I understand why ABL was angry, but I think it is profoundly unfair to call this the actions of Firedoglake, because it wasn’t. It was some idiot in the diary sections (My FDL). FDL has a lot of people I like to read, such as Marci, Tbogg, and D-Day, and while she hates me I even enjoy some of the stuff Jane does. But with every large community, you’ll have shit like this.
In short, blaming FDL for this jackass is kinda like the wingnuts scouring the DKOS after the Loughner shooting and attributing diarist Blue Boy’s stuff to Markos. Or, to make it more clear, someone scouring the comments section here and attributing Brick Oven Bills ramblings to me.
You can see how that would be unfair.
geg6
While I agree with your basic premise, John, I have to say that all the FDLers who flocked over here to scream “racist!” at ABL (including the diarist himself) pretty much proved her point.
eastriver
agree
John W.
Agree, but if someone was so annoyed at the commenters here and occasionally your posts that they decided to stop reading the entire site, I wouldn’t blame you per se but I’d understand.
I understand your distinction but come on, what are the odds that post would be anywhere else but FDL? That’s the type of crowd they’re trying to attract. That’s the target audience.
Eric U.
The sites that have a healthy stream of user supplied content, i.e. diaries, have always had a large number of crazy diaries. There was a time when the diarist of the piece in question would have been auto-banned from dKos, but mostly for political reasons. I was never able to generate much outrage at dKos over the nutty diaries, the community moderation usually took care of that kind of problem soon enough anyway. I haven’t been participating there much, but it definitely looks like things have changed. And FDL is the nutty splinter wing of dKos.
Paul in KY
I can see why ABL was very offended by the wording of the post. FDL probably (IMO) should have stepped in sooner to remove the comment (rather than asterisking it).
I was also offended.
Tom Hilton
But the racism at FDL isn’t limited to a single diarist; it’s pervasive there, and it doesn’t get called out by anyone in charge. That’s the point ABL has been making.
Mattminus
I dunno, I firmly believe that everyone I disagree with is racist.
Omnes Omnibus
One of the differences, one pointed out by ABL, is that FDL apparently moderates and scrubs comments. If one approves and/or removes comments, one must take some responsibility for what shows up and stays up. OTOH, if one more or less allows a free for all, one cannot really be held responsible for the result. FDL’s management has opted for control; they also must bear some responsibility.
That being said, I think your general point is well taken.
MoZeu
I agree. I have really come to love ABL’s posting, but this time think she was off base. To call the entire site racist is an extraordinary claim, and it should require extraordinary evidence. The evidence in the post wasn’t even good, let alone extraordinary. I tend to feel on a gut level, by the way, that some of the hatred of the administration on FDL has a racist aspect to it, but to make that claim, I’d have to back it up.
Lee
That is exactly right.
unabogie
But John, don’t you agree that this has become common among the Pumas? Whitey tape? Talk Left and their lamenting of “AA”s stealing Hillary’s rightful nomination? Their sympathy with the Teabaggers? “House niggers?” At some point it must be said that left or right, much of the vitriol is racist.
Face
FiredoglaKKKe.
Nanette
Well, but after years of the same stuff (from front page posts to aggressively-policed comments there and in the community section) when does it become the problem of FDL? How much before even Marci, DDay and Tbogg are not enough to cover for this sort of thing?
BR
I dunno, I think ABL was right – she seemed mostly to be commenting about the culture of the site, not a lone commenter/diarist.
BR
@MoZeu:
Seemed to me she was saying that the site accepts racism, not that the site is 100% racist. The latter would be a hard claim to back up anyway…
matoko_chan
Wallah Cole, why would anyone link you and BOB when you give EDK a Frontpager slot?
Obviously you support EDK spewing conservative drench all over the front page.
lawl.
Omnes Omnibus
@matoko_chan: Drench is a verb, dear.
mikefromArlington
Blaming FDL is appropriate.
The buck stops where?
Listen, it appears there’s a consensus in that community, particularly on that diary that is defending the use of nigger. I’m not sure what kind of house you grew up in but it’s not a term I throw around openly nor is it one I throw around under the anonymity of the internet.
I don’t care if its used between buddies calling each other my nigger or used in the apparent derogatory way that FDL diarist has chosen, the entire term should have been scrubbed and the poster penalized. Or maybe want to go back to the 60’s and prior when it was fashionable for a bunch of people sitting around throwing the term around like it was going out of style.
FDL is an embarrassment knowing people consider that a left leaning blog. When I hear the garbage that passes and thoughtful commentary for some from that site, it makes me cringe at the thought I could be associated with those attention seekers. But hey, the Internet has a billion voices and I guess their way of breaking through is being the most outrageous dissenting, what they consider themselves to be, progressive voice.
geg6
@unabogie:
Please, let us not forget the infamous Joe Lieberman in black face graphic. I mean, I hate Joe Lieberman but do I feel the need to use racist terms and graphics to make the point?
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@matoko_chan: Please go back to being incoherent. You make more sense that way.
Fuck U II: The Duckening
How long until Cole is banned from his own site for repeatedly giving aid & comfort to FDL?
eric
@BR: as i read it, one of her main points was the acquiescence of the other posters to the chosen language and then the defense of the language.
If someone posted as to how certain jewish politicians were Kapos leading liberal jews to political suicide, I think I can guess the response.
Certain phrases had best be used with caution, and that is one of them.
ETA: I am agreeing with BR.
mistermix
@matoko_chan: Yeah, EDK’s politely worded, always civil posts are just the same thing as spewing racists epithets.
Moron.
Ija
@matoko_chan:
This is the address for ED’s real blog. Maybe it would be more effective for you to harass him over there since he rarely shows up here anyway. And he reads and participates in the comments there on a regular basis, unlike here.
http://ordinary-gentlemen.com/
Cackalacka
I certainly agree with ABL’s take on that thread, and while not familiar (apart from TBogg and Attackerman) with that sight, if this type of glib-liberal-white-supremecy is as pervasive and teatarded as ABL asserts, that ain’t good.
That said, I find TBogg to be second only to Edroso in the world of righteous snark (ABL is certainly in the same league, but no-one can touch the level of satire with the same brevity and panache as those two cats.) And I realize that Attackerman left last week, but he’s always been my favorite national defense blogger, by a country mile.
I was disgusted in the nature of that thread ABL highlighted, though.
handy
last I checked John you don’t allow BOB front page status (cudlip girl’s point above notwithstanding). Not exactly the same situation but nevertheless dude’s not just some drive by commenter and considering all the people flocking to defend his dumb ass over there (and here) I would say that place has a problem.
Paul in KY
@Omnes Omnibus: I think she meant ‘dreck’.
geg6
@Ija:
What I can’t understand is why she just doesn’t skip over his posts. I generally do that when EDK posts something because I almost always find them pretty much your average “soft” libertarian stupidity.
Just don’t read what you don’t like. How difficult is that?
PS
Can we just agree that the FDL poster was
insaneoperating on his own, but influenced by a pervasive rhetoric ofviolenceindifference to racism?Omnes Omnibus
@Paul in KY: So do I, but, if someone of her vaunted intellect cannot handle a little constructive criticism, I weep for the prospects our world.
aimai
@Omnes Omnibus:
I think drench can also be used as a noun. I believe they give horses “drenchs” which are some kind of therapeutic drink.
aimai
General Stuck
I too often scan general commenting at FDL. Why? I don’t know. But ABL was spot on, imo. And I don’t hate Jane, though sometimes she pisses me off.
burnspbesq
@Omnes Omnibus:
Strunk and White are obsolete cudlips, dontcha know. Grammar hegemonists and all like that.
matoko_chan
@Paul in KY: No. i meant drench. recycled cowshit fed to cattle in feedlots.
the cows were fed their own shit for reprocessing.
the metaphor is EDK is drenching the cudlips here with recycled conservative shit– failed policies like the “free market” and supply side economics and shitty conservative myths like the “secular nation” and “american exceptionalism”.
the feedlots had to stop drenching– it caused madcow disease.
which i suspect is what is happening to the conservative base today.
