I’m a sucker for news stories like this:
Few visitors make their way past the cactus garden and into the dark ranch-style home where Randy and Amy Loughner have spent much time grieving alone. The rampage in which their troubled 22-year-old son is accused opened a fault line between them and the rest of this recovering city.
But beyond Tucson, two people who have never met the Loughners are now seeking them out, and others are likely to follow.
When Jared L. Loughner was identified as the gunman who shot 19 people here two Saturdays ago, his parents joined a circle whose membership is a curse: the kin of those who have gone on killing sprees. Now, others in this circle of relatives are beginning to issue invitations to the Loughners.
David Kaczynski, brother of Theodore J. Kaczynski, the Unabomber, left a message with Mr. Loughner’s public defender offering his ear if the parents wanted to talk to “someone with a similar experience,” he recalled.
Robert P. Hyde of Albuquerque had the same instinct. The brother of a mentally ill man who killed five people, two of them police officers, Mr. Hyde looked up the Loughners’ address and mailed them a letter inviting them to contact him. The gist of his letter, Mr. Hyde said by phone, was that “what happened is not your fault.”
After killing sprees in American towns and cities, the relatives of the gunmen face the intense scrutiny of neighbors who wonder how far the apple fell from the tree, or if the home environment was abusive, shaping a killer. Grief from these relatives can provoke a complex reaction as the outside world ponders whether they are victims in their own right, or the gunman’s enablers, or both.
While the actual victims of crimes and their relatives “have people pulling for them,” Mr. Hyde said, “we on the other side don’t want to even broach that subject. I will never say, ‘I lost my brother, too — I’ll never go fishing with him again.’
“It would look cold and callous,” he added. “People don’t understand. And you don’t want to offend anybody.”
So, he concluded, “you just suck it up.”
I can’t imagine what that must be like for a mother, to see her little baby boy as a murderer.
flitterbic
I can’t either. As a father of two under the age of 7, I spend a lot of time thinking about the people they will become – limitless possible paths. Even so, a few minutes watching Locked Up or reading an article like this and a thought can’t help to slip through saying, limitless paths means a wrong one is possible.
madmommy
How awful this must be for the families of the perpetrators of these sorts of crimes. There is still such a stigma in America about mental illness. Most would not blame the parents if their child got cancer or leukemia. But when someone snaps and commits such a horrific act, too many point fingers first at the parents. Then throw in the utter dearth of good care and treatment for mental illness and the tragedies will continue to happen.
WereBear
It’s really tough. My oldest brother has untreated PTSD stemming from his Marine service, I think. He now lives with his loony wife out West; fanatical Christian, with no friends, enmeshed in the web of her hillbilly grifter family, who is reduced to going out back and breaking 2 x 4’s with his bare hands to redirect the stress; probably still drinking.
I feel so sorry for him. I’m appalled at what he has become. We successfully got him away from her, installed him near family, got him a great job; the divorce was final, had him lined up with a lovely Christian girl.
But he couldn’t make it over the hump into the new life we had lovingly crafted; and off he fled, back into the Slough of Despond.
SteveinSC
Listen, I’ve got a 36 year old and a 32 year old and Cole, you don’t know how right you are. A child is brought into the world on the throw of the genetic dice. The parents cannot control the outcome any more than they can the tides. You can bend the tree a bit, but you cannot really change how it will grow. I am glad there is such a support community, but I had never heard a story like this.
Phyllis
Much like being widowed*, it’s a club you don’t want to join. But what saves you, both fortunately and unfortunately, is that there are others out there who have already joined and who do know how you feel.
*Unlike the clods who say things like ‘I was divorced last year, I know exactly how you feel’. No you don’t, you twit.
aimai
I agree. I’ve got two daughters, still in their early teens–its bad enough looking at the illnesses and psychological problems which you know can beset teens and people in their twenties. But imagining that they could hurt someone else–kill someone else? That’s impossible.
