invited Christina along because she thought she would enjoy it, said her uncle, Greg Segalini.
    __
    Christina had just been elected to the student council at her school. The event, held outside a Safeway supermarket north of Tucson, was an opportunity for constituents to meet Giffords and talk about any concerns they had related to the federal government.
    __
    “The next thing you know this happened. How do you prepare for something like this. My little niece got killed-took one on the chest and she is dead,” Segalini said outside the girl’s house.
    __
    Christina was involved in many activities, from ballet to baseball, Segalini said.
    __
    “She was real special and real sweet,” Segalini said.

  53. 53.

    Alex

    Oh wait? What was that I hear? All of his friends considered him incredibly left-wing? One of his listed favorite books was The Communist Manifest? Obviously, he’s not a tea-partier, but sarahpalinrightwingextremismgunnuts…and stuff! [Echo]

  54. 54.

    Elie

    This is a watershed.

    All the things going through my head right now are miserable and horrible and filled with incredible pain.

    But I will NOT be defeated by this shit… by this violence purposely incited by morons and evil exploiters..sick sick sick evil and narrow fucks who are beyond any decent society’s contempt

    Many good good people have been lost to the ages for doing the right thing and just being who they are and standing up. This is legion and part of mankind’s destiny — to have our sometimes best and brightest sacrificed to mobs.

    But I personally will NOT be intimidated by scum and shit.
    This will not bring us lower, it will make us stronger and more determined…

  58. 58.

    Southern Beale

    Fucking Brilliant::

    PHOENIX — Favoring the constitutional right to bear arms over others’ concerns about gun safety, Gov. Jan Brewer on Friday signed into law a bill making Arizona the third state allowing people to carry a concealed weapon without requiring a permit.

  62. 62.

    Jon H

    @r€nato: “we don’t know this guy was mentally ill. People with, ah, ‘original and unique’ ideas about our government are not automatically mentally ill.”

    He ranted about mind control. Dude is mentally ill.

  63. 63.

    srv

    I don’t know if someone else is thinking about this yet, but perhaps we could come up with an idea for a mass statement across the blogo/social/mediasphere about political violence.

    Not sure what it would be, but we have a lot of smart people out there.

  64. 64.

    JPL

    KOLD.com spoke with a former neighbor of the Loughner family who recently sold his house because he was afraid of the family.
    The person notified the police about his fears.

  66. 66.

    Stillwater

    @r€nato: angry people are not automatically mentally ill.

    So killing random unknown people and politicians is a rational display of anger?

  67. 67.

    hildebrand

    @Zuzu’s Petals:
    That has got to be the most heartbreaking part of this whole heartbreaking business. My god. I cannot even imagine the pain of that poor family.

  68. 68.

    Shadow's Mom

    @Zuzu’s Petals: I’m in tears, been on the verge all day.

    F-ing 9 years old.

    On the student council.

    The neighbor. How do you cope with the aftereffects of something like this?.

    @Southern Beale: I watched Brewer’s comments on C-Span. She broke down in tears midway through. That likely does NOT change her opinion about right to bear arms though.

  70. 70.

    Ajay

    @Mark:

    Oh, fuck you Chuck Todd. What a piece of shit

    Thats what also stuck me. Its always about the other side as well.

    I cant believe people like him have jobs in media. But again, they are all mostly like him: incompetent buffoons who are paid well.

  72. 72.

    Zach

    OK, according to Martha Stewart (really), John McCain was chilling at a concert two hours ago with her and some political folks today. Is that the problem?

  73. 73.

    fraught

    @WaterGirl: apparently, he made two statements: One about Giffords and one about the judge. I had only read the one about the judge when I posted. My badness. His statements were appropriate but I still think he has blood on his hands for introducing us to SP and generally coarsening the discourse.

  74. 74.

    snarkyspice

    @Elie:

    Well many good people in America anyway. I don’t know of any other western civilization that works this way. I am so depressed about this country.

  75. 75.

    someguy

    Pretty clearly, mainstream republicans are to blame for this. When @JGabriel:

    If true, that probably would be good news for Republicans, They get to scapegoat Palin while skating away from any consequences to themselves and their own rhetoric and policies.

    Wait, you’re saying that there should be consequences?

    Oh, sorry, no big deal. You aren’t a Republican so you can say that without it being a dog whistle call for assassination of political enemies.

  77. 77.

    JGabriel

    Violet:

    It’ll be interesting to see how today’s tragedy affects [Palin]. People do blame her for it.

    I’m curious about that too. Palin is such a polarizing figure to begin with, that I’m not sure it will change much in the general population.

    The people who blame her for this tragedy were never going to vote for her anyway. And the people who would vote for her will make excuses for this rather than change their minds over it.

    What may change is the media’s coverage of her. This might make her too toxic to treat as a serious candidate anymore, outside of Fox News.

    .

  79. 79.

    Jon H

    @srv: “I don’t know if someone else is thinking about this yet, but perhaps we could come up with an idea for a mass statement across the blogo/social/mediasphere about political violence.”

    Everybody turn your pages green. I’m sure Cole can get behind that.

  80. 80.

    LM

    @Mark:
    I agree. And the other reporter was just as bad. They one-twoed Giffords, pushing her to let Reps off the hook and to say there are crazies on both sides. They did not deal with her point–that people should be speaking out against the rhetoric. Instead Todd got patronizing about politics-as-war analogies, then scoffingly asked if she really thought this created danger. The other news person did a “some people say” thing about Dems cherry-picking instances of crazy talk to make Reps look bad.

    They didn’t care what Giffords was saying, or they’d have talked with her about that. They wanted to make her say what they wanted to hear. I get so sick of interviews shaped to showcase beltway conventional wisdom.

    We could really use a decent press corps!

  81. 81.

    Zuzu's Petals

    @arguingwithsignposts:

    I don’t know why, but of all the 9/11 victims, I felt most deeply impacted by the story of Asia S. Cottom, a bright and exuberant 11-year-old girl who died on the plane that hit the Pentagon. She was thrilled to have been chosen to represent her school at a conference in California. Every time I think of her beautiful smiling face I want to cry all over again.

  82. 82.

    WaterGirl

    @fraught: Thanks for the info. I had googled but just saw the usual boilerplate blah blah blah. I saw a photo, though, of President Obama when he was speaking of this. I have only seen him look like that one other time, and that was just after his grandmother died.

  83. 83.

    JGabriel

    @Alex:

    Oh wait? What was that I hear? … One of his listed favorite books was The Communist Manifest?

    And two of the others were Adolf Hitler’s Mein Kampf and Ayn Rand’s We The Living.

    Fuck off, troll.

    .

  84. 84.

    Zach

    @Ajay: “I cant believe people like him have jobs in media.”

    He owes his job to Nate Silver. He rose to quasi-fame at NBC by regurgitating Silver’s analysis during the Dem primaries and ate up being lauded as the numbers genius every morning on Morning Joe.

  85. 85.

    Ajay

    @efgoldman:

    I don’t understand how a common-sense, reality-based guy like Dupnik gets elected in AZ.

    Probably no one knew him as well. He should watch out, its unlikely for him to get reelected with logical/rational thinking.

  86. 86.

    Jon H

    @efgoldman: “I don’t understand how a common-sense, reality-based guy like Dupnik gets elected in AZ. I’m glad he did, but I don’t understand how.”

    Tucson seems to be a relatively sane oasis. They don’t hate Hispanics, etc. They had a Latino cultural studies program in the high schools which was recently declared illegal by the state. I expect it’s a little like Austin in Texas, or Houston electing an openly gay mayor.

  87. 87.

    Elie

    Alex:

    You are lucky that there is no way to really know who you are…

    All that brave talk with anonymity as your shield…

    Its a good thing.

    For YOU and probably us to.

    I pray for those like you and for myself, feeling what I do as I read your words

  89. 89.

    Debbie(aussie)

    This kind of BS from some people pisses me off. I am daily reader of the Dish, but why the “balance” “But this does not exonerate violent or excessive rhetoric from the far right or far left: it’s precisely the disturbed who can seize on those kinds of statements and act on them. ” I haven’t heard any violent rhetoric from the ‘far left’.
    I wonder if this sort of thing makes US citizens think about its’ gun culture at all. This sort of thing (mass shootings) is a regular occurance in your country, how do you live with that?