Omnes Omnibus
@aimai: Of course, m_c doesn’t really see EDK’s stuff as therapeutic.
matoko_chan
@Ija: i have been banned from that blog.
i accused EDK of base-pandering and he banned me, because he couldnt refute me.
he has threatened to get me banned here as well.
Marmot
But ABL is angry.
matoko_chan
@aimai: no. feedlot drench.
recycled conservative shit.
Mikeg
Too many front-pagers, John. Your brand, though still very shrill, is suffering.
Ija
@matoko_chan:
Secular nation is a conservative myth? I thought it is Christian nation. And say what you want about ED (and believe me I have said my share of things), I don’t believe he has ever said anything that leads me to believe he is a champion of American exceptionalism.
matoko_chan
@Marmot:
Why is it ok for ABL to be angry and not for me?
Brachiator
@Omnes Omnibus:
Maybe she meant “drench” as the pluperfect participle of “purple drank.”
Yep. Drench as a noun:
1. The act of wetting or becoming wet through and through.
2. Something that drenches: a drench of rain.
3. A large dose of liquid medicine, especially one administered to an animal by pouring down the throat.
Dave
I have to agree with some others on here. If FDL is going to monitor, edit and remove comments, then they assume responsibility for what remains. And they let that word stay up and then did the half-assed “If I offended anyone, I’m sorry” version of word-scrubbing by replacing letters with asterisks. Which makes it worse, IMO.
matoko_chan
@Ija: wallah dont be thick. they PRETEND America is secular because their party’s base is wholly religious.
the judeochristian nation is just base pandering, and the secular nation is a cloaking device.
what they relly are is an oligarchy.
the bankstahs own the GOP.
Comrade Mary
I don’t know if the general culture at FDL is racist. Of course there are decent people writing there who don’t indulge in the kind of privileged bullshit described. I wouldn’t lump them all in with J. Random Contributor.
But as ABL said, and as was mentioned above by another commenter, an FDL moderator apparently turned the word “nigger” to “n****r”, as if the only thing offensive about the term used in that context was seeing all the letters on the screen instead of having to sound out the word in your head.
Maybe the moderator who worked on that thread was having a brain fart and would usually act differently, or would act differently now after getting an explanation. OTOH, maybe the moderator reflected FDL culture which has historically thought such tropes as blackface were not just knee-slappers, but cogent political commentary.
matoko_chan
@Brachiator: no, i MEANT feedlot drench.
see above ^.
pity you spent so much time on an irrelevant comment.
Marmot
@matoko_chan: Just to clarify, here’s Google’s definition 3 of drench:
Forcibly administer a drug in liquid form orally to (an animal).
I’m no rancher, but I never heard of feeding cow shit to cows and a connection to mad cow disease. I doubt it existed, but it’s possible. I do know that feedlots had to stop feeding parts of ruminants to other ruminants to avoid mad cow disease. They still feed chicken shit to ruminants.
Allan
Apparently Jane has photos of Cole, and is threatening to publish them.
matoko_chan
@mistermix: he is spewing eumemes which is worse.
what dont you understand about this? EDK is McMegan with a dick, Douchebag without the plastic cleansuit and rubber gloves.
moron.
Marmot
@matoko_chan: Oh, it’s just my usual comment on ABL, not a statement about you.
jibeaux
I’ve been outta the loop and I’m sure it’s been addressed, sorry, but why is the site formatting borked in chrome? Or is this how it’s going to look now, all scrunchy-togetherness?
General Stuck
@Comrade Mary:
I don’t think the general culture at FDL is inherently racist. I do think there are a lot of Obama haters for various reasons, who indiscriminately employ whatever rhetorical weapon that pops into their pin heads to attack obama, and it too often is quasi racist framing/codeword techniques known to be used by wingnuts for real racists. And it is nearly always tolerated by the powers that be at FDL, as acceptable dissent. And FDL is hardly the only left wing blog that does this.
jibeaux
Waitaminute, it’s better now.
matoko_chan
@Marmot: of course they suppressed it.
who would eat beef raised on its own shit?
same species bone meal and same species shit share the same genomes, proteins, encysted virii, etc. its the same vector.
lojasmo
@matoko_chan The word is “VOILÀ” dimwit.
Also, FDL is a cesspool.
matoko_chan
@Ija: look. i supported EDK in the beginning.
but hes had like ….50 posts? and he hasnt changed his core positions a nanowafer.
here is the format– EDK says of course X is bad, i deplore it. But bothsides do it. and besides fap fap fap- FREE MARKET INNOVATION!
im sick of it.
Cole should make him stand and deliver or give him the hook.
Morbo
@Ija: “Nation of Indians governed by Swedes,” I think is the general idea. Fun times stoking the persecution complex and all. Of course without you bringing it up I had no idea what the context of “secular nation” was by itself, but that is par for the course.
NonyNony
@General Stuck:
And see, to me, as far as I was raised (child of the 70s and 80s that I am), that’s racist. It’s not “white supremacist” KKK-style racism, or the racism that infested the country through the first half of the 20th century, but if you’re spouting off criticism of the President and your first thought is to throw out a racial epithet, you are being racist. You may be being an unthinking racist who is only a product of your environment, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t racist.
I mean there are all kinds of analogies and names you can use to denigrate the man in the kind of argument that ABL linked to. But if you immediately jump not just to a Southern plantation slave analogy but also seal it off with the word “nigger”, you’re being racist.
stuckinred
I jumped in one of their Obama-hating posts and told them they were a bunch of shit-eating dog fuckers. Didn’t take three minutes for them to delete that. Fuck em.
matoko_chan
@lojasmo: lol. the word is wallah.
we already did this dance here.
think of it as the muslimah version of AMG!
Marmot
@matoko_chan: Whoa. Now wayyyy OT. If this feeding-cowshit-to-cows was so common, you’d be able to find a link to proof. I’d believe it — they feed all kinds of things to cows. Nevertheless, link please.
But when it comes to mad cow disease, you’re talking prions–infectious proteins–that’re most prevalent in nervous system tissue and some of the guts. Fact is, there was a sneaking suspicion that some folks were grinding up and feeding “downer” cows to cows. Cowshit wasn’t the big worry.
Now, as for the “they” who suppressed it, you’ve now gone from accidentally misusing the definition of the word “drench” to inventing a conspiracy of etymologists.
geg6
@NonyNony:
And, as a child of the 60s and 70s, I would agree. I certainly wasn’t raised that way.
Block quote fail.
Dead Ernest
@matoko_chan: to be precise, in this case it is ‘zoonose’ rather than a vector. A vector would typically be an insect carrying the disease from one animal to another.
matoko_chan
@mistermix: correction.
EDK is McMegan with a dick, Douchebag without the plastic cleansuit and rubber gloves…which protect him from contact with icky non-fertile grrlparts.
lawl.
Omnes Omnibus
@Brachiator: I stand corrected.
matoko_chan
@Dead Ernest: yes, pardon.
zoonose.
tyvm.
wonkie
They didn’t turn it into “s**t-eating dog f****rs”?
Scott
Yeah, I’m with ABL — the entire post should’ve been deleted, and it was telling that it was not.
If it’d been my site, the post would’ve been axed in its entirety, and the author would’ve been given a warning not to do that shit again. Let ’em scream about censorship — ain’t no good reason not to smack that crap down.
General Stuck
@NonyNony:
I agree with the particular term ABL linked to as being very much racist. It was blatant. I was speaking of generally what I read in comments there about Obama something like pawns of the wingnuts, weak, puzzy, etc…. Which is really just a coded way of saying what this diarist said with the term House Nigger. Not unlike initially wingnuts attacking Obama for looking weak to the world and apologizing to everyone for the right wings notions of American exceptionalism. The irony is the wingnuts quit this tactic by and large, because Obama beat them on so many leg fronts they were confident he wouldn’t, like HCR, stimulus, etc… Then he became a strong armed commie commissar, or something.
jacy
@Marmot:
You are correct (I did my thesis on replication models for prions in infectious disease). It’s nerve tissue that’s the culprit. And that was scandal, using downer cows to bulk the protein in feedlots.
matoko_chan
@Omnes Omnibus:
Do you now.
