Have at it.
*** Update ***
According to my twitter feed, the President is speechifying. I’m not watching because personally, and I know I will get flamed for it, I don’t think politicians should be at these kinds of memorials at all. He may be giving a bang-up speech, and everything, but I just get uncomfortable with politicians at funerals. Well, funerals of civilians. Politicians, military/police funerals, heads of state, it seems appropriate. But it just strikes me as weird to have these politicians speaking at civilian events. But then again, I have no use for memorial services whatsoever. They don’t make much sense- the person just died, I remember them fine. Not to mention, I don’t need someone else telling me what to think about the dead person. It would make more sense to hold the memorial ten years later.
Having said all that, this memorial is not about what I think, as the families obviously want him there. And I’m absolutely damned sure that the wingnuts will make hay about it no matter what happens.
So, which is it, Cole? Did you fire EDK or ban matoko_chan?
And the wingnuts recycle their Paul Wellstone memorial posts in three, two….
ZOMFG, where is the TelePrompterOTUS?
Is he channeling this directly from the islamo-fasci-socku-whatnot-hivemind?
So, the President’s speech is supposed to be outstanding. He’s just started, but I’ve got it paused briefly waiting for my wife.
@baldheadeddork: Do I get to tell them when they’re doing memorial services wrong? If you don’t eat the body of the departed you’re disrespecting them.
Alright, I sick of the cheering now.
It’s gotta be college kids.
at some point it just becomes interruption, and messes up the candence of the speech.
this isn’t the grammies, and it should not be liek applauding
for who you know
@baldheadeddork: It’s already up, t-shirts were placed on seats.
Mr Stagger Lee
I wonder if the orange-man is sober to hear the President?
Ugh, the students at the service really need to learn the difference between a solemn occasion and a basketball game.
@Regnad Kcin: He carried his “teleprompter” with him onto the stage (the folder he was carrying).
Of course it’s college kids. But I still think they’d have the sense to tone it down.
Obama realizes the right mood, at least.
It’s disconcerting to hear cheers, whistles, and applause during what should be such a solemn occasion.
The hooting and hollering (by students) is not helpful to establishing a somber mood. Prior to Obama speaking, it sounded like an upbeat political rally.
Trying to stay away from politics tonight. Just can’t cope with it tonight.
Dude, it’s UofA. If this was ASU, they’d probably be knocking a beach ball around the crowd and doing kegstands…
@freelancer: It’s a similar situation to the one between Peter King and Louis Gohmert. Such a dilemma.
Yeah, these kids are a f**king disgrace. The long line of politicians was bad enough, but this….
This is one of those events that shows us ourselves, but not in the way it’s supposed to.
@mlk: Look on the bright side. No costumed mascot, not yet anyway…
Oy, is my man getting some gray hairs, that job just chews people up.
The Prompter was stolen by Palin who needed it for her blood libel speech.
It’s not going to stop so we best just deal with it.
Hosting the event at the university is proving to be a baaaad idea. They couldn’t find a church or Elk lodge?
@Bob Loblaw: You know what the ASU students did to Steve Kerr don’t you?
Isn’t the mascot doing the benediction?
@PaulW: blood libel must be protected speech then, no?
Let ’em cheer. I’m so fucking sick of our scripted politics. It’s all part of the same Halperin/Drudge/Limbaugh/Politco disease. Screw substance, how does it Play in Peoria?
the mass was yesterday but yes the cheering is a bit weird. right now the world thinks that AZ is wingnut central. i suppose if i were there i would do just about anything to prevent a Joe Wilson moment.
Let them cheer. This is a celebration of life, not a shaking of fists at the cruelty of life. Obama is giving a great speech.
And he is not making this about himself.
I like it. That’s how I would want my memorial service to be if something terrible happened to me.
I am this glad shooting did not happen around Halloween. I know several people who would be making Congresswoman Giffords costumes as we speak.
reposted from the last thread:
first time I’ve seen Obama in a while… I forget some times how trying the gig is, he looks so much older than he did just two years ago. So much grey/white in his hair.
added: the job ages everyone, and it does it quickly.
this is a beautiful service.
it’s like an baptist service or even an irish wake.
I’d punch people like that if I knew them personally.
I can’t believe how gray Obama’s gotten in just two years…
ETA: What are the odds that tomorrow’s meme is that Obama used a memorial service to serve as a rally?
Sarah Palin, if she had an ounce of decency, should be feeling real small right now.
Of course I bet she doesn’t have any
I read the speech since I am work. It is quite good and very moving.
@freelancer: They know how I feel about them. Some people are unavoidable though.
@DougJarvus Green-Ellis: I won’t be having a funeral; my will provides for a party for friends. However, it just wasn’t what I expected and it’s a little jarring.
When he said Gabby had opened her eyes, though–that was cheerworthy.
I think they are traumatized so the cheering and hollering is more like saying, we will not succumb to hate and murder will not define us.
I see Kyl but where’s Walnuts?
@Comrade Luke: They’re already whining and moaning. Something about Tshirts distributed before the event.
Happens to all of them. Clinton and Dubya went into office with solidly brown hair.
@freelancer: 1-1? That low?
that’s what I said on the last thread.
And if I see any more fucking quaking in our boots about “oh noes!! what are the republicans gonna DO to us now” over this event — especially after what the whore of Wasilla managed to pull off today — I’m going to be about ready to believe we really are a party of abject p*ssies who really do deserve to lose.
Yes, but only if they care about it. Shrub didn’t age a day until his approval ratings started getting bad.
@Anya: And, upon further review, I think you may be right.
@Comrade Luke: I said on the day of his inauguration that that would be the last time you see him not gray. Every president who isn’t gray when they take office immediately start to turn gray the next day.
Goddamn students. Nothing fucks up a perfectly good university like a bunch of fucking students.
I was the one who raised that issue first.
I’m not quaking in my boots about it.
I mostly just think the hooting is in poor taste, but I also have been paying attention enough to know that it’ll be used by the right — and the media will play along — to change the conversation.
He’s there ~ a couple of seats to the right of Kyl.
Methinks one of the members of the communications team internalized a love for the Talking Heads…
I would love a memorial like this. I already have instructions for my sisters/nieces that I want the wake, a good, old fashioned, drunken, story-filled Irish wake. No viewing, no religion. Just laughing and telling stories and music (lots of old school punk). Remember me with a smile and honor me by having a great fucking party.
If you might have any queasiness, I’d not suggest you look at the #tcot tag on Twitter. They aren’t even listening.
It’s settled, we all see it differently.
Obama just referenced life partners. The right wing is going to lose it.
Wow, I love the comments about making sure our debate is worthy of those we lost and to not be petty. Just pitch perfect.
see, I told you obama hates gays!
@WyldPirate: Students at a high school, or a graduate school, would probably not be as raucous.
At first the cheering annoyed me, but now on reflection, I think it is probably what these folks need. The event itself was so tragic, to say the least. As a Jew this reminds me what we do after someone dies– we eat and have a kind of party. Somber yet celebratory. Have a good night, all.
But of course Bush didn’t use 9-11 for political purposes, when he stood on top of the debris mound. Oh, no. That was pure of purpose and heart, like everything else about the d/b.
I think this speech is going to remind a lot of low-information types why they liked Obama in the first place (those that can get by the skin tint, that is). He comes across as a fundamentally decent guy, who’s in a job that hasn’t featured too many of them recently.
@Comrade Luke: Already happened.
Edit: Yes, lots of rage from Malkin that the volunteers were wearing blue T-Shirts and that NOBAMA has “branded” this (by having the audacity to say ‘Together we thrive’).
Name the last time they “had” it.
@freelancer: ED Kain is here as long as he wants, and why the hell would I ban matoko-chan? No one knows what the hell she is saying, anyway. I can’t decipher it to even figure out if it is offensive or not.
@TR: I agree.
The students are a disgrace. Also the religious clap-trap fucking jesus this and isaiah that. It’s a fucking clown-show. The indian was almost a parody. The only one so far doing a decent job was the fucking queer mexican.
stop it! Who fucking CARES?
Obama didn’t set this agenda. He’s a fucking GUEST.
This is a state with a large Native American population, is it not? Did I miss it when Christianism was OFFICIALLY declared the exclusive National Religion?
@askew: I smiled when he made that reference. I love this guy.
They just never quit.
@askew: The right wing “loses it” roughly once every three hours. I’m sure that no matter what Obama said, they’d find half a dozen reasons why it proved he hates America.
Uh oh. Obama said we should be nice to each other. THAT’S EXACTLY LIKE HE SAID THAT SARAH PALIN SHOULD BE CHARGED AS AN ACCESSORY BEFORE THE FACT AND HANGED!!ELEVEN!!!!!
@amorphous: Of course Our Lady of Perpetual, Petulant Outrage would be outraged.
We, as a nation, don’t deserve this president.
@eemom: What the fuck are you talking about.
@SteveinSC: Stay in south carolina moron, you are right at home.
@eemom: Um, yeah.
Who’s this for, and by, anyway?
The President would have made great evangelist (in the best sense of the word).