But I’m reminded of a line from a book by Mary Renault. The narrator, a young man whose father is old, bitter, and cruel stumbles across a statue of his father as a young man and sees how beautiful he was in his youth. He weeps and the priest at the temple tries to comfort him by saying “Old age and death come to us all, but the god’s have so ordained it that they come to a different person, one who is prepared for it (ie one who is older or sick or aware, in some way, of his own mortality.) Loughner’s parents, David Kaczyniski, weren’t entirely taken by surprise by this. They all knew that something was terribly wrong with their loved one. I’m not saying that to accuse them or because I mean they could have stopped it. I’m just saying I pray that that’s true for me–that the sorrows that are to come happen to a “different woman” who is prepared, in some way.
aimai
kerFuFFler
Yeah, it is mightily unpleasant for them (the Loughners) that their little boy became a murderer, but the fact remains that they failed to get him psychiatric counseling when he clearly needed it. This was not a borderline case; the university administrators told the parents flat out that their son was too troubled to be on campus, and that he needed help. That was months ago. Perhaps it is rude to point it out, but it is the truth. The parents share some blame in this mess for living in a state of denial, and they know it.
Since denial is so common among people with things going seriously wrong with their kids, perhaps the onus on getting a student help should lie with the school in the future. A law that forces schools to take certain actions actually frees them up to do right without so many fears of lawsuits.
Cat Lady
I can’t imagine what they’re going through, with no end in sight, ever. Ugh. What’s kind of amazing to me though is that there isn’t way more of this. Raising my twenty-something daughters really opened my eyes to the challenges this pernicious, consumerist, instant gratification, over sexualized, coarse and violent culture provides to kids. You have to be able to cut through all of that bullshit, but it’s really not easy. You need support, and if you don’t have a family all on the same page, you’re not getting it from your TV, in front of which a lot of kids are plunked all day. And that’s assuming your kids don’t have physical or cognitive difficulties.
JPL
Parents cannot force an adult son to get counseling. AZ state law does allow to have someone committed involuntary though and for whatever reason the parents did not choose this approach. At this point in time, they have to be second guessing themselves and suffering for all the victims.
I have no idea about their finances but I doubt that Mrs. Loughner has returned to work. If it were me, I’m not sure that I’d leave the house.
JPL
One thing I wanted to add was the parents might have encouraged their son to speak to a counselor. That is different from having him committed. Involuntary commitment is temporary. We don’t know what happened behind their doors.
Ed in NJ
I have sympathy for the siblings of the killers mentioned in the article, because they were not responsible for them. But I don’t think I’m ready to absolve the Loughner’s of blame just yet.
Svensker
We have no idea what this family was like. Perhaps the parents have been trying to get help for their son for years. Perhaps the family home has been filled with fighting and tears because of this child’s problems, for years. Perhaps one or both of the parents also has some mental issues themselves (I know a number of families where this is the case and others where it isn’t) and the family has been unable to deal with the problem coherently.
This is not the time or place to judge them. But, oh God, as a parent my heart breaks for these people. I can’t come close to imagining their suffering now. My son, my son.
madmommy
It’s easy to say what his parents should have done and when they should have done it. The fact is that it is damned difficult getting and affording treatment for mental illness. Add to the mix is you’re living in a state that has cut services to the bone and it’s a recipe for disaster. Unless you’re independently wealthy you’re facing a real uphill battle.
RoonieRoo
Those of you who are so ready to blame the parents for not getting him help, have you personally had a child/spouse/sibling with severe mental illness? Have you faced having to figure out how to bend the law to get them help?
I’m guessing you haven’t. I personally have and my husband is now dead due to the way the laws work that prevented me from getting that help.
So, unless you have personally gone through it. Shut up.
Paul in KY
I do have sympathy for Mr. Kaczynski (and he was instrumental in catching his brother). As the above poster mentioned, I’m not absolving the parents yet.
Need to get more info.
RoonieRoo
Thank you Cole for publishing this.
Svensker
@RoonieRoo:
What you said.
