I’m a big fan of the passive-aggressive writing style, even though I rarely use it and instead go for straight up aggressive. However, props to “some writer” at Andrew Sullivan’s place for this:
A writer at Balloon Juice replies:
Follow the links- I bet you can figure out who the writer is in both cases!
But don’t you just love it? “Their arguments are so bad and they are so insignificant I can’t bother to address them by name!”
I’m also suggesting DougJ change his name to “A writer at Balloon Juice (formerly DougJ).”
CJ
Maybe DougJ is Voldemort.
Crashman
Young Conor acting a little passive-aggressive for being criticized, perhaps?
In the past, I haven’t minded his work, but this latest stint on the Dish has me gagging; I’m not sure exactly what it is, but I can’t stay anything he’s posted over the last few days. Is it a smug tone, or something else?
dmsilev
Also,
“Subtly”? If that’s his idea of subtle playing on racist fears, I’d hate to see what would be needed to rise to the level of “overt”. A burning cross, perhaps.
dms
dmsilev
@CJ:
No, he’s Spartacus. As am I. As are you.
dms
cleek
i am DougJ DougJson
Poopyman
@Crashman:
I haven’t followed his work before, but reading it today, I’d say it was his smug tone AND totally lame-ass arguments.
joe from Lowell
The Balloon Juice Writer Formerly Known as DougJ.
Dude needs a symbol.
freelancer
Technically, everyone here is a “writer at Balloon Juice.” Way to go CF, you’re two blasé dismissals away from getting your own fact-free economic blog at the Atlantic.
Marc
I thought folks here would get a kick out of that.
But Christ, there’s so much more to mock in young Conor’s guestblogging gig. Obscuring DougJ’s byline has nothing on his sophomoric response to Ezra Klein’s reasonable point on GDP, population, and poverty: Ezra is wrong because Russia was big and Stalin was bad!
Heal fast, Sully.
Warren Terra
I don’t have a high opinion of Sullivan, but he does have some strengths. Sadly, picking Guest Bloggers is not one of them; his taste there is usually abominable: Kirchik, Suderman, Freiersdorf, and that’s just off the top of my head.
Still, about five years ago he did have the incomparable Hilzoy guest for him (albeit together with Kirchik and one other thoroughgoing slug, if I recall). So, on the one hand, he is capable of finding a good guest blogger. On the other hand, the fact that he’s capable of good choices might just demonstrate that he makes choices poorly, rather than carefully and consistently selecting only bad choices.
Ash Can
So according to this Friedersdorf jack-off, as long as you don’t raise your voice when stating that your political opponent performs blood sacrifices of kindergartners on Satanic altars, it’s all good. Got it.
Jules
Here, here.
different church-lady
No, no, try “A. Writer @ Balloon Juice”. You know, in the tradition of A. Whitney Brown… “Not THE Whitney Brown, just A Whitney Brown…”
srv
Would any writer at Balloon-Juice please call The Atlantic’s editors and determine exactly what oral favors are required for a gig there?
Surely one of our front-pagers would be up to making that sacrifice for the good of the blog.
freelancer
reposted from downthread:
Also, he’s taking the literal argument, that the perpetrators of Willie Horton and Swiftboat Vets for Truth weren’t pernicious or full of hateful bile because their faces weren’t contorted with rage while they shilled this poison to the country. CF writes:
What I said is that angry, self-righteous bile spewing isn’t effective – that is why you don’t see politicians engage in it very often.
Maybe, but the audience gets the message. And then the politicians are enthused by the reaction. Whether it’s purple-heart band-aids or a Patriotboner over some dupe calling himself a “Proud Right Wing Terrorist.” They’re complacent and this “they’re not LITERALLY doing it” argument is a false distinction. It’s a really dumb thing to do, especially for a “writer”.
Dave C
I can’t quite figure out why, but when I read that guest-blogger’s writing, it always, no matter what the topic, comes off sounding like little more than self-satisfied wanking.
Nate W.
The only excuse I can think of for this is Conor being uncomfortable about using handles rather than full names. I expect that if an excuse for this behavior is forthcoming, that will be it. However, I also expect that if one were to scour Conor’s previous writings, one would find this excuse to be lacking in foundation.