Out Here in the West we understand feedlots….my souless rapacious republican capitalist relatives own some.
feedlot drench is just free market innovation in action.
ktward
@matoko_chan: So goes the story, TLOOG has felt obliged to ban a whopping two commenters. And you’re one of them. It seems an odd badge of honor to wear, but I appreciate your sharing. Useful tidbit of context.
slag
Yeah. I don’t blame John for all the comments regarding the word “drench” in this thread. However, it gives me pause when I see such a discussion occur on any given site. It says a little something about the culture of the place.
Who are you people and what have you done with relevancy?
Omnes Omnibus
@ktward: Obsession can be creepy.
BruceFromOhio
@Omnes Omnibus:
@stuckinred:
QED.
Man, I *loved* the ‘old” FDL – The Spin I’m In, TRex, Marcy Wheelers’ epic tomes on Scooter Libby – such an excellent body of work, it was the first or second stop every single day. How that site went from that to the I-can’t-even-find-the-right-adjective it is now is mysterious, and sad.
DougJ DougJson
@unabogie:
This is more or less what I think too.
(I don’t think the blackface thing with Lieberman was so bad, which you didn’t mention but others did, though.)
stuckinred
@wonkie: Nah, they know me and just 86d it. The nice thing was that some of my old pals were disappointed that they missed me!
ruemara
Opinions may vary, Cole, but I think I’ll use the benefit of my experience as a black person who’s primarily been amongst proper East and West Coast Liberal Elites to say that liberal elites are all edgy radical and shite while also being stupidly racist. Not all, not all the time and no they don’t go out in their best Martha Stewart Organic Cotton 100% 350 thread count sheets to burn crosses, but the attitude of superiority with a casual disregard for the all too recent history of race in this country… It can be heartbreaking.
Ija
@Omnes Omnibus:
In a Hollywood rom-com, obsession can often be rewarded with the obsessor and obsessee ending up together. There is a thin line between love and hate and all that. Too bad ED is married. But who knows, love is blind after all. So what say you, matoko? Or are you spoken for by the dear leader of Wikileaks?
Brachiator
@matoko_chan:
Didn’t spend much time on it at all. And I had puns o’ fun tying “drench” to “purple drank.” Y so serious?
scav
@Dead Ernest: What a scrabble word. I’m especially liking Xenozoonosis from wikipedia but I can’t see how that one would even get on the board. (well zoo +nosis +xeno I guess). But, just to nail the idea in my head, is the critical difference that a vector has to be a living agent of transmission? I’m also reading that zoonoses can’t rely on a human host for part of their cycle, so what’s the tricky word for the diseases that do that?
Marmot
@NonyNony:
So, here’s my problem with a lot of your generation. You’re flakes.
I mean, this idiot goes hyperbolic with a stupid racially charged metaphor aimed at toadies to the rich. You and others turn around and say it’s a racist statement about the president. Is it racially insensitive? Yes. Was it motivated by racism? Possibly. But that’s all you can say about it.
Instead, you and others have adapted the facts to support your mind reading act. Roll the tape:
The Consequences
what a chickenshit post.
Woodrowfan
I only read T-Bogg on FDL so I never realized racism was a problem there. And some blogs (Crooks & Liars) are great to read for the regular posts, but I ignore the comments.
BJ is one of the few* where it’s worth reading the posts AND the comments. (*along with Pandagon, Lawyers, Guns & Money, Sadly No and TBogg)
eemom
@Allan:
That. Something’s gotta explain why he always bends over backwards to kiss her ass.
patrick
I agree… and the fact that she made a point that it took something like fifty comments before a someone spoke up about it was silly. I have made comments on blank pages only to find twenty or more show up in the time it took to type and post my own.
Nina
@NonyNony: This, and thank you. The problem with FDL is that there is a ‘general culture’ of using their imagined ‘solidarity’ with non-whites as an excuse for flinging around loaded, bigoted terms, and they seem to revel in it. ABL’s thread, as noted there, was ‘soaking in white privilege’, but there were also some great responses to some of their standard defence language:
https://balloon-juice.com/2011/01/19/firedoglake-with-all-due-civility-go-fk-yourself/
https://balloon-juice.com/2011/01/19/firedoglake-with-all-due-civility-go-fk-yourself/
https://balloon-juice.com/2011/01/19/firedoglake-with-all-due-civility-go-fk-yourself/
And many more. That’s why I lurk here and not over there.
Omnes Omnibus
@Marmot: It is quite possible to be correct on the toadying issue, and yet use racist language. It is poor writing to do so for at least two reasons. First, it is insulting toward one’s readers. Second, using the term virtually ensures that your actual point will be lost.
Paul in KY
@Omnes Omnibus: Thought you thought that was it too. Almost put an edit in saying that.
les
Appalled by the reappearance of Matoko on my screen, I am forced to ask–did the re-work disable the work of the wondrous Cleek?
Paul in KY
@matoko_chan: I hope they croak due to the mad cow disease. Thanks for explaining, Matoko.
Southern Beale
Speaking of unfair, I know we’re all used to Rush Limbaugh being a racist asshole, but remembering the outrage and pearl clutching a few years ago when a Lefty did the same thing, I’m a little pissed off at the blatant double standard in the media.
At some point we’re going to have to stop ignoring this racist blowhard, especially when we rake our own over the coals when they do it.
catclub
Is this JohnC’s way of confessing the he is BOB trolling his own website?
How better than by disowning responsibility for him.
In Blackadder’s version of the Scarlet Pimpernel:
“Thye seek him here, they seek him there, those Frenchies seek him everywhere!”
NonyNony
@Marmot:
Guilty. A lot of us are assholes too, btw.
And my point actually is that “racially insensitive comments that are motivated by racism” and “racist” are exactly the same thing. Except that calling something “racist” has apparently in the last 30 years become horribly politically incorrect and we should instead use phrases like “racially insensitive comments possibly motivated by racism”.
It’s a racist comment. “Racially insensitive” is a phrase to paper over things for people who don’t want to do any kind of soul-searching to figure out why they make “racially insensitive” comments about black men when there are so many other names, epithets and derogatory words they could fling at someone that aren’t “racially insensitive”.
ruemara
There seems to be an unclosed tag present! Where’s our ombudsman, shouldn’t he be omsbudding?
Vescoe P. Spurnwick (formerly Milmont Glapper (formerly Brisbane Belff (formerly G. Nelson Buttnergle (formerly Mumphrey (formerly Renfrew Squeevil (formerly Mumphrey Oddison Yamm (formerly Mumphrey O. Yamm (formerly Mumphrey))))))))
Man, I don’t know. I saw the same kind of thing at MYDD back in early 2008, when the primaries were still going strong. The people who ran the site never said anything racist, but there sure were a lot of people putting diaries up with all kinds of racist shit in them, but almost always shaded just enough that they could claim that it was never meant to be racist, oh, no, never.
After a while it botherd me enough that I wrote my own diary calling it all out. Swarms of people showed up to call me a hypocrite and a mysogynist and said I was accusing Hillary Clinton of being a racist, which I wasn’t, or that I was calling anyone who voted for her a racist, which I wasn’t. It was ugly, though I did get a lot of people backing me up. I haven’t been there for at least a year now.
stuckinred
@catclub: I thought that was the Kinks?
Allan
Italics! Comment numbering restarting mid-stream! Wolverines!
Paul in KY
I have taken over your pathetic comment thread & renumbered it! Buwahahahhahahaha
Bow down before me!
Edit: If I screwed it up somehow, I iz sorry.
MoonBatista
@matoko_chan: Because ABL makes sense and doesn’t spew inaccuracies
slag
@les: It pains me to say it, but I actually kind of like Matoko. I can’t say why exactly. Maybe it’s something to do with fortitude. Or insanity. Either way, there’s at least some entertainment value there. Spice of life and whatnot.
Tim
It continues to mystify as to why so many BJ Kool Kids are obsessed with the alleged evilness of FDL.
I have been called a “Firebagger” multiple times in comment threads here at BJ, and I drop by FDL about 10 per cent as much as I visit Balloon Juice. And I almost never read thru entire posts or read comment threads; yet somehow I am one of the FDL evildoers.