I know. Just being a crank by imitating one of my former colleagues who was always bitching about students. Your comment reminded me of him.
I understand your feelings. Some folks expect decorum at such things. But this event it is about a celebration of life, too. From that standpoint, I see no harm in it.
I know I am a hopeless Obot who doesn’t know what he is talking about, but these kinds of things, Obama has a way of reaching into the void and pulling out a sense of decency.
And in emotionally precise rhetoric. I’ve seen no other president do this so well, not even Clinton I feel your pain, lower lip biting emo. That is all.
They will try to change the conversation, like they always do. The question is, what does the Left have planned to prevent that again?
Because they don’t get to hijack the conversation unless we sit back and put up no effort to prevent that from occurring. And I don’t know about you, but I will most definitely be working my ass off to prevent that from happening.
Talking about Christina Taylor Green.
“I want our democracy to be as good as Christina imagined it.”
No one’s complaining that a Native American was asked to give the invocation. I’m complaining that a guy who was a rambling nut who seemed to be preening in the spotlight was asked to give the invocation.
She gave you an ultimatum:
Triple dog dare ya…
You Don't Say
Excellent speech. It was a speech that Palin could have given in defense of herself, but she chose not to. Thank you, Mr. President.
Trapped in SC
That speech was fucking awesome.
@John Cole:In a previous thread, she basically said this blog was not big enough for both her and E.D., and demanded that you punt him or ban her. This is why people are asking.
obama’s assertion that we should be nice to each other is clearly a blood libel against sarah palin.
Today’s fun thought: can you imagine the speech that President McCain would have given? Also, by now I suspect we’d have invaded Estonia.
@freelancer: He could, you know, not read ED’s posts or not visit BJ at all. Why demand suicide-by-bloghost?
well then, I’m sorry to say it, but you’re the Platonic form of a spineless, groveling, “kick me” sign on the ass Democrat — and thus a part of the reason we are losing to shameless whores like Sarah Palin and her ilk, who fucking glory in their brazenness.
The guy just never fails to impress me. He makes me proud of my vote every time he speaks. Pure class.
I’m just a lowly O-bot, but his entire speech was fantastic. Exactly what I needed to hear without even realizing it. #diehardbot
It’s more dramatic than a GBCW post of her own.
Methinks Tweety will be feeling that tingle tonight?
Anyone wanna place bets?
Oh boy. “Simple Gifts” gets me every time.
wow, pretty moving speech. well done Mr. President
Oooh, ad hominem, I can see how much more clever you are than I by the brilliance of your reasoning.
*sniff* dammit, obama…
Say it with me now: It DOES NOT MATTER what Obama does, the wingnuts will always rage at it, and because “both sides do it,” their story will gain traction.
The firebaggers are railing against Obama as we speak. I left the first comment in almost a year over there.
No, I’m an old friend of Gabby’s who doesn’t think cheering and hooting at a memorial for the victims of her assassination attempt is appropriate.
I saw Mark’s face during the invocation, and he was turning red with anger. As was I.
But thanks for the insults all the same. Next time a friend of mine is shot, I’ll be sure to ask you how I’m supposed to feel.
What a service.
What a service.
Now, I’m definitely voting for nader in ’12.
Conservatives wanted the logo to be “Kill The Divisive Job-Killing Blood-Libelling Liberals”.
@You Don’t Say:
No, she could not.
Because she would then no longer be Sarah Palin.
I shut down my computer when the networks picked up the speech. Was this the Presidents best speech. I yelled at the set to tell the audience to stop clapping and then I noticed that those clapping had tears in their eyes. I’m sobbing.
Go big or go home. We’d have invaded Iran, North Korea (if VP Palin could keep the friendly versus unfriendly apart), and maybe Pakistan. And, we’d have openly crossed into Mexico countless times.
Is Obama wearing a bullet proof vest? It looked like there was an outline of something when he was hugging people just now.
The secret service is definitely prominent tonight.
Out of the park, in my opinion.
@Richard Fox: When I was in college, one of my fraternity brothers was killed in a train accident Germany. The University held a memorial service for him, but a large number of us chose not to go. Instead, we sat on “tin beach” the section of roof used for tanning where he used hang out. We drank toasts to him, told stories, laughed, and cried. We actually received some criticism at the time, but, to us, it seemed like the proper memorial. I don’t know that I would do the same today; then, it seemed right.
Any guesses who will be the first to compare this to a Nuremberg Rally?
I’ll take Erick son of Erick.
I think he found just the right points to make.
It was a very good speech and a very good tone to set going forward.
I won’t know what to think until I hear if Tweety got a tingle up his leg or not.
You’re right, and I admitted as much above.
Well, Okay, pretty good speech. Makes you-know-who look pretty small and petty.
Yeah cutting out all those letters from a magazine and then pasting them one by one, fucking up the spelling, yeah it could take a year or more. Then mailing them, let’s see not to Santa Claus, not to the tooth fairy…
I suspect that you will watch the speech, and will change your mind about your update. It was as appropriate a speech as any I’ve heard.
Listen to it before you judge it.
“Massacre Rally Theatre is a complete abomination. Absolutely obscene,” Bruce tweeted Wednesday. “Clinton should be happy, no longer will ‘Wellstone’ be the benchmark.”
Why am I not surprised? They are letting their hatred blind them to reality. Obama’s speech was incredibly moving.
Well, that changes things. Thanks. I thought it was just some starstruck kids rooting on the president. But if this was cathartic for them, OK.
@BGK: Glad it wasn’t just me.
joe from Lowell
Hear hear! I hope my service includes applause.
Every single one of them will have a sad funeral, in church (or whatever), I’m sure. They’re celebrating the departed, and the survivors, and the heros, and there’s nothing wrong with that.
Do I even want to know what they hated about this? Was it that Obama didn’t use his time to press for a second repeal of DADT?
@Comrade Javamanphil: Agreed. I really appreciated the way ABC’s Terry Moran put it, in a tweet:
@Elisabeth: no, I meant that President McCain would have invaded Estonia in retaliation for this particular attack. We’d have long since moved into the obvious places.
Do you think there’s enough stuff from the Bible in the speech to satisfy the right wing? Oh, what am a talking about, of course it’s never enough. He can quote the entire Bible and they still won’t be satisfied.
The reaction I’m getting on Twitter from conservatives (Rich Lowry, Jonah Goldberg, etc.) is overwhelmingly positive. I think the speech was so damned strong it will wash away any complaints about the somewhat strange Native American prayer healer (or whatever he was), and the enthusiasm of the crowd.
@Omnes Omnibus: Tis a gift to be simple? A SHOT AT ST SARAH!!
@TR: more improper use of the bully pulpit, I’m sure… because you know, this should have been a purely political speech about, um, something
I’ll see your Erickson and raise you a Malkin.
I missed the speech. If anyone finds the full video online, please post it.
I’m sorry you feel that way. But Congresswoman Giffords, thankfully, is not dead, and this is not her funeral. Nor is she the only one who was shot.
Do the other local people at this ceremony have less right to define the tone of the event than you? Why? Because they are students? Because many of them are Native Americans?
No, but it’s equally as stupid.
From a comment at firebagger central:
“What happened is a tragedy and don’t mean to minimize what happened, but if Obama and these other politicians really wanted to address the problem he’d truly reform our health care system and seriously ban guns.”
You know what, I have absolutely no problem with the cheers and applause. The kids (likely 90 percent of the audience) are showing support, appreciation, and solidarity in the way they know best.
And you know what, I’m a non-believer but I have absolutely no problem with native American blessings and readings from scripture. When I’ve been invited to give eulogies or readings at funerals and memorial services, I’ve selected lines of poetry or literature that help express what I want to convey. I’m not going to get all over Holder or Napolitano for selecting passages that they felt were meaningful and appropriate.
And you know what else? I love Copland’s Fanfare for the CommonMan, and if I were hired as a music critic for this service I would have found plenty to criticize in the University Orchestra’s performance. But I wasn’t listening with a critic’s ears, I was listening and watching as someone who wanted to share in a healing, communal moment. I got that.
And Gabby opened her eyes tonight. That’s just fucking awesome.
I caught the last half (maybe even 2/3) of the speech. He rocked. He raised the level of the discussion.
I bet a million dollars that this is the right wing talking point of the day.
Davis X. Machina
@SteveinSC: He must have called for passage of the public option….
And the cavalcade of stupid begins…
I have a non-political site I use as a probably-skewed barometer of what the low-info cohort is thinking. They’re not so much conservative as “radical middle” conservatives-in-denial. Again, they don’t fail to disappoint:
Last one was posted about three minutes into the President’s speech, so he probably had that one in the hopper.
Christ, I’m going to have to stock up on gin.
And a good thing, too. I watched them on the msnbc feed, and some of those looked distinctly nervous during the grip’n’grin — can’t blame them for wishing the President would settle for being transported inside a nice big bulletproof-glass box…
@Ija: it was predetermined the minute he agreed to go.
@Ija: Obama has NEVER talked about god enough.
