I’ve been trying to stay off the Chunky Bobo tip, but I read this earlier today and was so struck by the awfulness of the argument that I can’t stop thinking about it:
This is true on all the great issues of the day. No matter how many lives may be saved or lost because of health care policy, no lives will be saved forever, and every gain will be an infinitely modest hedge against the wasting power of disease and death. No matter the wisdom of our politicians or the sagacity of their economic advisors, no policy course can guarantee universal wealth or permanent economic growth. And no matter the temperature of our discourse, the state of our gun laws, or the quality of our mental health care, nothing human beings do can prevent the occasional madman from shooting up a crowded parking lot.
So we just fucking give up? We can’t all live forever so why does it matter what kind of health care we have?
This kind of reasoning is truly beneath contempt. When Erick Erickson writes that Obamacare will lead to death panels, I think he’s an idiot but maybe I should think, hey, at least we’re on the same side in terms of thinking that it would be very bad if people were being arbitrarily put to death…unlike Douthat who seems to think, eh, we all die anyway so why get upset?
This is what I find so infuriating about conservative would-be intellectuals, the constant fall back positions. We all start from the normal starting point for argument “I think my policy will work better than yours.” When conservatives’ arguments seem weaker, there’s always the Brooksian “the limits of human knowledge means we can’t say whose will work better”, which is pathetic enough. Douthat’s “who cares which policy worked better because no policy will achieve world peace and universal immortality” represents a new low, one that I never thought would be reached in my lifetime.
Douthat’s argument is frankly nihilistic. Say what you will about the tenets of RedState and Free Republic, at least it’s an ethos.
dopealope
Over the line, Smokey ….
Yutsano
Wow. He is so fantastically wrong on so many levels that it’s hard to even know where to begin. But here is a good start:
Umm, no. If one party is promising you that at least you won’t go broke because of health care costs and they are willing to even subsidize you to ensure that end and the other one isn’t, that’s a big difference that has an effect on a huge number of lives. Douthat isn’t being a nihilist, he’s being a fatalist, and that’s the very nature of conservative though. Nothing will change because it really will make no difference, so why even try? Fuck that noise.
SectarianSofa
What an utter dipshit. People will throw away his columns anyway, so why does he bother to write them?
Pooh
If it doesn’t matter, the fuck does he have a job for?
MikeJ
This argument form somebody who claims to dislike abortion?
morzer
I wonder whether we could persuade him that, since no meal can ever be perfect, he ought to just stop eating stat.
KG
This is actually a fairly common refrain among a certain segment of so-cons, particularly those with a Catholic background. It’s all about the fall of man and the futility of seeking perfection, which is why I left the Catholic Church. It’s also about the desire of those in power to maintain their power.
Lit3Bolt
Douthat’s mealy mouthed excuse making is par for fucking course in conservatism these days. Business is greedy, so why regulate? It’s a virtue instead! The reversal of morality to the opposite of common sense is an all too common Ivy League Villager trick designed to win points with “SERIOUS” crowds who like to nod sagely about every and all problems and do NOTHING else. We’ve always had murders throughout human history, so why get moralistic about barbarism? Human beings are nothing but mangy jackals, anyway! What a fucking tool who reveals his soulless and baseless thought process for the entire world. “I’ve read some human history, so I can make gross assumptions about the present and future for forevermore!! URUFF URUFF URUFF!!” *Douthat’s chins quiver as he laughs in glee*
rikyrah
that this clown has a column as the NYTimes is what’s ridiculous.
DougJ DougJson
@KG:
That is very interesting. I am going to ask my Catholic expert friend about this.
cat48
@dougj Well, Chunky is as reasonable as someone who says that “healthcare is irrelevant because it has no public option” and I have heard that from some.
Jack Bauer
Only from the mouth of someone truly religious, could something like that be said.
It’s reprehensible.
forked tongue
See, I knew this low would be reached in my lifetime. I knew it had been reached. I just didn’t think it would be emblazoned (with a byline!) on the editorial page of the New York Times.
Todd
Just to make the reference punch in the face clear.
DougJ DougJson
@forked tongue:
I’ve never heard it before. Wingers don’t talk this way, Bieber bless their souls.
Anonymous37
Wow, for once I agree with Ross Douthat!
Redshirt
If Doubthat’s soul is saved in the Grace of a Loving god, than what’s he waiting to get to Heaven for? Why stall?
Ija
Being on Chunky Bobo patrol will only make you crazier than being on McMegan patrol, DougJ. At least McMegan doesn’t scatter her posts with shallow reading of pseudo philosophical and religious work, attempting to impress us with the deepness of his thoughts. That said, I think left-leaning bloggers don’t call out Douthat enough. He seems to get more of a pass, either because he’s pals with a lot of them, or like you, most of them don’t read him that often.
gnomedad
Why do they want tax cuts if death will take everything away from them eventually?
DougJ DougJson
@Ija:
Although this argument of his is awful, I don’t object to him the way I do to a Bobo. He’s not a propagandist, he’s a true believer.
And I pick on Megan more because there are so many easy-to-correct errors in her work than anything else. It’s embarrassing that she has the position she does, but, again, she doesn’t scare me the way Bobo (or David Gergen) does.
sherifffruitfly
Uh….. nihilsm is the core tenet of conservatives.
The only novelty here is to see one of them come so close to explicitly admitting it.
Chris
There was a Calvin and Hobbes (I think) strip long ago in which mom tells Calvin to clean his room and he says “why bother, it will just get dirty again?” His mom points out: “why should I feed you, you’ll just get hungry again.”
J
So far as i can make out, the logical structure of the big D’s argument is: ‘from the cosmic perspective, nothing matters… so Liberals stink’ or ‘since it is very unlikely that any effort to improve things is likely to succeed perfectly, any effort to improve things at all is utopian and is wrong, so vote Republican (at least they’re trying to make things worse)! or something. It deserves a full blown Monty Python professor of logic parody–some of you may know it. But as bad as this argument is, it’s only part of what’s awful in this piece of his. The–so far as I can tell deliberate–misreading of Kinsley has got to be seen to be believed.