Elizabelle
I noticed that.
It’s helpful to think of Sullivan’s replacement bloggers as “the puppies”, and a few of them have been quite good.
Walter Kirn (author of “Up in the Air” and other novels) guested for a stint.
Mark S.
@Dave C:
Is there any other kind?
Dave C
@Mark S.:
heh, indeedy.
The Disgruntled Chemist
Fucking bylines, how do they work?
beltane
When is Sully returning? For all his faults, at least his blog would be a good source of links on the situation in Egypt. His “guest bloggers” suck at the best of times, but are even more infuriating when there are interesting events unfolding.
What color would he use to commemorate the uprising in Egypt?
Nate W.
@Mark S.: Google “masturbation aversion therapy.”
Or on second thought, don’t…
mistermix
One of the little pleasures of my day is hitting “mark all read” in Google Reader when Sully’s guest bloggers take over.
Woodrow "asim" Jarvis Hill
@dmsilev:
And thus, you have succinctly summed up the core of why we can’t talk about Racism in America.
danimal
@cleek: I am Arkon DougJ.
chris
Is it a reflection of my poor life choices, or the lack of a life at all..that I am here fist pumping sayin “My man DougJ!” when I read about you guys getting mentioned by these supposedly famous people? (Easily impressed I am–relurking now)
cleek
@Mark S.:
well, there’s the kind that ends in disappointed frustration. and then there’s the kind that ends suddenly, in panic.
Midnight Marauder
This is one of the lamest comments I’ve read in quite some time.
“See, even though the message is repugnant and horribly racist, at least they aren’t being sanctimonious or ugly about it!”
Because I know that definitely helps the outright bigotry and fearmongering go down smoother. The fact that the bigot and fearmongering asshole’s face isn’t contorted with transparent rage and hatred. Totally helps.
elvis nixon (formerly Judas Escargot)
@Crashman:
Young Conor acting a little passive-aggressive for being criticized, perhaps?
Not just that… but also, too, still– objectively wrong.
The Daisy ad is not comparable to the Swift Boat ads: Goldwater was, indeed, on the record in wanting to consider using nuclear weapons in Vietnam. Proud of it, too. The Swift Boaters, however, were objectively proven to be liars by multiple sources.
I don’t particularly care if lies are served to me hot and screaming, or (like revenge) ice cold: Lies are lies.
But (as others point out), it’s apparently more about style and tone than substance for the Young Conor.
:some balloon-juice commenter or other.
Cris, a commenter at Balloon-Juice
Maybe it’s some kind of snooty dismissal of pseudonyms. “Well, he calls himself DougJ, but that could be anybody.”
kindness
Young Conner is really sucky. I honestly kinda enjoy reading Sully, even when he is mind numbingly defensive about dumb conservatives.
Can’t say the same thing about Conner.
geg6
@Midnight Marauder:
Yeah, I just read the whole thing and scratched my head. His point seems to be that you can say or imply any old hateful, vile, bigoted lie and as long as you aren’t outwardly angry when you say it, it’s all good. Meanwhile, Alan Grayson is too mean and so must be abhorred, despite being 100% truthful and correct.
Anne Laurie
@Ash Can:
I think Friedersdorf is telling us that it’s okay to physically sacrifice your opponent on a Satanic altar, as long as it’s only Those People who get sacrificed and you serve the correct wine at the altar rail. But maybe I just got lost in his maze of theoreticals and badly-constructed subordinate clauses.
A Commenter at Balloon Juice (formerlyThe Grand Panjandrum)
“Some writers” just don’t get it, do they?
Elia
Genuine LOL.
DougJ is causing all sorts of hell amongst the libertarian intelligentsia blogerrati. I think he might want to start having other people taste his food before he eats…either that or stay the fuck away from hemlock.
DonInCda
All the focus on ‘civility’ and ‘tone’ is bullshiat, and Conor does, inadvertently, provide emphasis for that. It’s more of the style over substance crap we get everywhere else these days.
