I realize that my need to win arguments with Megan McArdle is self-indulgent and unhealthy, but watching all these hacks laugh at Harper’s made we want to retch.
I mentioned to McMegan that the Atlantic was only breaking even and that that was possibly only because of the “salons” its owner runs. She claimed I was confusing the Atlantic with the Washington Post (which also runs, or was planning to run. similar “salons”), I gave a google link.
Not very exciting, I realize.
Church Lady
Since Ms. McArdle is not the business manager of The Atlantic, why would you care whether or not she knows exactly how the magazine turns a profit? Talk about nit-picking. You need to find a more mentally healthy hobby.
MikeJ
It’s a small town. And it’s not your town. Why do you keep thinking you’re as good as your betters?
sukabi
weird bunch over in the comments… who with a functioning brain would consider McMegan “left”…. maybe a “left behind”, but definitely not left.
BGinCHI
OMG, scroll down from there and read the cat fight between Megs and her pet troll.
Hint: he thinks she’s left-wing.
Just awesome.
Doug, it’s not you sockpuppeting, is it?
DougJ DougJson
@Church Lady:
Whew, I was happy to see your name on that comment.
aimai
Doug, take your cues from Annie Laurie and the people who really know how to hold a grudge: its worth it to take on Megan if only because she is one of the most horrendous fakers and liars in the business. There’s no way Megan can write five fifths of what she does and not know she is lying–its that egregious. Or, if she doesn’t know she’s lying, she’s phenomenally and even criminally stupid. Susan of Texas has a nice little breakdown of just how closely Megan’s particular brand of mendacity follows the Republican party line. That kind of congruence isn’t a coincidence–it can’t be put down to anything but that she reads some kind of memo every day and then transforms it with her own brand of selfish, careless, obfuscating blather into a blog post sort of like a shit artist taking an original piece of garbage and smearing it into a multi-media shit filled art extravaganza.
aimai
freelancer
Maybe she read that word as “Saloons”.
mistermix
The “let me google that for you” link was a nice touch.
Jim, Once
@sukabi:
Oh yeah … one of the weirdest threads I’ve ever read.
Jim, Once
BTW – thanks for yet another great allusion with that title, Doug.
DougJ DougJson
@Jim, Once:
I didn’t like that book that much even though I’m from near the ‘Cuse but I always liked its title.
despues76
nothing says you are being a straight dick like lmgtfy. so petty and so funny
schrodinger's cat
@Jim, Once: OK I will admit it, I don’t get it.
slag
@mistermix:
Agreed. It’s that level of detail-orientation that also makes DougJ an exceptional business and economics editor for Balloon Juice.
eemom
@schrodinger’s cat:
Because it is Bitter, etc is the title of a novel by Joyce Carol Oates.
I don’t think I’ve ever liked any of her books, though it’s been a long time since I read one.
ETA: I’ve never read McArdle at all. Not even tempted to see what all the fuss is about.
BGinCHI
Any word on whether Megan is going to participate in the Nixonland book club?
I think this is really a teachable moment.
Jim, Once
@eemom:
If you read ALL her books, which I’m kind of embarrassed to say I have, because I’m a fiction whore, you’ll find there are some’ very fine ones, but just don’t ask me which ones they are… because I’m a fiction whore, and forget all kinds of shit in the excitement of it all.
Jim, Once
@BGinCHI:
What a beautiful, beautiful idea. I would so join that book club.
Jim, Once
@schrodinger’s cat:
Joyce Carol Oates novel – which I can’t recommend.
Origuy
@eemom:
It was from Stephen Crane before that.
In the desert
I saw a creature, naked, bestial,
Who, squatting upon the ground,
Held his heart in his hands,
And ate of it.
I said, “Is it good, friend?”
“It is bitter–bitter,” he answered;
“But I like it
Because it is bitter,
And because it is my heart.”
I had to Google, I admit I couldn’t remember the reference.
Cat Lady
The best thing about the Atlantic is that you can say David Bradley and “and a pony” in the same sentence and it’s not a joke.
Jim, Once
@Origuy:
Yes! Thanks for the reminder.
freelancer
@slag:
Agreed. I had know idea about LMGTFY, and to be introduced to it with DougJ deploying it on a fact-free schmuck like McArdle is like seeing Shakespeare as it was meant to be produced. Also, his titles rock.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=DougJ+post+title+site:balloon-juice.com
geg6
@aimai:
I believe the technical term for that is the Suderman Effect.