I agree. I’m not watching for that reason.
How appropriate because those two hate-mongers would have been right at home at a Nuremberg rally.
I think the cheering was cathartic — this is a close-knit place and the UMC has been at the center of everything since the event. My colleagues there have commented that the students (like the rest of the city) have been truly shell-shocked by this.
Thoughtful speech- beautifully delivered.
And for goodness’ sakes, guys, Obama could have just repeated Saint Sarah’s babbling word-for-word and the right wing would pan it.
I doubt it. As I said earlier, the speech was so damned good (with stuff for both Rs and Ds to like) that it will wash away any complaints about the enthusiasm of the crowd, or that somewhat nutty prayer healer guy. The applause will be rightfully seen as a way for the crowd to honor heroes and the fallen. And that will be the end of it.
via Jed Lewison
At first the applause bothered me, but then I thought…
Who am I to tell the people who live Tucson how they should remember their dead?
There a lot of wingnuts here in SC, you know. Just give em’ your ass to kiss.
how very gracious of you.
I just spoke with a friend who watched it on FOX. and everyone is praising the President including Krauthammer and Hume. They are tripping over each over about the speech. Erick, Glenn and Sarah are shedding tears tonight but not for the same reason.
Hey, you know what? Obama did something and the Right criticized him for it! Amazing! I predicted the future for every single day of the next two years.
This was not just any memorial service, it was one in the aftermath of not only the people killed and injured, but also an attack on the very symbols of democracy and government. So I approve of a measured sense of defiance with grief, and the students clapping are known to land a little heavy on the defiance side of things, at least when I was growing up. Obama did not do political in his speech. He did human.
@SiubhanDuinne: Point taken. I agree, but you do have to admit that the president of the college should never ever sign up for a poetry slam.
joe from Lowell
He did indeed, and I feel chastened about the bashing of teabagger/Republican rhetoric I’ve engaged in over the past few days.
Not the content of what I’ve said – I’m still right, it’s still wrong for them to use violent imagery and rhetoric in their politics.
But the tone. People, the president is right. We should be positive, and talk about unity. Instead of saying things like “Those people are wrong to use violent imagery,” we should say things like “We should be positive, we should elevate the tone of our discourse, we shouldn’t disparage and demonize each other.”
As the past few days demonstrate, there is absolutely no one in American who will fail to understand whose behavior such comments are directed towards, but discussing it this way is better. It heals instead of hurts (for most people, anyway, and the people who are hurt by a statement like that, screw ’em). It makes us look better, and when they start shrieking about it, they’re shrieking alone, not as part of a back-and-forth.
It’s the right thing to do; it’s a better, more effective way of making the point; and it’s going to drive them out of their freaking gourds.
You know who else stood and memorialized the dead while a raucous audience applauded and cheered madly?
It was an awesome, necessary speech. Can’t love the man enough.
Love your name; LOVED Firesign Theatre!
Yeah, a lot more gracious than you.
Thanks for calling me a racist who hates all things Native American because I thought the guy who led the invocation was a rambling attention whore. I don’t care if he was a Baptist or an atheist, that kind of look-at-me spotlight hogging was inappropriate.
Uh oh. Big faux pas in the speech. He left out a mention of the real victim–Sarah Palin.
@bk: He turned left into a brownstone building. . .
Ugh…just chiming in to wonder if anyone else was subjected to that awful ‘Repeal the Healthcare Bill Now!’ ad on MSNBC. I mean…christ…
This was the first time I cried since Saturday’s carnage. The President’s speech was magnificent.
@Texas Dem: The nuty prayer guy might prompt Arizona government to ban Native American Studies.
Gotcha ~ sometimes I’m slow. :)
Obama’s speech was pitch perfect: warm, heartfelt, embracing, uplifting, healing. I am so greatful that we have this man as our president. I wish we could live up to his vision for America.
Can you summarize it for me? I’m using my brand-new work-issued super-spiffing laptop, which I just got about 12 hours ago. Angus is already working on seasoning it with his sheddings, and I’d rather not have to put it in the dishwasher tonight if I mistakenly watched a Dubya video or something…
Yeah, that was … awkward.
@Ija: See above.
@General Stuck: Great comment. When I first started watching the service, the crowd bothered me. What I noticed though is Zimmerman’s parents and they seemed to appreciate it. When the feed that I was watching zoomed in on them at the end they were holding hands tightly. The service was for them and the other victims. The other thing that I noticed was that Gabby’s husband had trouble waiting for Michelle to hug to President before he could
Tomorrow the right will release their take but tonight is to honor the heroes.
My Facebook Wall is lighting up
Names omitted to protect the douchebags.
from my friends on the left;
and my response
Of course if Obama used the bully pulpit, these people wouldn’t be more concerned with Modern Family or saying he’s just doing a campaign rally.
There was a Federal judge and a congresswoman involved so it wasn’t strictly “civilian”. just sayin’
joe from Lowell
I don’t get John’s military/civilian distinction. At all. I’m not bothered by it, but I’m baffled.
If I get run over by a snow plow tomorrow, Barack Obama may address the audience at my memorial service. I’m totally cool with that.
It’s W with the bullhorn at Ground Zero. FDNY and responders cheering at the top of their lungs.
Obama tend to remind me of what I dream for the best in us as a country. I want to keep that in mind moving forward, live in the reality of the challenges to a civil discourse, but don’t lose the sense of … I don’t know… maybe what I have dreamed of for this democracy too.
I think Obama’s close probably saved him. O’s speech was so good that by tomorrow morning no one will remember the prayer healer, or even care.
OK, CSPAN has the full video now.
If they all carried guns and therefore couldn’t come within 1000 feet of one another … maybe that would fix Washington!
I thought Michelle looked very sad.
I’m sure that Sasha being the same age as Christina Taylor Green crossed her mind more than once.
@E.D. Kain: What’;s wrong with Washington? It’s a lovely city, and a lovely state. I’ve lived in both.
I figured. I was going to lob the Dubya-at-ground-zero thing out there in the forum in question, but the commenters are being willfully dense and I’d be wasting keystrokes. Also, the place is run something like a high school and I’d probably get suspended for “talking about politics.” Right.
@WyldPirate: It settled down, but if they had continued cheering, it would have worked against Obama’s intentions. They were clearly fans of Obama, but unaware of the impact they were making. I’m pretty sure I heard a young woman yell out “We love you” (meaning the president) at the beginning – and Obama was clearly not happy with the atmosphere. As someone else remarked, the cheering will be used by right-wing commentators as an argument for dismissing the speech.
Another thought about nutty Native American prayer guy: I’ve been told that Tucson is sort of like the Austin of Arizona, a liberal oasis in a sea of red. Maybe there needed to be at least one eccentric/radical college professor there to represent the University.
Tammy Bruce takes prize as Wingtard First Responder, tweeting that the memorial was obscene, and just like the Wellstone funeral.
Nice. Not sure how much company she’ll have on this rhetorical Titanic.
Tammy Bruce takes prize as Wingtard First Responder, tweeting that the memorial was obscene, and just like the Wellstone funeral.
Nice. Not sure how much company she’ll have on this rhetorical Titanic.
@BGK: You can read the prepared remarks at whitehouse.gov.
JC, I didn’t see this as a politician at a funeral; I saw it as our country’s leader, well, leading in a positive direction during a time of high, potentially explosive stress that’s affecting the entire country.
I do believe that the University asked the President to attend.
For those who are making hay about this speech as a rally and feel it may be inappropriate.
Ask yourself, is it any less or more appropriate than President George W. Bush grabbing a bullhorn and addressing a large group of cheering workers on the rubble of the World Trade Center?
Davis X. Machina
Bobby Kennedy, somewhere, is smiling.
I did NOT call you a racist, asshole.
This has always seemed a weird sort of partisanship considering the current administration isn’t particularly pacifist, but whatever.
I thought this was maybe Obama’s best speech ever. It’s up there with the race speech in Philadelphia. Though to be unemotionally detached about it, the death of a child is a useful and clarifying rhetorical device. Still though, he’s the best orator in modern US history by a country mile. Absolutely the spiritual successor to MLK.
Aaron Copeland. Twice. Total win no matter the quality.
Speech was very good. People were weeping, including me. Thank you UA, Prez Obama and the rest of the folks.
I am truly sorry for the grief and anger you are feeling.
All I can say is I hope you forgive the kids their transgressions.
Because, whether or not they should know better, they still do not see the world through our older eyes.
It’s so nice to see democrats on this left-leaning blog ramble about “the weird Injun feller, wut gave the prayer”.
I’m with ya. Injuns have no place in Arizona.
I caught most of it on the radio, and will have to watch it all later. It was definitely more vibrant and celebratory than funeral in tone. The cheering was a bit jarring for me, but that’s more of the wake tradition. I feel more like Cole about politicians and these things, but it’s that community’s memorial service, not mine, so they can do what they want. If it gave the family members of the slain any solace, I’m more than satisfied.
Lightn up, Francis.
@Cacti: yeah, he didn’t look like the Indians I used to see on F-Troop.