Ija
Is it our duty or responsibility as a society to absolve or not absolve the parents? Unless you are the friends and family members of the victims who are directly affected by the killings, it seems somehow, I don’t know, presumptuous? That’s not the right word. I don’t know what the right word is. It doesn’t seem quite right, somehow.
Emma
I hate the judgmental “I’m not ready to absolve them of blame” bull. Doesn’t all that righteous smugness choke you when you lie down to sleep?
News flash: your judgment is about as important as spit on a sidewalk. Especially when it’s so hideously uninformed. You know nothing about that family, not to mention that often ignored fact that saints have come from the worst of circumstances and murderers from the best. Find your human kindness and use it. If you’re conscious that there’s a decent chance that terrible things could happen to you, realize that some day you’re going to need some stranger’s kindness yourself.
PTirebiter
No, we cannot really imagine it and that’s probably a good thing. In 1991, my 17year old daughter died in a car accident. Sure, I worried and wondered throughout her life, but had I been capable of really imagining something like that, I don’t think I would have chanced having children. Of course having had and known her, I would still take the 17 years, even with the outcome. I feel for the parents of the man, but it would be impossible for me to look at all the pictures of the nine year old Christina. Christ, what a heartache for all involved.
Paul in KY
@Emma: No, my ‘righteous smugness’ go’s to sleep fine. Thanks for asking.
The fact that I am currently uninformed about the family dynamics is why I personally am ‘not ready to absolve them of blame’.
I have no illusions about the worth of my judgement, or yours, for that matter.
kerFuFFler
When I was in college, a housemate in our co-op started showing signs of schizophrenia toward the end of his senior year. Several of us walked him over to health services and made sure he got the help he needed until his parents could get into town. It was frightening to see this happen to a friend, but it helped that we got him help right away before his illness destroyed his trust in his friends.
And believe me, I’ll breathe a sigh of relief when my kids pass the age when the onset of schizophrenia is most likely.
I know that we don’t have all the details of what had happened in this case, but if his parents had been trying to get their son help, and AZ law made it impossible, I think they would have put that story out there already.
David Fud
@Paul in KY: I’m curious why you think you have any standing to blame, or not. Judge not, and all that, right? Or not?
I really am curious why you seem to think it is important that you have some sort of say in their judgment and implicitly in their punishment (i.e., shunning, blame, etc.).
Tim
I don’t automatically buy the line that Loughner’s killing spree, and the years-long formation of his personality problems that may have led to that spree, are not indirectly to some degree the fault of the parents. Nor do I automatically reject that premise.
Perhaps they were monstrously cruel, or abusive, or neglectful, or stupid, or willfully oblivious like most Americans…perhaps they weren’t. Perhaps they were perfect parents and had nothing at all to do with Loughner’s behavior. Perhaps they are monsters.
Perhaps we could wait until a lot more information comes out before venturing an opinion and going all emo.
I have seen so many idiots and fools raise kids in the most appallingly neglectful ways that I assume nothing is beyond the pale.
Violet
@RoonieRoo:
Absolutely true. Unless you’ve been there dealing with the mental health of a loved one, you don’t know.
Paul in KY
@David Fud: Dave, I can’t read your second sentence completely. I’m doomed to use IE & the 2007 weblog award winner is blocking it. When the BJ stuff is messed up for us IE users, it’s really messed up.
IMO, anyone has standing to blame or not blame in this tragedy. A young person wasted 6 of my fellow citizens & crippled a few more. Could have been me or one of my loved ones who was murdered.
I don’t think it is important (my judgement). I was just making a flippant comment & then was slagged by Emma & then I gave my opinion on her opinion (as I can do).
If the parents did have something to do with their kid turning out to be a murderous maniac (and they could have), then ‘shunning’ is a small price to pay, IMO.