Jim, Once
Feel like I’m engaging in thread hijacking – sorry. I am glad, though, that Doug pushed me to read McMeg. I had never done it ’til now. She’s ,,, pretty bad. Also, too … I just noticed that comments pop up as soon as they’re posted, as opposed to me having to refresh constantly before to see them. Excellent.
eemom
@Jim, Once:
damn, I WAS just about to ask that. : (
schrodinger's cat
@eemom:
@Jim, Once:
Thanks!
Riggsveda
Having subscribed to and loved both Harper’s and The Atlantic since the mid-70s, I can tell you that Harper’s stayed true to itself long after The Atlantic became the mouthpiece of the politico-oligarchy, and the latter, with its token female bomb-thrower McArdle (Flanagan doesn’t weigh in so much anymore), isn’t fit to even reference the former in a footnote. I don’t know how Fallows stands it. I gave up subscribing after realizing that no amount of his work or William Langewiesche’s was going to legitimize what has finally become a pile of crap composed of fifty dollar words.
And Harper’s, God bless them, has always battled hard times, and weathered them. It will be just fine.
Tom Levenson
I bow to you DougJ. I haven’t close to the stomach for crap shoveling you are willing to do to ruin McArdle’s day.
We are in the presence of a master….
Jim, Once
@Riggsveda:
This. Absolutely and amen. I will continue to subscribe to Harpers as long as possible – gave up Atlantic years ago. Which reminds me – time to re-up.
jwb
@BGinCHI: My favorite part of McMegan’s conversation with her troll: “The only reason I don’t ban you is that you keep coming back.” Which really shows McMegan’s complete lack of self-understanding.
MoonBatista
It was worth it to see her new fanboy who thinks she’s leftwing. Wow. Thanks.
UncommonSense
I thought Harper’s missed a significant opportunity when the New York Times put their columnists behind a paywall a few years ago. I thought that Harper’s should have hired Paul Krugman away from the NYT, taken down its own paywall, and made him its anchor.
The PR value alone would have made it worth doing. The magazine would have had some real momentum. It would have foretold moves you see today, such as The Daily Beast hiring Howard Kurtz away from the Washington Post.
I hope Harper’s pulls it together somehow. I got my first subscription when I was 13, and it has always occupied a soft, warm spot in my heart.
Jim, Once
@eemom:
We Were the Mulvaneys, Blackwater – but she’s eerily prolific – just go to Amazon and check out the amazing number of books she’s written. And I stand corrected – I have NOT read them all. How can anyone write so many?
slag
@freelancer: Ha! I have to say that I was reminiscing about “Cronies love tchochkes” just the other day. Depressing that my life is so small sometimes. But I was trying to remember how to spell tchochkes for a word game I was engaged in and the title just popped into my head and made me laugh. I don’t know if I should thank DougJ for that or not.
parsimon
Without having read the thread of much of the back story: Mmph.
Go ahead and take McArdle on if you like; she’s petty, and should probably be countered from time to time. Sneering at Harper’s reflects unseriousness. I keep wanting to think that McArdle knows that much at least, but I honestly don’t know why I keep wanting to think that.
jeff
Well, whoever the fuck used “aids-dementia” as a way to hit at Sullivan is a fucking dick. Sorry you got that kind of comment on your post there, because it really ruined your point (maybe that was the intention of the dick who said it.)
MagicPanda
@aimai: I don’t think McMegan is lying or stupid. Ok… Maybe McMegan is stupid, but I don’t think that being stupid is the *cause* of McMegan not telling the truth.
It is easy for people to selectively pick facts and believe what they want to believe. That goes for pundits as well as the hoi polloi. With the exception of a few psychopaths like Ann Coulter, I bet most of the folks out there who spew this stuff actually believe it. Hannity for example. He’s a believer.
Why is this important? Well, for people who aren’t basing their beliefs on facts, it doesn’t work to try to change their minds by relying on facts.
Example: climate change deniers won’t be swayed by data. Neither will vaccine conspiracists.
