Old friend Big Daddy speculates:
From what I can tell, Laughner isn’t a right-winger or a left-winger, and there’s not much coherent about his motivations. He appears to want to create a new currency, a new religion, and thinks that the government is controlling us through grammar. In other words, I don’t think he was after any congress person in particular, not Giffords for her politics specifically. She was simply the nearest at hand.
Given that police are seeking a (EDIT) possible accomplice, we in fact know absolutely nothing about the motivation for the attack. If there is an accomplice, we don’t know if the accomplice planned the shootings that Loughner carried out. We don’t know what the accomplice’s political motivations might have been. We don’t know if there is some larger group involved with the planning, be it a fringe group of PETA or the Tea Party Express.
I’m not saying that any of that is likely, just that, given that police are seeking an accomplice, it’s much too early to say that Gifford was not specifically targeted or that the motivations here were neither left-wing nor right-wing.
People who want to be seen as nonpartisan are always anxious to prove their centrist bona fides by saying “both sides do it” or “neither side did it”. Sully-friendly centrism comes with its own set of biases just as much as partisanship does.
arguingwithsignposts
a *9-year-old* is dead because of this. let’s play some false equivalency. fuck them all.
Linda Featheringill
The folks in Washington [Obama, Boehner, etc.] Seem to think that this was a political shooting, an attempt to assissinate Gabby.
Conspiracy? I don’t know.
Maude
Remember former Governor Kean (R, Clueless, NJ) said that the 9/11 comission din’t want to place blame. Well, they didn’t place blame and it was a worthless report.
How do they explain that the killer walked right up to the Congresswoman and shot her point blank in the head?
xian
turns out palin’s graphic has surveyor’s symbols, not crosshairs, so she’s off the hook!
you’ll find this argument copy-pasted to troll-ridden comment sections across the web today.
nitpicker
Well, it does seem that, even crazy, Loughner clearly incorporated some radical Tenther rhetoric into his nutty worldview. He wrote under one of his YouTube videos, “All purchases for an educational course in The United States as of now are unconstitutional in the United States of America because of Section 10 in the United States of America’s Constitution. A student paying for a Pima Community College course is a purchase for an educational course in the United States as of now. Therefore, a student paying for a Pima Community College course is unconstitutional in the United States of America because of Section 10 in the United States of America’s Constitution.If you’re receiving a grade from Pima Community College class then the grade you’re receiving is unconstitutional because of the United States Bill of Rights. “
SteveinSC
@Linda Featheringill:
It better the fuck not be. I don’t want the assholes like beck, palin, limpballs being asked to tone it down. It’s like “boy we have the weapon against these liberals and, out the goodness of our hearts, we’ll tone it down until we need it again.” This thing needs to play out. I don’t want to beg these assholes for anything.
liberal
Sounds like the shooter was schizophenic; seems pretty unlikely there’d be two true schizophrenics working together, but who knows.
El Cid
O/T, Frank Rich in today’s NYT column points out an intelligent innovation in questions presented at a Republican candidate debate.
I’m sorry to say I never thought of that approach, but it is a bit bold on the moderator’s part by acknowledging the tired hack answer to any question about most respected leader and creator of all that is holy and the first demi-god to bring freedom to the Earth.
hueyplong
While we’re posting photos of incendiary rhetoric, how about those liberal hunting licenses being held by grinning, gun toting right wingers? Photos of that ilk have circulated for years
rachel
@liberal: Is this supposed to be some kind of joke? (Excuse me, it’s midnight here, so my brain’s not working too well.)
lacp
Because so little real information has been made available (and there might not be a lot more right now), the suspect’s words are about all we have in regard to his motivation. And they’re (to put it mildly) very, very strange. The government is controlling us through grammar? That doesn’t sound political – that sounds like a schizophrenic linguistics major. Situation doesn’t seem nearly as clear-cut as with the guy in CA who was going after the Tides Foundation because Beck told him they were evil.
Unfortunately, the short attention span of the news media means this story will probably disappear by the end of the week. So it’s probably going to take some digging to find out what was actually going on in this guy’s head.
Matt
From what I’ve heard this morning, it appears that he was probably suffering from paranoid schizophrenia. He had a disturbed thought process that goes back to high school. Classmates have said that he would ask nonsensical questions in math class. He previously had encountered Congresswoman Giffords and asked her a question that a witness said made no sense. This was probably a personal paranoid delusion that drove him to act, rather than a political one. As much as I hate the violent rhetoric of the right, and think they can drove people to this sort of violence, I think that in this case it wasn’t related and he was an accident waiting to happen.