  90. 90.

    Jon H

    @r€nato: “angry people are not automatically mentally ill.”

    He’s definitely mentally ill. He was rejected by the Army in 2008. Wasn’t the Army trying to recruit, like, a kid with Down’s Syndrome in one case during the Bush years? And generally slashing standards?

    They don’t say *why* he was rejected, but he doesn’t show any physical disabilities. I doubt his minor drug offense would be a bar to enlistment.

  91. 91.

    r€nato

    @efgoldman:

    not all of Arizona is Maricopa County, just like how not all Arizona sheriffs are corrupt greaseballs who love to play racial politics.

    Tucson is in Pima County, and Pima County is a very blue county.

    Might surprise you to find out that not all of Arizona is cactus and dry Sonoran desert. There’s some great skiing to be had up in Flagstaff and up by Show Low at Sunrise.

  94. 94.

    Jon H

    @r€nato:

    Does this sound like road-rage to you?

    If you’re editing of every belief and religion reaches the final century then the writer for every belief and religion is you.

    You’re editing of every belief and religion reaches the final century.

    Thus, the writer for every belief and religion is you.

    You control every — thought, action, and lifestyle — for the person or people as the mind controller.

    I’m able to control every belief and religion by being the mind controller

  95. 95.

    r€nato

    @Debbie(aussie):

    Ward Churchill, some professor nobody ever heard of at some community college nobody ever heard of, said some very intemperate things several years ago about 9/11 victims.

    Also, Bill Ayers – who was once in the same room as Barack Obama – set off a bomb at the Pentagon 40 years ago.

    So of course, both sides are equally guilty.

  98. 98.

    lamh32

    Both Chuck Todd and Savannah should feel like complete douches right now. But of course they don’t cause they were “just doing their jobs”. And can I just say that my life would be complete if I never had to look at Luke Russert ever again!

  99. 99.

    JCT

    @Southern Beale: Been wondering about this all day — given the almost complete lack of gun control laws in AZ (thanks to poor sad Gov. Brewer who signed all the laws that Napolitano kept vetoing), my guess is that as long as the shooter could free one hand from his fucking straightjacket to get out his wallet that he could buy a semiautomatic weapon. Gee, just like VTech.

    Then he likely had to go digging elsewhere for that mag extender.

    Your second amendment solutions at work, right Sharron and Sarah?

    And boy, I held up on the tears all day — but that video of Giffords coupled to the story of the little girl just body-slammed me. Hell, I used to take my kids to see our reps — to see real people who worked in the govt. G_d, I’m just sickened.

  100. 100.

    askew

    I just want to thank Balloon Juice for being sane today. I made a mistake and peaked at Daily Kos. There is a front-page post criticizing Obama on this issue already. The comments are filled with rantings about Obama’s balls.

  102. 102.

    r€nato

    @Jon H: No, I don’t think that’s a sign of mental illness all by itself.

    None of us here, I’d wager, are qualified to judge someone as mentally ill. I do know there is a HUGE gap between behavior which many of us would find irrational or unacceptable, and being actually certifiably mentally ill.

    Some guy who shoots up his workplace is NOT necessarily mentally ill. Anger management problems? Sure. Emotionally immature? Absolutely.

    Some guy who shoots the president because he saw a movie where some guy shoots the president to impress an underaged hooker? Yeah, that guy is likely mentally ill. Notice how he acted out of dissociation with reality, rather than raw anger.

  103. 103.

    JGabriel

    @Zach: H

    e owes his job to Nate Silver. He rose to quasi-fame at NBC by regurgitating Silver’s analysis during the Dem primaries …

    Yeah, I noticed that too. Up until Todd started mimicking Nate’s numbers, Chuck’s analyses sucked and wasn’t any better than the rest of the networks.

    .

  104. 104.

    Stillwater

    @r€nato: Fair enough, but you know exactly what I meant. How bout ‘a mentally healthy way to express anger’? Are you really gonna go with the ‘he may have been mentally healthy but angry enough to murder lots of people he didn’t know’ thing? Isn’t the murder of unknown innocent people in a context like this evidence of mental illness? (I know this is somewhat trivial, but now I’m just intrigued by what you think constitutes mental illness. Is it just the chemically treatable stuff that shows up in the APA bulletins?)

  105. 105.

    magurakurin

    One report quoted the police as describing him as “unstable” but not mentally ill. But, yeah, the thing about unloading a 30 round clip tips the scales pretty heavily.

    But I’d say there is no doubt this young man’s mind was filled with pure Teabagger/BeckPalin hate-talking points.

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/la-na-jared-loughner-20110109,0,2883675.story

    In another video he wrote: “No! I won’t pay debt with a currency that’s not backed by gold and silver!”

    Gee, which political party is trying to pass a law in a certain state legislature to that effect?

    There is no doubt in my mind that the Teabagger fuckwits and the king and queen, BeckPalin, have blood on their hands.

  106. 106.

    AxelFoley

    @Stillwater:

    He opened fire on a Congressperson and a crowd of bystanders with a 30-round clip. I think it’s indisputable that he’s mentally ill.

    Stop. Letting. These. Assholes. Off. The. Hook.

    Fuck that mental illness bullshit, people. Stop excusing this kind of shit.

  107. 107.

    Jon H

    @JCT: “Then he likely had to go digging elsewhere for that mag extender.”

    Might be easy to find there, for the Mexican market.

  108. 108.

    Mike G

    This is chilling, from Giffords’ opponent several months ago —

    Get on Target for Victory in November
    Help Remove Gabrielle Giffords from Office
    Shoot a fully automatic M16 with Jesse Kelly

    http://www.blogforarizona.com/blog/2010/06/jesse-kelly-event-is-this-wording-intentional.html

    These assholes play with rhetorical fire and gasoline, then stand around innocent and disavow any resulting explosion. ‘Nobody Could Have Predicted’ should be the motto of the GOP.

  109. 109.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Debbie(aussie):

    I wonder if this sort of thing makes US citizens think about its’ gun culture at all

    .
    Not even a little. As someone posted, the gun-fetishists are arguing that if more people had guns, someone could have dropped the killer. I’m pretty agnostic about guns myself, but I really can’t understand the emotional investment people have in these metal compensators. “They wanna take my guns away” is one of main supports of the Republicans as a national party.

  111. 111.

    Jon H

    @AxelFoley: “Fuck that mental illness bullshit, people. Stop excusing this kind of shit.”

    Where’s the “excusing”?

    I want to understand what happened. I’m not interested in entertaining a fantasy version of what happened by remaining in denial for some reason.

    Regardless of whether he’s mentally ill or not, he’s going to be convicted, and he’s going to at least spend the rest of his life in jail. The death penalty is also likely.

    So, I don’t see the point in pretending that he’s not mentally ill.

  112. 112.

    r€nato

    Not sure if this has been noted here, but the murdered federal judge was the subject of death threats in 2009 and put under federal protection. At the time, the judge pointed his finger at right-wing radio hysteria whipping people into a frenzy.

    Why is it so impolite to note the connection between extremist rhetoric and extremist violence?

    If the KKK marches around screaming that them niggaz oughta be hung…and then some of them end up lynched… nobody in their right mind would try to defend them.

    But when you’re talking about people perceived as ‘respectable’, like Michael Savage and Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity and Glenn Beck who all make serious bank off of whipping their viewers/listeners into hysterics about how Obama wants to kill your granny and grab your guns and hand the country over to black thugs and Islamic radicals… somehow it’s simply off the table to note the connection between that and the very regular occurrence of right-wing violence, not to mention the plots by right-wingers that are stopped before they can come to fruition.

  113. 113.

    AxelFoley

    @Zuzu’s Petals:

    @arguingwithsignposts:
    So very sad:
    Also killed was 9-year-old Christina Taylor Green of Tucson.
    A neighbor was going to the Giffords event and invited Christina along because she thought she would enjoy it, said her uncle, Greg Segalini.
    Christina had just been elected to the student council at her school. The event, held outside a Safeway supermarket north of Tucson, was an opportunity for constituents to meet Giffords and talk about any concerns they had related to the federal government.
    “The next thing you know this happened. How do you prepare for something like this. My little niece got killed-took one on the chest and she is dead,” Segalini said outside the girl’s house.
    Christina was involved in many activities, from ballet to baseball, Segalini said.
    “She was real special and real sweet,” Segalini said.