So yes, McMegan is almost always wrong, and it’s good to counterbalance that. But if you start with the frame of “she’s lying”, then you end up with “let me prove that she’s lying by relying on facts” which hasn’t really worked out all that well when talking about HCR, climate change, or anything else.
So what’s the answer? Hell if I know.
BGinCHI
@jwb: There’s a zen master quality to that comment.
“How can I ban you if you won’t go away?”
stuckinred
what a dopey thread
jeff
@jeff:
Sorry, that’s some troll that McArdle’s fans rightly detest. I thought the poster was using abject hate to respond to Doug, and that he was one of McArle’s fans; he is not, but is instead one of her trolls.
freelancer
This just in, I love Stephen Colbert.
MikeJ
@MagicPanda: When we discussed Taibbi earlier, I mentioned that there were three options. Lying, stupid, or really just doesn’t care about the truth. I think option three applies equally to McMegan.
DougJ DougJson
@freelancer:
Thank you.
BGinCHI
@Jim, Once: We used to joke that she must write while she’s on the toilet (her husband would come in and the tp would all be covered in prose).
I’m not a fan, but she has a good rep as a teacher and human being.
And she’s from Lockport, which is close to Syracuse in a kinda sorta not really way. She has a couple early short stories based on growing up there that are really good and sad.
Comrade Mary
Joyce Carol Oates was in a band?
Jim, Once
@MagicPanda:
Funny you would write this here and now – I was thinking much along the same lines. She’s NOT unintelligent (litote – I love litotes) – so will she be able to grow into real logic and understanding? Considering how important this position of hers is, it makes me sad to say probably not. I’ve had some students like her – so articulate, so convinced they’re well read, so passionate – and so, so messed up. I loved them. But they didn’t have gigs at major publications …
freelancer
@DougJ DougJson:
Check’s in the mail, I presume?
soonergrunt
Whatever floats your boat, brother.
wasabi gasp
WWMYD
J.W. Hamner
Somewhat meta, but McCardle’s troll who says: “Note the like count there, quisling” is strong evidence as to why rated comment systems are complete garbage.
Jim, Once
@BGinCHI:
Really…I have a sister who took a class with her. Said she was great. But, yes … how can anyone write as much as she does?
Chad N Freude
I let my subscription to the Atlantic lapse and renewed my subscription to Harper’s. What does that say about me?
Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther
Dear DougJ DougJson:
my need to win arguments with Megan McArdle is self-indulgent and unhealthy – you are correct, sir. And I wish to see you live a long and healthy life! So put down the McMegan rock. Just walk away….
geg6
@Jim, Once:
Love, love, love “We Were the Mulvaneys.” JCO is forgiven her many sins (inevitible in someone so prolific) for that one alone.
Jim, Once
@Chad N Freude:
Buy ya a drink, honey?
MikeJ
@Jim, Once: Writing is easy. Thinking is hard.
parsimon
@Chad N Freude: That you’re not alone.
MoonBatista
@MagicPanda: I think McMegan is stupid, and that’s why she has false points. Believing in her lies doesn’t make her less dishonest, it just makes her stupid and dishonest. Or something like that. I think I may have both McMegan and Palin fatigue. Is gin a good therapy for that?
fasteddie9318
@Church Lady: Ah, shit, I forgot to put you back in to my updated pie filter. Thanks for reminding me.
Jim, Once
@MikeJ:
Well… I’m thinking. And I was a hired writer for twenty years. So … still thinking. Writing was the hardest work I ever did.
dopealope
Screw her. I love Harper’s and have subscribe for years. I always find interesting things to read in it.
Ija
She really is pretty smug, isn’t she? It’s hard to believe this is a 38-year-old woman. She’s almost middle aged and yet argues like a teenager. She doesn’t even have youth as an excuse like a lot of bloggers.
Chad N Freude
@Jim, Once: Sure, sailor.
Jim, Once
@geg6:
I’d give it one ‘love’ – but you’re right – good novel.
Chad N Freude
@parsimon: Does it really get better?
Chad N Freude
@dopealope: So you are . . . [dramatic pause] . . . one of us?
ETA bracketed phrase. FYWP.
Jim, Once
@Chad N Freude:
Can we talk about Lewis Lapham ?
Gina
First the Ayn Rand Book Club idea, now this. Doug, honey, sweetie, darling, just walk away!