To those of you to whom the above applies: your FDL obsession and over the top accusations of racism, etc. against posters and commenters over there seems to me based in some kind of defensive inferiority complex, and a tribal need to see everything as your group (BJ) against THEM (FDL). Grow up.
Good shit gets posted at FDL right along with some bad shit, just like at BJ. It might be wise to consider getting a life outside of the internets.
Omnes Omnibus
@Allan: More importantly, a brilliant comment by yours truly got disappearized.
morzer
@matoko_chan:
You’ve just raised ED Kain’s popularity by about 50%.
Just sayin’.
stuckinred
@Tim: It might be wise for you to mind your own fucking business. How’s that grab ya?
Marmot
@NonyNony: I appreciate the explanation, but I think you missed my point.
The FDL commenter was using the epithet to refer to lefties, not Obama.
That’s why it’s racially insensitive — it’s not actually directed at the epithet’s usual racial target. If it’d been directed at Obama, I’d be agreeing with you that it’s truly racist. As it is, that idiot unnecessarily raised everyone’s hackles by introducing additional overtones.
Paul in KY
@slag: I like her too. She has passion. Plus, she has these new words like cudlip & wallah & drench (as a noun).
AxelFoley
Fuck ’em, John.
If it walks like a duck…birds of a feather…yadda, yadda, yadda…
morzer
@Paul in KY:
She’s also reinvented English, Arabic and French. Or maybe it was her glossolalia taking over.
General Stuck
@Paul in KY:
Like every family, Every blog should have at least one crazy Aunt for everyone to roll their eyes at.
Mrs. Polly
Dearest Mr. Cole, I can see why you would rather not have yet another skirmish with the skirmish-happy FDLers; it’s repetitive and exhausting. But let me add my voice to others who have already pointed out that it’s one thing for a diarist to post racially insensitive, inflammatory garbage, and quite another to have Mngmnt in the form of a Mod/Censor come in sprinkling asterisks over the garbage, saying, “don’t spell it out, darling!”
Omnes Omnibus
@Paul in KY: Very small doses. She has the ability to ruin interesting threads by spamming them with cyber-punk, free verse screeds.
AxelFoley
@Face:
Win.
El Tiburon
I’ve learned to skip ABL. More ED, less ABL if you must.
Her shtick is tired and old.
Omnes Omnibus
@El Tiburon: There are many meats in our cultural stew.
Allan
@Marmot:
Oh, well then, that’s completely different. (Smiles at camera) Never mind.
/Emily Latella
morzer
@Omnes Omnibus:
Blood-pudding libel!
El Tiburon
@Woodrowfan:
Because there isn’t a racism problem over there for fucks sake.
D. Mason
@stuckinred: You should have went with dog-eating shit fuckers, the confusion might have kept it up another minute or two.
Angry Black Lady
I disagree, obviously, for the reasons many have stated above. You don’t moderate your comment section, John, so you don’t own the fuckery that gets tossed around here. You don’t own my fuckery, for example.
For a moderator to come through and scrub the “igge” from the word with a “tsk tsk, we don’t do that here” means that the owner of that blog owns that shit. And that isn’t the first instance of it, or I likely wouldn’t have made such a stink about it.
We can agree to disagree, but I’m right.
eemom
hey, *I* have an idea — how about matoko-loko goes peddling her wares over at FDL?? I think I’d pay to see the reaction to her calling Princess Hamsher a cudlip.
Then again, it’d be gone in a nanosecond — as would matoko herself — so never mind.
Allan
@Tim: It’s nice of you to demonstrate your intellectual superiority and higher moral plane like this. I’ll strive to raise the level of my discourse to this elevated and refined level from now on.
MoonBatista
@jacy: Thank you. I knew someone would point that out before I had to. Downer cows, not cowshit in the water troughs. But it’s typical that actual facts don’t mean much when an incoherent rant is in progress. Eagerly awaiting the new cleek-fix!
John Cole
Or alternately, in a world inhabited by adults, I may have a decade of experience running a blog with open comments and front-pagers with free run to say what they want, and have been accused of sharing the sentiments of some of the commenters when I don’t.
And I have no idea how anyone thinks I “kiss Jane’s ass.” When I agree with her, I say so. When I don’t, I say so.
Only in a truly warped mind in which the only negative things can be said would this accusation stand.
gwangung
@ruemara:
Bingo.
It’s one thing progressives and liberals shares with wingnuts and teatards—an arrogant blindness to their own clumsiness wrt to race.
morzer
@eemom:
Matoko-four-loko even?
John Cole
Love it. Added that to the taglines.
eemom
@Angry Black Lady:
absolutely you’re right, and imo it kinda sucks for Cole to go kissing Jane’s ass again instead of sticking up for you.
Angry Black Lady
@DougJ DougJson: it IS that bad. that’s the thing. it’s awful. why don’t people understand how awful it is?
sigh.
morzer
@gwangung:
Some progressives and liberals, not all. Wouldn’t want to paint with too broad a brush here.
Allan
@John Cole: Oh my God, you’re starting to whine just like Jane. Seriously, if you can’t take a joke, you should never admit it, because you’re going to get “drenched” in them now.
John Cole
@eemom: I A.) wasn’t kissing Jane’s ass, and B.) wasn’t not sticking up for her. I just disagreed she should attribute the whole thing to FDL, as opposed to the zoo that is My FDL and the idiots in there.
Christ, I bet you ate up Bush’s “with us or against us” crap, didn’t you?
El Tiburon
And while we are at it, let’s talk about what it means to be a ‘racist’ or the accusation that ‘racism’ is involved.
I agree that many white people don’t have 20/20 vision when it comes to racial issues. Most of us white folks have no real concept of what it means to be black in this country.
But if we ‘misuse’ a phrase or say something that may offend a black person, it does not mean we are racists or in any way think blacks are inferior. It may just mean we are sometimes stupid and may not understand how a phrase might be offensive.
Look, I am sure many whites see the Rebel flag as simply a mascot of their school without realizing its history. It does not mean they are a racist.
So go fuck yourself as well.
morzer
@eemom:
No wonder I feel a mysterious attraction to you. It’s that truly warped mind of yours that does things for me.
John Cole
@Allan: eemom isn’t joking, she’s dead serious and states this over and over and fucking over again.
Allan
@El Tiburon:
Nope. No defensiveness here at all.
morzer
@John Cole:
Are we heading for a trip down “Iraq War Nostalgia Lane” here?
Allan
@John Cole: Um, then you might consider not quoting ME before attacking her.
wobblybits
@El Tiburon:
In all seriousness, how does one ‘misuse’ that kind of phrase?
gwangung
@morzer: Sorry, you’re right;very sloppy phrasing on my part.
But that attitude just pisses me off. They’re congratulating themselves on how progressive and unbiased they are when they’re behaving just like the idiots they’re being superior to. Don’t pat me on the head for being a good victim when you’re doing some of the victimizing…
Nina
@Mrs. Polly: Upthread I had hoped to link to one of your comments in ABL’s thread, along with a few others there (ABL herself, Wile E. Quixote), that really help to bring the focus where it belongs, on FDL-style ‘equivalence makes it OK to say cracker or whatever, cuz it’s all racist’ type of blogging ‘analysis’. Yep, if it walks, quacks, swims, has ducklings like a duck…
morzer
@wobblybits:
By using it?
Tim
@stuckinred:
Oh man…case in point.
So Stuckinred, BJ would be YOUR fucking business then? Just to be clear?
eemom
@John Cole:
You bend over backwards to be nice to her — e.g., FPing links to the occasional post where she says something halfway sane, even though it’s inevitably something that everyone else in the blogosphere has already said –when she’s been a total asshole to you. In my book, that equals not only ass-kissing, but weird, inexplicable ass-kissing.
This doesn’t make grammatical sense, but I will gladly cop to having a warped mind.
gwangung
@El Tiburon: Lookin’ at you.
And, dude, really. The first time, I can buy…but the fifty-first time? Rigggghhhhhhht.
wobblybits
@morzer: I realize you’re being funny but my question was and still is serious. How is such a loaded word (the n word in question) ‘misused’? It’s not like it’s a slang term or something.