Whether I politely say ‘Kindly consume excrement and expire’ or scream ‘Eat shiat and die!’, I’m still not being nice to you; the venom just doesn’t burn before it kicks in.
Fuck civility, how about some honesty and integrity?
El Tiburon
@freelancer:
Right. These ads don’t count as bazookas because nobody was yelling and screaming with spittle flying from their frothy lips.
Fact is Willie Horton and Swift Boat ads were meant to bludgeon using mendacious and racist smears.
Xenos
You could always be like Mark Levin and rage against “Freidersdork”.
It is scary to think Levin and Dougj may have found common cause in hating that pup.
Sputnik
DougJ aka a writer at Balloon Juice was reacting to a post CF made reacting to a reader’s reaction (got it?) to a post about Keith Olbermann that started like this:
I read the first paragraph and promised myself I would never again read another thing written by young Conor.
RalfW
My taste for Dish has been waning in the past 6 months, but trying to read it today, I find that Connor’s reasoning leaves me irritated and wishing for a speedy recovery by Andrew. It’s just so flimsy.
Connor asks, rhetorically, at one point today “Is someone taking away the 401(k)s of Americans?”
Maybe he is thinking that the accounts themselves have not been taken. But much of the value that average, non-hedgefund investors had in their accounts is diminished, even with the Dow back to around 12,000, the period of low values meant that anyone having to make withdrawals during the trough got screwed — while the big firms that bet on the downside took a ton of value out of the market for their own gain.
So, Connor, the accounts are there, but the dollars are diminished, and the sense of security that once, sorta, was there is gone.
Dork.
DougJ DougJson
In fairness, I think the weirdness of my name choices might have confused him.
slag
@geg6:
This is, indeed, the rightwing version of civility. With all due respect, some writer at The Daily Dish is a traitor who should be hanged. See…civility!
JGabriel
John Cole:
Insane Clown Posse:
.
Andre
@Mark S.:
Well, if you don’t finish, I guess it wouldn’t be very satisfying…
Southern Beale
Oh my God. The examples of negative, vitriolic campaign ads are too numerous to list here … I think of my state of Tennessee which inundated the airwaves with hateful bile this election, not just for our governor’s race but for Congress, as well. I mean the anti-Harold Ford Jr. “call me” ad was pretty heinous, and the “call me” part was perhaps the least offensive part of the ad. It was sponsored by the RNC.
And are we just talking about ads? I realize “angry, self-righteous bile spewing” is subjective but some of the stuff politicians say when they’re speaking at these CPAC and American Enterprise Institute and Heritage Foundation functions can be pretty awful.
catclub
Re: self satisfied wanking: Are there other kinds?
I have heard rumors of some version done while one is the subject of a web camera, but have been too polite to explore the matter.
Scott P.
No, I think he’s saying that coded vile bigotry is acceptable in our society, but open vile bigotry isn’t. That was his main point. He wasn’t approving it.
Nutella
So would Conor say that if those white guys who murdered the black guy by dragging him behind their pickup truck with a rope remembered to always refer to him as ‘sir’ or ‘Mr. Black Guy’ while doing the kidnapping and dragging, then they’re not really self-righteous or bile-filled or even racist?
Politeness is everything.
slag
@Scott P.:
No. Coded vile bigotry is acceptable to righties. Not to the rest of us. It’s unfortunate that you all don’t seem to get that.
trollhattan
@Sputnik:
Yup. Young(?) Connor should be paid in wedgies, not Ameros.
Bella Q
@Scott P.:
But he’s approving of coded bigotry and making false equivalences and being passive aggressive and he just makes my head hurt.
sven
Steve Doocy is a douche.
(congratulations, Balloon Juice will be featured on Fox tomorrow)
Midnight Marauder
@DougJ DougJson:
In fairness, Conor Friedersdorf is a fucking know-nothing clown who is entirely undeserving of the benefit of the doubt because OF COURSE HE KNOWS HOW A FUCKING BLOG WORKS!
What, are you trying to get on The Atlantic payroll or something?