Chad N Freude
I know a really good shrink in LA. He won’t claim to “core” you, but he will help you get a rational perspective on your urge to do this awfulness.
Jim, Once
@Chad N Freude:
If he can’t core me, I’m not going.
Chad N Freude
@Jim, Once: OK, but what he’s done since he left is unreadable. Including his Quarterly. Well, most of it.
Yurpean
@Origuy: I first thought it was another song reference. The (wonderful) Scottish band ballboy have a song ‘Where do the nights of sleep go to when they do not come to me’ which references that poem and include DougJ’s blog title quote. You can listen to that song here. My favourite ballboy song though is probably ‘I hate Scotland’. Sublime indie-pop!
Chad N Freude
@Jim, Once: ARGGGH! That should have been “cure”. I was not hired here for my tpying sikll.
Three-nineteen
@jwb: I’m pretty sure she means that every time she bans the troll, (s)he just keeps re-registering under different handles and e-mails so there’s no point in banning her/him anymore.
BGinCHI
@Yurpean: I miss Teenage Fan Club.
But Frightened Rabbit and They Promised Us Jetpacks cheer me up.
Joseph Nobles
OT: A ghastly article in the New York Times about an abortion mill doctor being brought up on murder charges.
That is what abortion will look like if Roe is overturned. That’s a clear picture of how bad it’s already getting.
Richard S
I’ll be interested in how many people got the Crane reference.
Vince CA
I do not come to BJ for Stephen Crane poetry, but I find it unoddly apropos of our modern discourse. In the future, posts should have titles from WWI and WWII era authors only. DougJ, A Separate Peace is an already made title waiting for House Republican majority.
Omnes Omnibus
@Richard S: I remembered that is was from a poem, but not that it was Crane. May I have partial credit, please?
Richard S
@ Vince CA & Omnes – Aint a test but it’s a great poem.
‘In the Desert’.
Jim, Once
@Chad N Freude:
This guy agrees:
http://www.theonion.com/articles/louis-lapham-went-way-over-the-line-this-time,10926/
Richard S
@ Vince CA – This isn’t WWI or II but – We are in a civil war which is very relevant.
Yurpean
@BGinCHI: Miss them, I thought they were still going? I never listened to the Fannies, they peaked before I started listening to decent music and I’ve never made the time to go back and check them out. I’ve heard good thing ’bout Frightened Rabbit – have to add them to the list of bands to check out as well.
Chad N Freude
@Jim, Once: LL was great when he was editing the magazine and writing editorial pieces. Since he left, not so much. And an 11-1/2 year old satirical piece? I know you can do a better rebuttal than that.
Jim, Once
@Chad N Freude:
Not a rebuttal. I agree with you about the magazine and editorial pieces – and later. Just remembered the piece and thought it was fun.
Chad N Freude
@Jim, Once: Apology. Misunderstanding is one of my greatest skills.
MagicPanda
@MoonBatista et. al.,
1) yes, gin is always a good idea.
2) I still don’t think “stupid”is the right word to describe the phenomenon.
With the risk of sounding like (a) I am saying “both sides do it” or (b) being a sexist pig, let me submit the following world view that those of us on the left sometimes share.
In the 70s and 80s, it was commonly said that men and women were different purely because of cultural differences. Boys are more aggressive because society teaches then to be more aggressive, etc.
The reasons behind this belief system are basically noble. We want to make sure that men and women are treated fairly. But it does make it hard to absorb facts dispassionately. Some studies show that men and women are not as different as we once thought, while others show the opposite. It is mighty hard to look at these facts objectively instead of picking and choosing the ones we like.
Ok. I hope I haven’t said anything offensive. If so, flame away!
Jim, Once
@Chad N Freude:
Damn. You’re just too reasonable. I was looking forward to posting this:
Jim, Once
@MagicPanda:
Don’t think this is flaming. My last five years of teaching high school were pretty illuminating in reference to what you’re saying. My female students had no problem revealing their (NOT friends) aggressive sexual behavior. And my male students were equally open about how uncomfortable they were about said behavior.
JPK
Ha, nice one, DougJ
Crusty Dem
Wait, McArdle claimed ignorance about Atlantic’s salons? When she was a speaker at last year’s “Aspen Ideas Festival” by Atlantic? Where you could hob nob with the rich and fatuous for only $2700-8000?