Drouse
My money is on “They’re just peasants and there’s more where they came from.”
Svensker
So Douthat doesn’t believe in Catholic or Christian charity, either? He doesn’t seem to have thought this thing out too well. How unusual.
MikeJ
@Chris: Joe Jackson.
FoxinSocks
He’s right! Let’s close the hospitals! Do away with vaccines! Band-aids are the adhesive-covered tools of the devil. We’re all going to die anyways, so just grab a beer, sit in your recliner, and watch some Price Is Right.
magurakurin
@dopealope:
We believe in nothing, DougJ. Nothing. And tomorrow we come back and we cut off your chonson.
PeakVT
Shorter Douchehat: we’re all going to die, so the poor should stop bothering the rich.
El Cid
No opinion article published in a newspaper can answer all the questions. No matter how much a writer writes, there will be more material left uncovered.
And no matter how wise a writer may think his columns are, it’s going to happen that some section of the readers will ignore his work or fail to be convinced, or even actively disagree.
It’s simply not rational for liberals to keep supporting this ancient notion of writing opinions several times a week to express some sort of arguments for the reader, since in the end it will accomplish next to nothing.
gnomedad
Douchehat has a great deal to be infinitely modest about.
Ija
@DougJ DougJson:
I actually think the true believers are scarier. Sure, the propagandists are probably more vile, but when the revolution comes, who are more likely to actually put people against the wall? Let me put it this way, it wouldn’t at all surprise me if true believer Ross secretly spends his free time protesting outside abortion clinics harassing the women going in.
jrg
There’s a good chance I’ll get sick sometime this year. I guess that means I should drink out of the fucking toilet. What a moron.
Capn America
Careful there DougJ, I think you just broke our National Moratorium on Uncivil Discourse by your implied Godwinning of Redstate and Free Republic.
PS Godwinning sounds like the kind of book Douchehat would enjoy.
Violet
The next time Chunky Bobo gets sick I hope he remembers his own words. No aspirin, no cold medicine, certainly no visits to doctors or hospitals. Heck, not even a glass of water because, hey, why do anything to feel better? You’re going to die anyway and there’s nothing we can do about it.
gnomedad
Why mock Douchehat; he’ll just write something stupid again.
forked tongue
@DougJ DougJson:
Well, this is the wisdom bestowed upon me by a well-off Republican family who aren’t really down with the “turn back to originalist constitutional principles and everything will be groovy” mindset but do need something to justify their indifference to the poor.
wasabi gasp
Shit Happens, Asswipe.
Parallel 5ths (Jewish Steel)
It’s like some kind of dreamy right wing zen. Or am I a butterfly merely dreaming I am chunky bobo?
Maybe this is the grad-school stuff ED Kain finds so contemptible?
burnspbesq
I hope the admissions staff at Harvard flagellate themselves on a daily basis for giving a slot to this idiot over someone who might have used that Harvard education to make something of himself or herself.
OT, and not at all related, the political shit is hitting the fan in Ireland. The Greens have withdrawn from the ruling coalition. There will be a no-confidence vote on Tuesday, and if the current Fianna Fail-led government goes down, the election that is scheduled for March will have to be brought forward.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ireland/8277258/Irelands-Green-Party-quit-coalition.html
It is odd to see Gerry Adams acting statesmanlike, but I could get used to it.
GregB
The assheads are turning. They turn in cluster fucks. Doughy, Douthy and Dearest Brooksie.
TooManyJens
Why do I have a feeling that Douthat doesn’t apply this reasoning to the national security state? No matter how much they restrict our civil liberties and torture people, it’s never going to be possible to prevent all terrorist attacks. But unlike liberals who don’t actually believe there’s such a thing as healthcare reform that will prevent all death, the authoritarian followers really do seem to think that we can prevent all attacks and that any degradation is worthwhile if it’s toward that end.
RossInDetroit
So I guess high infant mortality would OK? They’re just gonna get old and die anyway.
J
@El Cid: Touche! (don’t know how to make the accent appear)
Violet
@burnspbesq:
Why would they do that? From the Harvard perspective, Douthat did make something of himself. He’s got a column in the NYT. With a platform like that he can sell books, give speeches and be a keynote speaker at Harvard fundraisers. As far as Harvard is concerned, this was an excellent admissions decision.
Violet
@RossInDetroit:
It’s bad when it involves white babies. But if the babies have darker skin and, heaven forbid, are poor, then, sigh, well, they would have had such tough lives.
Petorado
So this is the conservative version of eugenics: poor people will die anyway, but profits will live forever, especially when the estate tax gets repealed. Good thing Ross has more societally productive things to spend money on other than health insurance premiums — Cheetos!
Chris
Oh, isn’t it cute? Yet another person who’s just discovered cynicism, thinks he’s reinvented the fucking wheel and has to tell the world all about it.
I read statements like this every now and then. Obviously, they’re supposed to sound like cynical and world-weary advice from Wise Old Men who’ve been taught by a world of pain and suffering to understand the futility of the human condition.
Here’s the problem; that’s not what they are. Nobody who’s ever had to watch their kid suffer from a pre-existing condition with no health insurance has ever gotten up and said “oh, the humanity! What a shame there’s nothing we can do!” Just like no one who’s ever actually experienced the ills of war, or crime, or whatever, would ever give pretty speeches about how futile the efforts against them were. This kind of professional cynicism only ever comes from wealthy, sheltered, upper- or upper-middle-class types who’ve never had the slightest contact with the world they claim to understand so well.
And I really love their belief that because they’ve discovered cynicism, they somehow have some special insight or knowledge that the rest of us rubes don’t. It’s the same smugness that makes people want to beat college hippies or religious puritans over the head with baseball bats, except at least the hippies and puritains are trying to help in some clumsy way. The cynics get the same gratification from just sitting on a couch and shaking their heads sadly at the many horrors they’ve never touched with a thousand-foot-pole, but somehow understand everything about.