The bigger question was that his illness appears to be pretty obvious (even the military turned him down), where are his parents, teachers, school officials and social workers that should have interveaned.
JCT
@hueyplong: Or the ones with names, faces and addresses of physicians who provide abortions?
Barnett Slepian — blown away through his kitchen window with his kids at home
And all the others including Tiller — murdered in church.
There’s a long, long history of this sort of imagery.
@xian — oh yes, of course they were from Surveyor’s scopes. Can any of those imbeciles explain how we “reload” a scope since bark of that campaign was “don’t retreat, RELOAD”. They doth protest too much.
sidhra
That’s as may be, but the shooter’s close to hand latest political contest featured Giffords’ opponent waving guns around and inviting folks to shoot a fully operational M-16 to “”Get On Target For Victory In November [and] Help Remove Gabrielle From Office.” While a rational person might not find that in itself a call to political assassination, a less stable individual could, and apparently did.
E.D. Kain
Okay. In the paragraph right before this you say:
So are you then calling yourself out for this “neither side did it” craziness?
Really, Doug, this is a phenomenally lazy post. You think I’m trying to shore up my “centrist bonafides” by saying that neither side “did it” when you yourself say that we don’t know what motivated the attack?
I don’t know if Loughner was motivated by right-wing talk radio. It seems likely that he was motivated by a whole bunch of fringy, paranoid, conspiracy theories. The real stretch here would be to say that we do know what caused him to target Giffords, that it is obviously the Glenn Becks of the world who are at fault here. Nice and easy, fits your bias of the world, blah blah blah.
What a ridiculous post. Immediately writing anyone off who doesn’t instantly blame conservatives first and foremost as a “both sides do it” centrist is trite and lazy and it gets old fast.
E.D. Kain
Also, I don’t like the fearmongering and I’m well aware that the right is more responsible for it than the left these days. But what annoys me just as much are people using this tragedy for their own political ends, and what I’ve seen around this site the last day and a half is pretty depressing. Using this tragedy to attack your political opponents – before any real facts have been gathered about the incident – is just opportunistic and sad.
Sarcastro
I bet $100 that the Kain – DougJ argument ends in feverish kissing.
arguingwithsignposts
@E.D. Kain:
You’ve been absent from the site for weeks, and now you pop up to play the false equivalency game? Pony up and post something on the front page, dude. Otherwise, stfu.
E.D. Kain
@arguingwithsignposts: Oh give me a fucking break. You whine and whine and whine that I don’t get in the comments enough and now I do and I should be posting on the front page? Whatever man.
C. Gallagher
Did they find the shooter’s car? It was one of the first questions I saw asked in early reports, but none since. Like much of the southwest, Arizona is not a walking- or public transportation- friendly place. People in shopping mall parking lots almost always have to drive themselves there, and if you’re carrying a gun and extra mega-clips I imagine that might make you a conspicuous pedestrian, although perhaps not in Arizona. If no car, then how did he get there?
arguingwithsignposts
@E.D. Kain:
You’re here now, man. get on the front page. people have been wondering where you went. And fwiw, I was not a chief “he’s not in the comments” complainer.
Alex S.
@E.D. Kain:
It wasn’t just a random shooting. Giffords was shot with a single bullet into the head. And we do have the words of the sheriff who partly blamed incendiary rhetoric. And you acknowledge that the right is more responsible for that than the left. And I’d argue that the right has institutionalized this kind of language whereas the left has not.
aimai
@E.D. Kain:
We aren’t “using this tragedy to attack our political opponents” we are *observing that one political party, from the top to the bottom, has been fomenting violence against members of the other political party from the bottom to the top* for the last three years. The rhetorical attacks on Obama during the primary, on liberals/leftists in general, the hysterical “defense of the second amendment” stuff along with the fetishization of gun rights in AZ particularly makes this piece of violence simply foretold.
This pot was set boiling by the far right and the Republican party and now they are pointing toward the turbulence in the water and saying “oh, nobody can hold us responsible for the way the water is moving or that single piece of flotsam and jetsam?” That’s not the way the world works. The hate from the right is broadcast, literally over talk radio, every day. It is widecast on the internet. When Palin and the others talk freely of “traitors” destroying the country and of the government as the enemy the only thing separating them from nihilists is the fact that they are simply using this language to get into power themselves. They are responsible for a climate of rage on the right, and fear on the left. That one or the other of their weak minded followers actually did something isn’t an accident. It was utterly predictable.
aimai
Peter
@E.D. Kain: Whoa, what a rare beastie!