Does that answer your question?
kerFuFFler
Just to be clear, the point of understanding the parents’ role in this tragedy is not to make them feel pain or shame, but to get other people to recognize how important it is for them to assist people with severe psychiatric disorders in getting help. The point is to get people to recognize the heavy price that can come from living in a state of denial. The point is to make people realize that there is a potential tragedy greater than having their child succumb to mental illness, and that is to leave the mental illness untreated.
Svensker
@kerFuFFler:
And when I was in college, my fiance showed signs of schizophrenia and his parents got him help. He was in therapy for years and in and out of mental institutions, only the best plenty of money could buy and with two very loving and wonderful parents. And he still put a bullet through his head when he couldn’t stop the demons.
Or how about the shizophrenic woman who attends the Quaker church in NJ where we used to attend who is in and out of mental institutions, won’t take her meds, and periodically gets picked up by the cops for making threats and being very aggressive. Thank God she doesn’t have a gun. Her family has been trying to get her help for decades, but what is being done (periodic arrests, periodic hospitalization) is all that can be done. If she were to go off on someone, would you blame her family, too?
Like RonnieRoo said, YOU try to deal with someone crazy for a few years, then come back and tell us about who should be judged.
efroh
Another thoughtful read is this essay by the mother of one of the Columbine Killers, Susan Klebold. I feel awful for her and the parents of other murderers. At the same time I find it difficult to not wonder how they either could not see what was going on with their children or, if they did see, could not/would not make it their number one priority to get them into treatment. I know this is judgmental of me, but I can’t help but wonder.
kerFuFFler
@Svensker:
Yes, even with help there is not necessarily a happy ending. But does that mean you think it is not even worth trying to avert disaster by getting people help?
I’m just saying that I think it is a good thing if people ask themselves, “Could I live with myself if my troubled child hurt someone, and I had not tried to prevent it?” If the answer is “no”, then perhaps more people will take a proactive stance. Of course we will never be able to count the number of disasters averted, but we will be able to live with ourselves because we know we did our best.
Violet
@Svensker:
This is how a friend of mine who developed schizophrenia behaved. Didn’t like how she felt on the meds so would quit taking them. Also, when she took them she thought she was “fine” and “didn’t need them” so would quit for that reason too. Extraordinarily difficult for her family. Her family had money and resources and did their best to help her, but there is only so much the family can do.
She would just vanish for periods of time. The family could only assume she was living on the street. And then she’d show up on one of their doorsteps. They’d help her get help, she’d be okay for a bit and then it would all start over.
When she finally died (another awful situation and one I won’t go into) it was tragic and also a relief in many ways. There is only so much that can be done. Schizophrenia is a horrible, tragic disease, like so many mental health diseases are.
Ija
@kerFuFFler:
I agree with that 100%, but I don’t think everybody sees it that way (including some people in this thread). Some people want to decide whether we should absolve the parents of blame, or shun them from polite society if we can’t absolve them.
David Fud
@Paul in KY: The only reason I care is that it is sort of the liberal equivalent of checking their countertops. Sort of a flash mob of online angst to attempt to understand and control something that we will likely never understand or control.
So, I guess if it makes you feel better, fine. But don’t expect it to truly solve anything or make anyone, including yourself, feel any better.
That’s all I’ve got on this topic.
PTirebiter
I don’t think much information is needed to heave a collective sigh for the human condition. I don’t equate a bit of honest empathy with our neighbors with “going all emo.”
Perhaps they were monstrously cruel, or abusive, or neglectful, or stupid, or willfully oblivious like most Americans
Or perhaps they were just humanly flawed individuals doing the best they could… like most Americans.
RoonieRoo
@efroh: You cannot see because you have not been there and all you know is the vision of the aftermath.
You have not listened to a brilliant man give accounting lectures interspersed with statements that clients/students just think are him being funny while you, and only you, know is a sign that he is about to have a psychotic break.
You have not had the experience of begging doctors and law enforcement to help you head off this break and have them just think you are the crazy wife because he sounds perfectly normal to them. I mean he’s freaking brilliant and aren’t all brilliant people just a little off in their humor?