Fuck ’em with a rusty pitchfork.
Caz
DougJ, you’re missing the entire point of the article. He’s not saying that the world is imperfect and since we can’t make it perfect we should just give up or not give a shit. What he’s saying is that it’s inappropriate to accuse your opponents of the imperfections of the world because there will always be imperfections no matter what; so it’s not fair to blame your opponent for imperfections which cannot be cured.
Seriously, that short article threw for this big of a loop? Lol. Better brush up on the reading comprehension!
eemom
he needs a new nickname; one that doesn’t sound like a tasty ice cream flavor.
I’ve been floating “Doughtwat” for some time now, but it doesn’t seem to have caught on.
Jamie
Yeah, why don’t we just save time and give Goldman Sachs all of our money and be done with it. They’re going to get it all in the way anyway. We could save a lot of time.(/snark)
gerry
This is similar to the know-nothingism of the free market folks. “No one can possibly know everything about an economy so no one can sun an economy.” Of course, CEOs of large corporations can’t possibly know everything about their companies, yet get big bucks for running them. Also, too, economies have been and continue to be run successfully.
Ruckus
When I was quite young a DR told me that I should eat well, only good fats, low carbs, little red meat, etc, etc. I, being very very young, asked him how much longer I would live. The answer was maybe 30-60 days longer. I said that was not much for all those years of sacrifice of not eating what I liked. But of course I’ve found he was correct, the quality of life is much more important than the absolute quantity.
But now I learn from Douchehat that I’m going to die anyway and therefore I can’t have quality or quantity. Life really is a bitch isn’t it?
DougJ DougJson
@Caz:
I don’t know what you’re trying to say. He’s saying we shouldn’t care too much about political decisions because we’re all going to die anyway. I read it again and that’s what he’s saying. What do you think he’s saying?
Pseudonym
It’s a simple matter of deontological versus consequentialist/teleological ethics. The impact of health care policy on the mass of human suffering is irrelevant; indeed, suffering (others’, not Douchehat’s) serves a purpose and can be a moral good. Abortion is wrong because the
Biblepope says so, not because it ends human life or causes fetuses to suffer.Yutsano
@DougJ DougJson: This could be fun. DougJbenDougJ is about to pwn himself a troll. I should make popcorn.
kyle
You’re all fucking morons.
The guy’s post was rebutting Michael Kinsley’s clever little riposte to a specific idea put forward by the president.
The idea is that there’s something wrong with believing that everything bad in the world is brought about by a given set of political ideas. Because the world is a lot bigger than any set of ideas. A lot of the really nasty shit that happens to us isn’t caused by somebody else’s opinions. It’s caused by the misery of being animals that are going to die.
Which does not mean there’s no point to fighting for the things that are indeed influenced by human beliefs and institutions. Just that no one should be treated as the source of all the world’s evil because nobody is the source of all the world’s evil. Hence we have a reason not to be inflamed fanatics.
You may not agree with that line of reasoning. But there it is, and it isn’t the one you dipshits have been heehawing about.
Dave C
All wealth is temporary and will eventually be lost…so why should we give you a fucking tax break?
WarMunchkin
Man, I wear my understanding of the Total Perspective Vortex as a badge of honor, and it pains me to see a conservative get his/her dirty hands on it. Is there no refuge?
TooManyJens
@Caz: Honestly, I think that’s the (incredibly inane) point he started out making, and then he drifted into the nihilism that DougJ is accusing him of:
Tell that to all the dead people who would have been alive if the Supreme Court hadn’t stopped the vote counting in 2000. To individual people, especially marginalized people, who we vote for matters a great deal. No liberal I know thinks they’re saving the world from suffering by voting for Democrats — talk about a strawman. But we also know that it’s not as meaningless as Douthat makes it out to be.
@Dave C: Perfect.
Caz
DougJ,
This passage summarizes the author’s point:
“However wrongheaded you believe your ideological opponents to be, laying “all that ails the world” at their feet represents an absurd politicization of human affairs, and a spur to the most self-deluding sort of utopianism. After all, what ultimately ails the world is its inherent imperfectibility[.]”
What he’s saying is that it’s wrong to accuse your opponents and their policies for “all that ails the world.” Some people place blame with their opponents and their opponents’ policies for causing an overwhelming number of problems in the world, problems which this author feels will exist no matter what policies we follow, because the world is imperfect. So this uber-blaming of one party or another for the myriad of problems is wrong because we live in an imperfect world where these problems will exist regardless of how hard we try to address them.
He’s not saying that it’s pointless to even try. He doesn’t really address how hard or in what manner we should try to cure the ills of the world. He’s merely saying that we should be careful to buy into arugments that go overboard and blame all these imperfections on our opponents.
We can’t cure the imperfections no matter how hard we try. And although he doesn’t address how we should try to cure them, I suspect he feels as we do – that trying to cure them will at least reduce them to a manageable degree so that the world, while still imperfect, is a better place to live.
Anyway, that’s what I got out of the story, and I’ve read it a few times. I’ll grant you that it may seem to imply that trying is pointless, but it’s not specifically what he’s saying. And perhaps he would have done himself more justice by pointing out at the end of the article that we should try to make the world a better place even though the world will never be a perfect place no matter how hard we try.
What do you think?
Caz
I think Kyle may have said it better than me, and certainly more colorful for all of us “fucking morons,” lol.
Nick
The sense I got from what he wrote reminds me of something Kate Beckinsale as Ava Gardner said in The Aviator:
“Nothing is clean, but we try our best, right?”
On a bigger scale, I think this is what weakens the left. That perfect utopia isn’t possible, and everything we do just improves, however small, our standing, but there’s always going to be something for the left to attack to prove “it isn’t good enough” and the right to attack as an example of how we failed.
Caz
TooManyJens,
As you pointed out, he’s clearly in favor of the idea that our efforts can help:
“…the recognition that only a small fraction of existing human suffering can possibly be relieved[.]”