EDIT: I mean, come on. For fuck’s sake, your “weird name choice” still has a fucking first name of DougJ! Come the fuck on with this “oh, maybe he made an honest mistake.” He’s an idiot, plain and simple. Your current handle is “DougJ DougJson,” not “Liberal McAnonymous.” How long has he been familiar with this blog? I mean, really. Get the fuck out of here with that bullshit.
Elizabelle
@elvis nixon (formerly Judas Escargot):
I wish you’d go back to the Judas Escargot moniker.
It always makes me smile.
Elvis Nixon? Meh. Not inspired.
Ash Can
@sven: BWAHAHAHAHA! For reals? That’s aces!
ETA: Aw, damn, you’re joking, aren’t you? You had me going for a minute!
Southern Beale
@Midnight Marauder:
Payroll? There’s a payroll? You mean you can get paid to blog?
I’ve been doing it wrong.
Southern Beale
@sven:
No no no. Here’s how it works:
“Roger Ailes is a douche.”
NOW Steve Doocy will feature Balloon Juice on Fox tomorrow ….
Bella Q
@Elizabelle: I liked Judas Escargot better also. It’s a sure smile inducer.
MikeJ
@catclub: You’ll never make it in the NFL.
pragmatism
insane clown posse dorf: fucking bylines, how do they work?
chuckpalahniuk.net/forum/1000026/icp-f-cking-magnets-how-do-they-work
Southern Beale
@pragmatism:
Dooooood …. you got me at Chuck Palahniuk and you lost me at Insane Clown Posse …
pragmatism
@Southern Beale: sorry. backstory: ICP let all of its followers (the juggalos) know that all this time, they were essentially a christian band. they were being interviewed about this change and in a move that billo copied when he referenced the ebb and flow of the tides as proof certain of God, ICP offered as proof of the creator, “fucking magnets, how do they work?”.
sven
@Southern Beale: Damn, you’re right and I missed my chance!
I gather that now we have to say mean things about Balloon Juice so Doocy has something to read on the air.
John Cole is a Steelers fan and has been for years!!!
(is that going too far?)
politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0111/Dear_commenters_Steve_Doocy_is_reading.html
de stijl
@pragmatism:
I have a theory that, underneath the make-up, the fat guy in ICP is actually Guy Fieri.
Cris
Testing: if I revert my “Name” back to its previous value, does it still trigger moderation?
kyle
@Ash Can: No, he was saying that raising your voice is not effective for politicians. Good or not good is another consideration.
pragmatism
@de stijl: if they are two different people, i’m not sure who is worse. tied?
A writer
Writing writing writing…
Ecks
@A writer: Geez, one smarmy post and I put myself into moderation. Gah. Shoulda known.
asiangrrlMN
@Elizabelle: Me three on the Judas Escargot moniker.
I knew without clicking that it was CF and our very own DougJ, son of DougJ. I like his new handle. I hope he keeps it for awhile.
Personally, I think CF was irritated by DougJ’s poking and childishly decided to take a passive-aggressive swipe at him.
@dmsilev: Damn straight. T’aint nothing subtle about that ad.
asianotterMN
Ash Can
@kyle: Because it’s not a “bazooka approach” or “angry, self-righteous bile spewing” if it’s in a normal tone of voice, don’tcha know.
Garbo
@The Disgruntled Chemist: Genius.
pragmatism
@The Disgruntled Chemist: sorry chemist, didn’t see that you already said that.
Midnight Marauder
@de stijl:
All I’m saying is, no one has ever seen Guy Fieri at an Insane Clown Posse concert.
Laertes
Seems to me that Conor’s right about this.
His original point was that Olbermann’s style makes people who agree with him feel good, but is useless for changing opinions.
It’s not about right or wrong or racism or ferchrissakes dragging people behind trucks.
It’s a simple argument that Olbermann made us lefties feel good, but wasn’t doing us much good beyond that because his style alienated anyone who wasn’t already on side, and even occasionally made those of us who were feel a bit queasy.
It’s not even about the hate-spewing jackals in the ubiquitous right-wing propaganda machines being ten times worse.
By way of counterargument, DougJ serves up a few famously effective (and, some of them, truly vile) political ads. If those ads employed the style of rhetoric that Friersdorf argues is ineffective, they’d demolish his argument. But they don’t.