Then you get to look at what happens after the break and wonder why on earth didn’t the wife do more. I mean surely he must have shown signs.
So yes, it is judgmental of you and you have no clue what you are talking about.
WereBear
Klebold was troubled, but under the tutelage of the psychopathic Harris, he was able to cloak it well; and Harris, of course, was a master at it.
That’s how it happens.
Paul in KY
@Svensker: I’m not ready to diagnose Mr. Loughner as crazy.
He could be just one twisted, evil little bastard that decided he was going to make everyone notice him & get back at people he despised all in one fell swoop. He might have been planning on offing himself at the end, but those heros managed to stop him before he got the chance.
Or he could be a schitzophrenic sufferer. Not enough info at the present time to make a determination (not a ‘judgement’).
Paul in KY
@David Fud: No problem. Have a nice day!
wonkie
I have a client who has a son who is now a street person. She has a whole wallof photos of him from b abyhood, thrugh little boy, through the teens and then the photos stop.
The progression is there: the baby tht looks like every baby, the brightfaced sweet child gazing optimistically at the camera, the slightly defensive young teen tryng to look cool, the flat blank eyed older teen…
She is a kind, friendly, normal person, phycially disabled and prone to clinical depression, but takes her meds, manages her life repsonsibly. You can look at any life and find disfuction. You can look at any parents and put to gether a rationale for why their kids is a fuckup.
Sometimes kids are fuckups because of the parenting they experienced. But sometimes parenting has nothing to do with it.
Wheneer i look at those pictures on the wall I feel like crying for my client, fo how she has suffered over the years as her brighht sweet child turned into a drunken beggar on the corner.
Parenting is hard and risky. I don’t feel like piling on the parents of the Tucson shooter.
RoonieRoo
@Paul in KY: You know, I agree with you. We really don’t know. I just wish people would be like you and admit that as opposed to assuming this is a result of schizophrenia and, therefore, why didn’t the family/friends stop this horror!
Tim
A lot of commenters on this thread enjoy intentionally confusing the concept of ASSESSMENT with the concept of JUDGEMENT, and then lashing out in a defensive way.
If that victimized, self righteous pose helps you feel better about something you’ve been thru, by all means have at it. It won’t change anything, but there ya go…
jcricket
I do deeply empathize with the innocent family members (barring those situations when the family members are enabling the crazy). I can’t even imagine finding out my dad was the Green River Killer, or my wife was some kind of “angel of death” at the hospital. Or if my kid, who’d struggled with mental illness, finally succumbed to the dark side and went on a shooting rampage.
I know this is horrible, but I can see why Madoff’s son, who was the whistleblower, killed himself. He was probably depressed already, but living with the thought of his dad fleecing all those old people and charities was just too much.
Tragedy all around.
Ija
@Tim:
Maybe they wouldn’t feel so victimized and self-righteous if there are less judgmental strangers who know nothing about the real situation who like to pretend they just want to “assess”.
Svensker
@Tim:
You know, you really are an ass.
Tim
@Ija:
Maybe they wouldn’t feel so victimized and self-righteous if there are less judgmental strangers who know nothing about the real situation who like to pretend they just want to “assess”.
Ija: why is it so important to you to assume that some of us are judging rather than assessing. Do you not understand the difference?
To me, assessment involves understanding the events and circumstances and interactions surrounding an event or thing, and how it all might have come together. We all assess situations and people all day long.
Judging involves concepts like deciding the relative value or worth of the people involved, and holding oneself to be superior to them. I don’t see anyone here doing that; why would you assume so?
Tim
@Svensker:
That is a really convincing argument. And typical of you, Sphinchter. I consider it a compliment of sorts to be called an “ass” by self righteous know it alls such as yourself.