So we can relieve some of it, but not all of it, so of course it’s worth trying.
Pseudonym
@kyle:
Actually, I seriously doubt everyone here is sleeping with you.
TooManyJens
@Caz:
Which, seriously, is barely a point worth making. Did anyone really think that Kinsley was literally laying “all that ails the world” on the shoulders of any particular political party? Douthat comes across like somebody telling Leonardo DiCaprio’s character in Titanic, “You know, you’re not really the king of the world. In fact, the world is made up of over 100 sovereign states, many of which are democratic republics and are not ruled by kings at all.”
Kinsley’s point, which seems to have entirely passed Douthat by in his quest to be that pedantic guy in the corner at the party, is that of course people think “the other side” is what’s wrong with the world, because if you thought “your side” was wrong, you wouldn’t be on it. That’s not exactly deep thought either, but Douthat’s response was just silly.
Ruckus
@Pseudonym:
Vicious.
And a direct hit
DougJ DougJson
@kyle:
My excerpt represents about a third of the total of what he wrote. And the context doesn’t change anything. He is quite literally saying that we are wrong to be upset about the fact that this or that policy might save a million lives because it won’t cure everything.
You’re the second person to make this criticism so please point me to something that contradicts what I am saying. I don’t see it, and I am looking for it.
Calming Influence
I know this is just, like, my opinion, man, but that should be a tagline.
DougJ DougJson
@Caz:
Yes, he also set up a ridiculous strawman, one who thinks that *all* the world’s ills are caused by his political opponents. That makes his point more ridiculous, not less ridiculous.
MattR
@DougJ DougJson: IMO, the pernicious thing is that Douthat is trying to convince voters to overlook all the things that they like about Democrats because the difference between the two parties is not that great in the grand scheme of things. There are always going to be crazies, so don’t pay attention to which party is trying to make it a once a year event and which party is fine with it occurring once a month. You are going to die eventually so don’t pay any attention to which party wants to make sure you will always have access to basic health care while you are alive.
Parallel 5ths (Jewish Steel)
@Caz: that quote seems to restate dougj’s premise. Who’s the poor comprehender of readables again?
Caz
DougJ,
I agree his “argument” is ridiculous, no matter how you interpret it. I was just giving my opinion on what he was trying to say, but even assuming I’m correct, it’s still a dumb article to write.
You’d think with so many relevant issues of the day hanging about, he could find something a little more pressing than “all that ails the world” to write about.
And since his article seemed pretty pointless, I didn’t even waste time reading the article he was responding to. I can’t imagine that the article he is responding to is all that important if his response consists of an “all that ails the world” argument, lol.
Calming Influence
“Mom, Hobbes is nasty, brutish, and short!”
Calvin
DougJ DougJson
@Caz:
I think you’re right about what he’s trying to say. In fact, what bugs me about it is that he’s not just saying who cares, we’re all going to die but who cares we’re all going to die so why be uncivil about a few million lives here or there. I agree that the latter, not the former is his point.
El Cid
There’s a staggeringly commonly repeated, familiar anti-liberal case which tritely argues that liberalism and soshullism fail because their proponents proceed based upon on the notion of human perfectibility, and since humans cannot be perfected, their project falls apart.
Thus liberal and leftist naivety about human nature leads them to condemn their conservative and traditionally religious opponents — who, of course, sagely understand the burden of seeing the true nature of imperfect humanity — as the block in the path of attaining utopia.
Ija
@DougJ DougJson:
To be fair to Douthat (uhh, kill me now) it was Obama who set up that strawman in his speech:
But Kinsley actually didn’t use the “all” formulation:
So Douthat is blaming Kinsley for a formulation that Obama created, but Kinsley didn’t actually use. Maybe we can give Douthat the benefit of a doubt here (kill me again, please!) and say that he is confusing Obama’s words with Kinsley’s. That and he probably is not familiar with Kinsley’s snarky and smart-alecky way of arguing, being a sincere true believer and all.
Pseudonym
On the other hand, there are plenty of things human beings could have done to prevent this particular madman from shooting up a crowded parking lot; Kinsley’s point is that debating those possible courses of action is manifestly a political discussion, and “fallen character” or “irreducible complexity and tendency toward entropy and dissolution” are lame explanations that merely beg the question of what role politics played in this event and what role it might play in preventing its recurrence.
Comrade Kevin
@burnspbesq: Gerry Adams has been pretending to be statesman-like for years. I, personally, find Martin McGuinness to be far more palatable; at least he’s more honest about his background.
Pseudonym
Also, too, when has a strict materialist ever supported the notion of irreducible complexity? That creationist buzzphrase is meant to imply the necessity of a non-material creative intelligence in shaping and forming life on Earth.
El Cid
I lay blame for all the problems of the world upon Republicans. They were responsible for the Permian-Triassic extinction. Clearly this is what I think because I am a liberal / left / raving ideologue type, so thankfully there are people in the public discourse reminding me to not quite be so totalizing. Because you know us liberals and leftists — always totalizing everything.
DougJ DougJson
@Ija:
That’s a good point. But also too Obama was clearly speaking figuratively.
Pseudonym
On the other hand, Douthat makes a strong argument for the existence of irreducible perplexity.
daveNYC
Shorter Douthat: Shit happens, so just don’t try.
What a wanker.
DougJ DougJson
I guess I might also say that no one seriously, in a political context, thinks about eliminating all death and disease as a reasonable goal. So “all that ails the world” in this context means things like a somewhat elevated unemployment rate, health care that is too expensive and not widely enough accessible, and so on. I don’t think Obama was implying that there are people who literally blame the existence of death and disease on their political opponents.
Ija
@DougJ DougJson:
Yes, and so was Kinsley. But if you are trying to throw a sanctimonious snit fit about how the people on the left are trying to blame the right for everything, I’m sure you wouldn’t actually care.
Actually, I rescind my benefit of a doubt to Douthat. He deserves none.