The problem is that A) She’s stupid and B) She thinks everyone else is stupid, too.
maus
@Three-nineteen:
I appreciate how she’s too dumb to know what an IP ban is. Political site trolls aren’t smart enough for TOR, generally.
Elia
Hey Doug,
Obviously for your mental and maybe even physical health you should just say No to McMegan…
But I just want you to know that there are other people out there who are as aggrieved and almost heartbroken by everything her career represents…
And we appreciate that someone is in a sense martyring themselves for the righteous cause of needling her…
But really you should stop. Not for us, of course, but for yourself.
Nellcote
Joyce Carol Oates/Megan McCardle Mashup. Gee, thanks guys.
Warren Terra
@Chad N Freude:
Hey, me too!
Mind you, the frontispiece essays got to be insupportably self-righteous after Lapham hung it up (Lapham could be self-righteous too, but somehow was more convincing), and the selected extracts have gotten well-nigh unreadable. But the big articles remain excellent – unlike the Atlantic, where the short pieces are just unbearably smug (and devoutly aimed at the wealthy or the wanna-be wealthy, especially that ridiculous poseur Corby Kummer, who seems unaware that most people don’t plan to spend 24 hours and $500 on a meal) and the long pieces range from the middlebrow to the pathetic. Read the thumbsucker in the recent issue (either my Last Issue Ever Renew Now or my second Last Issue Ever Renew Now) about how the military is failing to retain its best officers – I could write a couple thousand words on the various ways that essay manages to be godawful and blinkered.
kdaug
@Warren Terra: This.
Andre
“Corby Kummer”? Really?
alwhite
@MagicPanda:
I’d disagree that fighting with facts won’t help. If she really is stupid facts are the only weapon you have to educate her. If she is a liar facts will expose those lies to her readers. Damage to her reputation will follow which could cause her to lose her slot there so she might consider a more honest approach. If she is just lazy (my selection) facts, particularly of the tmgtfy kind could embarrass her to slightly more effort.
But if she is just a bought and paid for whore, saying the sweet words her john tells her to, then facts will not matter. One of a whores jobs is to make the john feel special, important, bigger than other men. If she is just a whore then she knows she will always have to say those things. And the johns will line up to buy them.
matoko_chan
and remind me again how is BJ a nanowafer different from the Atlantic?
Fucking EDK is you guyz’ McMegan.
the first post i read here was A Farewell to Arms, back when i was transitioning from a hereditary republican ( i fucking had graduated-sized imported welsh ponies growing up) to a flaming crypto-anarchist/liberal, back when the nom of Palin to the VP slot epiphanied me to what the GOP relly was.
/spit
how the mighty have fallen.
arguingwithsignposts
@matoko_chan: Cudlip. EDK isn’t getting paid, you dumbass.
matoko_chan
@ AWS the retarded cow.
He is being paid.
in social capital, credibility, and having a platform to spread eumemes and conservative drench to twodigit cudlips that believe we are “winning” in A-stan and we “didnt lose” in Vietnam.
stupid subsapient bovines LIKE YOU AWS that still believe in “american exceptionalism” and the land of the “free” and the home of the “brave”.
mooo, mooo.
keep walking and chewing that cud, jesushumper.
matoko_chan
@alwhite:
exposing facts to her readership wont help.
libertarianism in America is non-empirical. her readers are ideologically conservative– conservatives fact block and exhibit backfire effect.
Proving McMegan wrong only increases her salience for them.
matoko_chan
@ DougJ
you cannot win an argument with McMegan.
she is a “libertarian” first culture intellectual.
she is anti-empirical, and proceeds from first principles only.
she despises science, facts, and empiricism equally.
it is kinda stupid to even try, IMHO.
she will never acknowlege your refutations, and actually PROVING she is wrong only increases her salience for her readership, because of backfire effect.
Tim in SF
Thank you for sharing that, DougJ. It was my first smile of the morning.
Bill Murray
@Yurpean: Teenage Fanclub put out a new album last summer on Merge, and are on the cover of the current issue of The Big Takeover
Frightened Rabbit and We Were Promised Jetpacks are both fantastic — along with The Twilight Sad. All are great young Scottish bands on Fat Cat Records