Damned at Random
I thought about the parents early in this story as well. In my imagination, they watched their son slowly change- grades falling, friends who no longer visited or called, and finally suspension from college. And like I did when my stepdaughter was in an adolescent funk, they suggested activities- “lets go to a movie, take the dog for a walk…” Then, one day he volunteered for the literacy fair and that picture of their smiling son appeared in the paper – and they thought a corner had been turned. Maybe fantasized about him helping at the summer reading program…
Then they saw the continued deterioration and thought, “well, we can’t force him into psychiatric care, but we can keep him safe and off the street until he is lucid enough to realize he needs help.” After all, he wasn’t violent and how could you turn out your troubled child.
Sometimes there are only bad options and worse options. How do you return to anything like a normal life after your worse, unspoken fear becomes a reality?
Ija
@Tim:
To me, when people use words like “absolve” and “shunning”, assessment is not the first thing that comes to mind. Why do you think it is your fucking place to absolve or shun anyone if you are not judging?
Ed in NJ
@Emma:
Don’t let your reading comprehension get in the way of some righteous moralizing.
The article linked mentioned that Hyde’s letter to the Loughner’s stated “it’s not your fault”. My only point is that Mr. Hyde and others are being too quick to absolve them of blame. I’m not ready to do so.
It’s amazing to me how many people on this thread are admonishing others for “passing judgement” while doing so themselves. It’s something this whole site, actually the entire internet, does every minute of every day. But this situation is suddenly off-limits?
Ija
Here are the links to where the words are used so you don’t accuse me of making up things:
https://balloon-juice.com/2011/01/22/an-exclusive-group-you-dont-want-to-be-a-member-of/#comment-2386074
https://balloon-juice.com/2011/01/22/an-exclusive-group-you-dont-want-to-be-a-member-of/#comment-2386083
https://balloon-juice.com/2011/01/22/an-exclusive-group-you-dont-want-to-be-a-member-of/#comment-2386156
Paul in KY
@RoonieRoo: I’m very sorry for the Hell you have been through. I’ve never had to deal with any loved one being diagnosed schitzophrenic.
I can see you’ve had terrible pain. I’m sure I’ve never experienced anything like that.
Tim
@Ija:
To paraphrase Dan Akroyd: “Ija, you ignorant slut.” You are attributing the words of a different poster to me. Please refrain.
That said, absolution and shunning are important social tools, used to some degree and in varying fashions by all societies. The United States, unfortunately, being a sick society, does not shun mass murderers like George W Bush, for reasons beyond me.
Whatever: You’re still being incredibly, and unnecessarily, defensive here. Take a breath and put on your big girl panties. No one is judging YOU in this thread, and isn’t that really what your nasty attitude is all about?
Tim
Oh, also, and too: A deceased aunt of mine spent the greater part of her life in the throes and wreckage of schizophrenia; in and out of hospitals, on and off of meds, in and out of jails. I was a kid through almost all of that, but I know from what I have learned since that, HELL YES, my dad and her other siblings could have done MUCH more and better to deal with her situation, and they damn well should have. And if my aunt had ever killed or seriously hurt anyone, there would have been plenty of responsibility to go around.
Denial and shame are epic around the issue of mental illness in America.
I share this tidbit because certain posters in this thread think no one who hasn’t “been thru it” has standing to have an opinion on this topic. I think said posters are in error, but whatever; I know whereof I speak.
PTirebiter
@Tim:
Yea, Now that I look at again, I must be confusing assessment and judgement. It’s no wonder I’m feeling all emo, victimized and stuff. I long for your capacity to assess the world in such a rational, non judgmental manner.Your Zen like detachment and obvious inner strength and total self-reliance is the awesome. .
Ija
@Tim:
I am not attributing them to you, I’m explaining why some people in the thread, might exhibit what you call “victimized, self-righteous pose”. Because there are people using those words. There are people passing judgment.
BTW, attributing a word to some lame comedian doesn’t absolve you from the weight of the word. Thanks for calling me a slut, by the way. I’m sure you are going to say that I am attributing them wrongly to you, when actually it is the word of a comedian. But we all know you are the one who really wants to call me a slut, right? And big girl panties? Wow, pile it on, brother. The stink of the M word is very thick here. What, was I acting like a victim and being self-righteous? Do you want to call me out for not having balls, now?