PTirebiter
@DougJ DougJson: That was my first impression. If you reject his absurd premise, you’re head won’t explode while you trudge through shallows and muck of the rest of St. Ross’s soul.
SFAW
Great, now we have to figure out a way to un-kill you (twice, even).
I wish you had thought of this earlier.
Parallel 5ths (Jewish Steel)
“All that ails the world” is obviously, unless you have some brain problem that makes you take all statements at their literal face value, an oratorical flourish.
handy
This reads like the kind of argument Dennis Prager would make. Clever but ultimately vapid.
Ija
@SFAW:
I am now a vampire? Can I haz Robert Pattinson?
TooManyJens
@handy: Only without the “clever” part.
suzanne
Ross is just so emo.
PTirebiter
@Calming Influence:
too funny.
handy
@TooManyJens:
Arguably. I mean it’s clever enough in that it soothes his privileged mind.
SFAW
My daughter thinks Taylor Lautner is way hotter. Actually, my wife does, too. I don’t see it – actually, neither one of them impresses me – but what do I know?
But, as FSM said to Noah – “Whatever floats your boat.”
SFAW
Big deal. “Beavis and Butthead” was clever enough to soothe his mind.
Redshift
While it’s not too common among “intellectual” conservatives, among rank and file wingnuts, it’s pretty common to hear idiotic things like “we still have poverty, so the War on Poverty obviously failed.”
SFAW
Outside of Larison, do any exist in the wild?
Ija
@SFAW:
From what I have read of his work, I’ve always thought that Freddie de Boer guy who wrote that post about how there are no true leftists in the blogosphere is the Edward of the blogging world. He’s emo (he can dish it out but not take it, he spends hundreds of words bashing Ezra Klein for his tone for god’s sake, but throws a snit fit whenever anyone criticizes him) and he thinks he is misunderstood and underappreciated (wawawa, people don’t read and link to true leftist bloggers, we are systematically purged etc etc; you know what, shut up guy who had a perch at League of Ordinary Gentlemen but gave it up because it could hurt your academic career).
I’m still scouring the blogosphere for the Bella and Jacob of the blogging world. Any suggestion?
Delia
It’s really not fair to say that only conservatives think of these things. Keynes said we’re all dead in the long run and he’s supposed to be a liberal as far as economists go.
Anyhow, in celebration of this great insight, I suggest that all the world’s nuclear powers, beginning with us, just set off all their fireworks at once so we can end all the suffering once and for all. I’m sure Douthat would agree that it’s a reasonable proposal.
The Main Gauche of Mild Reason
It’s not really conservatism, this is nihilism. Granted, conservatism lately has acquired a nihilist streak, but they’re supposed to be different things…
Mark S.
@Delia:
Keynes was making a very different point when he said that. He was taking issue with the economists who said that in the long run, the economy would fix itself (this was during the Great Depression). Keynes said that was great, but we all be dead by the time that happens.
Villago Delenda Est
Look, people, what you’re supposed to do is accept the life we have now, with all its flaws, and look forward to an afterlife of joy, candy, puppies, and guilt free sex.
Mark S.
@Pseudonym:
Yeah, I was struck by the utter stupidity of that statement as well. Both Bobo and Chunky Bobo are insults to pseudo-intellectuals everywhere, because they obviously don’t understand the people and phrases they’re constantly dropping to try and look smart.
Wile E. Quixote
I’m just stunned at the vacuity of Ross Douthat. Whose cock did Douthat suck to get a job at the NYT? Seriously, this little shit with the wobbly pubic chin has never done anything significant or of value in his life, so why the fuck does anyone care about what he says? It’s as if the NYT just picked some random slacker dipshit who was working as a part time barista (and not doing a very good job at it) and put him on the editorial page. As ugly as he is Douthat must suck dick like a pro, I can see no other reason why anyone would want to hire him.
Ija
@Wile E. Quixote:
Well, you might want to check with the popular left leaning bloggers who were singing his praises and recommending him as a reasonable and smart conservative after the publication of that Grand New Party book. I’m not sure why he is the popular choice instead of his co-author Reihan Salam, but for a while there, you couldn’t go to the more prominent left-leaning blogs without reading something about how awesome Ross is.
ABloomquist
The quote that I regularly use to anger my friends:
“Aw, recycling’s useless Lis. Once the Sun burns out, this planet is doomed.”
Mary G
I almost wonder if some conservatives think Obama’s re-election is almost inevitable, so they all haz a sad.
NobodySpecial
Douthat goes Emo, huh? Next we’ll see him with black fingernail polish and a bunch of Avril Lavigne CD’s.
JGabriel
@El Cid:
Ah, yes: the trite man’s burden.
.
asiangrrlMN
Well if that’s the case, then let’s go loot the bankers and Wall Street and the fat cats. If life is as meaningless as Douthat suggests. Even if we are to take his point about blaming all that ails the world at the feet of one political party, I will echo what Yutsy said. One party wants to succor the wealthy and just plain doesn’t want to help the poor. One party, ostensibly, thinks there should be some semblance of equality in a civil society. If you are not one of the top one percent, then which fucking group should you choose as your own? Asshat.
OT: I haz a poll up at ABL’s place as to what I should do about my username. Please vote. You may vote as often as you like (I think), just don’t let “them” catch you!
@NobodySpecial: Not, as they say, that there’s anything wrong with that. I just wish he would go listen in the privacy of his own room and STFU.
Anne Laurie
@Ija:
Pshee, Doubthat is not gonna stand around outside in all weathers, lowering his social position by proximity to the kind of people Harvard’s security forces don’t permit within the quadrangle gates. Paying other people to harass women in front of family planning clinics, that’s more the Douthat style. And even then, he probably shortchanges the recipients of his promised “donations” because he’s aggrieved that he can’t take a tax credit on them.
Andre
Was he born that stupid, do you think, or did he have to work at it?
JGabriel
Weirdly on-topic, Jack LaLanne died Sunday at the age of 96. So clearly, Douthat is right: Why work out if you’re gonna die anyway? You’re just prolonging the misery.