@Texas Dem: I have a very good friend with a transexual child. He said at Tuscon High he wasn’t even considered different.
Just for giggles, I took a look at RedState a few minutes ago. Front page story is a full-throated defense of St Sarah’s latest video message, and the only coverage of the memorial are a couple of one-liner posts in their Quick Hits or whatever section, with positive reactions to Obama’s speech.
Guess we’ll have to wait until tomorrow to learn why this was the Worst Thing Ever.
Jesus, mom. Try a little self-awareness on for size, you might find it edifying.
@Davis X. Machina:
wouldn’t you, I mean, he’s somewhere wining and dining marilyn monroe
There are going to be stories tomorrow about how inappropriate the clapping and cheering were, how the victims’ families were distressed by it, how Obama turned the memorial service into a campaign rally etc etc. It’s exhausting just thinking about it.
You implied I was upset with the man who gave the invocation because he treaded on my precious “Christianism”
And then you implied I didn’t think Native Americans had a right to define the tone of the event:
@joe from Lowell:
I agree. However, you can’t expect the POTUS to go to every funeral. For example, if Joe “You Lie” Wilson should strangle while engaged in a little auto-erotic strangulation, I wouldn’t expect Pres. Obama to go to that funeral. Anyway, no harm no foul, since I would be more than happy to stand in for the Prez and say a few parting words to speed Wilson’s ass on its way.
MSNBC.com is running a poll. Right now there are 24,774 votes, and it’s running 86.6-10.5 in Obama’s favor.
True, she didn’t compare it to Nuremburg (yet), but she was blogging during Obama’s speech, panning and ridiculing it as it went.
Living in Tucson, it’s been an odd few days. I had a meeting across from the shooting site on Monday, and it was very unsettling. As might be expected the news coverage here has been nonstop so it is hard to get away from tragedy.
I heard the first part of the Memorial driving home and felt uncomfortable with the applause. However, Tucson has been under such a cloud since Saturday that I think the need for a release just prompted the outbursts. As for Obama’s speech, it was powerful, and needed. As was mentioned above, even the folks at Fox had to give it up for him. Oddly, David Gergen on CNN seems to be the least impressed. It was completely nonpartisan, so he should have loved it.
Christina’s death is what has weighed so heavily on me. Obama’s references to her in his speech caused tears to come to my eyes. Even I, who don’t believe in heaven, was moved by the reference to Christina jumping in rain puddles in heaven.
As a graduate of both esteemed institutions, I can say with authority that you’re underestimating the Wildcats’ kegstand prowess.
Speech was amazing. Husband and I cried, and we were just listening to it on NPR.
John, you need to watch. It was magnificent and exactly what was needed.
joe from Lowell
Agreed. After Obama’s “More Perfect Union” speech (the Reverend Wright Speech), most conservatives lauded it, but one guy at the Corner wrote that theme was “Hate Whitey and Raise High the Red Banner of Socialism.”
Even the other Cornerites were like “Umwut?”
I’m not angry with them; they mean well I’m sure. And as someone else said, they apparently had tears in their eyes, which puts a totally different spin on it.
I thought it was college kids screaming because they were on TV and the president was there, but if it was a cathartic experience for them, then good for them.
Perhaps you could be more generous and consider that the guy probably has never had such a large stage before. It was a 13,000 people nationally televised event with the POTUS after all.
Given that there are always religious remarks at these things, I’m grateful that they reached out to a nonChristian.
@elf: In my not so humble opinion, a memorial can be a celebration of a person’s life and of life itself. It does not have to be somber and sad throughout. People handle grief in different ways, based on culture and personality. I am not going to criticize anyone for their choices. That isn’t true. People who feign grief and shed crocodile tears so that they can advance an agenda, those I will criticize.
@stuckinred: Did you notice Sandra Day’s reaction to Hernandaz’s speech? She feels the same way as me but at least she got to grab his arm several times.
He’s out saving the economy, of course.
joe from Lowell
@billgerat: There must be something wrong with my browser.
I went to Malkin’s site, and all I saw were the words “Pay attention to me!” scrolling across the screen over and over again.
@TR, @eemom: Both of you, please, let it go. You had a misunderstanding and went off on each other. I think you’ve both explained enough to get that if you hadn’t misunderstood each other’s intent, you wouldn’t have, so it’s not either one’s fault, and there’s no reason to rehash it endlessly.
Just let it go.
That’s fair, I suppose. I still think he had a little too much “look at me” in the prepared remarks, but I can’t even begin to imagine what I’d do if I were told I’d be giving the invocation before the president spoke.
And yes, I did like that they had someone outside the “Judeo-Christian tradition” which usually has a stranglehold on public events like these. And given the state’s demographics, a Native American speaker was the right choice.
That said, I wonder if we as a country would be mature enough to let an imam give the invocation if this had happened in Dearborn, Michigan.
@IronyAbounds: I’m with you on the parts of the speech about Christina Green. As a father of children of similar age her death has really weighed heavily on me as well. Obama’s speech made me cry. But it was good. I feel better now. It was a wonderful speech.
@Nick: Dude, you need better friends. Hanging out with people like that can’t be good for the soul.
Not from me, but as a corollary question: Any guesses as to who will be the first to compare Palin’s video to Obama’s speech and argue that Palin was better?
@TR: I suppose that would be up to the community in Dearborn
@Redshift: Apparently Obama’s plea for civil discourse went over a few people’s heads.
paganism! applause! healing! empathy!
All the things I love and the wingers hate. Well, they love the applause, but only for themselves.
I thought it was excellent, and I cried.
His speech was superb. It made me think that Palin should have shut up for one more day so that she did not expose herself as such a pygmy when standing next to our President, who is clearly anything BUT a pygmy.
Tom Junod has a really good piece up in Esquire. He’s right when he says that as a nation we’re addicted to partisan bickering and flame wars and war rhetoric because it allows us to avoid any level of introspection. There is never an event in this country, no matter how frightening (9/11) or depraved (the shooting, Abu Gharib, Columbine, etc.) that we don’t turn into a political issue, have the usual shouting match about and then move on from. This country needs to have some sense of moral accountability for itself and the damage it often brings on itself and others, but instead we use all of our energy on what Junod (and Jonathan Franzen in his last book) call the freedom to do absolutely nothing and make no hard choices.
I frankly don’t know — or care — what you are. I just find the attitude you’ve displayed this evening disappointing as a fellow Democrat, and condescending, judgmental, and presumptious as a fellow human, for the reasons I have already explained.
and I don’t know — or care — what that is supposed to mean, since there are no specifics attached.
If you think I’m inadequately “self-aware” because I find it kind of appalling that people have no compunction about dismissing a Native American religious invocation as “weird” or “strange” or “whatever he was,” then, in the words of our host, have at it.
@joe from Lowell:
Sounds like she and Tammy Bruce are having a stupid-off.
Anyone besides me old enough to remember Ozzie and Harriet?
David Nelson has died, age 74. RIP.
@geg6: I agree. Coming from a long Irish line on one side of my family I have seen both types of funeral and whooping it up gets my vote. To me, fun is more healing than a somber occasion and I would hope to leave some joyful memories for my kin to celebrate.
No, I think to do the “blood libel” thing correctly you’re supposed to make matzoh balls out of her boobs. Or something like that.
Are you people fucking nuts? It was an eulogy. I will not analyze it from a political point. It was meant to be a moment to bring the country together. No matter what, he was damned either way. Myself, it was an eulogy as if I attended the funerals of the fallen victims. I am an emotional person, love my country, have children, etc, I feel that way, as an American, a human being, not a democrat, republican or tea partier. Can we for once, see this as a truly sad event, worthy of our president’s remarks about it, or have we become as cynical as the opposition (and I hesitate to use the word.) ?
@Mike Kay: If Marilyn is with anyone, it’s going to be Joltin’ Joe. And I have a feeling the Kennedys would be smart to stay away from him.
Heh, point taken.
Sorry, it’s been a shitty five days and I’m running on fumes.
Why are righties complaining about the tee shirts. The t-shirts did not have any political message. What I can see is: Together we thrive, Tuscon & America. What’s so objectionable about that?
Fox News commentators (including the usually loathsome Charles Krauthammer) are practically falling over themselves giving genuine high praise to the President’s speech tonight. Of course, they liked the tack they perceived Obama took of asking people to move past blame for the tragedy, but it was more than just that. Something else that sank into them tonight from his acknowledged successful presentation is that he’s going to be a much more formidable President and candidate for reelection than they thought only a few short weeks ago in November, though they didn’t state that in so many words beyond Krauthammer noting that the President’s popularity has been recently rebounding.
I have no doubt that within two or three weeks, the discourse will slide back downhill at Fox to where it was three or four weeks ago, and much sooner than that on e.g. Hannity and Beck’s respective shows.
Nevertheless, for one night, Obama won their genuine respect. Maybe for just one night, but tonight he did, FWIW.
It couldn’t hurt.
It occurs to me that if the Right wants to invoke Paul Wellstone’s funeral as some kind of nefarious event (again) and use it as a rallying cry (again), then this is the opportune time for the Left to engage in a little revisionist history.