Omnes Omnibus
@El Tiburon: While I would say it is possible to make a racist comment inadvertently or through a lack of knowledge about racial issues, a history of those comments can, and should be, circumstantial evidence of racism. Words are actions, and one can be judged on them.
Paul in KY
@Omnes Omnibus: I haven’t had as much experience with that as you guys. I hadn’t really noticed her much prior to last weekend’s Tunisia thread.
I know in Salon, there are posters who I never read, see their name & just go on to next post.
Marmot
@Allan: If you’ve got an argument to the contrary, don’t just be coy. Out with it.
AxelFoley
@El Tiburon:
Says a lot about you.
morzer
@gwangung:
Sure, and you are quite right to point that attitude out. I don’t really know what half the labels people love to apply to themselves mean at this point, so I tend to go by how they conduct themselves. But it is noticeable that a lot of people will say in effect that “No true Scotsman could speak or act in a racist manner, and since I am a true Scotsman, therefore I could not possibly have done so”.
Angry Black Lady
@El Tiburon: allow me to exorcise my inner 4 year old: so’s your face.@El Tiburon: what the fuck is misusing the term “house nigger”? especially after someone informs you of how insensitive it is? jesus h. christ on a crouton. some of you people really need help.
as for me, i really need to get my ass to work.
Paul in KY
@D. Mason: How about shit fucking dog eaters? That might have given them pause.
Tim
@Allan:
You’re welcome!
eemom
Oh, FUCK YOU, Cole. That is really going too far.
No, I NEVER WAS a fucking mindless Republitard like you — and don’t take it out on me that you’ve got that shit on your conscience.
morzer
@wobblybits:
Actually, my response is also serious at base.
Allan
@Marmot: I’ll express myself as coyly as I choose, language fascist.
I prefer to assume sufficient intelligence on the part of my readers that they can connect their own dots and see why what I said was funny, without spelling everything out and ruining the comic effect.
matoko_chan
@ktward: EDK banned me because i accused him of base-pandering.
i have the emails.
he does base-pander. all conservatives do.
that is the essence of modern conservatism.
the compact is that the conservative base holds counterfactual, stupid, and wholly religious ideas, and the oligarchs and neocons agree not to point that out in return for their votes.
the oligarchs and neocons even PRETEND to endorse those idiot ideas and PRETEND to attempt to force those ideas on the rest of the citizenry, but it is all just headfakes to farm their votes.
wobblybits
@morzer: Guess I didn’t read it that way. I blame myself.
NobodySpecial
This is why I’m down to pretty much Cole, DougJ Dougson, Tom, and Anne Laurie. ED and ABL don’t add enough value for the head pounding migranes they induce.
matoko_chan
@eemom: lawl…..the cudlips here are republican fifth columnists.
they swallow the drench.
Marmot
@Allan:
Haha. Awesome. “Your readers” anxiously await more of your well-crafted wisdom!
TooManyJens
@Marmot:
Not sure I get your point. Aren’t those things bad enough?
morzer
@eemom:
He’s a Steelers fan too, you know.
Just to complete the indictment.. or have we moved on to impeachment?
NobodySpecial
@eemom: The lady doth protest too much, likely because her behavior during the ACA/PO stuff is still quite available to read.
arguingwithsignposts
@matoko_chan: go fuck yourself, M_C. you lie about people you disagree with and troll dead threads. you are worse than BOB
eemom
@NobodySpecial:
bring it on, shithead.
Paul in KY
@matoko_chan: Sounds like the Reagan administration (and Bush I). I think Bush II tried a bit harder to get some of the base’s pet whackery into law (in form of SCOTUS nominations, etc.).
slag
@El Tiburon: Wow. I now take back all the credit I ever gave you.
Depressing as hell. I hate seeing what has happened to the left these days. Truly hate it.
matoko_chan
@MoonBatista: that wasnt my point. MY POINT is that feedlot drench is recycled cowshit and EDK’s posts are recycled conservative shit.
for all you know nerve tissue WAS an additive to the cowshit that made up the manufactured drench they used in feedlots.
Drench was actually part of a Purina feeds tradename i think.
Tsulagi
@Angry Black Lady:
Yep.
Nope. On balance I agree with Cole. I’m right. So there.
matoko_chan
@arguingwithsignposts: i dont lie…..
jesushumper.
:)
Marmot
@TooManyJens: Throwing around racially charged bullshit is definitely bad. But unless there’s a history of that kind of thing from a person, I wouldn’t call it proof that they’re a racist. In my world, that’s a rather serious accusation requiring rather serious proof.
TooManyJens
Except for the part where they go through and delete stuff they find unacceptable, and they not only didn’t delete this but actively accepted it with just a completely meaningless edit. Sure, Jane didn’t post it herself or anything, but that kind of post is demonstrably OK with TPTB at FDL. That’s the difference.
D. Mason
@eemom: Uh-oh better be careful there, you’re getting dangerously close to calling John a House n-word over here. at least according to:
General Stuck:
Wouldn’t want you to become a racist by accusing someone of ass kissing someone else to gain favor. It’s getting very close to plantation style rhetoric.
arguingwithsignposts
@matoko_chan: ah, but you do. signed, atheist. cudlip.
morzer
@matoko_chan:
No, you don’t lie. Lying requires a degree of cognitive capacity and self-awareness that you simply do not possess.
Cudlip!
matoko_chan
@Paul in KY: consider RTL.
Bush II never did anything to repeal Roe.
never even a headfake.
wobblybits
For the record, I’m not calling the idiot who wrote the original post over at FDL a racist (I don’t know for a fact if he is or not), just an idiot and an ass for the non-apology apology (‘if’ I offended someone).
NobodySpecial
@eemom: Temper, temper.
matoko_chan
@arguingwithsignposts: lawl. you present as a judeoxian american exceptionalist.
perception is reality on the interwebs :)
@morzer: dude, i am the one not swallowing the drench.
wobblybits
@D. Mason: Enough already! You know that she is not coming close to saying any such thing so just knock it off. Engage in honest debate/discussion.
scav
I’m finding this whole m_c drench concept very meta actually.
ruemara
@Marmot:
You see, heartbreaking.
TooManyJens
@Marmot: I think people mistakenly get hung up on the idea that calling out racist language use = “calling someone a racist.” It’s not the same thing, and it’s a distraction from the main point, which in this case is whether or not FDL is a place where it’s OK to use racist language. Which I would say that, up to a certain point, it seems to be.
Ed Marshall
I sympathize, but I’d sympathize more if a moderator hadn’t gone in there and threw some asterisks into the word “nigger” and thought that fixed it.
The problem isn’t the word “nigger”, the problem is you called Barack Obama a nigger.
Marmot
@matoko_chan: Miss, I like your chutzpah, and we agree about EDK pretty much. But your exponentially expanding vocabulary is crazy! Drench already means something in animal husbandry, near as I can tell, and it ain’t recycled cowshit!
Marmot
@TooManyJens: We are in agreement, then.
arguingwithsignposts
@matoko_chan: no, i present as a person who is so tired of your bullshite. nobody knows if you’re a dog, right? cudlip. BTW, the U.S. lost the war in vietnam. for the record, asshole.
Allan
@slag: Yes, it’s been a really interesting two years, hasn’t it?
I’ve had to cull and cull my Twitter stream and Facebook friends as one by one, they exploded in a rage of white privilege and lost their shit in embarrassing public displays just like El Tiburon’s here, or transformed into firebaggers dripping with contempt for the best president I’ve experienced in my lifetime.
NobodySpecial
@Ed Marshall: No, the problem IS the word “nigger”. It’s not OK to call, say, 50 Cent a “nigger”, either.
D. Mason
@wobblybits: I’m just using General Stucks’s definition. You should be attacking him for trying to expand any insult into being an equivalence of house n-word. Wasn’t.Me.This.Time.
Ed Marshall
@NobodySpecial:
It’s not ok to call anyone a nigger. Throwing asterisks into doesn’t fix that. That was my whole point.
Maybe I wasn’t clear, nutpicking douchebags with an FDL diary doesn’t say much about FDL. The fact that a moderator caught it and thought the problem with the post was that it used letters to say nigger instead of asterisks, DOES say something something is wrong with FDL.
wobblybits
@D. Mason: Stuck isn’t the one that said that about eemom, you did. You wrote it, own it.