Tim
@PTirebiter:
.
well, thanks for the compliment and I am honored that you wish to emulate me, but I’m not there yet. But I’m working on it, unlike most…
Tim
@Ija:
You’re heavily into victimhood today, aren’t you? enjoy.
I have been called an ass, bastard, cocksucker, asshole, douchebag, fuckwad and worse on BJ. I have lived to tell the tale. You will too.
Ummm…what’s the “M-word?” Is this another PC-speak code phrase I should know? Male? Man? Moonpie? Motherfucker?
Ija
@Tim:
This tells me pretty much what I need to know about you. And of course I’ll survive being called a slut. What, do you just assume that because I don’t have balls I’m going to go crying to Cole about it?
You know what, I’m done here. I’m sorry I derailed this reflective thread for some stupid feud with a guy who DOES NOT GET IT. Please forgive my intemperance.
Tim
@Ija:
Bye. You’re not interested in debate or reality; just in having your emotions validated.
Citizen Alan
Well, it rather depends on whether the murderer’s victims are the sort about which our society has any concern, doesn’t it. I imagine Barbara Bush remains quite proud of what her little baby boy has done.
Tim
@Citizen Alan:
AMEN
PTirebiter
@Tim:
Dude, you’re not even in the zip code yet.
In a post about empathy and gratitude, you chose to judge/assess the reactions and reflections of others. In a stroke, you managed to “assess” the unworthiness and culpability of the entire nation. Hilarity ensued with each additional example of your non-judgmental observations.
Indeed, but take heart, as sick as we may be, in your judgement, we no longer shame the son for his for the sins of his father, we no longer brand children at birth as being illegitimate or bastards and we’ve never tolerated honor killings. Again, I don’t equate empathy or gratitude with going all emo. Our inability to to anything concrete at the moment doesn’t negate the value of a community talking about it. Your attempts to derail and deflect the most asinine of your comments is the only example of anyone being overly defensive. You were being a judgmental ass and you decided to double down. Give it a rest.
Arclite
I think it’s even worse than that. You live with the boy for years, and you know he’s not right in the head. You try to get him help, but nothing comes of it. You try to manage the situation as best you can, but you’re not a psychologist. You have no professional training or knowledge of what is going on inside such a person. Then, when the tinderbox explodes you torture yourself that you should have done more, even though you weren’t equipped to and didn’t know how to.
Tim
@PTirebiter:
Oh for god’s sake, show me where I blamed anything on the parents, you fool. Show me where I didn’t blame anything on the parents.
My overall point is that the parents MAY be partly to blame, and they may not. But in this thread, being all gushy and shit, it is not allowed to even admit for the POSSIBILITY of parental culpability. By people who know no more than do I about the situation at hand.
And you, of course, spend your posted words reacting in righteous anger to words I never wrote.
The U.S. does NOT as a whole society, shun GWB, despite his mass murders, or soldiers and civilians. Yes, I think that indicates a SICK society. Sickness is a diagnosis, not a JUDGEMENT, idiot.
Learn to read through eyes unclouded by your self-imagined compassion.
Tim
@Arclite:
And do you know that this is what transpired in the Loughner family? links?
Dick Move
As painful as this story is to absorb, this thread and many others like it are pretty painful too. People with wildly differing opinions on an important matter, who very likely share a great deal of common ground as well, bitching at each other for appearing to represent some aspect of the situation that doesn’t place enough emphasis on the reader’s personal priorities. I’m no diplomat, just another dick on the internet. But… really?