I’ll get the ball rolling with a little Media Matters and Senator Al Franken:
joe from Lowell
I think you might be misreading the rhetorical style of Indian religious ceremony invocations as attention seeking, rather than as an attempt to sweep up and transport the audience using theatrical speech and mannerisms. In a sense, the body language, tone, and gestures of the religious leader are meant to play the same role as the architecture in a cathedral – to promote in the audience a sense of being in the presence of something beyond.
Liberals are robbing them of their right to hate liberals.
Together is a code-word for communism.
Take your pick.
Thank you. Thank you, thank you.
In future, I think I’ll just shut up and wait for the right “This.”
You should have watched. It was completely appropriate and exactly what was needed. Once again, our President hits it out of the ballpark.
If you haven’t taken part in a ceremony that calls the corners, invokes the energy of earth and sky, you might think all kinds of things about it that have nothing to do with what is intended.
if it doesn’t touch you, it doesn’t, but understand that the concepts have meaning for others.
There was only one joker in Greater LA sensitive enough to wear that scent, and I had to find out who he was …
@joe from Lowell:
Not to belabor this minor point, but for the record I thought — for whatever little that matters — all of that was inspirational (though the masculine/feminine section was a little odd to my ears), but the part about his personal story, his personal heritage, where he was from … it just seemed off. But I guess others didn’t take it that way.
@TR: I know how you feel. Everyone’s emotions are a bit raw.
joe from Lowell
Those *%&$ing kids better not applaud when Obama gives the address at the funeral.
Davis X. Machina
@cmorenc: He could have called them out, with right and the facts and recent events on his side, to back him up, and he didn’t.
The relief was palpable. He’s classier than they deserve.
I’m surprised the “male and female energies” haven’t just gotten on with it and made a baby energy already. I mean, what are they waiting for?
Also, even after seeing it, I still can’t believe the Attorney General and DHS secretary showed up just to exclusively quote Christian scripture and then leave. That was just stellar work from our top law enforcement officials…
Obama was a President tonight, and of an unusually high quality, one aiming for spiritual leadership and getting it done.
Boehner was at a cocktail party, either fundraising or essentially buying favors (or both).
My heart is with Obama, and my money’s on him too. We might just get out of this mess.
I regret I did not see this until now, so I could not say “THIS” until now.
Um, a little ethnocentric, folks?
I think I like you now. No, I know I like you now.
take your pick from the Kaplan opinion page.
@joe from Lowell: I believe you said Obama “may” give the address at yours. Was that you giving permission or are you negotiating the schedule?
@joe from Lowell: LOL
I didn’t think the Native American guy was nutty or preening.
And I think Obama needed to be at this service. It was an attack on a federal officeholder, and a federal judge was murdered. He’s the head of the government and the head of state. Of course he should be there!
Nothing like having a real adult show up to make the kids stop bickering. He manages to do this without coming across like a scold — a rare, rare gift.
And I give the Fox morons about 20 minutes before they slide back downhill — as soon as “dad” leaves the room.
John Cole…jPL>>>says listen to the speech and watch the audience. My gosh you are sounding like grinch more and more each day.
Please post clips that support this. I thought his entire speech was incredibly ‘others’ centered. When did he make it about himself?
@joe from Lowell:
Yeah, a lot of folks are kinda startled at the style and energy of African American church services, even now, after all the exposure, and with pretty much the same religion and sect that most Americans share….
You Don't Say
I wish everyone on the TV would let go of the cheering, etc. It happened, it was no one’s fault, it was a room full of kids, get over it.
holy crap, john, what sour worm got into your schnozz today??
let me say, first, that you are simply DEAD WRONG on the appropriateness of the president’s presence there tonight. a congresswoman was nearly killed and a federal judge WAS killed. that alone requires his presence.
moreover, as the leader of the country, it is his DUTY to set the tone and bring people together. it is his RESPONSIBILITY to set us to healing. it is his ROLE to lead us out of this insanity.
gotta say, truly luv ur blog and all, and really got a kick outa knockin’ ol sully last week, but sheez dude, he had it ALL OVER YOU in attitude – and therefore, coverage – tonight.
he was not snarky. he was not cynical. he was not snively. he was not pouty. he was not snarky.
he was human. he said little. he admitted he cried when obama revealed that gabby has opened her eyes.
and he vowed to take obama’s words as inspiration and strive to debate with more “civility…empathy…and love.”
maybe too sentimental and mushy for you, but sheez, after this gawdawful few days, i needed it.
@gbear: @gbear: argh. I can’t go back and edit. Apologies. I misread your comment.
@Anya: It’s the unity thing. Real Americans read Ayn Rand and although they might thrive, they do it alone.
joe from Lowell
Conservative messaging this week:
“Calls for civility and an end to violent rhetoric are an attack on us, and we reject them.”
“A message of unity is a partisan, Democratic message.”
Good luck with that, fellas.
If we, as Democrats, keep shouting at Republicans for their violent rhetoric, then this will be a fight between two sides of shouters.
If we echo Obama’s positive message that Americans need to raise the tone of our political discourse, then this will be the Democrats (embodied by Obama giving that speech) being unifying and magnanimous, while the Republicans act self-pitying and belligerent – and it will still be absolutely, perfectly clear who the people that need to tone down the violent rhetoric are, but they won’t be able to call foul.
Thanks man….as a native american…I was thinking..damn this is supposed to be my crew here..LOL…..(relurking now)
Um, no. I thought the guy who gave the invocation was rambling and self-centered because he talked about himself at considerable length.
And then I was told I shouldn’t have said Native Americans are unimportant and meaningless and their culture is stupid and only Christianism deserves an honored place in society and on and on.
Sorry, but it’s not racist to say Michael Steele is an idiot and it’s not misogyny to say Sarah Palin is vindictive and it’s not ethnocentrism to say the guy who talked at length about himself talked at length about himself.
This was a ceremony in poetry, not in prose. I am not a Christian, and I enjoyed the deep poetry of the Bible passages. This was a memorial, it wasn’t a class lecture.
When a member of Congress and a Federal judge are shot, I kinda expect to see the President, actually.
Having the religious opening to a Nationally televised event like this being someone calling the directions and making a circle was exciting for all who respect or follow Earth-based religions. It happens in the SouthWest, but not usually for such a significant public event.
Really hope John Cole watches the speech (MSNBC video: http://goo.gl/hGqaV). Really hope everyone, everywhere, watches the speech.
Saw a tweet from a solider in Afghanistan saying how proud the speech made him to be serving under this Commander-in-Chief. Made me cry again.
@Mr Stagger Lee:
didn’t you hear? the orange boehner did not accept obama’s invite! he had better things (i.e., a fundraiser) to do.
yeah, and the rightwingnuts complain about the crowd cheering and the t-shirts, and their glorious leader can’t manage to even SHOW UP!
Well, for my part, I’m sorry if I made you feel that way. I’ve caught fire here for being a Catholic, and I know that can be brutal to feel like your identity is being attacked by folks who should be on your own side.
But again, I just thought he was rambling and self-centered. As I said above, he could’ve been an atheist or a Baptist and I would’ve felt the same. And I resent the implication (by others) that my comments about him were based on who he is and not what he did.
@SiubhanDuinne: This, all of it.
i was really complaining at the beginning of the memorial about the pep rally atmosphere. my wife just kept saying it was the college students at the memorial but i really didn’t understand why people couldn’t figure out what the tone should be. i was a dumb ass college student, but for god’s sake this was a memorial and it was like a campaign rally. i thought the native american blessing in the beginning could have been better executed but he seemed a bit taken back from the cheering and in all honesty, i’m not sure i would know how to respond to all the cheering. the pres of the university on the other hand should have known better and tried to slow it down or tone down the crowd. idk. maybe he was just a awestruck too. crazy thing to happen with the shooting and then the whole country is looking at you and your university for some kind of semblance of coherent thought. he and the the student body pres were overwhelmed a bit i think. understandable. on the other hand, the intern that saved the congresswoman’s life was beyond what i expected. to have the calmness to know how to save her life and then to give the speech that he gave was impressive. he’s 20 years old and he was the first one to a) visibly show to the tv audience that he knows the gravity of what happened and b) could speak from the heart and not some kind of rehearsed speech (i don’t fault the native american prof, the pres, or the student body pres… i would be nervous too to give a speech with the whole nation watching). he was awesome. jan brewer came on and i was at least thankful that she didn’t say something stupid. but out of all the people at this point, daniel hernandez was beyond awesome, his speech and the way it was delivered was inspirational. then napalitano, then holder…my complaint is that if you are going to do scripture readings…why not people related to or close to the victims? why those two?
then obama came on. i am a fan of his, respectfully disagree with some of his policies, support him as president and will defend most of his policies, and have to say that this speech was about as good as i’ve heard from him. maybe presidents should be at memorials like this. idk. i dont know the protocol, but the country needed to hear from him i think. the way he tied the hopes and visions from the young girl that died to what i think we all want for country was very poignant. we lost a young girl recently so maybe i have that going with me, but fuck i lost it a few times. i remembered why i voted for him tonight.