    My God, that just breaks my heart. That poor, sweet child.

  114. 114.

    Stillwater

    @r€nato: Ward Churchill wasn’t some intemperate professor at a community college. He was a professor at University of Colorado who has written many (several!) books about Indian affairs, the American Indian Movement, and the FBI’s illegal activities wrt civil liberties movements generally. The questionable material he wrote about 9/11 consisted entirely in his assertion that ‘the chickens have come home to roost’ with respect to US involvement in foreign affairs in general, and the Middle East in particular. Not a very outlandish thesis to defend, if you’ve been paying attention to US projection of power since WWII.

  115. 115.

    r€nato

    @Stillwater: my point is that ‘mental illness’ is a phrase laypeople toss around rather carelessly without much thought as to what it actually means.

    Someone who has an anger management problem is not necessarily mentally ill.

    We don’t need to tag everyone who does shit that we don’t approve of, as ‘mentally ill’.

  116. 116.

    AxelFoley

    @Alex:

    h wait? What was that I hear? All of his friends considered him incredibly left-wing? One of his listed favorite books was The Communist Manifest? Obviously, he’s not a tea-partier, but sarahpalinrightwingextremismgunnuts…and stuff! [Echo]

    Oh, wait, one of his favorite books was Mein Kampf? Another was an Ayn Rand book?

    GTFO, you little bitch.

  117. 117.

    Jon H

    @r€nato: “Notice how he acted out of dissociation with reality, rather than raw anger.”

    And belief in mind control isn’t dissociation from reality?

  118. 118.

    Stillwater

    @AxelFoley: I’m not. I don’t think his mental health factors into the political discussion at all. I’m just pointing out what I believe to be a fact.

  119. 119.

    Chad N Freude

    @JGabriel: I think what you’ve said here today is excellent, but

    What may change is the media’s coverage of her. This might make her too toxic to treat as a serious candidate anymore

    is right out of Unicorn Central. I would be amazed (but really, really pleased) if the media altered the way they cover her.

  121. 121.

    r€nato

    @Stillwater: you know who he is, congratulations. 99% of us had no idea who Ward Churchill was until some college reporter engaged in nutpicking, found that one rather incendiary comment of Churchill’s and the right-wing noise machine held it up as evidence of the traitorous tendencies of the Left, as if we all eagerly await Churchill’s talking points every morning right after we get them from Babs and Rosie O’Donnell.

    And that was my point.

  122. 122.

    trixie larue

    The last episode of her stupid show airs tomorrow night. It will not be renewed. Sarah who? I know, she won’t be forgotten that quickly.

  123. 123.

    JGabriel

    @efgoldman:

    In fairness to Alex, i think that was sarcasm.

    I re-read it, and it still reads like winger-speak to me. If I’m wrong, then congrats to Alex on a flawless imitation. It’s also possible that my barometer for irony, which is usually pretty good, is off due to today’s tragedy.

    .

  128. 128.

    r€nato

    @Jon H: depends. I read his YouTube videos too. I didn’t see enough in there to really get a good idea of what he meant by mind control.

    Until we have a fuller idea of what the hell he was talking about, we really can’t say that he was ‘mentally ill’. He had some odd ideas, that’s for sure.

    So do 9/11 truthers. They think that there was a massive conspiracy, that 9/11 was an inside job and that the government managed to perfectly stage an elaborate plot which would have required the participation of dozens if not hundreds of conspirators… and somehow not one person has ever spilled the beans.

    But hey, if you’re willing to stipulate that truthers are mentally ill, I’ll go along with saying that the Tucson shooter was mentally ill as well.

  130. 130.

    And Another Thing...

    Keith Olbermann is playing the Todd/Guthrie interview at abt 10:00 pm Sat night. I hope that Todd in particular loses sleep over his cavalier attitude. Oh and Guthrie too for her Dems daring to talk about the inciting.

    As it happens, my brother and I had a discussion/argument about these precise issues last week. I’m showing up at dinner with the Palin target list tomorrow. When challenged, the only Dem/lefty he could think of on the “both sides do it is” Al Franken. I couldn’t help it, I laughed. Yeah, Franken is just like Beck or Michael Savage, etc. etc.

    What an effing tragedy.

  133. 133.

    AxelFoley

    @askew:

    I just want to thank Balloon Juice for being sane today. I made a mistake and peaked at Daily Kos. There is a front-page post criticizing Obama on this issue already. The comments are filled with rantings about Obama’s balls.

    Fuck that place.

  136. 136.

    r€nato

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    the shooter was stopped by two people who tackled him. Not by some NRA-loving Randian hero who took down the assailant.

    But hey, if all the bystanders had been packing heat, I’m sure that sooner or later one of the flying bullets would have hit the attacker…

  137. 137.

    Chad N Freude

    @r€nato: This is true. I know irrational people who are not (apparently) mentally ill. I have known mentally ill people who were perfectly rational in responding to their delusions. So I ask why is this distinction important in this context?

  140. 140.

    r€nato

    @And Another Thing…:

    Yeah, Franken is just like Beck or Michael Savage, etc. etc.

    oh yeah, that’s a great point there.

    Why you can hardly walk down the street without stumbling on the bodies of people massacred by patchouli-soaked, pot-smoking pinko liberal hippies incited by Terry Gross to resort to bullets instead of ballots.

  141. 141.

    Obliterati

    @r€nato: He had more than just “odd ideas”…his writings seem to be a textbook example of formal thought disorder…combined with what we know of his life, and his age, he seems a prime candidate to be a paranoid schizophrenic who just suffered a major psychotic break.

    But who knows? That’s just edumacated guesswork. We need more information.

  142. 142.

    Jon H

    @r€nato: “But hey, if all the bystanders had been packing heat, I’m sure that sooner or later one of the flying bullets would have hit the attacker…”

    Yeah, it’d be horrific to be Mr. Pistol Packin Hero and find out it was your bullet that hit the little girl.

  143. 143.

    r€nato

    @Chad N Freude:

    in this context it’s important to me to make this distinction because:

    1) words mean things
    2) we’re talking about a violent and notorious crime here. Saying, ‘he was mentally ill!’ implies that maybe he’s entitled to an insanity defense, it implies that maybe he deserves some sympathy just like how people who are on death row whose IQ is too low for them to understand what they did, don’t deserve to be executed because they lacked the capacity to understand right from wrong.

    Saying ‘he was mentally ill!’ amounts to giving this guy at least a partial pass.

  144. 144.

    Elie

    Of course the perpetrator is a “Crazee” outlier — like every assassin in our modern history…

    They have all been mysterious nobody outsiders — some mentally unbalanced but all influenced by events or encouraged to undertake their actions by others who remain off stage…

    I am not saying that this is some vast conspiracy. It is a conspiracy of thought however, of emotional intent that has been bubbling along much of the speech and messaging of the right. They MUST own that because it is demonstrably true and evident.

    I am sure that they will argue that technically, none of them actually instructed or paid or otherwise directly motivated this action — but only ever so slightly by a matter of degree.. they absolutely DID and those who defend or try to bring excuses are themselves making this sort of thing more likely…

    I hope Jan Brewer and her right wing fascist cabinet spend all their next three months with the FBI sniffing around and pulling up god knows what. Hope all her taxes are ok and such… and that she has all her dog’s vaccinations up to date

  145. 145.

    Belafon (formerly anonevent)

    I would like to know what Sharon Angle thinks about second amendment remedies now, but she’s probably in front of the mirror practicing “Why would you politicize this tragedy?” I think it’s a perfectly legitimate question: Is it still OK for people to shoot others for not agreeing with their position?

  146. 146.

    r€nato

    @Obliterati: yes, we do.

    The guy clearly had issues. Whether mental illness was one of them… well, it’s a sure bet his defense attorney will do his best to prove that because that’s the only thing that’s going to stand between him and the gas chamber.

  147. 147.