A rare beastie bearing a bullshit comment. It’s not at all a false equivalency to say that we don’t know if this guy was involved in fringe groups, and what they are if he was. And I’m sure you know that, Kain, because despite your attempt to convince us here, you’re not a stupid person.
Maude
@E.D. Kain:
Both sides don’t do it.
Most talk radio is rightie. The constant drumbeat of their voices does have an effect.
I am not saying that conservative people are to blame. They don’t spew hatred. I am talking about the Attention getters, the one who make mega bucks out of lies and violent expressions toward the government.
It’s the connection between Palin’s map and the shooting that was instantly percieved. I know I can’t spell and it’s good to see you in comments.
E.D. Kain
@arguingwithsignposts: Fair enough. I guess I just lose track.
Ash Can
@E.D. Kain: With Giffords getting shot in the head some months after she herself deplored Sarah Palin identifying her and others on a map with rifle crosshairs, the narrative kind of writes itself, now, doesn’t it?
SiubhanDuinne
@xian #4: and in western astrology, that’s the symbol for the Part of Fortune, so I guess that fact partly, fortunately, takes Palin off the hook?
Morans.
polyorchnid octopunch
@liberal: Have you considered the possibility of a politically motivated person exploiting a paranoid schizophrenic to do the dirty work for him?
Linda Featheringill
Some of us are not trying to make political points on left vs right from this tragedy.
Some of us honestly think that the irresponsible fear mongering from some folks on the right actually caused this tragedy and we may need to tone it down in order to prevent other tragedies.
Omnes Omnibus
@E.D. Kain: Would you prefer high minded “pox on both their houses” attitude? You are unlikely to find it here since most people here, FPers and commenters alike, have been politically aware for the past few years and know which side has been amping up the rhetoric, which side’s supporters have been showing up armed at political meeting, which side’s supporters have worked hard to shut down debate on any issues, and which side has questioned the legitimacy of the other sides elected leaders. And, brother, it ain’t the Left.
Phoebe
All very true, DougJarvis, but “Sully” is not guilty of this here; he pointed a finger at the “violent rhetoric” and it goes without saying that the v.r. comes from the right.
Judas Escargot
@E.D. Kain:
I don’t know if Loughner was motivated by right-wing talk radio.
Schizophrenics aren’t rational, so they can’t be said to have ‘motivations’ in the proper sense.
But: which side has had the consistently violent tone? One side.
Which side has consistently questioned the very legitimacy of the current government? One side.
Which side has been flooding the media with all these emotionally-driven images, despite being warned for fucking years that it might set off the crazies? One side.
It seems likely that he was motivated by a whole bunch of fringy, paranoid, conspiracy theories.
Wonder where most of those are coming from, these days?
I scoured his youtube craziness as much as anyone else. Don’t recall seeing anything there that would indicate he was a 9/11 truther, a Chomskyite, or an anarcho-syndicalist.
One side.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@polyorchnid octopunch:
This tragedy was fueled by the toxic atmosphere that the right has been fostering for too long. Crazy people are out there and they know that if they push the right buttons that they will get the response they want. Then all they have to do is sit back and enjoy their handiwork. The M$M will say ‘both sides do it’ and everyone will soon forget about it ever happening.
I have been reading and not posting because I really expected this to happen yet I still don’t know what to say about it other than to say that this isn’t over, nor will it ever be. I started to write something several times yesterday and every single time I read it I deleted it.
Six people are dead and many others are wounded, all because a political party wants to regain power in any way they can and some nutcase decided that they were asking for help. This guy is no leftie, not with all of the tenther and gold shit he has been screeching about. I have no doubt that this guy has been hearing voices telling him to kill people.
Republican voices, and they came through loud and clear.
An aside: Meteor Blades (GoS) can FOAD. That shit he wrote yesterday about what Obama needs to say about this is nothing more than more selfish bullshit. They pull out their tape measure, point at some arbitrary number and tell everyone that if Obama doesn’t do this then he doesn’t measure up. The shit-flinging fest in that thread was something to behold.
Fuck the manic progressives, what a bunch of selfish assholes.
Speaking of assholes, Erickkk, Son of Erickkk, pulled their TobyToons ‘fill in the cartoon bubble’ contest because it may have made them look bad. EE did put up a link to TobyToons site where the cartoon is, so I will give that scumbag that much. The cartoon?
Look for yourself.
Linda Featheringill
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
Hi, Odie. Wanna share my box of Kleenex?
That cartoon is asinine.
The Sheriff’s Dept in Tucson has released the picture of the “person of interest” they were looking for.