NobodySpecial
@Ed Marshall: Then you shouldn’t have added this:
Kinda undercuts your point.
morzer
@matoko_chan:
No, dear child, you’ve moved on from drench to purple drank, which you then proceed to upchuck all over this blog.
D. Mason
@wobblybits: Ok so let me get this straight. I can’t use dictionary definitions and I can’t use the house definitions(no relation). What goddamn criteria can we have for understanding around here?????
Allan
@D. Mason: It’s nice of you to come back, after you were unmasked as a ball of seething racial resentment the last time you attempted to “explain” what constitutes racism to ABL.
wobblybits
@D. Mason: Stop deflecting because it is not something that works for you and when did I say you couldn’t use dictionary definitions? You can use whatever you want, but don’t try to pawn it off on someone else. I simply said that it was you that said that about eemom and not stuck which is why I directed my comment at you. Why is that so hard for you to understand?
ETA: Removed unnecessary smart ass remark
D. Mason
@Allan: Explain?!?!?! No I’m trying to understand. It’s this wacky dictionary that won’t let me. ARGH!
Paul in KY
@matoko_chan: If he could have knocked off a couple more Supremes & got his Aliotites (more of them) on there, then they might have tried.
Although, I think they prefer the base to be up in arms about it all the damn time (helps fundraising).
D. Mason
@wobblybits: That’s true, you didn’t say I can’t use them you just denied their validity. I’m only trying to get on the same page as the juicebaggers. Now you’re denying the validity of General Stucks definition. I’m just saying you should take that up with him in the same way you took up dictionary adherence with me.
matoko_chan
@arguingwithsignposts: niiice! you can learn.
@Marmot: yeah, but my meaning is drenching with cowshit. yes, the drench is technically a microbial byproduct to enhance digestion, fed along with the cowshit. but the PRACTICE is called drenching.
my relatives own feedlots.
pretty yucky isnt it?
the yuck-factor is even higher than same species body parts cannibalism i think. that is why there isnt a whole lot of publicity for the practice.
it was discontinued at the onset of MCD i think, before they were sure of the transmission vector.
i love the word zoonose. that rawks.
what do you think?
wobblybits
@D. Mason: I’m not denying anything because you only brought it up after you made the comment and I called you on it. My issue when I responded was the comment YOU made. Can we at least agree that it was you that typed the comment? I denied their validity? I did that when? (Oh, because I didn’t go after Stuck who didn’t actually write the comment) I get it, you’re not responsible for anything. Got it.
matoko_chan
@Paul in KY: yup. they dont relly want to solve any of the issues they flame up the base with.
its all headfakes.
Allan
@D. Mason: I once had the pleasure of reporting to an HR manager who was absolutely brilliant at using questions that opened with “Help me understand…” and were actually brilliant restatements of the stupidity that the other person is espousing.
You can’t hold a candle to her.
Shinobi
I think the response of the community to remarks like that is just as important as the remarks themselves. The fact that the first person who responded wasn’t all “Hey that shit you just said was racist” says something about that community.
D. Mason
@wobblybits: I only brought it up after you “called me on it”? I brought it up in the original posting which you allegedly called me on. Of course I typed it. I was trying to be helpful in steering her away from what seemed to be his definition of house n-word dog whistles, which I cited.
I mean, look. I’m a white man and I’ve been going through life ignorantly thinking that all I had to do to avoid being a racist was to not mistreat or discriminate against people based on the color of their skin. Now I come along and realize that this whole time, every time I’ve said something equivalent to weakness or someone being a pawn that I’ve really been invoking the specter of house n-word. Even though it wasn’t my intention I was clearly as guilty as a white man can be so I wanted to help eemom avoid any similar pit-falls along the road of life. Excuse me for my ham-handed attempt at consideration.
wobblybits
@D. Mason:
Like I said, you’re not responsible for anything, I got it.
As I have said, I don’t think the man is a racist. I don’t think that every person that uses the word is necessarily a racist but using the word given its historical context and given the objections of commenters on the original post and then to defend its usage makes that person at the very least an ass.
Again, I called you on it because you wrote it. YOU wrote it but I get it, you can’t be responsible for what you write.
Allan
@D. Mason: This is true, as long as you agree that it’s worse to be thought a racist than to experience actual racism.
D. Mason
@Allan: Apparently, since it’s impossible for me to experience actual racism(because of my skin color, natch), I wouldn’t be in a position to judge.
eemom
I trust we are now officially over our “civility” phase, such as it was.
Omnes Omnibus
@D. Mason: Dude, stop digging.
sixers
ABL flying off the handle and portioning blame onto people who do not deserve it? I’m shocked!
Pococurante
I always assumed B.O.B. was John in a troll suit working off his stress.
Allan
@Omnes Omnibus: When the only tool you have is a shovel, every problem looks like a hole.
MoonBatista
@Marmot: Merci, M. Marmot.
Omnes Omnibus
@Allan: It appears to me that the only tool he has is a spork.
Omnes Omnibus
@sixers: You are wrong, but please do continue.
Allan
@Omnes Omnibus: But you have to admire the tenacity with which he wields it.
El Tiburon
@AxelFoley:
What the fuck does it say about me? This is my point. I try and have a discussion (and FWIW, I am not defending or excusing anything that anyone said at FDL or not, for all I know he is a racist, or maybe not) and people like you throw out the accusation “shows a lot about you”
So tell me Einstein, what does it say about me? It says a lot about you that you extrapolate something about me from my statement.
You can’t win for losing.
geg6
@D. Mason:
Yeah, you’re so put upon! White man is the most put upon creature ever in the history of the planet! Especially you, because you were so discriminated against when you didn’t get the promotion because YOUR BOSS DIDN’T THINK YOU CAPABLE OF HANDLING A MAJORITY AFRICAN AMERICAN WORKFORCE.
I wonder why he would think that?
El Tiburon
@Angry Black Lady:
That’s my point. Is it not possible for someone to misuse a phrase? I’m not trying to get all Sarah Palin-blood libel here, but is it not possible for someone to use a phrase incorrectly?
Again, I am not defending or excusing this particular situation, I neither have the time nor inclination to read it in its entirety and understand all of the components. (Yes, I am working).
But for it now to be FiredogLaKKKe and that FDL has a racism problem is fucking bullshit. I bet dollars to doughnuts that the particular person who wrote the offending post is not anything close to a racist. Maybe stupid, but not a racist.
Lawnguylander
@Marmot:
You’re right that the term wasn’t directed at Obama but at lefties. Are there no black lefties? In the mind of the fool that wrote the post there must not be or he’s lumping black lefties in with lefties of all other colors and calling them all “house niggers.” Which is it, is he denying the existence of black lefties or calling them “house niggers” if they support the Democratic party.
Oh, look, you also don’t see anything but white people when you think of lefties. Question withdrawn.
I can see why ruemara is describing what she/he feels as heartbreak when dealing with a lot of white liberals. You’re not breaking my heart here but you sure as fuck are embarrassing me.
IM
I had the some objection as Cole and almost did wrote on the original thread, but then was wise enough to shut up.
Using a diary to judge a website is nutpicking. If you really think FDL uses racist language, you need a front post for that. The moderation gives the diary some sort of approved by FDL, but that is still not enough.
ABL
@El Tiburon: and my point is that the term “house nigger” is not subject to misuse.
it should be readily apparent that the term is offensive.
IM
Otherwise, this thread is quite entertaining. The story so far:
Eemom thinks John Cole is the house slave of evil queen hamsher
matoko_chan thinks John Cole is a cudlip to EDK.
geg6
@El Tiburon:
Um, did you read the previous thread? The one where he blames all the black people he works with who don’t like him on his not getting a promotion?
Yeah. Definitely not a racist. Definitely.
Omnes Omnibus
@ABL: I think that, in general, the term is offensive and anyone who uses it knows it. Malcolm X certainly intended that umbrage should be taken when he used it. I also think that in the context of the particular FDL piece, the writer could not but have known that it was an offensive term and, moreover, intended to use it as such.