    Smedley

    @Stillwater:
    No, he’s a competent killer. Taking out 19 people six kia) with 20-30 rounds is a lot better than most NY cops get away with…
    Seriously he was good.
    If you’ve ever tried to get off a full clip in a situation like that you would understand the seriousness of what he did.
    Not proof of his mental instability .
    In fact I hope he is found competent to stand trial.

  150. 150.

    Jon H

    @r€nato: “Saying ‘he was mentally ill!’ amounts to giving this guy a pass.”

    Your opinion. I want to understand what actually happened, not sit in a comforting fantasy version of events.

    When I talk about him being mentally ill, I’m not thinking at all about the trial. I’m thinking about the facts.

  151. 151.

    gbbalto

    @ efgoldman #112
    You might want to Google “Pima County Sheriff immigration” beofre you condemn the whole state. I think we’ll get an honest investigation here.

  153. 153.

    Southern Beale

    Speaking of DailyKos, husband just read aloud a comment he saw somewhere … poster said he saw one of Giffords’ more liberal constituents write on Kos after a particular vote that the Congresswoman “is dead to me” which TOTALLY proves that liberals are VIOLENT and ADVOCATE DEATH just the same as Teanutties and Right Wingers!

    Brick —-> head ——> rinse ———-> repeat

  154. 154.

    Calouste

    @Stillwater:

    __

    He opened fire on a Congressperson and a crowd of bystanders with a 30-round clip. I think it’s indisputable that he’s mentally ill.

    I suppose you also think there are lots of mentally ill people in Iraq? You know, all the ones that go out and blow themselves and a number of bystanders up at a busstop.

  156. 156.

    Violet

    @Chad N Freude:

    is right out of Unicorn Central. I would be amazed (but really, really pleased) if the media altered the way they cover her.

    The media has already altered how they cover her. Not a lot, but enough that its noticeable. People like Krauthammer are saying she hasn’t done what she should and studied policy in these last couple of years. They wouldn’t have dared say something like that a few years ago. The bloom is off the rose after debacles like O’Donnell in DE and Miller in her home state of AK. The media isn’t glossing over it completely like they might have done before; they’re covering it somewhat.

    I think the media still hope she’ll run because it’ll jack up their ratings. So they won’t try to tank her right yet. But the shift has begun.

  157. 157.

    Zach

    @r€nato: I disagree with writing it off as an irrational act of mental illness, but just based on what we know from (1) what he did and (2) what he put on the Internet, you could check off enough boxes to diagnose him with a few different disorders. Ditto for many if not most assassins (except for those in movies who are blackmailed into it or whatever and assassins in countries where assassination is a way of life who do so to advance political interests and intend to not be caught). That doesn’t in any way mean that his actions are isolated from his environment; he didn’t just invent the idea to kill a sitting Congresswoman out of thin air.

  159. 159.

    Jon H

    @Calouste: “You know, all the ones that go out and blow themselves and a number of bystanders up at a busstop.”

    They might be… and recruited for suicide missions as a result.

    What, you don’t think they send the best and brightest out to blow themselves up, do you?

  160. 160.

    TruthorScare

    I wish I was better with the quote function but since it doesn’t seem to be working for me, I’ll just reference an earlier commenter who suggested coming up with constructive ways to honor Rep. Giffords and the other victims. I knew Judge Roll and to learn of his death on top of the news about Rep. Gifford was a double gut-punch.

    As an Arizonan I felt compelled to find something to try to help alleviate my rage at what happened and for once again (for the eleventeenth time) being ashamed of my state.

    I am in no way affiliated with the AZ Dem Party structure or the DCCC, but today I set up automatic monthly donations to the AZ Dem Party and the DCCC. The only things the thugs who incited this shooting care about is money and power. One way we can fight back is with money to be competitive for meaningful political power. I refuse to wallow in hatred — I won’t give that half-term half-wit and Limpballs that kind of power in my life.

    It would be completely inappropriate for any political org to use today’s tragedy to fundraise, but I’m comfortable as an individual with considering that my constructive response and I plan to suggest it to family and friends. Just sharing in case anyone here might want to consider it.

  162. 162.

    Anya

    @Belafon (formerly anonevent):

    I would like to know what Sharon Angle thinks about second amendment remedies now, but she’s probably in front of the mirror practicing “Why would you politicize this tragedy?” I think it’s a perfectly legitimate question: Is it still OK for people to shoot others for not agreeing with their position?

    I hope I never hear that crazy witch’s wobbly voice again.

  163. 163.

    r€nato

    @Obliterati:

    *shrug* I know some people who think the government is spying on them every chance it gets.

    Some people get some really screwy ideas in their heads, simply because they have nothing else to do with their time than sit around and think about shit too much.

    Doesn’t mean they are mentally ill.

  164. 164.

    Veritas78

    There are days when it helps to go back to the way it was 20 years ago. Read a little, think, read some more, think what to say, if there’s anything to say. For me, I can’t process sadness this fast, and there are deeply sad, bad parts of this.

    No gun should spray 20+ bullets in the blink of an eye. That is too much power for anyone. No human has the right to kill that many other humans that fast—not in war, not in peace. No.

  166. 166.

    JGabriel

    r€nato:

    If the KKK marches around screaming that them niggaz oughta be hung…and then some of them end up lynched… nobody in their right mind would try to defend them.

    At the time, there were people who did defend them.

    But when you’re talking about people perceived as ‘respectable’, like Michael Savage and Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity and Glenn Beck who all make serious bank off of whipping their viewers/listeners into hysterics about how Obama wants to kill your granny and grab your guns and hand the country over to black thugs and Islamic radicals… somehow it’s simply off the table to note the connection between that and the very regular occurrence of right-wing violence …

    I suspect that in fifty years or so — or much less, I hope but don’t count on — Savage / Limbaugh / Hannity / Beck / Palin and their supporters will be viewed with much the same revulsion and disdain as the KKK is today.

    .

  167. 167.

    dr. bloor

    @Maude:

    She’s exactly right, though. Drawing a line between this lunatic’s actions and political speech can’t ever be accomplished, because for all we know he decided to act today because his Rice Krispies told him to.

    But we live in a country with as many guns as there are people. We can’t get our representatives to pass good legislation controlling weapons with absolutely no other purpose than to kill a lot of human beings at the same time, because they’re bought off by a bunch of paranoid lunatics funded by the gun industry. We can’t even get the government to allowing the tracing office of the ATF to computerize their fucking records. We’re basically arming the sociopaths in Mexico who have replaced local governments with automatic weapons. And even with decent controls in place, at this point there are so many guns out there that anyone–lunatic, sociopath, thirteen year old kid–can get one without breaking a sweat.

    If this draws the incredulity and scorn of the rest of the civilized world–and it should, every fucking day–it’s because the gun situation in this country is stark fucking insane. I don’t want Sarah Palin’s head on a platter for this, I want the President of the NRA’s.

  168. 168.

    r€nato

    @TruthorScare:

    at this very moment, the majority leader in the Arizona Senate is Russell Pearce, a far right-winger who plays footsy with neo-Nazis and white supremacists.

    I’ve heard Pearce talk about his pet issue, illegal immigration. He gets absolutely outraged when talking about it, as if an illegal raped his daughter or something. On more than one occasion I’ve heard him say that the people on the other side of that debate are treasonous and hate America. Really, that’s what he said.

    So good on you for contributing to the AZ Democratic party, but prepare for disappointment. It’s in pretty sad shape. When Napolitano left and then Terry Goddard was term-limited out of the AG office, we were left with no good starters. Kind of like when Warner retired from the Cardinals!

  169. 169.

    Zach

    Given his apparent mental illness, I’m glad that similarly troubled kids are now covered on their parents’ insurance until they’re 26. It’s possible that this person, the VA Tech shooter, Maj. Hasan, etc could’ve been recognized and treated before their violent acts, and Obamacare increases the chances that this will happen in the future.

  171. 171.

    Southern Beale

    @JGabriel:

    I suspect that in fifty years or so — or much less, I hope but don’t count on — Savage / Limbaugh / Hannity / Beck / Palin and their supporters will be viewed with much the same revulsion and disdain as the KKK is today.

    Agreed. It’s one reason I started blogging. I wanted to be on the record as being opposed to these people and everything they espouse, and to work hard for justice and fairness and everything they are against.