I cannot stop laughing at this. So fucking hilariously perfect.
It’s funny watching all the pissing and moaning from folks here bitching about all the “improper” conditions, hurt fee-fees over perceived charges of racism, worry about wingers “using” obama’s speech and the crowd against him.
Here I was, a big-time Obama critic, thinking how the Prez really pulled off a great speech appealing to our “better angels” within us. I sat here and actually shed tears during his speech and I’m a big-time hard ass about that sort of stuff.
gotta love Dems. get in the circle after kinda-sorta group hugging and then it’s ready…aim…fire, baby. LOL.
Damn, Tweety just went OFF on Sarah Palin. Seemed like Lawrence O’Donnell was shocked at first and then amused. I know I enjoyed it greatly.
@eemom: Someone seems to need to drink a glass of wine so that they can lower their bitch-o-meter.
But you have to admit they were mercifully brief about it. I thought it was hilarious that Napolitano got a much bigger, better reception than Brewer.
If I never, ever hear the word “optics” again, it will be too soon.
Like someone said above..that is generally the way those guys are. Its a lil odd, a little theatric, but strangely appropriate when delivered outside or in small group. In a gym…not so much. Let me also add my condolences to you and your friends who have been through so much this week.
@WyldPirate: Heh. All this needs is a wry grin.
Wow! Froggy native boys in leather aprons!
joe from Lowell
Jan Brewer was pretty good, too. Expansive. Unifying. Appropriate.
Honestly, she exceeded expectations.
Thanks, Chris. Much appreciated.
I wonder if Boehner had a noteworthy evening? Loser.
you such an obot.
Angry Black Lady
@freelancer: that’s what i thought. he looks old.
i went to see cirque du soleil with my parents in that auditorium a few years ago.
i just talked to my mom. she and her friends are very somber. she was fine a couple days ago, but it’s hit her harder than she initially anticipated.
there’s something really wrong with this country. palin playing the victim, congresspeople armed to the teeth, that guy who resigned because he feared for his family.
@joe from Lowell:
Stunned by her as well.
But Obama. Wow. No words.
when a congressperson is shot and a number of people are killed in the process, i expect to see the speaker there. of course, that didn’t happen.
I find myself in complete agreement with David Frum tonight. Yes, I know, it surprises me too.
He said that Ms. Palin had an opportunity this morning to “dress for the job she wants” but she failed. She was not healing, she was not unifying, and most importantly of all she was not Presidential. She was just Petty Palin.
Dude, It’s hard opening for Hendrix.
Holy crap, that was a good speech.
You’re lucky I spit out that piece of ice, because if I’d inhaled it, I would certainly have held you personally responsible.
Corn was even better. Even Frum was really trying to be gracious.
She’s toast. It’s a pity, as I wanted her to get the nomination so Obama could win 42 states. Shit.
Frum started making sense a year ago.
I know. I’m scared too.
Villago Delenda Est
American exceptionalism. It’s what’s for dinner!
this has to be the worst speech evah.
I told you guys that obama sucked.
Thanks for the great advice, Mr. President, but… Fuck You. We’re gonna blame Sarah Palin. We have a job to do.
Love and Kisses,
The New York Times, AP, Reuters, MSNBC, Ball-Juicers, etc.
I thought he was a little odd too. And I find this tedious argument about it in a thread about healing to be very out of place. Chill pills all around, folks.
kiss my ass, Church Twat.
kiss my ass, Church Twat.
hmmm……Iz must be doing it wrong.
@Bender: Nice start, Bender.
Boehner skipping out to attend a fundraiser is so fundamentally stupid that it makes Sarah’s performance this week almost look good.
Was Walnuts in attendance? I didn’t watch the whole thing, so I’m honestly wondering.
Good God. If David Nelson was 74 then…. Oh, gee, how freaking old AM I?
This is the danger of live-blogging a speech like this. If I’d shut the laptop and just watched it as a whole, I wouldn’t have remembered any of that, much less cared to comment.
@JenJen #276: Thank you.
If nobody else has already pointed this out: the deaths were a result of an attack on a US Congresswoman, and a Federal Judge and a congressional aide died in the attack.
Basically these people died during an attack on the federal government. Seems perfectly appropriate for the POTUS to speak at it.
@Chris: I was excited when I heard him say he was going to do the Blessing Way, as I have only read about that in books.
From the way the students cheered, I assumed the fellow was a beloved figure on campus, with a lot of status. The delivery felt a little awkward to me, it seemed like maybe he felt awkward, but a huge auditorium is probably not the kind of setting that is usually done in.
The choice provided a window into the world of arizona, which I think of as being conservative, and religious in a more traditional way, so it was kind of an eye-opener for me.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@Bender: You managed to copy a quote and then totally miss its meaning in the rest of your post. That takes some real talent.
Villago Delenda Est
Bender, thank you for exceeding expectations.
You and Sarah deserve each other as you go down in flames.
Which is unfortunate. I had hoped Sarah would be around to get her ass royally booted all over the place in 2012. Oh well.
Davis X. Machina
2361535″>Angry Black Lady: The wisdom of having the Head of State and the head of the government of the day be two different people is sometimes more apparent than others.
This is one of those times.
Yeah, but wasn’t Frum laying on kind of weepy/thick by saying Gidget had cause to feel wronged? I mean, really?
They were blue! BLUE, don’t you see!?
@eemom: Perhaps you’ve been lucky enough to go through life without some nutjob blowing away your friends, but take it from personal experience, you sound like an asshole. Perhaps in a year or two that kind of conversation would be within acceptable emotional bounds, but it’s not even been a week.
Never go full Palin.
@joe from Lowell: Thank you! I was getting tired of the NA bashing around here. No, he’s not going to get up there and read from Revelations, okay? It is common practice to introduce oneself, one’s heritage and one’s qualifications to speak of spiritual matters. So it’s not in your regular Christian tradition, it’s still as valid a belief system, so get over it and yourself.
Obama’s speech was brilliant. I used half a box of tissues when he was talking about our duty to the ideals of that little girl. And he did what I thought was almost impossible in this day and age: he raised the level of discourse with grace, emotion and conviction.
And lay off the kids! This was as much a defiant gathering as anything. To me their shouting said, “You will not frighten us into silence! We are here and we celebrate those who have fallen and those who are still fighting!”
@TR: I’m glad that’s what I did. The service was frustrating to me and then I focused on the audience and friends and family members of the victims. I’m sure there are some who will criticize it tomorrow but fuckem… The President gave a great speech and those who are suffering appreciated it. That’s what matters.
I’m gonna have to go with a simple go fuck yourself, because I have no idea what you’re talking about.
You know, I can deal with flames, but this cryptic shit is really too much to ask at this hour of the night.
Frum has to keep some distance from the other Palin critics in order to maintain credibility as a thoughtful and serious conservative (there are a few left, but not many), but he was clearly trashing her, although in a more subtle “but Brutus says he was ambitious, and Brutus is an honorable man” sort of way…
Half the things you write make me think, Ok I really have to figure out the pie filter. Then you write something like this and I get the warm fuzzys. Make up your mind! :)
@Bender: This is not the place for that. People died, and others are terribly injured, and we all just attended a memorial service, even if it was on TV or the radio or on-line. Act like a human being and just stop this crap for tonight, please.
joe from Lowell
Hey, Bender: take a look at what’s on the top of the rec list at DKos.
Tiny, itty-bitty, petty people like you and Palin – you just stopped counting.
@Nick: Dude, hate to say it , but you have terrible friends. Get new friends posthaste!
I’m in Tucson, and I thought the speech was wonderful and definitely what was needed.
People camped out over night to come to this. The lines today were ridiculously huge. A local mall had shuttles to campus for this. So–not just students (and from what I saw of the lines, it was a mix of people: old, young, and everyone in between). I think the clapping and cheering was more for catharsis than anything else; honestly, I think the people of Tucson needed things to remind them of our community — including a UA professor of Pasqua Yaqui and Mexican descent, out of the Barrio :) Yeah, people are a little quirky down here. But I’ve never seen people so unbelievably, universally thrilled that the President was coming. I got stuck in traffic for his motorcade– and everyone got excited that that meant that we might catch a glimpse of his motorcade.
That really doesn’t happen; we hate traffic :)) In the past few years, when people have gotten together like this–it’s complaining and accusing and vitriol. Not today. And I have to say, it was a welcome change. But who knows. I was predisposed to like tonight no matter what.
I’m thrilled that Gabby opened her eyes. Incredible.
And, frankly, I’m appalled that McCain turned away from the President when the President was shaking hands (anyone else watching CSPAN and saw that?)
Shorter Obama: If they bring a gun to a political debate, put a flower in the barrel.
If the Prez starts snarking gently on some Republican dumbassery when appropriate–and hardly a day goes by when they don’t present multiple, and yes I’ll go there, targets— I might just turn into one, Mike Kay.
Out of the fog, into the smog…
Yeah, but his heart wasn’t in it.