.
Ija
@Anne Laurie:
LOL! Best thing I read today. Encapsulates the whole juvenile philosophy in one short paragraph.
Mark S.
@asiangrrlMN:
I kind of liked asianotter. But I voted for asiangrrlMN.
Going by Ross’ latest column on health care, it seems he’s taking his newfound nihilism seriously. After offering some crappy suggestions (more high deductible plans! less subsidies to really fuck over people without employer plans!), he states:
If conservatives are really loath to pass bills Obama might actually sign, then can they do us all a favor and just recess for the next two years?
Anne Laurie
@Wile E. Quixote: When one can lovingly tongue-bathe the proper egos as skillfully as Doubthat, there’s no need to do anything so vulgar as touching genitals.
And if there’s anything Doubthat wants to avoid, it’s touching genitals… even his own. A former seminary boy once told me that the priests encouraged their teenage charges to use a ruler to tuck in their uniform shirts if they found putting a hand within range of their unruly bits too evocative. Sounds like a joke, until you run across someone like The NYTime’s Most Publicly Pious Opinioneer.
asiangrrlMN
@Mark S.: asianotterMN! Damn. I knew I forgot one. Thanks for the input. This is Very Serious Business, you know. I might get a column in the NYT with my name! Hey, I can do pseudo-intellectual if necessary. I know lots of big words, and I’m not afraid to string them together in a meaningless sentence that sounds like it’s saying something important.
And, I agree about recessing for the Republicans. They will do less damage that way.
Ija
@Mark S.:
From the column
Yeah, good luck surviving with no insurance for two years if you are diagnosed with cancer. Or have a heart attack. I’m sure you could wait two years before getting treatment. Or better yet, why bother getting treated at all? In the long run, we’re all dead anyway.
Ija
@Mark S.:
Honestly, this column isn’t actually so bad by Douthat’s standard. It’s boilerplate Republicans talking points bullshit (complete with calling it Obamacare) rather than puritan sanctimonious preening. This is Douthat as a Republican propagandist rather than as a conservative true believer. He’s less annoying when he is being the former.
This is OOT, but is it wrong of me to think that Douthat has a lot of nerve calling someone else a “chunky Reese Witherspoon look-alike”? I mean, has he looked in the mirror recently? Not to be a lookist or anything, but seriously, you are not exactly, umm, svelte yourself.
JGabriel
Ija:
Yes, but only because most people don’t realize that the event Douthat described was actually himself masturbating in a mirror.
.
asiangrrlMN
@JGabriel: UGH! Did not need that image! Brain bleach needed.
I think it’s just that projection thing that Republicans have down to a science–call out in others what you do/are yourself.
JGabriel
To anyone who thinks that crack is unduly vicious, I remind them that it was Douthat who belittled, in a nationally distributed publication, one of the few women generous enough to share her body with him as a “chunky Reese Witherspoon”. He deserves nothing but contempt.
.
JGabriel
asiangrrlMN:
Yeppers.
.
Ija
@JGabriel:
Ah, but in the end she didn’t. Because Douthat was grossed out by the fact that she was on the pill. Because being on the pill = sluts. Poor Ross, where are all the virgins when you need them.
JGabriel
Ija:
True, but the spirit of generosity was still there — Douthat’s misogynistic squeamishness notwithstanding.
.
bjacques
@asiangrrlMN: I voted that you stick with that one. I’m a traditionalist, having picked my handle in 1991 and derived it from Blacque Jacques Shellacque, the squat French-Canadian lumber jack from 1960s Bugs Bunny cartoons, for no particular reason.
@ Todd 14: Douthat’s nihilism is what you get when you pick up a stranger in the Alps! Whatta melonfarmer!
John
The particular factual premises here seem pretty indefensible, too. Obviously, the US is never going to introduce British-style gun control laws, and there’s so many guns on the street right now that it’s hard to see how they could be effective here anyway. But British-style gun control laws really do prevent pretty much all “crazy person shooting up a parking lot full of people” type of events. When was the last time that happened in the UK?
WereBear (itouch)
I figure Douthat leads a life devoid of purpose, pleasure, or love, so he doesn’t see any point in living except suicide incurs the wrath of an angry god.
So young, so plump, and yet so pointless.
Southern Beale
OMG.
Apparently we’re all gonna die! Eventually!
Benjamin Cisco
@JGabriel: __
Where would you like your internets delivered?
SRW1
One question for Doubthtat to think through:
Writing columns in the NYT, what is it good for?
And please, Ross, follow the logic.
Barry
@KG: “This is actually a fairly common refrain among a certain segment of so-cons, particularly those with a Catholic background. It’s all about the fall of man and the futility of seeking perfection, which is why I left the Catholic Church. It’s also about the desire of those in power to maintain their power. ”
Not really; there’s a lot of Catholics helping the poor, knowing that they’ll never fix the world.
It’s a simple matter of “I’ve got mine, f*ck you”
If Douthat didn’t have access to healthcare, I guarantee that he would not think that it doesn’t matter, because he’s not immortal anyway.
Keith G
Ross seems to be saying the same thing that a conservative physician I know often talks about.
The doc posits that if we extended to all citizens the “ideal” standard of care that most of us expect, the tax burden to pay for such a program would be crushing.
He would say that middle class Americans have extra cash in their wallets because we are not paying for the infrastructure to provide best practices (or for the care itself) for all persons in this society. If every cancer or heart ailment were aggressively fought, if every dysfunctional joint replaced, the financial cost would rub out most other spending.
Hearing him always bums me out.
matoko_chan
DougJ this is a core part of conservative ideology, best expressed by Bush’s Bioluddite Council….you know, the pseudo-scientists that suppressed scientific research in America for eight years?
Heres one of my heroes, Steven Pinker, deconstructing the “dignity” argument that they have traditionally used to suppress escR and anti-senescence research.