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/44/2011/01/law-enforcement-releases-photo.html
Parallel 5ths (Jewish Steel)
It’ll be interesting to see our stenographer press corps turn into a bunch of forensic Sigmund Fucking Freuds. Where is all this analysis and truth-telling when non-sexy stuff is happening like, hm, say policy? Or shit politicians say?
DougJarvus Green-Ellis
@E.D. Kain:
So the antidote for fearmongering is baseless speculation?
Hillary Rettig
sorry you brought PETA into it. it’s a sensitive issue because no group is more harassed and prosecuted by the government as “terrorists” simply for exercising first amendment rights than animal rights and environmental activists. See:
http://www.greenisthenewred.com/blog/
Activists have been prosecuted and convicted under the Orwellian Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act for exercising their rights to free speech and free assembly. (AETA was in itself a corrupt legislative gift to agribusiness.) And it was widely reported that, pre Democratic convention in Minneapolis, the FBI was infiltrating animal rights and vegan groups.
People are in high security jails simply for speaking freely, so please let’s not conflate animal/green activists with terrorists.
dww44
By way of the above, I just finished watching “Mr. All- sides- do-it” Howard Kurtz giving Sarah Palin a total pass on this and equating Keith Olbermann’s piece/show last night as being equivalent to the media figures on the right. Joe Klein, as guest, was a little more upfront about calling out the rightwingers on Fox, but both were giving MSNBC a hard time. No doubt, KO got on his high horse last night, but what Kurtz did not point out was that Keith also categorized himself with O’Reilly, Beck, Palin, Limbaugh and the like about toning down the rhetoric and gave a specific example of something he said in the past.
I have long thought that Kurtz is really a conservative wearing the ostensibly non-partisan garb of an objective observer of the political scene. Or is he just another version of the “inside-the-beltway” mindset and worldview?
The sheriff of Pima County AZ is still at the top of my current most admired list. Not just because he gives voice to what I believe, but because he is willing to call a spade a spade and thank God he opened up the conversation we have to have as a country.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Linda Featheringill:
When I look at pics of the aftermath of the shooting, tears flowed freely. The looks of horror and more on their faces were just too much. I have a nice, healthy daughter who has grown up and thinking about what the parents and family of the nine year old girl are having to deal with is making me ill.
Horror isn’t a strong enough word to describe it.
Thanks for the link to the pic of the person wanted for questioning, I’m glad they have that to go on. If there was others involved then there is no doubt that this was a targeted attack by a rightist organization/confederacy.
WereBear
Bill O’Reilly suffered no penalties for years of calling Dr. Tiller “Tiller the Baby Killer.”
Even before the doctor was murdered, he just kept on his merry way.
By taking each instance in isolation; yes, one can mount a rhetorical defense of each instance, not least claiming one was “joking.”
But add them up… add them all up… and I defy anyone to keep saying what so many of them say.
Elvis Elvisberg
Imagine there were TV shows once a month or so depicting school shooters in a somewhat positive light.
It would hardly be far-fetched to imagine that troubled, alienated teens who took up arms against their classmates were influenced to some degree by that idea rattling around in the culture.
Now, every single day, we have the entire right wing from top to bottom, and their allies/leaders in the right-wing paramedia, (1) blatantly lying about the threat to our country posed by the Left, with emotion-laden lies like “government takeover of health care,” “shredding the Constitution,” “destroying America,” pouring gasoline on white people, and (2) actually arguing in favor of “Second Amendment remedies,” putting gun sights on Democratic congressmen, etc.
In some measure because the entire Republican Party from top to bottom has abandoned all policy beliefs in exchange for Southern Strategy rhetoric, we have events like the Glenn Becck fan who murdered a guard at the Holocaust Museum, the Bill O’Reilly & Sean Hannity fan who shot up a church he thought to be left-leaning in Tennessee. And that doesn’t even touch anti-abortion violence (remember, the right doesn’t actually care about reducing abortion, because they never advocate effective sex education or birth control or increased access to health care or anything other than violence on that issue).
That is the world we’re living in.
mapaghimagsik
I’m not sure I can express my thoughts really well here, but I’ll give it a shot.
In Iraq, thanks to our lovely little adventure, events like this were a very common occurrence. Perhaps all those people who are horrified now might want to think on that a little.
I’m not very optimistic right now. We’ll shed tears we’ll be horrified, and we’ll go right back to it.
A Humble Lurker
@mapaghimagsik:
I get your point, but how do you know whether those who are horrified now didn’t fight against us going into that little adventure tooth and nail or not?