Given what we’ve all heard tonight, there’s nothing cryptic about “you sound like an asshole”, and worse than that, you’re like a runaway bile sprinkler at this point. Consider thinking about that for just a moment or two.
@Chris: I love Native American ceremonies, but the person who was doing this blessing, did not give it justice.
@SiubhanDuinne: Yes. I remember the show and Rick’s singing career.
joe from Lowell
That’s brilliant. I wish I could draw.
First panel: Sarah Palin holding a rifle, snarling, with a speech bubble that says, “Don’t retreat. Reload.”
Second panel: Sarah Palin, holding her rifle, looking shocked. There’s a flower in the barrel, and Barack Obama is walking away, humming.
@eemom: Maybe you can let it go for tonight. The guy’s good friend has been shot, and nearly killed, and who knows what her life will be like now.
Even I have been praying for a miracle because it seems she is truly a beautiful person with a special light that shines through to the people she is around. I have never met her, but i did know a person like that, whose inner light shined brighter than most, and we lost her very suddenly to a tragic accident just 3 days before 9/11, and it was devastating.
So maybe you could put empathy above all else tonight and just be gracious and let this go?
@joe from Lowell:
@joe from Lowell: Obama is such a hippie.
@joe from Lowell:
It seemed to me he said something like, “in the Native American tradition, I start by telling you who I am.” My impression is that one has to provide his bona fides to give such a presentation. In other words, if he were the shaman for his own group, he wouldn’t need to say, “This is who I am,” but among strangers, the standard is to do so.
Just my impression, but it seemed he was doing that.
Good point. I watched it on CNN….bad choice since I was subjected to the inane blatherings of David Gergen. Dreadful having to choose between him, Tweety and Krauthammer. It’s like that story about the genie who gave his finder the choice of his manner of death.
I like matoko, but I still have to LOLOLOLOLOL at this.
I chalk it up to nerves–the delivery. He’s probably an obot! I’d be a wreck.
Thanks to you, and to others here for the kind thoughts. Gabby really is too good to be true. This piece in the WaPo managed to capture her well, I thought.
When I found out she was running for Congress, I was thrilled, because she’s exactly the kind of person we need there — smart, empathetic, hard-working. And when the tea party hate started swirling around her last fall, I was horrified, pretty much waiting for something like Saturday to happen.
But she’s a fighter, and she’s going to be back. I wish the same were true for the ones who lost their lives — that little girl’s story absolutely crushes me — but maybe this will wake the nation up. We’ll see.
Villago Delenda Est
Thanks for an on the scene, face in the crowd report.
If John McCain actually did that, and it was not just a bad camera angle…well, I have no words, really.
He’s moving into Bender territory like a guy piloting a Navy jet about to auger in.
@Calliope Jane: Really glad to hear your take on tonight.
I have tivo so i went back just now to check, and you are so right! It looked very deliberate. Just when you think these guys can’t sink any lower…
Nellcote, sometimes one checks out the mirror and realizes that maybe life might be a little better if one didn’t look on the dark side of things and find fucked up ways too take it out on others. I’ve got a little of that going on now. It probably comes out here way more than it should.
We’re all works in progress and can usually strive to find our own better angels. The slope on the search is steep sometimes, though. I’m sure I’ll backslide on the journey. Probably often.
If that’s the case, then my bad. If a priest had done that, we’d have hustled him off the stage. But if that’s part of the tradition, it makes sense.
Sorry for my misunderstanding — and for belaboring this distraction one more time.
Water under the bridge now, right? Tomorrow will hopefully be a better day for all of us. Peace.
Joyful noises at memorial services… HEAVEN FORBID.
Lawl, white people need to get out more.
@joe from Lowell:
You’re missing two panels in the middle. One where she’s holding the rifle in one hand and on her Blackberry in the other to someone we don’t see yet; and then another where her dad shows up to change mags and cycles the weapon to chamber a round for her.
It’s all part of some kinda reconquista plot!
Villago Delenda Est
I’m sure there are some outtakes from her “reality” TV series that could be used to provide a model for that panel…
and then another where her dad shows up to
change mags and cycles the weapon to chamber a round for herturn the gun around because Sarah had the barrel pointing at her face.
@Villago Delenda Est:
Maybe McCain is pissed he is not allowed to speak and make it all about him. I mean, they let the Attorney General and DHS Secretary speak, but not the senators? Sacrilege!
Villago Delenda Est
Actually, SOME white people are nothing but the sads.
My brother’s memorial service, the formal part, was suitably somber.
But the reception at my parents’ house was quite different in tone. It was a celebration of his all too short life. Everyone told their favorite Bob story. There were many. The kid was not a clown, but had something of a knack for snark before the golden age of ‘net snark.
I just got done listening to the speech, and allow me to join the chorus of those who felt it was wonderful. It reminded me of why I was excited when I voted for President Obama, and why, despite some of his actions and policy positions that I’ve disagreed with, I’ll proudly do it again in 2012.
President Obama may be an occasionally frustrating head of government, but he’s one hell of a head of state. And at times like this, that makes all the difference.
I’m sure this has been mentioned upthread, and I am trying hard not to notice the usual wingnut nonsense over this event. But wtf! is it with the free t shirt business.
I mean “Together we Thrive: Tuscon and America” am I missing something how this is even remotely political, let alone partisan. Maybe it was the “Free” part that set them off? Or the T word “Together” that has their panties in a bunch.
Scratches own head.
@TR: great article! kitty in lap, hard to type.
Re-election by a landslide. Expect a few big GOP names to decide they’re keeping their powder dry for 2116. They got nothing that can stop this.
Does this mean he punches himself?
It appears to me that everyone is getting this wrong. I think the reason Palin went ballistic is that she’s a big part of the story where she doesn’t control the narrative. My evil alter-ego Skippy says that Palin’s pissed is because she wasn’t the one assassinated so that The Tribulation can begin.
I haven’t said one goddamn word tonight that wasn’t an appropriate response to what someone else said.
I’ll repeat: (1) the Congresswoman — thankfully — did not die, and this was not her funeral; (2) the fact that this person was a friend of hers does not give him/her the right to dictate how everyone else in Tucson deals with this event; (3) the attitudes displayed toward Native Americans here tonight were disgusting and deplorable; and (4) I don’t want to be in a party with anybody whose first reaction to anything is “Oh my goodness! WHAT will the republicans say??”
So fuck the two of you and your pious-ass preaching, also too.
@eemom: No, you’re inadequately self-aware for (among other reasons) completely failing to comprehend why this:
–is a statement that implies the person you’re addressing is bigoted against Native Americans.
Once again–as you’ve done to me, John, and plenty of other people here–you’re mindreading, making shit up out of whole cloth, and fabricating accusations of bigotry of one flavor or another. And when multiple people point out that you’re putting words in other people’s mouths and being a raving bitch about it in the process, you double down rather than acknowledge your mistake.
Except this time you really, really jumped the shark. And what’s really pathetic is that you demonstrably lack the self-awareness or empathy to realize just how badly you did.
Villago Delenda Est
That’s obviously code for the dreaded “S” word, don’tcha know.
Rugged individualism, totally unsupported by government action or subsidy!
Ooops…there goes the entire white settlement of the West…
@General Stuck: Who knows.. Sometimes they just search for reason to act contrary.
@Anya: Well, he said he wasn’t used to doing them in such a large venue.
Frum, though a warmonger and sometimes nutty, has his shoulder to the wheel trying to keep his party from going off of the cliff (don’t thank me for the mixed metaphor. it was hard work but for you guys, only the best). We should applaud his efforts and the efforts of his opponent Larison. They are as close to an intellectual conscience of the GOP as we are going to get.
you three, asshole.
I have never seen you contribute anything constructive to the dialogue here. Ever.
A caricature of you screaming at full sprint with your hair on fire would be subtle. People are on edge, they can be sensitive to things others aren’t, and voicing a disapproval of something they find tacky, is met with something akin to “FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU, FREEDOM! Fuck you you fucking fuck and everyone who looks like your ugly kids FUCKing dictatorial assfuck fucker, go fuck yourself!”
Pace your rage, If it were me, I’d take a breath before just opening my maw and ejecting a frothing, contagious poison out into the ether. That’s all I’m saying.
question for the group:
when did it become gospel that people move when state income taxes get raised? I ask because this article about Illinois raises their tax rates seems to have a bit of push back to that idea, basically, that it’s an outdated way of thinking about things and that tax rates are not the only thing driving decisions.
I find it interesting because I’m sure we’re going to be hearing this kind of stuff here in California. My dad has already been talking about how “everyone who can is leaving the state” (even though our population continues to grow) because Jerry Brown is going to raise taxes. I also wonder about all those people who moved to Texas and Florida and wherever else, if they were moving to those places because they wanted to or because the company they were working for said “we’re relocating your department to Dallas, you can either move to Dallas or find a new job.”
@joe from Lowell:
And now that memories have faded a bit, any conservative will explain how the whole issue proved Obama hated whitey and wants to raise high the red banner of socialism. The propaganda, by repetition within a closed media system, will become the official history for the righties.