  172. 172.

    TruthorScare

    Forgot to add that the most despicable thing I personally heard from a talking head today wasn’t on Fox but CNN, from Wolf Blitzer. He was talking about Rep. Giffords being widely known as a moderate Blue Dog Dem, well-liked by people in both parties and not perceived as a “liberal, far-left Dem.” What the goddam fuck — Wolf, are you saying that if Dennis Kucinich had been shot, it would be completely understandable because he’s a “liberal, far-left Dem” and therefore asking for it? What the goddam fuck.

  175. 175.

    Violet

    So RedState was running a “caption contest” for a cartoon. They scrubbed it, leaving this note:

    Editorial Note: This morning, prior to this news, we were running a caption contest on this cartoon. We have suspended that contest and removed the cartoon from the front page.
    __
    Erick

    and the link leads here and this note:

    Due to the events that took place today (Jan 8, 2010) in Tucson, Arizona – details here – with Representative Gabrielle Giffords, I’ve decided to discontinue this week’s caption contest. The subject matter is too close to the reality of what happened, and I don’t want to come across as making fun of such a stupid and senseless tragedy.

    Of course they’ve tried to scrub the cartoon, but you can see it here.

    Niiiice. A cartoon with a John Boehner “target” from a box marked “To: Left Wing Media Shooting Range.” WTF is wrong with these people?

  176. 176.

    Calouste

    @Jon H:

    There are quite a few people who fall between the mentally ill and the best and the brightest. About 95% of the population.

  177. 177.

    someguy

    @TruthorScare:

    I am in no way affiliated with the AZ Dem Party structure or the DCCC, but today I set up automatic monthly donations to the AZ Dem Party and the DCCC.

    That’s a good idea. The only proper way to retaliate for something like this is to hit the people responsible for it where it hurts.

  180. 180.

    Zach

    @AxelFoley: Huh? “That doesn’t in any way mean that his actions are isolated from his environment; he didn’t just invent the idea to kill a sitting Congresswoman out of thin air.” Totally agree that saying “he’s crazy; shit happens” is messed up; not saying that.

  181. 181.

    Bill Murray

    @askew: if there was, there is not now any post of that sort on Daily Kos now. There is a post about what tack should be taken to fully address the situation with an introduction that could be used written by “Former civil rights attorney and president of The Sierra Club Foundation Guy Saperstein”. Probably the comments are bad in places, which is true in threads here, at Hullabaloo and with TBogg.

  182. 182.

    SIA

    I’ve been reading the threads all day and still can’t come to terms with this. That lovely woman was doing what she was elected to do and she is gunned down. A child is dead. A judge is dead. Others are dead. I feel ill.

    And angry, at the teabaggers, the sicko shooter, and particularly at the useless, craven, toxic & corrupt media. Chuck Todd is a milque toast ivory blob of mediocrity and banality.

    And Sarah Palin, you are the vortex of this evil, you venal souless viper.

  183. 183.

    AxelFoley

    @Zach:

    This: “It’s possible that this person, the VA Tech shooter, Maj. Hasan, etc could’ve been recognized and treated before their violent acts, and Obamacare increases the chances that this will happen in the future.”

  184. 184.

    hildebrand

    @Zach:

    That doesn’t in any way mean that his actions are isolated from his environment; he didn’t just invent the idea to kill a sitting Congresswoman out of thin air.

    Exactly this.

    I don’t quite think anybody will be able to be so bold as to say this was merely a random target picked by this guy.

  186. 186.

    henqiguai

    @AxelFoley (#173):

    Wow, you fucking trolls are active tonight.

    Could be jumping to conclusions, but I think he was saying that hopefully people such as are under discussion will be diagnosed and treated, because they still have access to (mental) health care. I think.

  189. 189.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @AxelFoley: I think you got the wrong end of the stick on this one, mate. It seemed to me that Zach was saying healthcare reform might help avoid situations like this in the future.

  190. 190.

    Chad N Freude

    @AxelFoley:

    It’s possible that this person, the VA Tech shooter, Maj. Hasan, etc could’ve been recognized and treated before their violent acts, and Obamacare increases the chances that this will happen in the future.

    I read this as “Obamacare increases the chances that recognition of potentiality of violent acts and appropriate treatment will happen in the future.” Was I wrong?

  192. 192.

    sukabi

    @sukabi: ok the last comment I made had a typo, and I can’t edit or delete it… this is what I typed:

    and??? Is there something that’s off about the source? It’s a local ABC affiliate, or are you doubting that the sheriff’s full of shit?

    and this is what I meant:

    Is there something that’s off about the source? It’s a local ABC affiliate, or are you saying that the sheriff’s full of shit?

  194. 194.

    Chad N Freude

    I think it’s worth noting that Major Hasan may not fit this particular case: His Army superiors knew he might have been deranged and did nothing about it.

  195. 195.

    Barb (formerly Gex)

    @hildebrand: Wrong! I got into a heated debate with someone who would not agree that it is inappropriate for an elected representative to suggest second amendment remedies to political problems. I shit you not. This same person is pretty sure the shooter is crazy and this wasn’t political.

  196. 196.

    Southern Beale

    @Violet:

    Well, someone got this screen shot of two comments on Sarah Palin’s Facebook page (I’m sure the one saying Giffords deserved to die will be scrubbed soon). And they’ll say it was a liberal troll trying to make Palin look bad.

    The comment that really got me was the one where the guy quote Obama when he said “you don’t bring a knife to a gun fight.” Again, TOTALLY not the same, folks! They just don’t get it.

  199. 199.

    Jaim

    This is awful on so many levels.

    Condolences to the victims’ families.

    And fuck Glenn Beck and Sarah Palin. There isn’t a hot enough place in hell for them.

  200. 200.

    PS

    Sadness is. Prayer is appropriate (even for an unbeliever like me). Venting is understandable. Crying makes more sense, to me.

    The head honchos of the right wing have an opportunity here to act like humans. The Arizona Tea Party (or one of them) is apparently declining, but all I have heard from Boehner and Cantor suggests that they might — votes are postponed indefinitely, and appropriate short statements will be followed by more tomorrow. Let’s wait and see.

  201. 201.

    Linda Featheringill

    Crazy versus responsible:

    Jeffrey Dahmer was obviously as batty as a bedbug, but he still knew what he did was wrong and tried to hide it from the authorities.

    This guy might have issues or even mental illness and still be legally responsible for his actions.

    Besides, you can be seriously mentally ill and still be a good person. You have choices. And you are responsible for the consequences of those choices.

  203. 203.

    Chad N Freude

    @Southern Beale: The Obama quote is a misquote. The other she-deserved-it comment is the most appalling thing since — oh, I don’t know, Nazi Germany maybe? (Not an instance of Godwin’s Law .)

  207. 207.

    handy

    @Violet:

    But! But! They’re just words and pictures. Obama and his Death Panels said he brought a gun to a knife fight how come you dont critasize that huh libs?!

  209. 209.

    Elizabelle

    @sukabi:

    Referring solely to the station’s call letters, the ironic KGUN.

    I hope this episode finishes off Palin’s influence as well. She gets too much media exposure. Let her climb back under her rock.

  210. 210.

    handy

    By the way, how come always with these people–from 9/11 to Katrina to this–the first they do is squawk like a chicken with its head cut off “Don’t politicize! It’s too early! Think of the tragedy!” And then proceed to do just that themselves (remember during Katrina Sean Hannity whining about school buses, and of course 9/11–I think we all know how that went).

  212. 212.

    JPL

    A friend called me around 3 this afternoon and asked whether or not the shooter was latino. I said I didn’t know but that I doubted it because it would have been mentioned already on the news. She responded, yeah that makes sense. It’s a sign of the times.

  214. 214.

    SIA

    @LarsThorwald: Same here. My husband is liberal but not political or very interested in politics/ideology. When I told him what happened, his response was, “It’s come home to roost”. I asked him, surprised, what he meant, and he said, “Y’know -Sarah Palin and all that teabagger rhetoric”. So that’s the response from the family political bellwether.

    The political environment has been toxic for a long time, but it escalated sharply with Palin’s “Pallin’ around with terrorists”. and there’s no end in sight.