Josie
@John Cole – Thanks ever so much for opening up another circular discussion about a subject which seems to invite irrational lines of reasoning. We each come at it from our own lived experience, and those experiences are so different that I’m not sure we could ever reach consensus. I would hope that our guiding motivation might be something like the golden rule. Maybe that is asking for too much. I still agree with ABL that a monitored discussion should be free of such language, asterisks or no.
sixers
@Omnes Omnibus:
Awesome rebuttal!
DougJ DougJson
@Angry Black Lady:
I think this house n***r thing is worse, in any case. People do weird stuff with illustrations that I don’t take too seriously, but writing is a bit different.
General Stuck
@D. Mason:
Enters the term “code talk” regarding, when considering intent of criticism for Obama. It has plausible deniability. It is not unlike Justice Potter Stewart’s remark concerning what constitutes “porn”, that he knows it when he sees it. When criticism does not comport with reality, upon some in depth quantitative and qualitative analysis, then it has to mean something else. The republicans provide the control, in that “the inadequate black man meme” is of their design, and they aren’t using it because they don’t see Obama as inadequate, they see him kicking their asses up one side and down the other with legislation successes.
edit – though there are always the caveats that many of these fine progressives don’t know what they are doing, being dumb as fenceposts, Still doesn’t excuse it, especially once it’s pointed out to them.
Nanette
@El Tiburon:
[emphasis mine]
But that’s the thing. What ABL is describing is not an isolated incident but a pattern of behavior. In fact, I emphasized the “now” portion of your comment because it’s been just a matter of fact on many non-white sites and among many non-white readers since 2006 that FireDogLake is just racist. FDL doesn’t have as many (or any, as far as I know) high profile racist implosions as they did then (from Blackface Joe to castigating a Black woman who dared to confront Hamsher for talking about her “betters”, to just general bigotry… but that they tamped down the front page posts (or the immediate optics) in no way excuses what is allowed to run freely underneath.
Just like the fact that Tbogg and Marci and DDay may be worth reading sometimes also does not excuse it.
tomvox1
Am I nuts or didn’t FDL used to (until recently) have a top bar blog that was all into conspiracy theories about how Jews control the world and the aliens are coming??? I wanna say “Avatar” or something…
ABL
@MoZeu: I’ve written multiple posts about the racism among the diarists and commenters at FDL (before I started posting over here). Other commenters in this and yesterday’s thread have mentioned that they are offended by the language and dogwhistles at FDL. This is not an isolated incident. I’ve directed my criticism directly at Jane. She has been nonresponsive (while calling me one of John’s lackeys, of course because heaven forbid I have any independent thought). Moreover, that type of language continues to appear on FDL.
At what point is one required to take responsibility for the offensive language that permeates one’s blog? It doesn’t matter to me that, like Kos, FDL is a teeming mass of personal diaries. They are still FDL diaries and are held to some sort of standard (as linked by Moderator Rayne) but not to the standard of “don’t use the word nigger” (THAT WORD) despite proclaiming that FDL doesn’t “use THAT word.” They do use that word; they just try to lessen the blow by slapping some asterisks in there.
Why is it my job to prove that the use of racially offensive language is pervasive enough to deem FDL racist? Why isn’t it her job to keep her diarists and commenters in line or, at the very least, fire her moderators and open up the blog to real debate?
Why is it that those who read FDL come over here to defend the use of that language, or to debate it? Because they don’t get that sort of debate over there because of the moderation of all contrary views. I imagine when they are confronted with someone who doesn’t agree with them (like the one commenter who got shouted down and called a member of the Word Police), it must be like a slap in the face to them.
It’s really not that hard to understand: Don’t say nigger. There are plenty of other word choices.
And to those who say “Well, don’t read FDL if you don’t like it,” I say “No. I will read it and I will call it out.” FDL isn’t some insignificant blog. And when the overlord of that blog continually appears on MSNBC and is one-note in her criticism of All Things Obama, while continuing to allow racially charged language and posts to appear on her blog, she is fomenting racism — not supporting or condoning — fomenting. She may not be racist, but at best, she doesn’t care that the use of that language is offensive. That, in and of itself, is offensive.
If I ever used the word “cunt” or even worse “white cunts” to describe white women, do you think John wouldn’t send me an email telling me to watch my mouth? Do you think John wouldn’t take down the post or change the language — change it, not just asterisk it? And if he didn’t, do you think that women and/or white women juicers would be wrong in their outrage?
The diarist told me to ask John whether or not John thought the diarist is racist. That is patently absurd. First, I didn’t call him racist (I said he used racist language) and second, WTF? “Go ask that white guy whether or not I’m racist. He’ll be the decider.” Really?
I’m ashamed at and embarrassed for some of you. We’re supposed to be liberals, goddamnit. What is so hard about not using the fucking term “house nigger”? I can’t believe some of you don’t see a problem with the language, and I’m shocked that some of you are actually defending it.
It truly is shameful.
eemom
@tomvox1:
you may mean Siun, but there are plenty of others like that over there. As I noted last night, when it comes to anti-Semitism they don’t even bother with asterisks.
Bruce (formerly Steve S.)
Unfair, yes, and other things. For instance, one would think that in a country where a potentially horrific terror attack against a King Day parade was just thwarted you wouldn’t want to waste a lot of time trolling the back pages of FDL for potentially insensitive racial remarks. It’s good to see that ABL’s sense of proportion is improving and she’s turned her sights (pardon the metaphor) on Rick Santorum.
There’s racism that is probably accidental, perhaps negligent, and relegated to some blog somewhere. There’s institutional racism expressed openly by relatively powerful people. And there’s racism that seeks to murder large numbers of people. If our Rage-o-Meter starts at 10 for the first of these I don’t know where it’s supposed to go from there.
All that said, one of my bedrock principles is that everybody has a right to be offended by whatever he or she finds offensive. My hope, though, is that we attempt to keep our sense of proportion. I mean, c’mon, somebody just tried to murder dozens of children at a celebration of Dr. King. Seriously, the FBI is saying this just happened. For real.
eemom
@ABL:
Yup.
Relatedly, though not in the same league, the unabashed pointing and snickering at the “weird” Native American “medicine man or whatever he was” at the Tucson event. To which no one other than me said a fucking word until about 200 comments in.
MoonBatista
@ABL: Has Jane never listened to Jay Smooth? And what exactly, would be her response if someone told her to ask, say, Lawrence O’Donnell if Trent Franks is an idiot after Jane complained of his idiocy? I suspect a description of her response could include “explosive.”
Nutella
@les:
You need to re-install the pie filter. Cleek has updated it to work with the new blog format.
wmd
Thinking back I did have part of a comment disappeared at FDL – I’d said some asshat was a good argument for legalizing 203rd trimester abortion, which goes against their non-violence policy in spirit. I’ve seen some comments that were vile name calling disappear as well.
They accept some level of racist or racially insensitive or what ever the fuck you want to call it stuff.
Strenuous disagreement on substance has not been deleted there as far as I know. During a day long heated discussion in comments with Jane I never had a comment moderated. The mods stood up for me when Jane asked them to ban me. YMMV of course.
Felanius Kootea (formerly Salt and freshly ground black people)
@Lawnguylander: Ahh. I was wondering whether anyone else would catch that.
On a slightly different note, I despise Condoleezza Rice but decide to read her recent memoir. One section that is still rattling around my head is her reason for becoming a Republican rather than a Democrat: “I gave an answer that came directly from my experience with the many forms racism can take. ‘I would rather be ignored than patronized.’ … I hated identity politics and the self-satisfied people who assumed that they were free of prejudice when, in fact, they too could not see beyond color to the individual.”
I still despise Condoleezza but I can see a certain weird logic to her decision. She states clearly in her memoir that she prefers blatant in-your-face racism to subtle, less-explicit forms of it because the former is easier to confront.
asiangrrlMN
@ABL: Ditto this.
@gwangung: One hundred percent with you on this one as well. That’s why this shit can be infuriating as well. Dealing with the big shit is bad enough. To have someone casually throw out the term house nigger, defend it, and have other people defend it when it’s repeatedly pointed out by people who are affected by it that it’s offensive, yeah, it can make one’s head all ‘splodey.
If they moderate comments, then they own what is allowed to stand.