@Omnes Omnibus: Sounds right to me. There were many kids in that stadium, and clearly they needed to deal with the memorial in this fashion. Probably not what I would have done, but hey to each his own. I did find the President quite eloquent and pitch perfect. So nice after the nonsense today with that futile Alaska woman.
@mr. whipple: quit hitting yourself Obama, quit hitting yourself Obama, quit hitting yourself, quit hitting yourself…
Sure, but there’s a hell of a distance between “not particularly pacifist” and “itching to invade countries for no justifiable reason.”
I was really disappointed they invited obama to speak at the memorial instead of Alan Grayson. I mean, it’s a no brainer.
nope. That’s not what I said. That is, like, a loooooog way from anything I have ever said.
Read. the. Record.
The fact that your and your reading-challenged fellows are incapable of comprehending the substance of a comment, just because it is phrased in strong terms, is not my problem.
Reading is FUNdamental. Learn to do it.
Villago Delenda Est
You know, it’s mostly talk.
Some people with more money than they need in Oregon made similar noises after some tax increases on high income folks passed last year, but so far, no followup reports of an exodus have been made.
Ironically, people with greater liquidity can actually just pick up and move much easier than people who have to worry selling their home, dislocating their kids, finding a new job, etc.
Which is why no one lives in NYC.
This coming from someone who goes from zero to superbitch in less than three sentences anytime your fevered imagination manages to extract offense from other people’s words where none existed.
I don’t think I’ll be losing any sleep over your shrewd judge of character.
Villago Delenda Est
You know, today’s little speech may have been Sarah Palin’s Linda Tripp moment.
You remember, when she gave that teary speech in which she said “I’m just like you” and people began to retch?
Villago Delenda Est
Oh, puhleeze! Reverend Wright should have given the invocation, and William Ayers should have introduced him!
Nice omission of what I said. The lead in to the F-Bomb tirade was
But you’re right, I’m completely misrepresenting your tone and vitriol and I’m just lighting strawmen on fire left and right. I’m being unfair, you’re not a kneejerk asshole, you just feel strongly about important things.
@jetan: right, I pointed out to my dad that California still has the largest population, and a lot of big states have high taxes… and that Texas is facing a major budget problem even though they have low taxes and small government. But I don’t know if they point got through, because despite his proclamations of being fairly independent, I can’t think of a Democrat he’s ever said a good thing about (he’s usually in the “yeah, the Republican is bad, but the Democrat is worse” school of thought).
@Villago Delenda Est: that’s pretty much what I thought. I just kind of wonder how many people actually make the decision based on taxes, I would think that taxes would rank lower on the decision tree, behind things like “my family is here” “my friends are here” “climate/weather” and just liking the place you are.
@TR and anyone else in Arizona
I’m sorry for what you’re going through.
Also, TR? You’re ignoring eemom magnificently, I admire your ability to do so.
girlfriend! U bad! What high school U go to?
@Villago Delenda Est: We can hope.
It’s long since time this woman started getting shunned by civilized society.
I forgot who said it upthread, but I didn’t find the scripture readings at all inappropriate.
Judge Roll was a devout Catholic who stopped by Rep. Giffords’s event after mass.
The liturgy includes one reading from the Old Testament/Hebrew Bible and one from the epistles.
Napolitano and Holder were his colleagues, as Arizona governor and attorney general, repectively.
Make of that what you will.
@eemom: Bless your heart, could you translate that into English? I don’t speak matoko_chan.
@eemom: My, Oscar, you are in a bad humor!
I had an Uncle who was exactly that way.
Part of the reason taxes in Illinois and New York run higher is because they have made magnificent investments in infrastructure, education and culture. Being a train ride away from a major museum or a world class university does not come cheap. Tax rates are not the only driver of investment activity.
i, for one, had no problem with the cheering. catharsis comes in many forms.
i, for one, had no problem with the cheering. catharsis comes in many forms.
It’s very much the black church sort of memorial.
That's Master of Accountancy to You, Pal
Count me on the side of approving of a celebration. When I die, I plan to be cremated. I will be sorely disappointed if no one manages to do something really stupid with the ashes before my wake is over.
I enjoyed the memorial service, and I think President Obama struck the right tone.
Thank you, dignitaries.
Thank you, Mr. President.
I’m sure it’s been mentioned before, but the victims of 9/11 were for the most part civilians. Something happened to us as a country, and not only was it appropriate for the President to speak at the public memorial service, it was imperative. Just as it was imperative that the mayor spoke at the NYC memorial service.
Just my opinion, of course.
@TR: on some counts… on others he’s still pulling stuff out of his ass…
once you’re done reading his thing, hop on over to the Time article he links to… he’s very selective in choosing which tiny piece to pull out to make his argument.
I hope you are OK.
speaking as a Tucsonan for the last 30 odd years or so, this is a fairly unique community. It’s in touch with its hispanic and indian heritage as well as maintaining a small-town feel about it despite its size. It’s mentioned over and over again by folks who visit here and folks who are from here.
some things may not resonate well with folks who aren’t familiar with how life is here. This town has been more or less emotionally numbed since events on Saturday, I imagine that only other communities like Oklahoma City and Blacksburg Virginia may be able to relate.
So the cheering is pretty much a release and an affirmation of the rest of the country acknowledging what the city has gone through and the people that the University chose to represent the city at the memorial reflect that, like the Hispanic/Yaqui Professor and requesting that Mr. Hernandez speak. A sense that Tucson is comprised of more than the imagined retired mecca for white people. In a way, it may have been its own political statement aimed at Ms. Brewer (I wouldn’t put it past the University Pres to have done so).
The thing is, the memorial service itself was a release of all of that emotion that has been building in the City over the last five days, a notice to state that “we’re still here and we’ll move on despite the tragedy”. These kids that are 18-22 in the audience, how many of them do you honestly believe know how to grieve? Is there even a right way to grieve? This wasn’t a funeral, this was a memorial to those lost and those savagely injured and a celebration of those lives lost and in hope of life renewed. Is there a book of Roberts rules of behavior for these kinds events held in a basketball auditorium?
Could there have been a bit of Presidential swooning mixed in with all of that, sure, I think its safe to assume so, but I sure don’t believe any harm or taint was meant to those who died and those who survived.
@Chris: @hamletta: You’re both right. It’s always easier to criticize from the sidelines.
I love Tuscon, having spent a little time there. But it still is too big a city for me, as is Albuquerque. And too damn hot in the summer.
While I don’t always agree with you, many of your comments are themselves pitchperfect and this one nails the whole memorial perfectly. Thanks.
@Mike Kay: I completely get your point. But also I thought Alan Grayson’s response was pretty classy:
@freelancer: You can’t win an argument with someone who doesn’t want to be reasonable.
Edit: By the way, this is the first time I’ve been told “fuck you” on a blog, but at least I am in good company.
But it’s a dry heat! Seriously, there is a certain beauty to me about the southern Arizona desert, and Tucson to me is a real breath of fresh air (especially in winter) compared to the stale McSprawl that is Phoenix metro.
@MikeJ: The state is lovely (I’ve lived there too) but everyone is always saying the city needs fixing…
And it appears to be a whole lot of company as well.
Yo, eemom – I comment here about once every other year, but I’ve been reading for quite awhile. I just read through nearly 400 comments and yours was by far the most consistently discordant voice. I generally like what you write, but tonight you sound like you’ve been on speed for the last 3 days and ain’t no one nohow gonna say something that sounds right to you. I know the hole you’re in is so deep you can’t see the top anymore, but STOP DIGGING!!! You’ve got many friendly voices here trying to telling you that you’re out of line – stop and listen.
Amazingly, Jim Hoft/Gateway Pundit had something positive to say:
I’m not gonna jump on you. I have no idea what it’s like to have a friend caught up in these tragic events. But, as a pagan and someone who’s attended a lot of these sort of native events, he wasn’t really being over the top and I was tickled pink as both someone of indigenous heritage and pagan spirituality to have a shaman to cleanse, bless and start the ritual. YMMV and hang in there, Giffords has proven she won’t be going anywhere without a good hard fight.
…judges? And, after all, this was a political assassination.
That said, I started feeling prayed upon not too long after it started. And Obama is talking conciliation again.
perhaps you should go back to reading. You know, until you get it right.
eemom vs everybody–greatest thread in Balloon Juice history?
heh. Some friend YOU are.
@John Cole: you know EXACTLY what im saying.
EDK is a spinmeister propagandist NO DIFFERENT from Douthat and McMegan.
Hes had at least 20 threads full of crap. He is unteachable.
@AxelFoley: My first laugh of the day! (thank you)
I hope Cole watched Obama’s speech on YouTube or something, because it was incredible.
The cheering was disconcerting at first, but I think it was just people recognizing and applauding the victims. It began to seem more appropriate to me as the speech went on.
Anyway, that was an amazing speech; Obama really delivered. I guess I’ll have to hold off on bashing him for a couple of days at least . ..
@AxelFoley: If your a moron.