  216. 216.

    JGabriel

    Chad N Freude:

    Not the KKK, I think, but maybe Father Coughlin?

    Well, yeah, that’s a more accurate analogy, due to Coughlin’s identical role as a hate-mongering media personality, but I was responding to r€nato’s analogy about Klan marches — so KKK made more sense in the context.

    .

  217. 217.

    Chad N Freude

    @JGabriel: One thing I like about this blog (maybe the only thing) is the knowledge of US history, US culture, and (occasionally) civil discussion of the above.

  219. 219.

    eemom

    @Chad N Freude:

    uh, it is nice to see you back here. And happy new year.

    (couldn’t quite figure out how to segue that into the present topic, so, ya know, fuck it.)

  220. 220.

    Sanka

    I asked him, surprised, what he meant, and he said, “Y’know -Sarah Palin and all that teabagger rhetoric”. So that’s the response from the family political bellwether.

    Yeah. Such vitriol. Going around saying crap like “If they bring a knife, we bring a gun” and “get in their faces and fight”, really brings the violence home to roost.

    Oh wait.

  223. 223.

    spudvol

    Tragically weird- Arizona TV station reporting the 9 year-old girl was born on 9/11/01.

    KOLD_news13 KOLD News 13
    The 9-year-old who was shot dead today at the Giffords event was featured in a book “Faces of Hope: Babies Born on 9/11.” #Tucson
    1 hour ago Favorite Retweet Reply

  224. 224.

    Chad N Freude

    @eemom: Flattery will get you everywhere. I don’t have much (i.e., any) time to participate in these discussions, but knowing that some people read my comments and actually like them is encouraging. Thanks.

  228. 228.

    PurpleGirl

    @henqiguai: In the case of the VA Tech shooter: he was diagnosed in high school and had been in therapy for a short time. But he was able to stop therapy on his own and the rest is history (as they say).

  230. 230.

    Chad N Freude

    @IronyAbounds: @spudvol: I’m speechless. Which rarely happens. What do you suppose Fox News will make of this? Aha! If the Obama administration had not been so lax in 2001that girl would be alive today!

    ETA: That may sound insensitive. If anyone takes it that way, I apologize. But it’s true.

  231. 231.

    WaterGirl

    @AxelFoley: Don’t be too hard on yourself, the word “obamacare” is a red flag, so it took some work to actually figure out that the comment was supporting health care reform.

    Edit: I see asiangrl got there first.

  233. 233.

    Yutsano

    @The Sheriff’s A Ni-: Ignore it. It won’t get to wash its conscience that easily. It has to live with the fact that it directly or indirectly supported what happened today. It won’t get absolution from me.

  234. 234.

    Sanka

    And fuck Glenn Beck and Sarah Palin. There isn’t a hot enough place in hell for them.

    Please link to a source that indicates the killer actually watched, read or followed either Palin or Beck.

    Or are you normally this bitter?

    Thx…

  235. 235.

    eemom

    John bans one troll and a legion springs up in its place. The modern zombie film, “Night of the Living Troll.”

  237. 237.

    piratedan

    @efgoldman:

    because Pima County is mostly blue….Giffords district is a gerrymandered POS that was supposed to be a safe Red seat but she took over for Jim Kolbe (formerly gay moderate Republican) and was just elected to a thrid term with a plurarlity of votes, if the Libertarian candidate hadn’t gotten 7% of the votes, then we would have been represented by gun totin’ Jesse Kelly.

  238. 238.

    Sanka

    @Chad N Freude: Nah. I’m too busy trying to find out what happened to dKos’ posts “targeting” Gifford and vitriolic comments. Funny how they just disappeared this afternoon.

  239. 239.

    Yutsano

    @eemom: Rubbing salt in the wound. But it won’t get out of its guilt that easily. Because even it knows, in a tiny space in its heart, that this was wrong and it MIGHT just have something to do with it. So now it needs to relieve its conscience. I won’t give it the satisfaction.

  240. 240.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @eemom: Who got banned? Change? Sanka’s more boring than the beverage he’s named for.

    and just to spread good news to counteract the trool stank

    A family friends tells FOX 11 News Rep. Giffords woke up from anesthesia & spoke to people in her room & recognized her husband Mark Kelly.

  241. 241.

    Admiral_Komack

    “Scarily prescient part starts at about the 2.10 minute mark.”

    Fuck Chuck Todd.

    Miserable glib bastard.

  242. 242.

    spudvol

    KOLD_news13 KOLD News 13
    We have called the hospital on this… Rep. Giffords is not conscious. Reports of her recognizing her husband are inaccurate as of 10 p.m.
    6 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

  243. 243.

    amk

    Fuck chuck todd. The fucking fourth estate is who that enabled the tundra trollop and her teaparty goons. The fucking fifth columnists.

  244. 244.

    emily

    @eemom:

    If you look at it this way all we have is Cindy in a culvert.

    Today we have a Democrat with a BULLET TO THE HEAD.

    It doesn’t matter which way this guy swang — it only matters that not one person got shot in the head 2006-2007 except that poor old slop looking for less than fresh booty when Cheney shot him.

    Think about it.

  246. 246.

    piratedan

    @r€nato:

    Well it is true that an Illegal did shoot his son, hence his hatred of all things illegal. For some reason that has resonated with him and Pearce has focused on the fact that an illegal shot and injured his son, not that someone shot and injured his son (as if it would be okay that his son had been tagged by a citizen, but personal family tragedies can cause you to lose it and I understand that). The problem is that this has been a personal vendetta for Pearce ever since and if he happens to make a buck off of it (as the private prison industry is won’t to do) well we’re supposed to just chalk that up as reparations.

  247. 247.

    Chad N Freude

    @Sanka: Got it. You’re too busy to wonder if Palin or her handlers think there might be a connection between her gunsight graphic and a gun user.

    ETA:That should be ” a gun user who shot one of the targets in the graphic.”

  250. 250.

    Anya

    @Southern Beale:

    Apparently Palin’s FB page is awash with hate right now. They cleaners can’t keep up.

    I checked a link from another blog and I was amazed. I though, the emmediatly removed any critical comment but there were people accusing Sarah Palin of having “blood in her hand” and being “accessory to murder” and other serious charges and they did not delete it yet. Are they all in shock crying over the complete collapse of her political influence?

  251. 251.

    JGabriel

    Sanka:

    Please link to a source that indicates the killer actually watched, read or followed either Palin or Beck.

    The sentiment expressed — that there isn’t a place in hell hot enough for Palin and Beck — seems to be a perfectly legitimate assertion whether or not the Tucson killer followed them, though his gold standard comments so perfectly mimic Beck’s concerns that it does seem likely.

    But whatever the shooter’s mental status and preferred media diversions, this is a prime example of what Sharon Angle called Second Amendment Remedies. While not using those exact words, Palin and Beck have both used equally violent rhetoric in their advocacy.

    So why the defensive act? They got what they wanted, a Second Amendment Remedy to a political contest they lost in November.

    C’mon, Sanka. Isn’t that what your team wanted? To show those fucking liberals who’s in charge? That if you can’t beat ’em at the ballot box, you’ll beat ’em with the bullet box?

    Don’t act so shocked and defensive. Your team achieved what they were aiming for (aiming, haha, get it?) all along.

    You should be proud.

    .

  252. 252.

    Admiral_Komack

    @Louise:

    “Shame on everyone who fanned the flames. Shame on me for not fighting harder against it.”

    What could you do?

    The talking heads won’t listen to you, and the politicians will simply glib it away.

    Hell, the talking heads will glib it away, too.

  254. 254.

    Sanka

    this is a prime example of what Sharon Angle called Second Amendment Remedies

    I thought it was a prime example of bringing a gun instead of a knife?

  256. 256.

    emily

    please, someone point me to all of those Republicans with bullets in their head over the Iraq war.

    What? There are none? Oh wait. there is Cheney.

  258. 258.

    PanAmerican

    @Anya:

    Is you, or is you ain’t my constituency?
    Oh, come on, folks.
    No. It’s Sarah now.
    I’m a friend of the little man.
    This is not fair! Hey! Come on!
    Come on, we got a little misunderstanding here.
    God damn!