@El Tiburon: Yes it does. There is no way to use a term like house nigger or plain nigger without being offensive. If you can’t see that, you are looking at things through the eyes of privilege. It is not incumbent upon people of color to school you on why it’s not proper to call anyone A DAMN NIGGER. Why it is a racist action to call someone a damn nigger.
For all the people, mostly white males, complaining about the oversensitivity of ABL on this issue, can you take a step back and look at what the people of color are telling you in this thread? Or is that too threatening? It is not acceptable to call someone a nigger. Full-fucking stop. With the history of the usage of the word in this country, it just isn’t. If you really feel the need to defend that or to say it’s reverse racism or inconsequential or minor or whatever, then maybe you need to look in the mirror because that shit is fucking old.
It’s irritating when I see people acting out their white privilege if they are from the right–irritating, but expected. When people from the left do it, it’s downright infuriating–and as ruemara said, heartbreaking.
daveNYC
I’d go along with that, except that I don’t really remember her speaking out against racism, and that anyone who is that overtly racist isn’t going to have their mind changed until they’re standing in front of St. Peter (and not even then most likely).
Vescoe P. Spurnwick (formerly Milmont Glapper (formerly Brisbane Belff (formerly G. Nelson Buttnergle (formerly Mumphrey (formerly Renfrew Squeevil (formerly Mumphrey Oddison Yamm (formerly Mumphrey O. Yamm (formerly Mumphrey))))))))
I’ve lost track by now how many different fights are going on here; and I don’t really want to wade in and begin another one. But, ahh, what the hell.
Here’s my take: as a white guy, I don’t get to say what black people are entitled to feel offended by. That’s just all there is to it. It isn’t up to me. If I wake up tomorrow, and the world has turned upside down and inside out, and my forebears are the the ones who had been enslaved for 250 years of this country’s history, and then further enslaved in all but name for another 100 years in a damned big chunk of this country, and beaten and lynched without another thought for all those years, and black people had been the oppressors, then, and only then, would I have some business choosing what’s offensive and what isn’t. But until that magical day should come to pass, then I don’t get to tell black people that this epithet isn’t offensive because blah blah blah, but that epithet is, and it’s all right to be upset about it.
Now, I know that some people are going to feel put upon by this. They’re going to say, “I never oppressed any black people. I never owned slaves. I don’t even have a family history of slave ownership. Whay can’t I say x-y-z, if I don’t mean it to be offensive, if I don’t mean it as an attack? Chris Rock uses that word all the time!”
And maybe they have a point, up to a point. And the point is: No, strictly speaking, it maybe isn’t fair that we white people can’t just say whatever the hell we feel like and not get yelled at if we don’t mean it in a bad way, if we really aren’t racists. But, guess what? The marginal unfairness of this situation hardly registers when held up aginst the unfairnesses black Americans have had to deal with for 400 years here, and the unfairnesses they still deal with here today. And, no, black people don’t face nearly the institutional disadvantages today that they had 50 years ago or 150 years ago or 250 years ago. But American society still shoves a whole hell of a lot more shit in their faces than it does in mine. So, all in all, as unfair as it might be that I can’t say That Word whenever I feel like it, even as Chris Rock can without anybody jumping all over him, well, I’m just going to have to deal with that.
And until far more powerful group force feeds as much shit to white people collectively, as often and for as long a stretch of history, as white America has force fed shit to black Americans, then I think the least we can do is to respect black people when they say, “You know, that word offends me, and I wish you’d stop using it.”
The answer to that is not, or should not be, “Well, I’m not a racist!” Or, “Well, why don’t you lighten up?” Or, “Well, people have been saying that forever. Why do you get all pissy about it now?” Or, “Well, I hear black people say that all the time! Why can’t I say it, too? This sucks! This isn’t fair!”
Instead, when a black person says, “Hey, I find that word to be deeply hurtful,” why don’t we all try saying something along the lines of, “Oh, damn, I’m sorry. That was really thoughtless of me. I won’t use it any more. I hope you can forgive me.” And then, just don’t say or write it anymore.
BruceFromOhio
This thread is an instant classic. Mockery, witticism, defense and offense, a new tagline, lessons in feedlot terminology and biology, and cleeks new pie filter.
Good times, man, good times.
N W Barcus
I think this discussion has been very interesting.
First, this blog does moderate, at least in my experience. Though of course if you are able to read this then that’s a data point against me.
Second, it is evident that only one black person actually writes here (and kudos for making her a full-fledged poster), or if there are others among the commenters they don’t identify themselves as such for some reason. That reason could be that they don’t hold with identity politics (an entirely principled position), or perhaps they feel it’s too easy to get caught in the crossfire on topics like this.
Obviously eradicating racism from US society will, absent genocide, require mainstream white society to change, so it’s cool that y’all can get so het up about it. Ms ABL may be angry, but it doesn’t look like she’s much different in that respect from the rest of you. Otoh, none of you are particularly representin’, if you know what I mean, anything but carte blanche.
DougJ DougJson
@N W Barcus:
We don’t moderate much. The first comment goes into moderation and then once you’re out, you’re free to do as you please, within reason.
DougJ DougJson
@Felanius Kootea (formerly Salt and freshly ground black people):
Condi may very well be the person who kept us out of Iran. It doesn’t excuse everything else she did, but it’s a point in her favor, IMHO.
Tsulagi
@DougJ DougJson:
No, but the overlord spam filter wields the moderation club with willful unfettered abandon.
What’s with the DougJ DougJson? You trying to follow Erick Erickson? Well, if you can organize the ladies here into a BJ Strike Force I’m on board.
Nellcote
@matoko_chan:
Aside from whatever point you were originally trying to make, you made me google feedlot drench which was quite illuminating. In the future I will be more aware of sources of manure for the garden. So thank you.
Uncle Clarence Thomas
.
.
Only balloonbaggers could convince themselves that Malcolm X was an anti-Black racist.
.
.
matoko_chan
cleek could you make a special version of the filter just for meh?
i want all the cudlips just to be peacefully lowing instead of tonguing EDK and shoving their virtual snouts into my hero Julian Assanges crotch.
matoko_chan
@IM:
NO! i think Cole is carrying water for EDK by giving him a front page slot.
that makes Cole a gunga, not a cudlip or a house slave.
/giggles behind hand
Kscoyote
Given the fact that President Obama’s supporters ARE largely BLACK, LATINO, AND NATIVE AMERICAN with a MAJORITY of ASIANS, he called us ALL HOUSE NIGGERS.
FUCK ANYONE, who condones the USE of the term, and the SUBTEXT of what he said.
PERIOD.
BruceFromOhio
@Tsulagi:
I support this also. Enthusiastically.
El Tiburon
@asiangrrlMN:
To use an ABLism, go fuck yourself sideways and front ways. I never said or in any way insinuated anything like that. So, seriously, go fuck yourself. Learn how to read or something.
Funny how a white male like me (of privilege no less) can’t have a discussion about race issues without getting this type of unwarranted shit thrown in his face. You see what you want to see. That we may disagree or have differing viewpoints doesn’t give you the right. If that commenter called someone a nigger, shame on them. I have already stated I don’t know exactly what happened and I am not defending nor excusing anyone. My suspicion is that they did not call anyone a nigger, but made a chose an unfortunate expression. If I’m wrong, so be it.
But I never said it was okay to call someone a nigger.
El Tiburon
@ABL:
Yeah, I don’t think he misused the term. Bit, in my reading, he was not calling anyone a house nigger per se, he was using the term to try and make a point. Was it in-artful, stupid and ill-advised? Perhaps. But I believe he was using it to try and illustrate a larger point.
What about the term ‘uncle tom’? Is that derogatory to use? To be honest I don’t know. Can you use it if trying to make some larger point?
N W Barcus
For what it’s worth, last night I watched a broadcast (on one of the new repeats-only digital subchannels, Antenna TV) of an episode of Sanford and Son from around 1974 where Redd Foxx said the word “nigger” — no bleep or deletion from the soundtrack — but apparently had to substitute “witch” for “bitch”. As far as I can tell in 2010 the situation is reversed.
An invocation of Lenny Bruce’s routine on the subject would probably prove useful.