The Stupidity of Dignity
Douthat is an anti-science first culture intellectual. The reason 94% of scientists are NOT-republicans is because science is empirical, conservatism is anti-empirical. The GOP is a JUDEOCHRISTIAN party, a wholly RELIGIOUS party.
We are not a secular nation.
WereBear
@JGabriel: Am I the only one who thought Douthat’s “reluctance to go through with it” was a mask for not being physically able?
Ifyouknowhutimean.
matoko_chan
Let us highlight this phrase.
Douthat’s core ideology. Women as broodmares.
matoko_chan
@JGabriel: Close. Douthat cant get it up unless he is impregnating. What is hot for him is the woman as broodmare.
Judas Escargot
Hey, all the wealthy are going to die someday and lose their money anyway.
So we can have a 100% tax rate on the top 1%, right?
PIGL
@Keith G: @Keith G: except what your physician is not true because of counter examples provided by every other nation in the so-called first or second worlds.
kay
Well, I have well-documented and admittedly huge trust issues with conservatives, but I don’t think it’s “about” anything loftier than this:
Catholic bishops (the lobbying arm) don’t back repeal. They don’t back reform, either, really, they’ve taken this very pragmatic middle position so they can continue to lobby, but Republicans were counting on a sharp division to exploit, and we all recall how the nuns backed reform and the bishops did not, etc. That division is breaking down.
There’s a moral element to health care reform that “serious” conservatives are having a lot of trouble dodging.
lllphd
my reaction exactly.
i saw it at sully’s and sent this email to him:
subject: doubt that
Andrew, are you sensitive to the nihilism in Ross’s words? They fell flat because he offers the bleakest picture of the futility in even our most noble efforts. Why bother?
This is one objection I have to putting God’s hand behind all events; it takes away our responsibility. And not just responsibility in an individual sense, but in a very general, global sense. It also makes it entirely too easy to explain one’s good fortune, and the bad fortune of other’s, as part of God’s design, reducing the need for pity or compassion. There but for the grace of God, after all….
Though it is true that our strivings have brought us up short of perfection, is that to be interpreted as some reason – or even excuse – to cease our strivings? Sure, there may always be a madman lurking who will slip through our most earnestly helpful fingers, but does that mean we withdraw the help?
Another objection I have to defaulting to God’s hand is this notion of our being “fallen.” Of course, we’re imperfect, but we are also noble and good and capable of raising “the least among us” to greater heights.
And, in that process, ourselves. Are we not, after all, brothers?
Brazilian Rascal
Of course Sully thinks it’s the profoundest thing ever. I’d write to him asking why humanity ever evolved past the hunter-gatherer state if we are such thralls to entropy and imperfectability, but I know there’s no point.
Just like he is always, ever waiting for the perfect pro-gay tory GOPer to run back to the republican side and denounce us 5th columnists, he just needs thin film of theological wankery to accept an argument at face value.
kay
I’m relying on his next screed (today) to get where I got.
In Part Two, he suggests some facile and poorly-thought through “fixes” (conservative boilerplate) like “deregulating” the state exchanges (the exchanges aren’t operational yet, so I think it’s hysterical that conservatives want to deregulate them, with no data at all).
Anyway, I don’t think a great conservative moralist like this guy can summarily reject the moral element of health care reform, once he’s lost the bishops.
Chris
@Keith G:
But remember, we’re the ones who believe in triage and death panels and bureaucrats deciding who lives or dies.
Christ.
WereBear
@kay: conservative moralist?
They conserve their morals, all right; by never using them.
Jamey: Bike Commuter of the Gods
Wait, wha…? Was this Douthat’s peak-Jonathan Swift moment?
Jeez, when you consider that the end is inevitable, abortion sounds downright humane, if only to spare poor blastocytsts three-score and ten of unmitigated suffering.
Chris
@kay:
They not only didn’t back reform but they actively opposed it; I remember several priests going up in front of their congregations and warning that it would fund abortion, even after Stupak had already put his reputation and career on the line to ensure that it didn’t.
The USCCB’s getting more and more irrelevant to the morals of this country by the day. I can’t say they haven’t earned it.
Keith G
@PIGL: And I bring that up.
If I recall, the response falls along the line of “apples and oranges”
1) At over 350 million diverse folks spread over a large land mass, care will be more expensive per capita than other places.
2) We already spend a lot more on a lot of other things than other societies and have less room in our budget.
3) Americans expect an state of the art technical interventions on demand.
4) Most Americans fear non-price rationing to the point of intolerance.
5) Currently most Americans expect aggressive medical intervention later in life than most other societies.
polyorchnid octopunch
Yeah, I think he’s contemptible too. My favourite nym for him is DoucheHat. It’s the best one I’ve seen, at any rate.
Keith G: That’s not true. Expecting the kind of response that the folks with the Cadillac plans (and that is actually a very small group of people in the US) is futile, but waiting for six months for a new hip is not necessarily the end of the world… and a lot of countries manage to do just what your friend says is not possible.
Keith G
@Chris: Well, as I perceive his statements, these are conflicts that need to be dealt with, but that politician slink away from.
There is only so much wealth to be generated, so there is a finite amount of a society’s wealth that can be spent on health care. American expectations of health care are unrealistic when scaled up to universal and equal access – depth of individual treatment vs breadth of population covered. Does every brain trauma get to be treated like Gabby Giffords?
Does every 69 year old with multiple myeloma get the same treatment that my mom received? The extra year we got to spend with her was wonderful and very costly to Aetna.
That is the issue raised by that physician.
Edit – polyorchnid octopunch: My mom was a school cook.
kay
@Chris:
This is hyper-cynical, but I don’t even buy that they opposed it. They stayed in, waffling and raising nonsense objections so they’d have a seat at the table and some leverage, like all the other lobbyists. I just don’t think it was lofty or religious. I think it was hard-headed pragmatism. They run a huge federally-subsidized health care system. That’s just fact.
They’re like somewhere behind the Chamber of Commerce in line, but ahead of the National Association of Independent Restaurants.