Tim
@Dick Move:
come on, DM…without that aspect of BJ, what else is left? ;D
DA
Well this got nasty fast, but now I’m also curious what the M word is.
debbie
@ efroh:
Your page won’t load for me; however, I went to the same high school Susan did, graduating three years after she did. I can assure you she was a sweet and kind person, and certainly would have been a loving and caring mother. No one who’s known her believes she was an oblivious parent. I doubt she was unaware of her son’s trouble, but maybe she was just not equipped to understand what depths he’d sink to. Unless the kid’s torturing animals at an early age, what parent thinks their kid could do something so heinous?
elf
@Paul in KY:
Emma
Ed: As far as I’m concerned, you act like a jerk, you get called on it. It’s not like there’s not enough evidence.
Speculating is one thing. We’re all speculating. But “letting people on/off hooks” is not your flippin’ business unless it’s a personal matter.
and Paul, you “aren’t ready to absolve them of blame”. Lordy, who died and made you God?
YoRandom
I would ask anyone who blames the parents of children who do bad things to read this blog article.
I quote from the article
I guess my feeling on this is that regardless of parenting styles, some smart parents have stupid kids, some stupid parents have smart kids and some average parents have extraordinary kids. Explain that.
Paul in KY
@Emma: I think you take my absolving with more seriousness than I.
Since you seem to be in need: I absolve you for complaining about my absolving. Go in peace.
Paul in KY
@elf: He does look crazy in that one. He might have been purposefully trying to look crazy (if he was, then he succeeded in spades).
Edit: If I had to make a bet, crazy or not-crazy. I would bet ‘crazy’.
Ija
@DA:
We are talking about words like slut and big girl panties being bandied around. Take a guess what the M word is. I don’t want to spell it out, because heaven knows, I might be called a feminazi.
Tim
Masticator?
Elie
@JPL:
The reality is that receiving ” help ” is a complex thing.
Even if by incredible positive fate, you can get your kid a decent counselor or psychiatrist, this is not easy stuff to fix. Its years and years of talk therapy and drugs — some of which plain don’t work but it takes some time to figure that out cause the half life is so long on them. Others work, or work partially but have horrible side effects — your kid can go from acting out to zombie with little affect and impaired cognition…major changes in personality, cognition and functionality. Some may actually make your kid sicker .. but all of it takes time to sort out. Each person reacts individually and unpredictably to therapeutic approaches. There is no “wonder pill” or treatment approach.
All that time, he is on the streets or in your home making your miserable and in some instances, scared. The cops get to know your home and so do the neighbors — humiliation and mortification coupled with the anguish of not being able to help your kid… Unless he is a raving and obvious threat to others, (and he is also too old to treat as a child), he is free to come and go. Can a parent lock their child in their house? Well, no. And there is no where else to store them and no certainty anyway that this is a self limiting phase that they will somehow, magically “get over”, some day. Mostly, not. Mostly, chronically, heart breakingly uncertain pain and uncertainty for years and years. At least the Loughners know where their son is…
It IS sad that he didnt get help. But even if he had, its not clear at all that help would have been effective in enough time to change this outcome. Research in psychiatric illness seems much slower to progress than, say, medications to help erections.
There are thousands and thousands of paranoid schizophrenics and only a few actually act and become violent. We have very imperfect ways of determining who those are going to be. Lifelong schizophrenia, however, is hell and agony to the person with the conditions and all the loved ones who try to hang in their lives…There is no mercy for those loved ones. No lit candles, no special flags or stuffed teddy bears and flowers. They are social and psychological exiles… their loneliness and anguish must be unbearable.
We must control guns. That kid may have still been violent with a knife or some other tool but having a clip with 35 rounds and a Glock made the delusions of his illness immediately OUR problem with no possible buffer. It seems some sort of sickness to me that so many fight so hard for this “right” to bear arms — to allow these violent tools — handguns, to be so freely available. All under the premise that people really need to defend themselves everyday from some personal attack which is just around the corner and absolute in its certainty. Isnt that a kind of paranoia? Is the larger culture suffering from a milder form of the same thing that plagued young Loughner? What reality justifies having this available ? I just shake my head. No end in sight. No light, no reason about this coming anytime soon.