  262. 262.

    Chad N Freude

    @JGabriel: Sanka’s comment is lawyerly and logically incontestable. We have no evidence at the moment that Beck, Limbaugh, And Hannity (BLAH) contributed anything at all to the mindset that produced this awful (wrings hands) crime. We must presume that he was motivated entirely by internal psychological factors and not influenced at all by anything he might have found on TV or radio.

  264. 264.

    emily

    @Anya:

    Who did you assassinate during the WAR of 2006-2007?

    Were you alive then?

    Speak up and claim all of the dead, if you will please including the politicians in the claimed dead column.

    What? You have nothing? What?

  265. 265.

    Barb (formerly Gex)

    @freelancer: I’m guessing there wasn’t a name for that family friend. That anonymous source was probably the hairy mole on the station managers ass.

  266. 266.

    JGabriel

    Sanka:

    I thought it was a prime example of bringing a gun instead of a knife?

    Again, I repeat my questions:

    So why the defensive act? [The GOP] got what they wanted, a Second Amendment Remedy to a political contest they lost in November.
    __
    C’mon, Sanka. Isn’t that what your team wanted? To show those fucking liberals who’s in charge? That if you can’t beat ‘em at the ballot box, you’ll beat ‘em with the bullet box?

    I don’t know why you’re defensive about this, and not answering the questions I asked. You and your fellow Tea Partiers and Fox News viewers, you should all be pumping your fists in the air and high-fiving each other. You got the Second Amendment Remedy you threatened America with if they voted for Democrats.

    Where’s your joie de vivre? We don’t expect to see defensiveness from you. We expect to see you celebrating.

    .

  269. 269.

    Yutsano

    @JGabriel: I suppose, on the one hand, we should feel grateful they’re even capable of acknowledging their guilt. Then I remember all the other cwap they believe in and my generous spirit runs off. I think it’s a moral failing on my part.

  272. 272.

    Yutsano

    @asiangrrlMN: Minor edit point: I would put up the link to the left-wing person who suggested the violence. Not doing so kinda looks like you’re hiding something. Otherwise quite beautimous.

    If you can get them in your grocery store, always buy heirloom maters. I swear I will never get a commercial Roma again if I can help it.

  274. 274.

    Chad N Freude

    @JGabriel: I thought the Second Amendment Remedy was something you order from late-night TV infomercials to alleviate the Second Amendment.

    ETA: It makes your gun bigger.

  275. 275.

    asiangrrlMN

    @Yutsano: Yeah. True. I will find it and include it if I can. Can you help me find it? It was the lefty who said something about Palin dying in a plane crash.

    ETA: Never mind. I found it. I will add.

    FYWP.

  276. 276.

    hamletta

    @JGabriel: God help me for thinking this, but I’m seeing Sharron Angle chirping: “I’m going to Disneyland!”

    I am a bad, sick person. Good thing I have church in the morning. Not that it’ll help.

  277. 277.

    JGabriel

    @Chad N Freude: Yes, but the point is: Why is Sanka bothering to act as if the shooting in Tucson was at all regrettable? I don’t get it.

    Various Republican candidates distributed graphics with gunsights on Giffords’ district and threatened Second Amendment Remedies in the event of Republican losses. Sanka should be ecstatic that a Second Amendment Remedy was applied in Arizona.

    Instead of acting like the GOP had nothing to do with it and that Dems are ghastly hypocrites for suggesting such a thing, Sanka should be gloating and revelling in our tragedy. Sanka should be shouting to the heavens, “Yeah, motherfuckers! Second Amendment Remedies all the way! We warned you you and we pwned you! Boo-yah!”

    Any other response from Sanka is really nothing more than hypocrisy.

    What’s the use of making threats if you’re not going to lord it over your enemies when you bring them to fruition?

    .

  279. 279.

    freelancer

    @Barb (formerly Gex):

    To be fair, many, many Fox local affiliates aren’t beholden to the larger Fox/Newscorps behemouth, they are usually just mediocre in their reporting and production value. The local Fox affiliate here in Omaha would be better served if they just ran the broadcasting class of a local High School’s production of their “news” and “reporting. Their 9pm hour of news looks shoddy, has constant glitches, typos in Chyrons, mismatched graphics, shitty copywriting and a barely Web 2.0 website full of needless goofs. It’s just an embarrassment all around, and I don’t know anything about Tucson’s Fox station, but if they’re anything like Fox 42 here, then I’m not surprised they got a little or a lot wrong.

  280. 280.

    Mark S.

    @asiangrrlMN:

    You didn’t miss much. It was kind of like having some jock-sniffer like Hannity comment here: “Rah! Rah! Republicans rule! Democrats drool!”

    I see daveinboca showed up on one of the other threads. It’s a Balloon Juice Troll Reunion Special tonight!

  284. 284.

    Cain

    @askew:

    I just want to thank Balloon Juice for being sane today. I made a mistake and peaked at Daily Kos. There is a front-page post criticizing Obama on this issue already. The comments are filled with rantings about Obama’s balls.

    DailyKOS can go suck it. Looks like the nutroots will blame anything on Obama. They can collectively all DIAF.

    cain

  285. 285.

    Chad N Freude

    @JGabriel: Thanks. May I have a Certificate of Approval? (That would be a lot funnier if you knew anything about where I work.)

  286. 286.

    Barb (formerly Gex)

    @freelancer: Fair enough. But do we think a family friend actually told them she was conscious and recognizing her husband when she wasn’t?

    ETA: Oh, and I don’t equate hairy mole on ass to FOX corporate. I think you might have gotten a wrong impression of what I was saying.

  287. 287.

    Cain

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Not even a little. As someone posted, the gun-fetishists are arguing that if more people had guns, someone could have dropped the killer. I’m pretty agnostic about guns myself, but I really can’t understand the emotional investment people have in these metal compensators. “They wanna take my guns away” is one of main supports of the Republicans as a national party.

    I really doubt that other people packing heat would be have helped. There is 20-30 people there, he’d have a lot cover. He doesn’t give a shit about lives, but the others probably don’t want to shoot anybody else but the shooter.

    Plus, these kind of things happen pretty fast. The first thing you’ll be doing is trying to find cover or hit the deck. By that time, it’s all over you’r not going to be able to much else. Maybe once you get cover you could do something but those first couple of seconds is pretty critical.
    cain

  290. 290.

    Barb (formerly Gex)

    @Cain: I think to the right, if a bad guy comes in like that, and everyone else draws and starts shooting, it is a good outcome if the bad guy gets it. I’m not sure that they care about collateral damage.

  291. 291.

    Chad N Freude

    @Cain:

    others probably don’t want to shoot anybody else but the shooter

    And they would probably aim so accurately that no bystanders would be shot.

    Is there a Golden Globes award for Really Dumb Comments?

  293. 293.

    Cain

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    and just to spread good news to counteract the trool stank
    A family friends tells FOX 11 News Rep. Giffords woke up from anesthesia & spoke to people in her room & recognized her husband Mark Kelly.
    Reply

    Hot damn! I’m glad to hear that!

    cain

  294. 294.

    AxelFoley

    @WaterGirl:

    @AxelFoley: Don’t be too hard on yourself, the word “obamacare” is a red flag, so it took some work to actually figure out that the comment was supporting health care reform.
    Edit: I see asiangrl got there first.

    Thanks, WaterGirl. I still shouldn’t have been so quick to jump on it, but yeah, the “Obamacare” line did set off alarms. Just upset with today’s events and my fuse was short.

  295. 295.

    sukabi

    @Cain: you know what the outcome of more people with guns at something like this would be? Guy starts shooting, people pull their guns and EVERYONE with a gun becomes a target… it would end up a shoot out at the OK corral… it’s not that hard to figure out…there would be mass confusion because not everybody that was packing would see who started it, just that people are shooting, and they’ve got to shoot the shooter.

  296. 296.

    Cain

    @Chad N Freude:

    Is there a Golden Globes award for Really Dumb Comments?

    Hey I know that they can’t accurate shoot worth a nickel, but they still are under the onus that they can’t shoot up the place. That’s why arming everybody doesn’t work. There is nothing dumb about my comments other than it’s obvious to the rest of us but not NRA fuckheads.

    cain

  297. 297.

    handy

    @Chad N Freude:

    Apparently you have not visited the farm where Sanka raises crying crocodiles.