Also, he’s a dick for not calling DougJ by name. That’s a snotty, condescending thing to do.
de stijl
@Midnight Marauder:
I’ve never seen TotallyLooksLike before. It’s awesome! I can’t decide if I like Tom Arnold / Jonathon Lipnicki best or The Cowardly Lion / James Hetfield. And that’s just in the first few pages.
Parmenides
@Sputnik
The fact that he uses that as an example when he had a cushy job and the Teach for America guy probably had a horribly stressful position is all the indication you need to know about his temperament and character.
Oh it was so horrible to live in a place with someone who needed to blow of steam by listening to Keith Olberman while I merely got to work with the bestest and brightest talking about IMPORTANT things.
pragmatism
@de stijl: posh spice beckham looks like falcor from the neverending story.
de stijl
@pragmatism:
Guess who Pope Benedict looks like?
Midnight Marauder
@Laertes:
And now, his point has morphed into him arguing about tone being more relevant than the actual substance of someone’s rhetoric.
It has nothing to do with someone’s style making people who agree with them feel good. It’s actually about the fact that racism, bigotry, fearmongering, and other reprehensible behaviors in this country can pass unnoticed and uncriticized if they take on a form that is banal and non-bile filled. Of course people are going to know how to respond to outright bigotry and hatemongering. The real test as a culture and a society is how we respond to the exact same sentiments when they are dressed up in “acceptable” language and mores.
That’s kind of the entire point of the discussion. Of course they aren’t going to choose a rhetorical and electoral strategy that is hinged on outright racism and hatred. It’s no longer effective because, as a nation, we decided long ago that such behavior offends our sensibilities. So, of course no one is going to come out rhetorical guns blazing and say, “Hey, you know who doesn’t deserve rights? Niggers and mexicans.”
Instead, they broach such noxious sentiments in seemingly harmless rhetorical devices like talking about rampant voter fraud (only in minority communities, of course) or carefully constructed commercials in which only devious Hispanic males are seen engaged in nefarious actions (a la Sharron Angle)
You’re right. It’s about the fact that the uboquitous right-wing propaganda machine couches all of its hate and bile in docile, banal messaging. Because no one takes kindly to explicitly outward racism any more, no fucking duh.
Clearly, this is one of your first encounters with Young Conor. Par for the course, Laertes. This is par for the course.
pragmatism
@de stijl: bwahahahahaha its funny cause its true. i also like the sadlynaughts’ photoshop of bill kristol as the emperor.
Laertes
@Midnight Marauder:
No. It has not “morphed” into that. That’s what it was from the beginning, for better or worse. People here are so eager to get their WHARGARRBL on that they haven’t even bothered to read the article that’s got them so angry.
That’s pretty rich, coming from a guy who evidently hasn’t had any encounters with Conor at all. Let’s roll the tape:
Friersdorf:
See anything in there that you can disagree with? I don’t.
What he’s saying isn’t all that important, but it’s true as far as it goes. I’d reply that there’s a good deal of value in making those who already agree with him “feel relief.” That’s worth doing, even if it’s not a lot. But Friersdorf is very likely right that Olbermann wasn’t much good at persuading anyone, and near as I can figure he’s undeniably right when he says that presidents and senators don’t take that tone.
I guess it’s inconvenient that Friersdorf didn’t make the argument that y’all wish he’d made, but that’s no excuse for jamming your fingers in your ears and pretending that he did.
Michael
I think that the application of ETOH might make this my favorite Juice thread EVAH.
Turbulene
@Laertes: See anything in there that you can disagree with? I don’t.
Yes:
[I]n politics, the object is to persuade as many people as possible that your side has better ideas for running America.
But that’s not true at all. In politics, you have to do several different things in order to win: (1) you have to convince the other guy’s base to stay home on election day, (2) you have to fire up your own base, and (3) you have to appeal to the ignorant people who refuse to commit. Oftentimes, the way you do those things is by appealing to emotion: play to people’s fears, hopes and dreams. So it can be very important that to have a partisan media that pumps up your base and preaches to the choir; that can be the difference between a dispirited base that won’t show up on election day and an energized base that’s volunteering and donating and driving their neighbors to the polls.