I think it was inevitable, too, that they end up as just another lobbying group. I don’t know that it was wise, if they seek to retain moral authority, but I think it was inevitable.
Paris
DoucheHat’s argument is the epitome of nihilism. Its the same as ‘who cares how many American troops died in Iraq, more people die in car accidents’ that some wingnut (i.e. my father) used as a position to justify the illegal invasion of Iraq.
kay
@WereBear:
I think they’re aware of the moral argument for reform. It must have traction in the crowd they run with, because they all repeat the trope that “anyone can go to the emergency room”.
Former President Bush always said it, and GOP Senate leaders repeat it now. I just don’t think they can take the position that people are dying on the street, and conservatives don’t care, because their base is so heavily religious.
Plus, have they ever, ever in your lifetime missed a possible chance to lecture the rest of us on morality?
They’re concerned about people dying without basic health care. They are. Really and truly :)
brantl
You have to call it an ethos, because it isn’t logically consistent enough to be called a logos.
SFAW
Yes. Of course, those (few) times occur only when they’ve been caught with their pants down (literally or figuratively). But after the furor (or whatever) has faded – say, 2 or 3 weeks after getting caught – they’re back at doin’ the moralizin’ thing.
Chris
@SFAW:
Unless they’re being caught with their pants down and immediately start lecturing the world about how this is central to their point about how liberal/secular/Protestant immorality is contaminating the world with pants-down immorality.
Because Lord knows if there’s one target susceptible to liberal/secular/Protestant cultural incursions, it’s the Roman Catholic Church.
BB
Shorter Ross Douthat:
“FUCKN MAGNETS: HOW DO THEY WORK?”
BB
Or, more Douthatian:
“Fuckn social services, how do they work?”
BB
“Because Adam broke our inner Jeebus power over 5,000 years ago, and now social services don’t work, so we all must die (unless Frodo throws the ring into the fire by very conservative means)”
matoko_chan
@kay: yes kay. that is why conservatives loathe Aubrey de Grey and Ray Kurzweil with the fire of a thousand suns.
If we defeat death and disease, christianity becomes obsolete, and thus the republican party.
El Cid
@JGabriel: That was unexpectedly good.
BB
Does this mean that, before “the fall,” Adam and Eve could have had a functioning socialist state, but now all we can do is live in this fallen, Galtian hell? I think Douthat just told us that heaven looks like Sweden. Call me crazy, but that’s new for a righty, isn’t it?
RSA
I’ll comment on a side point:
That’s true to a first approximation. By the same measure, though, nobody’s actually a s*ci*list or a communist. I’d probably wait a long time before Douthat makes that observation, though.
Glen Tomkins
Time to Godwinize this thread
A cursory review of this thread to date showed no mention of the Third Reich, yet, and it seems time to euthanize the thing, so here goes the coup de grace.
Look, those six million who died in the Holocaust would almost all be dead by now anyway, from that wasting power of death and disease, even if there had been no Holocaust. So, clearly, we can agree with Douthat that “All is forgiven, Adolf! It’s God that done it, not you. Nothing that humans could do will prevent the occasional madman from killing six million.”.
There. Now the thread can die with dignity.
LongHairedWeirdo
He’s pulling on the “there’s not really much difference between the Democrats and Republicans” meme.
Note that this also explains why Republicans are willing to start wars, ignore global warming, ignore the deficit until it’s necessary complain in order to make Democrats look bad, etc.. It doesn’t really matter who is in power, and therefore, it might as well be Republicans.
He does have a port of sorts. If anyone out there really thought that having Republicans in control of government would bring in a golden age, they’re fools. A similar statement can be made regarding Democrats, if the Democrats actually *took* control, rather than letting Republicans run the show even when in the minority.
But no one actually believes that (except for the fools who, admittedly, are always a substantial minority). It’s a straw man.
Another Bob
I just pulled this passage from the DougJ’s post above about global warming because it so perfectly illustrates the process right wingers use to deny factual information. There can never be enough empirical data to convince right wingers, or at least to get them to publicly acknowledge that they’re wrong. There will be an extensive number of fallback positions based on various forms of sophistry, misinformation, deceit and lies. At the end, finally, perhaps, at the end, there will be a statement of nihilism and the futility of government doing anything to help people.
That’s why it’s really kind of pointless to “debate” with wing nuts, because they’d don’t care about facts or truth, they’ll never admit it, and in the end, won’t do anything about it. This is why trying to find consensus with them is usually pointless. Better to get at them when they’re down and steamroll them with absolute ruthlessness and relentlessness when you get the chance.
asiangrrlMN
@bjacques: Thanks for the input. I hear ya, and I am leaning in that direction. For now.
@lllphd: This is simply beautiful. I had to point that out.
@Jamey: Bike Commuter of the Gods: Love it. I wish someone would ask Douthat why he’s so against abortion if life sucks and we all die anyway.
Another Bob
And another thing: It’s pointless to take right wingers’ apparent nihilistic statements as though they were sincere about it. If you notice, they’re not nihilists in general, or where their own lives are concerned. They celebrate and cherish their own lives and the lives of the people they identify with. They just don’t happen to give a shit about the lives of people NOT like themselves. In fact, in a way, they secretly celebrate the misfortune of other people, because it makes their own lives look fabulous and/or righteous by comparison. As in so many other cases, their pose of nihilism/resignation is just another expression of selfish indifference. That’s why smug hypocrisy is the attitude that suits them best.
Phoenix Woman
“Douthat’s argument is frankly nihilistic. Say what you will about the tenets of RedState and Free Republic, at least it’s an ethos.”
Kiwanda
Douthat seems to be using the standard reactionary *futility* trope described by Albert Hirshman in *The Rhetoric of Reaction*: there’s just nothing we can do that will really help, so why bother?
And, this “shorter George Will” is not too far from the conservative “jeopardy” theme that Hirschman pointed out: doing anything is not only futile, it’s way too expensive.
goatchowder
They are nihilists. And they’ll cut off your Johnson.
goatchowder
Actually, I’d call it a Pathos.