    My dog is looking at me all sorts of funny I laughed so hard at this.

  298. 298.

    CircleSquared

    @JGabriel: Yes, that is interesting, and do keep asking the question. Seems to me Sanka should be happy about this clear example of a “Second Amendment Solution” to the problem of voters electing the wrong person, as shown in the sarahpac image and the “shoot with kelly” ad from her GOP rival.

    But that would demonstrate both consistency and honesty, two things I don’t normally associate with Republican positions. Or trolls.

  299. 299.

    Cain

    @sukabi:

    @Cain: you know what the outcome of more people with guns at something like this would be? Guy starts shooting, people pull their guns and EVERYONE with a gun becomes a target… it would end up a shoot out at the OK corral… it’s not that hard to figure out…there would be mass confusion because not everybody that was packing would see who started it, just that people are shooting, and they’ve got to shoot the shooter.

    Yet another reason why it’s fucking stupid to think that arming everybody would work. That was my point. NRA folks are so fucking stupid. I bet 90% of them have never been in combat. Even I haven’t been and I can tell you that arming everybody would never work.

    cain

  300. 300.

    sukabi

    Fox News abruptly cuts away from Tucson vigil after mourner mentions Sarah Palin

    As they awaited the beginning of a Pima County Sheriff’s Department press conference, Fox News host Shep Smith cued a live video from the vigil for Rep. Gabrielle Giffords (D-AZ), who sustained a bullet wound to the head and was among a total of 19 shot in a sudden attack outside a grocery store.

    At the vigil, which was carried live by some — including CNN’s website — a man stepped up to the microphone holding a candle and implored those in power to ask themselves why they actually want to be in such a position.

    “And I say to you, Sarah Palin,” he began, just before Fox News abruptly cut the feed.

    In video that seemed to be unavailable late Saturday, the man continued, calling for violent rhetoric in politics and the media to be toned down. His sentiment was seemingly echoed by Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik.

  304. 304.

    Cain

    @Chad N Freude:

    @Cain: I guess your comment wasn’t clear to me.

    Ah, my bad. I was trying to make the point that having the populace armed would not prevent it and that this situation would have required someone with training to properly react to it. Because all that shooting would have only taken a couple of minutes and it would have been all been over. Reacting to it and then trying to figure out who shot, who to target and what not while maintaining cover..

    Plus if you did shoot him, we’d never figure out why he shot up everyone in the first place. Taking him alive and being able to question him is exactly where we want to be.

    cain

  305. 305.

    asiangrrlMN

    @Mnemosyne: Yes, true. In general, most of the DIAF, eat a bag of salted dicks, etc., are of that nature. It’s not trying to point anyone to actually harming someone. Still. I did immediately think of the Sarah Palin/plane crash thing and thought it was in poor taste, so I added it.

    ETA: Still, the vast majority of the violent rhetoric comes from the right. I will not back down on that.

  306. 306.

    Zach

    @AxelFoley: No big deal. I’d given up on opposing the “Obamacare” phraseology a long time ago in forums such as this one and can see why using it rings alarm bells. To reiterate, Obamacare means more folks who are as disturbed as this guy was will be identified and treated than would otherwise be the case. This is a good thing. Not engaging in political rhetoric that revolves around shooting people also helps. Challenging people who traffic in political rhetoric that caters to schizophrenic people is the next step. If Ron Paul runs for President again, he should be repeatedly asked to explain his stance on the Fed, the gold standard, the Amero, the NAFTA superhighway, etc to reveal him for the crackpot that he is.

  307. 307.

    piratedan

    @Mnemosyne: hey now, they already tried the former when they had that “pray in” hoping that Sen Byrd would be struck down before he could vote for HCR by that God fearin’ minister Sen Coburn of Oklahoma….since that didn’t work and God refused to intervene for reasons unfathomable to the righteous they’ve had to resort to more indirect methods I suppose

  308. 308.

    Barb (formerly Gex)

    @Cain: I’ve wondered how the gun folks expect law enforcement to sort it all out if there are a pile of bodies and everyone else is armed. Seems a good way to take a team into a joint and only let one guy take a fall while everyone else can just fire away.

  309. 309.

    Barb (formerly Gex)

    @asiangrrlMN: I like having it included. First to avoid making it look like you are downplaying leftwing rhetoric. Second because it provides a nice demonstration of the qualitative difference between left and right rhetoric.

    “DIAF” is a figure of speech.

    “we at TRN (Turner Radio Network) believe that being decent to a group of tyrannical scumbags is the wrong approach. It’s too soft. Thankfully, the Founding Fathers gave us the tools necessary to resolve tyranny: The Second Amendment. TRN advocates Catholics in Connecticut take up arms and put down this tyranny by force … If any state attorney, police department or court thinks they’re going to get uppity with us about this, I suspect we have enough bullets to put them down, too.” Is not.

    Unfortunately, people on the right seem to have trouble with nuance and subtleties like that.

  310. 310.

    Mnemosyne

    @asiangrrlMN:

    I think you were right to mention it, if only to avoid getting into the “but what about THIS statement!” attempts at derailing.

    But I still think it’s worth pointing out the difference between wishing someone would die accidentally and wishing that someone will be murdered.

  311. 311.

    Xenos

    @asiangrrlMN: If some mentally unbalanced person read one of your rants, and proceeded to rape a prominent republican with a rusty farm implement, I expect that you would feel pretty bad and would want to apologize for whatever role your rhetoric may have had in the crime.

    You would not need anyone to prove a seamless chain of causation from your statement to the act, because you have a conscience. Or at least I think you do.

  312. 312.

    sukabi

    @Cain: also adding, that the number of people trained and competent to handle the guns they carry is minute… but it would go down to nil in a situation like yesterdays….

  313. 313.

    A Humble Lurker

    @Xenos:

    If some mentally unbalanced person read one of your rants, and proceeded to rape a prominent republican with a rusty farm implement, I expect that you would feel pretty bad and would want to apologize for whatever role your rhetoric may have had in the crime.

    Maybe I missed it asiangrrlMN, but did you ever run for Vice President and become a public figure and thus would have this expected of you?

  314. 314.

    agrippa

    Words are deeds and have consequences.

    One cannot engage in inflammatory rhetoric and deny consequences that follow.

  315. 315.

    El Cid

    @Xenos:

    If some mentally unbalanced person read one of your rants, and proceeded to rape a prominent republican with a rusty farm implement, I expect that you would feel pretty bad and would want to apologize for whatever role your rhetoric may have had in the crime.
    __
    You would not need anyone to prove a seamless chain of causation from your statement to the act, because you have a conscience. Or at least I think you do.

    Of course I would feel terrible, and guilty. I mean, much more so if I really was quite directly suggesting something awful. It gets more more distant as you’re just addressing larger political topics. If you write a book not advocating any violence, or even the opposite, but about how all levels of government and the economy are ruining the global ecology perhaps irrecoverably, and some nut bombs some target based on that, you don’t have any responsibility to feel bad.

    But the probability would likely be lower of such a thing happening if I weren’t some really influential figure. The general probability of such a following would be much higher if I were somewhat well-known internet writer with some dedicated following, and even more so if I were an actual public figure such as an elected official or a major media pundit.

    A lot of people with appreciation of the general principles of ‘anarchism’ (the version of it being some type of completely participatory soshullist government and economy) look back at those advocating individual violence as transformative and seeing how the bomb-throwers and assassins of the late 19th century totally screwed the movement and the name and the ideas in the US permanently. And those writing influential works advocating such violence are the ones who pushed it into happening.

    As paranoid and pro-violence rhetoric then escalates and spreads among more and more sources and more and more public figures, it may be harder to pin down some individual ‘responsibility’, but that doesn’t mean that those adding to the collective noise don’t bear moral responsibility. There is no doubt whatsoever that the asshole militia / survivalist / Christianist identity freaks / white supremacist media & radio (especially shortwave) constant bombardment, backed by the purposeful conspiracy mongers against Bill and Hillary Clinton, prompted violence such as Timothy McVeigh.

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