CF models the electorate as a group of people who think critically about issues, try to inform themselves, and then make rational decisions based on the issue positions of candidates. And then those decisions are locked in forever. Its a cute model. But it is wrong. Political scientists and behavioral psychologists have been screaming for years about how this model has nothing to do with reality. At all. But because CF is ignorant and arrogant, he can’t be bothered to learn or believe any of that science, so he just spouts random crap that he made up.
What he’s good at is making people who already agree with him feel relief that someone is on their side. His angry demeanor is an asset in that project, but it’s not helpful in actually pushing the country in the direction that progressives would like it to go.
Have you ever noticed that people in church choirs keep going to church…where they get preached at. Why do you think they do that? After all, they already believe, so why do you think they keep going back to have their belief reinforced?
Michael
Hahahahahahahahaha…..
google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gHtd2HdtY4-e71IJUsu19XrUDUrA?docId=0d2aec5c16fa4c228c6c038eff…
Midnight Marauder
@Laertes:
So then, Conor had a shitty argument from the beginning, it would appear. How can people be both guilty of not reading the article while also being simultaneously correct in their criticism of the wholly nonsensical premise of Conor’s article? Moreover, was Conor’s original point that someone with Olbermann’s style “makes people who agree with him feel good, but is useless for changing opinions” or is it “him arguing about tone being more relevant than the actual substance of someone’s rhetoric?” Because those are two kind of different discussions, it would appear.
I see plenty of things. Let’s start with this.
I would probably also include something in there about actually constructing real idea that can actually work in the real world in a constructive fashion. Because politics is more than just about persuading people to be on your team; it’s about doing real things that make an actual difference in improving the lives of others, especially those who do not possess the ability to advocate on their own behalf.
I would object by saying that was never Olbermann’s task to begin with. Was Olbermann trying to convince people to become liberals, or rather, was he simply trying to expose an never-ending amount of corruption and malfeasance in this country? Maybe he was just a dude trying to connect the dots about how fucked up things are. Why does he need to be the Great Liberal Banner Carrier? Who even assigned him that role besides Young Conor?
If the fate of progressive legislation in this country is largely dependent on Keith Olbermann, then we are fucked.
I will not even dignify such transparent nonsense with further response.
I agree with this. Now how about he write something about temperate, grounded rhetoric designed to disguise rank bigotry and xenophobia?
And again, the question needs to be asked whether Olbermann’s purpose as to even “persuade” anyone?
According to you, he did, in fact, make the argument we think he made. From the beginning, no less.
khead
I’m too lazy to see if anyone cited it, but….
Helms’ AA ad?
Laertes
@Midnight Marauder:
The former. The latter isn’t it at all, and I was wrong when I said you were right about that. You weren’t.
@khead:
And that’s a perfect example. That ad is simple racism, served neat. And like some of the other ads that DougJ linked, it proves the point that really vile ads can be effective, but doesn’t in any way rebut Friersdorf’s argument that Olbermann’s rhetorical style was ineffective.
mclaren
Well, at least you guys are now being called “a writer at Balloon Juice” instead “some blogger at a fifth-rate website.”
First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win.
A Writer At Balloon-Juice
@Laertes:
To turn this around, though, where are the examples of more gentle soft-spoken arguments winning people over? I don’t see it.
A Writer At Balloon-Juice
@Midnight Marauder:
You’re right.
DougW
Andrew Sullivan is a dick. He is such a goon and hack that it’s a wonder that he can be underwritten by anybody. There is no comparison in the vitriol from the right versus the left. Far fewer calls for death squads and unhinged requests for verification of citizenship, vilification of anyone who disagrees with you. Not to mention all the name calling, character assignation and outright lies that our friends on the Right and their media pets spew out of all orifices day after day. Someday, maybe, we’ll return to comity. Not too fucking likely, but still, anything is possible!
D-Chance.
Why not? It nym-shifts every few days to avoid my BJAuthorKill script. I have updated the damn thing a half-dozen times now just for that one troll…